[DogFoodie]

I’m trying to convert a friend at work from Pedigree (yikes!) to a high quality food for her seven year old Cocker Spaniel with allergies and resulting yeast issues.

Her dog had allergy testing completed; and was borderline for the following: duck, rabbit, barley, wheat and cow’s milk. She tested borderline – positive for peanut and sweet potato (white potato was normal).

I’ve been trying to research ingredients for a few days now and have come up with, might potentially be, a couple of contenders; ie: Nature’s Variety, Canine Caviar grain free, EVO, Dr. Tim’s grain free Kinesis to name a few just to start. I wish I could recommend Nature’s Logic, but it contains cheese powder which I presume is out due to the cow’s milk result.

I’d love to hear your suggestions!

[msbabbit]

Safarisam- You must remove the crap food- I do not care what anyone says about “Dogs evolving” to omnivores. Their bodies can not digest grain and its the dog food we have fed our babies that gave them this human disease. As small as your baby is you can feed a raw or cook a rare-ish diet pretty cheap. Remove all kibble and all commercial dog food period. I have almost killed my dog experimenting with dog food.. Bottom line is ALL dog food is crap if it has fillers of any kind and ash.. There should not be things like “crude analyses” in food of any kind.

Again I can not express enough that unless the dog food is pre-packaged raw, there is NO SAFE DOG FOOD on the market for diabetic dogs – its not safe for non- diabetic dogs but thats another thread.

Feel free to contact me if you want.. I have years experience with this issue and I understand what you are feeling right now. Its so confusing and scary..

[Anonymous]

I am by no means a canine nutritionist, merely someone who has put a bit of thought into what I feed mine. My knowledge is not specific to the medical condition and sensitivity of your dog. The guidelines that I found with a superficial online search for cardiac diet were:
– Provide your pet a high-quality natural meat-based diet with at least 25-30% protein (DM basis)
– Make sure your pet LIKES the food so that (s)he consumes enough calories to maintain BMI
– Mild to moderate sodium restriction (severe restriction in advanced cases)
– Supplements: omega 3 fatty acids, taurine, carnitine, B vitamins and Magnesium.
http://www.1800petmeds.com/education/diet-tips-pet-heart-disease-32.htm

I am going to assume that you are looking for a dry kibble based on your previous food choice. I feel that the top of the line dry kibble RIGHT NOW is Orijen. However, it does retail for $80/35lb. As I feed about 400 lb of dog, the budgetary compromise at my house is Merrick Grain Free at roughly $50/35lb.

Prior to Merrick Grain Free, I was feeding Taste of the Wild, but have decided that I prefer Merrick for not entirely nutrition-based reasons. While the protein content is slightly higher and the starch from sweet potato (rather than white), they are reasonably equivalent foods (in nutrition and price). However, Merrick uses all US-sourced ingredients (nothing from China). This is a political issue and safety concern of mine. The larger scale pet recall in 2007 due to melamine contamination was traced to Chinese product, and the more recent Petco recall of stainless steel bowls manufactured with radioactive Cobalt-60 scrap was most likely (while never publicly disclosed) of Chinese origin. Merrick also happens to be manufactured in Texas, where I live. Those variables may not factor into your decision at all, but are important to me.

I could not find a cardiac specific diet offered by Hill’s in their Science Diet or Prescription Diet lines and based my quick comparison on the Adult Advanced Fitness formula. The Advanced Mobility contained more Omega 3’s and Magnesium, but was lower in protein and higher in sodium. Orijen appears to be the best choice, but may not be an option for you dependent on your personal budget. Merrick Grain Free is my compromise, but is based on a few tertiary considerations that may not matter to you. I will be interested to hear what other posters have to contribute. (The following information was retrieved from those companies’ official website product pages and is as vague or detailed as they provided.) The summary comparison is this:

Hill’s Merrick Orijen
Protein 24.2 38 38
Fat 16.4 17 17
Carbohydrate 51.5 ? 25
Sodium 0.32 ? 0.4
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.67 0.4 1.1
Omega-6 Fatty Acids 3.33 4.8 3.0
Taurine (yes) ? 0.35
Carnitine ? ? ?
B Vitamins
B1 – Thiamine (yes) (yes) 0.9 mg/kg or 50 mg/kg?
B2 – Riboflavin ? (yes) 45 mg/kg
B3 – Niacin (yes) (yes) 450 mg/kg
B5 – Pantothenic Acid ? (yes) 50 mg/kg
B6 – Pyridoxine ? (yes) 38 mg/kg
B7 – Biotin ? (yes) 1 mg/kg
B9 – Folic Acid (yes) (yes) 5.2 mg/kg
B12 – Cobalamins (yes) (yes) 50 mg/kg
Magnesium 0.099 ? 0.1

Since the foods that I mentioned are simply those that I am familiar with and not anything that I originally researched with cardiac issues in mind, I would recommend that you use this as a springboard for your own research. Maybe there is a better option in Innova EVO, Artemis, etc. Finish out a chart similar to that above on each of the brands that this website lists as top-tier choices. Feel free to call companies like Merrick or Hill’s to ask about specific quantities of items on their ingredients list, but not in their analysis (like B vitamins).

You might also want to consult with a veterinarian that specializes in cardiac issues regarding dietary recommendations and possible supplements. Maybe it is more cost-effective or bioavailable to top-dress your pets dinner with certain vitamins (L-carnitine perhaps). As wonderful as your veterinarian my be, my experience is that the time constraints of their day-to-day rigamarole does not allow time for general practitioners to be current and thorough on more specific issues. Reading journal articles falls to the wayside. Specialist consultation and personal research are important any time you have a specific veterinary/medical diagnosis of concern. Your vet has to have a working knowledge of EVERYTHING. You can concentrate on the single issue that is of prominent importance for your pet.

