BARF Dog Food (Raw Frozen)

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Rating: ★★★★½

BARF Dog Food receives the Advisor’s second-highest tier rating of 4.5 stars.

The BARF1 Dog Food product line includes four frozen recipes, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • BARF Juicy Chicken Recipe
  • BARF Juicy Combination Recipe
  • BARF Juicy Beef Recipe (5 stars)
  • BARF Juicy Lamb Recipe (3 stars)

BARF Juicy Chicken Recipe was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

BARF Juicy Chicken Recipe

Raw Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 43% | Fat = 36% | Carbs = 13%

Ingredients: Chicken, finely ground bone, chicken liver, egg, broccoli, celery, spinach, carrot, ground flax seed, dehydrated alfalfa meal, apple, pear, grapefruit, orange, dried kelp, cayenne pepper, cod liver oil, garlic, vitamin E supplement, zinc oxide, manganous oxide

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 17.9%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis12%10%NA
Dry Matter Basis43%36%13%
Calorie Weighted Basis30%61%9%

The first ingredient in this dog food includes chicken. Chicken is considered “the clean combination of flesh and skin… derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken”.2

Chicken is naturally rich in the ten essential amino acids required by a dog to sustain life.

The second ingredient includes ground bone, an excellent source of natural calcium.

The third ingredient is chicken liver. This is an organ meat sourced from a named animal and thus considered a beneficial component.

The fourth ingredient is eggs. Eggs are easy to digest and have an exceptionally high biological value.

The fifth ingredient includes broccoli. Broccoli is a healthy green vegetable and a member of the kale family. It’s notably rich in vitamin C and fiber and numerous other nutrients.

Like other cruciferous vegetables, broccoli is believed to provide anti-cancer benefits.

The sixth ingredient is celery. Although raw celery can be very high in water, it can still contribute a notable amount of dietary fiber as well as other healthy nutrients.

The seventh ingredient is spinach. Due to its exceptional vitamin and mineral content, spinach exhibits a remarkably high nutrient Completeness Score3 of 91.

The eighth ingredient is carrots. Carrots are rich in beta-carotene, minerals and dietary fiber.

The ninth ingredient is flaxseed, one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions

First, although alfalfa meal is high in plant protein (about 18%) and fiber (25%), this hay-family item is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

Next, cod liver oil is a fish oil known to be rich in both EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids as well as vitamins A and D.

In addition, garlic can be a controversial item. Although most experts favor the ingredient for its numerous health benefits, garlic (in rare cases) has been linked to Heinz body anemia in dogs.4

However, the limited professional literature we surveyed provided no definitive warnings regarding the use of garlic — especially when used in small amounts (as it likely is here).

And lastly, the vitamins and minerals added to this product are not detailed sufficiently here to permit us to judge their quality.

BARF Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, BARF Dog Food looks like an above-average raw product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 43%, a fat level of 29% and estimated carbohydrates of about 21%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 43% and a mean fat level of 34%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 15% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 79%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical raw dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the flaxseed and alfalfa meal, this looks like the profile of a raw product containing a notable amount of meat.

However, the higher fat content associated with the Lamb recipe may not be appropriate for every animal.

Bottom line?

BARF Dog Food is a grain-free meat-based raw product using a notable amount of various named species as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 4.5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content.

For even more raw diet suggestions, be sure to visit the Advisor’s Recommended Raw Dog Foods summary page.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

01/04/2010 Original review
02/24/2012 Lower rating due to new DFA analysis of fat content
04/24/2014 Last Update

  1. BARF: Biologically Appropriate Raw Food
  2. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  3. Completeness Score is a measure of a food’s relative nutrient content and is computed by NutritionData.com from the USDA’s National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference
  4. Yamato et al, Heinz Body hemolytic anemia with eccentrocytosis from ingestion of Chinese chive (Allium tuberosum) and garlic (Allium sativum) in a dog, Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 41:68-73 (2005)
  • Hound Dog Mom

    I order tripe from Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore.

  • 4FootedFoodie

    Hi Theresa,

    I really like that which I buy at My Pet Carnivore. Right now I’m using their tripe “supermix,” but they also have aplain green tripe. I know others also really like greentripe.com. My picky dog with food intolerance issues loves it. I can always get him to eat boring, but safe for him, kibble with some green tripe and / or goat’s milk.

  • Theresa LoRusso Merrill

    Where do you get your tripe

  • http://www.essentiallydogs.com Essentially Dogs

    I have been using BARF world raw dog food for years. Their food is superior to other raw diets. Their ingredients are within correct ratios and their calcium/phosphorus ratio is also within optimal balance. Also, unlike many foods, they use actual bone from their beef and lamb NOT bonemeal!!! bonemeal is a rendered product and should never be used. The reason why bonemeal is used in many products is because it requires very specialized machinery that is used to grind large bones. If you check out http://www.essentiallydogs.com/feed-dogs, there is a promotion available for their food.

  • theBCnut

    Many people switch to raw by fasting their dog for 24 hours and then starting raw, about 1/4 of a meat though the first day. Mine all get some kibble because I live with a bunch of squeamish people that might have to feed for me sometimes. So since I knew I would always be feeding some kibble, I started by just adding some raw to the kibble like you would with canned food, and then I kept increasing the amount until I had it where I wanted it.

  • Chris

    Thanks. can she go straight onto raw, or do I have to build it up gradually with a mixer, if so how much do I give her ?

  • theBCnut

    Her ability to regulate calcium uptake should have kicked in now and she should have a full set of strong healthy teeth, so now is a great time to start her on raw.

  • Cyndi

    You can start a puppy on raw as soon as you want. I guess, provided she has her adult teeth. Someone else may want to jump in, but in all my research about feeding raw, I don’t think you need to wait. Good for you! There are quite a few raw feeders on here and on the forum side there are many threads regarding raw feeding. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask.
    Also, I think you should post a pic of your puppy! We ALL love to see pics of puppies. Turner and Hooch is one of my favorite movies, so I’d love to see a pic of your puppy! :)

  • Chris

    Hi, I’ve got a 10 month old Dogue de Bordeaux. Anyone know how long your supposed to feed them puppy food before she can go on raw ?

  • Cyndi

    Just make sure you do alot of research in how to balance out the raw with supplements and stuff so she’s getting a nutritious balanced raw diet.

  • Cyndi

    You typically feed 2-3% of their body weight. Not sure with a puppy if you should feed according to her weight now, or go by a guesstimate of her adult weight.

  • jim

    Hi ive got a 6 month old german shepherd female and I want to start her on raw meat does anyone no how much in weight per day to feed her

  • maggie

    Hello! I just discovered this blog site and have decided to get my dogs on a raw food diet because of medical issues. One dog has lupus and has to have steroids periodically; another dog is diabetic and on insulin; another dog has kidney issues and is on a carbohydrate dog food (Science Diet from the vet) and then I have two on thyroid; total 7 dogs, one of whom is a German Shepherd mix. So….the lupus dog is sooooo fat I started him on raw food (chicken) this week and noticed a definite energy boost.
    My question is: do any of you know if the ‘kidney’ dog can do the raw food? I would think not. How about the lupus dog?
    My vet, of course, is totally against the raw food diet but the one dog (lupus dog) is doing so well already and he starting having a breakout and will have to go back on steroids. Have been doing vitamins in hopes of eliminating the steroid meds but not working.
    Help! I know you folks who have dogs sometimes know more than the vet. By the way, six of the dogs are Corgis.

  • Guest

    This link, http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/whynotBARF.php, takes you to an interesting article about some truths about BARF and all those subsequent commercial equivalents that followed it.

  • Guest

    Couldn’t agree more. It’s heart warming when I read fellow dog owners feed the right type of raw diet and proportion to their dogs. But, I’ll occasionally feed my dogs a frozen BARF patty as a very infrequent special treat during a hot day. Not this BARF brand though because I don’t want to contribute to Dr. Billinghurst’s Royalties. I’ll use another BARF product as that infrequent treat.

  • Hound Dog Mom
  • Hound Dog Mom

    There are no added probiotics in this food. I don’t think I know of any frozen raw food with added probiotics. I feed raw and my dogs get kefir and raw green tripe several times per week – both are rich in naturally occurring probiotics. You could also supplement with probiotics if you feel it’s something your dog needs.

  • Jayne

    Does this contain Probiotics?

  • DianaL

    My dogs hate it, good thing I bought the trial package of four.
    They eat Blue canned & grain free dry

  • Shawna

    Nice diet bolty!!  I’m a raw feeder as well.. 

    I have found research articles that state “adult” dogs are not efficient at converting the ALA omega 3 fatty acid in plant foods like flax to DHA (they can convert to EFA).  Adding sardines adds the DHA without mercury. 

    I’m not sure of the benefits of curry but I know turmeric has TONS of therapeutic affects..  Do you add curry for taste, nutritional benefits or therapeutic benefits — or all of the above? 

    Most soy sauce is a source of free glutamic acid (the G in MSG) but I imagine a splash isn’t harmful in most pets. 

  • bolty

    We have been feeding our border collie BARF now for approx 7 years and he is now 12. We have changed the way we do things over the years. Originally we minced all his liver and veges and added to the mince etc. Due to convenience we now use lean mince, heaps of frozen veges, garlic, ginger, spoon curry powder, splash soy sauce, flax seed oil, kelp powder, chicken necks and he gets couple of bones per week. He is really healthy with no weight problems. I totally recommend it and would never feed any future dog tin food etc.

  • Mike P

    I agree as my dog loves real meat.I’m always looking for marked down red meat and when I find it I divide it into meals and freeze it.Mine also loves real fish,chicken,organ meats,and tripe.She gets some kind of meat everyday as toppers.

  • InkedMarie

    Good point!  I dont care bout the vacuuming but if I had even one of his/her dogs, I couldnt’ feed Darwins or The Honest Kitchen

  • neezerfan

    Sounds like fun till you think about the food bill and the vacuuming.

  • InkedMarie

    Wow, two BMD’s and a Leo? I am jealous! 

  • Quickenings02

    Dogs want real whole meats , not meat in a percentage standard. Real veggies in much moderation, no starches,or potatoes…..dogs want Real Meat….I promise they do

  • Quickenings02

    I feed raw bones and meat, not processed patties. My dogs 2 bernese and a leo all have great health, soft beautiful coat, white teeth, and smell great. I recommend raw for diabetes, kidney liver issue(depending on protein allowed) obese, and overall the best health Ive seen in my dogs in 25 years with top of the line kibble,yes holistic, not supermarket or walmart or cosco brands,  but in my opinion Im loving that my dogs look and feel great,  JMO  thanks for listening,

  • Jen CB

    IS the fiber content really over 17%?  On the BARF website, it lists the crude fiber as 5%.  I’m looking for a HIGH fiber food to supplement what I already use, as my dog’s poops always seem to be on the soft side.

  • Syn C

    My boys have special diets to each dog. Kaoss tends to get more Chicken, Fish, Beef, pork and sometimes Deer. Because he’s growing I want to get the best proteins to ensure he grows slowly plus bone/organ. Leonidas because he’s a older guy with a lot of energy and a show dog he gets more “natural” canine meats that a wolf would eat. He gets Rabbit, Deer, Boar, Fish, quail, Chucker, Pheasant & Lamb. Every once in a blue moon I’ll give him chicken because he loves it so but we hunt a lot and in my area boar is a huge issue and deer are abound (esp fresh road kill) it’s easy to feed my dog stuff he enjoys. We also have a farmer close to us who will sell us goat for a good price and they’ll both get that. A lot of our dogs meat comes from farmers in the area so sometimes i’ll pay 75 cents a lb for meat that costs 3-4 dollars in super markets 

  • Syn C

    yeah, originally i was doing Orijien dog food which is around 80 a bag and that stuff is around 29lbs and it would last me a week a bag to feed leonidas and my pit bull (he passed away rip buddy) Leonidas would eat 9cups a day to help him gain some weight and Mayhem my pit would eat 7cups a day to keep him where he should. thats almost 20 cups a day to keep my dogs okay. it would cost me around 320 a month to feed two dogs. Mayhem weighed i wanna say 92lbs. it costs me 3 a day each dog to feed them, Kaoss and him both eat 3lbs each and once kaoss is older he’ll be eatting 2lbs so 5 a day to feed my dogs who weigh around 300lbs together. its crazy to think i spent so much money on kibble for so long. Nothing against orijien my pit bull did well on it but he did better on raw. Even my cats are fed raw lol 

  • Threenorns

    oh – the kibble?  the cheapest i could bear to give him ran $45 a bag.  it was supposed to last a month but he was running through it in 10 days.  the whole time he was on it, he had the runs and mucous shrouds in his poop.  i tried a more expensive brand, same thing. even the BARK didn’t work (it’s supposed to be basically a dehydrated raw diet kibble).

    on natural food, he’s fabulous.

