Nature’s Logic (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★★★

Nature’s Logic Dog Food earns the Advisor’s top rating of 5 stars.

The Nature’s Logic product line includes seven dry dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Nature’s Logic Canine Beef Meal Dinner Fare
  • Nature’s Logic Canine Lamb Meal Dinner Fare
  • Nature’s Logic Canine Rabbit Meal Dinner Fare
  • Nature’s Logic Canine Sardine Meal Dinner Fare
  • Nature’s Logic Canine Chicken Meal Dinner Fare
  • Nature’s Logic Canine Venison Meal Dinner Fare
  • Nature’s Logic Canine Duck and Salmon Meal Dinner Fare

Nature’s Logic Canine Rabbit Meal Dinner Fare was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Nature's Logic Canine Rabbit Meal Dinner Fare

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 38% | Fat = 18% | Carbs = 36%

Ingredients: Rabbit meal, turkey meal, millet, chicken fat, pumpkin seed, yeast culture, spray dried chicken liver, dried egg product, suncured alfalfa meal, montmorillonite clay, dried kelp, cheese powder, spray dried porcine plasma, dried tomato, almonds, dried chicory root, dried carrot, dried apple, sardine meal, egg shell meal, dried pumpkin, dried apricot, dried blueberry, dried spinach, dried broccoli, dried cranberry, parsley, dried artichoke, rosemary, mixed tocopherols, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Bifidobacterium bifidium fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Bacillus coagulans fermentation product, dried pineapple extract, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, dried Trichoderma longibrachtium fermentation extract

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis38%18%NA
Dry Matter Basis38%18%36%
Calorie Weighted Basis32%37%31%

The first ingredient in this dog food is rabbit meal. Rabbit meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh rabbit.

The second ingredient includes turkey meal, another protein-rich meat concentrate.

The third ingredient is millet, a gluten-free grain harvested from certain seed grasses. Millet is hypoallergenic and naturally rich in B-vitamins and fiber as well as other essential minerals.

The fourth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The fifth ingredient is pumpkin seed. Pumpkin seeds are rich in fiber, vitamins, minerals and, more importantly, linoleic acid — an essential omega-6 fat.

The sixth ingredient is yeast culture. Although yeast culture is high in B-vitamins and protein, it can also be used as a probiotic to aid in digestion.

The seventh ingredient is spray dried chicken liver, a dehydrated product made from whole chicken livers. Because it contains about 62% protein and 20% fat, this item makes a favorable addition to this dog food.

The eighth ingredient is dried egg product, a dehydrated form of shell-free eggs. Quality can vary significantly. Lower grade egg product can even come from commercial hatcheries — from eggs that have failed to hatch.

In any case, eggs are easy to digest and have an exceptionally high biological value.

The ninth ingredient is alfalfa meal. Although alfalfa meal is high in plant protein (about 18%) and fiber (25%), this hay-family item is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions

First, montmorillonite clay is a naturally occurring compound rich in many trace minerals. Montmorillonite has been approved for use in USDA Organic Certified products.

Reported benefits include the binding of certain mold-based toxins and even controlling diarrhea and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).

Next, pork plasma is what remains of blood after the blood cells themselves have been removed. Plasma can be considered a nutritious addition.

In addition, chicory root is rich in inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

And lastly, Although we find no mention of added vitamins or minerals on the ingredients list, we’re reassured to find a detailed list of naturally present nutrients on the company’s website.

Nature’s Logic Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Nature’s Logic Dog Food looks like an above average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 38%, a fat level of 18% and estimated carbohydrates of about 36%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 37% and a mean fat level of 17%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 38% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 45%.

Above-average protein. Near-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the alfalfa meal, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a notable amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Nature’s Logic Dog Food is a plant-based kibble using a notable amount of various named meat and fish meals as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every report is directly dependent upon the quality of that data.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

06/19/2010 Original review
01/19/2011 Review updated
11/23/2011 Review updated
10/03/2012 Review updated
10/06/2013 Review updated
10/06/2013 Last Update

  • aimee

    I’m glad I took a screen shot before posting! If I hadn’t it would now appear that I was not accurate when I posted that after 5 months their site is unchanged.

    It would be quite the coincidence that after 5 months the information was changed within hours of my post. : )

    Here is something else interesting. In my post to Honest Kitchen asking why their posted NA’s don’t meet AAFCO I used the example of folic adic in Love reported as received .13, DM .14. I said the AAFCO min is .18 but after correcting for energy density AAFCO min is .248. Love NA now reports folic acid as .25.

  • Shawna

    Hmmm, that IS interesting.. Hmmmm?

    Edit — I’ve always been a NL supporter but that is suspect!?

  • aimee

    Interesting because as of ~11:00 am my time it hadn’t yet been changed. I wonder if they are watching this site Hmm .. I’ll attach today’s screen shot

  • losul

    Aimee, they have “corrected” the Ca P inversions for the beef formulas on their website.

  • Crazy4cats

    Hi Nancy-
    Just remember that the BD formula also contains enzymes, so you wouldn’t need to use both that supplement and the Mercola one that you have. That might be too many enzymes having the opposite effect that you are looking for!

  • Freeholdhound

    That’s where I do get NL Beef- the Sardine doesn’t seem to be in stock regularly. That’s okay the Beef is his “go to” kibble

  • Dori

    Nancy. I for one thought your example was spot on. LMAO! And for what it’s worth I think you are absolutely right. Why would More change what the summer heat will do? Won’t it just ruin more as you stated with your train/people example?

  • Crazy4cats

    No worries, I have asked so many questions of others in the last year, that I’m glad to be able to pay forward a little now. Anyway, I am feeding the grain free joint health formula. It’s in the green bag. It’s exactly same as the all life stages grain free red bag, except it has added glucosamine to it. I think that Labs uses the Ultra and Yukon grain free formulas. I use a variety of toppers. Right now, I switch between canned, dehydrated (HK), eggs, sardines and frozen raw nuggets. After being on this site for about a year now, I’ve decided even the best kibble is still kibble. I’d like to add something a little less processed to it. I’m not sure if that would be beneficial for your pup or not yet with his digestive issues.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Also, (sorry) WHICH Victors do you use? I was thinking the PURPLE bag (professional) looked good for my GSD.
    What do you like as topper? I have never used a topper.
    Thanks again.

  • Nancy Calloway

    GEEZ I ordered plain. Will send back to CHEWY and get the BD. I am wet behind my ears. Thank you so much! NL also say they add pro biotics but I fig it can’t hurt. Off to Chewy. :)

  • Crazy4cats

    Hi Nancy-
    Correct, I do believe Victor’s are synthetic. Did you order the Vetri Science Probiotics with the Bowel Defense, or just the probiotics? I order the one with the BD because it contains L-Glutamine, and some other supplements that help with loose stools besides the digestive enzymes and probiotics. I like to buy a more budget friendly kibble so that I can fit some healthy toppers in my budget. So far, Victor has been the best both for my budget and their digestive systems.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Also, what perplexes me is this PROTEIN THING. Which is better, High or Low? The upper 30’s of NL scare me because he had such bad luck at ORIGEN with their 38. But there is no way to know if it was the 38% or not. He had been doing fine on TOW and it is 32%. So in the beg I am sticking to the lower percentages until I see that he is doing okay. I sort of think it was more about the legumes and chickpeas in ORIGEN. NL looks more basic to me.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Yes. Mercola’s digestive enzymes. Have just ordered Vetri Sc Probiotics. Was worried about the heat, called them and they said they put MORE in them due to the summer heat and shipping (?). So WHY doesn’t the summer heat blast out whatever they put in? I have read 70 degrees is the max for probiotics. So WHY would more probiotics be the solution ? If they go bad at 70 then they go bad OR THEY DON”T — which is it? It’s funny to me. If a person gets run over if they run in front of a train whirling by, WHY would the problem be fixed if you were to send MORE PEOPLE in front of the train? Not a good ex but you get what I am suggesting.

