Bil-Jac Dog Food (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★½☆

Bil-Jac Dog Food receives the Advisor’s mid-tier rating of 3.5 stars.

The Bil-Jac Dog Food product line includes nine dry recipes, two claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages, four for adult maintenance, and three for growth (Puppy).

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Bil-Jac Adult Select
  • Bil-Jac Puppy Select
  • Bil-Jac Senior Select
  • Bil-Jac Small Breed Adult
  • Bil-Jac Large Breed Adult
  • Bil-Jac Sensitive Solutions
  • Bil-Jac Small Breed Puppy
  • Bil-Jac Large Breed Puppy
  • Bil-Jac Reduced Fat (2.5 stars)

Bil-Jac Adult Select was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Bil-Jac Adult Select

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 30% | Fat = 20% | Carbs = 42%

Ingredients: Chicken, chicken by-products (organs only, source of arginine), corn meal, chicken by-product meal, oatmeal, dried beet pulp, brewers dried yeast, flaxseed, dl-methionine, l-lysine, sodium propionate and mixed tocopherols (preservatives), salt, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, riboflavin supplement, niacin, biotin, choline chloride, folic acid, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), ascorbic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, manganous oxide, inositol, BHA (a preservative), ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, zinc oxide, cobalt carbonate, potassium iodide, sodium selenite, rosemary extract

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 4.4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis27%18%NA
Dry Matter Basis30%20%42%
Calorie Weighted Basis25%40%35%

The first ingredient in this dog food lists chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The second ingredient is chicken by-products, what’s left of a slaughtered chicken after all the good cuts have been removed.

In addition to organs (the nourishing part), this stuff can include almost anything — feet, beaks, undeveloped eggs — anything (that is) but skeletal muscle (real meat).

However, here the manufacturer specifies “organ meat only” which makes this item something more desirable, and better described as chicken giblets.

Once again, this item is inclusive of water and is subject to the same drying effects of cooking previously described.

The third ingredient lists cornmeal, a coarsely ground flour made from dried corn. Corn is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

For this reason, we do not consider corn a preferred component in any dog food.

The fourth ingredient is chicken by-product meal, a dry rendered product of slaughterhouse waste. It’s made from what’s left of a slaughtered chicken after all the prime cuts have been removed.

In addition to organs (the nourishing part), this stuff can contain almost anything — feet, beaks, undeveloped eggs — anything except quality skeletal muscle (conventional meat).

On the brighter side, by-product meals are meat concentrates and contain nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

In any case, although this item contains all the amino acids a dog needs, we consider chicken by-products an inexpensive, lower quality ingredient.

The fifth ingredient is oatmeal, a whole-grain product made from coarsely ground oats. Oatmeal is naturally rich in B-vitamins, dietary fiber and can be (depending upon its level of purity) gluten-free.

The sixth ingredient lists beet pulp. Beet pulp is a controversial ingredient, a high fiber by-product of sugar beet processing.

Some denounce beet pulp as an inexpensive filler while others cite its outstanding intestinal health and blood sugar benefits.

We only call your attention here to the controversy and believe the inclusion of beet pulp in reasonable amounts in most dog foods is entirely acceptable.

The seventh ingredient is brewers yeast can be a controversial item. Although it’s a by-product of the beer making process, this ingredient is rich in minerals and other healthy nutrients.

Fans believe yeast repels fleas and supports the immune system.

Critics argue yeast ingredients can be linked to allergies. This may be true, but (like all allergies) only if your particular dog is allergic to the yeast itself.

In addition, a vocal minority insists yeast can increase the risk of developing the life-threatening condition known as bloat. However, this is a claim we’ve not been able to scientifically verify.

In any case, unless your dog is specifically allergic to it, yeast can still be considered a nutritious additive.

What’s more noteworthy here is that brewers yeast contains about 48% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The eighth ingredient is flaxseed, one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With three notable exceptions

First, we find no mention of probiotics, friendly bacteria applied to the surface of the kibble after processing to help with digestion.

Next, the minerals listed here do not appear to be chelated. And that can make them more difficult to absorb. Non-chelated minerals are usually associated with lower quality dog foods.

And lastly, this food is preserved with BHA, a suspected cancer-causing agent.

Bil-Jac Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Bil-Jac Dog Food looks like a below average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 30%, a fat level of 20% and estimated carbohydrates of about 42%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 27% and a mean fat level of 18%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 48% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 65%.

Near-average protein. Near-average fat. And near-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effects of the brewers dried yeast and flaxseed, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a moderate amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Bil-Jac Dog Food is a plant-based kibble using a moderate amount of chicken and chicken by-products as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 3.5 stars.

Recommended.

However, BHA phobics may wish to ignore our rating and look elsewhere for another product.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content.

Special Alert

Rice ingredients can sometimes contain arsenic. Until the US FDA establishes safe upper levels for arsenic content, pet owners may wish to limit the total amount of rice fed in a dog's daily diet.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Other spellings: Biljac, Bil-Jac

Notes and Updates

02/21/2010 Original review
07/10/2010 Review updated
09/24/2010 Review updated
12/17/2010 Review updated (menadione removed)
11/20/2011 Review updated
04/11/2012 Review updated
04/21/2013 Added AAFCO profile statements
10/12/2013 Review updated
10/12/2013 Last Update

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Actually, it was looked at individually. Maybe it got a demotion for the BHA and chicken by-product meal (which is not specified as organs only).

  • Billybob207

    Lets face it. A natural normal diet for canines would be raw or still alive squirrels and birds. They would be eaten entirely if our sweetheart was hungry enough. I suspect there are important nutrients in fur, feathers, bones and guts. I don’t think peas and potatoes were generally available for ancient doggies. I think maybe we over think this pet food thing. But it does make us feel good, eh?

  • Bryce Carmichael

    I like how this website states about this Bil Jac food… “The second ingredient is chicken by-products, what’s left of a slaughtered chicken after all the good cuts have been removed. In addition to organs (the nourishing part), this stuff can include almost anything — feet, beaks, undeveloped eggs — anything (that is) but skeletal muscle (real meat).”… Even though the bag of Bil Jac states, “chicken by-products (organs only, source of arginine)”. This food gets a demotion all because dogfoodadvisor can’t look at each product individually. They cookie cut the comment. Yes, they state in the next comment that the bag mentions “organs only”. But they still have to make their lame cut and paste.

  • Ms.K

    I had a healthy Yorkie for many years. I changed his food a few times in his life, trying to get better nutritional values in his diet. Bill and Jac had a display at the pet store and Oscar, my Yorkie, loved it. He ate it for about 6-7 months, got cancer and died 2 weeks after he was diagnosed. The vet said it was VERY rare for an older dog to get his type of cancer. I have no proof, but have always thought this food may have contributed to death. I would never feed this product to any of my animals in the future.

  • chris

    Tried the food, my dog got sick. Now he is dead.

  • theBCnut
  • kingsqueen

    I have a 7 yr old chorkie and made the switch to bil-jac a year ago. I got the extra wieght off but now he has been diagnosed diabetic. Should I change his food and if so to what?

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    You said, “How NICE of you to decide what dog food is based on some organization that has minimum standards for what they deem acceptable dog food.”

    Did you say “some organization”?

    Your ignorance of the fact that EVERY dog food sold in the U.S. or Canada (including Bil-Jac) must meet the standards of the Association of American Feed Control Officials.

    That’s because the US Food and Drug Administration requires (by Law) the use of AAFCO nutrient profiles by EVERY pet food company that claims its foods are “complete and balanced” in order for their foods to be marketed to consumers.

    In addition, you also claim our reports are inaccurate because the nutrient numbers don’t agree with the label. That’s because — as we state by a link in every review posted here — that every nutrient statistic posted on this website has been mathematically converted to the scientific standard known as “dry matter basis”.

    After trying to impress our readers with your self-proclaimed mastery of the topic of pet food, you went on to boast, “I don’t need a PhD in dog food to know how to read a label at PetSmart or Petco.”

    Maybe you do. Based upon the many scientific errors you included in your rambling reply (and are too numerous to address here), a little scientific education is exactly what you DO need before you ever again take the time to so rudely lecture me and others or our factual shortcomings.

    Until you get that minimal education about pet food, your rude and mean-spirited tirades are no longer welcome in this community.

  • Daniel Franklin

    And sometimes those formulas have different compositions and the analysis for them is inherently incorrect. It’s a fact.

  • Daniel Franklin

    I’m sorry. You’re saying to me “you can’t look at my database”. You’re telling me to scour your website and get back to you when i’m finished… That would be great, except that your website already has inaccuracies… Nutro High Endurance has a guaranteed analysis of 30% protien and 20% fat, but your saying it’s much lower than that. I’m not going to bother trying if I already know that I’m incapable of obtaining accurate information from you website. I don’t need a PhD in dog food to know how to read a label at PetSmart or Petco.

    How NICE of you to decide what dog food is based on some organization that has minimum standards for what they deem acceptable dog food.

    It’s plain and simple. woof wolf asked for an honest review, and there wasn’t one available. I am still saying there was a great ingredient analysis, but an analysis of ingredients is NOT a review.

    That being said, you may feel free to remove any of my posts as I have obviously angered you and patty by pointing out things that are indeed incorrect.

  • Pattyvaughn

    When you were counting, did you take into account that this review represents 9 different foods, or did you count it as 1? Some reviews have 20 formulas covered by 1 review. It does make it more difficult to count, and I will frely admit that it can’t be exactly 20%, because Dr Mike has to draw a line somewhere and multiple foods that score the same should be rated the same rather than arbitrarily divided just because a certain number is hit. Also Dr Mike has changed how he rates some foods because of certain aspects of their ingredient list, but he revisits old reviews every 18 months, so he hasn’t yet changed some of the ones that will eventually be changed.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    You said, “I also notice that you just didn’t bother with the second half of my post. Bil-Jac is “below average” despite scoring a 3.5 out of 5 stars.

    Obviously, either your opinion changed in one of your updates to give a 3.5 star, or to bring it down from “average” or better down to “below average”.

    It appears that you didn’t bother to read my sentence that says, “Judging by its ingredients alone, Bil-Jac Dog Food looks like a below-average dry product”.

    I was obviously referring to this recipe’s ingredients which include chicken by-products, corn meal as well as chicken by-product meal.

    Chicken by-products and chicken by-product meal typically sell for 30% less than the cost of their non by-product cousins.

    And dog foods that include cheaper non-chelated minerals like the ones used here in this recipe are typically associated with lower-quality pet foods.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    My database has been collected for over 5 years and is stored in a PHP MySQL database that exists in a subdomain located on this same server.

    All of the 800+ reviews on this website read that stored label information from that database and into the yellow dashboard boxes visible within every article.

    In other words, you are already viewing those averages derived from that database inside every article you read.

    The averages for dry food currently strand at the figures as I supplied to you in my previous comment.

    To put things in proper perspective, in order for any dog food to comply with the absolute minimum protein requirements for AAFCO, it must contain not less than 18% protein for adults and 22% protein for puppies.

    Now, how about you share with our readers the sources for your own claims that the “average dog food is much closer to 22% protein and 12-15% fat.”

    By the way, Mr. Franklin, the rude and condescending tone of your comments here is a violation of our posting rules.