Good Luck

[suztzu]

No finicky eater ever turns down canned food. My previous dog a border mix was very finicky to the point of anorexia and would only eat kibble if nothing better turned up. I started to mix in a couple of tablespoons of canned food per meal and it worked great never had an issue from then on. I would always try to give a quality canned food. Wellness core EVO there are so many to choose from it really made a difference. Good luck

[supercoop]

We were blessed to have this wonderful devoted friend share our home and
his life with us. He was always our little boy, tender and gentle towards us
in every way. In body he was a 140 lbs and a serious guardian. He was an
Anatolian Shepard by breed but for us he was our patient angel, forever
in our hearts.

• This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Closed Acct.
• This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Closed Acct.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Nature’s Variety Instinct, Nature’s Logic, Horizon Amicus, EVO Small Bites and Fromm all have small kibbles.

[dogmom2]

Hi there.

I have been reading this forum and pet food reviews for quite some time, and feel like I know some of you quite well.

I am a dog mom, 48, married to a retired carpenter. We have two labs, Hank, yellow and is 10 1/2…and Dewey, black, who is just over 7 now.
Hank has always been itchy, required bathing etc fairly regularly. When he turned about 2 he started getting interdigital cysts on his front feet pretty regularly. ( two or three times a year). We did regular bouts of Cepha ( my vet would sell it to us in 500 pill bottles to use as needed. ) at the age of 9 he started having constant anal gland issues on top of the skin stuff. then about a year ago, out of frustration over an episode withnhis feet that just would not heal…I took him to the local
Holistic vet. We went over everything…diet, vaccines etc. she told me that innova ( the food I had always used) had been bought out and since we did not support P&G…we switched to wellness senior, and Merrill canned. We did laser treatments on his foot, and it finally healed.
Long story short, then the black dog Dewey started regurgitating his food, and bile. After a few months of this we decided to go back to innova, since Dewey tolerated it. Well!! After a few days Hank starts tearing himself up, licking his butt, and his ears flare up. We had not even noticed that he wasn’t doing that while on wellness. So we have two dogs and no food that they can share. So we decided to switch again…this time to Evo, red meat, despite being a P&G product…and they both did fine. Dewey not harfing it up, Hank not tearing himself apart. ( and no sign of foot blowouts).
Around this time I started experiment with raw frozen patties…NV lamb, duck etc. they seems to like it, but I did not like the smell. I started reading more, and bought some nice grass fed heart, tongue, etc at we would give them, along with their kibbles and Merrick. And I read…mostly here, and slowly over the last year we have moved further from kibble and more to primal raw frozen (duck, lamb, venison and rabbit), raw ground tripe, local pastured beef , pre and probiotic and hk preference. I still do Evo red meat once a day most week days, because DH prefers to let me do all the raw feeding.
No foot blow outs in over a year, which is a miracle….both dogs seem to be thriving and I am convinced this is the best for them and us.
We had one blip in the road last winter, when I decided I was going to go prey model and finally gave the boys their first chicken leg raw. Hank ended up sick the next day with a horrible case of gastritis that had him pretty sick for a few weeks. (holy giant vet bill!). I suspect the fat from the skin may have been the culprit…but I am gun shy now. Dewey was fine.
So…that is my introduction!!! Lol.
my question is this….we switched from primal to Darwin’s recently due to cost. Darwin’s product looks lovely, and they seem to like it. I fed the beef first, and then yesterday they had chicken. Today hank has gooey looking stool, not quite diarrhea but mucousy. Dewey’s is fine. We have not had this experience with any of the other foods, and yesterday his stools were fine.
Have any of you used Darwin’s had a similar experience??

[billhill]

Having witnessed quite a few dietary trends in my years, I offer only the advice to keep an open mind. As Dr. Mike says elsewhere on this blog,we have to be careful not to fall into “nutrition-ism.” I would define nutrition-ism as allowing feelings from other segments of life to overly influence how we view nutritional information. Just one example of that would be to insist that dogs should have a vegetarian diet. (Nope, sounds silly to me!)

I’d like to respectfully suggest that having SOME carbohydrates in your dog’s’ diets is not advocating for a high carbohydrate diet. Further, vegetables have starches in them so we’re not just talking about grain Generalizing about all dogs is not helpful when each of us has one or more specific dogs, i.e. real individuals. We humans have different digestive and dietary experiences, right???? I know what my dogs can and cannot digest, and will continue to vary their diets to get them the nutrition they need. I don’t give my dogs grains in significant amounts, but their kibble does have carbs from sweet potatoes. And lots of vitamin A!!

I’ve met several dog owners who feed kibble to one dog and raw to another, based on real individual experience with each critter. Let’s continue to love one another and our dogs, and not get tensed up about dietary concepts.

Pax vobicsum from Richmond, Va, Y’all!

Bill

[Rambo and Fancy]

Thanks for the link.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I see several users are posting about new information that has recently come out about dogs being adapted to handle a high carbohydrate diet. Most of us know that it will only be a matter of time before the big name pet food companies jump all over this and skew the information to push their carbohydrate, gmo and preservative laden dog “food.” I personally have seen the benefits of a high protein, grain-free diet and have been patiently waiting for knowledgeable veterinarians to start setting the record straight. The wait is up – the first article is out! Today, on “Truth About Pet Food”, Susan Thixton published an article written by Dr. Michael Fox. Dr. Fox clarifies the findings for us dog owners and urges us to consider what these new findings really mean (hint: they don’t mean feed your dog a high carbohydrate diet!).