  • Threenorns

    if that’s what it would cost, holy yikes!  no wonder you’re getting scared off!

    i have a 70lb border collie mix – uber-high-energy.  he eats about 14oz/day of meat, bone, etc.  i feed him from the discount bin at the grocery store and it costs me about $3/day and it’s meat we can all eat (i HATED it when the freezer was packed full with the meat from the butcher at 75c/lb but nothing for humans in the house to eat!).

    when he was a puppy and eating like crazy, he still only had a pound and a half a day – still very affordable.

    my dog is incredibly healthy and this is what he eats:  beef, chicken, goat, rarely pork, sometimes lamb, and in the hunting season, moose and deer.  he also eats sweet potato, raw carrots (hates them cooked – they make him gag), egg (raw and cooked), eggplant, broccoli stems, cauliflower, green beans.
    i don’t puree them – i toss it to him and let him have at it.  and no, there’s no huge chunks of undigested vegetable matter in his poop – it’s all pretty homogeneous.

  • Syn C

    my 2 boys (black russian terrier & Belgian Malinois both intact) do best on raw, when i got Leonidas (the brt) he was on kibble and couldnt hold weight to save his life. we did tests on him to see if there was any issues with him and he checked out fine, this it absolutely the best way to keep a dog healthy seeing it’s a natural diet intended for canines. Leonidas when i got him weighed in a 130 odd lbs and is now at a healthy weight of 145 without being over weight. He was a rescue dog and not treated right by the original owners. My malinois has never seen kibble in his life and at 9mths old is the healthiest malinois ive seen in the working world when looking at kibble fed dogs. I find it to be cheaper than kibble by a lot seeing i have a 145lb dog and a malinois we’re expecting to be around 95lbs as i crunched the numbers i realized kibble would cost me 100 dollars more over raw feeding. Most people would tell you its not safe but it is. my dogs are healthy, lean, muscular, shed little, poo less and have no teeth/gum issues (my brt is 7.5yrs) the only thing i hate is the burps lol that stuff stinks!

  • Mike P

    I believe I read somewhere that adding fresh meats twice a week helps dogs by leaps and bounds.That is if you feed a high quality kibble.I add real food 3 days a week and all is well.I wish I had the courage and smarts to make my own raw from the supermarket but I know I can’t.Kibble is just easier during the work week and that’s my lazy side talking.

  • Shawna

    Hi Karen ~~ lots of questions :)

    Raw feeding can be very expensive for large dogs — absolutely.  There are ways to help with the costs (for some).  Making your own using bargain meats, bulk meats, meat from hunting friends/relatives etc. 

    Raw is better for several reasons but if its not affordable I wouldn’t worry about it.. :)  What you can do is add raw foods to the kibble diet. 

    A lot of raw feeders, myself included, do add about 20 to 25% of the diet as veggies and fruits.  Dogs do not make the enzyme cellulase to break down the cellulose fiber in veggies.  However, by fermenting, steaming and/or grating the veggie you can break down the cellulose for them.  There are lots of nutrients in veggies and fruits that can benefit dogs.  Especially dogs living in the toxic environment we expose them too (gasoline fumes, fluorinated water and many many more).  Fermenting the veggies is a way of mimicing the veggies that would be found in smaller prey animals digestive tracts (which I’m told wolves do eat).

    Honest Kitchen uses high quality ingredients (they are one of only two companies that can legally claim they are human grade — the food is processed in a human grade facility).  However, the meats in the foods are actually cooked — as they use heat high enough to cause enzyme loss when dehydrating.  The veggies/fruits are dehydrated in a way so as not to damage enzymes (and vitamins).  My main concern with Honest Kitchen is that they are too low in protein as compared to truly raw diets on the market.

    Kibble isn’t “so bad” but IS different then raw.  In raw you will find natural vitamins.  In most kibbles the vitamins added are synthetic.  And not all are added back in.  Ex – in nature there are 8 kinds of vitamin E.  Kibbled foods, as most, only add 4 of those back in — at most.  Raw has natural enzymes that help digest the food etc… 

    Some kibbles are better then others — some are heated at high temperatures which can create carcinogens within the food — HCA’s as an example.  Some amino acids (what the proteins break down to) are damaged by heat.  Some kibble manufacturers add them back in while others do not.  If they are not added back in the proteins in the food are less utilizable by the body at a cellular level.

  • Kluce51

    Hi, my name is Karen.  Noone answered the gal that asked one of the most important and blatantly obvious concerns about RAW – inparticularly BARF brand raw regarding qty and cost for larg(er) dogs?  Is it true that it would run someone close to $500 a month for a 90lb lab?  This is what I calculated too when I considered buying this.  The BARF (for instance) largest size is sold in a case of 24.  It was referenced that a 40lb dog needs about 1lb (2 patties each feed) of meat so my dog at 90lb would qualify for 2lbs a day (4 /5 patties each feed -) that would be equal to 9/10 patties a day, right?  With that quantity a CASE of 24 would barely last me a few days?  A huge bag of kibble lasts me a month.   I started raw with my lab when he was a puppy.  At that time I bought whole chicken from my supermarket and added Embark.  It was close to $400 a month so had to stop.  This is for a dog  that doesnt hesitate to scoop up deer/duck poop and anything else that sways that nose of his without regard.   Labs in particular are scavengers.  They eat anything.  All this moneyI cant see how “balanced” anything makes sense to animals that eat first, dont care later.   And, my other question, if kibble is so bad (which I dont disagree by the way just can’t afford this RAW the way I calculate it) – why then do dogs “thrive” on it.  My lab is gorgeous despite the crap he is eating now.  I buy EVO now (since I had to get off the raw before I went bankrupt).  Also, I read that veggies are NOT good for dogs either so all these home made recipees I would question would poison him as dogs dont digest many raw veggies.

    At any rate. that is my largest question on cost for a 90lb lab.  I also question if the BARF store bought raw is nothing more than lunchmeat?  I know deli meat in a roll is crap.  How is this not any different?  How do you know?

    And, does anyone out there use EMBARK dehydrated food?  I have yet to find anyone /anywhere giving what I feel an honest review.  It is all the company promoting the product or general dog food marketing saying how great it is but I actually bought it a few years back and can’t see how that is any good.  The meat pieces are barely detectable to the human eye and it is filled with “fruit” which in my opionion is not normal for dogs..come on, blueberries for dogs?  At any rate, I question how it is so good because insnt it very close to ‘instant oatmeal”…instant oatmeal is not good for humans because it is “instant”.  Not sure what makes it instnat but I felt like the Embark was very similar to human “instant” anything..just add water?

    Is EMBARK a good product? 

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Hey Godon,

    I wasn’t Even aware there was a manufactured BARF food. I’m with you. When I say BARF diet, I’m talking about Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods. You know how I feel about flax!

  • Gordon

    Yeah Shameless. That is also the very reason that any commercial raw brand still contains some ash (Not much at and even less than kibble) because of the meat and bones being grounded in the process of making them.

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Mike P – You’re funny.

    “recalled from the Minnesota-based company Cargill”.

    I would think you’re safe but you can always call Wellness and ask where they source the turkey from. I’m waiting for a call back from Earthborn. Better safe than sorry.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    It’s not wise to purchase ground meat unless you know/trust the farmer. My dog has never eaten ground meat. Ground meat is high-risk for pathogens.

    HPP meat is available, if you dare –
    http://www.beefcentral.com/p/news/article/8

    KNOW YOUR FARMER, KNOW YOUR FOOD –
    http://www.eatwild.com/products/index.html
    http://www.pickyourown.org/index.htm#states

  • Gordon

    “BARF is King (Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods)…. just not Billinghurst’s BARF!” ……Spot on Shameless and what’s further, is that I was advised recently, that his patties are made by VIP. At least it is in Australia. VIP is a dog food brand in a roll kept in the fridge of our supermarkets. Now that I know this, if indeed it is true, then I have even more reason to boycott his patties. VIP is not a crash hot dog food going by its ingredients. Although, it’s still better than a lot of kibble brands.

    Ahhh the best BARF food is one you make yourself, knowingly and intentionally using only the best organic meats, veggies and fruits.

  • Mike P

    Sandi sounds like a great football pregame treat . I don’t think Jubilee would get any lol . Man I just stocked up on cans and bought some Wellness Turkey and Sweet potato . I wonder if I should return them ??

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Salmonella Outbreak: Turkey Recall One of the Largest Ever

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/192381/20110804/turkey-recall-salmonella.htm

    I found a dog treat recipe that I was going to make this week – Turkey Meatballs with Parsley. I would have bought organic turkey meat which wasn’t affected by the recall, but still it’s ironic.

    1 lb. ground turkey or other meat
    1 egg
    1 tsp chopped parsley
    optional: 1/4 shredded cheese
    1/2 cup chopped veggies

    Mix all ingredients together and shape into meatballs. Bake at 350 for 10 min. or until browned. Let cool & serve. Depending on size of meatballs, should make about 15. You can freeze them too.

    Mike – maybe when you get a chance, you could add a section for us to add home made recipes. Thanks.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Yikes Gordon – That’s a doozey! And totally unacceptable, no matter the kind of day he was having. Hostile and vulgar behavior is not good business. Since you had prior favorable dialogue with him, it seems maybe he knew he was backed into a corner.
    BARF is King (Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods)…. just not Billinghurst’s BARF!

  • melissa

    Actually Gordon, it wasn’t a shot at you per se. I was roflmao because I could just imagine the stunned expression on ANYONE’s face having been treated in such a manner and after such a brief exchange of words. However, I can only imagine that the gentleman was having a very very bad day of which you were not the cause, but rather the victim.

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Maybe Dr. B was having a ‘bi-polar’ moment. :)

    It sounds like you’ll be better off making your own. I don’t know anything about this website that a Vet recommended to me. You might want to check it out.

    http://vetmedicine.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=vetmedicine&cdn=homegarden&tm=90&f=00&su=p284.12.336.ip_p504.1.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//balanceit.com/

    http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/nutritioninformation/a/BalanceITinterview.htm

  • Gordon

    It’s OK Sandi. You don’t have to keep justifying yourself. It’s water under the bridge. And yes I’m sure it was him, as I’ve spoken to him once before over a phone conversation some time ago, with a more amicable result. Also he actually didn’t even answer the phone, greeting the caller (me) that he’s BARF and/or Dr. B, so I then asked “Who am I speaking with?” to make sure it was him and to recognise his voice as him just saying “Hello” when answering the call wasn’t enough length to be sure. He replied, “This is Ian Billinghurst, and then I knew it was him. Unlike like others, it may seem strange to you, but he in fact does advertise his actual mobile number on his product cartons on the Australian BARF products, but his wife is the one who usually answers his mobile. Her name is Ros (I guess short for Rosylin). But this time he answered the phone.

    Also please don’t mistaken the context of my comments re me bashing myself over my naivety. Because the BARF concept is still the best and is what Nature intended IMO and based on evolutionary facts. Just that my mistake to endorse and promote his version of BARF (Remembering that BARF stands for Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods, and therefore one’s own home made preparation based on the concept of BARF, is also BARF. And so are the other top drawer commercial raw formulations. It’s just that they can’t refer to their brands using the BARF name as its trade marked to its originator, Dr. B).

    So while it doesn’t change the fact that BARF in its general concept is still valid, his commercial BARF products of me promoting it and for free I might add, from a customer perspective was now wrong to do, in hindsight.