    Your participation here is a privilege (not a right) granted by the owner of this website. And that privilege can also be revoked. Please consider yourself duly warned.

  • Daniel Franklin

    So tell me again how this 20% thing works… Because checking out all the 1,2,3,4, and 5-star food links, there’s not close to the same number of 1 and 2 star foods as there are 3, 4 and 5 star foods. Odd how your math didn’t help prove your right.

  • Pattyvaughn

    You may find it hard to believe, but the bell curve is not always applicable. That would be a huge assumption on your part.

  • Daniel Franklin

    Let’s take 5 equally nice burger joints, and let’s have you try a burger at each one. You are to judge them INDIVIDUALLY on a scale of 1 to 5. I bet you’re not going to have one in each of 1,2,3,4, and 5. If we are judging them on their own merits, they might line up all about the same, with the only differences being how they season it, how done it is, etc. Personal preferences per say.

    That might not be the best example. Let’s take a male perspective of America. The average woman should be a 5.5 on a scale of 1-10 in looks. It’s very hard to believe that 10% of all women in America are a 1. And I can tell you first hand that not even close to 1 out of 10 women is a 10. It’s called a bell curve, and that’s typically how things line up. You’re saying that out of 2500 dry dog food recipes, 500 of them HAVE to be 1 star foods, regardless of their merits, and 500 of the HAVE to be 5 star foods, regardless of merits.
    I disagree.

  • Daniel Franklin

    So where’s this database of 2500 dry recipes of which you speak? It’s easy to sit there and make claims when your database isn’t publicly viewable. Also, looking at your 5-star dog foods, I can succinctly tell you that your AVERAGE person has never heard of 90% of those brands. I can even tell you, and you know, that most of those brands aren’t sold at any major retailer. Giving them the same weight in determining an average of content is reasonable, but only if you phrase it the right way. Such as “the average dog food formula ….”, because giving it the same weight as any line of Purina food is disingenuous. If we poured out perfect proportions of all the dog foods sold in America by volume into a blender and blended it up, what would the content of that food be? THAT is truly the average dog food. And I guarantee that will be so much closer to Dog Chow than Bil-Jac.

    I also notice that you just didn’t bother with the second half of my post. Bil-Jac is “below average” despite scoring a 3.5 out of 5 stars. Obviously, either your opinion changed in one of your updates to give a 3.5 star, or to bring it down from “average” or better down to “below average”.

  • losul

    mkg21,

    My understanding is that the chicken by-product meal must be listed as just that and can contain, bone, offal, undeveloped eggs,etc., not just organs.

    Probably Bil-Jac took advantage of the option? of listing the unrendered chicken by-products (organs) as a combined sum, instead of listing them separately as chicken liver, chicken hearts, etc. Likely they think this is to their advantage, because to list them separately would move them much further down the ingredient list, maybe #5, #6, etc., and they would have to show corn meal as #2 ingredient.

    I think of it as the opposite of ingredient splitting, which is the practice of splitting unfavorable ingredients into individual components, so as to move the listings further down. Ingredient combining would move favorable ingredient(s) further up the list.

    Someone can correct me if I’m wrong on that.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    You said, “Bil Jac has above-average protein and fat… The average dog food is much closer to 22% protein and 12-15% fat.”

    Sorry, Daniel, but you’re misinformed.

    The average protein content for the more than 2500 dry recipes in our database currently stands at 29.1% and the average fat content is 15.7%.

    This average includes Purina, Iams and every other kibble in our extensive database.

    Also, due to ingredient splitting, a dog food with a meat item as its first ingredient is not necessarily indicative of a high meat content.

    Based on recorded statistics, I stand by my assessment that Bil-Jac contains “Near-average protein. Near-average fat. And near-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.”

  • Pattyvaughn

    This has to do with math, so read carefully. 20% of all reviewed dog foods will fit in the 1 star category. 20% of all reviewed dog foods will fit in the 2 star category. 20% of all reviewed dog foods will fit in the 3 star category. 20% of all reviewed dog foods will fit in the 4 star category. And 20% of all reviewed dog foods will fit in the 5 star category.

    They are rated on their government regulated ingredient list and their government regulated Guaranteed Analysis. Each rating level has a range of protein levels that fit within that level. The rating is also affected by the number of controversial ingredients in a food, where the protein is coming from, the protein to fat ratio, etc.

    The review is fair because Dr Mike compares apple to apples and oranges to oranges. He reviews all foods by the same formula. What is important to him may not be what is important to you, but it’s his blog and his opinion.

    One thing to keep in mind, there are over 800 reviews here and he is constantly adding more, so he doesn’t update them all on a daily basis. Over time he changes the way he words things and it may take a year and a half for the changes to make it to every review.

  • Daniel Franklin

    No, it’s not an honest review of the food. It’s an honest analysis of the ingredients. Bil Jac has above average protein and fat contents. The average dog food is much closer to 22% protein and 12-15% fat.

    The fact that the first ingredient listed is Chicken, shows that it is NOT below average, at the LEAST it’s average, and that’s if you’re defining average based on high end dog food. The fact of the matter that AVERAGE dog food is made by Purina and most people would consider Purina ONE and Pro Plan above average.

    This author reviewed Eukanuba as “average” and gave it 3.5 stars, but rated Bil-Jac as “below average” with the same 3.5 star rating. The problem is that you’re now using Eukanuba as the basis of “Average” and that is FAR from the truth. Eukanuba is an above average dog food, and EVERYONE knows it. Just because someone’s on their high horse feeding their dog Blue Buffalo, Canidae, Solid Gold, or whatever ULTRA premium dog food for years on end, shouldn’t mean that it water down the reality of the what the average dog food actually is.

    Also, Beneful and Alpo (Purina’s 2 cheapest brands) are given 1 star and listed as “below average”. It’s disingenuous to list a far superior food the exact same as the cheapest thing on the market.

  • mkg21

    Bil-jac has to list the organ meats as by-products which is totally wrong since organ meats (heart, liver, etc) are good for dogs.

  • Ross C.

    The Chairperson for the Health Committee of the national Great Dane club uses Bil-Jac and it is on her breeder website. She is internationally known and respected as an expert in Great Dane health and genetics. I think that most people that make negative comments about this food and others that are similar do so because they believe that dogs are people in little fur coats and not animals. My former babysitter is in graduate school and is a manager at a local Petsmart and Bil-Jac has the highest repeat purchasing and lowest refund rate in the whole store.

  • petbizlady

    Choose a food with NO by-products. We are the owners and its up to us to give our dogs the best. Cancer is at an all time high. Beneful is one of the worst. My boyfriend worked at Purina while going to law school and told me how the food is actually made. Mine are on NATURAL BALANCE. Salmon, whitefish, with fruits and veggies. I have one client that has her dog on Bil-jac, it grosses me out to put it in the bowl. He isn’t eating it anyway. It looks like cardboard that was cut into pieces. Please do your homework. There are many other healthier options. My yorkie lived to be 20 with NO health issues because I gave her the best quality of life possible.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Mixing in canned food or raw/people food is actually a GOOD thing. If your dog is eating a better food with canned or “people” food mixed in, this is actually far preferable to feeding Bil Jac on its own. I would feed a combo of a better food with canned or some other topper in a HEARTBEAT over Bil Jac on its own!!!!

  • Cindy Lou Ortiz

    I have the same issue with my bella….the only dry food she will eat with nothing mixed in it! I’ll keep buying it too!

  • Endlessflight1

    I have a 8 month old Rott and I have feed him 5/4 star foods…The only one he will eat with nothing mixed in is Bil-Jac. He has to eat…As long as he eats it….I’ll keep buying it.

  • Pattyvaughn

    4 lbs of chicken is 80% water so when it is dried for kibble, it is less than 1 lb of chicken meal.

  • Shamrockmommy

    If the food is vegetable based, why do they have statements on the bag telling otherwise? Such as for the 6 lb bag it says “4 lbs chicken used to make this 6 lb bag” ?

  • Pingback: Bil Jac - Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums

  • Pattyvaughn

    Me too. I’m just such a reader that I can’t even imagine someone not reading what is in front of them. But then, I spend hours and hours every day reading.

  • Betsy Greer

    It always amazes me when people post here and think this is the manufacturer’s website.

  • Alpha Biotch

    Hi Patty. I just wanted to say hi.

    Hi. :-)

  • Pattyvaughn

    Hi Irene
    This isn’t Bil-Jac, it’s the Dog Food Advisor.

  • Irene

    What have you done to your dog food?? My dog always loved it but now just turns up her nose. It feels real gritty, too.

  • CreatureTeacherOC

    I have been using Bil-Jac for years. All of my dogs love it, look great, and on a personal note, have outlived their breed specific life expectancies. This is not scientific, just my experience. I would recommend Bil-Jac to friends for their dogs.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi woof wolf –

    Bil Jac is definitely a step up from Beneful – you may also want to check out these lists of best wet and dry puppy foods Dr. Mike has compiled: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/best-puppy-foods/

  • Pattyvaughn

    Dr Mike’s review above is an honest review. It is based on the ingredients and the guaranteed analysis that the company provides the public. Ingredients are what make up dog food, so that is how dog food should be judged. It can’t be better than what went into it.

  • woof wolf

    Can I get a honest review of this dog food….. I just started my 3mo old small breed puppy on this food. She seems to like it more then purina’s beniful. I have yet to settle on a food for her so I’m looking to other pet parents for ideas.

  • InkedMarie

    I don’t think you realize that ratings are done using the ingredients. There are people feeding Alpo and Old Roy & think their dogs look great. Dogs may look great on inferior food but that does not make it a good food. It’s all about the ingredients.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    LindsayGirl,

    You accused me of saying different things about the same ingredients for different brands. And you defend your false and misleading statements by claiming they’re just innocent “observations”.

    However, your “observations” are not only untrue — they’re simply impossible. That’s because my assistant and I use a library of computerized ingredient descriptions so that every review is written with the exact same, word-for-word text.

    Yet when I politely asked you to provide proof of your claims (so I could correct any honest mistakes), you refused to provide them.

    What’s more, you also tried to intentionally cast doubt about the integrity of my hard work by openly wondering who was paying me to write these reviews — when. in fact, I assure every reader in each review I write that I never accept incentives from any third parties to create my ratings.

    You also said: “It seems you are not allowed to disagree on this site…”

    Well, the fact your disagreements with my reviews are still here completely unedited are living proof that your latest accusation is just another attempt to discredit me as well as this important website.

    All things considered, here’s my observation of you, dear “LindsayGirl”…

    You are not here to provide help to others or to add to the overall knowledge of commercial dog food — but to make trouble. And for that reason, you are no longer welcome to post your “observations” in this community.

  • LawofRaw

    ” I don’t beleive that there is one perfect dogfood out there that will
    work for all dogs the same. Dogs as unique in their chemical makeup as
    we are.”

    There’s that ‘it’s what works for your dog’…..’all dogs are different’…..arguments. There is one “dog food” out there that works for all ailment free dogs. Or more accurately described as a canine or canid diet, that if species appropriate, will, can and does work for ALL HEALTHY DOGS!

