Sojos Complete (Freeze-Dried)

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Rating: ★★★★☆

Sojos Complete Dog Food receives the Advisor’s second-highest tier rating of 4 stars.

The Sojos Complete product line includes two freeze dried dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Sojos Complete Beef Recipe (3.5 stars)
  • Sojos Complete Turkey Recipe (4 stars)

Sojos Complete Turkey Recipe was selected to represent both products in the line for this review.

Sojos Complete Turkey Recipe

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 29% | Fat = 13% | Carbs = 50%

Ingredients: Turkey, sweet potato, whole egg, broccoli, celery, apples, flax meal, pecans, tricalcium phosphate, pumpkin, cranberries, basil, dried alfalfa, ginger root, dried kelp, zinc sulfate, vitamin E acetate, vitamin D3, vitamin A palmitate

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 8.4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis26%12%NA
Dry Matter Basis29%13%50%
Calorie Weighted Basis26%29%45%

The first ingredient in this dog food is turkey. Turkey is considered “the clean combination of flesh and skin… derived from the parts or whole carcasses of turkey”.1

Turkey is naturally rich in the ten essential amino acids required by a dog to sustain life.

The second ingredient is sweet potato. Sweet potatoes are a gluten-free source of complex carbohydrates in a dog food. They are naturally rich in dietary fiber and beta carotene.

The third ingredient is whole eggs. Eggs are easy to digest and have an exceptionally high biological value.

The fourth ingredient includes broccoli. Broccoli is a healthy green vegetable and a member of the kale family. It’s notably rich in vitamin C and fiber and numerous other nutrients.

Like other cruciferous vegetables, broccoli is believed to provide potent anti-cancer benefits.

The fifth ingredient is celery. Although raw celery can be very high in water, it can still contribute a notable amount of dietary fiber as well as other healthy nutrients.

The sixth ingredient includes apple, a nutrient-rich fruit that’s also high in fiber.

The seventh ingredient includes flaxseed meal, one of the best plant-based sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Flax meal is particularly rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With two notable exceptions

First, although dried alfalfa is high in protein (18%) and fiber, it’s uncommon to see it used in a dog food. This hay-family ingredient is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

And lastly, the vitamins and minerals added to this product are not detailed sufficiently here to permit us to judge their quality, but we’re reassured to find a detailed list of naturally present nutrients on the company’s website.

Sojos Complete Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Sojos Complete looks like an above-average dry dog food.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 29%, a fat level of 13% and estimated carbohydrates of about 50%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 27% and a mean fat level of 13%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 52% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 50%.

Near-average protein. Below-average fat. And above-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

When you consider the protein-boosting effect of the flaxseed meal and dried alfalfa, this looks like the profile of a dry product containing a moderate amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Sojos Complete is a plant-based dry dog food using a moderate amount of freeze dried raw turkey or beef as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 4 stars.

Recommended.

Please note some products may have been given higher or lower ratings based upon our estimate of their total meat content.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every report is directly dependent upon the quality of that data.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

02/27/2011 Original review
03/29/2014 Last Update

  1. Adapted by the Dog Food Advisor and based upon the official definition for chicken published by the Association of American Feed Control Officials, Official Publication, 2008 Edition
  • Dog_Obsessed

    Okay, thanks. I will use the contact page in the future.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Thanks for the tip.

    However, since I’m not always monitoring every one of the hundreds of comments we get each week, it’s better to visit the Contact Us page.

    Then, look for the question that asks, “How can I report a recipe change and request an update.”

    Click that link and you’ll find a very short form to submit that allows us to keep track of the hundreds of recipe changes we get monthly.

    Thanks again for the tip.

  • Dog_Obsessed

    Hey Dr. Mike! Sojos now has a lamb dog food in their complete recipe: https://www.sojos.com/products/dog-food/sojos-lamb-complete-dog-food

  • nikki

    Can someone tell me how many cups are in an 8lb bag of Sojo’s complete?

  • aimee

    Exactly what procedure did Sojo’s use to determine the feeding recommendations. It is interesting that your feeding guidelines recommend the same amount of food over a wide weight range and across all products.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I assumed the pricing on your website would be cheapest. So using the price from Chewy.com:

    $19.22/kg

    Which at 3,523 kcal/kg puts it at $5.46 per day. A little more reasonable but still nearly 5X as much as the average most grain-free kibbles.

    The reason your cost to feed comparison is inaccurate is because dogs (or any living creature for that matters) do not require a certain volume (# of cups) of food – they require a certain amount of energy (or calories). Different foods have different amounts of energy so it is unfair to compare foods based on volume – they must be compared based on energy. There is also no standard basis for feeding charts on a bag so it’s like comparing apples to oranges. Due to the differing energy densities among foods the only accurate way to compare the cost of feeding is on a cost per calorie basis.

  • theBCnut

    $19.27 per kg from Chewy. Still a lot higher than other foods.

  • Sojos

    Correct, it actually costs quite a bit more to order Sojos from the Sojos website than it would to order from another online retailer or to purchase it from a brick & mortar store.

  • theBCnut

    We weren’t talking about level of health. A person would have to eat ten apples to get the equivalent calories. If they could choose the right number of calories in potato chips or an equivalent weight in apples, the potato chip eated would be alive, but unhealthy. The apple eater would die of starvation. Your example would have made some sense if you had brought up that 100 calories of apple has some of those calories as unusable because they are actually fiber, but almost 100% of the potato chip calories are usable, therefore 100 calories of one thing is not the same as 100 calories of another, but alas, you didn’t go there. And your comparison with other foods is still completely offbase.

  • Crazy4cats

    Are you saying that it is more expensive to order from the Sojos site than Chewy? I assumed she was giving Sojos a break by using their own prices.

  • Sojos

    A year ago, no there were no Chinese-sourced ingredients in Sojos. I would guess this letter from Sojos was written at least 2 years ago. There have also been other changes to Sojos since this review was originally written. Meat is now the #1 ingredient in Sojos Complete, and Sojos is also now 100% natural (not “Natural with added vitamins and minerals”) using only naturally-sourced vitamins.

  • Sojos

    I would respectfully disagree with this. Dog food companies determine the amounts to feed their food based on extensive history with actually feeding their food to dog. Calories can be misleading for a couple of reasons. 1) The calories amount required by AAFCO to be printed on dog food packaging are the calculated calories, not the actual calories. Calculated calories are based on a theoretical formula ME (kcal/kg) = 10 x ((3.5 x Crude Protein) + (8.5 x Crude Fat) + (3.5 x (100 – (Crude Protein + Crude Fat + Crude Fiber + Moisture + Ash)). Actual measured calories (which are not printed on dog food packaging) are a more accurate count of calories. 2) It’s important to ask “calories of what?” when comparing calories. For example, an apple contains approximately 50 calories per 100 grams, and potato chips contain 500 calories per 100 grams. But obviously the 100 grams of apple will sustain a healthy individual more so than 100 grams of potato chips.

  • Sojos

    The chart was made using the instructions on the packaging from Sojos and competing premium grain-free products for how much to feed a 30 lb. average activity level dog. In general, dog food feeding charts are not based on calories. They are based on the number of cups to feed for the corresponding weight of your dog (with activity level taken into account). Also, if you’re going to use the prices for these other products on Chewy.com to compare, I would also use the price for Sojos on Chewy.com so you’re comparing apples to apples.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    To debunk your chart I’ve done my own analysis of 3 grain-free kibbles that have received a 5 star rating using prices found on the online retailer Chewy.com. For Sojo’s the retail price listed on your website was used. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll assume we’re feeding a dog that requires 1,000 kcal. per day.

    Dr. Tim’s Grain-Free Kinesis:
    3570 kcal. per kg
    $3.96 per kg.
    Cost to feed per day: $1.11

    Nature’s Variety Instinct Chicken Formula:
    3931 kcal. per kg.
    $4.78 per kg.
    Cost to feed per day: $1.22

    Wellness CORE Grain-Free Original:
    3660 kcal. per kg
    $4.48 per kg.
    Cost to feed per day: $1.22

    Sojo’s Beef
    3523 kcal. per kg
    $26. 34 per kg.
    Cost to feed per day: $7.40 per day

    As you can see, Sojo’s costs over 6X as much to feed than most grain-free 5 star kibbles. Your graphic analysis is extremely misleading to consumers.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Sojo’s contains about 1 C. more food per pound than most 5 star kibbles, but it also contains about 50-100 less calories per cup than most 5 star kibbles. Meaning, while there may be slightly more food the dog is going to require more food in order to meet their energy requirements.

    Kibbles have ~4 C. per pound. Take an average 5 star kibble that costs $60 for a 30 lb. bag with 120 cups in the bag and that’s $0.50 per cup. Take an 8 lb. bag of Sojo’s which retails for $94.90 per 8 lbs. or 32 cups and that’s $2.96 per cup. Once you take into consideration that the dog will need to eat more Sojo’s, you can expect to be paying 7-8X as much to feed Sojo’s as you would to feed a 5 star kibble.

  • Crazy4cats

    I definitely agree!

  • theBCnut

    Were they using ingredients from China a year ago when this was posted?

  • theBCnut

    Figuring cost per unit of calories makes much more sense.

  • Sojos

    Again, Sojos uses no ingredients sourced from Chinese suppliers.

  • Sojos

    Just to clear up this issue, at one time Sojos sourced exotic ingredients from high-quality human-grade suppliers located in Asia. But those suppliers have not been used in a very long time. This letter from the company is old. Sojos uses no ingredients sourced from Chinese suppliers.

  • Sojos

    Was hoping to jump in and clear up a few misconceptions. As far as price, it’s also important to note how many cups per lb. a food contains and how much you feed per day. This way you can calculate the price to feed per day. Based on prices we found at a local pet store, Sojos costs approximately $2.25 per lb. per day for an average 30 lb. dog. This stacks up very well against other premium grain-free dog foods.

  • Savannah G

    I have been feeding Sojo’s Original Style Food Mix w/ whole ground chicken we obtain from the local meat market to my lab mix for the past 6 months. We LOVE it! Cost isn’t much more than kibble (about $2/day to feed him on Sojo’s, including the cost of the chicken!!) His coat is so soft, he has tons of energy & best of all no more stinky farts ;) I would recommend this product to anyone.