    Anyway, all I can do is TRY. Lots of peo have reported at Chewy and the NL website and here that this food works well for digestive challenges. I guess we shall soon know. I will do it slowly. Very.
    Thank you again.

  • Bobby dog

    aimee:
    Thanks for re-visiting this post. I am just starting to expand my pet food criterion beyond manufacturers and ingredients. Although this is important to me and will remain part of my selection process, I am starting to look a little closer to the percentages and ratios of ingredients. I agree the accuracy of the information a company can or cannot provide is also important to consider when selecting pet food.

  • Crazy4cats

    I don’t blame you. I’m always a little nervous too. Have you tried any supplements to help with the issue? Dogaware has a lot of information in digestive health on their website. Good luck. My fingers are crossed for you!

  • Nancy Calloway

    Thank you for your input… I am a little nervous about it due to his experience with Origen and Acana.
    Ready for some normal digestive life here.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Scott Freeman the pres of NL sugg I start with Beef. But I think the lamb is less protein – not sure- so I thought I would start with Lamb. Then move to Beef. I ordered VetriPobiotic from Vetri Science at Chewy when I ordered the Lamb, and I have been giving him Mercola’s digestive enzymes.
    Wondering how you compare NL and Victors? Are Victors’ vitamins also UNsynthesized like NL or are they synthetic like everyone else? NL claims they are the ONLY company that does not use synthetic vitamins, minerals and amino acids.

  • Crazy4cats

    Yes, Nancy, I have gone through two bags of Turkey and Duck formula. My dogs did well on it once I got them transitioned. It took a couple of weeks to do that. I would probably use it again in the future if there is another “deal” available. I’m almost transitioned back to the Victor grain free now. I also always use some type of supplement as well, such as Gastriplex, VetriProbiotic BD or Perfect Form. Good luck with your dog. Which flavor are you going to feed?

  • aimee

    Eight months ago I posted about concerns I had about Nature’s Logic and why I could not feel comfortable feeding their foods. I questioned the accuracy of the posted nutrient analysis.The posted NA’s are all nearly identical, and the inverse Ca/P reported for Beef remains, 2.123 Ca and 2.94 P. Mr Freeman said new values would be posted shortly.

    Five months ago I asked Mr Freeman about the reported Ca/P levels in the beef kibble. He said he didn’t know where the posted Ca information came from (nearly all recipes report 2.123% Ca) but he had sent all the current NA information for each formula to his webmaster and it would be posted by the end of that week.

    The information on his site remains essentially the same.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Betsy, I cannot agree more. Scott is great. I have a trust in them too. I have not started the transition yet with my GSD and I am PRAYING it will work, because like you I feel that this food really is special. Chewy.com has some good and helpful reviews for those of you who are still not sure. I just hope my GSD will gain back the weight he lost on that Hill’s WD food (if you can call it that). He lost from 70 pounds to 63 pounds! WD is low fat. But I understand it is bad for them to gain weight fast. Crossing fingers. The change starts soon.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Consider calling the company and talking to them about it.

  • Nancy Calloway

    I thought the moisture content is 5%. Go check. I have searched this site and talked to the president and a rep several times due to the horrible 6 week bout with horrible diarrhea. My sense is that this company is focused about their foods being top notch. I love the NO synthetic anything. Somewhere I think I remember their saying they are the ONLY company that does not use synthetic additions to the food.

  • Nancy Calloway

    TRY CHEWY.com

  • Nancy Calloway

    Which VICTOR was that?

  • Nancy Calloway

    So — It’s been 2 months since this post. Have you tried the NL kibble yet? I am about to start my GSD on it — he’s had digestive troubles since March and my fingers are crossed. Sometimes I think if a dog can live off of HILLS Rx WD for a month they can live off ANYTHING. Let us know how you’ve done on NL. Thanks.

  • Nancy Calloway

    There are specific positive reasons for the small kibble. I do not know enough to debate it, but continue researching or ask them about it.

  • Freeholdhound

    Absolutely stainless-sorry should’ve have stated that :(

  • losul

    If you use chain, can I suggest making sure it is a stainless steel chain and not galvanized? Galvanized has a zinc coating on ordinary steel to prevent rusting. Zinc can leach into water/liquids, especially acidic or soft water and could cause a chronic toxicity.

  • Freeholdhound

    Not big at all. I snake it around in the bowl. He has to eat between the links or nuzzle it around – either way it slows him down.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Gee how BIG is the chain? My dog uses the slow eater metal bowl from Amazon. It really helps. The chain might work better. Thank you.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Yes, I too have written the company with Questions and heard back the same afternoon within hours! Impressed. I hope our dog does well with the food because I surely do like what I see and have experienced!

  • Nancy Calloway

    I agree with everything you just said. It is a very impressive site. I like the factual information available on the site and it references the actual scientific data and sources from which the information comes. For me, the website was educational.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Suggest you read some of the testimonials at the NL site. There are many. Also at Chewy.com there are numerous people who have had great luck with this food following difficulties with digesting other brands. I have not tried it YET with our dog. He is in a holding pattern with a Sensitive Stomach food. I plan to transition him in a month to NL. I also considered Victors and Dr. Tims but the NON SYNTHETIC vitamins/ supplements and the montmorillonite clay in NL are attractive to me.

  • Nancy Calloway

    I will tell you that I had terrible problems with diarrhea when I transitioned my 20 mo old GSD from Taste Of Wild High Prairie to Origen AND Acana – 38% protein. Vet thought the O and A were too rich for him. Taste of Willd was fine for him but I am afraid of Diamond. So he is in an Interim period with Purina Pro Select Sensitive Stomach and is doing well on it. In a month or so when his system is calmed I plan to put him on Nature’s Logic Beef or Lamb. I read the information written on their food, the whys etc.. and why all the supplements are NOT synthetic. I am impressed and just hope our dog does well on it. Best of luck to you.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Agreed! NL has been a regular part of my rotation for a couple years now, and no issues whatsoever.

  • Betsy Greer

    I’ve fed Nature’s Logic and neither of my dog’s developed sebaceous cysts, so I would think that yes, it could possibly be coincidence.

  • Bobby dog

    Hi Nancy:
    What foods are you having better results with?

  • SP

    Would you mind sharing what other foods you’re trying now please?

    I tried Nature’s Logic once several months ago, & my chi developed a sebaceous cyst which he’d never gotten before.

    I recommended Nature’s Logic to my friend because it sounded really good, & her yorkie developed a sebaceous cyst also. I asked her if it coincided with her feeding Nature’s Logic, & she said, “Yes.”

    I finished out the bag & never bought another bag. My friend gave me the rest of her bag (only 25% left) & never bought another bag.

    The sebaceous cyst went away after we both stopped feeding Nature’s Logic.

    Coincidence?

    I’m back to Fromm Four Star Grain Free & Amicus. I got a sample of Farmina (wild boar flavor), but the kibble sizes are like the size of Mentos, too large for my chi. He won’t eat it.

  • LabsRawesome

    Does your dog have an illness? I was just wondering because I have never tested any of my dogs urine, so I wouldn’t know what the PH is. And why are they having bloodwork done?

  • Nancy Hess Jocoy

    I gave a very positive review of this months ago. I have since changed due to high urine pH (consistenly around 8,0) and also have some osteophytes on the elbows (not sure if it is or is not related to the high calcium content and ratios or just genetic). I fed for over a year in rotation and met another person this weekend who had the same issue with the urine.

