BARF Dog Food (Raw Frozen)

Couldn’t agree more. It’s heart warming when I read fellow dog owners feed the right type of raw diet and proportion to their dogs. But, I’ll occasionally feed my dogs a frozen BARF patty as a very infrequent special treat during a hot day. Not this BARF brand though because I don’t want to contribute to Dr. Billinghurst’s Royalties. I’ll use another BARF product as that infrequent treat.

There are no added probiotics in this food. I don’t think I know of any frozen raw food with added probiotics. I feed raw and my dogs get kefir and raw green tripe several times per week – both are rich in naturally occurring probiotics. You could also supplement with probiotics if you feel it’s something your dog needs.

My dogs hate it, good thing I bought the trial package of four.
They eat Blue canned & grain free dry

We have been feeding our border collie BARF now for approx 7 years and he is now 12. We have changed the way we do things over the years. Originally we minced all his liver and veges and added to the mince etc. Due to convenience we now use lean mince, heaps of frozen veges, garlic, ginger, spoon curry powder, splash soy sauce, flax seed oil, kelp powder, chicken necks and he gets couple of bones per week. He is really healthy with no weight problems. I totally recommend it and would never feed any future dog tin food etc.

Good point!  I dont care bout the vacuuming but if I had even one of his/her dogs, I couldnt’ feed Darwins or The Honest Kitchen

Wow, two BMD’s and a Leo? I am jealous! 

I feed raw bones and meat, not processed patties. My dogs 2 bernese and a leo all have great health, soft beautiful coat, white teeth, and smell great. I recommend raw for diabetes, kidney liver issue(depending on protein allowed) obese, and overall the best health Ive seen in my dogs in 25 years with top of the line kibble,yes holistic, not supermarket or walmart or cosco brands,  but in my opinion Im loving that my dogs look and feel great,  JMO  thanks for listening,

My boys have special diets to each dog. Kaoss tends to get more Chicken, Fish, Beef, pork and sometimes Deer. Because he’s growing I want to get the best proteins to ensure he grows slowly plus bone/organ. Leonidas because he’s a older guy with a lot of energy and a show dog he gets more “natural” canine meats that a wolf would eat. He gets Rabbit, Deer, Boar, Fish, quail, Chucker, Pheasant & Lamb. Every once in a blue moon I’ll give him chicken because he loves it so but we hunt a lot and in my area boar is a huge issue and deer are abound (esp fresh road kill) it’s easy to feed my dog stuff he enjoys. We also have a farmer close to us who will sell us goat for a good price and they’ll both get that. A lot of our dogs meat comes from farmers in the area so sometimes i’ll pay 75 cents a lb for meat that costs 3-4 dollars in super markets 

oh – the kibble?  the cheapest i could bear to give him ran $45 a bag.  it was supposed to last a month but he was running through it in 10 days.  the whole time he was on it, he had the runs and mucous shrouds in his poop.  i tried a more expensive brand, same thing. even the BARK didn’t work (it’s supposed to be basically a dehydrated raw diet kibble).

on natural food, he’s fabulous.

my 2 boys (black russian terrier & Belgian Malinois both intact) do best on raw, when i got Leonidas (the brt) he was on kibble and couldnt hold weight to save his life. we did tests on him to see if there was any issues with him and he checked out fine, this it absolutely the best way to keep a dog healthy seeing it’s a natural diet intended for canines. Leonidas when i got him weighed in a 130 odd lbs and is now at a healthy weight of 145 without being over weight. He was a rescue dog and not treated right by the original owners. My malinois has never seen kibble in his life and at 9mths old is the healthiest malinois ive seen in the working world when looking at kibble fed dogs. I find it to be cheaper than kibble by a lot seeing i have a 145lb dog and a malinois we’re expecting to be around 95lbs as i crunched the numbers i realized kibble would cost me 100 dollars more over raw feeding. Most people would tell you its not safe but it is. my dogs are healthy, lean, muscular, shed little, poo less and have no teeth/gum issues (my brt is 7.5yrs) the only thing i hate is the burps lol that stuff stinks!

Hi Karen ~~ lots of questions

Raw feeding can be very expensive for large dogs — absolutely.  There are ways to help with the costs (for some).  Making your own using bargain meats, bulk meats, meat from hunting friends/relatives etc. 

Raw is better for several reasons but if its not affordable I wouldn’t worry about it..   What you can do is add raw foods to the kibble diet. 

A lot of raw feeders, myself included, do add about 20 to 25% of the diet as veggies and fruits.  Dogs do not make the enzyme cellulase to break down the cellulose fiber in veggies.  However, by fermenting, steaming and/or grating the veggie you can break down the cellulose for them.  There are lots of nutrients in veggies and fruits that can benefit dogs.  Especially dogs living in the toxic environment we expose them too (gasoline fumes, fluorinated water and many many more).  Fermenting the veggies is a way of mimicing the veggies that would be found in smaller prey animals digestive tracts (which I’m told wolves do eat).

Honest Kitchen uses high quality ingredients (they are one of only two companies that can legally claim they are human grade — the food is processed in a human grade facility).  However, the meats in the foods are actually cooked — as they use heat high enough to cause enzyme loss when dehydrating.  The veggies/fruits are dehydrated in a way so as not to damage enzymes (and vitamins).  My main concern with Honest Kitchen is that they are too low in protein as compared to truly raw diets on the market.

Kibble isn’t “so bad” but IS different then raw.  In raw you will find natural vitamins.  In most kibbles the vitamins added are synthetic.  And not all are added back in.  Ex – in nature there are 8 kinds of vitamin E.  Kibbled foods, as most, only add 4 of those back in — at most.  Raw has natural enzymes that help digest the food etc… 

Some kibbles are better then others — some are heated at high temperatures which can create carcinogens within the food — HCA’s as an example.  Some amino acids (what the proteins break down to) are damaged by heat.  Some kibble manufacturers add them back in while others do not.  If they are not added back in the proteins in the food are less utilizable by the body at a cellular level.