    It shows that if he treats his customers that way, then what’s to say that negligible attitude doesn’t filter down the BARF production line with short cuts and a pretense that it is compiled as claimed with high quality ingredients, when that may very well be a lie. And so thanks to his unacceptable customer treatment, he has lost me, my sister and family, my neighbour who was considering BARF and stopping Purina Lucky Dog, and a few friends of mine, from now ever going any where near his products!

    And so I’ll be making time to create my own raw meats/organs to veggie ratio based on the BARF model for my own personal use in feeding my dogs. That being the best guarantee of knowing my dogs are getting the very best.

    melissa – I’d expect you to be “ROFLMAO”. Have your shot at me. I don’t mind lol. And yes regardless of one having a bad day or not, a provider should know to bite their tongue no matter how they feel when it comes to customer service. I have an extensive experience in customer service over the years and have never done anything like this. I have once allowed myself to get entangled in an hostile argument with a customer and was rightfully disciplined over the incident. But a man of his professional stature, no matter how a bad mood he might have been in, is absolutely no excuse what so ever to engage in such bad language and atrocious customer service.

    Dr. Lonsdale on the other hand, I sill consider a “champion”, because his teachings and philosophies are entirely financially unmotivated, as he has no vested interest other than true animal welfare and does not receive any financial gain in him recommending raw meaty bones and such appropriately natural foods for our pets.

  • melissa

    Gordon-

    Okay, I have nothing productive to add, but I have to admit to ROFLMAO over the conversation. Every one and any one person can have a bad day, but just do not voice it. I can only imagine how that response would have caught a person off guard when they expect the tone of the conversation to be vastly different : )

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Are you sure you were speaking with Dr. B himself and not anyone else in customer service. I can’t imagine a Vet giving out his mobile number or be that unprofessional. If you remember, I asked you why you thought the BARF diet was the best compared to the others. I wasn’t being difficult, only wanted to know what makes them “the best”. “Know Your Manufacturer, Know Your Ingredients” is what I base my decision on. My girlfriend met the owner of another kibble at a trade show. She did not have anything positive to say about him. Another girlfriend called his company’s Customer Service and didn’t have positive things to say about their service. Knowing that, I certainly would not buy his brand. It’s my money and my dog’s life!

    Why don’t you call 866-282-2273 and ask to speak with Robert Mueller and tell him of your conversation. Also ask the same question to him re. Menadione.

    Apparently Dr. B knows “Menadione” doesn’t belong in his products and got defensive.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it’s for us to make our decision. As long as you’re not attacking anyone and being respectful :), please continue to give us your input. We are all here to learn from each other.

  • Gordon

    I phoned Dr. Billinghurst today on his mobile number as it is advertised on his products. I brought the recent unanswered web form inquiry and the other unanswered one of a few months back, to his attention and asked him why should I continue to buy his products if he or his business is unwilling to answer inquiries. When I pointed out the latest inquiry I made, he replied, “Oh you’re that bloke”, which tells me he indeed did receive the inquiry. I replied, “Yeah, I’m that bloke”, to which he replied, “I don’t give a f***”, I said, “Oh really?”, being caught off guard and shocked the way I was, of which I couldn’t get another word in as he then said, “Why don’t you f*** off?” and hung up the phone.

    The above is no word of a lie, so help me God! I swear on my Mother’s dieing oath!

    I now feel like the biggest fool, idiot, goose, or whatever the hell you want to name it! After all this time, I’ve been speaking highly of him, having the most admiration of his work etc etc, that whatever you do, don’t ever listen to me again! I’m just going to add my opinions, but don’t ask this dumb a** (me) for any advice!

    I’m now burnt twice…..From BARF and Artemis. Never again! Trust only yourself and no one else. There I go again. I can’t help myself. I’m issuing advice again.

  • Michelle

    Sandi, thanks for the info. Yeah, I know about manufacturers and the shell games that they love to play.

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    I don’t know where else to post this for anyone feeding raw.

    FSIS Issues Public Health Alert For Frozen, Fresh Ground Turkey Products

    http://www.fsis.usda.gov/News_&_Events/NR_072911_01/index.asp

  • Gordon

    No Sandi – That’s occurred in Sydney’s North Shore suburb of Mosman. One of the richest suburbs in Australia. I live about an hours drive west of Mosman.

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi
  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Thanks Shameless for mentioning my book. BTW – it’s books – Who’s Your Vet? and Bernie The Skinny Dog. Bernie The Skinny Dog is a story about animal & people kindness. It is written for children 10+ as well as for their parents. Studies have been made about animal cruelty and its connection to human violence. “Humane Education” teaches kindness and respect for all animals. As a result, it can reduce the risk of animal abuse or violence. There is one section where I talk about “bullies” – why they feel it’s ok to bully other children and what children can do to protect themselves from a “bully.”

    Your nasty comments don’t affect me one bit. I asked you a simple question since the E-Barf Plus sounded like a product I might be interested in. I like to know where the ingredients come from & since you are so proactive in “Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food” I assumed you would have done your homework before feeding it to your dog.

    “Most of the food I consume, and that I feed my dog, comes from farms and fields that I have observed.”

    I really don’t have the time to visit farms to watch the vegetables grow. :)

    Do you know where the raw ingredients come from in human vitamins & minerals? Call your manufacturer and find out. It’s cheaper for companies to source from China.

    Gordon – I called 866-282-2273 re: E-Barf Plus. I originally spoke with Al and asked where the ingredients are sourced from. He said that’s a really good question and put me on hold to ask someone else. He did say that’s a good question but no one ever asked it before. I then spoke with Christoper. I found both men to be very friendly and willing to help. Christoper said they changed computer systems and will have to call to find out about the ingredients. I said I’ll call him back in a few day. Robert Mueller, V.P. is the co-creator along with Dr. B. Dr. B is still on their Board of Directors. They’ve known each other for 35 years.

    Michelle – I hope you realize a pet food company can change a formula anytime they want. They could also change their supplier or manufacturer any time they wish. The best way to know is to call them & ask questions. The Honest Kitchen has a list on their website where they source all their ingredients from. I don’t know another company that is doing that. If anyone knows, please do tell.

    I’m presently feeding Earthborn Primitive. Check out my emails from them on the Earthborn Primitive page. I was previously feeding Wellness Original Core and couldn’t keep weight on my older one. In addition, they changed their formula. I also felt they were too pricey for just a 12 lb. bag that only lasted 19 days. I was feeding 3/4 cup to both 2x/day. I started out feeding 3/4 cup of Earthborn Primitive which caused “d” for the older one. I reduced it to 1/2 cup and he’s fine now. It is a higher protein & fat than Wellness. In the past I fed the Natura Line until P&G tookover. There is no perfect kibble and what works best for one dog might not be good for another. We’re all in the same boat trying to figure it out.

  • Gordon

    Shameless – Ahh that’s a good slogan they chose then. I wouldn’t begin to assume I know what politics are involved with the USDA. But politics seem to engulf every facet of life nowadays.

    Sandi – I have Dr. B’s direct mobile phone number (cell phone number), and have spoken to him once before. But that’s not the point. Sometimes people want answers to inquiries in writing as in this case re the VNE product, so do I. BTW, I still haven’t received a response. It’s a shame, as the BARF patties are really a great product. But it’s like what I said to that dog trainer (Chris), amongst our email correspondence. I stated the following:-

    “The funny thing is, I don’t expect him to just take it out of any future production, just because he received a concerned inquiry over it. It’s his choice or the contract manufacturers compiling or extruding the supplement. But if he or a representative doesn’t reply in relation to their take on this ingredient, then why should such customer (me) buy any of his products? One can’t just rely on their laurels! Especially in today’s economy.”

    Having said the above, BARFWORLD in the US, may contrary to Dr. B’s obvious customer service absence, be a great provider in customer service. IDK, as I haven’t dealt with them.

    But Shameless – Given that E-BARF Plus doesn’t contain K3 and looks as though it has a generally better ingredient formulation, and if Barfworld provide good customer service, and that supplement does your dog well (If you can distinguish this, since your dog feeding regime is healthy regardless), then I personally wouldn’t discourage you in continuing its use.

    Furthermore, I now don’t believe that the E-BARF Plus supplement or the VNE one for that matter, is formulated under Dr. B’s instruction. I think they’ve just purchased from him, the right to place his name to the product. And so, you may very well not even be hurting Dr. B himself by boycotting it.

    Whereas in my circumstance, my boycotting of his BARF patties will have some long term hurt for his business down the track. My sister who studied a business degree told me something along the lines of, if I recall correctly…..”When a business loses one customer, on average, that business ends up losing 5 customers”….

    The other possible consideration of Dr. B’s lack of customer service could be that because he is also a practicing Vet, and probably is kept busy with his work on domestic pets, horses, livestock etc, especially as where he is based, being Bathurst, NSW, is basically country land as opposed city or suburban area. That, accompanied with the fact that he is probably envisaging retirement sooner than later, couldn’t care less these days? IDK, just all speculation of course.

    With regard to Primal or Stella & Chewys for that matter, I would like to be privy to these, but they are not available down under. It doesn’t matter anyway, as I will be formulating my own BARF modeled dog food for my dogs once I’m finished with my dogs’ current box of recently purchased pork flavoured BARF patties.

    I’ve got a busy period of my work coming up, so I won’t be posting with in the next hour from this post, but stay tuned as I’ve also got disappointing news re Artemis, where I’ll post such under the Artemis Maximal thread, when I return.

  • DAWN LEDER

    Sandi–is there anyway i can get your email? or is that not allowed? :O/ we have so much in common would love to chat by emailing..or do you have a Facebook acct? or maybe you dont want me contacting you lol that ok too!! :O)

  • Michelle

    Sandi, oh okay sorry, I thought you might have checked out some different foods for your boys, and could enlighten me. I don’t know if you have previously posted what you feed, but I am genuinely curious, because I know that you do your homework and really check the foods out well. Please let me know which foods you use. Thank You.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Sandi – You sure are testy. Maybe if people disagree with you, your book won’t sell?
    You also mistakenly assume too much. I don’t live in a rural area, and never said that I did. I live almost smack in the middle of the most densely populated county in Florida.
    USA vegetables are easy to get, obviously. But what about those vitamins and minerals in most dog foods that are sourced from China?

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Shameless – Ahh, there you go again being defensive. I’m glad you feel that way. I prefer vegetables from the USA for myself and my boys. And should you move away from a rural area, where will you shop? Not everyone lives near a farm.

    Michelle, call the pet food company and ask where they source their ingredients & vitamins/minerals. I’m sure each mfgr. is different. I don’t know of any list.

  • Michelle

    Hey Sandi, do you have a list of foods that are 100% American sourced, including vitamins? Richard Darlington posted about meats being denatured with creasote and to look for foods that are APHIS EU certified. Any info? If anyone else has any info please post.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Sandi – China ingredients don’t worry me any more or less than most USA ingredients.
    Know Your Manufacturer, Know Your Ingredients isn’t nearly as comforting as Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food.
    Have you visited the manufacturer and manufacturing facility of your dog food company? Or do you just believe what they tell you?
    What is the source of the vitamins/minerals in the dog food you feed? Do you have proof?
    Most of the food I consume, and that I feed my dog, comes from farms and fields that I have observed.

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Hi Gordon – You just gained back my respect! I’m sorry you are disappointed in Dr. B after being a fan of the BARF Diet. Personally, I’d give them a call. I think they need you more than you need them. There are many other raw brands you can switch to. I heard Primal was good. I’ve called many manufacturers and have gotten my questions answered. Also, I did email Earthborn and they responded quickly. Many years ago I called a mfgr. and asked who made their food. They weren’t in a position to answer my question. I went to my girlfriend’s pet store and asked her to call. She stated she has a customer in her store who wants to know who manufacturers you food. Customer service told her to tell her customer not to be paranoid. LOL. She dropped their line. I heard they had the worst customer service.