    I really like the idea behind the food and the sourcing of the ingredients but am getting better results, coat and bloodwork on other foods. I may keep some of the lower calcium formulas in the rotation though maybe once a year or so.

    FWIW, I always soaked the food for 30 minutes.

  • sseavey

    Thanks, Maya’s mom. It has been a month since we started transitioning him over to NL. I will look into the Canine Caviar Lamb and Pearl Millet.

  • sseavey

    Thank you, SP . We will look at the different foods offered by NL. We will also try the pumpkin…great idea!

  • SP

    If you’re set on sticking with Nature’s Logic, try the Lamb flavor which has a slightly lower protein level (32%)
    http://www.natureslogic.com/products/dog-products/canine-dry-kibble-lamb/

    I agree, the rabbit, at 38%, is rich & likely what is causing the diarrhea.

    Also, add PURE pumpkin (NOT pumpkin pie filling which has added spices) to the mix to bulk up the stools.
    Get any brand at the grocery store or get it here
    (check out the reviews)
    http://www.chewy.com/dog/nummy-tum-tum-pure-organic-pumpkin/dp/35533

  • Maya’smom

    Could be the protein level is too high for him. How long have you had him on this food. I have had good luck with Canine Caviar Lamb and Pearl Millet it is lower in protein and has done wonders for my girl. It could be just the rabbit, you could also try a different protein source.

  • sseavey

    Hi, we adopted a six month old cattle dog puppy who has a very sensitive stomach. He was on Life’s Abundance when we adopted him and we changed him over to Nature’s Logic rabbit meal. He has not done well on this food. We contacted the company and they were very responsive. They said to cut his food back by a third and to serve his kibble wet. We did this but he is still having problems with it (diarrhea). Our vet has ruled out any health problems and feel we need to change his food. We really wanted this food to work for our pup (it seems to be the best on the market) but sadly, it hasn’t.

  • Freeholdhound

    Local stores here have Sojos & Natures Variety – my dog doesn’t do well on either. I order my raw goodies online from Hare Today or My Pet Carnivore, or Steve Browns pre mix. The only thing I can walk into a store & buy is his Earthborn Holistic (and that just became available).

  • Betsy Greer

    Nice. : )

  • Kevin Stockfish

    I work part-time at a pet store in Raleigh, NC and we sell several different frozen raw options fortunately! In regards to frozen raw, we sell Answer’s, Nature’s Logic, Primal, Vital Essentials, Stella & Chewy’s and Bravo, all of which are great options if interested in raw!

  • dchassett

    I haven’t seen Nature’s Logic frozen around me, I’ll have to inquire and see if they can order it for me. Answer’s frozen raw is one of the raw foods in my dogs rotation. They also eat Primal, Stella & Chewy’s and, of course, Darwins. My girls are on an all raw rotation. I don’t feed kibble. I’m thinking of adding Ziwipeak canned (they claim not to have bha in the cans) but I haven’t decided. Thought it sounded good for a change, a lot of posters here are happy with it.

  • Freeholdhound

    You’re lucky to be able to feed the Answers & Natures Logic Raw Frozen – no where to be found around me. I agree that for my dog Natures Logic is the best kibble available.

  • Kevin Stockfish

    In my opinion, Nature’s Logic is arguably the best quality dry kibble on the market. It is the only dry food that does not utilize synthetic vitamins and minerals. All of the vitamins and minerals come from whole food sources such as: almonds, dried apricot, dried blueberry, dried cranberry, etc. Also, the kibble is very small in size, which aids in digestion.

    Among other positives, the company has great sourcing of its ingredients, as well as all of their dry formulas exclude higher glycemic ingredients in potatoes, sweet potatoes and peas which are common ingredients in numerous grain free formulas (Nature’s Logic is technically not GF, but all it has is millet, which is classified as a hypoallergenic grain). Yet another positive is that there are several different protein sources to choose from if interested in rotating. I recommend the sardine meal formula to improve coat/skin due to the inclusion of sardine oil in the kibble. Also, this particular formula has very low fat% at only 8%, but a very high quality protein% at 36% to help your pet(s) maintain or lose weight. All other formulas (chicken, beef, lamb, venison, rabbit and duck/salmon) are great as well, but I just wanted to note that the sardine meal serves unique purposes.

    Personally, I feed Nature’s Logic frozen raw and Answer’s frozen raw, but I certainly believe that Nature’s Logic dry kibble is a great option for all of the reasons listed above and many more. Lastly, I certainly recommend taking a look at their website, if you haven’t done so already, because their updated website is very well detailed!

  • Freeholdhound

    I feed the Beef or the Sardine formulas. My dog has many food issues so I have to avoid certain ingredients or his “output” is horrible. NL or Earthborn Holistic Great Plains Feast are the only kibbles I’ve found so far for him. I’ll be trying out the new Acana singles recipes when they come out this summer (fingers crossed).

  • Nicole

    Does anyone feed this to their fur-kids with sensitive tummies? Right now, I’m keeping my dog on a bland diet since she had a rough start when we first adopted her. I’m essentially looking for a high-quality kibble that isn’t too rich and not crazy high in the protein %. One of the members pointed me in this direction, and the pet supply store near my home carries this brand. Any insight would be great!
    PS – I won’t be switching my pup 100% until later this year. I just want to start testing the waters. :)

  • Dave’s Hounds

    Angie,

    I spent 18 months in Toronto (was transferred) and I had to drive to Buffalo to get NL and all of the canned I like. I could not find it anywhere in Toronto – I even called the company. Glad you found it.

  • dchassett

    Huh? I did not know that. I don’t feed any kibble at all anymore but it is good information to have. The larger kibble size was the only time they didn’t swallow their kibble whole. They would bite and chew pieces off. If I fed them a small kibble more in kind with their size they would just swallow the kibble whole.

  • theBCnut

    I’ve always had large dogs and there is no kibble large enough to keep them from swallowing it whole, but larger kibble is much more likely to swell a lot in the stomach and digestive enzymes have a harder time getting to the interior of the kibble pieces, so they aren’t digested as well.

  • dchassett

    When my toy breed dogs ate kibble I purposely fed them the larger size kibble because it forced them to chew. Two of my dogs would just inhale and swallow everything whole. With the larger kibble sizes, because my dogs are so so small, they had no choice but to chew. I had tried the slow feed type bowls which had no effect on them. They still inhaled and swallowed whole small kibbles. I’m no longer on kibble for any of them but I do remember it made a huge difference in them the size of the kibble.

  • Freeholdhound

    Wish I could, but it’s got turkey in it (Big no-no here). I have to stick with the Beef or Sardine formulas only.

  • Freeholdhound

    Yes, I have read that. I use just enough water to bring out the smell (gotta get the needle nose interested with him). I also use a length of chain in the bowl to slow him down.

  • Freeholdhound

    Harry LOVES sardines, kefir, & gets enzymes also. I slip a little coconut oil in 3x’s a week, but he can’t tolerate too much. Salmon he can’t tolerate at all.

  • theBCnut

    My JRT does great on large flat kibble, even as big as a dime, but I’m with you, I don’t want large round kibbles, but then I prefer the digestability of smaller or flat kibbles for my larger dogs too.

  • Zanes mom

    Thanks to all that replied! I guess I was just surprised to see something that small. We are still in the transition stage but he seems to love it. I do add water and a canned topper plus eggs and sardines three days a week. He also gets digestive enzymes and kefir daily. I tried giving him coconut oil but he doesn’t like it or fish oil and yet he’ll drool over the sardines. Go figure.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Hi SP-
    that pertains to water served separately from the dry, not water used to soak kibble. In theory, kibble that has been soaked/moistened prior to feeding should not expand as much in the stomach. They actually have no clue as to what causes it, just a lot of theory.
    Personally I would suggest any one with a bloat prone breed tack the stomach at spay time on the girls, and the boys as well if financially feasible. My two dober gals had their stomachs tacked since the vet was “already in there” and it was cheap to do. The male did not as I did not want them to cut open his abdomen for “no reason” when he was neutered.