  • Papillongurl88

    I personally feed my papillon a diet of orijen adult kibbles and sojos complete turkey. He’s 13 lbs (he’s taller than breed standard) and has 1/4 C orijen for breakfast and 1/4 C sojos for dinner. He loves both and eats every bite as soon as it’s in the bowl. He never did that with any dog food before. He’s also become very trim and has the softest and most brilliant white fur. Everyone compliments his fur everywhere we go. I think the “best” diet depends a lot on your actual dog. Orijen has a little too high protein for his system and the Sojos a little too low so doing the combo works perfect for him. He also likes having both wet and dry meals. I would love to do more of a raw/homemade diet, but at this time I don’t really have the time for that. Good luck finding your perfect fit!

  • Ron

    One possible concern on using Sojos and dogs with Kidney problems.
    I was reading from another site that since they changed to Tri calcium Phosphate as the calcium source it ups the phosphorus levels by quite a bit. Just a heads up to do some research if that is the case.

  • Shawna

    Yeah, the yolk can be pretty high in fat for sure. Per nutrition data website one cup or whole eggs has 24grams of fat. However if giving just the whites, where most of the protein is, you would be adding zero fat. Of course one cup is too much for a small breed dog, just using that amount for demonstration purposes.

    Data on whole egg http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2

    Data on whites only http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/112/2

  • Lynda L

    Just to let you know, eggs in particular are what the vet blamed my dogs pancreaitis on. And I had fed eggs to my larger dogs all of my life. She’s doing superb on Sojo though I’ll certainly keep my eye on all 4 of them for any changes. Thanks anyway for the input.

  • Shawna

    LOL — I have eight toy and small breed dogs. My smallest is also four pounds (a 16 year old Chihuahua) and my largest is about 12 pounds. I prefer a much higher protein for my pups. That said, Sojo’s is a quality food even if it doesn’t have enough protein for my likes… :)

    IF you wanted to, you could always increase the protein just a bit without adding much if any fat. A lightly cooked egg white, if they tolerate eggs, as just one example.

  • Lynda L

    Oh good. I didn’t piss someone off. At least not yet.

  • Crazy4cats

    I think any of the 3 – 5 star foods can be 5 stars for you if they work that well. Congrats!

  • Lynda L

    I have 4 small dogs (after a lifetime of owning large dogs), the smallest of which is 4 pounds, the largest about 11. I started them on several of the 4 star premium foods listed above because there were too many loose stools and diarrhea going on — I wasn’t sure if this was a small-excitable-dog syndrome or the wrong food. It wasn’t until I switched all 4 to Sojo’s original (a 3 star) that I got impressive results: no more vomiting, diarrhea, loose stools or coughing up foamy bile. They all love the food, are at idea weights and there has been ZERO vomiting or diarrhea for nearly a year. I find it interesting that there is a concern about whether or not there is adequate animal based protein in this food (it’s grain free) because, though everyone agrees all dogs need protein, it would appear that some … like my small ones, even though they are young, may need less. They are certainly thriving on Sojo’s though I add nothing to it. I admit to being wary of adding anything on a regular basis as my smallest dog (who is, ironically the most finicky) came down with pancreititis before I put her on the freeze-dried food. It’s certainly worth a try for its convenience, especially if, like me, you travel with your dog or dog(s) which means all I need is a small baggie of freeze dried, a small bowl and a bottled water.

  • sakurasvillage

    try adding raw beef or cooked chicken

  • sakurasvillage

    My 55 pound dog poops once a day in the afternoon and its not a lot either :). Higher quality of food equals less poop equals less to clean up equals more my dog keeps the nutrients inside her body.

    I use Sojo and THK as a base and add my own stuff

    For example. My 55 pound dog eats 3 cups of food per day (1 1/2 cup in the AM & 1 1/2 cup in the PM)

    Her Sojo Menu AM & PM
    Prep Time: 2 minutes
    Serving: 1 serving; 1 1/2 cup (give or take)

    1/2 cup of Beef or Turkey Sojo
    3/4 cup of raw meat, cooked fish or cooked poultry
    1/4 cup of pureed fresh food such as: fresh fruits, veggies, sweet potato, mixed cooked beans, or pumpkin
    2 drops of Vitamin E
    spoonful of Kefir non-flavor yogurt or any live probiatic yogurt
    spoonful of flaxseed or germ wheat
    couple pieces of alfafa sprouts
    1 rosemary leaf
    1 parsley leaf

    I usually make a 3 day batch because it is easier.

    Every other day I give her: one medium raw bone such as raw chicken back, raw lamb bone, raw rib bone, raw chicken drumsticks. Anything associated with raw bones. They need more calcium. Also, two to three times a week, I give her raw beef hearts, livers and kidneys. They need iron!

    So, I do recommend Sojo or THK if you are adding your won fresh ingredients.

    It is remarkable how her health changed after we started to give Sojo or THK. We use to feed my dog, Sakura, kibble diet. She was shedding like crazy, pooping two-three times a day, and her poop smelled sooo bad. Her poop was soft too. She was having small bald spots on her chest area and she was chewing on her paws.

    i knew it was something with her food. After research and after more research… we found Sojo and THK. All these problems above went away within 3-4 weeks. For a 55 lb dog, she poops like a small dog lol and once a day too! Her poop is a perfect color (chocolate brown), slightly firm, and it is a shape of a log. That’s what you want to look for.

    We do recommend this food. Even though it is considered 3.5 stars, if you add your own ingredients it is 5 stars!!!!

    Sakura’s fan page is

    http://www.facebook.com/sakurasvillage

  • sakurasvillage

    Hi,

    I’m reading all these comments regarding Sojo vs THK. I use both and RECOMMEND IT!

    I add raw beef, raw lamb, raw venison, raw rabbit, fish, salmon, mackeral, cooked chicken or turkey to all her meals. I mostly use the Sojo Beef or Turkey Dehydrated Dog Food and add a half a cup of more raw beef, lamb or any combination above to her meal. I add more meats or poultry to Sojo because the first ingredient is Sweet Potato, and second is USDA beef or Turkey

    My 55 pound dog poops once a day in the afternoon and its not a lot either :). Higher quality of food equals less poop equals less to clean up equals more my dog keeps the nutrients inside her body.

    I use Sojo and THK as a base and add my own stuff

    For example. My 55 pound dog eats 3 cups of food per day (1 1/2 cup in the AM & 1 1/2 cup in the PM)

    Her Sojo Menu AM & PM
    Prep Time: 2 minutes
    Serving: 1 serving; 1 1/2 cup (give or take)

    1/2 cup of Beef or Turkey Sojo
    3/4 cup of raw meat, cooked fish or cooked poultry
    1/4 cup of pureed fresh food such as: fresh fruits, veggies, sweet potato, mixed cooked beans, or pumpkin
    2 drops of Vitamin E
    spoonful of Kefir non-flavor yogurt or any live probiatic yogurt
    spoonful of flaxseed or germ wheat
    couple pieces of alfafa sprouts
    1 rosemary leaf
    1 parsley leaf

    I usually make a 3 day batch because it is easier.

    Every other day I give her: one medium raw bone such as raw chicken back, raw lamb bone, raw rib bone, raw chicken drumsticks. Anything associated with raw bones. They need more calcium. Also, two to three times a week, I give her raw beef hearts, livers and kidneys. They need iron!

    So, I do recommend Sojo or THK if you are adding your won fresh ingredients.

    It is remarkable how her health changed after we started to give Sojo or THK. We use to feed my dog, Sakura, kibble diet. She was shedding like crazy, pooping two-three times a day, and her poop smelled sooo bad. Her poop was soft too. She was having small bald spots on her chest area and she was chewing on her paws.

    i knew it was something with her food. After research and after more research… we found Sojo and THK. All these problems above went away within 3-4 weeks. For a 55 lb dog, she poops like a small dog lol and once a day too! Her poop is a perfect color (chocolate brown), slightly firm, and it is a shape of a log. That’s what you want to look for.

    We do recommend this food. Even though it is considered 3.5 stars, if you add your own ingredients it is 5 stars!!!!

    Sakura’s fan page is
    http://www.facebook.com/sakurasvillage

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Chewy.com: 8 lb. bag of Sojo’s is $63.50. $63.50/8 = $7.94 per lb, I don’t think there’s anything off with my math. Yes – the 8 lbs. re-hydrates to 40 lbs. but it’s still 8 lbs. of food. When you add water you’re not adding any additional calories or nutrients so you can’t base the cost calculation on the weight with water added. If I bought 1 lb. of ground beef and paid $5 and added 2 C. of water to it that wouldn’t mean it only cost me $2.50 per pound. Have you thought of checking out Grandma Lucy’s? It’s a similar type of food however it’s much better quality and and also costs less. The Honest Kitchen is another great dehydrated food – it’s more expensive than Grandma Lucy’s (probably more similar in price to Sojo’s) but a much better product than Sojo’s as well. $7.94/lb. is a rip off for a 3.5 star food with only 23% protein.

  • Mark

    $8 per lb.? I think your math is a little off. An 8 lb. bag, once rehydrated makes 40 lbs. of food which comes to around $1.58 per/lb. ($63.50 on Amazon). My little guy has had great success on this food and his vet always comments on how great he looks. Great food with no fillers. Thanks Sojos!

  • PapMama

    We use Sojo’s dehydrated veggies (green bag) and add our own turkey meat. We do NOT use the Complete and never have. Our Papillons love the combination we feed them.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I use it but add some protein. Then I bought Sojo’s cat which has 30% protein and still add some meat sometimes. The cat version is a finer grind, no large chunks. You can add some high protein canned food to it to offer some variety and a slightly higher protein amount if you wanted. Sometimes I also mix it with The Honest Kitchen. And sometimes when I’m lazy, I don’t put anything in except some high protein kibble.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Penny –

    I wouldn’t feed Sojo’s due to the low levels of protein and fat. It also retails at around $8 per pound which, in my opinion, is way too much to pay for a 3 star food. I have used both of the Sojo’s complete foods and also the grain-free pre-mix and have noticed that they don’t digest very well either. Most dehdyrated foods I’ve used have seemed to have poor digestibility, however Sojo’s was one of the worst. I’d recommend checking out Grandma Lucy’s or The Honest Kitchen.

  • Penny Pinscher

    So many debates / arguments happening here. I’m just wanting to know, for the people that use or have tried SOJOs . . . Do you or Don’t you recommend your dog to diet on this? My miniature pinscher LOVES the food. I mean licks the bowl clean EVERYTIME. I’m just wondering if this is a good enough food to feed her since there isn’t much meat.

