Royal Canin Breed Health Nutrition Adult (Dry)

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Rating: ★★½☆☆

Royal Canin Breed Health Nutrition Adult dog food receives the Advisor’s second-lowest tier rating of 2.5 stars.

The Royal Canin Breed Health Nutrition product line includes 17 dry dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for adult maintenance.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Royal Canin Pug
  • Royal Canin Boxer
  • Royal Canin Beagle
  • Royal Canin Bulldog
  • Royal Canin Shih Tzu
  • Royal Canin Rottweiler
  • Royal Canin Chihuahua
  • Royal Canin Dachshund
  • Royal Canin French Bulldog
  • Royal Canin Cocker Spaniel
  • Royal Canin Poodle (2 stars)
  • Royal Canin Golden Retriever
  • Royal Canin Yorkshire Terrier
  • Royal Canin Labrador Retriever
  • Royal Canin German Shepherd
  • Royal Canin Miniature Schnauzer
  • Royal Canin West Highland White Terrier (2 stars)

Royal Canin Yorkshire Terrier was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Royal Canin Yorkshire Terrier

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 29% | Fat = 18% | Carbs = 45%

Ingredients: Brewers rice, brown rice, chicken by-product meal, chicken fat, wheat gluten, corn gluten meal, corn, natural flavors, powdered cellulose, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, grain distillers dried yeast, vegetable oil, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, sodium silico aluminate, fructooligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, salt, taurine, hydrolyzed yeast, vitamins [dl-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), d-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], dl-methionine, choline chloride, magnesium oxide, l-lysine, glucosamine hydrochloride, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta l.), trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate], tea, l-carnitine, chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 5.6%

Red items indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis26%16%NA
Dry Matter Basis29%18%45%
Calorie Weighted Basis25%37%39%
Protein = 25% | Fat = 37% | Carbs = 39%

The first ingredient in this dog food is brewers rice. Brewers rice is a cereal grain by-product consisting of the small fragments left over after milling whole rice. Aside from the caloric energy it contains, this item is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The second ingredient is brown rice, a complex carbohydrate that (once cooked) can be fairly easy to digest. However, aside from its natural energy content, rice is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The third ingredient is chicken by-product meal, a dry rendered product of slaughterhouse waste. It’s made from what’s left of a slaughtered chicken after all the prime cuts have been removed.

In addition to organs (the nourishing part), this stuff can contain almost anything — feet, beaks, undeveloped eggs — anything except feathers.

On the brighter side, by-product meals are meat concentrates and contain nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

In any case, although this item contains all the amino acids a dog needs, we consider chicken by-products an inexpensive, lower quality ingredient.

The fourth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The fifth ingredient is wheat gluten. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once wheat has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.

Although wheat gluten contains 80% protein, this ingredient would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.

And less costly plant-based products like this can notably boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The sixth ingredient is corn gluten meal, another plant-based protein booster.

Although corn gluten meal contains 60% protein, this ingredient would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.

The seventh ingredient includes corn. Corn is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain. And aside from its energy content, this grain is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

For this reason, we do not consider corn a preferred component in any dog food.

After the natural flavor, we find powdered cellulose, a non-digestible plant fiber usually made from the by-products of vegetable processing. Except for the usual benefits of fiber, powdered cellulose provides no nutritional value to a dog.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With five notable exceptions

First, beet pulp is a controversial ingredient, a high fiber by-product of sugar beet processing.

Some denounce beet pulp as an inexpensive filler while others cite its outstanding intestinal health and blood sugar benefits.

We only call your attention here to the controversy and believe the inclusion of beet pulp in reasonable amounts in most dog foods is entirely acceptable.

Next, we find grain distillers dried yeast, also known as GDDY.

GDDY is an ingredient obtained from the fermentation of cereal grains separated from distilling mash as a by-product of the ethanol (biofuel) industry.

This low-quality item is typically found in cattle feeds and is only rarely used to make pet food.

Although it contains over 40% protein, GDDY would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.

What’s more, less costly plant-based products like this can notably boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the meat content of this dog food.

In addition, we note the inclusion of vegetable oil, a generic oil of unknown origin in this recipe. The ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats in any oil is nutritionally critical and can vary significantly (depending on the source).

Without knowing more, it’s impossible to judge the quality of an item so vaguely described. However, compared to a named animal fat, a generic vegetable oil cannot be considered a quality ingredient.

Next, this recipe contains fructooligosaccharide, an alternative sweetener1 probably used here as a prebiotic. Prebiotics function to support the growth of healthy bacteria in the large intestine.

And lastly, this food also includes chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Royal Canin Breed Health
Nutrition Adult Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Royal Canin Breed Health Nutrition Adult looks like a below-average dry dog food.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 29%, a fat level of 18% and estimated carbohydrates of about 45%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 27% and a mean fat level of 16%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 49% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 59%.

Near-average protein. Near-average fat. And near-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

When you consider the protein-boosting effect of the wheat gluten and corn gluten meal, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a moderate amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Royal Canin Breed Health Nutrition Adult is a plant-based dry dog food using a moderate amount of chicken by-product meal as its main source of animal protein, thus earning the brand 2.5 stars.

Not recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

Royal Canin Dog Food
Recall History

The following list (if present) includes all dog food recalls since 2009 directly related to this product line. If there are no recalls listed in this section, we have not yet reported any events.

You can view a complete list of all dog food recalls sorted by date. Or view the same list sorted alphabetically by brand.

To learn why our ratings have nothing to do with a product’s recall history, please visit our Dog Food Recalls FAQ page.

Get free dog food recall alerts sent to you by email. Subscribe to The Advisor’s recall notification list.

Dog Food Coupons
and Discounts

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Or click the buying tip below. Please be advised we receive a fee for referrals made to the following online store.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

The Dog Food Advisor does not test dog food products.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every review is directly dependent upon the quality of the test results from any specific batch of food a company chooses to publish.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

However, we do receive a fee from Chewy.com for each purchase made as a direct result of a referral from our website. This fee is a fixed dollar amount and has nothing to do with the size of an order or the brand selected for purchase.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

12/18/2015 Last Update

  • Crazy4dogs

    I agree Caru is crazy expensive too. But, Caru is actually food as opposed to a “topper”.

    If you do the math, Caru comes in at $0.36/oz for food as opposed to Purina Pro Plan additions @ $0.78/oz for an “enhancement” and Purina Beyond meal enhancement @ $0.62/oz. Still no bargain. I used the Petsmart site for pricing on Purina’s products and chewy’s price on Caru, but the Caru price seems to be the same on most online sites.

    I’ve seen it in stores in my area for prices varying between $4.50 to $5.75 on the high end, not $7 anywhere around me or online. Using your $7/box it still comes out to $0.56/oz, which is still cheaper per ounce than either Purina product.

    If you are just using these products as “toppers” you might as well cook up a steak and some vegetables since that would be completely fresh, human food, cooked in a human facility (your house) at a fraction of the cost. 😉

  • Bobby dog

    I remember comparing the ingredients and there wasn’t much if any difference. The packaging would be convenient for training, give it a try!

  • aimee

    The Pro Plan is more than the Beyond on the PetSmart site. The Beyonds are 1.99 and the Pro Plan $2.49-$2.99.. hmm I’ll be buying the Beyond to try.

  • aimee

    For sure the cost is high .. paying for the convenience/ novelty/ indulgence factor.

    I did think of one instance where I might use this… and that is as a training reward…a lick as a reinforcer.

  • Bobby dog

    Hi aimee:
    I bought the Beyond puree’s when they hit the market maybe a year or so ago? Bobby only liked the beef and only as a treat not as a topper. I have a few in my cabinet now. I forget the price in my area, but I do recall the Pro Plan was more expensive.

  • aimee

    I agree I’d consider Weruva edible based on their information. And I forgot Caru is another company with the human grade claim.

  • aimee

    PetSmart has it as $2.49-$2.99 but lists them as about 3 oz so still, anyway you look at it, pricey!!

    The pet sore by me sells Caru for 7.00/box. If I were to buy that as a sole diet for my dog it would be $35/day and if i bought as a topper I might as well just buy canned soup instead.

    But I know people who buy Caru.

    Someone must be buying the Purina product cause they haven’t discontinued it.. yet.

  • Shawna

    I use edible and human grade interchangeably but I do know the difference when speaking about ingredients or final product.
    Yes, Weruva is the second. I agree it doesn’t utilize the terminology human grade but is produced, last I researched, in a facility that makes human food. Since facilities that make human food can not also make dog food I would feel comfortable saying it is human grade – edible.
    I was not aware of the Frenchie’s Kitchen. Thanks

  • Shawna

    Most of my fosters have been puppies so crate training has always been a must – for potty training if nothing else.. These little guys will go lay down in their crate when they are tired (unless I’m sitting down —- then they are right next to me). 🙂

  • Cannoli

    Ha Bulldogs are very stubborn. That’s what I love about them. They remind me of me. Pit bulls are such a great breed.

    FYI crate train them bulldoggs will chew your house up. My house walls and window frames paid for my lack of crate training

  • Cannoli

    They don’t sell cuss you can make the exact ingredients in the purina additions yourself for a lot less money

  • Cannoli

    I would buy it if it’s human grade. For me good manufacturing practice in manafacturing, packing, and holding human food is as important in a dog food as it’s ingredients.

    So I checked out Purina additions: it basically food without synthetic vitamins.

    The chicken and pumpkin purée is water, chicken, pumpkin, celery, brown rice, oatmeal. $35 for a case of 14.

    There is nothing of value here. These are all inexpensive ingredients that you can make for less than $35. Talk about being ripped off.

  • Crazy4dogs

    I looked up these products on chewy. The beef formula for the Additions squeeze tube (they look like the toddler squeeze tubes that parents are using) is a whopping $63.59 for 14 4.5 ounce tubes. The low end is $34.99 for chicken. This is just crazy expensive for a squeeze tube topper! You are paying $4.54 per tube for the beef. That’s $1/oz! You could certainly buy better food for that price! That actually makes The Honest Kitchen look like a total bargain! It comes in @ $.61/oz before you add water (again I’m using chewy prices), which would probably bring it down to around the $.30/oz price. This would probably be the comparative price since the Purina version is already hydrated.

    I agree that these products will not likely stay in the line up. My money is on The Honest Kitchen. 😉

  • aimee

    Wow 10 for $10 is great in comparison to the price of Additions .. but I may buy some to try out.

    In case some people don’t understand product labeling I’ll post the written response from Purina verifying that it does indeed meet the standard of edible.

    “All
    of the ingredients and processes used to manufacture, package, ship and
    store Pro Plan Additions meet the USDA and FDA requirements and
    standards for foods edible for humans, as the co-manufacturer that
    Nestle Purina uses to make this product is a facility that manufactures
    only human-edible products.”

    You said you knew 2 companies that can claim “human grade”. I know THK does but what is the other one? Are you speaking of Weruva? They said they don’t use “human grade” to define their products the term isn’t defined but their description sounds like it would meet the conditions to be edible.

    I did find this company http://frenchieskitchen.com/meals/

    I know nothing about them except the website came up on my search.

  • Shawna

    Yeah, those are pricey. I think most of us can do toppers better for less however I do know a few that don’t want to use raw and would go for the convenience of something like this. I still get organic fruit and veggie purees in pouches like this for my grandkids but I stock up on them when they are 10 for $10, or I don’t get them.

    I have to give props to Purina for trying but to be honest I still have a huge trust issue when they attempt to build up Beneful (or Dog / Puppy Chow etc) like they do. I understand different price points in the market place but let’s call a spade a spade.

  • Shawna

    Thank you, Storm’s Mom!!!!!!