  • Melissaandcrew

    I have to say, I have never had a problem with the littles and dry food-But, I would NOT feed a large “round” kibble. Flat pieces do not seem to be a problem even for my 6lb er

  • SP

    Hi. You might already know this about Greyhounds, but please watch out for bloat, which can be fatal, & can be related to water with food & eating quickly…

    “Dogs that drink a large amount of water with their meals also can
    experience bloat more than others. You will want to limit the amount of
    water a dog takes with its meals. It might be due to the additional air
    that is taken in with the food that causes bloat or some other unknown
    factor.

    Here’s the entire article
    http://petsency.com/dogs/bloat-in-greyhounds/

    Plus this other article
    http://www.greenhounds.com.au/Uploads/File/Bloat.pdf

  • Freeholdhound

    I use the Sardine and the Beef favors – all small sized kibble. I have an 80 lb Greyhound & it’s not a problem for him (I do add some water) as he doesn’t chew any food & just inhales it.

  • LabsRawesome

    I have two large dogs and one small dog. The kibble I use is tiny. My large dogs do not have any problems eating the small kibble. And I like it because I can use the same kibble for all three. I have seen people ask the same question as you, and I don’t know why people think that big dogs will have a problem with small kibble. But small dogs can definitely have problems (choking) with large kibble.

  • theBCnut

    I think all of their kibbles are small. You can add a little canned or add enough water for the kibble to absorb it all. Either of these measures make it easier for large dogs to eat smaller kibbles.

  • Zanes mom

    I recently ordered the Duck and Salmon to try in my dog’s rotation. I loved everything I researched and read about it. In fact I e-mailed a couple of questions to the company and received a rapid reply which is a BIG plus in my mind. Now for the downside, the kibble is tiny and I have a big/giant dog so I’m not sure now it is going to go. Now I’m wondering about their other varieties so it looks like another e-mail is in order or if someone can help with the info I would appreciate it. Thanks!

  • Angie

    Thanks theBCnut,
    I will give it a go and see how my two handles it.

  • Angie

    Thanks Storm,

    I’m in Toronto and there’s a store down the street from me that has NL Rabbit in stock where I would have to special order Nature Variety LID Rabbit. I will probably try NL Rabbit First and see how it goes!

    Thank you,
    Angie

  • theBCnut

    Two of my dogs do great on it, but one does not. The one that doesn’t has food sensitivities, so how he does on a food does not necessarily mean anything about the food except that it has an ingredient that he can’t handle. Give it a try.

  • Storm’s Mom

    I’ve fed Nature’s Logic Rabbit as part of the rotation.. and in fact I just finished feeding a bag of Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Rabbit to see which one I’d add to the rotation, so I’d suggest checking that one out too (I am also in Canada, and Nature’s Variety Instinct is easier to find than Nature’s Logic here (BC)). Storm did MUCH better on Nature’s Logic than on Nature’s Variety Instinct, so I’m leaning toward NL, but I do like that Nature’s Variety has ingredients that are quite a bit different than other foods in Storm’s rotation (which already includes a couple other NL varieties). Personally, I’d give both a try and see which one your dog does better on, as every dog is different, and yours might do better on Nature’s Variety. Also probably depends on what else is in your rotation, too (NL Rabbit also has turkey, so something to keep in mind, too) ….I’d try whichever one’s the most different first.

    Hope that helps!

  • Angie

    I am thinking about adding the Rabbit formula to my dog’s rotation since they haven’t had any Rabbit and in Canada its hard to get Rabbit dog food.

    Does anyone feed this to their dogs?

  • Crazy4cats

    Well, I already have two 80 pounders, what could another tiny little puppy hurt? Lol! Actually, I think I’d be better off just coming clean with the hidden food. We already have a zoo.

  • dchassett

    Oh No! I’ve got three and though hubby would allow it, I know my limitations. Or do I? No, No, really I do. Anyway, I think it would really be too overwhelming for Hannah our really old gal. It took her a really long time to get accustomed to Katie and Lola. I wouldn’t do anything to upset the quality of her life at this point. Though a little bitty puppy sounds so sweet. A needful rescue sounds even sweeter. Nope, can’t do it.

  • theBCnut

    I like this solution, but I don’t think my better half will go for it at this time.

  • theBCnut

    The UPS guy almost always comes to my house while I’m gone, so I never get the chance to hide anything. I actually had to sign for a package for the first time in years the other day and the driver knows what sort of companies I get stuff from so well that he even commented on it. What can I say, it was my husband’s package, computer junk, not dog stuff.

  • neezerfan

    Simple answer here. Get another dog, that’s what I did!

  • Crazy4cats

    Oh my!! I guess I’m in…… good company? Lol!

  • Betsy Greer

    Count me in. I hide dog food. I need therapy.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    haha you’re just like me! My parents are always on me about how much I spend on the girls so I’ll track my shipments so I know what day they’re coming, wait outside and try to catch the ups guy (usually he comes around the same time), then take everything in the backdoor. If someone saw me they’d probably think I was up to some shady business.

  • LabsRawesome

    LMAO.

  • Freeholdhound

    Count me in too!!

  • theBCnut

    Count me in.

  • dchassett

    I think there are a few of us that will be joining that therapy group with you. LOL!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Haha I could totally picture gertie doing that, except she’d be floating around with tripe and rmbs instead of fruit.

  • Crazy4cats

    Hi-
    So, this past weekend our local fancy feed store had a special that if you bought any 20 lb or more bag of dog food, you could get one full case of Merrick canned food for free. I decided that this was just too good of a deal to pass up even though I had just bought a 50 lb bag of Victor G/F a week before. So since the local store does not carry Victor, I somehow justified buying a more expensive brand that I wouldn’t normally buy. I bought a bag of Nature’s Logic Duck, Turkey and Salmon. I am so crossing my fingers that my dogs will do well on it. They have been so great on the Victor. It will be probably a month before I try it, however. So now, I have two big bags of dog food and I felt guilty about spending the money. And I feel like I have to hide it from my family. LOL! Instead of hiding expensive purses and jewelery like regular gals do, I’m hiding dog food. What has happened to me? I’m going to have to join a therapy group! I’ll do a slow transition to the food and hope for the best.

  • LabsRawesome

    My kitty Dakota does it too. :)

  • LabsRawesome

    OMGoodness! Gertie is so adorable! Here’s a pic I think you might enjoy. :) http://www.cnbc.com/id/101491970?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity

  • LabsRawesome

    She loves her RMB’S!!

  • Beth Knuth

    Butch too is getting whiter teeth from his raw Darwin’s and I have a supply of turkey necks coming!

  • Beth Knuth

    my sister does the same thing, her dog will pick the toy at Pet Supplies Plus and that is it, always is what they call a sucky ball, so she ordered a box and she keeps one always available, just like yours they don’t last long. I love all these stories of wonderful homes!

  • Crazy4cats

    What pretty white teeth she has!

  • theBCnut

    LOL!! I bet DQ is closer to you than to me.

  • Betsy Greer

    Go! We just made a DQ run ourselves!

  • theBCnut

    10:08pm here and now I’m dying to go for ice cream!!! Thanks a lot. Boy, that sounds good!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    lol! Gertie was a massive puppy. She was 18 lbs. when she came home at 8 wks. Mabel was only 9 lbs. Now they’re both full grown and Gertie is only 65 lbs. and Mabel is pushing 80 lbs. Go figure.