Hey Godon,

I wasn’t Even aware there was a manufactured BARF food. I’m with you. When I say BARF diet, I’m talking about Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods. You know how I feel about flax!

Mike P – You’re funny.

“recalled from the Minnesota-based company Cargill”.

I would think you’re safe but you can always call Wellness and ask where they source the turkey from. I’m waiting for a call back from Earthborn. Better safe than sorry.

“BARF is King (Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods)…. just not Billinghurst’s BARF!” ……Spot on Shameless and what’s further, is that I was advised recently, that his patties are made by VIP. At least it is in Australia. VIP is a dog food brand in a roll kept in the fridge of our supermarkets. Now that I know this, if indeed it is true, then I have even more reason to boycott his patties. VIP is not a crash hot dog food going by its ingredients. Although, it’s still better than a lot of kibble brands.

Ahhh the best BARF food is one you make yourself, knowingly and intentionally using only the best organic meats, veggies and fruits.

Salmonella Outbreak: Turkey Recall One of the Largest Ever

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/192381/20110804/turkey-recall-salmonella.htm

I found a dog treat recipe that I was going to make this week – Turkey Meatballs with Parsley. I would have bought organic turkey meat which wasn’t affected by the recall, but still it’s ironic.

1 lb. ground turkey or other meat
1 egg
1 tsp chopped parsley
optional: 1/4 shredded cheese
1/2 cup chopped veggies

Mix all ingredients together and shape into meatballs. Bake at 350 for 10 min. or until browned. Let cool & serve. Depending on size of meatballs, should make about 15. You can freeze them too.

Mike – maybe when you get a chance, you could add a section for us to add home made recipes. Thanks.

Actually Gordon, it wasn’t a shot at you per se. I was roflmao because I could just imagine the stunned expression on ANYONE’s face having been treated in such a manner and after such a brief exchange of words. However, I can only imagine that the gentleman was having a very very bad day of which you were not the cause, but rather the victim.

It’s OK Sandi. You don’t have to keep justifying yourself. It’s water under the bridge. And yes I’m sure it was him, as I’ve spoken to him once before over a phone conversation some time ago, with a more amicable result. Also he actually didn’t even answer the phone, greeting the caller (me) that he’s BARF and/or Dr. B, so I then asked “Who am I speaking with?” to make sure it was him and to recognise his voice as him just saying “Hello” when answering the call wasn’t enough length to be sure. He replied, “This is Ian Billinghurst, and then I knew it was him. Unlike like others, it may seem strange to you, but he in fact does advertise his actual mobile number on his product cartons on the Australian BARF products, but his wife is the one who usually answers his mobile. Her name is Ros (I guess short for Rosylin). But this time he answered the phone.

Also please don’t mistaken the context of my comments re me bashing myself over my naivety. Because the BARF concept is still the best and is what Nature intended IMO and based on evolutionary facts. Just that my mistake to endorse and promote his version of BARF (Remembering that BARF stands for Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods, and therefore one’s own home made preparation based on the concept of BARF, is also BARF. And so are the other top drawer commercial raw formulations. It’s just that they can’t refer to their brands using the BARF name as its trade marked to its originator, Dr. B).

So while it doesn’t change the fact that BARF in its general concept is still valid, his commercial BARF products of me promoting it and for free I might add, from a customer perspective was now wrong to do, in hindsight.

It shows that if he treats his customers that way, then what’s to say that negligible attitude doesn’t filter down the BARF production line with short cuts and a pretense that it is compiled as claimed with high quality ingredients, when that may very well be a lie. And so thanks to his unacceptable customer treatment, he has lost me, my sister and family, my neighbour who was considering BARF and stopping Purina Lucky Dog, and a few friends of mine, from now ever going any where near his products!

And so I’ll be making time to create my own raw meats/organs to veggie ratio based on the BARF model for my own personal use in feeding my dogs. That being the best guarantee of knowing my dogs are getting the very best.

melissa – I’d expect you to be “ROFLMAO”. Have your shot at me. I don’t mind lol. And yes regardless of one having a bad day or not, a provider should know to bite their tongue no matter how they feel when it comes to customer service. I have an extensive experience in customer service over the years and have never done anything like this. I have once allowed myself to get entangled in an hostile argument with a customer and was rightfully disciplined over the incident. But a man of his professional stature, no matter how a bad mood he might have been in, is absolutely no excuse what so ever to engage in such bad language and atrocious customer service.

Dr. Lonsdale on the other hand, I sill consider a “champion”, because his teachings and philosophies are entirely financially unmotivated, as he has no vested interest other than true animal welfare and does not receive any financial gain in him recommending raw meaty bones and such appropriately natural foods for our pets.

Are you sure you were speaking with Dr. B himself and not anyone else in customer service. I can’t imagine a Vet giving out his mobile number or be that unprofessional. If you remember, I asked you why you thought the BARF diet was the best compared to the others. I wasn’t being difficult, only wanted to know what makes them “the best”. “Know Your Manufacturer, Know Your Ingredients” is what I base my decision on. My girlfriend met the owner of another kibble at a trade show. She did not have anything positive to say about him. Another girlfriend called his company’s Customer Service and didn’t have positive things to say about their service. Knowing that, I certainly would not buy his brand. It’s my money and my dog’s life!

Why don’t you call 866-282-2273 and ask to speak with Robert Mueller and tell him of your conversation. Also ask the same question to him re. Menadione.

Apparently Dr. B knows “Menadione” doesn’t belong in his products and got defensive.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it’s for us to make our decision. As long as you’re not attacking anyone and being respectful , please continue to give us your input. We are all here to learn from each other.