  • Shawna

    This one is a little better.

  • Shawna

    Okay….. Technology is kicking my butt tonight. Resizing problems with the photos I wanted to upload… grrr Here’s a pic of the pups and foster dog Lola.

  • Storm’s Mom

    So, you have no sources for your proof/evidence that Purina uses all edible/human grade ingredients in those lines or that it’s “made in a facility that is limited to the production of human food” except a phone call with Purina itself (not an email or any other tangible means). Why am I not surprised?! Why do you demand to see from others external sources you can read before even thinking about whether to accept what they say, but do not live up to that standard yourself… and expect that’ll be ok?

  • aimee

    I thought I’d add some more information. Currently there is no legal definition for “human grade” in pet food regulations. Using the term implies “for human consumption” and the term for that is “edible”

    From AAFCO”

    “Edible is a standard; human-grade is not. For a product to be deemed edible for humans, all ingredients must be human edible and the product must be manufactured, packed and held in
    accordance with federal regulations in 21 CFR 110, Current Good Manufacturing Practice in Manufacturing, Packing, or Holding Human Food.If these conditions are met for a pet food, human-grade claims may be made. If these conditions are not met, then it is an unqualified claim and misbrands the product.

    On the labels for Additions and Beyond Purees are the words “human grade ingredients” The company is making a human grade claim on the legal label.

    Either the company is meeting the claim or the food is misbranded. Misbranding would open Purina up to a lawsuit… which to me would be a very very foolish thing to do… just basic common sense here.

    But to be thorough, I called the company, I was transferred to a supervisor who read to me the specifications of the products. They reported the products met all specifications required to be deemed “edible” and I confirmed that only human foods were produced in the facility where the product is made.

    Now personally, I think these products won’t stay in Purina’s line up for long because they are uber pricey. In my mind I just don’t think that there is a sustainable market for them.

  • Shawna

    YES…..bigger, when full grown, then I take in. I have puppy sat some very large dogs but not fostered. I don’t want to be a forever foster parent to an adult dog I can’t afford to feed. 🙂

    It’s actually very unusual circumstances. The pregnant mama was abandoned by the owner with her disabled sister. The sister’s caregivers said they wouldn’t take on the responsibility of the puppies (10 of them) and mama so they had to be moved as soon as done nursing. Everyone was/is aware of the consequences of this but…. I believe seven or eight of the pups have already been spoken for — one of the ones I have is but they can’t pick him up until the 30th of this month. The other is still looking for a forever home but one of my friends is very interested. 🙂

    I have picks of the pups on my phone. I’ll post a couple here in a second. One is with my grandson and the other with my granddaughter.

  • Storm’s Mom

    They are not human grade …they are, according to Purina itself, “made with real, human grade ingredients”. Big difference. (the use of the word “real” is a nice touch, too.. as opposed to “fake, human grade ingredients”??!)

  • Storm’s Mom

    Hmm, my original comment/response seems to have disappeared, but it appears that the product aimee’s referring to it the Pro Plan Savor Additions. As per usual with aimee, though, there’s far more to the story than she let on:

    http://truthaboutpetfood.com/purina-has-new-product-with-human-grade-ingredients/

    and (at the very end of the article):

    http://truthaboutpetfood.com/a-few-responses/

  • aimee

    Purina’s lines of food that are human grade are Additions and Purees and are for intermittent or supplementary feeding, which in my opinion is what THK should label their foods as being suited for.

    AAFCO has specific guidelines that must be met to be an AAFCO trial. They do require certain blood tests but also weights and veterinary assessment for any conditions that could be from nutritional inadequacies. To answer your question no, AAFCO trials are not only based on bloodwork.

    And yes some companies go far beyond what AAFCO requires.

  • Storm’s Mom

    I’m guessing it’s Pro Plan Savor Additions: http://truthaboutpetfood.com/purina-has-new-product-with-human-grade-ingredients/

    As per usual with aimee, there’s far more to the story than she let on.

  • Crazy4cats

    Bulldog/Pitbull mix? They are quite a bit larger breed than you usually take in, aren’t they? What were you thinking? Lol! I bet they are adorable, entertaining and a handful. Do they have medical issues, or just need to be taken care of until old enough for a permanent home?

  • Shawna

    Purina – finished product / human grade….. I’m a bit shocked by this info.. What’s the name of that product?

    The parameters of the feeding trial is every bit as important, in my opinion, as doing a feeding trial at all. I know that some companies do longer ones and some shorter but the required length is only going to show certain issues. Do you know what they specifically look for at the end? Do they check blood work only as an example?

    Off topic – I just started fostering two male six week old English Bulldog / Pitbull mixes… Nine dogs including two puppies — Bulldog puppies…….stubborn What was I thinking!!! LOL My other foster, Lola, is a Dachshund – apparently another very stubborn breed. I think I’ll be done with the stubborn breeds after these three – for a while at least. 🙂

  • aimee

    I agree.. absolutely… a diet formulated to meet an AAFCO profile can fail a feeding trial. It is why when posters here ask for advice on what to feed a puppy, as one of my recommendations, I advise to chose a food that has been through a feeding trial.

    Purina also makes a finished product that meets the USDA definition :for edible .. commonly referred to as “human grade” It is made in a facility that is limited to the production of human food

  • Storm’s Mom

    Most likely to help would be ensuring she’s drinking more water, exercising her more, and/or reducing the amount of fiber you’re feeding her. Beyond those 3, the other possibilities are that she’s eaten something she shouldn’t have, or it’s a medical issue (thyroid, for example)

  • sharron

    what about the straining? that’s not normal

  • Storm’s Mom

    That might be because she’s absorbing/utilizing the rest of the ingredients, therefore leaving little “waste”? ..which is actually a good thing! I hesitate to say “try feeding her a little bit more and see if more comes out of her” because of your penchant for tinkering with her food, but in this case it might be the only way to find out what’s up.

  • sharron

    straining and what she can poop out is a really, really small amt – she’s prone to constipation than diarrhea

  • Shawna

    What are her symptoms?

  • Shawna

    I also know that a diet balanced to AAFCO guidelines can fail feeding trials.

    I should have worded that better – only two companies that use entirely human grade ingredients and have a finished product that can be sold as human grade — hence the court of law comment.

  • sharron

    i have had Lexee on Nature’s Variety Small Breed Dry with Precise Beef and Vegetables canned, which she has been eating well, now she’s constipated – think i will have to put her back on Royal Canin since she doesn’t get constipated on RC, and here i thought everything was going so well….sigh

  • Crazy4cats

    Yikes!!! Let’s hope you don’t have to make that choice! 😀

  • aimee

    You said THK is one of only 2 companies that use human grade…. Purina also produces some “human grade” products.

    Purina makes a variety of foods at various price points. I’d consider their foods to be low to moderate cost. their low cost products will utilize low cost ingredients. Low cost ingredients can still be of high quality.

    If I had to choose between feeding my dog a diet solely of either Beneful or of THK, I’d choose Beneful. I know you don’t understand that. But I think you do understand that a diet of human grade ingredients can be the worst possible diet to feed when not correctly balanced.

  • Azul

    Beneful and quality is an oxymoron.
    I would definitely never feed a Purina product.

  • Shawna

    Well that AND ensuring the quality of ingredients. — One of only TWO companies that use human grade and can prove it in a court of law… Just sayin……

    Purina, rather then bettering their product, releases a massive add campaign to ensure folks their lowest quality food is “top quality dog food”.
    “There are no short cuts. We go above and beyond to make sure you have top-quality dog food. My dogs love it,” says Brandon, an Ingredient Unloader.

    “We know Beneful is a quality, nutritious, safe dog food,”

    More than 9.5 million households feed their dogs Beneful each day and in 2014 alone, 1.5 billion Purina Beneful meals were served to 15 million happy, healthy dogs.” http://newscenter.purina.com/2015-06-08-I-Stand-Behind-Beneful-Advertising-Campaign-Showcases-Purina-Pride

    Who here, of the regulars, feeds or even would feed their dog Beneful? Who here feels Beneful is a quality, let alone “top quality” dog food? Talk about a waste of money. Just my opinion though…

  • aimee

    I think some companies get away with a lot….and make up their own rules as they go.

    Of course processing into kibble alters biovailability… and companies, through the feeding of the products they make and monitoring the animals that eat them, ensure the nutrients in their food are able to be well utilized.

    THK doesn’t do this. But I did just read an article/announcement in this months Pet AGE magazine that The Honest Kitchen has just invested in on line price monitoring software to ensure that their products are sold for the high prices that they want them to sell for. That’s where the company chose to put their investment dollars.

    Looks to me like they deemed making sure that their products are priced as they want them to be priced as being more important than ensuring their diets meet a dog’s nutrient needs.

  • CrazyDogLady

    I think all of you people are crazy even thinking about feeding your dogs processed scrap food by products…. I grow my own vegetables and raise my own cows and chicken both of which are totally fed only organic plants that are cleaned daily with natural spring water…. When I slaughter them… Sorry… When I gently lay them to their final rest, I choose only the finest cuts and toss all that by product in recycled bags that I sell to the dog food companies…. My veggies (no corn cause there isn’t any real nutritional value there) …. Never get sprayed with pesticides … I am constantly and gently relocating all aphids and other pesky pests to the neighbors garden… Twice a day I make a wonderful 7 course meal for my dog…. What she doesn’t eat… I toss…. How can one serve left overs to their dog is beyond me…. But back to the point. I think it is very cruel and inhumane to feed a dog any processed dog food. ………..

    Nah… Not really. I feed my poor lil chihuahuas royal canin and they seem to be fine, happy and unscratchy. Not sure how they have lived all these years with this food. But I guess what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger…..

  • Shawna

    Oh, I get that Crazy4cats!! I feel you are very fair in your posts and I enjoy them.

    I should note – maybe you already know this, foods can pass either feeding trials OR the AAFCO nutrient profile and that foods that pass nutrient profiles may not pass feeding trials and vice versa. I’m betting you’ve heard of the complete and balanced diet created from old shoe leather, motor oil etc and formulated, to make a point, by the founder of Hills, Dr. Mark Morris. The AAFCO nutrient profile is definitely better than nothing though.

  • Crazy4cats

    Just to be perfectly clear, I was not targeting THK specifically. I was addressing possible deficiencies in any and all commercial prepared food. I just feel like it’s important that all companies nutritional profiles are correct and meet all the necessary guidelines to protect everyone’s pups due to the fact that most do not supplement, add variety or rotate. Honestly, I wish my dogs would have done better on THK. It makes a very convenient topper.

  • Shawna

    I wanted to confirm this before I mentioned it here. When Ebony was diagnosed her vet gave her “a month or less” to live. That was five weeks ago. My girlfriend just told me that Ebony has had “her best week yet” this past week and improves from week to week. She has bad days but overall keeps improving. We’re crossing our fingers and hoping for the best. Oh, and Ebony is no longer my friends “foster dog”. No matter the outcome, she is at her forever home!! Yay for Ebs!!!

  • Pitlove

    Thanks for the tip! I have her email so I will mention the hemp oil as well.

  • Shawna

    Thanks Pitlove,

    I hope she finds the right combination and can help her baby fight the cancer!!! If you run into her again, tell her that therapeutic grade hemp oil is a very promising product for cancer. It is high in the CBDs shown to fight cancer but is very low in the THC that makes cannabis both illegal (in many places) and undesirable. Copaiba oil also has many of the benefits found in cannabis without the THC and isn’t horribly expensive (like therapeutic hemp oil can be).