  • Cyndi

    Awwww! Now he’s even cuter! My doberman, Moose, that I used to have used to pick out his own toys too!

  • dchassett

    I too have been tempted to roll around on my back with joy after a great Cold Stone Hot Fudge Sunday. LOL!

  • Freeholdhound

    He grabbed this giant Hedgie at Petco & would NOT let it go. I have 2 more hidden in a closet as stuffies don’t live too long with him.

  • Freeholdhound

    In the Greyhound world we call it “cockroaching” :)

  • Freeholdhound

    Cutie pie!!!

  • Cyndi

    LOL! Love that second picture, lol!!

    I have hard wood floors, but a big rug in my bedroom. Every time Bailey’s done eating, she has to go roll around on the rug in my room. I need to get a picture of her sometime…

  • Cyndi

    Awww, Harry is so handsome! Bailey used to have a little hedgehog just like that, but it didn’t last long.

  • Cyndi

    OMG!!! She is so friggin’ cute!! 4 months old, she was probably what, like 90lbs.? Lol!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Well..since we’re putting up rolling on the back pictures I had to dig this one up. Gertie when she was about 4 months old. :)

  • LabsRawesome

    Aww Harry’s so cute!! Trinity loves to roll on her back after she eats too. Lol.

  • theBCnut

    He has an amazing smile either direction. Gideon is like that, always has a smile on his face.

  • Crazy4cats

    Very cute!

  • dchassett

    I think he looks pretty darn cute right side up or upside down.

  • Freeholdhound

    To be fair… He’s much cuter right side up

  • theBCnut

    He does look rather pleased with himself.

  • Cyndi

    Awww!! He is just so cute!!!

  • Freeholdhound

    Happy Harry after his Natures Logic Beef dinner with added raw Green Tripe. Lovely ain’t he? Lol

  • Freeholdhound

    That’s an understatement LOL :)

  • LabsRawesome

    Oh yeah, I forgot your dog has allergies. That really cuts your options down.

  • Dorothy Gale

    You can get the NL Sardine at Pet Food Direct.com thats were I get mine and the Rabbit also, can not find any NL in stores in my area.

  • Freeholdhound

    I have to get my NL online and the Sardine is an iffy find. The stores around here that say they carry it only carry the wet canned food. Luckily I can get the Eathborn he also can eat at my local feed store

  • Freeholdhound

    Yes I did feed Victor for a short time. I loved the distributor I found & I think it’s a great food. Unfortunately since then I had the allergy test run & every formula has something in it that I have to avoid. Ugh. Same with Nutrisource.

  • LabsRawesome

    Hi Freeholdhound, I just noticed your post. Have you ever tried Victor? The reason I ask is, Crazy4Cats has dogs with digestive issues. And she posted that their “output” is great on Victor. I think her post is on the Victor GF page. :)

  • SP

    I don’t know about your pet store, but at mine, they will special order the flavor (like the Sardine you’re looking for) if they don’t carry it.
    The only thing is, they don’t accept returns on Special Orders.

  • Freeholdhound

    I’m back to NL myself. Finished the usual bag of Earthborn Holistic GPF & tried 4Health GF Beef (my dog didn’t seem crazy about it) and Zignature Lamb (he liked it but “output” wasn’t great which is common with him). I can only feed him the NL Beef as the Sardine formula is impossible to find. I would like to find a 3rd option but with the raw I also give him at least he’s getting some variety.

  • Gina

    I am back to Nature’s Logic after using TOTW duck and salmon for the last couple months but I was not happy with the high potato content in TOTW and the amount of gas my golden was still having and size and amount of poops. I am thinking there is just too much starch. And I was also adding digestive enzymes. I went away from NL because of the cost. I am back and trying the chicken version. This is the best I can find for the price that is free of grain, peas and white potato. I also notice that the kibble (very tiny btw) has almost no odor. I like the idea of millet too. I was impressed with the duck and salmon version and I hope this will be as good. It is slightly cheaper in the chicken.

  • llynns

    Ahhh…I didn’t even realize. Thanks for pointing that out!

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    The numbers on Nature’s Logic website (which are used in this review) are in dry matter already.

  • llynns

    I’m trying to estimate the carbs in the dry formulas from their website. They don’t list a moisture content and in this review an amount for moisture was not deducted. If a moisture percentage isn’t given, are we just not accounting for it in the calculation?

  • Freeholdhound

    I too have dog w/ multiple food intolerances. I intend to keep NL in my rotation along with Earthborn Holistic & I’ll be trying 4Health GF next with my fingers crossed. There aren’t many options out there. I try to provide as much variety as I can and not use one food 100% of the time.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi Monza79,

    I have and will continue to use Nature’s Logic products. I trust NL products and believe them to be of outstanding quality. If you have questions about NL products, I’d encourage you to call or email Scott Freeman at Nature’s Logic; and, I’m confident he can and will address your concerns. I have no hesitation to recommend NL products.

  • monza79

    Well, I thought using NL was the way to go for my dogs. One of them has allergies to Beef, Barley, Potatoes, and Green Peas. Just TRY finding a quality kibble without those ingredients. SHEESH! Now that I’m reading all of these comments, I’m getting concerned. Should I be? Is there another quality dry food out there that my allergy dog can eat?? Is this food safe?

  • Shawna

    Sorry for the delay, I only had a very short time on since I left work Friday.. :)

    I give very high value treats when I leave the house or when I am potty training a foster dog… :) Two of my dogs used to howl like crazy when I left the house. Once those two started then it would turn into a chorus of howls.. Neighbors LOVED me in the summer. Hee hee… NOW that I give them the VERY SMALL but high value treat when I leave they can’t wait to see me go… LOOK, MOM’S LEAVING, MOM’S LEAVINGGGG.. They will fall over each other trying to get to their spots they have to be in to get their treat.. :)

    I have yet to find ANY reliable data linking quality fats, eaten by a healthy dog, to causing pancreatitis. And those who do feed higher fat due to increased activity don’t seem to have increased risks of pancreatitis. My concern with high fat is simply not getting adequate protein.

    I think thin is fine as long as there is still good muscle tone. If she’s getting enough protein she should have good muscle tone, for an older less active pup that is… :)

    Ohhhh, I bet they LOVE you for feeding them the same amount of raw as you would kibble!!! Hee hee… I actually use a small “tea scale” so I can weigh in ounces (works really well with the small ones). Keep in mind that two dogs weighing the same can eat very different amounts. Example — I have two Poms and both weigh 5 pounds. Peanut is 11 years old and gets 1.5 ounces of whatever raw I’m feeding and a small teaspoon of canned twice a day (the canned for variety not cause I think they need it). Gizmo is 9 years old and gets .9 ounces (less than an ounce) twice a day with an even smaller amount of canned then what Peanut gets. She could eat more until she was spayed at which point her metabolism went all haywire — now she only gets a small amount or easily gains weight.

    Yes, I know exactly what you mean about leaving the hospital and, being as anal as I am, I even took three different parenting classes (one before she was born, one before she reached age one and the third class before she started grade school). :)

  • dchassett

    Yikes! Did not know that. My bad not knowing things like that. Gotta do more research than I already do.

  • dchassett

    Which food is your dog on now? I was going to add NL into their rotation now I’m not so sure that it’s ok to do that.

