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Trying to get answers from Primal customer service
- This topic has 8 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 11 months ago by
Reese B.
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AuthorPosts
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Reese B
MemberHi guys,
This will be a long post.
So, with the new âgrain free scareâ Iâve been thinking about trying raw or freeze dried raw. I was looking at primal products but couldnât figure out why the nutrition profiles were so different from their raw vs. freeze dried. On the website they state that their freeze dried is exactly the same as their raw except the moisture is removed. So I wrote them to find out more. Below is my e-mail exchange so farâŠ.ME:
Iâm new to raw and looking for a lower fat option. Iâm on the fence between raw frozen and freeze dried and was looking over the products on your website to see if any fit the bill of what I was looking for.
I noticed your frozen raw rabbit formula was low fat at 17% protein and 5% fat.
I then looked at the freeze dry formula and was surprised to see the protein is listed at 50% and the the fat is 28%.
When I did the math to convert the frozen formula to a dry matter basis I got that the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%17 / 29 x 100 = 58% for protein
5 / 29 x 100 = 17% for fat
Did I do the math wrong? I donât understand why the protein and fat is so different on for your frozen vs freeze dried rabbit formula if the ingredient are the same.
If you could explain, that would be greatly appreciated.PRIMALâS REPLY:
Thank you for contacting us. I can see how the math can get confusing. The nutritional values on our site are listed on an as-fed basis. Of course youâll see that when you compare the guaranteed analysis of our freeze-dried formula to our raw frozen formula, the protein and fat levels in the freeze-dried varieties appear to be elevated at first glance. However, the key to understanding this difference lies in the moisture content. Since the moisture has been removed in the freeze-dried product, this causes the protein and fat levels to increase. For best feeding results, we recommend rehydrating with water. The weight of a freeze-dried nugget weighs less than that of a raw nugget because moisture has been removed. Nutritionally, a raw nugget is the same as a freeze-dried nugget when rehydrated or consumed with water.ME:
I understand that the values are listed on as fed basisâŠbut my question is regarding why the math doesnât add up from your raw to freeze dried formula. If you re-read my original email youâll see Iâve done the math to convert you raw formula to a dry formula and the values donât match what is listed on the freeze-dried product.
If you convert the raw rabbit recipe into a dry matter basis, the protein should be 58% and the fat should be 17%. However thatâs not whatâs listed on the product. So Iâm wondering how did you determine the values for the freeze dried formula?(EDIT: I didnât get a reply to the above email, so I wrote to them again.)
ME:
I havenât heard back from anyone regarding this. Maybe Iâm not asking my question in a way that makes sense. Let me try to explainâŠ
I understand that freeze dried food will always have higher nutritional values because the moisture is removed making it a higher concentration, however, the values on your freeze dried product donât make sense compared to your raw frozen product from a mathematical stand point.
For example, your frozen raw rabbit has a 17% protein and 5% fat. If I convert these to dry matter based on the formula on your blog (https://primalpetfoods.com/blogs/news/guaranteed-analysis-what-does-it-mean) it should be 58% for protein and 17% for fat.
% guarantee Ă· dry matter x 100
17 Ă· 29 x 100 = 58% for protein
5 Ă· 29 x 100 = 17% for fat
However, on your freeze dried rabbit nuggets the protein is listed as 53% and the fat is listed as 28%.
There is no way the fat in the freeze dried product should be that high if itâs the same ingredients/formula as the frozen raw. Iâve noticed several other of your freeze dried formulaâs are listing fat at a much higher percentage than it should be.
Please explain to me how you are getting the values for your freeze dried products.PRIMAL:
I apologize for my delay in response but greatly appreciate your patience! Please see below for assistance with your conversion:
1. The Protein/Fat content printed on the packaging is usually the exact lab result, and may depend on the source and part of the rabbit tested*.
2. Approximate average figures are generally 3 X Frozen values:
PFF Calculated Frozen : Protein (17), Fat (5) â Approximate â Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (51), Fat (15) â Approximate
â PFF Actual Freeze-dried : Protein (50), Fat (28) â Actual lab results*(Variability in raw source)
â Customer Calculated Freeze-dried : Protein (58), Fat (17) â Approximate
We suggest using PPF calculated amount to make the final decision.ME:
Thanks for your response. Iâd like to make sure that I understand this correctly. When the lab tested both the raw and freeze dried, they got different values for fat and protein for both formulaâs (even though they are the same), because different or fattier parts of the rabbit could have been used in the freeze dried batch?
The approximate average figures are generally 3x the frozen value, but it this case itâs 6x the fat. ( 5% fat in the raw rabbit vs 28% fat in the freeze dried rabbit.)
Do you lab test each batch for protein and fat content, as it seems it can vary considerably.
On the freeze dried product it states that 28% is the minimum fat content, meaning it could be higher, but not lower.