Sandi, thanks for the info. Yeah, I know about manufacturers and the shell games that they love to play.

No Sandi – That’s occurred in Sydney’s North Shore suburb of Mosman. One of the richest suburbs in Australia. I live about an hours drive west of Mosman.

Thanks Shameless for mentioning my book. BTW – it’s books – Who’s Your Vet? and Bernie The Skinny Dog. Bernie The Skinny Dog is a story about animal & people kindness. It is written for children 10+ as well as for their parents. Studies have been made about animal cruelty and its connection to human violence. “Humane Education” teaches kindness and respect for all animals. As a result, it can reduce the risk of animal abuse or violence. There is one section where I talk about “bullies” – why they feel it’s ok to bully other children and what children can do to protect themselves from a “bully.”

Your nasty comments don’t affect me one bit. I asked you a simple question since the E-Barf Plus sounded like a product I might be interested in. I like to know where the ingredients come from & since you are so proactive in “Know Your Farmer, Know Your Food” I assumed you would have done your homework before feeding it to your dog.

“Most of the food I consume, and that I feed my dog, comes from farms and fields that I have observed.”

I really don’t have the time to visit farms to watch the vegetables grow.

Do you know where the raw ingredients come from in human vitamins & minerals? Call your manufacturer and find out. It’s cheaper for companies to source from China.

Gordon – I called 866-282-2273 re: E-Barf Plus. I originally spoke with Al and asked where the ingredients are sourced from. He said that’s a really good question and put me on hold to ask someone else. He did say that’s a good question but no one ever asked it before. I then spoke with Christoper. I found both men to be very friendly and willing to help. Christoper said they changed computer systems and will have to call to find out about the ingredients. I said I’ll call him back in a few day. Robert Mueller, V.P. is the co-creator along with Dr. B. Dr. B is still on their Board of Directors. They’ve known each other for 35 years.

Michelle – I hope you realize a pet food company can change a formula anytime they want. They could also change their supplier or manufacturer any time they wish. The best way to know is to call them & ask questions. The Honest Kitchen has a list on their website where they source all their ingredients from. I don’t know another company that is doing that. If anyone knows, please do tell.

I’m presently feeding Earthborn Primitive. Check out my emails from them on the Earthborn Primitive page. I was previously feeding Wellness Original Core and couldn’t keep weight on my older one. In addition, they changed their formula. I also felt they were too pricey for just a 12 lb. bag that only lasted 19 days. I was feeding 3/4 cup to both 2x/day. I started out feeding 3/4 cup of Earthborn Primitive which caused “d” for the older one. I reduced it to 1/2 cup and he’s fine now. It is a higher protein & fat than Wellness. In the past I fed the Natura Line until P&G tookover. There is no perfect kibble and what works best for one dog might not be good for another. We’re all in the same boat trying to figure it out.

Sandi–is there anyway i can get your email? or is that not allowed? :O/ we have so much in common would love to chat by emailing..or do you have a Facebook acct? or maybe you dont want me contacting you lol that ok too!! :O)

Sandi – You sure are testy. Maybe if people disagree with you, your book won’t sell?
You also mistakenly assume too much. I don’t live in a rural area, and never said that I did. I live almost smack in the middle of the most densely populated county in Florida.
USA vegetables are easy to get, obviously. But what about those vitamins and minerals in most dog foods that are sourced from China?

Hey Sandi, do you have a list of foods that are 100% American sourced, including vitamins? Richard Darlington posted about meats being denatured with creasote and to look for foods that are APHIS EU certified. Any info? If anyone else has any info please post.

Hi Gordon – You just gained back my respect! I’m sorry you are disappointed in Dr. B after being a fan of the BARF Diet. Personally, I’d give them a call. I think they need you more than you need them. There are many other raw brands you can switch to. I heard Primal was good. I’ve called many manufacturers and have gotten my questions answered. Also, I did email Earthborn and they responded quickly. Many years ago I called a mfgr. and asked who made their food. They weren’t in a position to answer my question. I went to my girlfriend’s pet store and asked her to call. She stated she has a customer in her store who wants to know who manufacturers you food. Customer service told her to tell her customer not to be paranoid. LOL. She dropped their line. I heard they had the worst customer service.

“Know Your Manufacturer, Know Your Ingredients” is my motto. Shameless is feeding E-Barf Plus and has no clue where the ingredients are being sourced from. It wouldn’t surprise me if some are coming from China. It would matter to me.

Oh don’t worry about that Shameless. I guarantee to keep you and anyone else interested, updated re this issue.

“Know your farmer, know your food”, is a good motto.

Shameless and Adam I think it was, and anyone else that may be interested? The following is an answer to your recent question raised and I think you’ll find what I have to say somewhat interesting?

Anyway, as I stated under the Brothers Complete thread that I promised to email Dr. Billinghurst or BARF Australia (Don’t know who actually accesses their email) hence did so over 24 hours ago, re the ‘Canine Daily Nutritional’ supplement and why it contains Menadione? And why is it different to E-BARF Plus etc which doesn’t contain K3?

I have not yet received a response and quite frankly, I don’t think I will be. The reason is just the intuitive feeling I get and the fact that I’d emailed him about 2 months ago re a garlic powder product of another brand and what he thought of it, and I never received a response on that question. (But I never held him to it, because at the time, I kinda felt silly asking him about what he thought of the ingredients of someone else’s product). Anyway, because of that non response and the feeling that I won’t get a response on this current inquiry re this supplement’s more warranted inquiry, that has his name to it, I’m somewhat disheartened on such poor customer service. Of course he may end up getting back to me, but as you know, (and as most people are), I’m big on customer service and QA, and if I don’t get a response by the end of this week (Time I think is enough to expect a response), guess whatttttttt? No more BARF purchases by me! I will then just make time to prepare my own home made BARF meals for my dogs.