    Dogs are NOT unique in their “chemical makeup”, just like we are NOT! All our own DNA are unique but all our anatomical physiology (My apologies to any actual relevant scientists that may stumble on this post and read my probably not quite an accurate a scientific combination of adjective terms) is the same! All of our biological and cellular processes are the same! And so it all stands to reason that most healthy foods e.g. the dogs species appropriate prey model and/or BARF style diets positively affect most if not all healthy dogs the same. Just like the healthy and rich array of the human omnivorous mixture of meat, vegetables and fruits etc would have the same affect on most if not all healthy and food allergy-free humans.

  • Storm’s Mom

    First “LindsayGirl”, now “Lindsay girl”… hmmm….my username never changes…

  • Lindsay girl

    Mike, I did not make any accusations only my observations I’m sorry if you are offended.And I didn’t start this pointless rude squabble. I only came to this site to see what other options and thoughts were out there Because of my own years of experience with the product were good I felt the ratings were not accurate or fair and that is an opinion we are all entitled to express. It seems you are not allowed to disagree on this site without being bombarded with nasty and childish comments. It makes the credibility of all to be called into question when it causes such negativity . Some of the comments directed to me should have been deleted per your own policy. I really wish you would go back and reread all my comments. I had no mal intent towards you or anyone else and I do apologize if you took it that way. Let’s just leave it be.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    LindsayGirl,

    In your comment criticizing my ratings and my integrity you said it “makes me wonder who is paying the bill here”.

    Are you kidding me? Have you taken the time to read my closing remarks in every one of the 800+ reviews I’ve written? Since you obviously haven’t, I’ll repeat them for you here:

    “In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.”

    Your baseless criticisms and false accusations are unfair and certainly not appreciated.

    I’d like to remind you that you are a guest here. And as such, you’re asked to obey the rules or lose your right to post your comments.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    To Lindsay Girl & Others Involved in This Pointless Squabble,

    Please remember that The Dog Food Advisor community encourages “courteous critiques, polite debate and calm disagreement”.

    Unfortunately, recent remarks here compel me to remind each of you to please adhere to Our Commenting Policy which states:

    “… we delete comments that exceed the boundaries of courteous behavior. This includes remarks that are rude, profane, mean-spirited, disrespectful, lack good manners or otherwise unrelated to the topic at hand.”

    Please consider yourself duly warned.

  • Pattyvaughn

    She has an iPhone 5 to take a picture with.

  • Lindsay girl

    I apologize for misspelled words using iPhone 5 is a pain as it tends to insert and override . However, I make no apologies for my writing style. Suggest you go back and read your own silly childish profanity.laced commentary. That’s really not necessary to get your point across, in fact it makes you less than credible

  • Lindsay girl

    Sorry to disappoint you but I am not Tiinkys mom

  • beaglemom

    Heck let’s see the chart… must be a work of art with over 800 dog foods on it.

  • beaglemom

    lmao Labs! I think you nailed it.

  • Pattyvaughn

    The latest recall and Primal Raw Frozen Formulas. Dr Mike caught him/her posting as both from the same IP. And agreeing with him/herself. You could tell within 3 sentences who it was, kind of pitiful.

  • Pattyvaughn

    You claimed that Dr Mike is doing biased reviews. How is that honest observation, if you can’t give one example. Sorry, no, there is nothing mature about you coming here and making accusations that you can’t back up. There is no courtesy coming from you.

  • Lindsay girl

    No ball no court simply honest observations I don’t feel the need to prove anything especially to some who is as rude disrespectful immature as you are. your previous comments to others in the past tells me that you do not have the common sense to know how to conduct yourself in this type if forum If you are going to use parts of my conversation to throw back please have the common courtesy to use them in full context . I didn’t disrespect any brand or anyone’s opinion I raised and showed dobermans many years ago on a completely different brand very successfully . I switched to bill jack when I switched breeds . Again it is what works for you and your pet and I have 17 years of proof that Bilbac was the right choice for me and my dogs. I have tried some of the other high stars on this site and they were not what they claimed and did not work for us. And that is what the purpose of the forum is for. Not a place for immature persons to get personal gratification fior hurling this site would be better without your kind of commentary

  • LabsRawesome

    Okay Tinky’s Mom.

  • LabsRawesome

    Oh. That explains it. I wasn’t on last week, on vacation. :) Which thread?

  • Pattyvaughn

    They were from 3 days ago.

  • LabsRawesome

    Mike P and Michela Goesken? I totally missed those two identities for our mixed up “friend” lmao.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Don’t forget to add Mike P and Michela Goesken to your list. It’s getting pretty long, especially if Laura et al is really a part of her persona.

  • LabsRawesome

    Doesn’t make sense does it? But this does- it’s that creepy Man/Woman that has a vendetta against Mike for throwing he/she/it? off the site. Lol.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I think they come here thinking they are feeding a 5 star food and get mad that Dr Mike ‘s rating doesn’t match up with their overinflated opinion of their food.

  • Storm’s Mom

    That thought crossed my mind…

  • Pattyvaughn

    No, it isn’t. She isn’t capable of changing her MO.

  • LabsRawesome

    It’s probably just Cindy/Tinky’s Mom/ Peter/David, starting Sh!t again. LMAO.

  • Shawna

    I’m not saying that LindsayGirl is, but I’ve often thought that some of the posters that come here in favor of BilJac are simply BilJac shills..

    Again, not saying that LindsayGirl is but why let the opinion of one person on one website derail you from your course. Lindsay admittedly feels that the food is “high cost”.. If she was a legitimate poster/shopper evaluating foods, I just can’t see why she would let Mike’s viewpoint prevent her from looking at any other food —- on this site, another site or even at her local store. Doesn’t make sense to me???

  • Pattyvaughn

    You claim to be mature, but in essence you just took your ball and went home. If you made the chart, then how will it hurt you to share 2 products that you found that Dr Mike rated one high and one low for the exact same thing. I don’t believe that you can provide even one example and that is why you are behaving the way you are. Put up or shut up.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Do you have one single example of Dr Mike rating one product high and another low for the exact same thing, because I highly doubt that is the case. I have read the reviews for every product that is 3 stars or higher and many of the reviews that are lower and I have found that he generally uses the exact same terms for the same ingredients in different products. I’m sorry, but I don’t think your argument has a leg to stand on.

  • Shawna

    LindsayGirl,

    You simply have to look at ingredients when evaluating foods. Here’s just one small example.

    Like some other brands BilJac chooses to use flaxseed as it’s omega 3 source. Problem is that science has demonstrated that the omega 3 ALA in flaxseed is not converted to EPA and DHA efficiently in adult dogs. DHA is the omega fatty acid that is most important for heart, brain, eye and nerve health. A dog with too little omega 3 DHA isn’t going to be as smart as an example.

    Corn and chicken is high in omega 6 LA. LA is very important for skin and coat health but if it is fed in excess (and not offset by appropriate omega 3 sources) it can turn to omega 6 AA which is very inflammatory. Inflammation is not going to be something we can readily see on the outside.

    Additionally corn, for some pets, has a protein called a lectin that can cause symptoms such as leaky gut, colitis, IBD, kidney disease, nerve damage, brain damage, behavioral problems and on and on. Oatmeal is another source of problematic lectins.

    “Department of biochemistry
    Colorado State University
    Fort Collins, Colorado

    Handbook of Natural Toxins Vol 7

    Food Poisoning”

    Under the section titled “Cereal Lectins”
    “In cereal grains such as oats, barley, rice, rye, sorghum, and wheat, lectins arepresent mainly in the germ (Stinissen et aL, 1983; Peumans, 1985; Liener, 1989″ Wheat germ agglutinin survives the digestive process ofthe human body and can reach the colon in biologically intact form (Brady et aL, 1978). Lectin activity is also present in endosperm and can be traced to albumin, lobulin,
    zein, and glutelin fractions. Some of the endosperm lectins are heat stable
    (Newburg and Concon, 1985).”
    “Zein” is the lectin in corn. Corn (and oats) is “toxic” to some individuals.. Chicken is also a source of lectin proteins.
    My guess is that corn, wheat and soy have been demonstrated to be the most problematic based on industries move to exclude these “foods”. Just a guess though.
    Sad thing is, that’s not the only problem issue with cereal grains. But that will have to be saved for another post…

  • LindsayGirl

    As far as cost goes, I think we are all being ripped off by the manufactuers regardless of your preferred brand. Just watch your results and you will know if you have a good product for you pets.

  • LindsayGirl

    Mike, I am not making a claim, merely an observation of what I saw on this websites comparisons. I do charts and graphs for a living and it didn’t take much for me to come to the conclusion I previously stated. Anyone can do the same. I have nothing to prove or disprove for you or anyone else.I made my comments based on my experiences. I thought this was a mature forum not one for trading insults or disaparing remarks or demands. If my experiences have offended you or anyone else, I certainly did not intend it that way. Truth speaks volumes and the wounded often cry the loudest. Best Wishes for all your pets Feed what you belive best and good health for all.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    LindsayGirl,

    I have arted more than 800+ dog food product lines on this website. And I do my very best to be unbiased fdor or against any brand.

    So, I’m sorry you feel “some products he rates high for various reason he also condems another product for the same thing”.

    Please provide proof of such your claim.

  • LindsayGirl

    I do not see any scientific proof on this site only one persons opinion so unless you have that data you should be careful of what you put out there. My obeservation of the date that Dr, Mike put out is that for some products he rates high for various reason he also condems another product for the same thing, which if you put all of his rating points on a graph and line up the brands, the indiviual ratings don’t ring true. In otherwords if its good in one product it must be good in all the rest. I don’t beleive that there is one perfect dogfood out there that will work for all dogs the same. Dogs as unique in their chemical makeup as we are. You don’t have to look very far to find someone who has a negative opinion about every one of the brands listed or has had bad experiences with them. As I said before, I have been using biljac for over 17 years now and it has been a postitive one overall. Products change over the years and I wanted to see what else was out there and if there were any benefits to switching. High cost is a common denominator with all of these foods. In reading some of the other comments here I see that a lot of others like the Biljac for the same reasons: shiny coats, healthy gums, palatable, digestion, actual percentage of the dog food that the dog actually uses in their systems, smaller more uniformed waste excrement, and its not greasy. Yes there are a few things that I do not like or wish they didn’t use, but that is true for all of theses brands. years. I don’t think this site should be used for personal vendettas and to hurl insults, just your experiences with whatever product you are using. Im not a scientist or nutrishionist or have a degree, I just know what my experience has been and for me, the proof is in the health of my dogs which has been excellent over the years.

  • Cyndi

    That’s true! I should have left out the word “cheap”.

  • Pattyvaughn

    My understanding is that they charge like a higher rated food, so that would make them expensive garbage. And if you believe everything you hear or read, They can even convince you that there is a good reason for them to put BHA in their food. The rest of the ingredients don’t make them any worse than any other 2 1/2 star food, but they certainly don’t make them better either. Though most of the other 2 to 3 start foods aren’t working very hard at telling you why their cheap ingredients make them better than better foods.

  • Cyndi

    Bil Jac IS pretty much, cheap garbage! That’s why it’s only rated 2 1/2 stars. Dr. Mike rates all the dog food here on their ingredients. Anyone can see that!

  • LindsayGirl

    My My aren’t you the snappy one. I am wiulling to bet you haven’t reviewed and looked at the different ways that this editor has culled out of what he likes and dislikes about all of the foods. Do a graph on the different points and you will see what I am seeing. but then maybe you won’t since you seem to think dogs should be feed cheap garbage- no matter what it does to their over all health. I raised and showed Dobermans for many years , although I was not wealthy I would not have stooped to feeding cheap food. Instead of trying to insult why your time would be better served to a little more closely at what is being put out their as fact when it is more opinion than fact.