    My girlfriend’s foster Newfie, Ebony, is currently fighting a VERY aggressive form of cancer in her mouth (can’t remember name) that is causing her teeth to fall out. Ebony has good days and bad days but after starting a regimen similar to what I was doing Ebony is doing by far better than before. Friend also includes raw honey (in order to get Ebony to eat the turmeric) and gives her dog treats with small amounts of therapeutic grade hemp oil.

  • Shawna

    Dr. Jean Hofve, who spends a lot of time at AAFCO meetings, has some thoughts on this.

    “These two systems necessarily miss a lot of potential problems. A food meeting the Nutrient Profile may or may not pass a feeding trial; and foods that have passed a feeding trial don’t have to meet all specifications of the Nutrient Profiles. Clearly, it would be possible for a marginal food to pass these tests, yet fail to provide adequate nutrition in the long run, and in fact such problems are well documented……A former FDA nutritionist emphasizes, “The formulation method does not account for palatability or availability of nutrients. Yet a feeding trial can miss some chronic deficiencies or excesses.”

    As mentioned above, some states test only the Guaranteed Analysis information (crude protein, crude fat, fiber, moisture). Others test individual nutrients (amino acids, vitamins, minerals) as well. Nearly every manufacturer has had one or more foods fail one or more tests at one time or another. Many foods fall short on the stated protein levels. Some are too high in ash or fiber. Even more ominous is the failure of tests for major minerals such as phosphorus or calcium. The manufacturers assert that tests on any particular batch or lot of food may not be representative of all their foods, but because such failures are so widespread, from the cheapest generic to the most specialized and expensive foods, it is a very disturbing trend.” http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/pet-food-regulation/

    If she is correct, complete and balanced foods aren’t so complete and balanced. She talks about excesses of certain vitamins / minerals and their long term consequences as well.

    I will note she does say this but most of the products we are familiar with ship nationally. “The national manufacturers stick closer to the rules; if they ship nationally, they pretty much have to make their products to whichever state standards are the strictest.”

    I personally don’t think anyone should feel safe feeding any one food long term or especially for life.

  • zoe the chow

    Hi Crazy4cats,

    You just described the main reason why I don’t recommend homemade diets to every dog parent. There are many people who just feed the same kibble, day in and day out, year after year.

    They only change if something happens like extended vomiting, refusal to eat, diarrhea, food is no longer made, or something more serious like diabetes, pancreatitis, or?

    They want to open a bag and pour it in a bowl, end of story! I think this is one of the reasons vets who might “know better” recommend foods from the big companies to their clients. How could they in good conscience recommend a homemade diet without thoroughly educating someone on how to prepare and balance it?

    I’ve met people who are so proud of the fact that feed their dogs chicken and rice every day, instead of kibble. I try to hide my horror as I explain about the need for calcium and…

    I also see the problems with smaller companies like THK, who might have the best intentions, and the highest quality ingredients, but lack the nutritional expertise to formulate a diet that is nutritionally complete.

    So in the end, Crazy, I have to agree with you that the “best” foods are not always the best choice!

  • Crazy4dogs
  • Azul

    You just hit the nail right on the freakin head!!

  • Amateria

    We used to have friends(they kinda hate us now, as they believe we made up the stolen purses story about their friend >.>) anyways they used to chug down pills, they had an entire cupboard full, eventually they got super sick from it and stopped chugging them completely.

  • Pitlove

    Hi Shawna-

    I just passed this information along to a regular customer of ours looking for a holistic and more natural way to help her very old Lab who has cancer. Thanks for posting this.

  • Crazy4cats

    Hi Shawna-
    I agree with a lot of what you say and respect how you feed your pups. But, the problem is that the average pet owner does not follow the same regimen. There are pet supply stores on every corner. The majority of what they sell is kibble. Most all of my friends and family only feed their dogs dry food. Ugg, some won’t even add water. On top of that, they feed the same kibble every day forever!

    So, let’s hope they are buying from a company that makes sure that their food truly is complete, balanced and their nutritional values are all where they need to be to keep everyone’s furries healthy.

  • theBCnut

    I haven’t yet seen a food that had the shear amount of tapioca in it that this food has of rice. The only foods I’ve seen with tapioca in them use tapioca specifically as an unusual carb source, since kibble has to have some kind of binder. But you can interpret the use of tapioca any way you prefer.

  • Cannoli

    so true. we saw this with humans in the late 90s and into this decade about how synthetic vitamins became a national obsession. that humans would never achieve opitmal health unless we chugged down on a daily basis our multi vitamins, our fish pills etc.

    now we have studies that all these synthetic vitamins are actually harming our bodies

  • theBCnut

    I’ve found that common sense is anything but common.

  • Cannoli

    ‘lab created and/or isolated nutrients aren’t used by the body in the same manner as those made by mother nature. Not to mention the nutrients like k2, tocotrienols and omega 3, not to mention those that haven’t even been discovered yet, that aren’t even considered a requirement.’

    i agree 1000x on this statement

  • aquariangt

    The (not so?) shocking thing is people have no problems agreeing with this statement when it comes to humans:

    “There’s a whole community, and I am one of them, that feel lab created and/or isolated nutrients aren’t used by the body in the same manner as those made by mother nature”

    and yet for dogs, it’s a whole uproar. #shrug really. But like you said, there’s a lot of common sense that gets ignored when looking into this.

  • Shawna

    Not at the manufacturer’s request.

    It makes me wonder if they can’t enforce existing laws what might companies try to get away with? There is apparently a law which would exclude 4D animals from being used (as it should) but it’s done anyway.

    What does processing of kibble do to bioavailability? There’s a whole community, and I am one of them, that feel lab created and/or isolated nutrients aren’t used by the body in the same manner as those made by mother nature. Not to mention the nutrients like k2, tocotrienols and omega 3, not to mention those that haven’t even been discovered yet, that aren’t even considered a requirement.

    I’ll continue using THK (and even recommending it) because I know the quality of the ingredients to at least be acceptable for human consumption however I don’t feel ANY processed food (even if AAFCO compliant) is truly complete and balanced for every dog so I’ll continue to rotate and include nutrient dense, whole food supplements and toppers.

  • aimee

    If the company sends the food out to a independent lab how is this not outside testing?

    You asked “Why hasn’t anyone stepped in?” .. Simply put I think it is lack of funds for proper regulation… too few feed control officials and too many products.

    Recall, Grandma Lucy’s self reported their diet as deficient for years and years and no one stepped in I contacted my state feed control official. The difference between GL and THK is that they put their deficiencies right on their label.. a legal document. And still it was over a year(?) from when I got wrote to the feed official to when action was taken. And yet still in the stores I see GL with the old labeling.

    Years ago when I asked about multiple underreported nutrients in this tables THK told me that one of the nutrients I inquired about was a typo ..and immediately changed it. but not for any of the others. For over 2 years now I’ve inquired multiple times about the reported Vit E level in Keen, reported at 23.45IU/kg and AAFCO requires 50 IU/kg and I’ve been told their numbers are accurate and the tables were all checked and verified..except for this most recent inquiry when I was told it was a typo. All very very odd.

    Because the company reports their diets do not meet AAFCO, while at the same time saying they do meet AAFCO I was very interested and enthused when in 2014 THK advertised on their site that they were planning AAFCO feeding trials and that their diets were being reviewed by a boarded veterinary nutritionist.

    In 2015 i asked what the outcome was. Turns out THK didn’t do any AAFCO trials, they just advertised that they were going to do them, but they did have the review done. Lucy, the CEO wrote to me “The review of our nutritional profiles comparing AAFCO and NRC guidelines was completed last year ….The product of his work will be published as a document for veterinarians and / or may be utilized as part of a separate project for the professional veterinary channel once we’ve solidified or (sic)strategy for that”

    I’ve never found the review published anyplace so this year I asked THK about it and they replied with a link to the “skin and coat trial” Ummm that isn’t what I asked about so I asked again and they replied that when Lucy wrote, the skin and coat trial wasn’t published but now it was. Again with the skin and coat trial!!! Grrrr I asked a third time and the third reply was that “NRC profiles for our diets are not available.” ( A reply that i found most amusing ) ARRGH I asked a fourth time and this time Lucy replied that the company decided not to publish the findings.

    Why that couldn’t have been said on my first inquiry .. I don’t know. but isn’t it interesting that they advertised the review was being done, the CEO herself told me it was being published for all to see and then…. the company elects to not disclose the findings.

    Gosh if “the mom and pop and start up companies have far less monies to spend on such things[looking for typos].” That is really really scary because they have so few products to check. It would only take a few minutes. If they can’t afford to pay an employee for 10 min to look for typos and correct them what else can’t they afford to pay employees for???

    And if you can’t get something that simple right can we trust the company to do something complicated.. like formulate a diet and take into consideration what the dehydration process does to bioavailability?

  • Shawna

    Good morning aimee.

    I actually meant outside testing – by the authorities as an example.

    IF the food truly is deficient in any nutrient and they are purposefully trying to HIDE that fact, then shame on them and any other that might do this. I thought this is why pet foods were regulated to prevent such things? Why hasn’t anyone stepped in?

    IF however they are typos I’m not going to get too upset about it. Purina likely has a whole team of people dedicated to making sure these types of things don’t happen. I’m sure the mom and pop and start up companies have far less monies to spend on such things.

    One final thought, as you know nutrients can change from batch to batch. This is common sense. Not every company has the ability to test every batch but I personally wouldn’t avoid their food because of that. I definitely would however feed a variety of foods from different companies and add nutrient dense toppers ensuring a wider variety of nutrients and better overall health.

  • aimee

    Hi Cannoli,

    I was referring to comments like this “Your vet recommended it because when your dog crashes and burns from
    this crap food he will reap the rewards from it. Cha ching cha ching”

    and this ” Royal Canon is **** food and always has been” (edited by moderator)

    and this ” great that your dog is apparently doing great on RC” which I took to mean that the dog only looks well but really isn’t well.

    I always thought the original purpose of the comment section was for people to report their actual experiences when feeding the diets. But posters get attacked when they report a favorable experience with a food that isn’t liked by other posters. Then the OP gets defensive and it all goes down hill from there.

    The OP didn’t understand why the food was only 2.5 stars…. and yes she said “Shame on …”

    An explanation that of the nine “tips” Dr. Mike recommends to use to find a superior dog food the rating given only has to do with Tip number 1 and different rating would be likely if the other 8 parameters were taken into account would be a kind response.

    I don’t put a lot of weight on the label ingredients, so a food given 2.5 stars based solely on that particular parameter doesn’t mean much to me… the other 8 are also very important. If they weren’t I don’t think Dr Mike would continue to keep the article describing all 9 ways to evaluate a food in such a prominent place on his site.

    There is only so much you can tell from a label, which is why nutritionists caution against evaluating a food by its label. Ingredients eh… they give you some information. But you can’t tell the quality of an ingredient from the name, or even if it was handled correctly or processed properly.

    Beef could be large pieces of quality muscle or it could be a sprinkling of muscle attached to a lot of fat, tendons, and blood vessels, with some skin and hair thrown in for good measure.

    In either case the “beef” could have been transported under refrigeration or.. maybe it was left in a hot semi all day. Who knows?

    In regards to brewers rice ..as crazy4dogs posted, brewers rice and white rice have the same nutrient profile. And while it is primarily carbohydrate… it has a heck of a lot more nutrients in it than say tapioca which is also a highly processed carbohydrate source. Yet no one seems to vilify tapioca. Makes no sense to vilify rice and not vilify tapioca. 5 star food with and without tapioca are also “pumped up”.

    Chicken by product meal can be quality chicken muscle, giblets and bone. or it could be made with a high content of poorly digested components, like feet. You can’t tell from the name.