Here’s the link to the Susan Thixton’s article where you’ll also find Dr. Fox’s article.

“Don’t be Misled!”
http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/dont-be-misled

I’ll be keeping a lookout for more articles – I’m sure there will be some out in the near future debunking the misinterpretations that are sure to spew from this study. I’m hoping Dr. Becker will open up about it soon on the Mercola website.

[billhill]

Hi legitposter: I’m willing to accept the comparison if we also acknowledge that dogs have evolved after that separation, since their genomes show that. I don’t object to a super high protein diet, I just think that dogs have begun to be somewhat omnivorous.

Bill

[Anonymous]

Thanks for posting this article. I’ve always suspected today’s dogs thrive on a mix of protein, fat and quality carbs. We keep preaching ‘dogs come from wolves’ but look how much today’s dogs have changed on the outside compared to the wolf. Compare a chihuahua to a wolf. If they have evolved this much on the outside then we can assume they have evolved just as much on the inside.

And if we start to say “well not ALL dogs come straight from wolves, like the chihuahua” then I’ll agree with that, but it enforces my point that we should drop the wolf diet comparison.

[soho]

Thank you HDM

Artemis maximal has lab values for the food and the carbs are 17.8% on a DMB. Here’s the link for the Artemis maximal:

http://www.artemiscompany.com/analysis_maximal_dog.html

NV Instinct chicken has the same numbers for protein, fat and moisture on the GA as Artemis Maximal so unless I can get the actual carb content or the actual Protein, fat, ash and moisture content your 18% carb estimate is probably correct. I mean you were only 2 tenths of a percent off on your Artemis maximal estimate!

When I do the math for the two epigens the carb content is 5.5% estimated. I will email Wysong and see if I can get some actual numbers.

Protein 60% (min)
Fat 11% (min)
Fiber 3.5% (max)
Moisture 12% (max)
Ash 8% (estimate)

This list will be constantly updated but for right now it looks like the kibbles with the lowest carb content are in order from low to high:

Wysong Epigen 60 and 90, 11% carbs (DFA estimate)
Natura Evo Turkey & chicken 12%, red meat 15% and herring 18% carbs (NFE)
Artemis Maximal 17.8% carbs (actual)
Natures Variety Instinct Chicken 18% (HDM & my estimate)

Thanks again HDM!

[amydunn19]

James – While I agree with some of what you say in theory, it doesn’t always hold true in reality. I think Kristi probably would get better results with a long-acting insulin such as R, but without a vet who is well versed in diabetes, it is a dangerous proposition. Comparing diabetes in humans to diabetes in dogs is helpful in many respects as there are similarities, the flaw with that is dogs can’t communicate in terms we can understand until trouble is there. They can’t say they are feeling bad or shaky and short of checking their sugar many times a day, there is no way to know. If you can stay home non-stop with your dog, then great but most people don’t have that luxury. Also, to say diabetes is impossible to control with nph insulin is just wrong. I have done it for five years now and there are many others out there who have – in fact most dogs are maintained on nph. And just because someone uses a long acting insulin doesn’t mean you throw routine out the window. These dogs are best maintained on the same amount of food at the same time every day. As far as low glycemic foods are concerned, I have found just through my personal experience, that my dog’s blood sugar is just consistently lower and better since she is on Nutrisca. She feels better, looks better and it helps with her allergies. I actually tried Evo when she was first diagnosed and her bg was sky-high on it. The one thing I have found is that diabetic dogs react differently to different food. There was a series in the Whole Dog Journal last year about diabetic diets and the interesting part was there were many different case studies of diabetic dogs and almost all of them were on completely different foods. Some were on commercial diets, home cooked, raw, and even prescription diets but the owners all had great success by finding the food that worked for their dog. You can analyze the numbers and ingredients until your face is blue but if the theoretical “best” food doesn’t give you results, then you have to consider how your dog processes insulin and food.
Kristi, I would find an online forum for dogs with Cushings and/or diabetes so you can talk to people who are going through what you are with their dogs. There are tons of knowledgeable people out there who can really tell you about Cushings and diabetes who live it everyday.

[soho]

Hi Krist

A lot of dogs seem to be on only one type of insulin and it is usually a medium acting insulin which has a slope like a long in distance, short in height hill. This type of insulin makes it pretty impossible to control diabetes well. A dog must eat at the same times each day and the same amount of food at each meal.

In humans the best control of blood sugars is achieved using a very long acting insulin like lantus combined with a short acting insulin like humulin R. The short acting insulin is taken about 30 to 45 minutes before meals and the long acting insulin is taken once or twice daily to cover the glucose that is constantly being produced by the liver.

This type of insulin regimen requires more daily injections but it allows for several things that are not possible with a more simple insulin regimen:

1)Meals can be eaten at any time of day or night.
2)Meals don’t always have to be the same size and contain the exact same amount of carbs.
3)If your dog is sick or not eating you don’t have to freak out because you are worried that your dog will have low blood sugar because they didn’t eat.
4) You can adjust one of the insulins without also increasing or decreasing the size and content of meals.
5) Your dog will have much better control of his/her diabetes.

With the more intense insulin regimen meals and liver metabolism are handled separately allowing for a more effective control of blood glucose.

FOODS

I believe that carbs are the enemy of anything (human, dog or otherwise) that has diabetes. I don’t agree with the Glycemic Research Institute that dry foods such as Nutrisca and Orijen are optimal for a dog with diabetes. Nutrisca has an estimated 36% carbs on a dry matter basis. Orijen has 25% carbs as estimated using the NFE (nitrogen free extract) method (this is extremely reliable). I think either % of carbs is waaay too much for a diabetic dog. If there were several foods with let’s say a carb content below 15% then I would look for the one with the lowest glycemic load. But if one food has 35% carbs and another food has 15% carbs it wouldn’t matter to me what the glycemic load of the first food was, I would choose the food with only 15% carbs!!!!

