I have a 5.5m old shiloh shepherd. I switched her from the breeder’s food, taste of the wild, to fromm’s large breed puppy – seemingly no problems – she was on it for approx. 2 months. About 3 weeks ago I started feeding her 1 meal a day of raw – which was my plan from the start (and I know not to mix the two in the same meal). Over the past 3 weeks, perhaps a coincidence, she is vomiting frequently – but only after eating the kibble.
The first time she did it, it was a few hours after eating – I thought perhaps she wasn’t feeling good or had had too much excitement. Since then, it has happened a few times a week – usually right after eating the kibble.
If she vomits up her kibble meal (like she did at lunch today) and I give her raw for the meal – no problems.
It is almost as if, once her body experienced the raw, it doesn’t “like” the kibble. Could that be possible? Could it be that the problem is this specific kibble (fromm’s) and I should try another?
I would prefer to keep her on a partial kibble diet, not only because of the cost, but because there will be times she must be boarded and I’m not sure the kennel would be willing to handle a raw diet.
Suggestions? Advice?
HDM
Is that quail from Hare Today?
The longer stool sits in the colon, the more solid it becomes as the moisture is absorbed from it. So frequent poop breaks will result in soft stool. You can not allow him to poop on the off-schedule walks if possible but that might be hard to accomplish. It almost seems to me that they are marking with their poop. They just gotta do it when we’re on the public walking trail in my neighborhood but if I don’t go out there, then they only go 2 times a day in my yard.
I have noticed however that when feeding raw food (either frozen or freeze dried) their poops are always in shape for pickup, no matter when they go. Maybe you can add a few pieces (like Vital Essentials freeze dried nibblets or the new Orijen freeze dried) to his food.
I used the USDA nutrient database and Self Nutrition Data – a few of the ingredients I couldn’t find on these databases (like some of the supplements) and had to do a bit of digging on the internet to find an analysis. Then I just converted everything to a dry matter basis and weighted all the nutrients based on the amount of the ingredient in the recipe. Very tedious and time consuming. If you can find any free software for analyzing recipes let me know!
HDM,
Where did you go to do the nutrient analysis?
Hi Betsy –
I do enjoy the great dane lady’s website and think there is some good information on there, however I don’t agree with her feeding advice for puppies. If her aversion to grain-free and raw foods for large breed puppies was based on some sort of factual research or organized feeding trial I would have more respect for it, but it seems to me it’s solely based on the fact that she’s never tried feeding those foods to her puppies?? I’ve had great lucking feeding high protein grain-free foods to my bloodhound puppies, I’ve just kept calcium levels controlled for the first 8 months.
Hi Idarlin –
I feel that the ideal diet is grain-free/starch free, high in animal-based protein and low in carbohydrates. This is why I personally feed my dogs a raw diet with free of grains and starches (potatoes, legumes, etc.). When it comes to kibble, a starch in some form or another (be it grains, potato, legumes, tapioca, etc.) is necessary to act as a binder. There are many that feel grain-free foods are superior to grain-inclusive foods because grains aren’t a natural part of the canine diet. However, neither are the starches used in grain-free foods – potato, legumes, tapioca, etc. Due to the fact that starch is a necessary evil when it comes to kibble I think the most important thing is to look for a food high in protein with a relatively large percentage of the protein being derived from animal sources. I think people get too caught up in grain-inclusive vs. grain-free and the industry is really playing into this – there are many new grain-free foods hitting the market that are horrible (low protein, loaded with vegetable based protein, etc. etc.) and people are paying big bucks for these foods just because the bag has the new buzzword “grain-free”. There are great grain-free foods and horrible grain-free foods and there are great grain-inclusive foods and horrible grain-inclusive foods. Concerning Innova Large Breed Puppy, it’s not a bad food by any means but it’s lower in protein than anything I’d use or recommend. It has only 24% protein, I wouldn’t use or recommend a kibble with less than 30% protein. I personally feed my crew protein levels in the 45% – 55% range.
If she’s chewing herself it could definitely be a food intolerance, but it could also be something environmental. Grains and common proteins such as chicken and beef are common causes of intolerances so you could certainly try a grain-free food with a more novel protein and see if things clear up.