    People often assume chicken meal is superior to by product meal but it may not be. could be that the chicken meal is sourced from rib racks.. the rib section stripped of meat which is essentially bone and connective tissue with a sprinkling of meat. between the ribs. The by product meal would in fact be far more nutritious because of the included organs.

    I don’t see anyplace that the OP said their vet has hidden super knowledge of brewers rice just that her vet recommended RC and her dog is doing well on it.

    It could be that her vet recommends RC based on his/her experience with the brand, or could be that it was recommended because it is a brand veterinary nutritionists recommend, or could have been recommended for any number of reasons.

  • aimee

    Hi Shawna,

    In regards to this statement “if they really even are shortcomings as they haven’t been professionally tested to determine this as far as I know”

    It is the companies themselves that report their diets have been professionally tested.

    For example The Honest Kitchen wrote: “All of our foods are analyzed in a 3rd party independent laboratory” and “The nutrient profiles we have are the
    most accurate data we have available.”

    But when I compared their reported nutrient analysis to AAFCO they come up short. When i inquired about one of the nutrients THK responded “According
    to our master profile for Love, the folic acid is .25 on a DM basis. I
    will have this error corrected on our website( and it was corrected
    almost immediately). I’m happy to check through our other online
    nutrient profiles to make sure these have all been uploaded accurately,
    and have any errors corrected.”

    Later I inquired if there were any further typos in the tables or if all were corrected and they said ” any discrepancies or any adjustments needing to be made will be made as required.

    Now nearly two years later those same shortcomings are still being reported. For example Halcyon’s pantothenic acid level is reported as 0.75mg/kg and AAFCO min is 10 mg/kg…. less then 10% of the requirement.

    Comparing Purina to THK :Purina tested and self reported that a limited quantity of their product didn’t meet their specifications and recalled it.

    THK tested and self reported that their diet does not meet AAFCO yet they have never recalled the product and they continue to produce and sell their product year after year and year in its self reported deficient state.

    The Hills marketing piece “Old Shoes” merely showed you could meet a guaranteed analysis …. not an AAFCO profile.
    http://www.hillspet.ca/newsletters/Canada/Assets/2012/January/cat/Old-Shoes_Hills-Pet-January-eNewsletter_English.pdf

    Hope this helps to clarify the issues for you

  • Crazy4cats

    You can rate this site and the food on this site however you wish. All dogs and their owners are different. He had to come up with a system to rate all foods by their ingredient panel. It would be impossible to rate foods based on how well dogs do on every food. They are all rated with the exact same formula. Where else can you find a such a huge free list of foods with their ingredients and guaranteed analysis listed and updated about every 18 months? Apparently, this food is a 5 star food in your household. That’s great you found something that works well for you and your pet. What kind of dog/dogs do you have?

  • Joshua Doucette

    I rate your website 1 star out of 5, because you rated such a great and well-respected brand of dog food as 2.5 stars.

  • Shawna

    Sorry, missed that. I’m specifically interested in antiangiogenic foods. I recently read raw honey is antiangiogenic as well.

    So sorry about your Husky!!

  • Amateria

    I just looked up the Purina part, I’m going to read it in a second but are they serious! This is so sad even if it is from last year… Tsk tsk tsk.

  • Shawna

    I don’t think the shortcomings of a few, if they really even are shortcomings as they haven’t been professionally tested to determine this as far as I know, can be extrapolated to the many that get it right.

    Additionally, I think it was, the original owner of Science Diet who did an experiment showing that shoe leather, sawdust, motor oil and a vitamin / mineral supplement could meet AAFCO nutrient profiles. It’s complete and balanced but I think we can all agree that the nutrients provided are inadequate to sustain health. It IS, in my opinion, all about the ingredients.

    Purina — their launch of the “I Stand Behind Beneful” campaign told me all I needed to know about their integrity. Just my opinion though.

  • Shawna

    I haven’t been able to find strictly A2 milk–raw milk is illegal in Nebraska. I contacted Organic Valley to see if their milk was A2 or A1. They told me they had both but mixed them together so the product sold at the store is both. I’ve tried raw milk at my folks house in Colorado but don’t know if it was A1 or A2. At the time I didn’t know about A1 / A2. Since that time they moved and no longer have access to raw.

    Interesting that you know about A1 / A2. I don’t find many that are familiar with the potential consequences of A1.

    Yes, I do react to goat milk but it takes more of it to cause symptoms.

  • Shawna

    Hi zoe the chow,

    I can’t say that any one thing was more beneficial than another but I used everything I had on hand or could easily get to fight it. I’m not sure what kind the cancer was. The rescue president, vet and vet tech likely know but I never asked. Actually I didn’t really know that she was as ill as she was until I took her in for the follow up visit. That’s when I learned they didn’t expect her to live. I do know that they were small, very hard (jagged and stone like and somewhat movable (I didn’t aggressively try to move them) bumps just under the skin.

    In addition to a variety of commercial raw foods I added a small amount of garlic off and on, fresh berries when I could get them, turmeric paste, probiotics, raw goat milk and fermented fish stock, spirulina and chlorella mixed with enzymes.

    I applied copaiba oil daily for the first month or so and frankincense oil a couple times a week. As mentioned I don’t have a lot of toxins in my home that would impede her progress – no carpeting and very little particle board furniture (formaldehyde off gassing). My furniture is old so no or low off gassing from stain guard, etc.

    Probably most important however is that Lola has a strong will and a strong and happy spirit.

  • zoe the chow

    Hi Shawna,

    That’s incredible!!! Please tell us more about what you did, I’m sure everyone would like to have your recipes! What type or types of cancer was she dealing with?

    I tried the original anti-angiogenic “Navy Protocol” which consisted of the drugs celebrex, tamoxifen and doxycycline, but I had no luck with it and my husky passed away 8 weeks after being diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma, which I know is a particularity virile form of cancer.

    After that I sort of lost interest in the whole anti-angiogenesis movement

  • zoe the chow

    Hi Shawna,

    Do you have the same symptoms with goat products or A2 milk?

  • Amateria

    Aww that’s too cute! With crazy amounts of real food like that you really do need to look for specials, otherwise it would be back to kibble 😛

  • Crazy4dogs

    You don’t even want to know what my dog food bills are. Fortunately, I’m a coupon/sale guru! My husband looks at the crock pot and says: “Wow, what smells good? Oh, yeah! It’s for the dogs!” 😉

  • Crazy4dogs

    Hi Pitlove,

    As you know, I feed a variety of all kinds of food, in rotation. My problem with many of the well known manufacturers, often praised by aimee, is that your can put in a bunch of substandard ingredients, add the approved vitamin pack, and all is good.

    My own personal belief is that ALL LIVING CREATURES should be fed more more fresh food that is species appropriate. Vitamin packs, or not, that is what they need.

  • Amateria

    That must be a crazy amount of food you go through, I was watching raw feeders on YouTube recently(really hate the comments on those I don’t know why I torture myself reading them) some guy had an entire kitchen full of containers and he was like this lasts 2 weeks! And I was like how long? Holy hell, but yeah at least they eat raw, lucky dogs.

  • Pitlove

    I actually wasn’t referring to or thinking about the recent Purina recall, as improper balance of nutrients and/or food testing low on certain nutrients is not an ongoing issue with them. I was mostly referring to the companies Aimee has discussed in the past that have this as an ongoing issue. And yes, I agree that it is something that needs to be regulated better and resolved.

  • Amateria

    Wow those are some hairy things you get, I guess it’s similar to me with carbs and sugar, I know I’ll be in hell from too much sugar and yet I still eat it when I get a severe mood for it.

    As for the carbs, if I eat too much I puke and yet I tend to overindulge on bread, because it’s so darned delicious.

    I have inflammation of the knees and back, about 15 minutes of walking and I can’t take it anymore, most of the time my mum gives me no choice though, as she’s a clothes addict and drags me all over the place, sitting relieves it so I always look for a chair but 99% of the time there isn’t one…

  • Crazy4dogs

    Fresh food is probably the most important thing any animal can eat. I know that kibble has a variety of ratings, and I’ve fed them for years to my dogs, but, ultimately, no living thing should be eating processed, dry kibble, no matter how well it’s rated. I have to adjust, since I have so many large dogs and fosters, but they all get fresh every day and I use natural antiinflamatory foods.

  • Shawna

    My symptoms from dairy are inflammatory in nature and they vary. I can get arthritis in my knees, itchy scalp, diarrhea, I’ve had inflammation in my jaw line so bad that it makes my teeth loose. One time it will be lower right side and the next time I cheat and have dairy it could be upper left side. I get incontinent, ear troubles and so on. I also had hypothyroid, iron anemia and b12 anemia which were all caused by the dairy. You would think I could give it up with all that going on but I’ve learned to accept and deal with the symptoms. I don’t cheat all the time but often enough.

  • Amateria

    If I had to choose to eat chocolatte 😛 or have acne and severe itching and puffiness in that one area that hates my guts literally(pudendal neuralgia ftw… No not really) than I would prefer to just not eat the chocolatte.

    Ate two very sugary churros yesterday and had to drink a very large amount of kefir, a tablespoon of yacon syrup and a 50 billion bacteria capsule and I’m still puffy so hell to the NO!

    :O someone was bad I saw that upvote suddenly go down down hehe.

    Nother edit! I really wish I didn’t have such a big problem with sugar it really is no fun at all! I do indulge like crazy on that certain week of the month though hehe *maniacle laughter ensues*

  • Crazy4dogs

    AHHHH…CHOCOLATE! It’s just so d**n good!!! 🙂

  • Amateria

    I’ve stopped chocolate almost completely, just a few alcohol filled ones here and there and miraculously most of my acne went away when I did, be mindful that I had been battling the acne for about 13 years with no end in sight, super miracle indeed.

    You will never stop me from eating cheese though, I simply couldn’t! It’s too good! It also doesn’t trigger a lactose reaction in me which is awesome!

  • Shawna

    That’s incredible.

    If I don’t get my act together I won’t have longevity on my side. I LOVE dairy products (mainly milk chocolate and cheese) but am sensitive to the casein protein so eating the stuff causes inflammation and symptoms. Some day I vow to COMPLETELY give it up but I’ll be 50 the end of this year and it hasn’t happened yet so…… 🙂

  • Amateria

    Wow I did not know that those things were that powerful thanks for that I’ll save it to my notes in case I ever need to use it on someone hehe.

    And to think I’ve read about all that stuff for my food and never really realised their full potentials humph!

  • Shawna

    I agree!! Not only removing what could be triggering the cancer but also their are foods KNOWN to kill tumors. My favorite source of information on this is a Ted TV talk given by Oncologist Dr. William Lee. The talk is called “Can we eat to starve cancer”. Foods like fresh berries, broccoli, garlic, turmeric, pineapple and so on can actually cut off the blood supply to a tumor, thus starving it to death. Cool huh!!!

    Certain other foods like garlic, turmeric and an enzyme in pineapple called bromelain can actually help to prevent cancer by causing apoptosis (which is basically the cancer cell committing suicide before it can grow).

  • Crazy4dogs

    I agree completely!!! I come from a very long lived family, however, lifestyle has definitely been a factor in who lived longest. I have seen it firsthand. Some members lived very long, over 100, some died in their 60-70’s. I have lived long enough that, in retrospect, you could almost see it by the lifestyle.

  • Amateria

    I have read the miracle kibble or whatever the people had changed over to from the lower rated stuff stories and truth be told they are always amazing to read, people may not want to believe that if a dog has tumors that food is sometimes the culprit of making them larger and removing said food the tumors are suddenly smaller or even gone, but it does happen and it should always be tested out before simply giving up.