  • Strey

    I got a few free samples of sojos today…My dog wouldn’t even go near it haha and shes not usually picky either. My older dog loved it tho :)

  • Cindy

    Good grief! I did not say it the way you make it sound like, and I did not mean it like you construe my sentence out of context. If you want to improve the situation and clarify a misunderstanding, simply correct people in a nice way, no need to be a slave driver! You made several mistakes on your postings the past 24 hours alone!

  • InkedMarie

    You’re the one that typed several, that’d be your job to correct it, not mine. You are the one who said, above, that you never said something…when I point out, by quoting, as you asked me too, you don’t like it. How am I taking it out of context? whomever else is following, did I do that? She’s saying she never said that, asked me to quote her, so I did. I’m done with you.

  • Cindy

    HI InkedMary, I stated multiple times on this thread sojos that THK has had ‘a recall’, not multiple. Now you found something I innocently posted ones on another thread and found 1 sentence being a bit vague saying: “Some people seem to think it is normal to have recalls, Natura is having recalls, The Honest Kitchen, Diamond had several…”

    The fact that you picked this out of context and make this claims tells me that someone is splitting hairs.

    Obviously, I did NOT say that THK has had ‘several recalls’, something was said within a sentence and it was simply innocently said and a bit unclear.

    How about adding a comment next time on the specific thread stating: “Hey, just wanted to clarify that THK had only 1 recall, as it could be understood that there were several and the statement is a bit unclear…”

    Good grief!

  • InkedMarie

    Are there other Cindy’s posting negative comments about THK over the last few days? If not, then you said this (on the Natura recall thread, posted two days ago):

    “Fromm is probably one of the best solid food companies out there. They do in house lab testing, and testing by a third party as well. They have their own plant and can easily control what goes into their food. They only buy human grade ingredients (if you can call it that way). They inspect the food very carefully and if it is not good enough for them they send it back. Some people seem to think it is normal to have recalls, Natura is having recalls, The Honest Kitchen, Diamond had several…but in reality it is lack of quality control. It is always the same story; they don’t do enough lab testing, they rely on third parties and don’t check for themselves. It is like you are having your own company make your own food, you know your supplier, all day long you inspect the food…these companies don’t. They go by word of mouth, third party concept, they hire people but don’t double check, not oversight, don’t do enough lab testing, don’t buy quality foods, whatever it is it is a reflection of how the company operates. I would not want to buy food by a company that has so many recalls. You are taking a chance. There might be good batches, but you are taking a chance.”

    So, unless it’s a different Cindy posting that, then it’s you. If it wasn’t you, then I again apologize because I have no way to tell who is who. If that is NOT you, maybe you should change your name here, put something with the Cindy, so we know it’s you. I have InkedMarie, not Mary, by the way, so I’m not confused with a couple other Marie’s who have posted here. So, anyway, if that is you who posted that above, then yes you did say they’ve had several recalls. I did not quote you because I can’t figure out how the heck to quote on my iPad!
    As far as the rest of your post, I honestly don’t care about it., that stuff I’m not taking issue with you about, I haven’t even read what you or anyone else has posted about their ingredients. I take exception to saying they use china currently and that they’ve had more than one recall. I’m happy with THK, they’re one of only two dog foods legally allowed to call themselves human grade, the other being Weruva.

  • Cindy

    InkedMary I appreciate your apology, but again you are accusing me of things I never said like that the Honest Kitchen had a few recalls; there you are doing it again; I’m using your words: ‘spreading rumors’, ‘not telling the truth'; I stated the fact that they have had a recall recently which is usually a quality control issue.

    Next time, please quote my exact words, instead of construing my sentences or misrepresenting what I’m actually saying; next time please when you don’t believe something and say it is ‘invalid’ prove to me WHY and list Sources, References etc. to substantiate your claims. I agree with you; we must not speculate and make false claims.

    What The Honest Kitchen should do now is more the “Walking” and less the “Talking”; I would like to see these ‘finest ingredients’ that they ‘buy organic whenever possible’, the ‘toxins free products’-in order to do so you need to actually DO it, and not just use these empty words as a sales pitch;

    in reality most or their ingredients are NOT organic, not even the bananas which are easy to get. Quality product-Apples from Chile? Basically all vegetables are from a poor country such as Poland and not the USA? The rest are other Third World countries, Asia, or other unregulated countries companies I use don’t’ buy from because (their words) ‘they have quality issues’. THK ‘verify’ that the products would be ‘toxins’ free without doing the lab testing for it but based on some distributor’s statements? How is this possible that commercial non organic produce from all over the world would be toxins free? It is untruthful to say that. No In-House lab testing; talking to people over the phone and hoping they ship to a Third-party factory a ‘quality’ product without you seeing it? This is not logical or even possible the way it is claimed. The list goes on.

    If you would tell me those things, inconsistencies and conduct about the companies I use, I would not buy their products again. I like companies they are honest and actually ‘buy the finest ingredients and whenever possible organic’.
    “Don’t shoot the messenger!”

  • InkedMarie

    This is for Cindy….I am apologizing for something I said last night. I said that the rep from THK told me that they’ve never sourced from China. That is not true, you are correct, they have (I saw the email from Kat that you posted). Well, I was right that that is what the rep told me, he did tell me that but he was wrong. I just spoke to Kat and told her that she needed to tell him that he cannot tell customers something like that when it is false. I told her that if he does not know the answer to a question, you tell the customer “I don’t know but I’ll find out”. Apparently he’s only been there not even a year but that’s no excuse. I’m sorry I said that you were wrong about that but it is what I was told by THK.
    I am not sorry however about what I’ve said to you in general, that you need to find out if the information you think is true in fact is true. You did say that they have had a few recalls and that is completely untrue. I asked Kat that to make sure that what the other rep told me was true and it is: the only recall they’ve had is from this past February with the parsley.
    You also started out talking about THK saying they currently source from China which is not true. Yes, you retracted your statement but that is my point: it hasn’t been true for a few years so you should have checked with THK, not Wiki or anywhere else, before posting. I should have done the same thing in regards to them sourcing from China in the past. IMO, where a company sources now is more important than the past but thats jmo, Just please, be sure what you’re posting before you post it. People read here and may not come back to see the retraction. I will do the same thing.
    Again, my apologies for saying you were wrong about their past sourcing.

  • Cindy

    I disagree. The companies I buy food from refuse to purchase from all of these different poor, Third World, unregulated countries even though it would lower their cost, but they rather pay more as they say there is a quality and safety issue with these products.
    .
    .It is not just the fact that they DID purchase from China and then denied it is an issue, it is an issue how they conduct themselves as of this date, and based on that the person was falsely accusing others of spreading rumors or false information while it is exactly what they did.

    I have no issues moving on, but I don’t like to be lied to and falsely accused of things. Obviously it is THK who purchased from China, is purchasing from questionable sources and is dishonest about the facts.

  • Melissaandcrew

    The same could be said for any company. The China thing is at leadt 2yrs old. Time to move on as this is getting old real quick.

  • Cindy

    Labs, exactly. I have noticed for a while that the “Honest” Kitchen is not very “Honest”, so no surprise for me here. In the end you cannot ever for sure know what exactly a company does, but there is too much contradiction to their slogans like “our distributors pledge that the products have no toxins” or “..only the finest ingredients”, how is this possible when they purchase from the World Market the way they do from poor countries without any regulations? They rely on third parties and do not and cannot possibly know exactly what goes into their food. I must give credit to Sojos who has always been honest about the China fact and doesn’t try to say this or that which doesn’t make any sense.

  • LabsRawesome

    No way. They have “Honest” right in their name, how can they lie? Seems legit. Lol.

  • Cindy

    Inked Mary, You claim you know the “truth” and I should contact the Honest Kitchen to learn the “truth”? The reality is they just told you a lie! What else are they are lying about? In fact, just like when this China issue came out they have been very dishonest about it and it took a long time until they had admitted it; below a copy of an email from The Honest Kitchen from June 25, 2013:

    “It has been many years since anything in our products has come from China. I believe it was before I started with THK and I think it was only on an occasional basis, based entirely on availability and seasonality of particular crops. Celery, I believe, might have been one. Based on our ultimate goals and lots of feedback from customers, we ceased using all products from China years ago. As you will see in our Vendor Pledge, we require that all suppliers guarantee that nothing they provide for us originates in China. Warm Regards,
    Katherine “Kat” Pennick”

    You are stating that they just told you over the phone they have never purchased from China, which is a lie and inconsistent with their email. While you advice me to contact the company before I post something on them, I advice you NOT to contact The Honest Kitchen but do your research for yourself, as obviously The Honest Kitchen doesn’t provide accurate and honest information about the whole China issue as of this date.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Marie-
    I don’t know that I believe it. I found too many different forums where parsley from China was being discussed. These were from back in 2010, with a few of the people mentioning that THK was going to find non china sources by the end of 2011 due to consumer concerns..and lo and behold, they announced their pledge revision in sept 2011, non china sourcing included.
    Same forums/postings provided links to the THK website telling doubters to scroll down and look at the parsley(from china) Those links of course now go to the updated page. I find it hard to believe that if the information was not as stated, that someone on the forum(doubters) would not have said “hey-the website does not say that but rather choose silence to go with a hoax.

  • InkedMarie

    First, before you talk bad about any dog food company, you call them on the telephone and find out the truth *before* you post it. Stop spreading rumors.
    Regarding THK, I spoke to a representative from there about a half hour ago. According to him, they have never sourced from china and the only recall they’ve had was the parsley one four months ago.

  • Melissaandcrew

    FLIRT

  • losul

    I LUV when all the women tell me that!

  • LabsRawesome

    losul you are the boldest one of all!!

  • Pattyvaughn

    Losul
    You are so bold!

  • losul

    Am I bold yet?

    cheers! thnx labs

  • LabsRawesome

    Dude, you have to add the b’s try doing it exactly like this then the words you want to bold then close with but don’t put spaces between the and don’t put spaces between the I have to add the spaces to show you, or it will bold, and you won’t be able to see how to do it. When it posts the b’s and greater than less than symbols will not show.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Well, OK. I’d love to learn how to be colorful, I can do bold now.

  • losul

    I wanted to be both bold and colorful, but can’t even be bold. lol.

    Guess i just have to settle for LOUD

  • Pattyvaughn

    Uh, you did that wrong.