Furthermore, I emailed the dog trainer (Chris) who I’ve spoken of before, of whom says he knows Dr. B personally, about how someone had brought this whole supplement discrepancy to my attention and what his take is on why Dr. B or a rep don’t seem to respond?

He stated that he doesn’t know the reason but his experience is that (of what many of us experience anyway) businesses seem to selectively respond to inquiries. But he never even knew about Dr. B’s supplement products. I told him that it wasn’t obvious as one needs to click on the ‘Learn More’ Tab on his website, and then select ‘VNE’ to be taken to another website that refers to Dr. B’s supplement in question. What’s more is that I then noticed and advised Chris that when I clicked on the VNE website’s ‘Contact Us’ tab, it comes up with the following:-

“Email us:

customerservice@VNEssentials.com
Call us toll-free:

1 (866) 616-BARK (2275)
Write to:

Customer Service
Veterinary Nutrition Essentials
350 Ramapo Valley Road, Suite 18-123
Oakland, NJ 07436-7300″

So the mystery deepens, which leads me to believe that the Canine Daily Nutritional supplement is actually an American product aimed at both Australia and the US, and under their VNE website’s ‘Our Doctors’ Tab, it shows Dr. B and his profile. So now Chris and I are further lead to believe that VNE has probably purchased Dr. B’s name to be placed on their product. Chris further stated, “Yes, I think money makes people stupid and make stupid decisions.” Referring to Dr. B’s sellout to a company that has purchased the rights to place his name on their supplement product. And that this company most likely has no relation to BARFWORLD who supply the E-BARF Plus supplement, of who have also probably just purchase the rights from Dr. B, to also place his name to their supplement product.

Of course though, with out an official response from Dr. B or his rep, on this issue, we could only speculate.

Then I stated to Chris, that since you know Dr. B personally, it might be prudent to let him know that someone has picked up on all this. Chris’s reply to this was, “I’ve pointed out many a thing and they don’t seem to care or do much about
it. His website is still promoting products that have been out of production for a year.”

So all in all, whilst thus far, Dr. B’s patties have shown beneficial results and does not contain K3, I have lost some respect for Dr. B given this latest episode and warranted speculation, and if I don’t end up receiving a response from his company which seems unlikely that I will, then how can I trust his patties any further, given the fact that if his QA and customer service is lacking, then what’s to say that his actual BARF patties production line is also lacking in quality?

Sandi asks me “Do you really feel I’m not justified in my responses to Gordon?” YES.

Sandi writes “Gordon also didn’t answer my questions so we can see why the BARF Diet is better than other raw brands. I had no plans to debate it, just show us why he feels it’s so superior to other raw brands. I don’t have a problem if he’s a BARF distributor or a manufacturer . . .”

Gordon has already stated that he doesn’t work for BARF. You can believe or disbelieve. Just like you can believe or disbelieve that unprocessed raw Real Food is superior dog food than any dog kibble on the planet.

Gordon says he feeds the BARF Diet, and he often comments about that. He also often comments about the superior quality of most of the 5* raw foods reviewed on DFA; for example – a recent comment by Gordon:
“Back to BARF. It basically covers most of the top rated raw foods listed here as they’re all pretty much BARF (Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods).”

Not sure where to post the following news, so I thought I’d post it under my favourite dog food thread.

I rescued a cute flat faced, huge eyed long haired albino cat today. It has a collar and was wondering lost and was hanging around a milk bar with no one laying claim to it and people asking who’s is it? I waited for my hot food order and when I got it, I proceeded to walk out and couldn’t help but feel sorry for the poor little thing. Others were looking at it to and its collar was checked for any name tag to no avail. It was hanging the milk bar because it was hungry and could smell food.

So anyway, I couldn’t help it and as I saw it eating a cooked potato chip that was lying on the ground, I thought I’d see if it would respond and I said, “Come on, come on, come with me”. To my amasement, it understood and so followed me. You could tell, it was domesticated, and humanised and so I took it in. I think its a British Longhair breed? Anyway, it looks like the breed that the character in the old James Bond movies of the Sean Connery era, of the head of Spectre where you never get to see him, but he always had that cat breed on his lap that he patted when issuing orders to Bond’s villains.

I had nothing but a can of human grade sardines and water to give it. It ate it with enthusiasm. I plan to take it to the Vet on Monday to have it scanned for a possible micro chip in the hope its owner will be revealed and has legitimately lost it. That way it can go back to its owner, otherwise, I may just settle to keep it myself, to my already collection of 2 dogs and 2 parrots.

I actually started my pugs on raw beef first for 2 reasons. First, I always feared salmonella with chicken, and second they usually share my steak which I cook on the rare side. I started them on it by just offering it as a treat, a few bites a day. I would split one 8 oz patty between the 4 of them a couple times a week and then increased from there. Now they get a full raw meal of beef, chicken, duck, or goose or rabbit probably every 3rd feeding depending on me remembering to take it out of the freezer!

I actually feed some wild game from time to time, deer prodominently, occasional squirrel and rabbit, but those meats are seasonal. And of course I haven’t had luck w/ Raw so I cook mine and the dog(s) get leftovers from that. I think my friends Schnauzer is very likely going to get chicken though.

No probs. You can copy and paste it as a quote, Antonio. I hope it works out for him. If not, the least allergic meat source and the most neutral, is usually lamb.

Antonio – Either beef flavour or chicken is ok. If you had to choose for a Schnauzer, I would go the chicken to start off with, because of a few reasons. One being raw foods are more acidic and lower in pH so if their dog has been on dry food all this time, a chicken flavour would better suited to start the weening process. This is because beef can sometimes cause the most allergic reaction. Having said that, I feed my dogs who are class 2: terrier dogs, hence small breeds, the combination BARF flavour for multiple protein source reasons, and so far they’re accustomed to this and are thriving. That doesn’t mean all dogs would. So start with chicken flavour first with any raw brand for that matter, I would suggest. The kibble I feed my dogs when alternating with raw, is the Artemis Maximal one so in that, they then only get the chicken meat protein source.