  • Dobermans_Rock

    If the high cost is what your complaining about then why don’t you get your dogs something more healthier than bil jac. The editor isn’t biased as you can see they have done their research..Dogs thrive on cheap food…just saying

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Bil Jac has a new grain-free formula:

    http://www.bil-jac.com/dog-food-grain-free.php

    It’s a pretty pea heavy, but a big improvement over their old formulas.

  • diana

    You’re right dee, MOst of the other dog food I bought at first as a new pet owner was purina pro plan and it’s greasy, bil jac isn’t.

  • diana

    I just bought it, I fed my dog a few bits of it. Will tell you in a couple of days how it’s going depending on stools etc. I’m also giving him their stews but for now will just feed him dry for a few days.

  • diana

    gary is not saying this is the only dog food that’s good for your pet, what’s wrong with you people? Bunch of loonies here I see. We should all come and share our experiences here, not to say what is best or not best, it depends on your dog experiences.

  • diana

    You don’t have to apologize for anything. You simply said this food works best for your dog so nothing wrong about that. I come in here looking for reviews and results of people’s dogs so then I can make my decision on what to feed by pet, of course I check the ingredients first then the reviews.

    I been using bil jac for awhile now myself and my dog haven’t had any issues with it.

  • diana

    I’m on your side Tiger, Some of the people here need to learn respect and accept the fact that different people have different opinions. With that being said what may work for your dog may not work for someone else dog.

  • diana

    My 7lb malteste/westie loves biljac especially their wet food stews. I just came back from Petsmart in Covina and met one of their reps, He was nice enough to give me a few coupons so I purchased the trial size of adult grain free which is free of corn, soy, wheat, and gluten. It’s also free of sprayed on rendered fat. I normally get the regular blue bag which he likes but wanted to make sure he likes this new grain free one.

    I got a 1lb trial size bag and 13 oz of chicken was used, Normally they use 5lbs of chicken to make their regular big bag so that’s a plus, that’s what makes the food taste so good.

    He eats the stews and doesn’t get diarrhea or anything so I’m happy with that and happy that I got two coupons of a buy one get one free.

    I also got a coupon for a free small bag of treats, I got the chicken and liver he loves it. I fed him in the car a few of those plus one of the stews, He licked the little tub clean.

    I was able to get my lil one a lot of food.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Are you saying you have been feeding it for 4 years and she hasn’t lost the weight and you didn’t try something else? If that is the case, I wouldn’t expect the food to be the cause of the diabetes, since obesity predisposes one towards diabetes. I hate this food, but I can’t blame it for everything.

  • Gracie’s Dad

    Bil Jac reduced fat seemed a good option for my overweight lab, but now she has canine diabetes. Not sure it was the best option. She is about to be 5 and has been eating it for 4 years. Probably have spent well over $1500 on Bil Jac trying to get the girl from 110lbs to 68lbs and running her as well. Now I have a bin of Bil Jac($50) and a bag of Science Diet W/D($65). Plus I now have to give my girl 2 injections a day for the rest of her life. I kinda feel a little cheated since a rep from Bil Jac sold me on it in a Petsmart. Guess I should have done my homework.

  • Melissaandcrew

    Interesting..my dogs have perfect bloodwork etc and yet this food has never passed their lips…

  • Shawna

    I have eight dogs – this food would create MORE work for my vets if a couple of my dogs ate this food.. I value human lives, pet lives as well as my money so I’ll stick with what I feed.. :)

  • Gary Martin

    Let me clarify, if anyone has any reservations about feeding Bil-Jac, they should not feed it. I apologize if I implied everyone should feed Bil-Jac as that is not the case at all. Based on my results, I have never found a better canine food. You may feed it and your dogs may get cancer, irritable bowel syndrome, lose their eyesight, gain weight, lose weight, get lazy, get hyer, hair may fall out in chunks, their eyes may mat up, etc. Bil-Jac is NOT for everyone. I hope I have cleared that up.

    Besides, a lot of good men and women chose to be veterinarians as a career and if everyone fed Bil-Jac a lot of vets would have to close down and this would hurt their families and their employees families as well. Since I value human lives more than canines I do not want everyone feeding Bil-Jac.

  • Storm’s Mom

    It shouldn’t be about what your dog “tolerates best” though, you know? …treat whatever the underlying problem is with your dog, and it will be able to tolerate, even thrive!!!, on a whole lot of other foods. You’re catering to an unhealthy dog..healthy dogs are able to tolerate just about anything they put in their mouths. That’s how they were created, it’s human intervention that has made a dog “intolerant” of everything other than 1 food! The fact that yours can’t tolerate variety indicates an underlying issue that you’re allowing to be masked by only feeding a food it “tolerates” now.

  • Storm’s Mom

    The issue I have with your statement is when you say “I came here to tell people how great Bil-Jac is for your puppies and dogs…”. In other words you came here to market the food. You cannot know what is great for other people’s dogs. It’s fine for you to come on here and say how great you think the food is for YOUR dogs, the results you’ve seen, etc but when you start saying that it’s great for other people’s dogs, THAT’S marketing….and as soon as you do that, you open yourself up to be contradicted by other people who feel compelled to point out that they feel there are better things to feed a dog, in general.

  • Gary Martin

    Some people on this sight want to tell me my results are not my results. They want to put down Bil-Jac any way they can. It has worked wonders for me and my 4 dogs. I don’t go to other dog food brands on this website and rip those people and tell them they are ignorant or imply the are stupid for feeding their high priced exotic food that was marketing for human “consumption.” I’m on your side, Tigger2. I didn’t post here for advice or for someone to suggest anything better. I came here to tell people how great Bil-Jac is for your puppies and dog based on my personal experiences. Tigger2, watch how much I get lectured over this post. The way some people respond to the positive positive posts could make some scared to post, huh?

    Is it possible to be ignorant that you are ignorant?

    All you know is all you know….

  • Pattyvaughn

    I think you will find that no one will say anything against someone who tries and tries to find what works for their dog and has to settle for something less than stellar because it works. When you will find negativity is when someone makes a blanket statement that this is a great food and anybody who doesn’t agree doesn’t know what they are talking about. Then people are going to point out why this food is not so great and maybe suggest foods that are similar but better or in the same price range but better, or whatever.
    Just like with people, a healthy diet promotes long term health, but sometimes short term health is way more important, especially when it comes to quality of life issues.

  • Tigger2

    All I can say is that I have a Jack Russell and I have had him sense 10 weeks old. I have tried taste of the wild, nurtro Ultra, chicken soup, Blue, I can go on and on he was very very Highly allergic to every single one of these with Ultra living scabs and sores all over his body. So I did more research cut and paste all the ingredients and did comparable on all these dog food and many others. Even from plan worse ones. Well I dug into bil jac and sensitive stomach is what I am feeding him have been for over a year. It’s what he tolerates best. Only premium that don’t have any kind of tomato in it which is filler and worse to have in dog food. Anyways, all dog food has there problems in one way or the other.

    So please be kind and don’t rip someone cause they feed something you don’t agree with. We each have our own opinion, just respect each others opinion.

  • Eileen

    anyone tried the new Bil Jac grain free dry dog food?

  • Guest

    I have the 600th comment! Do I get a prize or something?

  • Guest

    Visiting this site for actual credible information I started noticing a trend of a few screen names that are apparently owned by folks that are passionate about their distaste for Bil-Jac. Since I had nothing better to do tonight I thought I would introduce you to the real “trolls” of DFA:

    BryanV21
    InkedMarie
    Pattyvaughn
    Hound Dog Mom
    DogFoodNinja
    LabsRawesome
    Shawna

  • Alexandra

    Hi Alex,

    Because the way it is listed, it is two separate ingredients. The actual by product, listed first is unprocessed. The by product meal has been rendered or processed into a powder.

    After processing, the corn meal and the by product meals are the main ingredients in this food and not very good ones at that.

  • Alex

    why do you list chicken by products twice?

  • InkedMarie

    I’m just pointing out that there are other dog food companies that you can get that kind of service from: Brothers Complete, Annamaet, The Honest Kitchen and Dr. Tim’s comes to mind.

  • Shawna

    Corn is not a natural diet for cows. Why on earth do we think that corn would be okay for dogs. Cows fed corn have to be “taught” how to eat it and have to be put on antibiotics and feed supplements in order to prevent illness.. Feeding dogs corn makes absolutely no sense. I don’t buy the whole “omnivore” discussion either as manufacturers use corn in cat food too.

    I’m a raw feeder and as such I use “by-products” in every meal. As a raw feeder it is advised not to use more than about 10% by-products as they are heavy in certain fat soluble vitamins and can create an excess – some believe at least. I question this (from nautural forms of vitamins at least) but follow the rules to be safe :)..

    Besides the use of corn, what bothers me most about Bil Jac however is their raw food. If they put so little thought into the design of their raw food, it’s pathetic, I have no doubt that they are cutting corners on their kibbles as well……

  • LabsRawesome

    Libby P. Your Vet is very ignorant. Corn has a high likelihood of being contaminated. By Dr. Karen Becker DVM

    In an article
    last November, I reported on the very real danger of future widespread
    aflatoxin contamination of commercial pet food, primarily dry dog food.
    Thanks to the very hot, dry summer of 2012, experts predicted U.S.
    corn crops would be heavily infested with two types of mold — Aspergillus flavus and Aspergillus parasiticus.

    These molds produce metabolites called aflatoxins.
    Aflatoxins
    cause acute lethal illness and cancer in animals and
    humans, and are among the most carcinogenic substances on earth.
    Aflatoxins poison the liver, and their carcinogenic properties can lead
    to tumor formation. How to Avoid Aflatoxin-Contaminated Pet Food

    Aflatoxin-related illness is seen much more often in dogs than cats because more commercial dog foods than cat foods contain corn products.

    To be very safe, I recommend you transition your pet away from
    all dry food. Replace it with a high quality canned food, a commercially
    prepared raw diet, dehydrated raw, a balanced home cooked diet, or a
    combination.

    If you want to continue to offer dry food to your dog, I
    recommend you study the ingredients carefully and avoid products
    containing corn in any form, including corn gluten meal, whole grain
    corn, corn flour, etc. Corn is not only highly susceptible to aflatoxin
    contamination, it is also allergenic and difficult for pets to digest.

  • LibbyP

    I have fed my dogs Bil-Jac exclusively for 5 years and have been extremely happy with it. My dogs’ coats are soft and shiny, both are full of energy, and their stools have always been small and formed. I recently had a conversation with my Vet about dog food (tightening our budget) and his opinion, backed by a masters degree in animal nutrition, is that chicken and corn are the best make-up for dog food unless the dog has a sensitivity to either product. He also went on to say that chicken by-products (read organ meat) are a good protein source for dog food. Just because I don’t want to eat chicken kidneys doesn’t mean it isn’t a perfectly healthy source of protein for my dogs. He was not speaking about any brand in particular but not to get hung up on the corn or chicken by-product controversy.