  • LabsRawesome

    LOL you forgot the b’s Like this words you want bolded remove the spaces, and it will bold everything in between.

  • LabsRawesome

    Now you’ve got it!!

  • losul

    /bhello

    hmmm I guess I’m still dumm

    /bTesting

    arghhhh

  • LabsRawesome

    HELL YEAH!!

  • Pattyvaughn

    great, just great.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Now we’re going to be coming to you for lessons in all the other stupid little computer things we haven’t been able to figure out.

  • Melissaandcrew

    THIS IS AWESOME, NOW I CAN SCREAM INSTEAD OF JUST YELLING! JK!

  • LabsRawesome

    If they don’t “close” the bold, nothing will bold. Bold has to be opened and then closed in order for it to work. Example if I just open bold open without closing bold, it doesn’t work. But, if I open and close bold it works. :)

  • Pattyvaughn

    I think it comes across as a very stern lecture :-)

  • Storm’s Mom

    Not sure that’s any better than the CAPS, to be honest :-( ..especially if someone writes a long post and neglects to stop the bolding after they’ve highlighted what they wanted to highlight :-(

  • Pattyvaughn

    YAY!!!

  • Melissaandcrew

    How’s this?

  • LabsRawesome

    It should work on any computer, they all have the same keyboard and buttons.

  • LabsRawesome

    LOL No, Melissa. Remove the parentheses and spaces. Like this- word you want to bold If I don’t put the spaces, it will just bold the word, and you won’t be able to see how I did it. lol.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Still trying, lol

  • Melissaandcrew

    Now that I can do! LOl. When I am using my smartphone, the darn keyboard is so small, it drives me nuts and causes enough typos, without trying to hit the button 4 times to change the keyboard to do coding : )

  • Storm’s Mom

    three astericks before or after something you want to highlight will also work..and it’s ***much*** less work

    ;-)

  • Cindy

    Thanks, but tried it doesn’t work on my computer, maybe the browser, thanks though.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Labs, You R awesome.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Hmmm tried it, didn’t work.. and too much effort, lol

  • Melissaandcrew

    lol. we are all guilty of that from time to time! :

  • LabsRawesome

    Hi Cindy. I have a suggestion for you. People are accusing you of yelling, because you’re writing in caps. Why not just bold
    the words you want to emphasize? To bold a word,sentence,or paragraph
    simply do this- ()words you want to bold()
    remove the parentheses, and spaces and the words in between will be
    bold.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Sorry, I let my frustration get the better of me :-(

  • Melissaandcrew

    Yes. I agree. No one else has ever read something and misread it. Lets pull out the tar and feathers. Good grief.

  • Cindy

    Thank you Melissaandrew, I believe this is very logical and obvious.

  • Cindy

    How come are you guessing I got my information from their website? I based the information on memory based on an email they sent me, and they stated it is 80 Degrees, did not know they use C in Canada, not F. They also have a new website and steam their food not at 80 Degrees anymore but 90 Degrees. No conspiracy theory please anymore! All these years I thought Orijen is using 80 Degrees F not 80 Degrees C to steam their food!

  • Melissaandcrew

    I believe Cindy is correct-however, I also believe that was stopped in 2009

  • Storm’s Mom

    http://www.orijen.ca/bafrino/never-outsourced/

    Very bottom of the page it gives the cooking temps in both C and F, so not sure why Cindy didn’t just put both or the correct F number originally. Seems like a pretty hard error to make. *shrug*

  • Melissaandcrew

    I also recall some “scuttlebutt” about them sourcing from China, back before and into early 2009. I believe that changed when they updated their vendor pledges in Sept of that year, and added the “no china” to it. Previously, I think it was that the food had to be human grade, non gmo.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Did I miss something? I see nothing false about what you quoted above. Champion cooks at 90 degrees C. Quite frankly, unless someone specifies C, I assume its F because that is what I am personally used to An easy mistake to be mad.,

  • LabsRawesome

    Hi Cindy. I have a suggestion for you. People are accusing you of yelling, because you’re writing in caps. Why not just bold the words you want to emphasize? To bold a word,sentence,or paragraph simply do this- ()words you want to bold() remove the parentheses, and spaces and the words in between will be bold.

  • Cindy

    The point is people appear to have double standards when it comes to speculation; something they are doing themselves. They don’t base their statements on fact and evidence and see what they want to see. I’m willing to correct myself and have a critical mind even towards companies I like.

    There is another source with similar information about the cooking process reg. THK which is in line with the Wikipedia information:

    Sohttp://leerburg.com/honestkitchen.htmurce:

  • Cyndi

    Anyone can change any information on Wikipedia, or atleast you used to be able to. There are plenty of “joke” wikipedia entries on there and people have a good old time making up funny information and posting it.

  • Cindy

    I DID NOT post a false claim! It was an issue of inaccuracy, I said 80 degrees vs. 125-165 degrees, I should have said, 80 Degrees C vs. 125 Degrees F etc. Orijen did not tell me in their email they use C and they did tell me 80 DEGREES. I did not claim in my posting it was F or C, it was simply inaccurate and a misunderstanding. Again, can you get over it? There is a lot of misunderstanding of people on this forum, that’s life! We try to be as accurate as possible.
    Now you say Wikipedia is inaccurate. Since you want hardcover facts and truth, I would like to know this from you; how do you get the idea that my source of information how they make their food would be inaccurate? Unless you provide me with something which proves Wikipedia wrong you cannot say that! I relied now on Wikipedia for information and you say it is inaccurate and try to denounce it. Where are your ‘facts’ coming from; or is it a GUESS, SPECULATION, Personal choice?

  • Cindy

    InkedMarie, I did not see where you had asked me to post these links. I read on other forum information. I also have followed the story years ago which was all over the internet. Most of that information is GONE by now. But here you have some information that is still on the web regarding the China issue on a forum:

    http://www.ourdogsonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23874

    They got the celery from china even though Celery grows in the USA. Now they get the celery from Poland instead, as well as the Green beans and Cabbage, even though these veggies grow in this country. They get Papaya from Thailand, Bananas from the Philippines, Parsley and Basil from Egypt, Chicory from India, Apples from Chile and Rosmary from Spain.
    Poland is Eastern Europe and it is a FACT that they sell cheap produce ;Apples are available from the USA; actually Washington State grows so much organic apple they don’t know what to do with them. No more comments needed.

    Source: Their own pledge:

    http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/pledge-to-quality-and-origin

  • Cindy

    InkedMarie, Excuse me? You can’t get over that I had received bad information myself and have Corrected myself many times! Can you forgive me and move on? You are making it sound like as if I was completely wrong, but I was not. THK DID use products from China, they have changed it recently and I was not up to date. Have you ever made a mistake in your life and posted something which was not 100% up to date? I believe you did! I have corrected myself many times over. Get over it and move on!

  • InkedMarie

    “You are right, it is 90Degrees C, according to Orijen new number on their website,so that is 194 Degree Fahrenheit. ”

    Again, there you are, posting yet another false claim here. Stop posting before you check your facts and not Wikipedia LOL. Wiki isn’t the best place for information.

  • InkedMarie

    Also, I have asked you to post links about everything you have been saying about THK sourcing from China as of a year or two ago; where are the links? Before you tell me to look it up on the web, that is your job since you are the one making the claims.

  • InkedMarie

    You have been yelling. That is what posting in all caps is. I personally am getting royally po’d with you and if someone can tell me how I can hide or ignore people here, you’re the only one I’ve ever wanted to ignore. You posted untruths about THK and as I said to you, people here read what you say & may believe it, they don’t read your retraction. You don’t like THK, great, I get it. I do. I have no idea if half the other stuff you’re posting about them is true or not but for your sake, I sure hope it is.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, I must say my dogs do very well on Sojos turkey, even though I won’t buy it anymore due to the China ingredients. However, I can see the difference. I hardly feed them kibble anymore, every evening they get a home made meal and often I mix it with Sojos. I can see the difference in them by them not getting kibble every day anymore; don’t get me wrong, most of my food was always home made, but I can see a big difference overall preparing the home made food with dried food such as even Sojos vs. kibble. Big difference, actually especially my Springer is having so much energy, he smiles now all the time and jumping around, they have more energy and you can tell they love it and feel happier. As said before I will switch to Urban Wolf and Grandma Lucy, and also give the fresh frozen. I’m in California and I get a lot of organic chicken and lamb here inexpensive (well, sort of).

  • Cindy

    My guessing or wishful thinking is that they cook the potatoes and the chickpeas and the rest is raw-then they freeze dry the rest. This would make sense to me. Whatever they do; why not be forthcoming? I have seen it with Great Life, the information I was getting from them was completely false. You did not know if they are lying or innocently don’t even know what is going on…

  • Cindy

    Pattyvaughn, sense of humor?…well, I guess something is said so quickly and can be misunderstood on a forum like this.I was myself choosing between these types of foods. I came across a Sojos Turkey sample and my dogs loved it so much. Then I found out that they are using ingredients from China, which completely surprised me and the rest is history. So this is new to me to feed these ‘mixes’ to my dogs with fresh meat; before that I prepared the food without mixes. I simply got hang up on THK merely because they purchase ingredients from so many different countries and I doubt their quality control. You call it speculation but I think it is obvious that the purpose why people buy from Asia is because it is cheap.Look, I must be honest about this; I have a company myself, I work in sales. When there is an issue, I learned early on, you cover everything up. You know the costumers are right 90% of the time, you try to downplay the issues as you need to sell your product, believe me, everyone I know who does what I do would tell you the same. So I have no illusions when they say this or that, but in reality it is all about money. I have an issue with when people are so naive (and it may include them themselves in some of the instances) to think that all of these ingredients they purchase from so many suppliers and countries are ‘GMO free, toxins free and China free’, it does seem unlikely that they have that much control over the food when they set it all up the way they do. I’m not speculating, I’m not accusing anyone, I’m just putting it out there. It is better when a company sources locally and have their own plant, as they can visually inspect everything, not just talk to people over the phone, it just doesn’t work so well and can become an issue when you spread yourself thin. I like other companies better who make a point and say they won’t compromise quality, purchase 95% of their products in the USA and won’t buy from Asia or South America because of regulation issues which means you may take a risk by buying a product which was tainted with or some other issue due to non regulations of these countries. In Europe the regulations are much stricter than here, in the US, when they buy something there it is 100% correct what they say; 100 mg. is 100 mg. not 50, not 10 etc. Here in the US vitamin and herb dealers have told me they can say 50 mg. but it may be only 10. There in Europe it is precise. Imagine in Asia how much worse it is there, you just can’t rely on all the information they give you. So if I would have a pet food company I would not buy from these countries as these are usually not reliable sources.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Sorry you took that as yelling at you rather than my wicked sense of humor. That was why I only capped the one thing.
    I do have reservations about THK and many other foods, and I have agreed with you on some of the points you have made, but you were speculating about THK motives, which you can’t know.
    And me telling you that you come across as prejudiced and a fear mongerer was not calling you names. It was informing you of how I believe you are perceived, because of how you tout 3 food but vehemently attack others. Others that I might add, are better than 99% of the other foods out there even if they have problems.
    I think you have some important things to say, but I hate for them to be totally lost, because somebody thinks you are a walking advert and nothing more. So please tone down and don’t completely overload on absolutely everything that is wrong with one food and how miraculous another is in one post.
    I’m sorry I offended you. It was not my intention. I will try harder to see your point of view in the future.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Yes it does but that still leaves room for guessing. Why not spell it out so consumers know exactly what they’re doing. Especially regarding the meat!