In dry foods (kibbles) the lowest carb content I have found is EVO which ranges from 12 to 18% carbs depending on the variety and Epigen (Thank you Hound Dog Mom) which has only 11% carbs in either of the 2 formulas.

In wet foods maybe you could just add some fresh meat which is in the same family (red, poultry or fish) that you are feeding at any particular meal. You are guaranteed a much higher quality topper if you add your own rather than a canned food.

Good Luck!!!

[billhill]

If (correct me if I’m mistaken) we are using Steve Brown’s paleo diet theory adjusted from wolves to dogs, how do we account for the many lectin-rich diets that support entire civilizations, including corn/rice/beans in Mexico and Central America, countless lentils and rice in India and other parts of Asia? And those people and civilizations have dogs . I am very impressed, by the way, with Steve Brown’s writings. I just don’t think he covers the full range of worthwhile dietary options.

I’m not doubting that the paleo diet can be excellent for many people and for many dogs. I’m noting that a rigid theory doesn’t allow us to take some real experiences into account.

Amylase is not just good for grains, by the way. Many vegetables contain starches.

Bill

[billhill]

I saw that but I’m too cheap to buy it. I believe anyone who wants this can find it at a university library, maybe even the public library or via Interlibrary Loan. I’m going to look for it.

[Julie]

This is the actual article in Nature that is referenced in the other articles posted:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html

To read the entire article you need to buy it for $32.

[billhill]

SOURCES OF BIOTIN, FROM A WEBSITE ON DIET FOR PREGNANT MOTHERS, SURELY APPLICABLE TO DOGS AS WELL:

Swiss Chard – This green plant is a top producer of biotin. It’s also a great part of a healthy salad choice that will provide antioxidants and help balance a diet.
Carrots – Carrots contain a supply of biotin, as well as beta-carotene, which helps with general eye health.
Almonds, Walnuts and Other Nuts – A variety of nuts supply the body with biotin, and are a portable way to get proteins and other nutrition into a diet.
Chicken Eggs – Eggs are a source of biotin, although it’s important to note that eating a diet unusually high in egg whites can actually be a catalyst for a biotin deficiency. That’s because a specific element in the egg whites binds to the element and prevents it from being distributed properly. It’s important to always consider how eggs are added to a diet in order to prevent this kind of vitamin deficiency.
Goat’s Milk and Cow’s Milk – In addition to calcium and other healthy items, milks are also a source of biotin for the body.
Berries and Fruits – Some types of berries, including strawberries and raspberries, can get the body a significant amount of biotin. These fruits also provide antioxidants and health benefits, as part of a natural, whole food approach to eating. Experts recommend buying local and organic when possible.
Halibut – In addition to being “brain food,” this fish also contains large amounts of biotin. Think about adding it as an occasional entre.
Vegetables – Other vegetables like onions, cucumbers and cauliflower all contain biotin, and are healthy ways to fit this vitamin into meals.

[billhill]

Nope, the author is a geneticist not a nutritionist. I’m sure upcoming research will get to all that in time!

Bill

[Rambo and Fancy]

Here is another article on the same topic. Interesting, I’m still going to go grain free.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2013/01/dog-domestication-tied-to-starch.html?ref=hp

[Hound Dog Mom]

That was a really interesting article, however it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Dogs may be able to digest carbohydrates more efficiently than their ancestors, but is there any proof that a dog does better on a high carbohydrate diet versus a low carbohydrate diet with higher levels protein and fat? Is there anything proving that carbohydrates are superior to fat as an energy source for dogs? Dogs may digest carbohydrates fine – but what are the health implications of long term consumption of the lectins, phytates and gluten that can be found in many carbohydrate-rich foods?

[aimee]

Hi billhill,
Thanks for posting this link. In past posts I had said I thought it likely that we have selected for animals that did well on carb based diets, so the wolf and the dog are probably a bit different in that regard. It is nice to see research that fleshed out my hunch.

[billhill]

This seems to build on and go beyond the information on dog evolution and diet in Steve Brown’s books, which are also reflected elsewhere on this blog. While most current thinking acknowledges that most dogs are able to digest and benefit from carbohydrates. this article indicates that dogs have more genes for amylase (enzyme that breaks down starches) than wolves do. This should make the discussions about “paleo” dog diets more colorful and complicated!

LINK TO WASHINGTON POST ARTICLE FOLLOWS:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/learning-to-love-cereal-was-key-to-the-evolution-of-dogs/2013/01/23/30c47500-6510-11e2-85f5-a8a9228e55e7_story.html?hpid=z2

[pugmomsandy]

mspaulypompom,

What food(s) did you try that resulted in bad diarrhea? How much were you feeding as compared to what you were previously feeding? Do you go by calories? Or were you feeding the same amount of previous food as you were the new foods? Has your pom been eating a variety of foods or just mostly one kind most of her life? And what has she been eating and how much? Have you used any probiotics or other digestive aids (canned pumpkin, digestive enzymes, yogurt, raw goat milk)?