    “Know Your Manufacturer, Know Your Ingredients” is my motto. Shameless is feeding E-Barf Plus and has no clue where the ingredients are being sourced from. It wouldn’t surprise me if some are coming from China. It would matter to me.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food is a slogan of USDA that some think is motivated only by political agendas.
    http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=KNOWYOURFARMER

  • Gordon

    Oh don’t worry about that Shameless. I guarantee to keep you and anyone else interested, updated re this issue.

    “Know your farmer, know your food”, is a good motto.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Gordon – Thanks for the follow-up. Sounds like a plausible explanation especially since the two supplement products are so very different, E-BARF Plus and Canine Daily Nutritional.

    Your friend Chris’ comment “they don’t seem to care” is a characteristic of too many people and too many companies – more than most people willingly admit.

    Keep us posted and if you don’t get a response from BARF/Billinghurst, I will likely discontinue E-BARF Plus!

    Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food.

  • Gordon

    Shameless and Adam I think it was, and anyone else that may be interested? The following is an answer to your recent question raised and I think you’ll find what I have to say somewhat interesting?

    Anyway, as I stated under the Brothers Complete thread that I promised to email Dr. Billinghurst or BARF Australia (Don’t know who actually accesses their email) hence did so over 24 hours ago, re the ‘Canine Daily Nutritional’ supplement and why it contains Menadione? And why is it different to E-BARF Plus etc which doesn’t contain K3?

    I have not yet received a response and quite frankly, I don’t think I will be. The reason is just the intuitive feeling I get and the fact that I’d emailed him about 2 months ago re a garlic powder product of another brand and what he thought of it, and I never received a response on that question. (But I never held him to it, because at the time, I kinda felt silly asking him about what he thought of the ingredients of someone else’s product). Anyway, because of that non response and the feeling that I won’t get a response on this current inquiry re this supplement’s more warranted inquiry, that has his name to it, I’m somewhat disheartened on such poor customer service. Of course he may end up getting back to me, but as you know, (and as most people are), I’m big on customer service and QA, and if I don’t get a response by the end of this week (Time I think is enough to expect a response), guess whatttttttt? No more BARF purchases by me! I will then just make time to prepare my own home made BARF meals for my dogs.

    Furthermore, I emailed the dog trainer (Chris) who I’ve spoken of before, of whom says he knows Dr. B personally, about how someone had brought this whole supplement discrepancy to my attention and what his take is on why Dr. B or a rep don’t seem to respond?

    He stated that he doesn’t know the reason but his experience is that (of what many of us experience anyway) businesses seem to selectively respond to inquiries. But he never even knew about Dr. B’s supplement products. I told him that it wasn’t obvious as one needs to click on the ‘Learn More’ Tab on his website, and then select ‘VNE’ to be taken to another website that refers to Dr. B’s supplement in question. What’s more is that I then noticed and advised Chris that when I clicked on the VNE website’s ‘Contact Us’ tab, it comes up with the following:-

    “Email us:

    [email protected]
    Call us toll-free:

    1 (866) 616-BARK (2275)
    Write to:

    Customer Service
    Veterinary Nutrition Essentials
    350 Ramapo Valley Road, Suite 18-123
    Oakland, NJ 07436-7300″

    So the mystery deepens, which leads me to believe that the Canine Daily Nutritional supplement is actually an American product aimed at both Australia and the US, and under their VNE website’s ‘Our Doctors’ Tab, it shows Dr. B and his profile. So now Chris and I are further lead to believe that VNE has probably purchased Dr. B’s name to be placed on their product. Chris further stated, “Yes, I think money makes people stupid and make stupid decisions.” Referring to Dr. B’s sellout to a company that has purchased the rights to place his name on their supplement product. And that this company most likely has no relation to BARFWORLD who supply the E-BARF Plus supplement, of who have also probably just purchase the rights from Dr. B, to also place his name to their supplement product.

    Of course though, with out an official response from Dr. B or his rep, on this issue, we could only speculate.

    Then I stated to Chris, that since you know Dr. B personally, it might be prudent to let him know that someone has picked up on all this. Chris’s reply to this was, “I’ve pointed out many a thing and they don’t seem to care or do much about
    it. His website is still promoting products that have been out of production for a year.”

    So all in all, whilst thus far, Dr. B’s patties have shown beneficial results and does not contain K3, I have lost some respect for Dr. B given this latest episode and warranted speculation, and if I don’t end up receiving a response from his company which seems unlikely that I will, then how can I trust his patties any further, given the fact that if his QA and customer service is lacking, then what’s to say that his actual BARF patties production line is also lacking in quality?

  • Carol B

    Hi mike,
    have posted a request on dry dog food, was not sure if this was the correct place so.. here goes again! I have read with intrest feeding dogs raw food, sorry this is not for me.. to much of a risk due to MY HEALTH.
    the problem I have is which dry food would be the best for my 2 year old Northen Inuit Rolo.. last year, from aprox may to august, he had very bad runny poo’s, lots and lots of trips to the vets and meds, in the end we changed the food from technical to barking heads english brands, winter came alls well no runny poos…… this year it started again and about the same time as before ,so of the vets and yet more treatment, they also wanted us to buy their food!! whch we didn’t, poos stopped great, of to the kennels for their hols for 1 week ( sorry we also have a lab cade 5)1 week at home and the poos started again, Cade no probs, we have also noticed he scratches a lot, can not see any skin problems, he’s full of beans & drinking well. I really think it is the food. I gone through lots and lot of info on dry dog food, BUT can not find any that is for an Northen Inuit, is there one ? if not, (I understand you can not give brand names out)I just want to know what to give him, no grain, low carbs, white fish, high in red meat, no rice, raw food !!*** the list goes on and on can you or other help very very confused.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Sandi asks me “Do you really feel I’m not justified in my responses to Gordon?” YES.

    Sandi writes “Gordon also didn’t answer my questions so we can see why the BARF Diet is better than other raw brands. I had no plans to debate it, just show us why he feels it’s so superior to other raw brands. I don’t have a problem if he’s a BARF distributor or a manufacturer . . .”

    Gordon has already stated that he doesn’t work for BARF. You can believe or disbelieve. Just like you can believe or disbelieve that unprocessed raw Real Food is superior dog food than any dog kibble on the planet.

    Gordon says he feeds the BARF Diet, and he often comments about that. He also often comments about the superior quality of most of the 5* raw foods reviewed on DFA; for example – a recent comment by Gordon:
    “Back to BARF. It basically covers most of the top rated raw foods listed here as they’re all pretty much BARF (Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods).”

  • Gordon

    BARF patties contain meats that are completely antibiotic, hormone, and sulphur (sulfur) dioxide free!

    I was refreshing up the Dr. B’s pdf product guide because it’s been a while since I last read it and I wanted to read more about the cat BARF patties, for the cat I recently rescued, and it confirms all meats are as stated above. Also every flavour has more than the one meat protein source as obviously does the combo flavour.

    BARF is actually suitable for many ailing and compromising immune disorders. For example, their is the new BARF combo Lite which is the combo version with less fat and along with the Kangaroo formula which is notably lower in fat, are ideal for dogs with pancreatic problems as well as diabetes etc.

    The guide also specifies and encourages for such disorders and others, that one can add low GI (non starchy veggies and fruits), and mashed in a juicer and added to the kangaroo or combo lite formula’s or any formulas for that matter as well as any other commercial raw brands as this also increases the alkaline (pH) level, that some dogs may otherwise find the natural acidity levels, a little too high.

    Also you can give cats BARF dog patties and vice versa, unlike processed kibbles which are not cross species advisable! That explains why the cat I rescued yesterday, smelt the BARF I was putting out for breakfast for my dogs this morning (well yesterday morning Sydney time as of writing this post), and was salivating over it. This also tells me whoever fed it previously, was feeding it home scraps of raw offcuts and why that cat happily ate the human grade can of sardines I had in the cupboard when I rescued it.

    One of the FAQ’s questions under http://www.barfaustralia.com/faq.php is “Can I feed Dr. B’s BARF Patties to dogs or cats with a health problem?

    The quoted answer is:-

    “Most definitely! In fact, what so many owners continually write, email, phone and tell us, is that most health problems are markedly reduced and many health problems actually disappear altogether following the removal of modern fake industrial foods from their pets’ lives and the adoption of Dr. B’s Genuine Aussie R.A.W. BARF programme of Nutrition.

    With some diseases such as kidney failure or Pancreatitis, a simple modification to the basic formula (such as the addition of extra crushed raw low GI vegetable material) will turn what is already a super healing food into what might now be described as a brilliantly fantastic super healing food! . (For further information, see ‘Modifying Dr. B’s BARF for certain life stages and Diseases’.)”

    Dr. B’s latest product guide can found at http://www.barfaustralia.com/docs/DrBs_ProductGuide2010_HQ.pdf. Even if one doesn’t feed BARF full time or part time like I do (the latter), or for anyone feeding any of the commercial raw brands or for making your home prepared raw feeding, this product guide is a must read! His books do also contain special recipes as does his most famous world renown book, ‘Give Your Dog a Bone’.

  • Gordon

    Not sure where to post the following news, so I thought I’d post it under my favourite dog food thread.

    I rescued a cute flat faced, huge eyed long haired albino cat today. It has a collar and was wondering lost and was hanging around a milk bar with no one laying claim to it and people asking who’s is it? I waited for my hot food order and when I got it, I proceeded to walk out and couldn’t help but feel sorry for the poor little thing. Others were looking at it to and its collar was checked for any name tag to no avail. It was hanging the milk bar because it was hungry and could smell food.

    So anyway, I couldn’t help it and as I saw it eating a cooked potato chip that was lying on the ground, I thought I’d see if it would respond and I said, “Come on, come on, come with me”. To my amasement, it understood and so followed me. You could tell, it was domesticated, and humanised and so I took it in. I think its a British Longhair breed? Anyway, it looks like the breed that the character in the old James Bond movies of the Sean Connery era, of the head of Spectre where you never get to see him, but he always had that cat breed on his lap that he patted when issuing orders to Bond’s villains.

    I had nothing but a can of human grade sardines and water to give it. It ate it with enthusiasm. I plan to take it to the Vet on Monday to have it scanned for a possible micro chip in the hope its owner will be revealed and has legitimately lost it. That way it can go back to its owner, otherwise, I may just settle to keep it myself, to my already collection of 2 dogs and 2 parrots.

  • Casey

    Antonio, I don’t feed 100% raw, but I started my dog on chicken leg quarters, then turkey necks, then pork ribs, and then beef. Most raw feeders recommend going in order of richness.

  • sandy

    I actually started my pugs on raw beef first for 2 reasons. First, I always feared salmonella with chicken, and second they usually share my steak which I cook on the rare side. I started them on it by just offering it as a treat, a few bites a day. I would split one 8 oz patty between the 4 of them a couple times a week and then increased from there. Now they get a full raw meal of beef, chicken, duck, or goose or rabbit probably every 3rd feeding depending on me remembering to take it out of the freezer!

  • Antonio

    Or I should say I haven’t had luck feeding the dogs raw.

  • Antonio

    I actually feed some wild game from time to time, deer prodominently, occasional squirrel and rabbit, but those meats are seasonal. And of course I haven’t had luck w/ Raw so I cook mine and the dog(s) get leftovers from that. I think my friends Schnauzer is very likely going to get chicken though.

  • Jonathan

    Or wild game meats, but that is going a little far for the sake of raw feeding… ;-)

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

    No probs. You can copy and paste it as a quote, Antonio. I hope it works out for him. If not, the least allergic meat source and the most neutral, is usually lamb.

  • Antonio

    Thanks Gordon, hope you don’t mind I pretty much copy/pasted your comment and told him, Chicken seems like the winner. I think he’s going to try wings and leg quarters.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

    Antonio – Either beef flavour or chicken is ok. If you had to choose for a Schnauzer, I would go the chicken to start off with, because of a few reasons. One being raw foods are more acidic and lower in pH so if their dog has been on dry food all this time, a chicken flavour would better suited to start the weening process. This is because beef can sometimes cause the most allergic reaction. Having said that, I feed my dogs who are class 2: terrier dogs, hence small breeds, the combination BARF flavour for multiple protein source reasons, and so far they’re accustomed to this and are thriving. That doesn’t mean all dogs would. So start with chicken flavour first with any raw brand for that matter, I would suggest. The kibble I feed my dogs when alternating with raw, is the Artemis Maximal one so in that, they then only get the chicken meat protein source.