Unfortunately, unlike raw, Australia, isn’t big on holistic and grain free type kibbles, and we get a choice of only the imported Artemis, Canidae, and Evo (I don’t trust P&G, so they’re out of the question). We did get Orijen but it was withdrawn due to the gamma irradiation debacle back in 2008.

Anyway, go the chicken over the beef to start with, like for a month or so, to make sure they’ll handle raw OK first off.

Hope this helps.

also on the whole raw food worries. we started giving our boys ziwi peak. from what they say it is doesnt have all the possible problems of true raw food but from what they say it is basically like a raw food meal. its airdried so its just looks like you are feeding them jerky.

our boys go crazy for it, its just like giving them a treat. and there is no problem doing kibble and ziwi peak. i know the other true raw foods always say not to give them kibble and the raw food to close together. we do one day kibble, one day ziwi peak

Don’t use Greenies!!!!! The wreak havioc with a dogs digestion. I don’t care how much they say they are digestible, they are NOT!! The cat version also messed up my cat. It constipated him for a good two weeks. I finally got him moving with tuna with oil. I actually let him lap up the oil with the tuna. Then I give them the unsweetened pumpkin, because it works for both bowel issues.

Yeah ok Mr. Sagman. Have it your way. I’m not at all fussed. “Others” who disagree, I take it is Melissa, and not always, but sometimes, Jonathan, you mean? There are plenty that do agree with my advice. My advice is factually based apart from one mistake (“May those who never sinned cast the first stone”) when over exaggerating the flea on dog bedding comment. Other than that, all my advice is based on factually and scientifically proven literature, as I had also publicised here under many threads to which your rebuttal was , “Why am I passionately defending my claims?” I am obviously a threat to you. I have 3 degrees, albeit not related to health nor canine nutrition, I make no apologies for my calling a spade a “spade”.

My above comment wasn’t intended to be insulting. but now from your last comment, I don’t care if you took it that way.

You’ve obviously become really defensive unlike any other forum creator I’ve communicated with, and when the tough gets too much, although you haven’t said such to me yet, you no doubt, unwelcome my well informed participation in this forum. Just like you told ed that he was no longer welcome on this forum under the ‘Dry Food and Cleaner Teeth Article’, I’ll save you the time in directly telling me the same thing.

Now ask yourself where I ever bashed any American or Canadian food quality control methods. It was you who eluded to such. Wake up to yourself. Become more knowledgeable on what the rest of the world thinks of the arrogance you no doubt, as an American representative displayed in our recent exchanges, and in particular, the one directly above.

I’ll no longer be a knowledge base of threat to you any longer. Don’t worry, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out, lol. Good bye to you sir.

Yeah, it appears raw food quality control measures are greatly different between the USA and Australia, New Zealand and Europe (Basically almost the rest of the world). I’m amased that, you as a dentist (Ok, you’re not a GP, nutritionist, or microbiologist) insist that you’re an authority on the subject. I amased that you being a dentist, no better educated than my own dentist for that matter, however, a professional in a particular field you are, keep misreading, and misinterpreting what I write. Surely you can read well, and read between the lines, no?

Where do I ever say, that there are no risks involved in raw feeding? Look, I respect and like you Mike. After all, this is a great and informative site, but I feel you’re too much of a control freak, and you keep taking my comments out of context. I challenged you recently on where I quoted any misrepresentations on facts and as you know, when you attempted to, it came out as a gross misunderstanding. Now I am not of the intention of wanting to embarrass you in any way, shape or form, and respect the fact that this is your website, and for all intents and purposes you may impose censorship and/or edit out some comments like you may or may not have. Nothing I can do to stop that, but I urge you to actually read what I write, and please ask you to stop menacing my remarks for a lack of a better description.

Am I not advising readers to take sanitary precautions? Are you saying that your readers are below the understanding level of what such sanitary precautions to conduct are? Have I not at times explained what these precautions of activities should be?

Why are we still arguing this point?

If you feel so strongly over any misleading communication you think I’m conveying, let’s go over it all step by step in a civil manner between two obviously intelligent people?

Am I not right when I state the risks of car accidents as one example that carries statistically, a higher risk of occurrence than that of salmonella and such bacterial poisoning? Perhaps it really is because, the USA encounter a much higher rate of such poisoning occurrences? I don’t know, nor do I profess to know. What I do know is, BARF for example has never had a case of recall or any bacterial warning issues nor poisoning what so ever. Our butchers in Australia, are in the practice of utmost hygiene and quality clean raw meats provisions. People here, often buy such meats with utmost confidence and rarely is there ever an issue of bacteria outbreaks or government warnings to suspect culprits, nor media reports of same. And believe you me, our media would be right onto any such issues and stop only at the truth, if not even help themselves, but to exaggerate, on such cases and similar.

Am I claiming the risks are small? Yes I admit I am. Aren’t they? Well they certainly are in Australia and New Zealand for that matter. Perhaps it’s a case of the laws of probability that in the USA, the risks are actually much higher than Australia and New Zealand given the fact that there is, what, 300,000,000 people in the USA, as in contrast to 22,000,000 in Australia, and 5,000,000 in New Zealand.