I would definitely be curious to see what grain inclusive foods you’d recommend, HDM. I still remember being surprised that the Great Dane Lady was strongly opposed to grain free foods for large breed puppies until about 80% of their adult size, due to lack of feeding trials.
Here’s a quote I took from her site:
“I do not recommend as a complete diet for your puppy, any grain free or raw diets, regardless of brand, for large breed growth. Not until they are 8-10 months old or 3/4 of their normal size, just to be on the safe side. No feed trials have been done on large/giant breeds on the grain free or raw diets to date, so I will not recommend them.
We KNOW we can raise them on a quality holistic kibble with a 10% raw component, if you wish, and have no problems, but not a totally raw or grain free diet, please!!”
Has anyone tried Honest Kitchen Invigor and Sparkle and did your pets show improvement with using their products? Looking to try something different and the ingredients look great. Dogs are on a raw diet.
Wrigley is a 6 month old yellow labrador and he is our baby!! After 6 months of taking the little guy to a “traditional” Vet for his stomach issues (we got him at 7 weeks old and he had coccidia from the breeder), we were tired of the constant prescription of steroids, antibiotics and pro-biotics. This little guy has been on some sort of medication since birth. I was fed up with this approach and took him to a holistic vet. She said that his internal terrain was compromised from all the meds, and recommended a RAW diet immediately (along with four supplements- two to aide with the transition). We did a cold turkey switch from his Canidae Grain Free Lamb and Bison to Natures Variety Beef RAW patties. Along with his supplements and a homemade “veggie mash” (spinach, goji berries, cucumbers, carrots and celery) Wrigley loved his new food for the first two days. Now at day three, he won’t eat anything and has been waking up at 4am vomiting a mucus-like bile. I’m reading online that dogs can experience detox symptoms when switching to raw food, especially dogs who have been on steroids or antibiotics (like Wrigley). But he’s never missed a meal and I’m worried about him. My husband wants to take him to the traditional vet, but we know he’ll just go back to antibiotics and want to put him back on dry kibble. After researching RAW diets, I really believe in the nutritional value and have already seen an improvement in my dogs bowls. Has anyone had any experience with “detox” symptoms like this? I’ve been up since 4am with our puppy and crying hysterically! Feeding him brown rice and chicken broth now, hoping he can keep that down.
Thanks for sharing Honeybeesmom, I had a similar experience. 🙂
I’ll have to try Better in the Raw sometime, I’ve checked out their website but haven’t tried it yet.
Just wanted to give my experience on See Spot dinner mix.
I emailed Mr. Steve w/ a question…and within minutes he mailed me back. We mailed each other a few times back and forth – and he always mailed me back within minutes.
I placed my order on June 6th and received it today. Sticker on it is 5/07/13. Guess that’s when it was made?
Also placed an order ( in case anyone is interested) same day to Better in the Raw premix. Complete, balanced, human- grade. Also received today.
Emailed the company and Dana mailed me back within minutes.
Went ahead and made the Better in the raw today…and the doggies loved it.
See spot makes 26 lbs of food for $16.50 free S&H. and better in the raw makes 15lbs of food for $26.50 free S&H.
I have an 11-month old Bouvier who seems to have frequent bouts of diarrhea. He’s been checked by the vet a couple of times and nothing seems wrong with him. Because we’ve been training him with treats, I suspect there’s something there that does not agree with him. The obvious solution is to keep going with experiments, eliminating what could the the possible culprits; however, I was wondering if anyone here has been through the same problem and if they found out the exact treat that should be eliminated from their dog’s diet.
I’ve given my dog all sorts of natural “good brands” (or at least I’ve tried to buy what is deemed to be the best) and I don’t give him rawhide. MIght it be a meat-related issue?
Thanks for any input!
I use Vital Essentials freeze dried nibbletts as treats and food. Be sure to use a recipe book to make sure he is getting all the nutrients he needs. “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown or “Real Foods for Healthy Dogs and Cats” by Becker/Shaw and Lew Olsen has books as well.
Another option to homemade is to use a Premix – where you just add meat or meat and oil. Ex: The Honest Kitchen, Urban Wolf, Dr Harveys, Grandma Lucys. These are easy to use until you get the confidence to make your own!
I had my raw recipe book for a few months before I got the nerve to do it. Now I thinks it’s easy.
“I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements.”