  • Cindy

    Melissaandrew, than you, I thought the same.

  • Cindy

    It is really amazing how you always learn new things. They do say on their website the produce is cooked or raw before it gets freeze dried.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, it is 250 Degrees F where it becomes carcinogenic, same when you grill meat it is so hot that it turns into something carcinogenic. The kibbles I use all use temperature below that. Maybe THK is legally allowed to use the term ‘human grade’, but legally for instance Grandma Lucy is not allowed to claim, they purchase from the suppliers for restaurants, which are human grade supplies, and then do something else (Truth-in-advertising act). So to me the other companies ‘human grade’ explanations are to me just as valid. Imagine you are a company and you make your own food, you know the farmers, you cook it, you test it, you have additional lab tests done, you visually control every ingredient before it gets processed. THK doesn’t do that. They simply rely on third parties. Imagine you would order all kinds of different products from many different countries and suppliers and you have to rely on all of these people to get it to a factory which makes the food for you; and then you claim Human grade and this or that, but in reality you must see the product for yourself before it goes into the product to know anything for sure. If they would at least purchase their ingredients more locally and from regulated countries they would have to me more credibility. Their food is very expensive, to me for the price they should be sourced more locally and be more organic. Better dog foods are all human grade these days as far as I know.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I use caps to stress a word or phrase too, not entire paragraphs.

  • Melissaandcrew

    I use caps now and then to STRESS a word or phrase I want to stand out. I dont see a problem with your post. Since it was not the whole post (which would make me think yelling) I simply assume its for stress..like italics, lol.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Fair enough. In the absence of the ability to highlight/italicize/bold text here, I would suggest putting what you want to highlight into a separate paragraph, and put something like *** before and after the paragraph. Sort of like this:

    ***I am trying to highlight this sentence***

    Hope this helps!

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I couldn’t find anywhere on their website where they claim to be raw either.

  • Shawna

    No kidding?? I did not know that.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Grandma Lucy’s cooks the meat first and then freeze dries. I asked them a while back because I didn’t know if this was raw food or what.

  • Shawna

    Yeah, I do agree that a lot of foods use human grade but The Honest Kitchen is the only company that can legally say they use human grade. The others we simply have to take their word for it.

    Cooking foods above, I think it was 180 to 200 degrees – if I remember correctly, causes the protein and the starches to become carcinogenic. Doesn’t mean every dog that eats kibbles heated this high will get cancer but it does increase ones risk. Again, not dissin on Orijen as I feed it… Just an interesting and important, in my opinion, fact. Your dogs aren’t subjected to a lot of carcinogens, from the sound of it, so you might not have to be as concerned as someone else but some may need to consider this??

  • Cindy

    Storm’s mom, I get it, but I did not know caps meant yelling. I wanted to highlight what I was saying, no need to come across so angry. So I did not yell, I was simply using caps to highlight. Did not know. No need to yell at me either, won’t use caps then.

  • Cindy

    Good point Shawna! You are right, it is 90Degrees C, according to Orijen new number on their website,so that is 194 Degree Fahrenheit. The Honest Kitchen makes their food in comparison at 140-165 Degree F according to Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honest_Kitchen

    . So the difference is approx. 30% in temperature. I did not realize in Canada they had C and not F. All the foods I feed my dogs are human grade. Even Sojos, Urban Wolf and Grandma Lucy is human grade according to their website. Fromm, Horizon and others I use too, but of course you cannot say chicken meal would be human grade as you won’t eat it, but everything else is. Also the better companies for kibbles don’t cook above 250 Degree F, between 200-250. My dogs won’t eat THK even if I would want to use it, they say no.

  • Shawna

    The thing that I like about The Honest Kitchen is that we know 100% that all the ingredients used in their food is human grade quality. We can be assured that there is no cancerous tissue etc in the food. It’s a crap shoot with every other company…

    As mentioned I do agree that they cook the food by using heated air in their dehydration process but I can’t see any way possible that Orijen only cooks their foods at 80 degrees. Are you sure it’s not 180 degrees? OR 80 degrees celcius which converts to 176 degrees Fahrenheit? On top of that, several of the meats in the food are meals and all meals are heated twice—-once to make the meal and then in the food. This causes more damage. I use Orijen in my rotation. I’m not knocking the food. That just doesn’t seem right.

  • Storm’s Mom

    I think she was referring to your extensive use of CAPS in your previous post, which is often understood as YELLING online.

  • Cindy

    Excuse me, Pattyvaugh? You are yelling at me accusing me I’m yelling? I find a bit more respect is needed here. You have called me names on this forum. In fact it was you who stated among of other things the following: “You come across as prejudiced and as a fear mongerer” regarding the dangers of products from Asia and other non regulated countries in dog food. You then further stated my arguments would be all invalid, while it is obvious that I have a point and this forum is there for to express different opinions. I find your statements not only inaccurate but insulting. You then further have construed my statements and falsely claimed that I would do a lot of speculation, while I provided sources and evidence. The only thing I was inaccurate about is that obviously THK is not purchasing anymore directly from China as of this date , but they DID purchase ingredients from China until recently, so I was not up to date. It is also a fact though that they are still purchasing from 3 different countries in Asia which are hardly regulated and also purchase from other “Third World” countries which are not regulated either. These products are obviously cheaper over there. They rely on third parties distributors, some of them they have never met in person, with pledges, and other third parties who make their food and do all of their testing. I know alot of great dog food companies who take a stand and don’t purchase from these countries which are hardly regulated, because of the risks and quality issues. They do additional tests, have their own factories and buy directly from the farmers or suppliers, no third parties distributors they have never met. They inspect everything that goes into the dog food, but THK relies on other people as third parties make their food. You have been attacking me for pointing out these issues, but obviously no one should be attacked for making a valid observation. It is obvious, that when you have a situation like this you have less control over what is getting into the final product and as a result you can have a higher chance of having recalls. And they in fact they just had a recall. It is obvious to me that you yourself must be not 100% certain about THK or otherwise you would not get so hang up when someone has a critical mind and points out some of these issues.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Three things.
    1)QUIT YELLING AT EVERYONE. NOBODY IS YELLING AT YOU.
    2) while I would agree that they can’t lie to you, that is not the same as must tell you the truth. Alot of shady companies get around this by having someone who “doesn’t know” answering the phone. Some will tell you that they will have someone call you, but no one ever does. Somedon’t provide ways to contact them that any normal human can find. Some only record a messege and that recording is the absolute closest to a human you will ever get. Some only provide email contact info and then ignore all emails. That is why one of the things you will hear people say as a reason for rejecting a possible food choice is lousy customer service. We know they are hiding something.
    3) While I would also like them to test their own food, I want a company to do third party testing. The whole point of third party testing is to be transparent. If another lab is doing the tests, they can not cover it up. If the only testing is their own, then it is easy to hush up.

  • Cindy

    They DO have to tell the truth, there is a federal law called ‘Truth-in- Advertising’, there have been companies sued in federal court for that. They cannot be deceiving, misleading or make something sound a certain way when it is not true. They also have to be up-front with costumers.

    http://www.ftc.gov/opa/reporter/advertising/

    My issue with The Honest Kitchen is that they did until recently purchase products from China, that shows to me an approach in a company I’m concerned about. Now I have to give them credit for improving the situation. I also have to give tem credit for their variety of products which have great ingredients in them, such as for instance Fish from Iceland, that is awesome. But what I have a problem with is this: A COMPANY SHOULD PURCHASE THEIR INGREDIENTS AS MUCH LOCALLY AS POSSIBLE DUE TO THE RISK OF THE WORLD MARKETS, QUALITY CONCERNS AND ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS OF POLLUTION/TRANSPORT. THK HOWEVER, PURCHASES FROM LIKE 10 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, AND SOME OF THE PRODUCTS, SUCH AS SWEET POTATOS, ARE EASY TO GET HERE IN THE USA. THE OTHER ISSUE I HAVE IS HOW THEY PROCESS THEIR FOOD AND THE FACT THAT THEY DON’T HAVE THEIR OWN FACILITY. They heat their food around 100-150 degrees, in comparison, Orijen heats it at 80 degrees and Grandma Lucy freeze dries their food and they do have their own factory in Irvine CA. When they have your own factory you have much more control over their food. When you freeze dry the food vs. heating it like that the food is going to be more nutritious and of better quality. IN ADDITION THK USES A THIRD PARTY COMPANY TO TEST THEIR FOOD, WHILE THEIR FOOD IS MADE BY ANOTHER THIRD PARTY. THEY FURTHER RELY ON DISTRIBITORS TO DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO. OTHER COMPANIES SUCH AS FOR INSTANCE FROMM DO IN ADDITION THEIR OWN TESTING, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN FACTORY AND KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THE PRODUCT IS FROM; THEY DON’T RELY ON THIRD PARTIES SO MUCH, THEY CAN CONTROL EVERYTHING FIRST HAND. SIMILAR TO GRANDMA LUCY. NOW YOU HAVE A RECALL, WHICH JUST HAS HAPPENED DUE TO A PARCLEY ISSUE FROM EGYPT, WHICH IS MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN WHEN YOU HAVE NOT AS MUCH CONTROL OVER THE PRODUCT. I WISHED THEY WOULD GO MUCH MORE LOCALLY AND TAKE A PAY CUT BY PURCHASING MORE FROM THE USA AND CANADA, THIS WOULD IMPROVE THEIR QUALITY OF FOOD AND SAFETY CONCERNS.