  • sharron

    yes he did eat dry, day in and day out, this was quite a few years ago, when i didn’t know that much about dog food – i didn’t read labels back then, didn’t know much about Orijen.
    so when you switch foods, should they be similar to each other, in the way of GA etc.

  • Shawna

    Food for thought…..From what I’ve read, in most cases, genetics plays a role in how disease will express (breast cancer or heart disease as examples) but it is lifestyle factors that trigger the expression.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Hi sharron,

    I don’t want to dissuade you from the forum, but I’m not sure why you are here. You post on every dog site on the internet.

    If you want to feed RC, by all means that is your perogative. Just feed it to your dog and it’s done. You have been posting for over 5 years on almost every dog food site on the internet. You have defended RC and inquired about better foods. To be perfectly honest, there is no magic pill. Some dogs can eat complete crap and live forever, some can eat great food and live only a short life span. Genetics play a huge role. I have family members that fed a decent food, and lost a Golden Retriever at 6 from cancer. Goldens are prone to cancer. I have also seen Goldens that are 15 years old.

    In my many years of owning all types of animals, I have found that our family dogs live longer with less invasive surgery, neutering, shots, flea treatments, and better, more natural food. My family dogs have always gotten the scraps leftover from dinner, and were more than happy for them. They lived long lives. I personally choose to feed my dogs more natural food, including raw, kibble, canned and home cooked and they live well past their “life expectancy”. I choose to use more natural ingredients for my dogs and fosters. That’s what I choose. But, ultimately, the decisions for your dog are up to you.

  • Shawna

    PS — My current foster dog, a weiner dog named Lola, came to me “riddled with cancer” – those were the vets words. She had about 10 tumors on her belly. Six months after I got her I took her back to the vet for an eval to see if she was healthy enough to be spayed and to remove the tumors. She only had one tumor left. Both the vet and vet tech told me they though they were sending her (during her intake evaluation) home for hospice care. They didn’t think she would survive. Not only did she have cancer but she also had an enlarged spleen, abdominal bloating/inflammation, a hernia and (I’m forgetting the other thing).

    Diet was not the only thing I did but it was mostly what I did. I also added essential oils that are known to kill cancer as well as supplements like garlic and turmeric. Food can heal and prevent disease.

    Edit to include — I should note that my home is very clean of toxins. I don’t use candles (which give off carcinogens), I don’t use dryer sheets (which are chemical toxic wastes), we don’t treat our lawn or use chemicals to clean our house etc. All of this, in my opinion, also played a role in Lola’s recovery.

  • Shawna

    KIBBLE in and of itself is a risk factor for cancer. Dr. Demian Dressler of the Dog Cancer Blog discusses why – when proteins and carbohydrates (starches) are cooked at high temperatures carcinogens are formed. They know this is true in human foods as well and recommend we limit the amount of barbecued and deep fried foods we eat. Did your dog eat kibble his whole life?

    “Dog Food: Is There A Cancer Risk?” http://www.dogcancerblog.com/blog/dog-food-is-there-a-cancer-risk/

    It’s actually best to feed a variety of foods. Why limit yourself, Lexee, to just one food? Would you ever eat the same food day in / day out for weeks, months and years at a time. No — 1. because it isn’t healthy to do so and 2. because it would get horribly boring.

  • Shawna

    The living environment, mental stimulation, nutritional status of the parents etc are all factors in optimal health but diet is at the top of the list. The very cells of your body are MADE from the nutrients you take in.

  • Crazy4dogs

    I really didn’t want to get involved in this, but here are the real definitions of “brewer’s rice”. It is by no means a nutritional source:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewers_rice

  • Amateria

    Rusty started getting this real bad and not just because he’s a chihuahua, I have an old photo of him on my mums Facebook and he has no drainage whatsoever, I noticed he’s getting less now when we added some organs to his diet, added rice back and added the Ivory Coat fish formula but it’s still not quiet back to the way it was.

    I seriously am unable to pinpoint it as well, could just be a deficiency maybe? I’ll keep an eye on his eyes with this new addition and see how they go and hope I find the cause, because they make him look really bad haha.

  • Shawna

    Oops, I reread your post and think I misunderstood what you were stating with my last post.

    I believe you are saying that certain foods, that are stated to be complete and balanced, when analyzed are not actually balanced. I would agree that that is actually a problem and should be addressed. This is one of the reasons why some of us feel rotation is so necessary.

    The last company I heard to have an issue with this (that was actually recalled not suspected of being deficient) was Purina Beneful and ProPlan products.

  • sharron

    it’s like i said before, Darby, my Rough Collie was fed Orijen and he had cancer twice and past away when he was only 9 – you can’t always blame the food – luck of the draw i guess – i have 2 neighbours, 1 feeds Beneful and his dog is nearly 8 and the lady beside feeds her dog Cesar dry and wet and her dog is nearly 9, both dogs are very healthy. and i’m sure if i fed lexee these foods she would be sicker than a dog. I am not a slow bunny, my problem is that i see both sides to the great dog food debate and this is why i have trouble making a decision on what food to feed. She likes RC and also Nature’ Variety Instinct Small Breed Turkey and Duck

  • Shawna

    Just about EVERY kibble has below minimums on certain nutrients. Hence, the usually very long, list of synthetically derived and/or isolated nutrients added in at the end.

    If you look at a raw diet with minimal ingredients they almost always, if not always, have FAR fewer nutrients that are required to be added in. So it’s 1. the quality of the ingredients being used and 2. the processing that necessitates the inclusion of added nutrients.

    I’m not at all opposed to by-products – they are utilized in most balanced raw diets – but if a food has “corn gluten meal” or “wheat gluten” they are using inferior sources of proteins – one of only two macronutrients required in the diet. And even then those proteins don’t supply all the amino acids needed — as seen by the added taurine, l-lysine, dl-methionine and l-carnitine.

    You mentioned digestibility, which is important, but how the body uses what is digested is more important.

  • Pitlove

    Personally, I feel marketing plays a bigger role in it than we think or would care to admit. Admittedly, we don’t want to feed a food that others say is of poor quality, will kill our dog, or is under scrutiny from other companies trying to find a niche in the pet food industry. Dog food has become more about trends and fads than nutrition in the last few years. Many people forget that their dog should be the one to tell you how he/she is doing on the food.

    Shawna is right in that disease can take time to manifest, however do we really know if changing the dogs diet to raw, home cooked or a “higher quality” kibble would have prevented the disease? I don’t believe we would know or ever could. How do you explain the almost 20 year old healthy poodle that came to the groomer I worked for, fed nothing but Kibbles N’ Bits her entire life? Chalk it up to good genetics? Can good genetics override poor nutrition and vice versa? Idk.

  • Pitlove

    No, what I was stating is that there are formulas within certain companies that report below what AAFCO has set for minimums. I believe Aimee has discussed this before and provided the math part of it that I am terrible at!

  • sharron

    Hi Shawna, and thank you for the explanation. It makes a lot more sense to me now – i bought a bag of
    Nature’s Variety Small Breed with Raw Boost this afternoon – she hasn’t tried this one so will see how it goes

  • Shawna

    Hi sharron,

    I think people often look at disease in a very skewed way. They assume that if their, or their dog’s, blood work is fine that they are healthy. If the blood work is above a certain range there is disease. However it doesn’t work like that. The body is heading towards disease LONG before the numbers show disease.

    Radhia Gleis is a Certified Clinical Nutritionist for humans. CCNs have to have at minimum a bachelors degree in nutrition before they can even start training as a CCN. In the below video Radhia discusses how it is the job of a CCN to evaluate blood work and other diagnostics to find illness BEFORE symptoms appear. She states at the 5:42 mark in the video
    “You wait usually until the horse is out of the barn before you do something about it. You wait until there is symptoms and on a scale from zero to one hundred, one hundred being absolute perfect health and zero being death, we don’t start to really experience symptoms until we’re at about 30. So 60 percent of the vital energy of the body is diminished and then all of the sudden the body’s knocking on the door saying there’s something seriously wrong.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMiBuAWvDB0

    Those of us that recommend better quality of nutrition are suggesting that these better quality food (ingredients) are more able to keep you towards optimal health versus right around the corner from symptoms.

    Additionally, MANY people and pets are ALREADY experiencing symptoms but don’t consider them symptoms. If your dog is itchy or overweight or needs flea medications — your dog already HAS symptoms. They are closer to the zero (death) than to the one hundred (perfect health).

    It requires more than diet to obtain perfect health but diet is a HUGE factor.

  • InkedMarie

    Sharron, you’ve been here quite a long time….have you never read any review? If you look up above, you will see that Dr mike explains about each ingredient.

    If you don’t want to read here, a simple google search on how to find a good quality food will answer the question.

  • sharron

    i’m very curious as to why so many people are against feeding RC and other foods like it – not talking about foods at the grocery store What is so terrible about the ingredients.? What sort of ailments is the dog going to get if fed this type of food, and why does there have to be so much meat in a food to be considered a high quality food ?

  • InkedMarie

    wish I could; one of my dogs has perpetually runny eyes and we can’t pinpoint the cause.

  • सौरभ सिंह राजोरिया

    hey ! can u suggest me how can i help my dog’s eyes clean?
    ….he has runny eyes all the time…he is a labrador

  • Shawna

    Complete and Balanced diets have to meet at least the minimum “key nutrients” required by AAFCO. You state “because nice ingredients can be put together and be deficient in key nutrients”. Based on this comment I believe you are stating that the AAFCO nutrient profiles is not a reliable guideline for meeting, at least the minimum, key nutrient requirements in dog foods?

  • Amateria

    Your in luck that I kept my iPad on in case someone commented while I was showering, otherwise it would of had to wait till tomorrow.

    I’m in Australia.

  • InkedMarie

    LOL, I’m a middle aged woman who has a big mouth and am not afraid to use it! I’m Sicilian too so add hand movements!

  • InkedMarie

    what country are you in, or do you work overnights?

  • Amateria

    Well it was good talking to you all in some way or another and I hope that most of the comments stick around, because they weren’t all bad, but I am once again staying up later than I should… So goodnight all! Have fun continuing to chat with each other, I will see you all tomorrow!

  • Shawna

    I agree Amateria!! There is absolutely no one food that every dog will be able to eat without issue. Because of this, as you stated, there will be negative comments for any food made be it kibble, canned, raw or whatever.

  • Amateria

    Every dog food I have read comments on which is a seriously large amount has issues, no matter what you try there is always a 1 star comment, stating their very honest dislike about the food.

    That’s to the first part of what you copied from Lanie, only I’d rather reply to you 😛

    I’ve noticed a growing problem with Merrick and Totw lately and likely there’s more, my brain fog is getting better, but it hasn’t let go quiet yet D;

  • Amateria

    Well I guess it’s nice to know that you have two different personalities hehe online and offline modes.

    At the moment with how much I’ve changed I’d say I’m the same both ways, only I’m not shy online and a lot of my YouTube comments would prove that haha.

  • Shawna

    I have to question your vets knowledge when making statements like this “all of the grain free and raw fads are going to make millions of dogs ill a few years later.”

    Although they can derive benefit, carbohydrates, in general / not just grains, are not required in the dog’s diet. They don’t “need” them at all.