Now, I haven’t clicked on your advertised fact sheet on the subject. Perhaps you’re right in that your compatriot American readers should, and I don’t discourage that. I know that Dr. Ian Billinghurst’s BARF, has sensible warnings displayed on his products, and that such is the magnitude of an animal health care professional, expert and reputation that he is and portrays, would be foolish and an act of gross irresponsibility and unprofessionalism for such a man and his product, to risk his sales and world wide reputation, in allowing his Quality Control to chance any well sealed raw food patty packages, in carrying any dangerous bacterial cultures (Especially given the fact they come frozen and transported in vehicles containing freezers). That doesn’t mean that he or anyone in the same business can guarantee 100% for any raw meats to never harbour the latter, but it is a true fact, that with his Quality Control, such risk is extremely minimal.

I would rather you have argued what you have in a better and less forceful manner, by way of advertising your fact sheet earlier in our exchanges on this issue, and instead of misreading most of my postings re-read them and acted in a more chivalrous manner, arguing your support of raw foods and politely reminding your readers, despite your support of raw foods for our best friends, that there are risks and to please read your facts sheet, all with out impressing upon other readers that I am misleading same, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Wouldn’t that be a better way of having handled your concern? I don’t know? Is it just me? Perhaps I’m being too defensive, however from my perspective given all the above, I don’t feel that I am.

Gina – You’re welcome. I heard that somewhere about kibble and raw isn’t good for dogs, and I think, on this site as well. Put it this way. My dogs are thriving. Also you can feed kibble and give a dog a bone, which is raw, and it won’t affect it just because it ate kibble before it chews on a raw bone. See what I mean. That logic doesn’t make sense.

Keep in mind that there is a lot of scare mongering about raw, because some feel it has the potential to hurt kibble sales. I beg to differ, because kibble will always be cheaper in price than raw, and most people just can’t afford raw either at all, or all the time. So no matter what, kibble will always make sales.

With raw dog food, just treat it like anything raw, and remember to clean up after any preparations or mess.

While some persist with the salmonella risk scare campaign, there is higher risk of you having a car accident, and getting injured, fatally or otherwise. There are millions of accidents and thousands of deaths by car accidents each year, yet the majority of raw feeders have not had one single episode of bacterial food poisoning with themselves or their dogs.

Is there a risk of bacteria with raw food. Of course there is, just like there is with raw preparations for humans before cooking takes place.

The rumours about it being a bad thing for dogs health-wise to feed kibble and raw is nonsense and a complete myth.

And yes you can mix them together safely.

I feed my dogs raw meaty bones like chicken necks, chicken wings, chicken frames and lamb briskets. Beef briskets are good too, and these are best purchased from quality butchers.

Yes Sir. I read a similar quote under your ‘Pig Ears Recalled Due to Possible Salmonella’ article. Scary, isn’t it?

Yeah natalie – But just remember, take all necessary sanitary precautions when dealing with raw anything. I have a feeling, this website’s author and some other regular commentators aren’t very appreciative of my confident (maybe seen as cocky) advice.

SO PLEASE AGAIN, CLEAN UP AFTER ANY RAW FOOD HANDLING. Especially since, I don’t know what regulations are in place in relation to commercial human grade meats. I know that in Australia, such regulations are stringent and of the utmost scrutiny.

And when in doubt about any thing pet related, your best source is an actual professional….An actual Veterinarian, albeit, a natural, holistic advocating one.

k makely – Whilst your comment is true, it would be better served under one of the 1 to 2 star food threads. This is not the case with BARF. Nor does it use any anonymous meat terms in its ingredients lists.

The other great thing about BARF, unlike most kibble bags, including the quality grain free ones, is that it displays a Typical Analysis table as opposed to “Guaranteed Analysis”, and it also specifies the average Dry Matter Basis percentages of the nutrients in brackets adjacent the crude percentages, which is also unlike the top drawer kibbles, which only display the crude percentages.

Another tell tale sign of the integrity of BARF.

Gina – Sounds about right. Put it this way. The box says to feed anywhere from 2 to 5% of the dog’s body weight, depending on its activity levels. It sounds like your dogs would need 5% each day for each dog.

So the Border Collie pup weighing 11.34 kg (25lbs) and the Labrador weighing 22.68 kg (50lbs), and each patty weighing at approximately 227 g (8oz), means you would require approximately 4.68 cases/bags (12 patties in each) per month at a cost I calculated to be $566.14 for every 30 days, based on Barfworld’s prices for the combination formula as an example.

With out using their calculator, the following is how I calculated the above:-

5% of Border Collie Pup’s weight = 0.567kg (567g or 20oz)

5% of Labrador’s weight = 1.134kg (1,134g or 40oz)

That equals 1.701kg (1,701g or 60oz) of BARF per day

1.701kg (1,701g or 60oz) x 30 days (Average month) = 51.03kg (1800oz or 112.5lbs)

51.03kg (1800oz or 112.5lbs) / 227g (8oz) patty = 224.8 patties

So in Barfworld’s offer of for the combo flavour, being US$120.97 for 4 cases which contains 48 patties, I further calculate:-

224.8 patties / 48 patties = 4.68 cases required in 30 days

So 4.68 cases x US$120.97 = US$566.14 for your dogs per average month.

That’s astoundingly expensive and your amasement is understandable and warranted.

What I do, is feed my 2 dogs (Both around 8kg {17.6lbs} each, BARF every second morning at half their daily allowance, and for every dinner a quality grain free kibble + every alternative morning.

The half of the recommended daily allowance of BARF for both my dogs = 1 patty. The reason why I feed them half the daily allowance is because they get dinner, being kibble to equate to the kibble’s half day allowance, if that makes sense for you? The alternate day, they get kibble for breakfast and dinner equating to the kibble’s full day’s allowance.

In addition to the above, I give my dogs raw meaty bones after dinner and as the last snack of the day to increase their raw intake to supplement my BARF (Every 2nd morning) feeding regime, and to help clean their teeth. This way they still get BARF albeit less than I’d prefer (because of the cost).

In Australia 4 x cases of 12 patty BARF would cost me AU$94.88 for the combo flavour.