  • InkedMarie

    My issue with what you are saying is that you are saying things, that ultimately turn out not to be true, such as THK using ingredients from China. Some people here read what we say and believe it to be fact so again, please, do your research, make sure it’s true before hitting “post”. Just like newspaper articles, people read the story on the front page, not the retraction.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I realize that many places in Asia are extremely poluted, in fact they are so poluted that I will never travel to, say for instance, China, because it would kill me in the first few hours. But the whole continent isn’t like that.
    And I realize that buying American parsley would be more expensive than buying Egyptian parsley, but my point was that we don’t even know if American parsley is available in the quanities they need. My grandfather was a farmer and except for his garden, many of his crops were presold to big corporations. If he was growing parsley, anything he grew, up to a certain amount, he would have a contract to sell to a particular spice company. So what I’m saying about THK is that we don’t know WHY they went to Asian/African countries for some of their ingredients. I’m sure some of the reason was cost, but I don’t know. I give them credit for being transparent. Here in the USA, they don’t have to be, and they don’t have to even tell you what they don’t want to if you call them and ask.

  • Cindy

    I don’t want to argue with you but I have to say in closing that it is pretty obvious that products made in Asia are much cheaper than products made in the USA. That is NOT speculation like you accuse me of, but fact. So to me a company who buys lots of stuff in Asia or South America, while the products are available in the US, it is pretty obvious that they are doing it because the ingredients are cheaper. You want cheap production, buy low, sell high. I have a company myself and know how business people think. So ask people who have pet food companies they will confirm that. There is not other reason to buy in other countries, unless products are not available. Sorry, but celery and parsley grow in the US and are available, so are most of the ingredients THK gets from other countries.

  • Cindy

    It looks like to me you should research more about toxins in Asia. I have been to Asia, INLDUDING India; you see red rivers, children dying from toxic foods; you see people die very young due to pollution; you would not believe what is going on, the corruption, the toxins, as not much is regulated, It is nothing like the US. They don’t have regulations like here. I disagree with you; pollution in this country vs. India, China a major difference. This is not fear mongering, it is reality. The Honest Kitchen is purchasing products from 3 Asian countries and have switched buying from china to other Asian countries; maybe an improvement, maybe not so much; I also posted on the sojos link on my postings some links to the problems in Asia, and there are even reports from the US government; you should visit overseas and see it for yourself, especially in China. This is not speculation but fact, if you research the issue on the web, just regarding China alone, you will see the reality, you are taking a risk eating vegetables from China and some Asian countries. If you think this is speculation, that means to me you are not educated about the facts and the risks. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE HONEST KITCHEN IS MAKING AN EFFORT TO DO IT RIGHT. BUT I MADE MY POINT MERLEY ON SOJOS WHO HAS NOT CHANGED THEIR CHINA INGREDIENTS, AND NOT THE HONEST KITCHEN, SO EVERYONE IS HANG UP ON THE HONEST KITCHEN NOW. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY TRY TO AVOID CHINA SINCE 1-2 YEARS BY NOW BUT STILL DON’T GET IT 100% RIGHT, HOWEVER, GOOD FOR THEM AND I’M SURE THEIR PRODUCT IS DECENT, JUST NOT FOR ME BASED ON THEIR PAST AND THE REASONING AS STATED EARLIER.

  • Elizabeth

    Ok, thanks again!

  • Pattyvaughn

    Do you honestly think that no products from the US ever get recalled? Or that there are no toxins in US ingredients? You come across as prejudiced and as a fear mongerer. There is no guarantee that just because something is 100% sourced in the USA that it won’t be bad or contaninated, like all our rice. You don’t know what they pay for ingredients or what is available in the quantities they need. You do a LOT of speculation, but basically you have nothing on them except something that happened 2 years ago, that they have done their best to make right. You don’t like them, we get that, but your argument is invalid.

  • Cindy

    Hi InkedMary, I was correct about Sojos in regards to China ingredients, but it appears that The Honest Kitchen has stopped using products from China, so I was not 100% correct on this subject, but it is true that they DID use products from China until 1-2 years ago; something they try to downplay. It is also a fact that the Honest Kitchen has not been very honest about it and then finally admitted it. They used to say they don’t have any ingredients from China and then had to correct themselves later as some people found out. I have followed the story years ago and you can find traces on the web; Since then they became more transparent. What concerns me with the Honest Kitchen is mostly that they are still purchasing products from Asia, and they regulations often suck. They further purchase from like 10 different countries, which I find concerning as well for multiple reasons. Then they rely on a pledge only by their suppliers that the products don’t contain toxins or products from China. To me this is not enough. First of all the pledge is a lie that they promise the products don’t contain toxins, as they do contain toxins. No company can say their products are free of any toxins. It is the same with organic foods. I know someone who has an organic restaurant. The organic food was so expensive, so he got a company to certify that 40% organic food is 100% organic. But it is a lie. I also posted an email from Sojos here on this site where they explain how via a back door some products get sold as USA made and they are actually still made in China. Furthermore it is a problem when you are dealing with so many countries, where it is more likely something from China gets shipped from India and then it says ‘made in India’. It happens all the time with world trade. The Honest Kitchen also relies on a third party company for testing, and don’t test their products themselves, now you are having a recall of salmonella from Parsley which is from Egypt. Why don’t they buy it in the USA? Because Egypt sells it cheaper. This to me is not acceptable. To me this company tries to buy cheap and sell high. Whatever they do and say is merely a sales pitch and I find it, based on what I have seen, they lack sometimes on integrity. That is why I stick with Urban Wolf and Grandma Lucy as they purchase more locally, not from “Asia” or China, and not from so many different countries. They Never have bought from China.

  • InkedMarie

    I see others have corrected you about China but to ease my mind, they’ll be getting a call from me in the morning. As I said earlier, you need to research first. People don’t need to read things tht are false. Some people won’t take the time to research first.

  • Shawna

    By itself. Too much calcium if you are use RMB with the premixes.

  • Elizabeth

    Oh one more thing. Would I feed the RMB with the premix or by itself? Would that be too much calcium for one meal if done together? Sorry for all the questions.

  • Elizabeth

    Thanks!!

  • Cindy

    Here is a copy of email from Sojos company below. They explain how products are sold as ‘made in USA’ while they are from china and how ingredients in other foods you buy as ‘made in USA’ can be from china as well. As stated before, I like to stay with companies they don’t buy cheap ingredients from any Asian country and those who ever did you have to ask yourself what they are doing. They have chosen cheap ingredients over quality, even though their explanation is this or that, they have a choice to buy more quality domestically ingredients, no need to buy from 7 different countries so many ingredients, most of it is grown in the US, including celery. I mean they say just like the Honest Kitchen that ‘they are getting the finest human grade ingredients’ but no one knows if they tainted them with formaldehyde or in what kind of toxic soils the plants have grown as no one tests for these chemicals.
    Bottom line; In most places in Asia things are not that much regulated and when you buy any product from there you are taking a risk.

    Email from Sojos:
    “Thanks for considering Sojos and for your question. We are a Minnesota company that was started in 1985. We do all of our own baking, freeze drying, milling and processing in our NE Minneapolis facility.

    I wish it was possible to source all of our ingredients from the Midwest, but we use many exotic ingredients that make that impossible. We source everything that we can domestically and locally when possible. But certain ingredients, namely dried vegetable dices are impossible to source from the US. For example, 99.9% of all of the dried celery dices in the world come from China. And there are other vegetables and spices that simply aren’t grown in the US.

    There are US importers that resell ingredients sourced overseas and some pet food companies buy from these “middle men” and then claim that their ingredients are domestic. But we strive to be a completely transparent company and we have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of. When we buy ingredients from Asian sources, we have a representative on the ground inspecting not only the factory but the finished product to ensure that we’re getting the finest human-quality ingredients. This is the same stuff found in “people food” at the grocery store like soup mixes, stuffing mix, trail mix, etc. No feed ingredients. No by-products. No artificial preservatives, flavors, or colors.”

    Source:
    http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/283103-sojos-fruit-and-veggie/

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Yeah – I bought some! It is rotated (it will be, finishing the dog food right now) with THK and Addiction and I just ordered some Big Dog Natural (bigdognatural.com) and kibble. I use slightly boiling water.

  • Shawna

    :-) — I think this is what they should market as their dog food… :-)

    Afterthought — “cooking” destroys the enzyme that causes cruciferous veggies to be a problem with the thyroid (goitrogens).. My guess that freeze drying and dehydarting do not have that same affect (the whole purpose is not to destroy the enzymes). And I imagine, but don’t know for sure, that goitrogens have the same affect on dogs and cats as humans. SO, I would definitely not feed this as a single diet day in and day out.

  • Cindy

    It is a fact that The Honest Kitchen got caught 1,2 years ago regarding their ingredients from China. It is possible though by reading more that they have changed it and switched to other ‘Third world countries’ in Asia instead, such as Philippines, India and Thailand. There are sources which claim that they are still using ingredients from China. There is on Wikipedia an article stating that recently, 1,2 years ago that they have their suppliers sign a pledge not to use any ingredients from China anymore, so they have been trying to improve the situation. I will email them and ask them for sure if ANYTHING is still from china or not, but these other countries are not very good either. It looks to me that URBAN WOLF OR GRANDMA LUCY are more reliable because they don’t use any ingredients from these countries and NEVER HAVE. So there is no issue as they NEVER had done it and WON’T EVER buy from China. However, Sojos admits to use Celery from China among other vegetables. It is also possible that things from China get imported into India and then the ‘made in India’ item is actually from China, a problem when you use these products from so many countries. There are articles online that they do things like that. BOTTOM LINE IS I DON’T USE THESE PRODUCTS ANYMORE AS THE COMPANIES HAVE SHOWN THEY ARE WILLING TO BUY CHEAP INGREDIENTS FROM NON RELIABLE SOURCES.

  • Pattyvaughn

    So you think Canada= North America?

  • losul

    I don’t see any particular ingredients in THK coming from China. Just a few fruits, veggies, herbs from Thailand, India, Egypt

  • Pattyvaughn

    So you think all of Asia is China?

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    What do you think of Sojo’s Cat? Ingredients look the same but with more meat!