    Waltham (which I pulled from Mr Google) is a very reliable source of info on this.
    “Cats and dogs can sythesise their own blood glucose from amino acids. Carbohydrate, therefore is not an essential macronutrient.” https://www.waltham.com/dyn/_assets/_pdfs/waltham-booklets/Essentialcatanddognutritionbookletelectronicversion.pdf

    Royal Canin even has info on it
    “Cats an dogs can live without carbohydrates in their food, as the body can synthesise the carbohydrates the body needs from amino acids ingested as protein. The intake of carbohydrates does, however, greatly improve the body’s functioning ability.” http://www.royalcanin.com.au/health-nutrition/nutrients/carbohydrates

    Many here will not disagree that vegetables and fruits (carbohydrates) can “greatly improve the body’s functioning ability” but they certainly don’t require half of their diet from carbs. In fact, there is NO requirement by the AAFCO for carbs to be in the diet at all. They require protein. They require fats but no minimum level of carbs required. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=662

    Again I have no problem at all with you feeding Royal Canin. It’s your choice but your are being misguided on these topics by your vet.

  • aquariangt

    Unfortunately, definitions do not change. Regardless of them being able to be combined to create a whole, does not make them nutritious. But truly, why bother? Why go through the effort when whole foods with nutritious use are available, other than cost. Might as well skip the step to get the most nutrition out of a food possible. I understand that not everyone can feed fresh (though, as with all species, is going to be the most nutrition out of the ingredients) but if one must feed kibble, let’s go ahead and get the most nutrition we can. Too much trying to prove formulations out there, not enough pure common sense and reviewing what food and nutrition actually mean

  • Amateria

    Well I’m a forum, comment section warrior and no not in that bad way, in the way that I am everywhere reading comments everyday lol, I have unfortunately not had the pleasure “yet” to read anything like that, but perhaps it’s because I’m only in the pet food sections who knows.

    As much as I would love a camaro I would I repeat never buy the car before I bought my dog or cat(maybe in the future) honest to goodness food ever, plus I really don’t have that type of money to begin with, but just giving an example of the sorts.

  • Azul

    I agree, they absolutely have the right to post on this site.
    They do not have the right to post inflammatory, rude remarks in all caps tho.

  • Amateria

    I have the new iPad Pro 9.7, best decision I ever made, my old one was beginning to become slower than a turtle, that’s saying something!

    Anyways on topic, I’ve had problems getting it to work as well, I go to copy it and it turns off every time, the only way I managed to fix it was to do as I wrote, which is to tap only, if I try to push it down hard it closes every time, a seriously light tap is needed. (I do find it odd with the push though as I have had it work like that before and than it just randomly stopped).

    There’s a few things I’m not generally not too happy about, but at least I finally have internet when I’m in town, 95% of the time on my old iPad 3 I had zero, zilch, nudda.

  • InkedMarie

    I can’t be the only person who encounters this both IRL and online. I am on too many forums & read where people can’t afford a better food; then they post about vacations, their new smartphones. I call them out: it’s not that you cant but you won’t. Gotcha, all about priorities.

  • InkedMarie

    sometimes I can get it to work, sometimes not. I’m probably the least techy person here

  • Amateria

    Well so much for can’t afford it, guess the car means more to her than the dog.
    At least that’s what everyone would see when they read that.

  • InkedMarie

    I don’t think Dog Chow is good for any dog.
    I have tried. I’ve suggested Pure Balance at Walmart, 4Health at TS….ordering online but nothing. They can’t afford it but the new Harley came home last year & she just traded her car for a 4runner. All thats another topic though!

  • Pitlove

    Hi aquriangt-

    Why they do not use an ingredient list to evaulate a food is simply because nice ingredients can be put together and be deficient in key nutrients while seemingly worse ingredients provide all key nutrients needed for life in the proper balance. Thus not falling inline with the definition of nutrition you posted. Are both things always true? No. I would not trust many of the grocery store brands such as Ol’Roy and Kibbles N’Bits to provide my dog with proper nutrition. Mainly because I doubt the company formulating the food. That being said the opposite is true too. Many foods with wonderful ingredients are nutritionally sound for our pets.

  • Amateria

    If you have one of the newer ones with like iOS 9 you tap the website bar and than tap it again and copy should appear.

    On an older one it’s like hold down the bar after you’ve tapped it so it allows you to write it in it and that should bring up copy.

    To be honest as overpriced as everyone says iPads are and truth be told they kinda are, I will never buy another tablet from any other company, my iPad is love my iPad is life hehe.

  • Pitlove

    Obviously Dog Chow is not the best dog food for that golden. Unforunate that the owner will not change to something else.

  • InkedMarie

    I think I suggested she read “how we rate food”; I’d link it but my iPad skills aren’t up to par LOL

  • Azul

    I agree 100%

  • InkedMarie

    I’m sorry but if you yelled at me & sound like a toddler stomping your feet (as i feel Lanie did in a couple posts), I would laugh at you. The internet is no different for me. I’m actually far nicer online then I am IRL.

    Poor quality ingredients are poor quality ingredients; telling someone that is harrassment? Wow. I think some people need to be big person pants on if they want to post on dog forums.

    as far as how well a dog is doing is very subjective. my neighbors golden is a mess; overweight, disgusting coat, has the biggest piles of poop I’ve ever seen yet they say he is doing great on dog chow. Not even close.

  • sharron

    Lexee’s vet doesn’t push any brand of food on to me, he doesn’t even ask what i feed her, he tells me to continue what i am doing and that there is nothing wrong with her and i accept that. Should i argue with him and tell him that she is “seemingly” healthy because i feed her a food that doesn’t have a truck load of meat in it .This when i get confused and start asking a whole bunch of questions and start annoying people. One side says it’s crappy food, others say it’s fine. How do people know what shape your dog is going to be in 5-10 yrs. down the road. My last big dog was fed Orijen and still ended up getting cancer twice and he was only 9 when he passed away

  • aquariangt

    “Nutritionist” ignoring ingredients should be something that never happens.

    Definition of Nutrition: the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth

    To me, it’s somewhat of the same “smh” situation as attempting to say that something processed to the point of kibble could possibly be healthier than fresh food, regardless of raw or cooked. That isn’t species specific.

  • InkedMarie

    I will be honest: I have one experience with a nutritionist; if I knew then what I know now, I would have laughed at her suggestion. I had a dog who was dying & I knew nothing about “better” foods & holistic minded vets/nutritionists.

    You & I wwill agree to disagree and that is fine. I appreciate you being kind in your responses; at least you’re not yelling!

    Oh, your second paragraph to me: I do know people who feed ol Roy, Alpo, foods like that and they may think it’s a five star food but I really find it very unlikely their dogs are five star in health.

  • Pitlove

    This is the case for many of the foods that those on here vilify. I have found that many of the brands that those same people claim are full of filler, junky ingredients are infact the most highly digestible. And those same foods are foods that dogs do very well on in terms of overall health. This is part of the reason that many nutritionists do not use an ingredient list to evaluate a food.

  • Azul

    Hi Sharron, I completely understand that some dogs do well on certain foods, and not on others.
    But a food can never be magically better than the ingredients used to make it.
    Low grade ingredients do not become better or healthier
    just because a vet, or anyone else endorses the food.

  • Pitlove

    My comments have nothing to do with taking sides. People who come on this site have a right to comment on the review of the food they feed. Obviously Lanie does not understand how Dr. Mike has choosen to rate dog foods. Many people do not understand the criteria he has picked for rating foods. Yes, she was rude, but as I said…two wrongs do not make a right. Be the better person.

  • Shawna

    Hi Lanie,

    I really don’t have a problem with you feeding and liking Royal Canin but I do take issue with your comments about raw and using just one vets opinion as your basis for this.

    Dr. Meg Smart taught veterinary nutrition for over 30 years. She states
    “I have posted on my blog petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com what I feel is the ideal way to feed dogs. I will concentrate on dogs as cats are a whole separate topic. (I believe cats are fed inappropriately which is causing a lot of preventable health problems). I like to see variety in a dog’s diet as their digestive tract is not designed to be fed the same diet day in and day out. Homemade diets are not for every dog owner. I always ask clients” what do you or did you feed your children” if they reply “Kraft dinners and the likes” I do not advise a homemade diet.

    I see a benefit in feeding whole foods whether cooked or raw. Genetically the dog and the anatomy of its digestive tract are closely aligned with that of the wolf. So we can use this as a dietary model when designing diets for the domestic dog.” – See more at: http://www.angryvet.com/angryvet-nutrition-interview-drs-joseph-wakshlag-and-meg-smart/#sthash.4QztX1kG.dpuf

    For the record, nobody disagrees that an unbalanced diet is not a healthy option however balancing a dogs diet is not rocket science. For those that can’t or don’t want to take on the responsibility their are AAFCO complete and balanced commercial options that have to meet the same criteria as kibbled diets.

    Here’s a partial list of other vets, that can easily be verified online, that recommend raw and/or homemade.

    Dr. Bruce Symes
    Dr. Anita Moore
    Dr. Peter Dobia
    Dr. Amy Nesselrodt
    Dr. Martin Goldstein
    Dr. Stephen Blake
    Dr. William Pollak
    Dr. Charles E Loops
    Dr. Susan Krakauer
    Dr. Will Falconer
    Dr. Lisa Pierson
    Dr. Andrea Tasi
    Dr. Jean Hofve
    Dr. Elisa Katz
    Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins
    I could go on……..

  • sharron

    lexee does well on Royal Canin, the only reason i switched food this time is due to the fact that she gets tired of eating the same food but Royal Canin really does help with her digestive tract.
    I don’t understand how some people can assume that the dog isn’t doing well or won’t do well down the road just because it’s being fed a particular food. Lexee is very healthy according to her vet.

  • Azul

    Nope none of that is harassment.
    Not sure why you’re taking her side.
    You might want to go back and take a look at her posts again. She started off with inflammatory remarks and all caps before anyone ever posted a reply to her.
    Her only purpose for posting was to flame, and she started with Dr. Mike

  • Pitlove

    You are correct, disagreeing with someone is NOT harassment. Laughing at them, telling them the food they are using is full of poor quality ingredients and their dog doing well on it means nothing, telling them their dog is only “seemingly” doing well on it…IS harassment. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

  • Azul

    Disagreeing with someone is not harassment.
    She is the one typing in all caps and writing rude posts.
    If she believes that this food is a 5 star for her dog, good for her. That’s no reason to come on this site and say “shame on Dog Food Advisor for giving this food a 2.5 star rating”
    The food is rated based on ingredients. Not how “good” someone believes their dog does on it.
    Her only point of posting seems to be that her and her vet know everything, and everyone else is clueless.
    She reminds me of a little kid with fingers in their ears and their tongue sticking out saying nah na na nah nah! lol

  • Azul

    Exactly.

  • Storm’s Mom

    A “fact” isn’t based on “should”s.. opinions are.

  • Pitlove

    Our definitions of harassment might differ then. Though I think Dr. Mike would agree with mine given his commenting policy

    While this site might give Royal Canin a 2.5 star rating, the food obviously is a 5 star for her dog. Her dog does well on it and is healthy. I am not sure why anyone cares if she chooses to feed RC or not? I don’t think it effects any of our lives in the slightest.

    Her comments about raw feeders came after others commented about the “poor quality” ingredients in RC etc etc. However, I do agree that she was rude on her part there.

    Is it a problem if someone chooses to put their trust in a veterinary professional over a dog food rating website? If so, why? You’ve said many times in the past that a vet can only know about nutrition if they are holistic (holistic vet’s graduate from the same veterinary schools as allopathic vet’s so I’m not sure how they have learned more…they simply go on to learn about the holistic side of medicine after school) or a veterinary nutritionist. You know that many if not most veterinary nutritionists recommend brands like Hill’s and Royal Canin, yes? Do they suddenly not have advanced training in nutrition because their beliefs don’t fall in line with yours?

  • InkedMarie

    No harassment going on. Lanie said she didn’t understand why this food isn’t a 5 star food or at least a 4: some of us told her to do some research which will answer her question.