  • dchassett

    Hi Shawna. Thanks again for your reply. LOL Hannah is a good eater. She would be as happy eating paper, tissues, paper towels., food and/or the packaging the food came in. I’m blessed in that all three of my girls are great eaters. I have to say that I feed them all twice a day and once in a blue moon if I remember I’ll give them a treat (blueberries, carrots and the like). I’m a big believer that if you constantly give your dogs treats throughout the day then NO, they are not going to be hungry at meal times and I do not believe in fee feeding. So I feed them twice a day, I put their bowls down and before I leave their area, just like that, they’re done and happy campers. I often think that when I read about all these people who have picky eaters, invariably it’s folks that give their dogs a lot of snacks throughout the day and evening and then wonder why their dogs aren’t eating their meals. Their full is my theory. But that’s just me. I have been wondering about Hannah (14 years old) and really is on the thin side and I just can’t seem to get weight on her. I don’t want too much weight on her because she has two degenerated discs mid way on her spine (she looks a bit like a sway back horse) and arthritis in her hips. She also has what the vet insists is “little white dog syndrome” (HUH?). I’d never heard of it but both her back legs tremble. Not all the time and not always both at the same time but anyway I’m suppose to keep her on the thin side but she’s thinner that I think is good. And like I said she’s a real couch potato unless the door bell rings. I’m going to take your advice, as I always do, and order Darwins and Bravo. I don’t like the HPP process though Primal assures me that it’s only the chicken that they put through the HPP process not any of their other proteins and since Katie is allergic to chicken I wouldn’t be ordering it anyway. I believe them I’m just now concerned about the fat content. Can too much fat in raw feeding cause pancreatitis? We had a dog a number of years ago that had pancreatitis but that was due to her grabbing a package of hot dogs off the kitchen counter when I ran to answer the door and ate the entire package and the packaging. She was a Tibetan Terrier and lived many years after that but only after having spent three weeks in ICU at New York Animal Hospital. Scary scary scary. But I digress. She was a real character. She eventually died of liver cancer. She was what Websters should have had in their definition of a real terror. Always up to something. Still miss her dearly. I pulled a lot of my hair out over her. My mind immediately went to her when you mentioned the abundance of fat in Primal. Stupidly I was running off their site on protein and fat levels which I thought were low until I figured out what you and Dr. Mike were saying was to figure out the actual protein and fat content. So anyway I’ll feed Hannah more and Lola and Katie a bit less. After studying Dr. Mikes calculations I obviously have been feeding them way too much. Double of what I should have been feeding them twice a day. Katie and Lola are real chubaluba’s. Too much fat. I was treating it as a kibble. Feeding the same amount that I was feeding when they were on Brothers kibble. I’ll also order Honest Kitchen Preference. This is all so overwhelming. I feel like I did so many years ago when my son was born and I couldn’t believe that the hospital was actually letting me leave the hospital with this bundle of joy and it was kind of sink or swim. Scared to death to make mistakes and what were they nuts? Weren’t they going to send a nurse or somebody home with me were they actually going to let me live with a real live baby? I’m sure you know what I mean.

  • Shawna

    Don’t be embarrassed, we’ve most likely all been there. I have two that I have to watch and there’s not much improving on their diets and supps so……

    I really like Darwins — it ships direct to you, they have a lesser expensive line using conventionally raised meats and a more expensive line using grass finished meats and organic veggies. They have buffalo and beef varieties that might work. And they are very well balanced in protein to fat. They have a fantastic introductory offer if interested in giving them a try.

    The Honest Kitchen Preference when mixed with meat creates a balanced diet and is not as soupy as the others – MAY work better?

    Bravo makes a few balanced varieties that might work.

    OHHH – Bravo and Darwins are not subjected to HPP if that is a concern for you?

    Don’t be afraid to use multiple brands to get the variety you need.

    I’m picturing Hannah now —- LOL!!!! Is she a pretty good eater? As our Chihuahua got older (she’s 16) she went from needing 1.5 ounces of food per meal to needing 2 ounces or more per meal. In her case she can use the extra fat to keep weight on.. She’s still got good muscle tone so I feel she is getting the protein she needs as well.

  • dchassett

    Thanks so much for your quick reply. I’m going to look for Standard Process and if I can’t find that then I’ll buy The Missing Link. I used to give that to a bichon I had years ago, I didn’t realize that product was still around. I now have a concern that you brought up and that is the fat content of the Primal. Unfortunately as with so many others, Katie, my maltipoo has food intolerances and allergies to grain, white potatoes and all forms of poultry. Chicken and Turkey are her worst. I thought about Primal’s Sardine but it’s Turkey and Sardine. OH……..my dogs (all three) are most definitely couch potatoes. My yorkipoo, Lola, has a little more spunk and energy to her and will play fetch all day and night. Hannah, my 14 year old maltese only gets energized with the doorbell. Any suggestions you might give me I would so appreciate. I had them all on Brothers which is a fantastic food but I switched them because all the formulas have turkey in them. Tried Honest Kitchen Zeal which Katie has no issues with BUT they all have long beards and feeding time twice a day for the three of them means twice a day washing their faces and beards. Once in a while I wouldn’t mind but don’t want to do them forever. It’s so so difficult finding just the right food to give them because of all Katie’s issues. I’m embarrassed to say that I absolutely have to keep all three on something she tolerates because she is a poop eater. Yes, disgusting. I’m constantly on the look out and running to pick up the poop before she can get to it. Unfortunately my husband is not so vigilant if he lets them out. Again, any and all suggestions for would great. Thanks.

  • Shawna

    Wow dchassett, that is very very nice of you to say!!! I really really appreciate it!!!!

    Per Primal’s website, Primal Pronto Raw is a ” a complete and balanced diet, there’s nothing more to add”. So you should be good to go. For what it’s worth

    1. Primal even does a good job of balancing omega 6 to 3 which is not necessary to be considered “complete and balanced”. IF you wanted to add an omega product you’d want to add one that is also balanced in 6 to 3 (I think Halo makes one).

    2. Some of their diets are a bit high in fat for my liking. BUT if your dog/s are really active they may eat enough for this not to be a concern. If they are couch potatoes though, having such high calories from fat, day in day out, could prevent them from getting all the protein they might benefit from (or even need). If you rotate between the higher fat foods, like beef, and the lower fat foods, like turkey and sardine, you should be okay. If you are primarily feeding the higher fat foods, you can offset this by adding a small amount (less than 20% of total diet) of extra lean meats (like white meat chicken) to balance the fat to protein ratio a little better… :)

    3. I feed complete and balanced premade foods right now as my time is pretty limited and making food just isn’t an option. But, I do add supplements to increase the nutrient content of the diet. I add probiotics (I use Primal Defense but there are several good options), I add garlic off and on (in small amounts has MANY wonderful benefits), I add turmeric (fights cancer, anti-inflammatory etc), I add spirulina (good source of chlorophyll, bioavailable protein and other nutrients) and some other herbs. I take all the herbs above (and maybe a few more or a premade product like one of The Honest Kitchen supplements) and I mix them all together with a jar of enzymes. I give each dog 1/8 teaspoon of the mix with each meal. This is NOT necessary but something I do as added nutrition to the complete and balanced diet. Edit — I feed the garlic in small amounts by grating it into a small amount of olive oil, letting sit for about five to ten minutes and then mixing in with the food. I give the probiotics off and on. Maybe one or two weeks a month give daily and the other weeks don’t give at all. Kinda depends on what’s going on as to how often I give them.

    If you want to add something too but don’t want to hassle with buying in bulk and mixing, Standard Process Canine Whole Body Support is a good option or The Missing Link is another. I prefer Standard Process but it is often harder to find. Again, you don’t NEED these, these will just provide some extra whole food nutrition.. Enzymes are not necessary in a raw diet either but I do like to add them.

    Hope that helps…

  • Shin

    dchassett , the answer to your question is right on Primal’s website
    http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/list/c/15

    …where it says
    “Primal Pronto Formula is a revolutionary way to feed raw foods to your pet.