  • dee

    BilJac makes their food in small batches in MD and are not processed in large quantities like the “top brands” are. Blue Buffalo, Nutro, ProPlan are all made in large factories by other companies. BilJac remains committed to answering any questions about their food. just email or call them. You cannot get that from anyone else. Ever hold dog food and it felt greasy? Its because of the rendered fat which companies spray on after the cooking process. BilJac doesnt do this.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I understand. Just don’t stay gone too long. You will be missed.

  • InkedMarie

    take a break if you need one then come back!

  • InkedMarie

    At least yours to me got to my box in 9hrs!

  • Shawna

    I’ve had to “take breaks” before too.. Do what you need to do but don’t stay away too long. Your input is valuable and needed!! Even if you disagree with me—–heehehehehehhee :) Yeah, I know!! Poor excuse for humor :)..

  • LabsRawesome

    You’re Welcome.

  • losul

    Patty, I don’t really want to talk about it anymore at all. I just REALLY want to take a long break

  • losul

    appreciate labs, I wasn’t really following the conversation closely because there aren’t any TSC’s near enough to me to make feasible. But I do intend to head to Costco soon and get the cuts n gravy. Thanks for the tips.

  • LabsRawesome

    Patty, Lol. Too true. Those Trolls love to be fed….

  • Pattyvaughn

    Don’t let people with personal problems become your problem. And in that same vein, just by talking about it, we are probably feeding the trolls.

  • LabsRawesome

    Hey , I don’t know if you saw the earlier conversation some of us were having. But Diamond responded to my email and confirmed that they Do Not manufacture the new Grain-free 4health. Sold at TSC. So there is another decent quality, easily available, budget friendly food to use/recommend. It’s made by Ainsworth. :)

  • losul

    Labs, they already stopped for now,

    I tried not to let it get to me, but I sat on this for over 8 days taking that crap and, trying to avoid any confrontation

    If it was a personal gripe about me going off topic, fine, but I wasn’t the one who started those off topics, and there were plenty of others posting about the same/other off topics and with no consequences.

    Absolutely certain people don’t like me, that doesn’t really bother me,but I think they have a cowardly and devious way of showing it.

    Anyway, I need a long break from this, I said what I needed, hopefully it’s enough.

  • LabsRawesome

    losul, I wouldn’t let the down votes bother you. You know what they say about opinions…. Some people get extremely offended when we go off topic. Maybe they are down voting the posts simply because they have nothing to do with dog food? Occasionally these people write long posts, complaining that they can’t find any info pertaining to the dog food reviewed on the page. Some are very rude about it. If they would just ask their question about the food, I’m sure they would get some opinions/feedback on that particular food. Or maybe someone just doesn’t like certain people, so they just down vote any post they make. Maybe they will get bored, and go away….

  • Hound Dog Mom

    If the person who was doing it to me is who I think it was, it’s probably the same person doing it to you. I wouldn’t get too worried about it – they’ll get bored of it eventually.

  • losul

    I hope that he did see them and can see them, but from my point of view, I would much prefer to publicly see where the abuse of the system was coming from.

  • losul

    Shawna yes, I noticed it right away as it was happening. If these posts were not down voted quickly, then most were within hours of posting. I’d just been biting my tongue and ignoring it all for quite some time. I know some others have SURELY noticed it all along, besides I. They didn’t just all of a sudden go back a week and start down voting them all. BTW, the one “up” vote on that particular “Thanks Losul” reply was mine. Surely when you eventually noticed it, you also noticed that single up vote also, right? I wouldn’t ordinarily or necessarily do that just for saying thanks to me, but because it was down voted for whatever stupid reason(s), so I up voted it, as I did some others and upvoted some other people’s also, including HDM’s. I don’t care that HDM and I had a recent disagreement, and posted a very few posts that I REALLY didn’t like (2 or 3) out of the several in that day or two that I didn’t neccessarily like, I’m not going to make it any secret, I down voted those very few that I REALLY didn’t like.. She provides some very good posts often, and she gets my up vote on those. Same with you, Patty, or anyone else. I expect anyone that ACTUALLY really dislikes something I post, and not just me, to similarly vote me down, but not to do so solely for the purpose of creating trouble. Look at so many of Aimees posts too- 2 down votes just for saying something like thanks losul, or for practically anything- it’s ridiculous.

    It all seems to have begun a week ago Wednesday, when I was furthering my talk about mushrooms and cancer therapy, and my posts were quickly down voted. Remember where I replied about aptosis and my mushroom reference? I have no sensible idea why this offended anyone. All of my posts since that were down voted. Some of the people replying to me in that thread and others were susequently down voted, and had been ever since,.yourself included.

    So, for those that are concerned about the votes or status, i can certainly understand why only few, would want to associate/respond with me.. In that regard, I guess the pleased, but pitiful downgrader(s) won. Very sad and disturbing.

    I’ve tried VERY hard to supply helpful,informative posts, don’t know what else I could have done.

  • Marie

    LOL wow.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I up vote many of yours as well. :)

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I was wondering the same thing – whether or not Dr. Mike can see who votes..

  • Mary Lou

    Why don’t you just get rid of that Yahoo?!!! :))))
    I love showing support for posters, and honestly, would like them to know I support them!!

  • Shawna

    Hey girlfriend :)

    Got your email and have been trying to reply but Yahoo is misbehaving badly. I’ll try again when I get home.

    I don’t mind the down button but I wouldn’t be upset if it went away either. I do REALLY like being able to show support but using the up button though — anonymously or not. :)

  • Shawna

    I don’t down vote very often but when I do, I down vote comments not people.

    For the record HDM, I am a supporter and up vote many of your comments. I like showing my support by up voting.

  • Mary Lou

    Not to stir the pot ~ but I wonder if Dr. Mike sees who votes down. I know you have to sign in because I have wanted to down vote a few, and don’t bother. I would think if it was an ongoing thing that was suspect, perhaps a private email from Dr. Mike could be written saying knock it off. :))

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Yeah I don’t like how voting is anonymous on the new version – both voting up and down. I would prefer if when I voted up a post the person who made the post is able to see that it’s me that is supporting them and I also like to see who is supporting my posts. Same goes for the voting down – I have a feeling that a lot of these “mystery” people who vote down certain individuals’ posts wouldn’t do it if it was public. I only vote down posts that I’m also comfortable following up with a public post explaining why I disliked the post.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    I remember that, too! I found it so offensive that I think I mentioned it. I recall that was something I liked about the old format…, you could actually see who liked a post, but now some people choose to hide behind the ability to anonymously vote down a post. A little civility goes a long way, doesn’t it. : (

  • Shawna

    Huh… Was just looking back at an old post of mine and I see what you mean now.. I got two down votes for thanking you. Seriously, my post simply said “Thanks Losul” and two down votes.
    And I had noticed that HDM was getting down votes that didn’t seem appropriate too..

  • Pattyvaughn

    I have 30some chickens and they like to play hide and seek with their eggs, so I’m always hunting and washing, hunting and washing.

  • JellyCat

    I always buy free range organic eggs, almost always from grocery store so they are even washed :-)

  • JellyCat

    Mmmm free range organic eggs :-)

  • Pattyvaughn

    The only problem with free range eggs is trying to scramble the yolks, they are so thick they don’t want to mix at all. Oh, the other problem is I don’t like washing all my eggs, but I do love eating them and feeding them to my dogs.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I remember that. Someone else mentioned it, I think it was InkedMarie, so I went looking back and I just started laughing. You could tell that they had gone down through certain threads all the way back to the beginning, but hadn’t gotten to others. It was just so ridiculously silly to spend that much time on that.

  • losul

    Yeah I don’t understand that way of behavior, but oh well, it’s their time, not mine..I can think of lots better ways for self amusement, but to each their own………I guess, hehe

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hey losul, I was in the same boat awhile ago (first time around with the new version of disqus). I had a pretty good idea of who was doing it, there really was only one person around that was that immature. Rather than being offended I found it funny. The person that did it to me did it daily for weeks and actually went as far as to go back through months of my old posts and dislike comments that were made even before there was a dislike function. I was just thinking man…I wish I had that much time on my hands. lol.

  • Pattyvaughn

    It’s a worthy goal to try to not offend anyone, however don’t bother worrying about whether or not you are going to offend the people who are looking to be offended. They would be deeply disappointed if you didn’t give them something.

  • losul

    Thanks, I try to inject humor alot, with the hopes it never offends anyone. Good medicine.

  • Pattyvaughn

    That has happened here before. Usually the children get tired of their little games after a while and go find something else to play at. Loved your post, so I had to vote it up. The Urban Dictionary definitely appeals to my sense of humor.

  • losul

    Nope, not from me. “Us” midwesterners have jokes about “cityslickers” also.

    Funny how when I was a kid, I wanted the drumsticks and thigh. We had to fight over the piece with the wishbone, not because of the taste, just because we could try to get the most favorable side to hold for the wish and break.. Today I’d take a breast anytime over anything else.

    * The content of my post wouldn’t have mattered. You might have noticed that ALL my recent posts get a down vote, regardless of content. After this past Sunday, it was easy for me to figure who the childish person is.

  • InkedMarie

    You posted this on Friday and it just got to my email box today, on Tuesday!

  • Shawna

    Oh my gosh LOL!! Speaking as a life long mid-westerner I hope I’m not viewed as “typical”. Hee hee

    Not sure why you were given a negative mark on this post as you aren’t implying anything simply posting?

    I too very much prefer free ranging eggs. However I’m not a fan of fat at all — unless its organic bacon fat :). I HATE dark meat (higher fat) chicken even—would rather do without than eat dark meat chicken. I toss red meets that are too marbled etc. That is obviously why I prefer free range meats to corn fed.. Actually, if I HAD to choose meat or veggies I’d pick veggies, with eggs being the exception, every time. My faves are steamed brussel sprouts and whole, fresh green beans. My three year old grand daughter likes meat too but she will eat the veggies off her plate (esp if brussel sprouts or broccoli) before anything else :)…

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’ll agree with you on the eggs. Farm fresh free-range eggs are so much better than grocery store eggs. I’m lucky – my friend has chickens (free ranging) so I can just pick up free eggs whenever I want.

  • losul

    I could never resist eating most of the fat from a corn fed prime ribeye. Yum, the flavor.

    I have to say though, I definitely prefer the taste of eggs from free range natural “country” chickens, and buy them when I can get them.

    All this talk about corn fed and grain fed got me wondering where the term “corn fed” came from when referring to people.

    warning some of the definitions are a bit “off color”

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Corn+fed

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’m glad you mentioned the chicken! One year when I was younger we raised/butchered our own chickens. We fed them all natural vegetarian food, they were free roaming, etc. After we butchered them, we had a big chicken dinner with the family and everyone was raving about it and how good it was and I was just thinking in my head that regular grocery store chicken tastes soo much better. lol!

  • JellyCat

    I love corn fed beef. I grew up outside of North America in Eastern Europe, and I never enjoyed our natural beef. I fell in love with fatty American steak.
    Even chicken meat is not as good if it is natural. It’s really good for broth and boiling – super tasty, but frying is deadly :-)
    That’s my full disclosure.

  • InkedMarie

    We joke in my family that the reason we can be full after dinner but still have dessert is because we all have a separate dessert compartment!