    She also said “END OF DISCUSSION”. I’m pretty sure she is not the one here who ends the discussion.

    She also insinuated that us raw feeders, which includes myself, will have our dogs die of salmonella. Healthy dogs aren’t going to die of that; it’s the humans that is more in danger of that. I also mentioned all the kibbles recalled due to salmonella.

    I know people who feed pretty crappy foods; just because they think their dogs are doing well on it doesn’t make it a good foods. Ingredients, GA/NA make a food good. If she wants to feed RC, that’s great but because she thinks it’s a good food doesn’t make it one.

    She said she trusts her vet more than DFA; all well & good but if you only want to listen to your vet (or other people who agree with her), why bother yelling about how good she thinks the food is (other than the obcious reason: she can). She is probably one of those people who believes all vets know all about nutrition & that is not true. Many vets do nutritional education; many only know what they were taught in vet school or what the comapnies who’s foods they sell tell them when they bring lunch.

    JMO.

  • Pitlove

    Yes, I’ve read the conversation. Hopefully Dr. Mike will too and stop some of the harassment going on in this thread.

  • Amateria

    I’m pretty sure you’ve been keeping up with the entire conversation here and clearly I’m not the only one that disagrees yet I seem to be one that gets attacked the most by you.

    It makes it very hard for me to even answer anything that you say to me without going crazy with my words, if you don’t like what we have to say the door is that way.

    Bye bye!

  • Amateria

    The most expensive version of RC here is $171 for the sensitivity control, one look at the ingredients should make you wonder what in the hell you are paying that much for…

    They even mentioned that they would like to add worms and feathers to their food, like how anyone can agree that, that is food fit for a dog is well you know.

    The breed specifics though, now that was hilarious when I once looked it up, marketing at its best!

  • Pitlove

    Hi Amateria-

    What makes you feel that you need to change Lanie’s mind about the food she is feeding? Is it simply because you disagree with her choice of food? Or is there evidence based on what she said that she wants to switch foods? Has she said that her dog has been sick from eating Royal Canin? I have yet to see her post anything indicating that. I don’t think it’s Lanie’s lack of “listening to reason” that is the issue here…

  • Cannoli

    they are noy negative arguments. Lani presented a fact that this food should be rated 5 stars cuss her dog does so well in it.

    we on the on the other hand agree with dog food advisor based on our independent research that a food that is compromised mostly of a nutrient deficient processed ingredient which is then pumped with synthetic vitamins to make up those nutrient deficiencies does not equate a 5 star foood.

    then the poster attacks our knowledge cuss their vet has some hidden super knowledge about brewer’s rice that the rest of the internet world does not

  • Azul

    Exactly. RC uses the cheapest ingredients possible, and charges a high price. It doesn’t take that much gray matter to figure that out. And their breed specific formulas are so hokey. If you take a look at the ingredient lists they use the same ingredients, just in a different order. Some are identical to others. lol

  • aimee

    Hi Lanie,

    Just wanted to say that my dog, like yours, does great on Royal Canin.

    Try not to let those posting negative comments get to you.

  • Amateria

    I generally gave up trying to get people like this to listen to anything we have to say as they simply won’t listen to reason and all I get is my comments removed for trying to change a person that doesn’t want to change.

    I guess we can always try, but it’s usually futile.

  • Cannoli

    Another person who doubts the power of the Internet when it comes to feeding your dog.

    It’s fascinating how we use and trust the Internet to help us make personal investments such as googling the Profits & Loses of companies in order to decide whether we should invest 5,000 on Apple stock. No I don’t need a CFA degree I live and breath investments.

    Or how we use the Internet to find love. Thank you match.com you were right on target with that girl you set me up last week. She’s a keeper

    Or when my car’s brakes needed replacement and since I am familiar with doing some car work all I needed was google to find out what pads I need for a 2012 Nissan Maxima and some instructions. Thank you google for saving me money.

    Or when I bought a house and saved 25, 000 on it because I googled the depreciation of the houses within the last 20 years and the previous homeowner was way off on his asking price.

    Or when I am at work and I need to write some SQL code to finish up this computer project and I don’t know the code I google it.

    So here are some examples that I rely on the expertise of the Internet. Complex stuff. Much more complicated than feeding my dog. So why would I run to my vet to teach me how to feed my dog?

  • Azul

    Your caps lock is on.
    I doubt your dog is 25.

  • InkedMarie

    LOLOLOL!!

  • InkedMarie

    Lanie Malvit: look at the ingredients and in the search here, type in “how we rate dog foods”. That will clue you in as to why this food is rated as it is.

    Salmonella isn’t dangerous to healthy dogs so I’ll keep feeding raw. While you’re researching, google all the kibbles that have been recalled due to kibble.

    You’re welcome.

  • InkedMarie

    That’s great that your dog is apparently doing great on RC but that doesn’t make it a good food. Look at the iingredients. Vets get very little nutrition education so what they recommend is usually inferior food, as it is in this case.

    Blue, Nutro, purina and Iams are all inferior foods as well.

  • Azul

    Hahahaha how could anyone think that processed junk food (kibble) is better for a dog than grain free raw food?
    lolololololol.
    If you really believe that raw food kills, please explain how all the predators are not extinct.
    How do we still have wolves, tigers, lions, bears?

  • theBCnut

    Grain is just a source of carbs. There is nothing about grain that dogs need. Grain free foods use other carb sources. If your vet thinks that using different carb sources is going to kill dogs, you need to find a new vet. And if you can’t use the brain God gave you to figure out anything for yourself, rather than relying solely on what others say, well, there’s no helping you. Your vet had a lot to learn in vet school, about many very different species of animals. Vets don’t have a lot of time to study nutrition. All they can do is rely on others tell them. Those others are the ones selling to them. How unbiased do you think they are?

  • Lanie Malvit

    Of course i know how to do a search, but i know that my vet is WAY more educated and trustworthy than mr.google

    I actually even asked my vet about the ingredients and she explained to me that all of the grain free and raw fads are going to make millions of dogs ill a few years later. And that rroyal canin was DEVELOPED BY VETS and that they test their food all the time to assure it stands up to their high standards. While id bet that the food any of you are feeding hasn’t been tested by the company for years.

    I trust royal canin and i KNOW (not believe) that their food is healthy, high quality, and simply the best food out there.

    Keep fooling yourself that those raw and grain free diets are healthy, because they are not

  • theBCnut

    Since you are on the internet, and found this site, I’m assuming you know how to do a search. Why don’t you also do a bit of research into what the names of ingredients mean and what their quality is. This food has poor quality ingredients. A food can’t magically be better than it’s ingredients.

    Marketing doesn’t make a food better either.

    I have friends that feed Pedigree and Beneful. That doesn’t make those good foods either.

    And quit yelling.

  • Lanie Malvit

    WHILE ALL OF YOU ARE SITTING AT YOUR DOGS GRAVE DUE TO SALMONELLA POISON FROM FEEDING RAW CRAP, I’LL BE CELEBRATING MY DOGS 25TH BIRTHDAY

  • Lanie Malvit

    UM, YOU MEAN NOT SMART DOG.

  • Lanie Malvit

    THIS FOOD DESERVES 5 STARS OR AT LEAST 4

    END OF DISCUSSION

  • Lanie Malvit

    You people don’t have any idea what your talking about!!

    I didn’t just take my vets word, a few of my friends feed royal canin and my dog has been super healthy since i have switched him from blue.

    I have tried blue, nutro, purina one, AND iams naturals, and she has gotten terrible loose stools and has puked on a day-to-day basis to all of them EXCEPT royal canin

    Also, mahoraner niall, why would they call “scrap” rice BREWERS rice.
    ITS JUST RICE THAT THEY WOULD USE FOR BREWING, BUT INSTEAD THEY USE IT IN THE DOG FOOD.

  • mahoraner niall

    i completely agree with you (June)
    Lanie: please take a second to read the first 3 ingredients, They may not seem THAT bad, but here is what hours of research has shown me about all three;

    first, brewers rice
    Brewers rice is the scrap part of milling rice for human consumption

    Brown rice.
    Brown rice is honestly the only healthy ingredient i see on their label, and is a high quality ingredient, But should not be before meat, When looking for food, make sure meat ALWAYS comes before grain (whether its a high or low quality grain)

    Chicken byproduct meal is all of the scraps from producing chicken meat for human consumption, which can include anything from organs to bones to feet, then it is dried and made into a meal. And is un-suitable for human consumption

    Please consider switching your dog to a better food, there an hundreds of foods that cost the same, or even less than royal canin and are much higher quality.

    Royal canin, based on its ingredients, is basically an over priced dog chow, which almost killed my dog

  • Lanie Malvit

    my dog is completely healthy on royal canin,
    said by my vet who apparently went to 4 years of vet school just to make my dog ill. and you think im going to listen to someone who probably doesn’t even have a vet for their own dog, or at least a vet who has a sense of high quality dog food

  • June Benson

    Your vet recommended it because when your dog crashes and burns from this crap food he will reap the rewards from it. Cha ching cha ching. I’m sure your vet also recommend unnecessary shots and spot on or oral flea and tick meds to..

  • sharron

    going to give orijen freeze dried tundra a whirl again, see how that goes

  • Cannoli

    brewer’s rice is one of the most nutrient deficient and processed food out there. yet this is the main ingredient in this food. Then they jam the rest of this food with synthetic vitamins to meet nutritional requirements

    In other words i would basically be feeding my dog rice cakes topped with GNC vitamins.

    A 2.5 rating is being way too generous here

  • Azul

    You’re welcome. 🙂

  • sharron

    hi – i guess i have it stuck in my head that she should be on kibble – all my other dogs in the past ate dry, never canned, so i think Lexee should be the same way, but she definitely isn’t when it comes to food – will keep her on can and have increased her walks to what they used to be – 20 mins, 3 x a day – thanks for your help!!!

  • Azul

    Canned is more species appropriate than kibble.
    Why don’t you just feed her canned if she doesn’t like kibble?

  • sharron

    i’ve been feeding the RC weight care canned food – she doesn’t care much for dry, any dry
    dog food – very difficult to get her to eat dry without her just about starving herself

  • Pitlove

    That is wonderful! Took almost 2 years to find a food my pitbull would eat for more than one small bag without turning his nose up to it.

  • Pitlove

    Hi Lanie-

    You have given us a perfect example of why it is difficult to chose a dog food based on websites like this and consumer reviews. Doesn’t matter the star rating so long as your dog does well on it and gets a clean bill of health from a trusted vet. Glad you found a food that does not upset your dogs stomach!

  • InkedMarie

    Type “how we rate dog food” into the search here on DFA. It’s all about the ingredients, NA/GA.

    I’m glad your dog does well on this but that has nothing to do with the quality of the food.

    Unless your vet is a holistic vet or nutritionist, they don’t know all that much about nutrition. They get very little nutrition education in vet school.

  • Azul

    One look at the ingredients list answers your question.
    The foods on this site are rated by their meat based
    protein levels.

  • Azul

    The dry portion of their foods stays the same for about 3 weeks or so because I buy large bags. But the canned and fresh food portion changes on a daily basis. None of my dogs are picky, and they really seem to enjoy this feeding method. I can tell because they are all very excited at meal times, they literally jump up and down with anticipation, and start doing all their tricks so they can have their bowls quicker. lol

  • Amateria

    Well than it works for your dog simple, doesn’t mean it’s a good food doesn’t mean that someone can highly recommend it for everyone else’s pet, because like us every dog is different some don’t do well on this food at all and some thrive on it just the way things are.

  • Lanie Malvit

    Put her on royal canin weight management!