This is where Iâm confused because if the raw frozen and freeze dried are essentially the same product (just with moisture removed) the freeze dried variety had a much higher fat content than the rawâŠmeaning different batches have different fat content. So itâs impossible to say that the minimum fat in the freeze dried rabbit is 28%, right? There are batches that could have less fat depending on the source and part of the rabbit tested.
Please let me know if this is correct.PRIMAL:
While we are required to list guaranteed analysis information in terms of minimums and maximums, the values weâve chosen to post are not actually a minimum or a maximum. We list the actual values that we receive from our lab tests.ME:
That doesnât make sense to me. Youâre required to list guaranteed information in terms of minimum and maximum, but youâre choosing not to? Iâm not trying to be difficult, I just genuinely donât understand. Should I disregard the minimum/maximum values on your packaging?
YOU didnât answer my other questions. Do you test each batch for fat/protein content? How did you decide what is listed on the freeze dried package in terms of protein and fat? Did you test multiple batches and give an average or did you only test one batch and print those results on all of the packaging?
Based on your previous emails Iâm assuming that the fat content on the freeze dried product is much higher than the fat listed on the frozen raw product because of âthe source or part of rabbit.â
But that being said, in other batches of food a leaner rabbit source could be used making the fat content lower. So am I correct in saying the 28% fat is not the definite minimum and could be much lower in other batches depending on the rabbit source?(I sent that last e-mail to primal on Aug 2nd, and I have not gotten a reply back since.
Does what theyâre saying make sense to anyone? I thought they were required to list minimum or maximum valuesâŠ.any thoughts?)Patricia A
ParticipantReese thankâs for posting this again under canine nutrition. No luck with Primal. The rep just didnât seem to understand what i was asking or didnât have enough knowledge to answer my questions. Just kept saying that once rehydrated the freeze dried would be the same nutritionally as the raw. Explained my concerns of needing a lower fat recipe and response was give less nuggets. I did some research since I switch between Stella Chewyâs and Primal Freeze Dried. My results were the Primal rabbit is 53% Protein/28% Fat but REHYDRATED is Protein 17%/5% fat. Exactly the same as the raw of same protein when rehydrated. Venison very close to same fat as rabbit and exactly the same as frozen raw rehydrated also. Stellaâs which I also rotate with has 5% higher fat with their rabbit and venison.
So do I need to still need to figure out the fat or is label telling me all I need to know regarding the fat???? As usual this is too complicated and Iâm confused. Maybe rep gave me the correct info?-
This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by
Patricia A.
Reese B
MemberHi Patricia,
The rep doesnât know what theyâre talking about.
The raw and freeze dried are not the exact same thing. The freeze dried has a higher fat content. If they were exactly the same, the fat for the freeze dried rabbit would be 17%, not 28%.I still havenât heard back from them. Iâm done with primal. I will not buy a product from a company who canât/wonât answer basic questions about the nutrition of their food.
jhon l
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ParticipantHi Reese,
I had a similarly unproductive conversation with Primal many years ago. So much misinformation from the company. I find this to be a common occurrence with many companies who focus on marketing vs nutrition.
Reese B
MemberI totally agree Aimee. Itâs so hard to find an honest, reputable company anymore.
My favourite part of Primalâs response was:
âWhile we are required to list guaranteed analysis information in terms of minimums and maximums, the values weâve chosen to post are not actually a minimum or a maximumâSeriously?! Theyâre required to list minimum and maximum levels but theyâve chosen not to?! Are they even legally allowed to do that?
I thought they HAD to have minimum/maximum levels stated.Patricia A
ParticipantSadly I donât think Iâve come across a food that DIDNâT list their guaranteed analysis such as protein/fat as Minimum. Iâm sure their protein listing is always showing the highest possible amount and the fat showing the lowest but most likely much higher.
Reese if you enlarge where primal shows the guaranteed analysis it shows the guaranteed analysis in the freeze-dried as 28% fat but under that shows the rehydrated as 5%. The same as their raw. https://www.chewy.com/primal-rabbit-formula-nuggets-grain/dp/141872aimee
ParticipantReese B,
They do have to have mins and maxs. It sounds like they are just taking a chance here. Last time I looked at their labeling it made no sense and sadly there is not enough enforcement of regulations. Significant violations go unchecked. Best we as consumers can do is uncover the bad players warn others and move on.
Reese B
Member@Patricia , no, the freeze dried fat content is not the same as their raw. It should be 17% fat in the freeze dried if it was the same as they raw. If you re-read my email exchange with Primal, they admit that the fat content is different in both.
@aimee youâre right, I just get so angry when pet food companies blatantly lie. Since this whole grain free scare, Iâm totally at a loss at what to feed my dog (who has allergies to grain) Trying to find a substitute food without grains or legumes has been a nightmare. Then, when you think you found one, they canât give straight answers about their productsâŠsoooo frustrating! -
This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by
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