  • Mary Lou

    LOL!! Agree!! I buy organic as much as possible in that department. Why don’t those organic carrots taste as good even when dipped in humus?! : )

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I usually buy it too, I make myself eat it even though I’m wishing I was eating corn fed black angus the whole time. Of course I also think conventionally raised fruits and vegetables taste better than organic (aside from during the summer when I can get fresh organic at the farmer’s market) – but I force myself to eat organic. If only what was good for us is what tasted best lol

  • Mary Lou

    HDM ~ I’m going to have to agree with you. I buy the grass-fed beef pretty often. My husband thinks it’s fine, but to me ~ just not mouth watering. Haha! : )

  • Hound Dog Mom

    That looks interesting. I could’ve used that last time I made a grass-fed roast beef. It was so tough I ended up feeding it to the dogs lol Since then I’ve pretty much been sticking to ground beef when I do grass-fed, with burgers I can’t taste as much of a difference.

  • losul

    I’m using 2 of the 4 layer ones, there only probably 7 inches in diameter, but work well as long as sprouts rinsed twice a day.

  • Pattyvaughn

    My grass fed steer was some of the best meat I have ever tasted. I wonder what the difference is.
    Oh, and dairy cows are definitely kept differently than beef cattle, they don’t produce much milk under stress so they are pastured, not feed lotted. They come in to be milked twice a day and are grained at that point, but are normally pastured the rest of the time.

  • losul

    I agree, I realized my post might be misinterpreted see above.

  • losul

    not saying they taste better than grain fed, just that proper aging/tenderizing improves the grass fed. They’re tough without tenderizing.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’ve been doing my own alfalfa sprouts. I have a 3 layer tray sprouter I got for Christmas – my dogs love them too. I want to start diversifying but I’ve just been stuck on alfalfa sprouts lately lol

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I think that’s a matter of opinion. I’ve had a lot of very expensive well cooked steaks from grass fed beef and imo they just don’t have the flavor corn fed beef does. There’s a steakhouse I’ve been to a couple of times with my boyfriend that has dry-aged grass-fed steaks (not cheap steaks either – like $80+ steaks), I got a filet mignon last time I was there and the flavor was just not there for me. My neighbors raise black angus, it’s corn fed and hands down the best beef I’ve ever tasted. It’s served in most of the restaurants in my area, it just can’t be beat.

  • Shawna

    That’s AWESOME losul!!
    I’ve never sprouted my own. I buy them already that way :).. I do have wild garlic growing in my back yard though.. WAY more potent than anything I’ve ever bought from the store.
    Let us know how the sprouting goes. I may decide to give it a try after the grandbabies move out..

  • losul

    If they’re aged properly, they taste better and more tender. nowadays they usually use other means of tenderizing, including mechanical.

  • losul

    Yes,I have a couple of sprouting books now, and 8 trays plus colandars growing them lol. Mung beans, lentils, japonica rice, wheatberries, broccoli,alfalfa, red clover, garlic and onion.

    Gonna try to sprout the flax and chia again. they’re different with the mucousy goo lol.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    My grocery store doesn’t carry their tortillas or cereal. :( Just the english muffins and bread.

  • losul

    y/w

  • Shawna

    OH MAN, that sounds GOOD!!! I use their tortillas a lot in the summer. I also tried and liked their cereal that is similar to Grape Nuts. However, I’m not sure if it’s extruded and as such if it may have some health consequences. I don’t eat cereal but I liked it on salads as an alternative to nuts.. :)

  • aimee

    Sorry Shawna,
    I’m not following you. You lost me I don’t know what point you are trying to make.

    I may post back later but I have stuff to do.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    That’s one think I’ll agree with you on, wholeheartedly. Corn fed beef tastes a heck of a lot better than grass fed beef. I generally try to buy grass-fed because I think it’s nutritionally superior, but man I hate spending more for something that doesn’t taste half as good.

  • losul

    Yeah I did see that statement. That must make a smelly compost pile. I guess better there than the other option.

    I’ve seen some of the largest feedlots in Texas and Kansas years ago,, seemed to be much more crowded than Magnum. And they knew this guy was coming. So as I say probably the reality probably lies somewhere in between.

    Yes, I’ve taken all your information to heart. These days we are sprouting most of the grains, legumes, and seeds, for ourselves, our parrots,and a few for the dog. Sorry I ever said the lectin-smectin thing.

  • Gebomartin

    We digress….I thought this was a “hate Bil-Jac” forum. LOL
    Let’s get back on topic and keep people angry and upset regarding “to feed or not to feed” Bil-Jac.
    I actually am prejudiced towards Bil-Jac. It is wonderful that I actually found a product that makes my dogs fur look and feel great! No bad breath or dog odor. Their poop still stinks. My 83 year old Mom asked me what shampoo I had been using on my dogs. I asked her “Why?” and she said their coats look almost “human.” The shine and feel was really different than 3 months ago. Yeah, that doggone corn has really confused my Mom. It was probably he shampoo.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I love Ezekiel stuff. I had a tuna salad and alfalfa sprout sandwich on their sprouted sesame bread for lunch. :)

  • aimee

    Very interesting read losul! Thanks for posting it

  • Shawna

    This is an interesting article on sprouting grains from the Whole Grains Council dot org.

    “Until then, the seed counts on certain built-in growth inhibitors to keep it from germinating until temperature and moisture conditions are just right. Then, once sprouting starts, enzyme activity wipes out these growth inhibitors and transforms the long-term-storage starch of the endosperm to simpler molecules that are easily digested by the growing plant embryo…..

    Health Benefits of Sprouted Whole Grains

    Sprouting grains increases many of the grains’ key nutrients, including B vitamins, vitamin C, folate, fiber, and essential amino acids often lacking in grains, such as lysine. Sprouted grains may also be less allergenic to those with grain protein sensitivities.

    The pace of research is quickening, with studies documenting a wide range of health benefits for different sprouted grains. Here are just a few:

    Sprouted brown rice fights diabetes.

    Sprouted buckwheat protects against fatty liver disease.

    Cardiovascular risk reduced by sprouted brown rice.

    Sprouted brown rice decreases depression and fatigue in nursing mothers.

    Decreased blood pressure linked to sprouted barley.” http://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/sprouted-whole-grains

  • Shawna

    Interesting :)

    I actually did find a research paper showing the difference in bacterial contamination between grain and grass fed beef. It was higher in grain fed. I have the link at home (I think I saved it). I’ll post it later.

    Read the article I posted about wintering breeding cattle on corn supplement rather than exclusively hay. They have to add antibiotics even when the corn is only at 50% or less. However soybean meal etc was added as well.

    Did you notice this statement in the article you linked — eeek. “Magnum recently started composting manure and mortalities (i.e. cattle that don’t make it). It’s gotten more expensive to send deceased cattle to processing plants that manufacture pet foods, so this was the next best option.”
    The feedlot that my mom worked at, I road the bus (and later drove) by it every day I had to go to school/town. It looked much the same as the one pictured in your link.
    Yes, grains are just grass seeds. But they have anti-nutrients and enzyme inhibitors that prevent them from being eaten (by those that eat such naturally) BEFORE they have sprouted and become a plant. THAT is when they are most nutritious. My MD/CCN says I can eat all the grains I want ONCE they have been “properly” prepared by sprouting, fermenting or long soaking in an acidulated medium. Ezekiel is one company that makes sprouted grain products. Nuts and seeds (like sunflower seeds) should also be long soaked to nutralize anti-nutrients.

  • losul

    That was a fascinating read, Shawna, Here’s a whole different viewpoint from Ryan Andrews-vegetarian who visited Magnum feedlot.

    Maybe the reality lies somewhere in between?

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cattle-feedlot-visit

    Aren’t grains essentially seeds of grasses?

  • Shawna

    Cows have to be “taught” how to eat corn and they have to be “supplemented” when eating corn.

    “RumensinTM in the supplement was fed the past two years. RumensinTM is a feed additive routinely used for feedlot cattle to improve feed efficiency and reduce acidosis (off feed) and bloat problems. During the first two years when com-based diets were fed, Rumensin was not used and 3-4 cows each year went off feed for a couple of days. When this occurred, the cow was separated from the herd and fed hay for two days and then
    gradually adjusted back to the corn diet before returning her to the herd. During the past two years, RumensinTM was used in the supplement, and no off-feed problems have occurred. just like for feedlot cattle, RumensinTM will also improve feed utilization for cows…..

    This program for wintering cows was developed to reduce daily feed costs as much as possible, thus only a minimum amount of hay is provided.” http://www.animalrangeextension.montana.edu/Articles/Beef/Wklynwsltr/10-30-01.htm

    Note they say nothing about the health of the cow as a reason to add corn!!!!

    RumensinTM is a class of antibiotics known as ionophores. They have to include antibiotics when they feed corn — even to cattle not in feedlots. IF corn was a “natural” food for a cow why would they need to add something like Rumensin?

  • Shawna

    Corn disrupts the gut bacteria just as many sources state.

    I’m not sure I buy the whole balancing act between production and health in dairy industry. IF it was a balancing act as you state, rBGH would never have been so widely used and strongly supported. rBGH is known to increase the risk of mastitis in dairy cattle. Which results in the need for antibiotics. rBGH has nothing to do with the health of the cow and everything to do with production.

    I found this New York Times article interesting. It was published in January 2011.

    “F.D.A and Dairy Industry Spar Over Testing of Milk

    Today, every truckload of milk is tested for four to six antibiotics that are commonly used on dairy farms. The list includes drugs like penicillin and ampicillin, which are also prescribed for people. Each year, only a small number of truckloads are found to be “hot milk,” containing trace amounts of antibiotics. In those cases, the milk is destroyed.

    But dairy farmers use many more drugs that are not regularly tested for in milk. Regulators are concerned because some of those other drugs have been showing up in the slaughterhouse testing.

    Federal officials have discussed expanded testing for years. But industry executives said that it was not until last month that the F.D.A. told them it was finally going to begin.

    The agency said that it planned to test milk from about 900 dairy farms that had repeatedly been caught sending cows to slaughter with illegal levels of drugs in their systems.

    It said it would test for about two dozen antibiotics beyond the six that are typically tested for. The testing would also look for a painkiller and anti-inflammatory drug popular on dairy farms, called flunixin, which often shows up in the slaughterhouse testing.” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/business/26milk.html?_r=0

    I also doubt that the feeding of “candy” is for the cows best interest.. Corn got costly so candy was added.. Do you believe that is in the cows interest aimee? I’m doubting it..

    “Some feed lot operators and dairy farms are using candy and other sweet treats such as baked goods and Cap’n Crunch cereal as a substitute for corn on a limited basis.

    Candy does not have the nutrients of corn and couldn’t be substituted entirely for the grain. It would be as unhealthy as human going on an all-candy diet. But cows may be getting more out of candy than empty calories. Farmers are noticing increases in milk production and of course it certainly helps fatten them up.” http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=170bb8c0-e0ab-4180-9d68-fa427f21ac3b

  • Gebomartin

    Amen!

  • aimee

    I see this issue as it being a lack of dietary fiber that makes cattle ill, not corn makes cattle ill.

    Through the feeding of “concentrates” we are pushing production. In the case of beef cattle industry, growth takes precedent over health/longevity.

    In the dairy industry it is a balancing act of production with health. We want our cows to live and produce.

    “Corn” is nor the bad guy, pushing production is.

    “When cattle are fed grain, productivity is increased, but fiber-deficient rations can disrupt physiological mechanisms”.