I have lap dogs. They do absolutely nothing but follow me around! But they eat foods that have at least 30% protein and moderate fat. This includes kibble, canned, raw, freeze dried and dehydrated. They are able to maintain a steady weight but more importantly, they maintain a good body condition score. Keep in mind pugs are short, cobby, thick dogs, but they still have an abdominal tuck, a tapered waist viewed from above and not much fat pad. They will never look like a greyhound but for pugs they are in great shape. Weight is not everything. In fact mine are overweight to obese if you just look at the number (24 lbs). I’ve recently put some photos in the Dog Food Calculator section while discussing weight loss and body condition with another poster in December. Check them out. They’ve actually gained weight and muscle mass on this type of diet. These are my overweight pugs: (click on the photo)

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u651/pugmomsandy/pictures%20for%20posting/IMG_2852640x539_zps1c019b19.jpg

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u651/pugmomsandy/pictures%20for%20posting/plutoharness2_zps6d5c006c.jpg

I didn’t know about probiotics and digestive enzymes a couple years ago when I went to a grain free high protein food so one of mine took maybe 2 months to transition. Had soft poop but no diarrhea. But now that I’ve been using probiotics and enzymes (periodically still) they are able to eat anything and have formed stool. Their gut has become healthier over time and they are able to eat a variety of foods as they should. I also feed less volume of a mod/high protein food. On their old food, they would’ve needed 1 cup to 1.25 cups but right now they only get 2/3 cup. Overfeeding a mod/high protein food can be another reason for poor stools (that and a not healthy gut) or transitioning too fast. If they have undesirable stool, cut back the amount of new food until they firm up. No need to transtition a dog in a week or 10 days.

Also you can start your pom on a moderate protein grain free diet instead of going high protein off the bat like EVO. I’ll use Nutrisource Heartland Select and Grain Free Lamb Meal as examples. They are 25% and 28% protein and my fosters eat it and only take a week to transition to it cold turkey. No diarrhea, just some soft stools initially. I also give them ground psyllium in the beginning. And I have no idea what the fosters have been eating their entire life before coming to my house.

As far as more energy goes, I like to think of it as more vitality.

[pugmomsandy]

Other than getting a kibble for large breeds, the biggest kibble I’ve come across while finding food for my pugs is Core Reduced Fat and Core Original. It’s sort of triangular last time I used it and would consider it medium sized. I thought it was a little large for the smaller pugs. Although kibble is hard to digest so getting a larger kibble would make digestion more difficult. The smaller surface area and diameter of kibble the easier it is to breakdown. (Although size of kibble is not the only factor in good digestion). I’ve read here that some large breed owners dogs did better with smaller kibble versus large kibble. Specifically someone’s large dog did better digestion-wise on EVO Small Bites (which he accidentally bought) vs the regular size EVO. Same flavor of kibble, just purchased the wrong size. That being said you have the option of adding a probiotic/digestive enzyme to help with digestion if you go with a larger kibble. Most dogs don’t chew so a large kibble might be a choking hazard. If your dog likes to play with food how about putting the small kibble into a treat ball (like an IQ ball or Kong) where he has to work to get it out.

[sisu]

I have a 7 year old who is a spinal walking paraplegic. He has no feeling from the waist down. He can walk due to muscle memory which 10-15% of dogs maintain. There is limited bladder and bowel control. Although the conditions are different our goals in waste management may be the same.

Grain inclusive foods result in big fluffy poop. Grain free with the highest meat content and lowest carbs give the best results when feeding kibble. With a balanced raw diet there is barely any waste. Therefore, the poop is very small, ring finger to little finger size. If Prey Model Raw (PMR) is not an option consider premade raw with the highest meat content. After 5 years of trial and error I have found that EVO Herring and Salmon kibble works very well. As almost a contradiction to my high meat, low carb, low fiber rule Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon also results in small size poop. I suspect it may be due to the digestibility of the menhaden fish meal. Of the two brands EVO poop is smaller. Some companies will send free samples. Use the contact link on their websites to make the request.

I feed as close to 6 am and 6 pm as possible. There are very few treats given. Rewards are enthusiastic chin scratches and lots of happy, verbal praise. By restricting the frequency of food going in I can predict that poop will happen an hour to and hour and a half after each meal. Exercise will cause him to poop sooner rather than later. Anal stimulation either by lightly touching around the outside of the anus or using a KY jelly lubricated thermometer inserted into the rectum with some slight movement will cause him to poop a couple of hours sooner than expected. Although I have rarely used either of these methods they are useful for getting things back on schedule. If used frequently poop on demand becomes the schedule rather than allowing his natural digestion to establish a schedule.

Below is a list of meat protein in various brands of kibble that I have collected from the ‘net. I have not fed these brands. Although I trust the sources of the information I cannot guarantee it.

Dr. Tim’s Momentum 35/25, 96%
Native Level 4, 35/25, 93%
Diamond Extreme Athlete, 93%
Inukshuk 32/32, 95%
Annamet should be 90+%. Specific amt. is not known.
Orijen 82%
Horizon Legacy 80%
Instinct 70%.
Merrick grain free 70%

I am unsure if the constant leg movement your boy has are muscle spasms. If so, daily muscle massage of the legs and along the spine similar to Tellington Touch, gentle repetitive bicycle movement, and flexing the leg joints and toes may help. All is done slowly. Stop if there is a spasm. Resume when the muscles relax. After 2 years of daily massage/flexing therapy Connor has no spasms.

If your dog is being treated by a general vet I would suggest a visit to a veterinary neurologist or neurosurgeon. Not for surgery but to evaluate and treat the current condition. For example, there is medication that can help with muscle spasms. Also, if it is in the budget, professional physical therapy can help with lingering issues. If the carts were not professionally fitted a neurologist or physical therapist may be able to resolve the current problems.