    Unfortunately, unlike raw, Australia, isn’t big on holistic and grain free type kibbles, and we get a choice of only the imported Artemis, Canidae, and Evo (I don’t trust P&G, so they’re out of the question). We did get Orijen but it was withdrawn due to the gamma irradiation debacle back in 2008.

    Anyway, go the chicken over the beef to start with, like for a month or so, to make sure they’ll handle raw OK first off.

    Hope this helps.

  • Antonio

    If a person wanted to feed raw, would raw ground beef be a better choice as oppose to raw chicken? Got a co-worker interested in trying it for his Schnauzer, but this is not my area of expertise so figured I’d asked some of the raw feeders on the board.

  • natalie

    also on the whole raw food worries. we started giving our boys ziwi peak. from what they say it is doesnt have all the possible problems of true raw food but from what they say it is basically like a raw food meal. its airdried so its just looks like you are feeding them jerky.

    our boys go crazy for it, its just like giving them a treat. and there is no problem doing kibble and ziwi peak. i know the other true raw foods always say not to give them kibble and the raw food to close together. we do one day kibble, one day ziwi peak

  • natalie

    thanks babs

    we just threw out a huge box of greenies. its not worth the chance. i read some horrible stuff online.

    not sure what the huge problem was with gordon. i think he gave good advice and liked coming on here to ask him questions. alot of professionals dont like to give advice because if something goes wrong they dont want to be the ones that gave the advice. so it was nice to come on here and ask him a question. i know he is not a licensed pro but he def did a lot of research, whcih is pretty much what a pro would do anyways. but then again i have not been on here that long and could have missed stuff

  • Babs

    Don’t use Greenies!!!!! The wreak havioc with a dogs digestion. I don’t care how much they say they are digestible, they are NOT!! The cat version also messed up my cat. It constipated him for a good two weeks. I finally got him moving with tuna with oil. I actually let him lap up the oil with the tuna. Then I give them the unsweetened pumpkin, because it works for both bowel issues.

  • Jonathan

    Gordon, you use very intentionally inflammatory language. I think you just like to argue for argument’s sake. You have been condescending and rude to me, Mike, and Melissa on several occasions and I have grown tired of just ignoring it. Snarky and accusatory comments are of no help to anyone.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Yeah ok Mr. Sagman. Have it your way. I’m not at all fussed. “Others” who disagree, I take it is Melissa, and not always, but sometimes, Jonathan, you mean? There are plenty that do agree with my advice. My advice is factually based apart from one mistake (“May those who never sinned cast the first stone”) when over exaggerating the flea on dog bedding comment. Other than that, all my advice is based on factually and scientifically proven literature, as I had also publicised here under many threads to which your rebuttal was , “Why am I passionately defending my claims?” I am obviously a threat to you. I have 3 degrees, albeit not related to health nor canine nutrition, I make no apologies for my calling a spade a “spade”.

    My above comment wasn’t intended to be insulting. but now from your last comment, I don’t care if you took it that way.

    You’ve obviously become really defensive unlike any other forum creator I’ve communicated with, and when the tough gets too much, although you haven’t said such to me yet, you no doubt, unwelcome my well informed participation in this forum. Just like you told ed that he was no longer welcome on this forum under the ‘Dry Food and Cleaner Teeth Article’, I’ll save you the time in directly telling me the same thing.

    Now ask yourself where I ever bashed any American or Canadian food quality control methods. It was you who eluded to such. Wake up to yourself. Become more knowledgeable on what the rest of the world thinks of the arrogance you no doubt, as an American representative displayed in our recent exchanges, and in particular, the one directly above.

    I’ll no longer be a knowledge base of threat to you any longer. Don’t worry, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out, lol. Good bye to you sir.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Gordon… Why do you come here daily as a guest from Australia to a dog food website that reviews products sold only in North America to bash our US and Canadian food manufacturing standards? Why do you come here with limited access to American products and yet hang out on our website arrogantly dishing out advice to US and Canadian consumers?

    Just because I (and others) disagree with you does not make us “control freaks”. It’s obvious your last comment was intentionally designed to insult me as well as denigrate American and Canadian food manufacturing practices.

    You are certainly welcome to express your opinion here. But the mean-spirited nature of your last comment is not appreciated.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Yeah, it appears raw food quality control measures are greatly different between the USA and Australia, New Zealand and Europe (Basically almost the rest of the world). I’m amased that, you as a dentist (Ok, you’re not a GP, nutritionist, or microbiologist) insist that you’re an authority on the subject. I amased that you being a dentist, no better educated than my own dentist for that matter, however, a professional in a particular field you are, keep misreading, and misinterpreting what I write. Surely you can read well, and read between the lines, no?

    Where do I ever say, that there are no risks involved in raw feeding? Look, I respect and like you Mike. After all, this is a great and informative site, but I feel you’re too much of a control freak, and you keep taking my comments out of context. I challenged you recently on where I quoted any misrepresentations on facts and as you know, when you attempted to, it came out as a gross misunderstanding. Now I am not of the intention of wanting to embarrass you in any way, shape or form, and respect the fact that this is your website, and for all intents and purposes you may impose censorship and/or edit out some comments like you may or may not have. Nothing I can do to stop that, but I urge you to actually read what I write, and please ask you to stop menacing my remarks for a lack of a better description.

    Am I not advising readers to take sanitary precautions? Are you saying that your readers are below the understanding level of what such sanitary precautions to conduct are? Have I not at times explained what these precautions of activities should be?

    Why are we still arguing this point?

    If you feel so strongly over any misleading communication you think I’m conveying, let’s go over it all step by step in a civil manner between two obviously intelligent people?

    Am I not right when I state the risks of car accidents as one example that carries statistically, a higher risk of occurrence than that of salmonella and such bacterial poisoning? Perhaps it really is because, the USA encounter a much higher rate of such poisoning occurrences? I don’t know, nor do I profess to know. What I do know is, BARF for example has never had a case of recall or any bacterial warning issues nor poisoning what so ever. Our butchers in Australia, are in the practice of utmost hygiene and quality clean raw meats provisions. People here, often buy such meats with utmost confidence and rarely is there ever an issue of bacteria outbreaks or government warnings to suspect culprits, nor media reports of same. And believe you me, our media would be right onto any such issues and stop only at the truth, if not even help themselves, but to exaggerate, on such cases and similar.

    Am I claiming the risks are small? Yes I admit I am. Aren’t they? Well they certainly are in Australia and New Zealand for that matter. Perhaps it’s a case of the laws of probability that in the USA, the risks are actually much higher than Australia and New Zealand given the fact that there is, what, 300,000,000 people in the USA, as in contrast to 22,000,000 in Australia, and 5,000,000 in New Zealand.

    Now, I haven’t clicked on your advertised fact sheet on the subject. Perhaps you’re right in that your compatriot American readers should, and I don’t discourage that. I know that Dr. Ian Billinghurst’s BARF, has sensible warnings displayed on his products, and that such is the magnitude of an animal health care professional, expert and reputation that he is and portrays, would be foolish and an act of gross irresponsibility and unprofessionalism for such a man and his product, to risk his sales and world wide reputation, in allowing his Quality Control to chance any well sealed raw food patty packages, in carrying any dangerous bacterial cultures (Especially given the fact they come frozen and transported in vehicles containing freezers). That doesn’t mean that he or anyone in the same business can guarantee 100% for any raw meats to never harbour the latter, but it is a true fact, that with his Quality Control, such risk is extremely minimal.

    I would rather you have argued what you have in a better and less forceful manner, by way of advertising your fact sheet earlier in our exchanges on this issue, and instead of misreading most of my postings re-read them and acted in a more chivalrous manner, arguing your support of raw foods and politely reminding your readers, despite your support of raw foods for our best friends, that there are risks and to please read your facts sheet, all with out impressing upon other readers that I am misleading same, when nothing could be further from the truth.

    Wouldn’t that be a better way of having handled your concern? I don’t know? Is it just me? Perhaps I’m being too defensive, however from my perspective given all the above, I don’t feel that I am.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Gordon… Once again, I must disagree with your advice to our readers regarding the dangerous link between Salmonella and raw meats of any type. It’s irresponsible for you to label the medically correct actions of those warning against handling raw pet food as “scare mongering”.

    Warning people of the potential dangers of contracting and spreading Salmonella must be a necessary part of any intelligent discussion regarding the feeding of raw pet foods.

    Maybe things are different in Australia, but for the rest of the world, Salmonella is the most common foodborne disease known to Man. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and in an official fact sheet published by the United States Department of Agriculture…

    “Salmonellosis causes an estimated 1.4 million cases of foodborne illness and more than 400 deaths annually in the United States. The Surveillance Report from the Food Diseases Active Surveillance for 2007, identified Salmonella as the most common bacterial infection reported.”

    Health concerns are especially warranted for certain susceptible individuals (like infants and the elderly). That report goes on to caution…

    “Salmonella infections can be life-threatening especially for infants and young children, pregnant women and their unborn babies, and older adults, who are at a higher risk for foodborne illness, as are people with weakened immune systems (such as those with HIV/AIDS, cancer, diabetes, kidney disease, and transplant patients).”

    Like you, I believe raw feeding comes closest to a dog’s natural ancestral diet. However, glossing over these critically important facts (especially when addressing raw feeding newbies) and minimizing the hazards of Salmonella must be considered (at the very least) reckless advice. And a disservice to those seriously considering this beneficial canine diet.

    There’s a lot more to know about salmonellosis prevention than simply to “clean up after any preparations or mess”. As a licensed human healthcare practitioner, I would urge every reader (who elects to feed a raw diet) to follow the recommendations contained in this fact sheet. And to cultivate a healthy respect for the ability of raw meats (especially poultry) to carry this deadly bacteria.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Gina – You’re welcome. I heard that somewhere about kibble and raw isn’t good for dogs, and I think, on this site as well. Put it this way. My dogs are thriving. Also you can feed kibble and give a dog a bone, which is raw, and it won’t affect it just because it ate kibble before it chews on a raw bone. See what I mean. That logic doesn’t make sense.

    Keep in mind that there is a lot of scare mongering about raw, because some feel it has the potential to hurt kibble sales. I beg to differ, because kibble will always be cheaper in price than raw, and most people just can’t afford raw either at all, or all the time. So no matter what, kibble will always make sales.

    With raw dog food, just treat it like anything raw, and remember to clean up after any preparations or mess.

    While some persist with the salmonella risk scare campaign, there is higher risk of you having a car accident, and getting injured, fatally or otherwise. There are millions of accidents and thousands of deaths by car accidents each year, yet the majority of raw feeders have not had one single episode of bacterial food poisoning with themselves or their dogs.

    Is there a risk of bacteria with raw food. Of course there is, just like there is with raw preparations for humans before cooking takes place.

    The rumours about it being a bad thing for dogs health-wise to feed kibble and raw is nonsense and a complete myth.

    And yes you can mix them together safely.

    I feed my dogs raw meaty bones like chicken necks, chicken wings, chicken frames and lamb briskets. Beef briskets are good too, and these are best purchased from quality butchers.

  • Gina

    Gordon, thank you so much for your reply.
    That is a great idea to feed BARF every other day. That sounds way more reasonable. I think I read somewhere that dogs don’t do well, though, eating kibble and raw. Or do they just not do well eating both at the same time, instead of the way you do it? I guess I would just have to try it to find out if my dogs could handle it. It makes me feel better, and willing to try that, knowing that your dogs do fine with it that way.

    Also, what kind of raw meaty bones do you give? I found some chicken and turkey necks that looked good at my pet supply outlet.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Yes Sir. I read a similar quote under your ‘Pig Ears Recalled Due to Possible Salmonella’ article. Scary, isn’t it?