    And because Primal Pronto is a complete and balanced diet, there’s nothing more to add. Just scoop and serve. Primal Pronto thaws in minutes!

    It’s the same formulation as our raw frozen formulas, but in a bite-sized, quick-thaw format. Raw feeding doesn’t get any easier than this.”

  • dchassett

    HI Shawna. Quick question? I’m feeding my three dogs Primal Pronto Raw. Do I need to add supplements and if so, which do you use? Or do you mean people who make their own raw? I would never trust myself to get it right making it myself which is why I have them on the Primal Pronto but now don’t know if I’m suppose to be adding supplements. Thank you much. I always rely on you and your posts to guide and advise me as to what I’m doing right but most importantly what I may be potentially doing wrong. Thanks.

  • aimee

    So far so good then Eh? I heard spray cheese in a can works well to hide pills in. Make a line than a space with a blob with the pill followed by another line ——– X ——-

  • Crazy4cats

    Thank you, Aimee. I fed her first dosage tonight. I cut up real small and mixed with a little wet food. She ate it! Luckily, right now, it’s just once a day. I can keep an eye on her in the afternoon. I would like to try the radioactive iodine treatment, but it is very expensive. Thanks again, for your concern.

  • aimee

    If you have trouble ask your vet about flavored chew treats or liquids, or transdermal gel. If absolutely impossible to medicate and she’ll eat it Hills makes a food specific for this problem

  • Crazy4cats

    Right, in cats they are not really sure what causes hyperthyroidism. But, the prime suspects are PBDES (commonly found in fire retardants and fish), soy, BPA (can linings) and excessive iodine (also in fish). Tiki’s initial comment was that “way too much phosphorous can cause hyperthyroidism.” Which I believe is inaccurate. Unfortunately, I fed my cats the Fancy Feast seafood canned along with their dry kibble for years, thinking I was giving them a great treat. I now really regret that. So, for you fellow DFAers that own cats, please limit the amount of canned cat food that contains fish in their diets. There seems to be a connection.

  • Shawna

    Dr. Dodds actually does have an article regarding this study..

    “Dr. Peterson’s “Bottom Line”:
    In man, community-wide outbreaks of “hamburger thyrotoxicosis,” resulting from inadvertent consumption of ground beef contaminated with bovine thyroid gland, have been previously reported (3,4). These outbreaks resulted in the banning of “gullet trimming,” in which meat in the neck region of slaughtered animals is ground into hamburger. Because thyroid tissue is similar in color to muscle meat, it is possible for gullet
    trimmers to include the thyroid gland when meat is ground into hamburger
    or sausage. People, and presumably pets, that eat such contaminated hamburger or gullet tissue can ingest doses of thyroid hormone sufficient to induce disease.

    Since none of the dogs in this report were being supplemented with
    L-thyroxine, the most likely cause of their high T4 concentrations and clinical signs of thyrotoxicosis was the feeding of a meat diet that had been contaminated with thyroid tissue. The fact that all dogs improved after stopping the diet is also in agreement with that premise.

    The rationale behind the concept of BARF (an acronym for Biologically
    Appropriate Raw Food) is that this is the type of diets dogs were programmed to eat during their evolutionary development (6). Therefore, the BARF diet represents a biologically-appropriate food for dogs, rather than cooked or processed foods. With a BARF diet, the perfect meal would contain muscle meat, bone, fat, organ meats, vegetable and fruit materials combined in precisely the correct balance, just as nature intended.

    In the dogs of this report, it is obvious that the correct balance was not maintained and a very large amount of raw thyroid gland tissue ended up in their raw meat diet. As is the case with the exogenous L-T4, these natural thyroid hormones are not destroyed by gastric acid and can then be absorbed, leading to high concentration of circulating T4
    and clinical sign of hyperthyroidism.” http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/44184852022/dietary-dog-hyperthyroidism#.UtgHsLQhFAg

  • Shawna

    I totally missed that!!! I would assume that they would at least attempt to balance the diet…? Of course they are going to find abnormalities on a completely unbalanced diet!!

    Thanks Patty.

  • Pattyvaughn

    This report sounds like they are talking about an unbalanced raw diet like we see people come here with. Ground beef and maybe a couple vegetables, no calcium or any of several other things. That’s why they call it a raw meat diet, not a raw diet.

  • Shawna

    Not in every case.. Hypothyroid can be caused by an iodine deficiency. The deficiency can occur because not enough is eaten or because the digestive tract is damaged and not absorbing enough iodine.

    Hyperthyroid can be brought on by the consumption of certain excitotoxins. Janet Star Hull has a book titled “Sweet Poison”. The book describes her battle with hyperthyroid caused by the consumption of aspartame in diet soda pops. After she made the connection between the aspartame and hyperthyroid (literally weeks before she was scheduled to have her thyroid irradiated), she cured her uncurable disease by quitting diet soda.

    “My 1st report on aspartame-related Graves’ disease. 4 described 4 weight-conscious women with hyperthyroidism who experienced
    dramatic remissions within several weeks to 3 months of avoiding
    aspartame.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387446/

    Of course, we aren’t giving our dogs and cats diet soda but the freed amino acid, aspartic acid, is found in aspartame as well as hydrolyzed foods, flavor enhancers, brewers dried yeast and nutritional yeast etc.

  • Shawna

    I imagine they would have to eat a lot of thyroids to overdose on iodine that way.? Additionally, if there were truly a risk of hyperthyroid and raw diets I am certain Dr. Dodds would be one of the first to recommend against them.

    I don’t think even one of the raw diets I feed contains any thyroid (or gullet). The supplements I use do but not the foods.

  • aimee

    Ross C.

    Also puzzling is that the calcium and phos levels reported for all the dry diets except beef are 2.123 ca and 1.3 phos. The beef’s Ca is also reported as 2.123 the same as it is for all of the other dry varieties but the phos is different. Weird

    If you look across NA for the dry products you will see they are all nearly identical. The beef variety is the exception, some of the mineral numbers vary while vit and AA same as all the other profiles, It’s a puzzle.

    I don’t have faith that any of these numbers are accurate.

  • Crazy4cats

    I love it!

  • Pattyvaughn

    I guess we tend to not just take everything at face value, so when something makes absolutely no sense at all, we look into it and then share accurate info. So it may not matter to you that you were inaccurate, but it came to matter to us. I guess we don’t think there is ever enough education/info. Good luck to you.

  • Crazy4cats

    Thank you. Vet says that we caught it pretty early. Hopefully a low dose will keep it under control. Now getting her to take it is going to be the problem!

  • TIKI

    Doesn’t matter food change resolved both issues. Sorry for your cat,what a bummer.

  • TIKI

    I already said my dog had both. I already have discussed it with my vet. I think I have all info I need on that, just wanted to share my experience. Have a good one.

  • Crazy4cats

    You did not say hyperparathyroidism in your first statement. And believe me, I have been doing a lot of research regarding this matter. My cat will be starting her treatment tomorrow.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I want one of those!!

  • Pattyvaughn

    The parathyroid is by the thyroid, but it is not part of the thyroid. That may be where part of everybody’s misunderstanding is coming from. Are you talking about hyperparathyroidism or hyperthyroidism?

  • Betsy Greer

    It appears as though you posted on this site for the first time ever this afternoon. You aren’t registered, so no one can see your previous comments.

    I have no idea why you started in with the attitude toward me right out of the gate.

    Welcome to DFA.

    I’ll not respond to you any further.

  • TIKI

    I think they (orijen)have recently improved it but it used to be worse.

  • TIKI

    My dog had both. Food change fixed the problems.

  • TIKI

    You asked me 2 questions not one. I thought you asked me if I am ross and if I work for a food company.