  • Gebomartin

    My bad, I wasn’t talking about beef cattle. I was talking about dairy cattle.

  • Gebomartin

    Well, I’ve had grass fed beef that my roommate brought when I was in college. Not very tasty. I couldn’t eat it even though it was free. Nope, I went to supermarket and paid for my ground beef. Beef cows are made for us to eat so I want them to be marbled and tasty when I fire up the BBQ. Beef cows aren’t pets.

    The references in my earlier post referred to dairy cows, not beef cows. Very different animals. Dairy cows are checked for antibiotics in their milk. Their milk is sampled at the processing plant for antibiotics. If you put milk in the tanker from your dairy and it has antibiotic in it, you (Mr. Dairy Farmer) have to pay for all the milk that had to be dumped. Both all yours and all of the other dairy farms milk that was in the tanker mixed with yours which normally is 1000′s of gallons. Very expensive mistake!
    Now, dairy cows can be pets. They are raised to make milk and may be with you 5 years or so. They are not raised to eat.

    In all honesty, I don’t know what goes on in feedlots (where the beef cows are) and I’m not very confident about what I read about it in books.

  • Shawna

    Stanford University

    “Grass-fed beef is a healthier, more ecologically-sound alternative to today’s conventional corn-fed beef. By nature, all cows eat grass. They are ruminants, which means that they are able to digest grasses in a series of stomachs. In today’s industrial agriculture, cows are fed corn in “concentrated animal feedlot perations” (CAFOs) where they are fattened. A corn diet is unnatural and will make cows sick unless they are given large doses of antibiotics to stave off disease.” http://sustainablechoices.stanford.edu/actions/at_the_store/grassfedmeat.html

  • Shawna

    I grew up in rural Colorado outside of Wray Colorado. I now live in Nebraska. I’ve lived most my entire life in the corn belt.. I grew up with corn fields and cows around me. I helped herd cattle and mend fences. We lived seven miles from the feed lot my mom worked at as a bookkeeper – Bledsoe Feed Lot.

    They take calves off grass and start to feed them corn to em grow FAST and fatty.. We have been told marbling is good. Corn fed cattle also have a higher amount of saturated fat and a higher ratio of omega 6 to 3 than does grass finished cattle.

    Michael Pollan author of “The Omnivores Dilemma” is interviewed by Frontline.

    “It creates a whole [host] of changes to the animal. So you have to essentially teach them how to eat corn. You teach their bodies to adjust. And this is done in something called the backgrounding pen at the ranch, which is
    kind of the prep school for the feedlot. Here’s where you teach them how to eat corn.

    You start giving them antibiotics, because as soon as you give them corn, you’ve disturbed their digestion, and they’re apt to get sick, so you then have to give them drugs. That’s how you get in this whole cycle of drugs and meat.

    What do we do about that? Another antibiotic. … Most cows on feedlots eating this rich diet of corn are prone to having their livers damaged. So to prevent that, or limit the incidence of liver disease, we have to give them another antibiotic.” http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/interviews/pollan.html

    It’s a very enlightening article. You can also find data from ranchers and from universities (been a while since I looked though).

  • Gebomartin

    Not at all. No problem. ;-)

  • LabsRawesome

    At least it was an honest one. lol

  • Pattyvaughn

    Been there, done that! I always thought it was weird that they called it 4 stomachs, but they’ve been doing that for so long that I guess they can’t change it now. I remember as a kid trying to make sense of explanations of how a cow digests its food and being totally confounded with the idea of the cow regurgitating, chewing, swallowing, and the bolus somehow magically knew to go to the second stomach, thinking that a cow had 4 completely seperate stomachs. I think the details I got in college still left me with some magical thinking about how cows stomachs really work.

  • Gebomartin

    I made a mistake. I meant to type “4″. But if I want to be super critical of MYSELF, they only have 1 stomach with 4 compartments. LOL

  • Gebomartin

    Correct. I made a mistake.

  • LabsRawesome

    Cows only have 4 stomachs.

  • Pattyvaughn

    5 stomachs? 5? Rumen, reticulum, omasum, abomasum, what am I missing? Oh, are you counting the dorsal and ventral sacs of the rumen separately?

  • LabsRawesome

    Nicer?? Were we reading the same posts? I never called her any names or disrespected her. All of my posts are still intact, none of mine had to be deleted. I was nothing but nice. Especially considering how I was being treated. Maybe she should learn how to treat others like she would want to be treated. Not in a disrespectful and rude manner. All she managed to prove is that she is rude and childish. And obviously NOT a veterinarian……I think she is one of those people that works for Bil-Jac. Dog food companies pay people to post comments on sites like this. Anyone that defends a product so fiercely must have a reason. I have a bunch of different foods that I use, people might say the food doesn’t work for their dog, or them, for whatever reason. I am not going to have a meltdown. And defend it to the death. Not every food will work for every dog. And some ingredients don’t work for some people. There is NO reason to act the way she did. Not just toward me, but anyone that disagreed with her. She is a very hateful person. Their is nothing to forgive. People like her are just a speck on a flea…..and really not worthy of my time.

  • Gebomartin

    Sure did read them, Had them all on my cell phone. I totally agree that she crossed the line in a few of her remarks. No one should ever have typed what she did, With that being said, wouldn’t you agree she was being disrespected as well?
    I was feeling sorry for how she was being addressed and I finally just turned off my emotions. I believe she felt backed in a corner and you and I know what usually transpires when that happens.
    If i may be so bold as to speak my mind, I don’t think I would be too far off if I said some people who were jousting with her got exactly what they wanted. They got their heart’s desire, so to speak. Some may have wanted her to break and she did.
    Like I said, she was wrong. Maybe we all should be a little nicer to those we merely disagree with.
    Your best option would be to forgive her and move on.
    Agree?

  • LabsRawesome

    Gebomartin, I don’t know if you got to read Lezli’s comments before they
    were deleted. But she was one of the most vicious people that have ever
    posted on this site. Why do you think that all of her comments were
    deleted by Dr. Mike or one of the other moderators? I’ll give you a
    clue- they weren’t nice. And they didn’t have anything to do with dog
    food. They were all personal attacks on me. To somehow prove her point,
    that Bil-Jac is THE greatest dog food in history, she resorted to name
    calling, belittling,making fun of my screen name by using some “very
    descriptive” words,(LabsRawesome sucks Co**) pretending to be a
    veterinarian, and basically just acting like a total a$$. She reminded
    me of a 2 year old, throwing a temper tantrum…..

  • LabsRawesome

    Gebomartin, I don’t know if you got to read Lezli’s comments before they were deleted. But she was one of the most vicious people that have ever posted on this site. Why do you think that all of her comments were deleted by Dr. Mike or one of the other moderators? I’ll give you a clue- they weren’t nice. And they didn’t have anything to do with dog food. They were all personal attacks on me. To somehow prove her point, that Bil-Jac is THE greatest dog food in history, she resorted to name calling, belittling,making fun of my screen name by using a swear word, pretending to be a veterinarian, and basically just acting like a total a$$. She reminded me of a 2 year old, throwing a temper tantrum…..

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    To Whom It May Concern,

    The Dog Food Advisor community encourages “courteous critiques, polite debate and calm disagreement”.

    Unfortunately, recent remarks here compel me to remind all involved to adhere to Our Commenting Policy which states:

    “… we delete comments that exceed the boundaries of courteous behavior. This includes remarks that are rude, profane, mean-spirited, disrespectful, lack good manners or otherwise unrelated to the topic at hand.”

    Thanks for supporting this important rule.

  • JellyCat

    Hello LabsRawesome, I didn’t get a chance to read her previous comments.
    You might be right.

  • Guest

    Picked up a bag of Bil-Jac treats at the store today out of curiosity. It contained propylene glycol. Shame on them as otherwise the food appears half decent. Just a reminder to everyone to always read ALL ingredients before you buy.

  • Gebomartin

    I understand all your points except the one about corn making cows ill. I was a nutritionist for a feed mill in the second largest dairy county in my state. Corn was normally feed up to 50% of the DM intake for those dairy cows. It is the primary source of carbs used in rumen fermentation and milk production. There were over 40,000 dairy cows in this county. Corn does not make a cow ill. You have been given bad information. And if it matters, you don’t feed the cow, you feed the microbes in 1 of her 5 “stomachs.”

  • Marie

    To paraphrase the person that started this site, do you go to a doctor to interpret a box of Corn Flakes? Of course you don’t, that would be ridiculous. So why do we need to a.) be a vet or b.) appeal to some other authority in order to make educated and correct decisions about our dog or cat’s diet? The answer is we don’t. A dog trainer doesn’t know any more than an average vet about nutrition. Or heck, neither does the average dog owner. Or dentist. Just use your brain and the most powerful informational tool in the history of mankind to find out what’s right for your dog.

  • Shawna

    Hi Gebomartin,

    Yes, I’d rather see the corn replaced with something that doesn’t have phytates and lectins (which is not easy). I also have a really hard time believing that something, like corn, that makes a cow ill could be good for dogs. However, I am completely unaware as to how the corn is processed in this food. Maybe that makes the difference.

    I also would much rather see another source of preservative but it’s not one or two ingredients in this food that turns me off.

    I prefer foods with significantly more protein. However, all foods can have high protein toppers added.

    They add flaxseed but adult dogs are not capable of converting ALA to DHA. Some owners may get a false sense of security in thinking that the food is balanced in omega 3s. Because DHA is so important for brain, eye and heart health this is a very unfortunate thought.

    I too am a raw feeder and don’t add any grains or fillers. I too feed by-products like liver, heart, kidneys, brain, lungs etc. But it is a very small portion of the diet at only 10%. Most of the diet is muscle meat. I also feed bones and chicken legs but again as a small portion of the diet.

    I’ve always liked seeing added amino acids in foods. Always felt it helped make the proteins more bioavailable. However, just this week I read that supplemented, single amino acids are not utilized by the body in the same manner as those from a whole food source. I need to look in to this more but at only 30% protein if the above is correct it lessens the amount of usable protein even more.

    The food is “gently processed” — is that correct. If so, they still have a very impressive list of vitamins and minerals that need to be added back in. I would expect that a food subjected to less processing would need less add nutrients?

    However, what REALLY turned me off to the food and moreso the company was seeing the ingredients and analysis of their raw food diet… That, in my opinion, is completely inexcusable.. Just my opinion though.

    I do know that those that use the food are very happy with the results. Yet I see people vehemently defending foods like Beneful too. Customer loyalty isn’t always a good indication of quality.

  • Marie

    There is absolutely nothing better than getting 104 new emails in my inbox for this conversation.

  • losul

    you can usually get some of them in “comment history”

  • Gebomartin

    Thank you. It’s nice to actually have a discussion. Did you read the kibble article in the latest Popular Science mag? It explains how the pet food industry is changing making food not with the “consumer” in mind so much as the “purchaser” in mind. It references one company that is developing a “vegetarian” cat food. Can you believe it? It’s hard to make a decision when we are fighting against corp marketing. It’s sort of like choosing a church. The one everyone is putting down might be the one to try out. I’m sorta at that point when it comes to feeding my 4 dogs. If “everybody” is attacking it, it must be good. Well, at least good enough to give it a try. If I could, I would feed raw as well. I believe that is the best way to go but I’m not willing to take the time. Working, taking care of both my parents, church…I’m not sure can work it in. Although I believe it is better.