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Gordon… Today, the US Food and Drug Administration announced a recall for pig ears believed to be contaminated with Salmonella. Here’s what that official government document published by “actual” veterinary professionals had to say…

    “Salmonella can affect animals and there is risk to humans from handling contaminated pet products. People handling the recalled pig ears can potentially become infected with Salmonella, especially if they have not thoroughly washed their hands after giving them to their pet.

    “Healthy people infected with Salmonella should monitor themselves for some or all of the following symptoms: nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or bloody diarrhea, abdominal cramping and fever. Rarely, Salmonella can result in more serious ailments, including arterial infections, endocarditis, arthritis, muscle pain, eye irritation and urinary tract symptoms. Consumers exhibiting these signs after having contact with this product should contact their healthcare providers.”

    Your precautionary advice to Natalie in this comment is medically and scientifically appropriate.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Yeah natalie – But just remember, take all necessary sanitary precautions when dealing with raw anything. I have a feeling, this website’s author and some other regular commentators aren’t very appreciative of my confident (maybe seen as cocky) advice.

    SO PLEASE AGAIN, CLEAN UP AFTER ANY RAW FOOD HANDLING. Especially since, I don’t know what regulations are in place in relation to commercial human grade meats. I know that in Australia, such regulations are stringent and of the utmost scrutiny.

    And when in doubt about any thing pet related, your best source is an actual professional….An actual Veterinarian, albeit, a natural, holistic advocating one.

  • natalie

    “More so for politics, Green Peace, and even snots, lol.”

    hahaha.

    you are right. they love the greenies but they love freeze dried meat as well. they probably like the greenie a little more because it takes a while to chew. we are going to get some raw bones next week so they should love that

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    k makely – Whilst your comment is true, it would be better served under one of the 1 to 2 star food threads. This is not the case with BARF. Nor does it use any anonymous meat terms in its ingredients lists.

    The other great thing about BARF, unlike most kibble bags, including the quality grain free ones, is that it displays a Typical Analysis table as opposed to “Guaranteed Analysis”, and it also specifies the average Dry Matter Basis percentages of the nutrients in brackets adjacent the crude percentages, which is also unlike the top drawer kibbles, which only display the crude percentages.

    Another tell tale sign of the integrity of BARF.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    natalie – Actually, us Australians do sometimes use the term “greenies”, but not in relation to doggy treats. More so for politics, Green Peace, and even snots, lol.

    You’re better off reading the ingredients list of “Greenies”, and avoid it, if it states by-products, meat meals/liver (unspecified) and anything artificial, like colours and preservatives, and of course, any grains.

    Alternatively, why not buy air dried beef liver or lamb crumbles for doggy treats. Dogs love these and they’re 100% natural containing high protein and vitamins like A and the B types such as thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, pyridoxine, and cobalamin. All good high end boutique style pet shops should have these.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Gina – Sounds about right. Put it this way. The box says to feed anywhere from 2 to 5% of the dog’s body weight, depending on its activity levels. It sounds like your dogs would need 5% each day for each dog.

    So the Border Collie pup weighing 11.34 kg (25lbs) and the Labrador weighing 22.68 kg (50lbs), and each patty weighing at approximately 227 g (8oz), means you would require approximately 4.68 cases/bags (12 patties in each) per month at a cost I calculated to be $566.14 for every 30 days, based on Barfworld’s prices for the combination formula as an example.

    With out using their calculator, the following is how I calculated the above:-

    5% of Border Collie Pup’s weight = 0.567kg (567g or 20oz)

    5% of Labrador’s weight = 1.134kg (1,134g or 40oz)

    That equals 1.701kg (1,701g or 60oz) of BARF per day

    1.701kg (1,701g or 60oz) x 30 days (Average month) = 51.03kg (1800oz or 112.5lbs)

    51.03kg (1800oz or 112.5lbs) / 227g (8oz) patty = 224.8 patties

    So in Barfworld’s offer of for the combo flavour, being US$120.97 for 4 cases which contains 48 patties, I further calculate:-

    224.8 patties / 48 patties = 4.68 cases required in 30 days

    So 4.68 cases x US$120.97 = US$566.14 for your dogs per average month.

    That’s astoundingly expensive and your amasement is understandable and warranted.

    What I do, is feed my 2 dogs (Both around 8kg {17.6lbs} each, BARF every second morning at half their daily allowance, and for every dinner a quality grain free kibble + every alternative morning.

    The half of the recommended daily allowance of BARF for both my dogs = 1 patty. The reason why I feed them half the daily allowance is because they get dinner, being kibble to equate to the kibble’s half day allowance, if that makes sense for you? The alternate day, they get kibble for breakfast and dinner equating to the kibble’s full day’s allowance.

    In addition to the above, I give my dogs raw meaty bones after dinner and as the last snack of the day to increase their raw intake to supplement my BARF (Every 2nd morning) feeding regime, and to help clean their teeth. This way they still get BARF albeit less than I’d prefer (because of the cost).

    In Australia 4 x cases of 12 patty BARF would cost me AU$94.88 for the combo flavour.

    By the same token, the imported kibble from the US, being Artemis Maximal that is the main kibble I feed my dogs, costs me AU$119.00 for a 13.6kg (30lb) bag. Where this would cost you and your fellow Americans, around US$50.00 to US$60.00 for the same amount.

    It’s all about considering your budget and weighing up or compromising your expenses with the well being of yourself and family members including your pets.

  • k makely

    Additionally, be sure to look at the label.. if it just says “meat” or “meat by-products” you could be feeding rendered dogs and cats from the pound after they are killed to your pets…… they do that you know.

  • Gina

    Can someone tell me if I am doing this right?! So, for me to feed my approx. 25lb 5 month Border Collie puppy, and 50lb 5yr Lab, it would cost me $530.00 a month to feed BARF. I used the calculator on http://www.barfproducts.com/ and I calculated it at 4% of their body weight. We walk 1-2 miles a day and about an hour of playing fetch. It came out saying my Lab needs 5 patties a day, and the puppy 2 a day. So, if I got the Variety Pack I would need four of those a month, at $120.00 each plus the $25.00 for 2 cases twice a month. Is this right? Do people actually pay this much for dog food? No offense if you do, I’m just very curious.

  • natalie

    wow i just read stuff saying dogs have died from greenies, but all of this info was from 2005 and 2006. i guess the greenie is not easily digested and some have choked on it. but nothing new, all from 05-06.

  • natalie

    oh yeah sorry, haha. they are really popular around here. they are a treat. they are supposed to help cleath their teeth. dogs go crazy for them. wow i found a question you cant answer or give good advice.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    natalie – I’m not sure what you mean by greenies? Do you mean green vegetables like spinach and kale? Or is “greenies” an American colloquial term describing some type of textured food source (I’m not sure what)? Could you elaborate? Remember, I’m from Australia and we might term some things differently.

  • natalie

    gordon what are your thoughts on greenies?

    do you think they are good for the dog? the texture seems strange. we give our pups one like every other day. we also got the blue buffalo kind and they look better

  • Gordon

    I forgot to mention, that there will always be some ash in even raw foods because of the minerals from grounded bone inclusion.

  • Gordon

    I just noticed after all this time, that the BARF label on the actual box also contains the Typical Analysis (As opposed to the “Guaranteed” wording) with the Dry Matter Based percentages in brackets adjacent the respective crude percentages. Although the figures differ to Mike’s figures from his explanation of the simple arithmetic of calculating Dry Matter Basis. I guess “Typical” being more of a average than advertising guaranteed figures. This could also be because of the fact that raw, being unprocessed is in general less accurate than a controlled environment in processing kibble and canned foods, and therefore ash I would of thought, would be less present in raw foods (Probably less than 8% anyway).

  • Gordon

    Mike P – Yes superior or otherwise kibble is cheaper than the superior raw foods’ counterparts and is what governs my economical decision in alternating between the 2. But superior grain free holistic kibble is by far lesser of evils from the big marketed trash kibble brands we all know about.

  • Gordon

    @ what Susan stated on 25 April – some points that I agree on, in addition to my reply earlier whether supportive or not.

    It is true that buying raw meaty bones such as drumsticks from your local supermarket may not be as healthy as it’s cracked up to be, as to be fair on what Susan stated – and that is, they and similar most likely have added hormones and chemicals in them. Although one major supermarket down under now claims that all their raw meats are hormone free. I’m still skeptical, and will still only buy various raw meaty bones from butchers’ stores as most are unlikely to have added hormones and chemicals in them, not to mention that I find such meats are cheaper in price than buying the same at any supermarket. At least, this is the case in Australia.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Why the fear in handling raw food for your dog? Use the same sanitary precautions and common sense that you use when handling your own food. This subject isn’t Rocket Science. Preparing and eating food isn’t difficult. With all the worry, it’s amazing we humans function at the grocery store and in our own kitchen.
    Lucked out today at the meat counter in my organic grocery store – 10# of turkey necks and organs for $3.90 (39 cents per pound!).
    Went food shopping; took my insulated shopping bag with a few ice packs; packed the cold stuff, including the turkey necks, in the insulated bag; drove home; unwrapped the meat; put a turkey neck and organs in my dog’s outdoor bowl; put the remaining meat in a storage container in my refrigerator; washed the dog bowl; washed my hands; remaining meat will be used within 2 days. What’s difficult here?

  • Jonathan

    I defend raw feeding to an extent, too Mike P. But you know I feed kibble.

  • Mike P

    Ok Raw Foodies We get it…Raw solves all the world problems . Raw is the best hands down ,so why do you have to defend raw as much as you freaks do ? It’s just alot of people will not do Raw for any number of reasons , and we try to find a kibble that is good. When someone try’s to find a kibble , raw foodies shoot it down . This is turning into ( what Jonathan ) said sounds like a bunch of fanatics on raw feeding . Look , most people life busy lives and want to dip into a healthy food to feed their dog . We like easy and we want to feed our pets well . Bottom line…Kibble is much more affordable than feeding the superior raw foods .Ask Gordo

  • Gordon

    I think Susan’s done a runner. I wish people would stick around and further back their arguments, instead of leaving one long essay, then disappearing, lol.

  • Gordon

    Again, Jonathan, its the best dog food on the planet generally speaking, lol (Not that you’re disputing this). And yes it does contain all those veggies, hence we’re too late. It seems Sara has left and now won’t go with BARF because she thinks it contains only 2 or 5% fibre. I don’t think she even read the “add extra fibre” suggestions.

  • Jonathan

    Susan, you say…

    “Some raw meat and a handful of peas, carrots or sweet potato doesn’t make the meal balanced or nutritional for your dog.”

    Really? So, before big companies were manufacturing dog kibble, how ever did dogs survive? You know, people have substantial vitamin and mineral needs, yet we are allowed to just pick our foods… gosh, how do we live day to day without a baked nutrient pellet replacing our meals?? Lol. There is NO WAY a baked meat-flavored pellet can be better than the whole foods it’s made from. Just sayin. :-)

  • Jonathan

    broccoli, celery, spinach, and carrots all contain significant amounts of fiber, so the 5% (or 17.9% of dry matter) isn’t that suprising, I guess. :-)

  • Gordon

    Well there you go then Sara. No need to add any extra fibre to BARF. It contains 17.9% fibre. more than 16.4%.

  • Gordon

    Susan – I don’t know about others. I can really only speak for myself, but I would think that most people would use some common sense in handling any type of raw foods (Bacteria thrives on moisture). I know I do, take precautions and wipe down my bench tops and pets’ bowls.

    In fact Dr. Billinghurst (Not Billingsley, lol), provides warnings on his boxes of taking these very precautions we’re talking about.

    I mean, why wouldn’t people clean up after themselves and areas where food preparations took place. Like I said, I would think it’s just common sense.

    Kibble can never match the quality of raw food full stop (period). Forget irradiation – just making kibble requires cooking to heating levels of at least 55 degrees celcius. Even this is enough in killing off or dramatically reducing the biological and nutritional values contained in kibble formulas (Doggy biscuits).

    Besides, bacterial issues arising from raw foods and the preparation of same is potentially more harmful to us humans than dogs. Dogs are much better equipped immune-wise in handling and combating bacteria than we humans are.