If interested in raw feeding:
http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/
http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf

The Paralysis: Neurological and IVDD forum is very helpful and informative.
http://www.handicappedpet.net/helppets/

I hope some of this helps.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi busterbrown –

I experienced a similar issue with one my dogs. When she was a puppy she was extremely skinny – it seemed like no matter how much I fed her she was just a skeleton. I couldn’t get any weight on her until I switched her to a high fat diet. She eats a grain-free raw diet now of about 45-55% protein, 30%-40% fat and 15-20% carbohydrates. She’s still slim, but I’ve finally got it to where her ribs and hips aren’t protruding too awfully bad. She put on about 8 pounds in the first 4 months I had her on a high fat raw diet. If your dog needs to gain weight and the excess fat doesn’t cause any intestinal distress, I definitely think higher fat is the way to go. W/d is an extremely poor quality food – as are most prescription foods – and while I go to my vet for advice on lots of things, nutrition isn’t one of them. In some rare/extreme cases I think prescription foods can help stabilize a serious medical condition but I don’t personally believe they should ever be a long term solution. With a sensitive stomach, I think all you really need to do is try some foods and find one that doesn’t cause any issues. I’m willing to bet there’s a non-prescription food that will work. I’d recommend something grain-free and limited in ingredients. Nature’s Variety Instinct has some limited ingredient canned foods that are moderately high in fat, EVO has a 95% Meat line that is high fat and very limited in ingredients, ZiwiPeak would be another great choice. I’d also like to mention Abady – they have a granular food line that is excellent for putting on weight (it’s high fat and very calorie-dense with nearly 800 calories per cup) and dogs with sensitive stomachs seem to do well on it. Abady makes some great canned foods too so that may be something you could check out.

[aimee]

I took a look too. It seems AVMA is inviting AKC into a discussion revolving around animal health. I looked at the AKC rules and reg for showing and their section on health seems very limited in scope and outdated. Maybe I just was looking in the wrong location??

The take away I had was the AVMA wants to encourage the clubs hosting the shows to establish health recommendations for the exhibitors based on local disease incidence. They are recommending that all exhibitors dogs be free of parasites but I too didn’t see this as AVMA saying all dogs had to be on heartworm and flea and tick prevention just that they not be carrying. : )

I also took a skim through the AVMA’s Prinicples of Vaccination and it seems if anything AVMA is saying use vaccine judiciously based on risk assessment.

[soho]

Hi HDM and Patty

On the EVO website the carbohydrate percentages are listed like this: Carbohydrates NFE (Max) 12.0 %. NFE stands for nitrogen free extract. Nitrogen free extract is what is left after the moisture, protein, fat, fiber, and minerals have been removed from the food.
So it looks like the carbohydrates listed on EVO”s website are based on a dry matter calculation.

Hi pugmomsandy

Pancreatitis is inflammation and swelling of the pancreas. The causes of pancreatitis in dogs are still not that clear. Certain drugs like corticosteroids increase a dogs chance of getting pancreatitis.. Dogs with Cushing’s disease, diabetes, hypothyroidism, and some forms of hyperlipemia are also at increased risk to develop Pancreatitis. I am by no means an expert on pancreatitis.

So although one of the causes of Pancreatitis may be a diet that is high in fat, the devastation that diabetes can cause to a dog has to be considered very carefully when choosing a diet for the diabetic dog. Choosing a diet based on carbohydrate content as long as the protein levels are adequate is NEVER “misleading” as you stated in your reply. Each dog is different and everything about the dog must be considered whether or not the dog has diabetes. That being said carbohydrates are the single most problematic ingredient for any dog with diabetes.

[Hound Dog Mom]

The carbohydrate content listed on EVO’s website isn’t on a dry matter basis, however the carbohydrate content Dr. Mike has listed is still way off the mark. EVO lists the carbohydrate content as 12% – converting percents to a dry matter basis for kibble doesn’t alter anything significantly as the moisture content of kibble is so low -and converting to dry matter basis only changes it by 1%, it’s 13% carbohydrates (max) on a dry matter basis. 13% is a big difference from the 21% carbohydrates stated on the EVO review. Like Sandy said, Dr. Mike estimates the ash content, so the carbohydrate contents listed on his reviews are most generally not going to be accurate, they give a good idea but without the actual ash content there’s no way of knowing the actual carbohydrate content. If someone really wanted the actual carbohydrate content of a food they’re better off contacting the company directly.

[theBCnut]

My understanding of how Dr. Mike gets his carb figure is this:

Convert the GA to dry matter basis i.e. mathematically remove the moisture content.

Dry matter carbs%= 100%-dry matter protein%-dry matter fat%-dry matter ash%

Evo’s carb figures probably aren’t dry matter and that is why Dr Mike’s numbers are higher.

[soho]

Hi HDM

Thank you again. I just quickly looked at the formulas for epigen and epigen 90. Although they both contain 60% protein the regular epigen contains an undetermined amount of vegetable proteins. The epigen 90 is 90% meat and organs with no apparent vegetable proteins.

They both must have a carbohydrate content lower then even EVO! I will look into them more thoroughly and post what I find.

Thanks again HDM

[soho]

Hi Mike,

From my understanding Mike S uses a formula to estimate the carbohydrate content of foods. If he had access to the exact percentages of every ingredient in the food he could calculate the carb content more accurately.

On the EVO website they list the carbs in the Guaranteed analysis tab and the foods are as follows:
Turkey and Chicken, Carbohydrates 12% Max
Herring and Salmon, Carbohydrates 18% Max
Red Meat, Carbohydrates 15% Max

So the actual carb content of EVO’s dog foods is between 12% and 18%. At that low level the binder (potatoes) would not affect the blood sugar as much as let’s say a food that was 30% carbs and used lentils as a binder. Let’s not forget that the overall carbohydrate content of a food is very important and that the lower the carbs the better the food is going to be for a diabetic dog.

As far as kibbles go these foods are the lowest in carbs that I know of. If anyone knows of other kibbles this low in Carbohydrates please let me know!