By the same token, the imported kibble from the US, being Artemis Maximal that is the main kibble I feed my dogs, costs me AU$119.00 for a 13.6kg (30lb) bag. Where this would cost you and your fellow Americans, around US$50.00 to US$60.00 for the same amount.

It’s all about considering your budget and weighing up or compromising your expenses with the well being of yourself and family members including your pets.

Can someone tell me if I am doing this right?! So, for me to feed my approx. 25lb 5 month Border Collie puppy, and 50lb 5yr Lab, it would cost me $530.00 a month to feed BARF. I used the calculator on http://www.barfproducts.com/ and I calculated it at 4% of their body weight. We walk 1-2 miles a day and about an hour of playing fetch. It came out saying my Lab needs 5 patties a day, and the puppy 2 a day. So, if I got the Variety Pack I would need four of those a month, at $120.00 each plus the $25.00 for 2 cases twice a month. Is this right? Do people actually pay this much for dog food? No offense if you do, I’m just very curious.

oh yeah sorry, haha. they are really popular around here. they are a treat. they are supposed to help cleath their teeth. dogs go crazy for them. wow i found a question you cant answer or give good advice.

gordon what are your thoughts on greenies?

do you think they are good for the dog? the texture seems strange. we give our pups one like every other day. we also got the blue buffalo kind and they look better

I just noticed after all this time, that the BARF label on the actual box also contains the Typical Analysis (As opposed to the “Guaranteed” wording) with the Dry Matter Based percentages in brackets adjacent the respective crude percentages. Although the figures differ to Mike’s figures from his explanation of the simple arithmetic of calculating Dry Matter Basis. I guess “Typical” being more of a average than advertising guaranteed figures. This could also be because of the fact that raw, being unprocessed is in general less accurate than a controlled environment in processing kibble and canned foods, and therefore ash I would of thought, would be less present in raw foods (Probably less than 8% anyway).

@ what Susan stated on 25 April – some points that I agree on, in addition to my reply earlier whether supportive or not.

It is true that buying raw meaty bones such as drumsticks from your local supermarket may not be as healthy as it’s cracked up to be, as to be fair on what Susan stated – and that is, they and similar most likely have added hormones and chemicals in them. Although one major supermarket down under now claims that all their raw meats are hormone free. I’m still skeptical, and will still only buy various raw meaty bones from butchers’ stores as most are unlikely to have added hormones and chemicals in them, not to mention that I find such meats are cheaper in price than buying the same at any supermarket. At least, this is the case in Australia.

I defend raw feeding to an extent, too Mike P. But you know I feed kibble.

I think Susan’s done a runner. I wish people would stick around and further back their arguments, instead of leaving one long essay, then disappearing, lol.

Susan, you say…

“Some raw meat and a handful of peas, carrots or sweet potato doesn’t make the meal balanced or nutritional for your dog.”

Really? So, before big companies were manufacturing dog kibble, how ever did dogs survive? You know, people have substantial vitamin and mineral needs, yet we are allowed to just pick our foods… gosh, how do we live day to day without a baked nutrient pellet replacing our meals?? Lol. There is NO WAY a baked meat-flavored pellet can be better than the whole foods it’s made from. Just sayin.

Well there you go then Sara. No need to add any extra fibre to BARF. It contains 17.9% fibre. more than 16.4%.

Mike, how is the total “carbs” less than the total fiber? I thought you added the fiber in with the carbs. That was my question.

That was meant to read, “That’s assuming we CONVERT BARF into kibble”.

Oh, that also helps estimate the carbs. which for the above would be about 21.73% (assuming 7% ash).

Gordon, all dry matter means is calculating out the moisture of the food. Here is the GA for BARF…

Crude Protein minimum 13.5%
Crude Fat minimum 11.0%
Crude Fiber maximum 5.0%
Moisture maximum 68.0%

SO… in order to get to the “true” protein, fat, etc, we have to mathematically eliminate the moisture.

you would get …

Protien 42.18%
fat 29.09%
fiber 15.62%

Gordon, you do have to take into account that they may be reporting, as this site does, the “dry matter” fiber.

Yeah, that 17.9% must be simply a typing error, as the total carb content is only 13%.

For those of you who live in Jupiter (Florida) this product is sold at HealthepetsMarket located at 155 Toney Penna Drive (just west of A1A next to Angelo’s) I recently switched from Primal which I found too expensive, to BARF which I found to be just as good in quality but more afordable. My Great Dane loves it.

The 26 year old terrior in louisianna has eaten kibbles and bits his entire life . I wish the raw feeders would stop saying that raw will let dogs live that much longer . The big picture here is that we all agree that better nutrition will allow dogs to live a better quality of life, not a much longer one . Google Max the oldest dog . People just feed the best quality you can afford and love em while they are here .

Hi Christyn – Mike Sagman answered your question correctly. I’m sorry I didn’t read your question earlier but I’m just an occasional visitor and commenter here offering his 2 cents worth from time to time. This is Mike’s website and he responds much quicker.

Hi zander – Your Vet’s advice about raw foods in general couldn’t be further from the truth. Dr. Billinghurst is a Vet and his BARF formulas are based on thousands of years of nature’s proven results. Most Vets just like the marketers of the huge profit driven dog food manufacturing companies will use every smear campaign tactic in the book to discredit raw foods like BARF. I have so much more to say and I don’t have time right now, but I will return with so much evidence from sources and references that prove BARF as simply the best on the market for any dog of any life stage. I will soon take up many pages of written discourse providing many references of truths available. But for now just in passing – there have been studies that have proven a dog’s real life span can reach up to 27 years of age on raw foods. BARF is specially formulated by the Vet mentioned above using his educated science and knowledge to formulate the correct balance ratio of meat to equivalent semi digested veggies and fruits from tripe that dogs would naturally indulge from a kill in the stomachs of their prey.