  • losul

    Why do you say that Origen doesn’t have the proper balance? I assume you are talking about the Ca/P ratio.

    edit: obviously the beef nature’s logic didn’t or doesn’t have the proper ratio

  • aimee

    I never heard of any connection between phos. and hyperthyroidism.

    Only thing that comes to mind is nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism with low calcium diets. This would give an inverse Ca/Ph ratio but I think the problem relates to not enough Ca vs excessive Phos.

    There is a report of dogs on raw diets being diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. The result of eating thyroids…”Dietary hyperthyroidism can be seen in dogs on a raw meat diet or fed fresh or dried gullets.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22931400

  • TIKI

    It is not extremely rare. You may be misinformed. You may want to do a bit more research on hyperparathyroidism, hypertyroidism. Parathyroid is part og the thyroid. If you don’t have the proper balance of cal,phos it can create all kinds of isses depending on the dog. That is why I stay away from Foods that don’t have the proper balance. I am just sharing my experience.

  • LabsRawesome
  • Ross C.

    It is all puzzling. Also, in order to substantiate for “all life stages” through a feeding trial you must feed trial not only adults but puppies and probably pregnant females as well. Does this company have those kind of resources? The statements on all but the chicken food are very odd and confusing and I have never seen that before. Some states must not care I suppose.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Sorry for the double posts. Disqus is being acting up as usual. My first post didn’t appear to go through so I reposted.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    A food can substantiate itself as “complete and balanced” with either an AAFCO feeding trial or by meeting AAFCO’s nutrient guidelines. Most often even foods that undergo feeding trials still conform to AAFCO’s nutrient guidelines however if a food does not meet the guidelines but passes a feeding trial the food can still be labeled as complete and balanced. It’s rare that a company will attempt to achieve nutritional adequacy this way but it appears to be what Nature’s Logic did.

    The difference is in the wording of the adequacy statement. A food that conforms to AAFCO’s guidelines will read “XXX is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for (whatever life stage).” A food that has passed feeding trials only will read “Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that XXX provides complete and balanced nutrition for (whatever life stage).”

    What I noticed, however, is that in the FAQ section Nature’s Logic claims they used AAFCO feeding trials however, aside from the chicken formula which reads: “Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Nature’s Logic Natural Chicken Meal Dinner Fare provides complete and balanced nutrition for All Life Stages.” – all other formulas read “Nature’s Logic XXX Dinner Fare provides complete and balanced nutrition for All Life Stages and is comparable in nutritional adequacy to a product which has been substantiated using AAFCO feeding tests.”

    So I’m assuming that the chicken formula is the one which actually underwent the feeding trial and the others are the formulas that fell under the “family rule.”

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Thanks for pointing that out about the family rule. Someone had mentioned that previously but I had forgotten.

    As far as the feeding trials, typically foods that undergo feeding trials do conform to AAFCO guidelines however feeding trials can be used as a way of achieving a “complete and balanced” status without conforming the AAFCO guidelines. It’s very rare that a company will attempt to achieve “complete and balanced” status this way but that’s apparently what NL did.

    The difference will be in the adequacy statements. “Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that XXX provides complete and balanced nutrition for All Life Stages” versus “XXX Recipe Dog Food is
    formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog
    Food Nutrient Profiles for All Life Stages” (which is what most foods read).

    So, in short, a food that does not meet AAFCO guidelines can still be labeled as “complete and balanced” as long as it passes a feeding trial.

    What I find puzzling is the wording NL uses. In their FAQ they clearly state (or at least strongly imply) that the kibble has passed AAFCO feeding trials however the statement on the product descriptions uses the words “is comparable” to AAFCO feeding trials which implies (at least to me) that the feeding trials weren’t actually per AAFCO specifications??

  • Ross C.

    Let me correct you on that. Only one formula “passed” feeding trials. The others are assumed to have the same the result. Read the statements closely. This is the loophole I was talking about, which I cannot find for any other food and I have looked at hundreds. In any event, even foods that are feed trialed comply with AAFCO guidelines. Feed trialing is just submitted information not actually supervised by AAFCO. Please look for inconsistencies in reporting.

  • Crazy4cats

    I do want you to know, however, that I am really glad your dog is doing better with the diet change. Good luck!

  • Crazy4cats

    Wow, it is EXTREMELY rare for a dog to get hyperthyroidism, but more common to get hypOthyroidism. Although, even that has to be treated with meds life long. Hmmmm…

  • Pattyvaughn

    Yes, you are picking on the company, but if you don’t do it who will? These are important points to be brought up. And like so many things, they all point to another reason that no food should be fed long term. Rotation is the way to go.

  • TIKI

    In my case that is what it was. I even went to another vet for a second opinion. Both told me to change diets to a better cal/phos ratio food. I think there can be other causes as well but in my case it was food related.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I agree many of the nutrient levels are too low to feed exclusively long term. However, this food attained it’s complete and balanced status through feeding trials – not through conforming to the AAFCO. If a food passes a feeding trial it can label itself as complete and balanced even if it doesn’t conform to AAFCO’s nutrient standards. I think this is an example of the ineffectiveness of short-term feeding trials.

  • Ross C.

    Not only that the zinc levels in all the foods are 60% of the minimum. You are allowed to get around the minimum if you feed test but these foods have not been according to the AAFCO Statement and I have never seen a food so low in zinc before at 73 mg/kg. Zinc is one of the most important minerals and it is very hard to absorb because it can bind easily with calcium and these foods are high in calcium. I am not picking on the company but I think this is fairly important.

  • Crazy4cats

    My cat was just diagnosed with hyperthyroidism and I’ve been doing a lot of research and talking to the vet about it. No where have I seen that it is caused by high phosphorus. It is not entirely known what causes it, but it is linked to mostly indoor cats that eat a lot of canned foods that contain fish (high levels of iodine). It can only be treated with life long medicine, surgically remove thyroid, or radiology.

  • Pattyvaughn

    If you read down a bit further, you will see where I posted criticizing this foods website and some other things that I said would cause me not to use this food until they did better. Elsewhere I said that this food wouldn’t work for one of my dogs. Does that sound like someone who works for or has a business interest in this food?
    And if you go read the Nature’s Variety Instinct page, you’ll see that I said it didn’t work for one of my dogs and caused an ear infection Does that sound like someone trying to make money off of a food?
    And it would be a rare day indeed that I recommended Orijen. But I often recommend Earthborn Holistic, NutriSource, and a few others, including Annamaet. And have recently recommended Canidae and Natural Balance, even though I hate the companies that make them. I’ve also on occasion recommended Victor, Abady, Pro Pac, and Eagle. Do you really think I own stock or am a rep for all of those? And if I was a rep for even one of those, do you seriously think I would risk losing my job by promoting other foods under my name? Did you notice that we recommend specific formulas, not everything the company makes? Of course not, that would take thought.

  • Betsy Greer

    Twice no? I only asked you and Ross C. each once.

  • Shawna

    I googled it but couldn’t find ANYTHING relating the two. That’s why I was hoping you would have some references.

    Edit — if that is the case I would expect to see dogs eating a raw diet with an increased risk factor of hyperthyroidism but I have yet to see any warnings on that either. I would think that surely those vets and others opposed to raw diets would be quick to point that out..

  • Shawna

    Because I am reporting what Scott said verbatim I don’t want to make any inferences and potentially misrepresent what was stated to me. I didn’t specifically ask that. I would call Scott and ask him directly HDM..

    But, I will say that Answers had something similar on their website and the food had been reformulated for some time but the analysis had not been done immediately after the reformulation.. Yet they had to post some data so the incorrect data from the previously formulated (not sure if sold or just formulated) diet was posted. I know that Primal did the same thing as well.

    Not sure if packaging had the correct data in any of the cases?