Adding fresh foods like meats or fish to any kibble is going to lower the overall carb content and improve the overall quality of the kibble. As for Brother’s kibbles I don’t think I would classify the 35% dry matter basis carbohydrate content as a minimal binder or a low carbohydrate food. Again the carb content of Brother’s kibbles on DFA is just an estimate and anyone who knows the actual carb content please let me know!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Mike P –

You’re right – potato has a high glycemic index. However what you want to look at is glycemic load – glycemic load measures how the food will impact blood sugar based on the amount of the food eaten. Meaning, just because a food contains an ingredient that is high glycemic doesn’t necessarily mean the food as a whole is high glycemic. For example, Orijen contains white potato (a high glycemic ingredient) however, because they use such a small amount of white potato and such a large volume of meat, the food as a whole is low glycemic (certified low glycemic by the glycemic research institute). Looking at EVO’s protein content (without calling the company) I would assume the food is likely low glycemic. Also, not all of EVO’s formulas contain white potato – the weight management formula (which looks like a wonderful option for dogs with diabetes) is white potato free and has 52% protein and 15% fat, the fish formula is white potato free as well. Now on the flip side, you could use a binder with a lower glycemic index than white potato but if the food is a lot lower in protein/contains much less meat and higher in carbs/contains more binder – that food could actually have a greater impact on blood sugar then a food that contains a large volume of meat and a small amount of a high glycemic binder. White potato and tapioca are both high glycemic but if used in a high quality food with a large volume of meat and only minimum amounts of binders, they shouldn’t affect blood sugar significantly. That’s my understanding (James feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).

[Mike P]

Hi James,
I was reading the EVO review and the DMB has the carbs listed at 21% and fat at 24% with potato being the 5th ingredient.Potato offers very little nutritional value according to the review.I thought you made a post that you were very interested in purchasing Brothers Complete that is potato free.I don’t know if potato is all that great for feeding a dog with diabetes, but as a person with limited knowledge about the disease I will defer to one of the DFA experts to comment further.My question is what role do potato’s play in a diabetic dogs diet?I agree that fresh non processed food is a clear cut better choice for any dog .

[soho]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to discuss diet and diabetes. Diabetes is a huge subject to tackle whether it is in regard to people or to pets. I wanted to start the conversation with the question;

“What should I feed my Diabetic dog?”

Without going into the science of Diabetes which would be a very long and complex conversation let’s just discuss what you can do in regards to your dog’s diet to help them live a longer and healthier life.

I have been dealing with my own diabetes for 28 years now and I worked for a Doctor of Osteopathy as a diabetes educator in her Manhattan, NY office. For the last eight years I have counseled many dog guardians on the subject of canine diabetes. I have seen literally thousands of dogs with every kind of health issue through my work with the non profit FreePlay which educates the public on the benefits of off leash recreation areas and with The Pet Wash a local grooming and retail establishment.

The good news is you can really make a difference in your diabetic dog’s well being through their diet. The bad news is diabetes is an insidious disease that can rob your dog of their sight and their life if left unmanaged.

The Canine Ancestral diet which is approximately 55% protein 25 to 30% fat and 15% carbohydrate or on a calorie weighted basis 50% of calories are from protein, 44% from fat, and only 6% from carbohydrate is a good starting point to consider in trying to help the diabetic dog through diet.

The ancestral diet is so low in carbohydrates that it is tailor made for a diabetic dog. You can prepare this type of diet at home using human grade meats and vegetables which we will discuss in another post or you can try to feed your dog a similar diet using commercial foods. I would recommend starting with a balanced raw diet that does not contain bones and lightly cooking it. I would cook it lightly because a lot of diabetic dogs are not in the best health and their ability to deal with the bacteria and microbes that are in the raw food is probably compromised.

Second choice would be a dehydrated food such as The Honest Kitchen. THK is a quality food that uses only human grade ingredients in all of their formulas. The problem with THK is it is lower in protein that what I would suggest. This can be remedied by adding about 20% lightly cooked meat to each of the recipes. I would stick with similar proteins like fowl for the turkey or chicken formulas, fish for the fish formulas and red meat for the beef formulas.

Next would be a canned food that has no grains or other starches like potatoes. I would look for a canned food that was mostly meats with a little vegetables.

Lastly would be kibble. Kibbles require starch to bind the ingredients. They also are the most processed of all the commercial diets available for dogs. They also are dry and nutrient dense. I would suggest that a diabetic dog be fed a high moisture diet like a fresh food or a dehydrated after it is rehydrated or a canned food. Moisture helps ease the burden of the kidneys which are one of the organs that are affected by diabetes.

If you must feed a kibble for whatever reason then I would look to a kibble like EVO which is only 12 percent carbohydrates. The lowest carb highest protein kibble would be the only kibble I would consider feeding a dog with diabetes. Unfortunately once a dog has diabetes the controlling of this disease would be of paramount importance to me and I would no longer be as concerned with considering all of the qualities of an individual dog food and I would mostly focus on feeding a high protein, low carbohydrate and high moisture diet

Questions anyone?

• This topic was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by soho.

[sophia]

Thank you for clearing that up momofmuts! I know cats can be very sensitive so I would of done a lot of research before trying anything. The kitten just got revolution, which apparently works much better than front line, because she hasn’t been itching at all. I have vinegar and water in a spray bottle and have just been spraying them both down when I notice the itching gets bad (only like once a day). I also sprayed myself down, lol, but it seems to be working OK and from what I read online ACV is ok for cats as well-so I’ll stick to that. I lined the ground, bed, and couches with food grade DE today, so hopefully this will clear up soon. I plan on putting it on the dog after I bathe her again this weekend. I’ll leave the kitten alone until I see any itching or fleas on her.