There are naturally occurring probiotics in foods like kefir and yogurt and raw goat milk and tripe (which tripe also has enzymes). It really depends on how healthy or unhealthy your dog’s gut is. Has he eaten a variety of foods so that he produces a variety of natural gut flora? Or has he only eaten a few foods for a long period of time? Also yogurt usually only has a few strains of acidophilus. Some store bought probiotics have over 10 strains which I think is ideal. I have both Mercola and Dr Langers probiotics.
“How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet?”
You can give probiotics and/or digestive enzymes with meals as you are transitioning and even when he is completely on a raw diet. I still feed kibble and raw so I still use these products. You can transition him to a raw diet in various ways. You can slowly introduce raw (like frozen raw medallions or raw bites like Instinct brand has) a couple times a day as treats to see how he does or you can feed one meal of old food and the next meal of raw food. Or every 3rd meal of raw food. Depends on how his stools are! Also raw foods generally have more fat so you must take that into consideration.
“Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?”
A homemade raw diet is good for all breeds and ages (except maybe for breeds prone to pancreatitis) and he can be fed nothing but raw. You can freeze in small batches and pull out what you need for 2 to 3 days worth. For vacation, if you’re taking your dog you might be interested in freeze dried raw as it is shelf stable. Some examples are Stella and Chewy’s, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Vital Essentials, Nutrisca and Primal. I wouldn’t give him marrow bones in the beginning as they are just fat.
Yes, he is an inactive dog. After you start feeding, be sure to weigh and/or monitor “body condition score” so that he is an ideal “shape”. My dogs are heavy but are still of good body condition for their breed. There a several “body condition score” photos you can see online.
Raw food might be much more “real” tasting and satisfying to them, plus, nothing’s better! I don’t blame them being picky about dry food, even the best ingredients turned into a kibble can’t be nearly as awesome as a hunk of meat.
SO. Thanks to HDM, it has come to my attention that making my own raw food for my Louie (10-pound Silky terrier) is actually more cost-effective than buying a high-quality kibble and is obviously much more healthy for my baby.
There are a lot of threads here, obviously, devoted to raw food recipes and diets. Currently my boy is on Earthborn Hollistic Primitive Natural. He’s not doing well on it. I had been feeding him a combination of that and the Earthborn Hollistic tubs (the lamb-based ones), but took those out to see if they were the cause of his upset. I think not. The tubs are expensive and I just have come to the conclusion that I’d rather he be on a raw diet. But, just like everything else, this task of changing his diet (yet again) is so daunting and I am so terrified and essentially stupid and ignorant and I really need you DFA Gods’ help!
I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements. How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet? Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?
My boy is essentially inactive. We go on walks every day and he gets very excited and runs around the house whether we’re coming home for work or from taking the trash out, but then he calms down and takes a nap. I heard 2% of his body weight for an inactive dog is what I should be feeding him. Is this correct? Does he fit the description of an inactive dog? What is the definition of an inactive dog?
There is so much misinformation out there! So many threads to read through, so much confusion! He’s my first dog and I want to do right by him, he deserves the best.
I always do these posts and I’m always very anxious about finding out how best to serve my canine baby because I know how important diet is, and I want him to have those perfect, firm stools and not feel lousy.
I guess I’m just being somewhat lazy to ask for a guide as to how to do this perfectly. I know it’s going to take some time and a lot of effort!
Response #2:
Hi marty0203 –
Calcium and phosphorus levels really only affect the joint health of large and giant breed dogs during the growth phase. By the time a large or giant breed dog reaches two years of age it is either dysplastic or not dysplastic. For all dogs, calcium and phosphorus levels should be in balance with one another (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is really only a concern for those making homemade food, balanced commercial foods will have a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus.
I strongly feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is best for most dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <20% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food I would search for one with no less than 30% protein.
I feel it’s important to feed a variety of foods. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched to a new brand at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding at least 3 quality foods (preferable different brands with different protein sources) and switching every so often. If you can mix in canned or fresh food occasionally this is great too and canned and fresh foods are much more species-appropriate than dry food. Patty had a wonderful suggestion with recommending you check out online retailers. I live in a small area with a limited selection of quality pet products as well and, for this reason, do the majority of my shopping online. In addition to the sites she suggested, some others you may want to check out are wag.com, doggiefood.com and naturalk9supplies.com.