  • Cindy

    Regarding Honest Kitchen and China; by reading the web I must say it is possible that they recently have changed their sources of ingredients and have been trying 1 year ago to get the celery from the US and not from China anymore. It appears that they have had ingredients from China in their food until recently for sure. I will email them and see if they have changed something recently. However, on their website, they do admit buying from Asia. Then they say they buy from Thailand. I would prefer a company that doesn’t purchase anything from a Third World country, such as Urban Wolf, as toxins are not well regulated.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    That page mentions Thailand, Philippines, India, and Egypt in the Asia/Africa link. Where do you see China?

  • Cindy

    The Honest Kitchen states their ingredients are from Asia on their website. I have emails from them stating that some of their ingredients are from China. Unless they have changed something recently….
    http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/the-benefits/our-ingredients/

  • Cindy

    Am I missing something? On their website they say their ingredients are from Asia! Asia=China, China is in Asia. I have emails from them stating the same; CHINA.

  • Cindy

    InkedMarie, this is incorrect. The Honest Kitchen even state on their website that their ingredients are sourced in China/Asia:

    http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/our-ingredients/

    They spread rumors online making it sound like nothing is from China, but they admit it now on their website!
    How do you get the idea that their ingredients are not from China?

  • Shawna

    PS — did you know that the US knows our current milk supply can cause autism, schizophrenia, type 1 diabetes and heart disease but is keeping the public in the dark about it.!!! I wonder how some folks sleep at night?

  • InkedMarie

    I said this earlier, THK does not have ingredients from China!

  • Shawna

    Thanks Cindy!! I appreciate your props :) Made me grin from ear to ear :)

    Admittedly I don’t know nearly as much about what China is doing as I do about what the US is doing — other than China found melamine in their baby formulas too!!! WHAT????? That does have to tell you something doesn’t it….

    I’m not going to say the US is as bad as China especially cause I just admitted that I’m not up on all of what China is doing. But the US should be ashamed of what is allowed in our foods (and pet foods seemingly would be worse) — such as PFOA, pink slime, aspartame, rBGH, MSG etc.. MSG causes brain damage, lupus and multiple sclerosis to name a few and the government allows them to “hide” that it is in the food due to “proprietary” ingredients.. Not good. And it’s in EVERYTHING!!

    I usually try to stick with a food with 36% or more protein (personally for my own dogs) but I do like the look of the ingredients in the Pulsar.. I would use it in my rotation.. Not sure if my stores carry it though? I’ll have to pay attention next time I’m in.

    I am aware that THK technically “cooks” the meat in their foods. They have it right on their website. How did you learn that they are being dishonest about their ingredients?

    I haven’t tried Urban Wolf (no one carries it here) but you have inspired me to give it a try :).. I do use Grandma Lucy’s premixes in my rotation.

    Have you seen the Environmental Working Groups “dirty dozen”, the veggies and fruits most contaminated. It seems to me (could be imagining tough ;) that bananas was on their clean side but they aren’t this year.. BUT cucumbers are on their dirty dozen list now!! UGHHH I LOVE cucumbers :) I usually buy organic BUT…. http://www.ewg.org/foodnews/summary.php

  • Cindy

    Shawna, you are great! You are so knowledgeable about all of this! You are awesome!
    I have to say though, Horizon does have chicken Formula without salmon. The proof is when you actually try the foods too; the Horizon Pulsar gives excellent digestion and all the allergies go away! I think one other factor is how ingredients are combined; there is not much research done on things like this; my dog is allergic to Chicken, but not with the Horizon Pulsar Chicken; can you explain that; I can; it depends how the food is made, combined and the quality of ingredients.
    I have to say that not all Fromm formula have potatos and are not all pea heavy, but the company is great and it is a good, safe basic food, as they would not put anything ever from China into their food. It is true though that regarding yeast infection in my springer the only food that doesn’t cause it is Horizon Pulsar. The potato, peas etc. cause that. Not all Fromm formula are potato or pea heavy. I would never feed kibble alone, as I feed it only 3 times a week if my dogs are ‘asking’ for them.
    My dogs do well on Sojos, however, a bit a lot of stool volume. I got Sojos Turkey as a sample and to my surprise, my dogs went crazy about this food! So the good thing was it was easy to mix with some raw food they don’t eat and mix it with some raw stuff they normally don’t eat.
    What you mentioned about pro and cons about foods, that is why you rotate.
    However, I take peas or the fructooligascoride over these ingredients from China in Sojos or The Honest Kitchen. I read again up on vegetables from china, and oh my god, you would not believe what is going on regarding environmental toxins, pesticides, heavy metals, poisons we are not even able to detect. Americans living in China got so sick over there from their foods and stated people there die really young due to the poison. Also the American government issued a few reports about the dangers of their vegetables and how they are sneaking it into this country or Australia. It is not a nice picture and not something you want to eat! However, those ingredients end up in trail mixes, in frozen foods you buy at the grocery store too! We have to be really careful. If they mix ingredients with other ingredients and some are from China they can legally say ‘made in America’. There you want to feed your dog healthy food and then this! In addition. The Honest Kitchen (Source Wikipedia) heats their ingredients at around 100-150 degrees, while most kibble I recommend cook at 200 degrees. Orijen steams their food at 80 degrees. After all I would prefer these high end kibbles over vegetables from China, how dare these companies doing that. The Honest Kitchen has been very dishonest about ingredients from China and tries to say this or that but reality is they still put ingredients from China in their dog food! NOT ACCEPTABLE! However, I do find that beside URBAN WOLF GRANDMA LUCY does not buy from China and they seem great! What I don’t like about THE HONEST KITCHEN is also the fact they use non organic bananas. I know first hand how those bananas are grown and have excessive amounts of pesticides on them. Organic bananas are easy to find; in fact they are only 20 cents per pound more expensive. So that tells me everything right there about the Honest Kitchen; they say they try to get organic ingredients whenever they can, and it would be very easy to put organic bananas in their foods, and in reality, most of their food is not organic. Beside my dogs do not like their food. They liked Sojos so much that is why I purchased it. But after what I have learned, I will def. buy give this food again.

  • losul

    I would like to know this also.

  • Shawna

    Hi Cindy,

    I would prefer to not have foods sourced from China but I’m not anal about every ingredient being problematic. For what it’s worth though, I really don’t care for Sojo’s. The premix is the only thing I would recommend from them and then only in rotation as I don’t think the veggies digest as well as some other premixes.

    It’s hard to recommend foods. Example — Urban Wolf has flax in it and nutritional yeast. Flax adds ALA fatty acids but it is DHA/EPA that are the most benefit to dogs/cats. Nutritional yeast is a form of monosodium glutamate (MSG) which for those suseptible it can cause brain damage, aggression, multiple sclerosis etc. It bioaccumulates so the pup/person could be eating it for years before symptoms show or it could show quickly. Just depends on the individuals tolerance level. I personally have MRI diagnosed brain damage from MSG and MSG like foods.

    The Fromm grain free product reviewed by Dr. Mike has peas, “pea protein” and pea flour as well as russet potatos and wisconsin cheese. These all (as well as chicken and eggs and other foods) are foods that can cause leaky gut, malnutrition, IBD, kidney disease etc in suseptible dogs/cats.

    My only grief with Horizon besides pea issue in some pups is the addition of salmon meal, salmon oil and flaxseed. If these omega 3 fats go rancid they cause more harm than good and they are quite unstable. It is quite possible and maybe even likely, in my opinion, that by the time someone finishes a bag of food the omega fat is rancid. I would much rather add sardines or my own oil to the foods.

    Oh, one more possible issue with Horizon. The addition of fructooligosaccharides. As a prebiotic this is a good thing but it is an isolated prebiotic. There has been some concern that isolated individual prebiotics like FOS can imbalance the gut bacteria in favor of only a certain few. Since there are at least 14 known beneficial pathogens in the canine gut feeding just one type of prebiotic could feed 5 or 6 and starve the rest. All the bacteria are beneficial and have a place and a job.

    Hence the very real need, in my opinion, for a rotational diet with a very wide variety of foods. :)

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Since my dogs are small, their RMB is a meal! The stuffed cow hooves are even full enough with tripe to be a meal.

  • Shawna

    You can do it either way as long as you don’t feed them so often as to unbalance the premix/meat meals. Recreational bones are given as a “treat” but they too can add extra calories so may need to be limited depending on your particular pup/s. :)

  • InkedMarie

    You really need to research. THK does NOT use ingredients from China. They disclose where every single ingredient is from and China is not one of the places. I can;t comment on the other foods you mentioned but since you’re wrong about THK, you may very well be wrong about the rest

  • Pattyvaughn

    Which ingredients are from China?

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    THK doesn’t use Chinese ingredients according to their website.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, how can you recommend these foods. They use ingredients from China. I could not believe it myself. Urban Wolf Pre mix doesn’t but even Honest Kitchen does. I will stick to Urban Wolf and my home made foods. I will give some China free kibble such as Horizon and Fromm-better than Sojos and HK. My dogs love the Sojos Turkey, but it is not worth it to me.

  • Cindy

    I’m so disappointed by this food! Many of the ingredients are from China, so is Honest Kitchen! I will finish up the bag, but then no more. I will only give Urban Wolf as a mix as they don’t use any ingredients from China.

  • Elizabeth

    One more question. When I feed the raw meaty bones do I need to feed those as a meal? Or just give to them like a “treat”?

  • Elizabeth

    Ok, thank you! I will probably just start with the premixes to get comfortable and then move on to prey model if I feel better about it.

  • Shawna

    No bone with premixes (at least the ones I’m familiar with). No best way but you need to be educated when feeding prey model – read Dr. Tom Lonsdale books/work. Or read the data on the website dogaware.com. It’s not hard but there are rules that must be followed, such as limiting liver so as not to create a vitamin A overdose and variety, variety, variety etc. I have toy breeds with health issues, I rescue. Prey model isn’t an option for my crew in my opinion.

  • Elizabeth

    Thank you! Should I feed meat with bone that mixes in the premix or will that be too much bone? I also just looked into prey model raw feeding. Is there one specific way to feed raw that is better or is it just based on preference?

  • Shawna

    I, and others here on DFA, feel that rotation is the best way to feed. So feeding Sojo’s premix with beef then chicken then lamb etc until the bag is gone and then feeding another premix like The Honest Kitchen Preference with venison, beef and turkey.

    You can also look at Grandma Lucy’s premixes, Steve Brown’s premix and others. Just make sure the premix is designed to make a complete and balanced diet when added to meat…..