[sophia]

So I took my dog with me to visit my mom in another state. AFTER we showed up she informed me that her pit bull had been itchy for a few days. Sure enough, since we have been home my poor pup has been scratching non stop. The kitten seems fine, she got a dose of revolution a few days prior (and did not come with us). I gave my dog front line the day we go back, waited two days then gave her an oatmeal bath, but she’s sill itchy. She gets front line monthly, but I’ve heard before that it doesn’t always work great. I’ve never had flea problems before, I know they stay in your home even if you clean the dog, just reinfecting your dog. Most answers online say to flea bomb the home and use flea shampoo on the dog, are there any safer/natural alternatives that actually work?

I haven’t seen any fleas, but I read online to scratch her fur on to a wet paper towel, and if the black speckles turn red it’s most likely flea dirt, which has blood in it. I did this and got red speckles, so I am assuming it’s fleas. She has allergies but since we got home her itching has been non stop, even in her sleep. I’m even a little itchy!

Thanks in advance for any help!

[aimee]

Hi Sedlypets,

I’ve owned a number of labs… I’m beginning to think they all have metabolism issues : ) I always try to feed a lower fat food (10-12% as it allows me to feed more volume) and higher protein around 30% plus if possible. I’ve fed Wellness Core reduced fat, Royal Canin weight care, Evo weight management (higher cal/ cup so have to really watch volume) and Purina weight management.

Keeping track of calories is essential. If multiple family members are each giving the dog “just a taste” or “just a few treats” it adds up.

Sometimes it really is best to go with a vet product geared specifically for weight loss. Nutrients in commercial food are tied to energy. When feeding small amounts of energy for weight loss it is possible to short change nutrients. Most dogs I feel can be safely dieted on an OTC food but for some you may need to switch.

[InkedMarie]

Avoderm-their revolving menu only
Back to Basics-all grainfree’s
Brothers Complete-all
California Natural grain free-salmon & peas, kangaroo & lentils, chicken
Canidae Grain Free Pure Land
Canine Caviar-all grainfree’s
DNA-all
Earthborn-Meadow Feast and Great Plains
Evangers grainfree-both
Evo herring & salmon
Evo weight management
Freehand-Energize only
Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance-all
Grandma Mae’s Country Natural-grainfree only
Great Life Pioneer Naturals grain free-all
Great Life-all
Hi-Tek Naturals GF Chicken and Sweet Potato
Horizon Amicus-all
Horizon Legacy-all
Horizon Pulsar-both
I and Love and You Nude Food
Innova Prime-all
LiveFree (by Dogswell)
Nature’s Select grain free-all
Nature’s Variety Instinct-all including raw boost
NRG-Maxim
Nutripe-all
Nutrisca-all grainfree’s
NutriSource grainfree-all except the large breed chicken & large breed lamb
Pet Botanics-Healthy Omega only
Precise grain free-both
Red Moon-high protein chicken, moderate protein chicken only
Sojos grainfree-all
Spring Meadows-all
The Honest Kitchen-Zeal only
Victor grainfree-all
Wellness Core Wild Game
Wysong Epigen-fish formula
Zignature-all
Ziwi Peak-all of the air dried
Orijen
Halo Spot’s Choice (canned)

• This topic was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Added 4 new foods submitted by PugMomSandy
• This topic was modified 11 years, 11 months ago by Mike Sagman. Reason: Added 2 more candidates submitted by PugMomSandy

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shinigamigirl428 –

I have three bloodhounds myself.

My first question is, is the dog underweight? If the dog is not underweight ignore this behavior. This is typical for a bloodhound and your family member shouldn’t feel bad or like the dog is being deprived. Bloodhounds are chowhounds and their number one focus in life is food – their entire day revolves around mealtime and when their next meal will be. They have no appetite regulation and will eat until they burst. They’re also noted for eating anything and everything, especially when puppies. They can be a danger to themselves when not supervised, they can get into poisonous things or items that will cause intestinal obstruction. My older female (now 2) ate an ENTIRE 5 pound bag of birdseed when she was a puppy – it was left out and she ripped into it. She was pooping out sunflower seeds all day. This is the type of thing you deal with when you own a bloodhound.

Earthborn isn’t a bad food by any means. I do feel Orijen is slightly better, but if Earthborn is what your family member can afford there’s no reason to feel bad about feeding it. It’s a quality food. I feed my three homemade raw and they do seem to be a little more satisfied on this than when they weren’t fed raw. You can try adding in some pumpkin or other veggies to the food to make her feel more satisfied but I can almost assure you that it won’t stop the behavior. This is normal behavior for a bloodhound and nothing to be alarmed about.

[BryanV21]

Thanks for pointing that out… seriously. It’s interesting to read things like that. However, since I can find studies to prove anything, whether they are contradictory or not, I don’t put a whole lot of stock in them. Just another example of science failing or confusing people. Which is why I’m an advocate of the ancestral or evolutionary diet.

Besides, it’s not as if a dog owner doesn’t need to practice good oral hygiene anyway. And if an owner is doing that, then it doesn’t matter. The more important thing is which food is best, not which is dry or wet.

[Devilbrad]

I’ll try some of these tips and more tough love. My hound is so picky, but she does seem to prefer Merrick wet food and her second choice is EVO 95. I can’t get her to touch dry food anymore. And I almost always have to put shredded cheese on the food just to get her started. She will eat the living day lights out of human food and anything she finds on our walks though, LOL I’m tempted to cook meals that her and I can share. I’m sure if it came off the stove and was what I was eating she would gobble it up. Now, don’t get me wrong, she does eat and is nice and healthy, not being neglected, that’s for sure!