    I did some research on corn and came to the conclusion that if it is processed the “correct” way, it actually does have some nutritional benefit and brings more to the food than just for use as a binder. I would rather not feed potatoes, wheat, rice, or peas but I have not problem feeding corn the way Bil-Jac says they process theirs. Pretty twisted, huh?

    I don’t understand why so many dog owners “swear” by Bil-Jac and give it such high ratings on Petco, Petsmart, etc, but some people here on this forum get so upset when we get great results and post them??? Sure everyone is not gonna like it. I could not feed what is reputed to be the “Mercedes Benz” of dog food out of Canada and I tried several different varieties of it. My dogs did not do good on it. Sure it could have been “operator error” but it did not work for me. I feed Bil-Jac after researching BHA and corn and my dogs have never been better. I type this with full knowledge that last statement alone may bring attacks. Anyways, I understand your position and appreciate your response. Be Blessed!

  • InkedMarie

    He removed all her posts.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    My dogs only eat species-appropriate whole foods. No grains or other starches. High protein, moderately high fat and low carbohydrates. To tell you the truth, I’m one of the few on this site who doesn’t believe there is a significant difference between binders in pet food. I don’t really think white potato is healthier than corn or peas are healthier than rice, etc. etc. I would feed a 30/20 formula with corn (granted all the other ingredients were acceptable, i.e. no unnamed by-product, dyes, etc.) before I’d feed a “grain-free” product that was loaded white potato and only 22/15. There are some ingredients that I just would never feed, but in general I think the goal should be maximizing protein and limiting filler (binders/starches). I generally recommend grain-free foods not so much because they’re “grain-free,” but because it just so happens that the majority of the highest protein foods on the market are grain-free. Starches are a necessary evil in kibble, but because I feed a raw diet I can completely eliminate them. Dogs have no dietary need for grains or other starches and they don’t provide any nutritional benefit.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Shoot, wish I did, too; I think I was mistaken about being able to pull up old posts that have been deleted. Probably for the best.

  • Gebomartin

    Why didn’t you feed them any corn? All kidding aside, I am being very serious.

  • Gebomartin

    beaglemom, just bloviating. Yoga?

  • InkedMarie

    I get them in email :)

  • beaglemom

    I don’t believe anyone here was complaining about organ meat. And I still would never voluntarily feed something on a regular basis that I knew contained a carcinogen.

  • beaglemom

    I definitely think it was Dr. Mike as Lezli didn’t know when to keep her mouth shut for her own good. One of the nastiest people I’ve ever had the displeasure of reading on this site.

  • InkedMarie

    Wow, Lezli may have deleted the comment, or Dr Mike did but not nice. I read DFA via email first so I got to see it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Hey Labs, you might still be able to read the deleted comments. Try clicking on her name in blue next to her gravatar. ; )

  • Hound Dog Mom

    My dogs love lungs, stomach and liver. In fact they had a venison heart/liver/lungs/pancreas/spleen/kidney/tripe/trachea mix for breakfast this morning. No corn though – squash, apple and blueberries instead. :)

  • Gebomartin

    Cheez nachos with the cheez out of a can and a Sun drop for me! Trust me, some people here will never understand the point of corn in a food. They have no understanding of pet food manufacturing and the concept you must have a binder to hold it together and that fact that when you use predominately fresh meat it takes a different preservative than food with high meat meal content. They are confusing an animal with human beings. Organ meat, my goodness!!!!! Lungs, stomach, liver, oh, nooooooo…
    Lezli, it’s hard to educate fools (not saying anyone here is one).

  • Gebomartin

    Lezli, it took me 25 years to see the truth (dog nutrition, that is) and some people never see it. You can recognize it when they try and twist your wurds, point your grammer, speelling and such. Don’t go there as their are SOME vicious people here. Probably one of the toughest boards to have discussion on that I’ve ever seen and/or been a part of…..

  • Gebomartin

    Wow, I’m not sure about the Oxymoron but sometimes the things we type make us appear to me moronic. LOL

  • LabsRawesome

    Hey Jellycat, if you could’ve read all of Lezli’s deleted comments you would have no doubt that she is definitely NOT a Vet. She is an uneducated infantile person. She acts like a 2 year old, throwing a tantrum.

  • JellyCat

    Lezli, how did you determine that every cancer case you’ve seen was “from” genetics? While some animals are genetically predisposed to certain cancer types, it has been well established that some cancers can be caused by carcinogens in food and environment. Additionally, genetic predisposition to cancer doesn’t warrant that a particular animal will get it. This why it is of significant importance to keep an animal healthy, in particular its immune system. This includes avoiding unhealthful foods containing proven or suspected carcinogens.

    I’m also very curious about how high protein diets cause renal failure? This claim is probably only applicable to animals with proteinuria. Do not make misleading claims especially if you introduce yourself as a member of particular profession. By doing this, you damage reputation of your profession.

  • LabsRawesome

    Lezli, I DO NOT believe that you are a Vet, you seem like a very uneducated
    person, that resorts to name calling and throwing temper tantrums like a
    2 year old when she doesn’t get her way.

  • LabsRawesome

    Um, the ability to hear has nothing to do with having knowledge. Or did you mean that you can’t understand me, because of your lack of knowledge? Your posts make absolutely no sense…..

  • LabsRawesome

    Can you read? For the THIRD time, I DID NOT originally correct your spelling. That was 2 other people.

  • LabsRawesome

    I DO NOT believe that you are a Vet, you seem like a very uneducated person, that resorts to name calling and throwing temper tantrums like a 2 year old when she doesn’t get her way.

  • LabsRawsomesukcok

    I went to dogfoodadvisor.com for nutritional advice, said no intelligent person ever.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    Can’t hear you over your lack of knowledge.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    OMG, i made a mistake in spelling. How about you educate me on IMHA, or DKA, or other conditions if you know so much! Grammar/spelling nazis are usually the most ignorant of the bunch.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    Hey, when I meet you, I’ll be happy to ask for fries with my drink.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    “Maybe Lezli is Psychic? She is obviously always right, has perfect spelling. And she has somehow proven that their is ABSOLUTELY NO correlation between cancer and diet, or cancer and CARCINOGENS. Lezli, please stop making outrageous claims, you have no clue what you are even talking about. You cannot prove that all cancer is genetic. Or are you now claiming to be a geneticist? Hey every one, that smokes, don’t worry go ahead and smoke, Lezli has proven that cigarettes are totally safe…..cancer is ALWAYS genetic….”

    Those are your outrageous claims. From the dog’s mouth.

  • LabsRawesome

    Exactly. You just proved my point. On the perfect spelling, I was being sarcastic, by the way….. You would think that a highly educated “Vet” would know the difference, and that it IS mast cell, NOT mass cell. And also not resort to name calling to somehow prove her point….

  • LabsRawesome

    You are the one trying to shove your logic down other peoples throats….and then making fun of everyone that disagrees with you. How grown-up of you……

  • LabsRawesome

    No I don’t pretend to be a DVM, like you. Are you saying that someone
    has to be a Vet, to know anything about nutrition? Talk about making
    outrageous claims. Good nutrition is not rocket science. It’s not really
    all that hard to figure out that fruit and vegetables are better for a
    person than candy. Or that meat is better than corn for a dog DUH.

  • LabsRawesome

    I can’t help it if you are too slow to make the connection between your outrageous claims, and what I posted……

  • losul

    I’m not sure on perfect spelling? The first thing I noticed last night in her 1st post above was that she either mispelled mast cell “mass cell” or she didn’t know better or I don’t know better.

  • LabsRawesome

    Well by your logic all cancer is genetic. So smokers should have no worries….you are the one rambling on.

  • LabsRawesome

    If you want to cry in the corner and suck your thumb, go for it….I wasn’t even the one that corrected your spelling error, FOR THE SECOND TIME. And you are the one being ignorant and rude.

  • losul

    Sure, I’m interested Shawna, thnx. I don’t doubt the power, but just a little leery of most supplements.

  • LabsRawesome

    No I don’t pretend to be a DVM, like you. Are you saying that someone has to be a Vet, to know anything about nutrition? Talk about making outrageous claims. Good nutrition is not rocket science. It’s not really all that hard to figure out that fruit and vegetables are better for a person than candy. Or that meat is better than corn for a dog DUH.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    “First of all, it’s a Shepard.” ROFL

    Still waiting for your credentials.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    Please, then educate me. Are you a DVM? Or just another pet food reviewer with absolutely no education?

  • losul

    I wasn’t aware of so many. The Critical Care One looks most interesting of the 2 to me. But K-9 seems to be the only one I still see that claims “no China ingredients.” It’s a very hard claim to make with these types of mushrooms.

    For pure agaricus, I found this one, but again there is not a “no China claim”. , even though agaricus is native to Brazil, I think it’s probably sourced from China, because alot of it is coming from there, and some of it might not even be the real thing.

    http://www.americannutrition.com/store/nutraceuticsrx_agaripure_bulk_powder_250g.html

    Most of the highly documented medicinal mushrooms are not native here, but I’m sure there are many here with very powerful properties. These days I mostly limit my wild mushroom hunting to morels, luv them.

    The first things I learned about hunting them
    1) If ever in doubt or unsure, do NOT eat.
    2) Always keep milk thistle on hand in case of a dumb mistake.

  • LabsRawesome

    You are the one making uneducated posts, and outrageous claims. And feeding Bil-Jac…lol.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    I’m being rude when you make ridiculous claims about me talking about cigarettes? TROLL/IGNORANT

  • LabsRawesome

    You are the one being disruptive and rude. Maybe you should take your own advice, and move along.

  • beaglemom

    Good for you. I have a big problem with it. Case closed. No need to be nasty.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    OHZNOEZ! A SPELLING ERROR! Excuse me while I cry in the corner and suck on my thumb. Or I can go on with my day and ignore your ignorance.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    I agree with you. And we try to educate owners on such matter. It’s the food-Nazi’s here that drive me crazy. It’s the same with human food crazies. Do what you feel is best; stop shoving your logic down other ppl’s throats. (Not directed at you.)

  • LabsRawesome

    Um I wasn’t even the one that corrected your spelling. Maybe you should reread the posts. lol.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    Wow, where did I talk about cigarettes? Obviously my logic got to you. Please feel free to ramble on.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    I never said it was all genetic. Maybe you’re psychic? Or an uneducated owner.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Lezli –

    I don’t know how everyone else feels, but I know that my reasoning for being against foods with certain ingredients known to be harmful is that most dogs eat the same food for every meal day in and day out (unfortunately). I eat extremely healthy (grass fed meat, organic fruits/veggies/eggs/dairy, sprouted grain products, etc. etc.) 90% of the time. Do I eat a bag of chips or swing through the drive-thru every once in awhile? You betcha – but it’s not something I do on a daily basis. I don’t think that consuming a food with preservatives or carcinogens or MSG or GMOs or whatever on occasion will do any harm, but when making food recommendations for animals it’s a little different because most owners feed these foods on a daily basis. JMO.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001542804237 Lezli Deschain

    Maybe you should re-read your posts before making ridiculous posts. “First of all, it’s a Shepard?” Really, proved my point. Thank you LAA, DVM

    Trollbait