Some supplements that promote joint health are glucosmaine, chondroitin, MSM, esterified fatty acids (such as cetyl myristoleate) and hyaluronic acid. Some who foods supplements that promote joint health are sea cucumber, green lipped mussel, eggshell membrane, shark cartilage and velvet antler. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, gullet and chicken feet) and naturally rich in joint health promoting compounds such as chondroitin. Turmeric, tart cherry, boswellia, yucca, white willow, bromelian and high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.) all help to manage pain and inflammation. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic issues, a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement would be fine for maintenance. If your dogs have any symptoms of pain and inflammation you may want to consider a combination of some of the joint health supplements listed in addition to one of the natural anti-inflammatories.
Hi Marty –
Calcium and phosphorus levels are really only a concern for joint health during the growth phase. Once large/giant breed dogs reach two years of age their joints are fully developed and at this point they’re either dysplastic or not dysplastic. Calcium and phosphorus levels obviously need to be in balance with each other (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is true for all dogs, not just large/giant breeds, and isn’t a concern as long as you’re feeding a balanced commercial food (where balancing C:P ratios come into play are with homemade diets). I personally feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is healthiest and most species-appropriate for healthy dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <15% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food, I would search for one with no less than 30% protein. I also would not limit yourself to only one brand – variety is important. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched brands and protein sources at the end of every bag and I added different canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding a minimum of three foods your dogs can eat (preferably different brands with different protein sources). Patty had a wonderful suggestion with online ordering if selection is limited where you live – some other sites that have a big selection and offer free shipping in addition to the two she posted are Wag.com, Doggiefood.com and NaturalK9Supplies.com. There are several supplements you can give your dogs that help to promote joint health and/or have anti-inflammatory properties. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic conditions or arthritis a basic glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM supplement would be fine to start off with. Some other supplements good for joint maintenance are hyaluronic acid and esterfied fatty acids (like cetyl myristoleate). Some whole food supplements that are beneficial for the joints are eggshell membrane, velvet elk antler, sea cucumber, green lipped mussel and shark cartilage. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, chicken feet and gullets) are very rich in naturally occurring chondroitin. For dogs experiencing pain/arthritis some natural anti-inflammatories include high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.), turmeric, boswellia, tart cherry, yucca, bromelian and white willow. Generally human supplements are cheaper and higher quality than supplements marketed to dogs, adjust the dosage accordingly (a good rule of thumb is a 25 lb. dog would get about 1/4 of the recommended human dose, 1/2 the human dose for a 50 lb. dog, 3/4 the human dose for a 75 lb. dog and full human dose for dogs >100 lbs.). Also – as you may already know – the most important factor to maintaining healthy joints and staving off arthritis in large and giant breed dogs is maintaining a healthy body weight, it’s very important that large/giant breeds don’t become overweight as this adds a lot of stress to the joints.
It looks like my options in this sprawling metropolis are 1. Wellness Core and 2. Infinia. From DFA’s review and ratings the two look pretty comparable. Does anyone have advice either way on these two specific brands for my Adult English Mastiff and Adult Great Dane/Lab?
Thanks!
Bailey eating a turkey neck!
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
Cyndi.
Ok, now how do I get the picture to post in the comment?
Not sure if this will work or not. This isn’t a great picture, but I took a still frame from the video I have of Bailey eating a turkey neck. http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u182/Sidney0805/061113082412.jpg
The chicken feet photos are priceless 🙂 Wish my crew could eat those.
Nice pics Sandy and NectarMom 🙂
I forgot about this thread – I’m going to have to try and get some more pictures of my three.
DieselJunki,
Dogforums(dot)com has a thread just for raw feeding pictures as well. Just search for “raw feeding picture thread” there. There’s a dog eating a goat head and a deer head on page 12.
I’d get the food that the pup was weaned on and then start transitioning a short while later after she gets acclimated to her new environment. Sometimes the stress of going to a new home and a whole new routine is enough to stress them out and give them GI issues and you won’t know if it’s the new food or just stress. Get some probiotics and start her on that to help strengthen her gut/immune system before changing foods. You might also want to get a colostrum supplement. I thought my dogs did fine with regular foods but noticed improvement when I introduced grain free foods and even had more improvement with grain free/potato free foods. They are now odor free/yeast free/ear infection free (which alot of pugs are prone to). I feed anywhere from 30% protein to 60% in kibble and also feed raw, and canned foods and freeze dried foods. Just find a couple foods that work well for her and switch it up every now and then. You can even rotate with every feed.