    Do you think we humans can raid the rubbish bin, eating anything in same that’s physically edible, with out suffering food/stomach poisoning? I doubt it. Dogs generally, however can comfortably get away with out any form of poisoning. The operative word being ‘generally’, as opposed to unusual, allergic, or isolated cases.

    Now don’t get me wrong. I do like some of the high quality kibbles available. After all I my dogs’ coats dramatically improved after switching them to Artemis Maximal, from Purina Pro Plan, well before I started to feed them BARF.

  • Jonathan

    Mike, how is the total “carbs” less than the total fiber? I thought you added the fiber in with the carbs. That was my question.

  • Jonathan

    Gordon, the calculation does not “turn BARF into kibble”. Kibble is 10% moisture. BARF is 68% moisture. To accurately compare the two, the moisture must be eliminated from BOTH. The resulting percents are of the dry matter only. I don’t know how else to explain this. There is nothing wrong with this math… and it’s not really disputable anyways. lol! It’s just a simple mathematical way to eliminate the moisture from two products with different moisture percentages so you can accurately compare them.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Everyone… The crude fiber reading of 17.9% (dry matter) is correct based upon the company’s reported “as fed” fiber content of 5%. With 72% moisture, dry matter solids total 28% of the product. 5/28 = 17.9%. If there’s an error here, it’s BARF over reporting the fiber content of this food.

  • Susan

    @Zander – your vet has every reason to be concerned about raw diets for dogs. The Sun and the Moon don’t set on Billingsley or his BARF diet. There is absolutely no direct evidence that a BARF or RAW diet is a direct link to longevity. In fact, a raw diet can be quite dangerous or even deadly unless you know exactly what you’re doing in both the nutritional context as well as how you handle the hygeinic aspect of raw feeding. The reason most vets discount the raw diet is two-fold.

    Firstly, most people haven’t a clue as to what is adequate for their pets needs in terms of nutrition. Some raw meat and a handful of peas, carrots or sweet potato doesn’t make the meal balanced or nutritional for your dog. How do you know the fiber content, or even how do you know if the vegetables you’re adding aren’t toxic to dogs or if they contain chemicals?

    There are some who believe that a 100% meat-only diet is perfectly healthy and I disagree. Dogs are not carnivores and one can see this in the wild. Wolves and pack dog species will first devour the stomach and the entrails of an animal immediately after the kill. Why? Because there are bits of grass, seeds and other vegetable matter that are important to a balanced diet. Wild dogs/wolves will next eat the organ meats because of special nutrients and enzymes that is found only in the kidney, liver, heart, lung, etc.

    Second, some people don’t realize just how scary handling raw meat can be. They take very few precautions cleaning their pets dishes after each meal or making certain working counters are wiped down and disinfected.

    Third, people think that the family pack of chicken drumsticks from Safeway is just fine for your dog and it is not! The chicken you get from the supermarket, unless marked organic or raised naturally, is loaded with hormones and other chemicals. Do you really want your dog to have a daily diet of that? Longevity factors go right out the window. Many of these growth hormones are linked to cancers and other diseases.

    There are a number of different kibble brands which are quite good. Don’t rule them out. Do your research and talk to a Vet nutritionist.. your regular vet most likely has no additional education in nutrition other than what is taught at Vet School.. a vet who specializes in nutrition can be extremely helpful to put your dog on the right path.

    And before any pro BARF or raw advocates try and challenge my opinion, I have fed raw for many years and while it may work for me, I don’t recommend it for everyone without a consultation with a professional animal nutritionist. There are too many things that can go wrong. There are some raw complete foods on the market.. like Nature’s Variety. If you want a raw diet for your dogs, great.. but be smart about it and use experts in the field to guide you.

  • Gordon

    That was meant to read, “That’s assuming we CONVERT BARF into kibble”.

  • Gordon

    Jonathan – That’s assuming we confirm BARF into kibble. In its natural state and eaten in its natural state as it is, those calculations are unrealistic.

    Anyway, I don’t want to argue this point any further, unless I know exactly what I’m talking about. In my own research, I’m yet to get to the idea of calculating the theoretical protein vs fibre vs carbohydrates actual percentages.

    Those calculations that Mike explains in his articles are based on references I’ve briefed through myself, but not yet gone in depth with.

  • Jonathan

    Oh, that also helps estimate the carbs. which for the above would be about 21.73% (assuming 7% ash).

  • Jonathan

    That was for the BARF Combo (Beef, Lamb, Pork, Chicken) Patties.

  • Jonathan

    Gordon, all dry matter means is calculating out the moisture of the food. Here is the GA for BARF…

    Crude Protein minimum 13.5%
    Crude Fat minimum 11.0%
    Crude Fiber maximum 5.0%
    Moisture maximum 68.0%

    SO… in order to get to the “true” protein, fat, etc, we have to mathematically eliminate the moisture.

    you would get …

    Protien 42.18%
    fat 29.09%
    fiber 15.62%

  • Gordon

    I’m going by its stated crude estimate. And the definition of ‘crude’ refers to its unprocessed and natural state, of which BARF is, exactly that.

  • Jonathan

    Gordon, you do have to take into account that they may be reporting, as this site does, the “dry matter” fiber.

  • Gordon

    Yeah, the fibre crude minimum is at 2%. So even lower than 5%. At least that’s what the box of BARF patties states. I have it on hand.

    Anyway Sara I just posted a reply under the Hills one where we first traded comments. If you don’t check it, just go here. It may be of help. http://thepossiblecanine.wordpress.com/

  • Jonathan

    Yeah, that 17.9% must be simply a typing error, as the total carb content is only 13%.

  • Sara

    Just spoke to BARF. The fiber content is 5% not 17.9% as listed above. Wish it were true since I am looking for a good, high fiber food but it’s not accurate.

  • KEN GROSSMAN

    For those of you who live in Jupiter (Florida) this product is sold at HealthepetsMarket located at 155 Toney Penna Drive (just west of A1A next to Angelo’s) I recently switched from Primal which I found too expensive, to BARF which I found to be just as good in quality but more afordable. My Great Dane loves it.

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  • Gordon

    Hi Mike P – You make a good point and yes, I think that kibble if continued to be made with the holistic and grain and byproduct free approach by the alternative companies as opposed to the conventional Hills, Iams, Mars, Purina, P&G etc rubbish that – let’s face it – the majority of world wide dog and cat owners for that matter, unfortunately buy, then our dogs can still live longer and healthier lives. I just believe the appropriately ratio’d and formulated raw foods are just that much better because of thousands of years of evidence.

    Having said that, I still do feed kibble such as Artemis and my dogs have shown improvement from it even before I started alternating their meals with BARF, so I am personally still in favour of quality kibble second to BARF. However, I’m in the hunt for another similar quality kibble available in Australia that’s around the same price tag and not made by the same source manufacturers as Artemis, because Artemis suck in their customer relations.

    Yes I know P&G do provide Evo grain kibble free thanks to their purchase of Innova, but I personally wouldn’t trust P&G, and despite any promises of no formula changes or ingredients sourcing, or external scrutineers monitoring, I think that profit only driven corporations can, will, and do circumvent their lies in order to appear above board, no matter what it takes, in the name of money, and money only. Sound cynical? I am cynical and very weary of such corporations.

  • Mike P

    The 26 year old terrior in louisianna has eaten kibbles and bits his entire life . I wish the raw feeders would stop saying that raw will let dogs live that much longer . The big picture here is that we all agree that better nutrition will allow dogs to live a better quality of life, not a much longer one . Google Max the oldest dog . People just feed the best quality you can afford and love em while they are here .

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Gordon… Please see my response to your question on the Canidae Grain Free Pure article.

  • Gordon

    Hi Christyn – Mike Sagman answered your question correctly. I’m sorry I didn’t read your question earlier but I’m just an occasional visitor and commenter here offering his 2 cents worth from time to time. This is Mike’s website and he responds much quicker.

    Hi zander – Your Vet’s advice about raw foods in general couldn’t be further from the truth. Dr. Billinghurst is a Vet and his BARF formulas are based on thousands of years of nature’s proven results. Most Vets just like the marketers of the huge profit driven dog food manufacturing companies will use every smear campaign tactic in the book to discredit raw foods like BARF. I have so much more to say and I don’t have time right now, but I will return with so much evidence from sources and references that prove BARF as simply the best on the market for any dog of any life stage. I will soon take up many pages of written discourse providing many references of truths available. But for now just in passing – there have been studies that have proven a dog’s real life span can reach up to 27 years of age on raw foods. BARF is specially formulated by the Vet mentioned above using his educated science and knowledge to formulate the correct balance ratio of meat to equivalent semi digested veggies and fruits from tripe that dogs would naturally indulge from a kill in the stomachs of their prey.

    Hi Bev Thomas – Garlic has been attributed with humans and other mammals such as dogs to aid in better digestion and actually helps prolong life and combat many ailments. In France the famous French Paradox of red wines in moderation has been attributed to the French peoples’ long and healthy lives just like the Russian farmers who live beyond a century due to many claiming to actually eat raw garlic with a glass of fresh cows’ milk every day! I personally couldn’t do that but I believe them. Perhaps that’s the Russian Paradox.

    Also ShamelessRawFoodie has made many valid points and provided great references. Thumbs up from me.

    Bev Thomas – Also regarding bacteria – dogs and cats for that matter are much better equipped in combating bacteria than us humans. It’s hardly a problem for them as even their saliva have shown in some valid studies, that same actually kills bad bacteria on contact. That’s why mother dogs instinctively lick all over their pups’ bodies to cover same with the mothers’ protective saliva coating to combat the nasties that pups may be otherwise be contaminated with. A particular 1990 university study (can’t remember the actual university but it was in the US) had shown the benefits of the dog’s saliva as being able to kill off nasty bacteria. Another case study I read some time ago, showed that a man’s gangrene ridden leg was saved by his dog’s consistent licking of the leg which was attributed in doing mainly 2 things – 1. being helping due to the dog’s saliva healing properties and 2. being the constant encouragement of blood circulation to the man’s infected leg. Now this doesn’t mean that you’re going to be safe or less likely to be effected in anyway from your dog licking your face after raiding the rubbish bin. But I’m able to avoid my dogs from doing this. Can’t everybody? Also, shouldn’t we all be feeding our dogs raw bones from the butchers as the last meal or snack of the day, benefiting our dogs in a number of ways. Firstly by way dental hygiene, cleaning their teeth the natural way whilst they enjoy what nature had intended, not to mention the protein and phosphorus they also get from raw bones.

    There is another source or reference I will soon post here when I could be bothered, that speaks about raw bones and its benefits and how just truly naturally digestible they actually are for dogs.

    Dr. Billinghurst’s BARF, I can not praise enough. It has gone the extra mile in that it has actually healed one of my dog’s grass allergy problems. Whilst Dr. Billinghurst is not in anyway a fan of cooked foods for dogs that the end results in it becoming dry foods, I am still also impressed with some of these grain free holistic kibbles on the market. After all, Artemis Maximal being one of them, prior to me having found and fed BARF, did actually improve the health of my dogs’ coats. However even Artemis Australia in, now, addition to Artemis ‘Ask a Vet’ form from the Artemis US HQ website, is failing to answer some of my questions. For this reason I am in a phase of switching this kibble to perhaps Canidae which I can also get in Australia (I feed both BARF and grain free kibble due to convenience and finances, otherwise if my latter was in better shape, I would only use BARF).

    Do you Mike, or anyone else for that matter, know if Canidae, like Artemis and Taste of the Wild, is made by Diamond Pet in the US?

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Shameless and All… Gosh, I hate to muddy the waters here. However, even though I’m a huge fan of raw diets, we have to be fair to the other side of this story, too.

    Some bacteria are certainly not harmless and notably more pathogenic (able to cause disease) than others. Salmonella would be a good example. If you suspect a food is possibly tainted with this bacteria, and even though Salmonella might be harmless to your pet, there’s always a need to exercise caution and prudence when handling any raw meat (for humans or dogs).