Hi Bev Thomas – Garlic has been attributed with humans and other mammals such as dogs to aid in better digestion and actually helps prolong life and combat many ailments. In France the famous French Paradox of red wines in moderation has been attributed to the French peoples’ long and healthy lives just like the Russian farmers who live beyond a century due to many claiming to actually eat raw garlic with a glass of fresh cows’ milk every day! I personally couldn’t do that but I believe them. Perhaps that’s the Russian Paradox.

Also ShamelessRawFoodie has made many valid points and provided great references. Thumbs up from me.

Bev Thomas – Also regarding bacteria – dogs and cats for that matter are much better equipped in combating bacteria than us humans. It’s hardly a problem for them as even their saliva have shown in some valid studies, that same actually kills bad bacteria on contact. That’s why mother dogs instinctively lick all over their pups’ bodies to cover same with the mothers’ protective saliva coating to combat the nasties that pups may be otherwise be contaminated with. A particular 1990 university study (can’t remember the actual university but it was in the US) had shown the benefits of the dog’s saliva as being able to kill off nasty bacteria. Another case study I read some time ago, showed that a man’s gangrene ridden leg was saved by his dog’s consistent licking of the leg which was attributed in doing mainly 2 things – 1. being helping due to the dog’s saliva healing properties and 2. being the constant encouragement of blood circulation to the man’s infected leg. Now this doesn’t mean that you’re going to be safe or less likely to be effected in anyway from your dog licking your face after raiding the rubbish bin. But I’m able to avoid my dogs from doing this. Can’t everybody? Also, shouldn’t we all be feeding our dogs raw bones from the butchers as the last meal or snack of the day, benefiting our dogs in a number of ways. Firstly by way dental hygiene, cleaning their teeth the natural way whilst they enjoy what nature had intended, not to mention the protein and phosphorus they also get from raw bones.

There is another source or reference I will soon post here when I could be bothered, that speaks about raw bones and its benefits and how just truly naturally digestible they actually are for dogs.

Dr. Billinghurst’s BARF, I can not praise enough. It has gone the extra mile in that it has actually healed one of my dog’s grass allergy problems. Whilst Dr. Billinghurst is not in anyway a fan of cooked foods for dogs that the end results in it becoming dry foods, I am still also impressed with some of these grain free holistic kibbles on the market. After all, Artemis Maximal being one of them, prior to me having found and fed BARF, did actually improve the health of my dogs’ coats. However even Artemis Australia in, now, addition to Artemis ‘Ask a Vet’ form from the Artemis US HQ website, is failing to answer some of my questions. For this reason I am in a phase of switching this kibble to perhaps Canidae which I can also get in Australia (I feed both BARF and grain free kibble due to convenience and finances, otherwise if my latter was in better shape, I would only use BARF).

Do you Mike, or anyone else for that matter, know if Canidae, like Artemis and Taste of the Wild, is made by Diamond Pet in the US?

About a dog’s mouth bacteria – here is another vet quoted in a news article
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1213870
Excerpts:
Pooches Mouths Are Dirty, but They’re Safe to Kiss Oct. 14, 2005
To find out just who has a cleaner mouth, we asked veterinarian and fellow dog lover Marty Becker, author of “Chicken Soup for the Dog Owner’s Soul,” to offer his opinion.
“They raid the garbage can. You know, we give each other a peck on the cheek when we say hello, they give each other a peck on the rear end,” said Becker
If you want to give your pooch a kiss, it may be safer than kissing another human.
Becker says many of the bacteria in the mouth of a dog are species specific, so it won’t harm its owner.
“So a staph or a strep for a human is not transmissible to a dog, if you were to kiss it, and vice versa,” said Becker.
Bottom line — you’re more likely to get a serious illness from kissing a person than kissing a dog.

How do you deal with feeding RAW and and contamination that may be on the dogs mouth, and also they lick there face and paws. I want to feed RAW but dont want salmonella or bacteria all over the house from the dog rubbing her face on my bedspread, carpet etc., after she eats. Also, my elderly mother pets her all the time and kisses on her. Thank you for all your answers.

zander this is only an opinion …I’m sure lots of people did not do the proper research for feeding raw and ran into problems . The raw food sold at pet stores are formulated with balanced nutrition hence the very high price tag . If you want to feed raw you should probably go in that direction . I believe the problem is when people just wing it and throw anything raw at their dog on the lawn in the backyard. I’m to stupid to try and cook for my dog and would screw things up if I tried it . I’m sticking to the lesser 5 star cans and kibble for that reason . Be careful zander , anything negative said about raw will get you bashed by the raw fanatics . They are very passionate about the way they feed . This is the greatest site on these topics and I’ve come to respect everyones opinions , and this is just mine . I hope you find the right direction for you and your dog . Don’t feel guilty if you decide on good kibble and or canned food. The mission of this site is to help people feed dogs BETTER than we did in the past . That has helped me and mine 100 %..good luck

Yippy! Thanks Mike!

Hey Gordon and Mike,

2 weeks ago I bought 2 Miniature Pinscher puppies. They are now 3 months old. They were being fed Purina for Puppies or something awful like that. I had switched them to AvoDerm and they eat it, but not nearly enough (they are also under weight). I just tried giving them some extra lean turkey meat last night mixed with some cottage cheese and butternut squash and they LOVED it. I have never seen them lick their bowls clean!

I now want to transition to BARF or something like it, but I’ve heard that it might not be so good for puppies under 6-8 months? I’m a complete believer in giving them what is most natural to their breed (i.e. mini pins would never eat fish..so I stay away from it). Any info either of you might have on puppies and the BARF diet would be most appreciated

By the way, I am not sure that you can buy this in a store. I get mine at http://www.barfworld.com