Patty,
The cow heads were wrapped in white plastic. Couldn’t see inside.
My calf is only 6 months old and his head is pretty big. I think that would be 3 days worth of food for a BIG dog.
Hey Sandy, was it skinned? They didn’t skin my goat head, just froze it and sawed it apart. The half closed eye was freaky.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
theBCnut.
Oh man… I want to get a whole cow head and have Moose eat it on the walk outside. That’ll freak the neighbors in my apartment out! Hahahaha.
With their tiny size, I can see why that would be WWWAAAYYYY too much fat for them.
Sally enjoying her marrow bone. These photos are a bit old and we learned a hard lesson on giving marrow bones.
GiGi watching everyone else eat and wanting theirs….My sweet baby. Shes my baby that is allergic to insect bites and they are deadly to her 🙁
Emma eating her Marrow bone.
Oh it worked…..This is Tootie eating a Marrow bone.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
NectarMom.
I thank you for that Patty! Lol! I have a video of Bailey eating a turkey neck, no pics though. I would have no clue how to post anything.
Nectarmom,
I can load pictures in the forum through photobucket.
Patty,
I saw whole cow head at the Mexican supermarket!
I did all of you a favor and didn’t get pictures of my dogs eating a chunk of goat head with eyeball. That was pretty gross, but they loved it.
Awe nice pictures everyone. I have some but I have no clue how to post them on here??
You can feed raw trachea or chicken feet and perna (green lipped mussel) for natural joint support. I believe omega 3’s are given in a higher dose for joint support. You can also try products like Actiflex 4000 (I give the horse product, 1/4 teaspoon to my small dogs), Wysong’s (human products) Joint Complex and Arthegic. I do like products with eggshell membrane and cetyl-myristoleate (esterified fatty acid).
The oatmeal, rice, and pasta may be feeding the yeast in his ears. That’s why all the different kibbles didn’t work either as they are high in carbs too.
If you are going to home cook, you should invest in a couple books on preparing balanced meals for dogs. Steve Brown has “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” It isn’t even a very big book, but it is packed with good info for understanding how to fix your dogs food. It was written primarily for people interested in feeding raw, but if you want to cook the meat then just make sure you use boneless meat and then add back 800-1000mg of calcium per lbs of meat. Cook the meat about as rare as you can stand. Raw meat is better, but I can understand wanting to kill off any contaminants on the surface.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by theBCnut.
hi guys i am new to the site…debating raw…we have three hunting dogs (lab, english and german pointers ) i have been doing a cooked diet for them to date as my Mr is a hunter and we use game for the dogs. i have cooked because i don’t know the parasite status of the animals. i have been looking through the recipes (thank you everyone for posting tis site is wonderful :)….does any one have info or links to if i want to cook instead of raw? and maybe know how cooked would compare to raw? i do supplement weekly with a raw meal of ground bone to get that in but i am still fairly new to this so need to make sure my babies are getting all they need.
thanks 🙂
If you want to make meat organ grinds a larger portion of your dogs’ diet without balancing the meal with whole foods Sandy recently made me aware of a supplement designed to balanced meat/organ/bone only diets, might be worth checking out.
http://www.youngagainpetfood.com/10browse.asp?category=raws&ProductCode=92200
Raw ground rabbit bones and organs with spirugreen definitely isn’t a balanced diet on its own, but it will probably be fine as long as you continue to feed at least one meal of kibble daily.
Hi lauriesten –
The himalayan salt is to add some sodium – I prefer using himalyan or sea salt over regular table sale as these salts also provide some trace nutrients. Sodium is actually an essential mineral, many people know that it’s harmful in excess but it’s also harmful to be deficient and most homemade diets are rather low in sodium. I order the fruit concentrate capsules from Swanson’s Vitamins sold under “Super Concentrated Multi Fruit Concentrate.” Fresh fruit could definitely be utilized and I occasionally do add fresh fruit, although I’ve found that this supplement provides my dogs with some of the antioxidant benefits of fresh fruit without as much of the carbohydrates and sugars.