    So, as much as you or I might enjoy exchanging kisses with our dogs, we all should be a bit hesitant to do so when feeding a raw diet.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    About a dog’s mouth bacteria – here is another vet quoted in a news article
    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1213870
    Excerpts:
    Pooches Mouths Are Dirty, but They’re Safe to Kiss Oct. 14, 2005
    To find out just who has a cleaner mouth, we asked veterinarian and fellow dog lover Marty Becker, author of “Chicken Soup for the Dog Owner’s Soul,” to offer his opinion.
    “They raid the garbage can. You know, we give each other a peck on the cheek when we say hello, they give each other a peck on the rear end,” said Becker
    If you want to give your pooch a kiss, it may be safer than kissing another human.
    Becker says many of the bacteria in the mouth of a dog are species specific, so it won’t harm its owner.
    “So a staph or a strep for a human is not transmissible to a dog, if you were to kiss it, and vice versa,” said Becker.
    Bottom line — you’re more likely to get a serious illness from kissing a person than kissing a dog.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Bev – You can certainly wipe your dog’s face and paws. But as far as bacteria worries, just think about what is on your dog’s face and paws after your dog licks her butt area.
    A week ago I commented in response to an identical question on another thread on this website. This is what I wrote:
    If you’re worried about bacterial contamination from your dogs if they eat raw food, just think of all the bacteria they transfer to you (with their wet kisses) from what they trek in from outdoors – assuming your dogs go outdoors.
    Here’s a quote from a 2009 article on Veterinarian Karen Becker’s website:
    http://www.naturalpetproductions.net/articles/npp.freshfood.pdf
    Dogs and cats live in a bacterial world. Your dog goes out for a short walk in your garden. She absorbs just a few grams of soil, and then comes in and licks her pads. In those two grams of soil, there were probably billions of bacteria of hundreds of different species, some friendly and some not. Consumption of bacteria is natural for dogs and cats.
    Commercial raw diets have been on the market for more than 20 years. Combined, the raw diet manufacturers have fed more than 100,000 dogs without a single documented death due to bacterial problems.
    http://www.naturalpetproductions.net/articles/npp.freshfood.pdf

  • Bev Thomas

    How do you deal with feeding RAW and and contamination that may be on the dogs mouth, and also they lick there face and paws. I want to feed RAW but dont want salmonella or bacteria all over the house from the dog rubbing her face on my bedspread, carpet etc., after she eats. Also, my elderly mother pets her all the time and kisses on her. Thank you for all your answers.

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Bev – In moderation, garlic, cayenne pepper, tumeric and other herbs and spices are desirable ingredients for digestive health, inflammation reduction, and overall boosting of the immune system.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Bev… Don’t be too concerned about garlic. Most experts praise garlic for its benefits. The stories you’ve heard about this ingredient never seem to take into account the massive doses of garlic required for it to become toxic.

  • Bev Thomas

    Why does BARF Juicy Chicken Recipe (Raw Dog Food) contain garlic and especially cayenne pepper? Just when I find a dog food that sounds good enough to try, I am heartbroken to find the ingredients include things that should most likely never be fed to a dog or any animal.

  • Mike P

    zander this is only an opinion …I’m sure lots of people did not do the proper research for feeding raw and ran into problems . The raw food sold at pet stores are formulated with balanced nutrition hence the very high price tag . If you want to feed raw you should probably go in that direction . I believe the problem is when people just wing it and throw anything raw at their dog on the lawn in the backyard. I’m to stupid to try and cook for my dog and would screw things up if I tried it . I’m sticking to the lesser 5 star cans and kibble for that reason . Be careful zander , anything negative said about raw will get you bashed by the raw fanatics . They are very passionate about the way they feed . This is the greatest site on these topics and I’ve come to respect everyones opinions , and this is just mine . I hope you find the right direction for you and your dog . Don’t feel guilty if you decide on good kibble and or canned food. The mission of this site is to help people feed dogs BETTER than we did in the past . That has helped me and mine 100 %..good luck

  • zander

    I started feeding raw to my 1 year old siberian husky rescue after she stole raw chicken from the dog sitters’ pups bowl while boarding at there house. She loved the raw chicken and i started giving it to her myself but then a week later got a terrible case of diarreaha and the vet said raw is the worst thing to come out and is killling many dogs (perferated intestines from raw bone and bacteria etc) not to mention they can’t get total nutrition form just meat. I got scared and switched back to blue buffalo. Has anyone else gone away from raw. I’m afraid this is a fad and dangerous. Also it makes no sense to say it is a better “natural” diet since animals in the wild (wolves) live very short lives compared with domestic dogs fed dog food. Ex:Some wild wolves do live to be 9 or 10, and there are verified records of a few living into their early teens (wolf.org). Opinions please!

  • Christyn

    Yippy! Thanks Mike! :)

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Christyn… According to the company, BARF meets AAFCO profiles for all life stages. You should be OK for puppies.

  • Christyn

    Hey Gordon and Mike,

    2 weeks ago I bought 2 Miniature Pinscher puppies. They are now 3 months old. They were being fed Purina for Puppies or something awful like that. I had switched them to AvoDerm and they eat it, but not nearly enough (they are also under weight). I just tried giving them some extra lean turkey meat last night mixed with some cottage cheese and butternut squash and they LOVED it. I have never seen them lick their bowls clean!

    I now want to transition to BARF or something like it, but I’ve heard that it might not be so good for puppies under 6-8 months? I’m a complete believer in giving them what is most natural to their breed (i.e. mini pins would never eat fish..so I stay away from it). Any info either of you might have on puppies and the BARF diet would be most appreciated :)

  • Gordon

    Thanks for your response Mike. Don’t get me wrong. I appreciate your website and analysis covering as many commercially available dog foods on the market. Keep up the good work as I’ve read many of your writings on this website related to various dog foods, and I agree with quite a lot of it. However, kibble in general because it is dry, has been cooked and therefore can never be as beneficial to a dog’s overall health as what dogs’ naturally intended food was meant to be.

    Having said this, you’re right that many won’t be swayed from kibble and feed raw foods, and many of those in this group, sadly aren’t swayed because of the convenience factor, but rather because they’ve been wrongly convinced that kibble was designed because it is actually better. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This being, thanks to years of corporate marketing and advertising, having brain-washed not only just normal consumers like you and I, but even most Vets because these marketing gurus are permitted to lecture such at universities before they become Vets, ergo once Vets they, whilst good animal loving people, spread the words and lies orchestrated by these marketing gurus, to their clients, in believing that most kibbles, in particular, Science Diet, Royal Canin, Purina Pro Plan, Eukanaba, etc (the most advertised because of being the most financially wealthiest from the companies they come from), are the best foods for our dogs, when this couldn’t be further from the truth!

    It is a fact that the average life span of domestic dogs have been shortened to say that over such, prior to early 20th century. With out sounding like a cliche – Not to mention that the average Vet visits and bills over the average life of a domestic dog, has increased! It’s become an unfortunate hand-in-hand cycle, only benefiting these huge kibble manufacturing profit driven companies and unwittingly, most Vets.

    The other day when I bought a box of 12 patties BARF from a pet store, I got into a friendly conversation with a pet store assistant working in the frozen food section. He admitted that BARF is amongst the best dog foods ever, but still feeds his dog Royal Canin, citing advise given that it’s the best kibble available. What a LOAD of rubbish! I felt pity for his dog, but as I’m not the type of person to get into an hostile argument, and the fact that he has work to do, I politely disagreed with him and pointed out a few facts disputing his advice.

    Having said the above, there are obviously lesser of evils in kibble. After all, despite Artemis’s lack of satisfying customer relations, my dogs’ health have benefited from Artemis Maximal and my 9 month old Tenterfield Terrier, from Artemis Small Breed Puppy mix. I also believe ZiwiPeak air-dried food as a higher quality kibble and there are a few others of similar grade that are also grain free which your website covers, that are lesser of evils compared to the better marketed but crappier kibble already mentioned.

    I love your unbiased website, and mostly factual information, and hope you continue to maintain and update it, and stay open minded. More people need to be aware of the facts and should not only read the ingredients listing, but attempt to understand each and how each can effect dogs’ health, both positively and negatively.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Gordon… BARF has received 5-stars here. And you have every right to feed this food. But there are others who will never feed a raw diet. And for those, there are kibbles and canned foods. I’m no fan of kibble either. But it is a dominant force of modern life all over the world. So, we choose to help users recognize its vast differences.

  • Gordon

    Hi again. I don’t know whether anyone will read my often detailed comments, but here goes.

    After further research and my own meticulous studies and scrutinies of most ingredients used in dog food as well as methods used to make them, I am now leaning towards, and have started feeding my dogs BARF dog food. This comes frozen and I get it from a physical pet store in Sydney Australia. It is created and manufactured by Vet, Dr. Ian Billinghurst in Bathurst, NSW, Australia, and from all my own research, I believe it to be the best commercially made dog food on the planet! ZiwiPeak canned dog food comes in second. Artemis Maximal is still my favourite kibble, but Artemis ‘Ask a Vet’ from Artemis US website are too slow and in some cases don’t reply to any inquiries. (Having said this, Artemis Australia, importers in Melbourne, of Artemis into Australia, do seem to respond to inquiries). Artemis has also been cleared out of some pet food dealers’ shelves in Sydney as they’ve claimed it to be a poor seller. It could have something to do with Artemis’s lack of response to customer inquiries as well as poor marketing. I have read other comments from other sites that have also complained about their lack of response to customers. Whilst I now currently feed my dogs Artemis Maximal and now BARF, along with raw bones, I am now considering taking Artemis out of the equation entirely, and sticking to BARF. BARF truly mimics (No – actually is all natural formula serving dogs with what they truly eat such as tripe in the wild after a kill or scavenge along with real named meats, veggies, fruits, eggs etc. Simply the best there is! ZiwiPeak whilst number 2, is more expensive, and as far as I’m concerned loses out!

    Kibble, although several top brands including Artemis, are rated high here and on other websites, is still kibble, being dry food and therefore cooked regardless of whether they’re grain free, use no byproducts, are chelated, have named meats and meat meals etc, should not be rated high, due to the fact that they’re cooked! The bottom line is that dogs, including cats for that matter were never intended by nature to eat cooked meals and worse kibble (like biscuits). You can’t beat raw foods, and unless you put in the time and effort in making your own all fresh and raw food for your dogs, you can’t go past BARF.

    I’m no longer a believer in kibble, no matter how claimed the quality may be, full stop. Or as you Americans say, “Period”.

    Mike, I would be interested in what you have to say about dog food being cooked, hence being dry dog food. Surely it really can not be compared to raw foods!

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Marie… Raw dog foods should be handled with the same precautions you use to handle any raw grocery store meat. Parasites aren’t usually an issue but bacterial contamination with Salmonella or E. coli can be.

  • Marie

    Are raw meat safe in terms of presence or absence of parasites? I read somewhere a long time ago that raw meat consumption makes dogs more aggressive.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Alex… Many people do make their own dog food. However, since there’s more to know than just “chicken and vegetables”, I can’t possibly assure you your puppy would get the same benefits.

  • alex

    it may even be cheaper to make this yourself! would my puppy get the same benefits if i were to feed her fresh chicken and veggies? thanks!

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Glenn… Without suggestions like yours, it’s hard to find good subjects for our reviews. Really like this product. Thanks again for the tip.

  • Jonathan

    Wow… I checked that website out. This is certainly a great food, but it would cost me about $300 a month to feed it to my lab. :-/

  • Glenn

    By the way, I am not sure that you can buy this in a store. I get mine at http://www.barfworld.com

  • Glenn

    Thank you for reviewing this product Mike! I sent you an e-mail and asked you about it 2 weeks or so ago and you responded quickly! Your site is very infomative and I appreciate the time that you take to answer questions to ensure that we give our beloved pets the nutrition and quality of life that they so very much deserve! I have found this product to be wonderful for my dogs coat and energy level. They both are more playful than they were on Iams or Eukanuba! My older dog has even stopped his incessant itching! I feed them the Juicy Chicken and they think it’s a treat, not an actual meal. They enjoy every bite. Thank you for your reviewing this product. I would recommend it to all that are thinking about trying it.