    Yes, you can still feed a raw meaty bone for dental health. You can also feed recreational bones to help with teeth — like knuckle bones with some meat.
    When using premixes like the ones named above you don’t need to add organs. I like using dehydrated organs, liver works well, as treats.

  • Elizabeth

    To anybody who might know: would using the Sojos veggie mix and adding my own fresh meat be a decent way to feed raw? Is there a better veggie mix to use that won’t break the bank? Would I still be able to feed my dogs a raw meaty bone every now and then? Can I use boneless turkey and chicken breasts and beef flanks, etc. or will I need to feed organs, too? Sorry about all of the questions. I don’t know much about raw and I really want to feed it, but I don’t know how to start.

  • LabsRawesome

    Well if someone responds to me with a post and I don’t really have a rebuttal, I just up vote their comment, to let them know I read their post. Or if I agree with someone’s post, I will up vote that comment, as well. I think people might be less likely to down vote comments if we could see their names, like we used to be able to. :)

  • InkedMarie

    I read via email, only come here if I want o repond. I don’t pay attention to votes up or down

  • LabsRawesome

    I usually don’t notice, either. Actually, I really don’t care if I get a down vote. The only reason I even noticed it, was because I was on the thread scrolling thru comments. When I saw it I was like oops, I guess someone hates their Mom. Sad. Or maybe they hate me. Lol.

  • losul

    O.K. great. I appreciate that.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Yeah, the Sojo’s calls for 1:1 meat to pre-mix and THK calls for 1:1 for less active dogs and 2:1 for more active dogs. I think that anything 3:1 (25% or less pre-mix by volume) would be fine to add to a meat/organ/bone mix. I especially wouldn’t worry about it with the Sojo’s as the only added vitamin/minerals are calcium and vitamin d.

  • losul

    Thnx HDM

    Just one more thing, I think they (directions) call for using a higher ratio of the dry mix than i would be using, like 50/50? I think I would use about 80% MPC meat,bone, organ mixes to 20% (calorie-wise) of the pre-mix. Do you think I would be able to use H.K.’s or Sojo’s in this lower ratio without worrying about throwing things out of whack (too high)on the calcium, vit A, minerals etc?

    I can get the the small sack 2lbs of Sojos for $12, and actually I’m eager for at least a small break from veggie preps.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Yeah Sojo’s does use rather large pieces of vegetable – my dog’s don’t digest it well so I don’t rarely use it. The thing I do like about Sojo’s though is that it smells good. I never had an issue with the powder settling to the bottom, but then again I always bought the smaller bag and I shook it before using it.

    I think difference pre-mixes catering to different users (users who feed ground whole prey, plain ground grocery store meat or who wish to add fresh organ meat) would be a great idea!

  • Pattyvaughn

    It’s rare that I notice, only when something is going on that makes me go back and reread my post. But then I notice.

  • InkedMarie

    Am I the only person who never notices if her posts get voted up or down?

  • Pattyvaughn

    You’re welcome!!

  • aimee

    Thanks Patty!

  • Melissaandcrew

    We have all had that happen. I just laugh because honestly, what does I
    it matter in the scheme of things?

  • Melissaandcrew

    Bad childhood with mommy dearest?

  • Pattyvaughn

    All right, Aimee!!

  • aimee

    Aw.. thanks losul : )

    I don’t down vote, just like I don’t use aversives in training.

  • Pattyvaughn

    How long ago did that start?!? You probably posted something that contradicted someone who views themself as the end all and be all of knowledge and it has totally distroyed their view of themself and this is how they handle it. Don’t let it bother you and don’t expect them to miraculously grow up either. Do you have any idea what good you could accomplish in the world in the amount of time someone is devoting to this. What a waste.

  • losul

    I haven’t the slightest clue why anyone would have downvoted that one. I watched the video and thought it special and endearing,

    I have no objections to ANYONE downvoting some of my posts sometimes, but as you should know a couple months or so ago, and for a long time, every single one of my posts no matter what was downvoted usually by 2 votes, no matter what I said, until I finally spoke up.

    I have a darned good idea whom.

  • LabsRawesome

    I wouldn’t take it personally. Some people are just bored, maybe? Someone down voted a post of mine, on the off topic thread. The post said “Happy Mother’s Day” with a cute video. Why would someone not like Mother’s Day?? Lol.

  • losul

    Never once thought it might be you Aimee, but if you actually don’t like one or two of my posts, absolutely vote them down, i would expect that.

  • losul

    It started happening again before yesterday’s controversy, half of my posts in this thread were already downvoted as have been again on other threads.

    If it were something really not likeable, I would like to know and maybe try to correct. But my feeling is, it is most definitely for other childish reasons.

    So how about “someone” tell me why they don’t like my posts.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m sure a few of us are going to be treated special for a few days until “someone” gets tired of it. Aimee is right, you’re in good company.

  • aimee

    Hi Losul, My posts also are frequently down voted so consider yourself in good company : )

    P.S. For the record, I have never down voted a comment

  • losul

    I see “someone” has taken it upon themselves to again downvote everything I write. Everything I posted in this topic now has a downvote.

    I can’t possibly see what is offensive, rude, unlikeable or otherwise, so instead of you behaving in such a child like and ornery manner, why don’t you just come right out and say why you are doing this?

  • losul

    I would have liked to use these sometimes.I guess it would be asking too much, but it’d be really nice if honest kitchen preference and sojos comparable mix would leave these out of the product, but provide separate pouches of 1) calcium additive, for use with meat, no bone 2) the appropriate vitamin/mineral additives, for if meat is added but no organs. Then those of us wanting to use for mixes containing both bone and organ,, one or the other, or just muscle meat only would be accomodated. But the meat only users would be inconvenienced and would likely complain.

    I’ve read a few complaints about sojos about the powder covering the veggies, and about powder settling to the bottom of the bag. I guess they use larger veggie particles.

    What the heck, i might just be compelled enough to write them and H.K. with this suggestion. Nothing to lose but a little time.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    On MPC’s delivery route? I hate you. MPC is my favorite but I usually end up ordering from Hare because the shipping is more reasonable where I live and Hare also has a deal where if you spend $1,000 or more you only pay $19 shipping per $51 lb. box.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    My guess is my dogs would go eggs, raw mix (unless the raw mix contained tripe, then raw mix first), sardines, then either veggie/berry mix or kibble (I think Gertie would go for the veggie/berry mix first – she’s nuts about fruit – the other two probably the kibble). I’ve noticed the egg is always the first things in the dish my dogs eat, unless they have tripe. This would be an interesting experiment.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I think mine would go for scrambled eggs first, not because they actually prefer it, but because it is the one thing my husband always gives them and they seem to have a special association with it.

  • monkey

    Dr Tim’s doesn’t use Chinese vitamins either. He will even tell you who makes the mix if you ask.

  • losul

    one of these days i should lay out a five course meal on a platter for Turbo just to see what he goes for first and last. Sardines, egg, raw mix, kibble, veggie/berry mix, canned. My guess is the sardines would be first, but he’d eat everything, no doubt.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I couldn’t find anything on Earthborn’s website about sourcing at all. Actually I thought their website was rather limited in information. They do claim to be holistic and natural, that may exclude Chinese products by nature, so they don’t think they need to say. I tend to want things spelled out.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Oh wow, I just looked at it. The protein was 37.5%, but the fat was 53.7% in the one I looked at. In the canned they were at least close to equal.

  • Pattyvaughn

    You are so lucky!! I pay a buck a pound for shipping. And I can’t tell what my dogs like best either, if it’s food, they dig in. That didn’t used to be the case with Gideon.

  • losul

    I’m lucky i live along MPC’s delivery route, so only $15 delivery no matter how much ordered.

    Honestly I can’t tell which foods my dog likes the best. If it resembles food, he likes it!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    The beef tripe supermix is my crew’s all time favorite!

  • losul

    Thnx HDM.

    That’s what I thought. I’ve got some grinds from my pet carnivore- beef tripe supermix, chicken supermix, lamb supreme, and whole rabbit, all with bones and organs. I still want to add veggies and such to it. I’ve been using my own admix, but kind of wanted a break from that sometimes.

  • Pattyvaughn

    For my cats, I get one called Alnutrin.

  • Pattyvaughn

    This is getting to be a good list!!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi losul –

    Urban Wolf THK’s Preference, Urban Wolf and Sojo’s all contain calcium so none are appropriate to add to a muscle meat/organ meat/bone mix (the c:p ratio would be off). Urban Wolf, however, requires the addition of organ meat as, aside from calcium, there are no synthetic vitamins and minerals – this is why Urban Wolf is my favorite pre-mix, the nutrients are whole food derived. As for Sojo’s, it doesn’t state in the directions that organ meat is required however I always added organ meat when I used Sojo’s as it doesn’t appear to be a balanced food without the addition of organ meat (the only added vitamin is D, the only added mineral is calcium). The only pre-mix I know of that is designed to be added to a muscle meat/organ meat/bone mix is Feline Instincts Whole Carcass Premix (it can be fed to dogs as well as cats) – I haven’t tried this product yet but it’s on the to-do list.

    http://felineinstincts.com/store/products-page/whole-carcassraw-cat-dog-food-premix-for-meats-with-bone/

  • losul

    Are any of them appropriate to add to a raw meat mix that already includes bone and organs?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Ohh gotcha, I thought you were feeding the complete and balanced Sojo’s. I feed raw too – my favorite pre-mixes are THK’s Preference (as Patty mentioned) and Urban Wolf. I just tried Dr. Harvey’s Veg-to-Bowl fine ground recently and like that too.

  • HealthyDogs

    Annamet developed their own vitamin/mineral pack for the express reason of assuring no China ingredients.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Have you looked at THK Preference?

  • Wallpaper Doll

    I don’t need more protein. I already feed raw meat. This is my vege/carb/fiber contribution to their diet. Might as well feed them something safe.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I thought I remembered that Orijen/Acana was China free. I wish dog food companies thought this was important enough to put on their label, but then they couldn’t quietly change that without someone finding out sooner or later. This topic should have it’s own thread like the toxic people food thread.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I like Sojo’s too, I think it’s a good company and a quality food but it’s just too low in protein in my opinion. When I use dehydrated I typically go with The Honest Kitchen or Grandma Lucy’s because they’re much higher in protein.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Their raw is really high in fat too, probably nothing I’d feed long term but I still want to try it.