  • Lanie Malvit

    How can this only have 2.5 stars?
    I have tried many of the expensive brands, but royal canin is the only food my dog doesn’t get sick on. Also after only 3 weeks of him being on royal canin (royal canin medium sensitive digestion to be exact) his coat was much shinier and he is just 100% over all healthy!

    Shame on dog food advisor for rating this great food with such a low rating,
    Also my vet recommended royal canin, and i trust my vet MUCH MORE than i trust a website that ISN’T EVEN RUN BY VETS

  • aimee

    For weight loss a common method to determine amount to feed is to determine how many calories you had been feeding and then decrease that amount by 20% and reevaluate every few weeks. Ask your vet to guide you.

  • Pitlove

    Have you tried feeding her on a plate instead of a bowl? Bentley would only eat off a feeding tray for a long time. Now we are back to a normal bowl.

  • Pitlove

    Your last sentence was the point I was making. Some dogs do not enjoy that much variety though we as the human believe they do. My dog is one who prefers to be on the same food for at least a few months. I used to switch brands, proteins, etc every week.

  • Azul

    Canned food won’t cause weight gain. But too many calories definitely will. When you add the canned are you giving less dry?

  • Azul

    Hi Pitlove, I rotate foods with all different manufacturers, brands, and protein sources. I add canned and fresh (human) lol foods. None of my dogs are picky. They will eat whatever combo I give them. They will even eat plain kibble only, even after having much higher value foods like canneddog food and freshly cooked meat, eggs, ect.
    Every dog is different tho, so if your experience with your dog may be different than mine.

  • Pitlove

    Hi Azul-

    I used to do that for my dog. I found it made him more picky.

  • sharron

    is 1/2 cup of acana too much? – she weighs nearly 12 lbs and should be between 10.0 and 10.5 lbs – if i cut back to 3/8 cup then she’s hungry and i end up giving another 1/8 cup which ends up being 1/2 cup

  • aimee

    Weight gain comes from feeding more calories than expenditure. The form of the food is immaterial.

  • sharron

    hi – well i got her to eat the acana, had to put the food on the floor beside her bowl..go figure

  • sharron

    i’m in a middle of a power struggle right now – she’s holding out for wet food but i am determined to get her over that and eat dry – should be interesting because i’m the one that gives in first

  • Azul

    You’re welcome. There’s really no right or wrong way to mixit up. Just be sure to use up the open bags within a few weeks so they don’t go bad/stale.

  • sharron

    hi and thanks – taken her off the can,
    got her on acana, different formulas – having a power struggle right now getting her to eat it – but do not fear i will not give in – i’m pretty sure the extra weight came from the canned food

  • aimee

    Sharron,

    The royal canin low fat canned takes about 55% of its calories from carbohydrate, 29% from protein and 15.5 from fat.

  • sharron

    thanks!!!! i try hard – can i switch between the acana formulas at each meal or by the day, or by the bag

  • Azul

    You are a good dog mom. I think she’s trying to tell you that she doesn’t like to eat the same food/flavor all the time.
    Try buying the smallest bags and switching up the proteins with each new bag. That should keep her from getting bored and refusing to eat.

  • sharron

    hi – the DFA calculator says 218 cals for overweight – i was told 4-5 years ago by a nutritionist that Lexee should get 200 cals/day and that isn’t for overweight issues (don’t know if that is right or not) – been told since then, that some nutritionists have a tendency to go lower on the amount cals a dog should be fed per day – what do you think?
    thanks

  • sharron

    hi – i picked up the trial size bags of the acana lamb/pear, small breed, and the duck – she gets tired of the same food all the time – she did stay on the RC a lot longer than i thought she would – she doesn’t like a lot of the dog foods, believe me i have tried most of them during the past 6 years

  • sharron

    i tried the RC dry first, no go, then the RC can, still a no go, then the dry and wet, a no go with that too – all i had left to try was the Acana which i took out of the closet and put in her dish, she was beside me when i did this and she ate it all up – she didn’t ask for the Acana – and yes i did feel her tummy and she is fine – just being picky again

  • Azul

    She obviously prefers Acana over RC. Smart dog.

  • Storm’s Mom

    What happened (what did you feel, what was her reaction) when you pressed hard on her belly, as Pitlove suggested?

  • sharron

    good morning – she’s just being picky she’s doing the same thing this morning

  • Pitlove

    You can try pressing hard on her belly (kind of massaging it) and see if she has a painful reaction. If so she may have an upset stomach and thats why she won’t eat. If not, then possibly being picky.

  • sharron

    oh yes, there’s water for her all the time – she’s not a heavy drinker but i think she’s getting enough, she drinks more after chewing a bone and i usually add water to her dry food

  • sharron

    i don’t know why she won’t eat – she hasn’t done this in a very long time

  • Storm’s Mom

    Does she have access to water during the day, and does she drink it regularly (several times a day)?

  • sharron

    will have to give in and mix in can –
    was trying to get her to eat just dry
    but i think the can has become the lifestyle for her – i thought perhaps feeding her can food has caused the weight gain – thanks so much for your help

  • Pitlove

    If she can not handle being fasted then you need to get her to eat something, especially if she is on any meds. Do you have any canned you can offer?

  • sharron

    ok thanks

  • sharron

    could be that it’s only kibble and not wet mixed in – she’ll have me up during the night because she will be so hungry and then the bile starts

  • Pitlove

    I feel like to get her to lose 1 pound or 1 1 1/2 pounds you could feed her for an “overweight” dog

  • Pitlove

    IMO no. I’m only concerned about calories and that is what has worked for me.

  • Pitlove

    Fasting them overnight will not hurt them, but I would be curious about why she won’t eat.

  • sharron

    how long can this dog go without eating, last time she ate was 5:30 this morning

  • sharron

    i just used the DFA calculator and i entered in 10 lbs, senior, inactive, and 353 cals = 280 cals/day
    when i used 10 lbs, overweight, and 353 cals, i get 218 cals – she’s overweight and inactive, how do figure out the cals she needs when she’s both

  • sharron

    so in your opinion it comes down to the amt of calories bring fed and it doesn’t matter what the dry food is eg: grain free, high protein, high fat etc etc.

  • Pitlove

    I personally don’t find that protein, fat or carb levels have anything to do with my ability to keep my dogs lean. I watch calories. Thats it. I like using higher calorie foods but feed a lot less (I choose “senior, neutered, or inactive” on the dog food calculator) so I’m still meeting their caloric needs, but I save money because I don’t feed as much.

    If my dogs don’t walk or exercise a lot that day, I don’t give a treat. If I need to give canned food because someone is being picky, I cut back the dry food to make up for the added calories. I do however, stay away from really high fat foods since I don’t have active or working dogs.

    The easiest thing to do is to feed whatever food she will eat for the weight she should be and not the current weight (unless that is her ideal weight of course) and watch calories. Doesn’t matter if you give low fat, low calorie treats. They can still add up fast if you are over doing it.

  • sharron

    so she’s better off eating a higher protein, higher fat food that would have a lot less carbs? – how high do i go with the protein and fat – what should l look for in a dry food

  • Storm’s Mom

    That was just for the wet. But keep in mind that with ANY food, if you have low fat AND low protein, you will automatically have HIGH carbs.

  • sharron

    she had breakfast at 5:30 this morning, dinner still sitting in her bowl since 4:30 this pm – one would think she would be hungry enough to eat right? but oh no, not her

  • sharron

    good god – 70% carbs!!!? is that for just the wet or the dry too? – if that’s why she has gained, i should eat it, maybe i can put weight on – i might as well go and get a bag of decent food that has less carbs and forget the wet food – was thinking of the performatrin small breed grain free or acana small breed

  • Storm’s Mom

    Hi sharron, you’re probably already aware of this, but when you say the can is 1.5% fat, you know you can’t compare it directly to the % of fat in kibble, right? You have to convert it to Dry Matter Basis in order to compare it to kibble. On that basis, the canned is actually 4% fat. Still very low fat, though.

    see: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dry-matter-basis/

  • sharron

    ok i will keep her on the RC Chihuahua and the can and then see what the vet says – i really don’t want to change foods because she does well on these 2 foods – it’s just the weight increase that i don’t understand – thanks a bunch for your help!!

  • sharron

    hi – yes it sure is – good thing she’s little – the reason i buy it is because it’s really low in fat, like, 1.5% and she really likes it. she’s fussy about can food too – it’s really good for dogs with digestive issues – it keeps her digestive system in check – poops are good and no constipation

  • Storm’s Mom

    I’d get her thyroid checked out before making too many more food changes. Beyond that, honestly, I’m not sure what food you feed matters at this point. I’ve said before that I prefer to tinker with exercise instead of food. If you want to try something else…any of the 4 or 5 star foods listed on this site, that you can easily and consistently get at a store (not special order), and within whatever your budget is is where I would start. See if it sticks. *shrug*

  • Storm’s Mom

    No. I’m not a fan of “senior formulas” generally.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Wow! That’s really expensive canned food. That’s over $4/can. Isn’t there any other canned food that would work and costs less?

  • sharron

    do you think she should be on a senior formula since she’s 7

  • sharron

    in your opinion, what would be a good food to try other than RC – Acana Small Breed? – she’s not as fussy as she use to be, so perhaps i can get her to eat a “better” food, meaning less carbs than the RC has – i need a dry that has tiny pieces since she swallows kibble whole

  • sharron

    thanks for the info – i don’t anything about the thyroid – will definitely have the vet check it out when we go next week – thanks for your help!!!!!

  • Storm’s Mom

    Where the thyroid is concerned, it’s not so much about her weight being fine as it is about her not eating much AND being able to maintain or gain weight. That indicates a potential thyroid issue.

  • sharron

    hi – no i didn’t, her weight was fine back then – she’s due for her annual chk-up on May 4, will ask about then
    as for the kibble, she does eat it sometimes, when she gets tired of the wet stuff and then i switch her over to dry and back to wet, that’s what her vet suggested to do, i usually though will mix both dry and wet as it costs me $50.00 for a case of 12 cans of wet, so i throw in dry to make the wet lasts longer, i also soften the kibble a little bit
    she’s ok with kibble that is very small, if the kibble is bigger she tries to swallow it whole then she starts choking, so depending on the size i soften it if it’s big or i don’t if it’s tiny

  • Storm’s Mom

    Hi sharron, yes probably… but did you ever end up getting her thyroid checked? I know it was talked about and then the tooth issue was discovered (which leads me to wonder why you are feeding her kibble again, as I thought you weren’t going to after that?) ..so I lost track of whether her thyroid was ever actually checked and if so what the results were.

  • sharron

    been thinking – would feeding her a higher protein, higher fat food, but cut back on the amt fed, keep her full from one meal to the next – the norm for her is close to 4 oz/day – that’s wet or dry or both mixed

  • sharron

    thanks

  • Pitlove

    Hi sharron-

    For her to lose 1 pound you wouldn’t need a weight loss food imo. Use the dog food calculator tool on here to see how much she should eat of whichever food she likes. Only thing I’m not sure of is if it calculates it as you are talking about dry food only or if it works with canned as well. Maybe someone knows.

  • Amateria

    Based on the ingredients of that food I wonder what part of that helps with satiety lol, if I ate it I’d be hungry all day :p

    Anything for weight should work from what I’ve read and I hope that you find something for Lexee in the near future, because I’ve personally never dealt with weight food I can’t really help all that much, I mean Rusty is a coby chihuahua we think because he only has 1 roll on his back and also because of his short legs, but we just stick to the homemade for him regardless because whenever we changed he got sick with his pancreatitis.

    I’m just going to finish it here I’m having trouble writing this morning and I already re wrote the last few lines like 10 times and now it’s written not too badly so yeah I’ll leave it there.

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