[Hound Dog Mom]

Saireah – I actually haven’t fed kibble (as a meal) in nearly three years. However, when I did feed kibble I switched to a new brand with a new protein source at the end of every bag and I rotated canned and fresh food toppers daily. Once your dog gets used to switching foods you shouldn’t need to transition gradually, you can just do it cold turkey.

Sully’s Mom – Yes – high levels of protein (preferably animal-based protein) is a very good things as dogs have a strong carnivorous bias and are designed to eat a primarily meat-based diet. When I fed kibble I never fed foods with less than 30% protein. My dogs now eat a raw diet with protein levels ranging between 45% and 55% at each meal.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Sully’s Mom –

If you can get Earthborn locally most pet food stores have a frequent buyer program – buy 10 bags get the 11th free.

Saireah –

I agree – Dr. Tim’s has AMAZING customer service and he’s very knowledgeable. I also agree that no food is perfect, this is why it’s important to rotate brands. Earthborn is a little heavy on the peas with some of their formulas but their price reflects that – it’s about $45 for a 28 lb. bag versus the $70+ you’d pay for an equal amount of many of the foods with a higher meat content. I do have to say though, their Primitive Natural doesn’t appear to use many vegetable protein boosters and it’s got a very high protein level (38%).

[Saireah]

Each grain-free Earthborn “flavor” has a different protein level. I had originally thought they were similar to the Fromm line — where you could swap them around with no problems. I went with Dr. Tim’s Kinesis grain-free over Earthborn after receiving samples from both brands because Earthborn favors pea protein and I’ve been really impressed with Dr. Tim answering my e-mails and his office assistant when she spoke to me over the phone to get my shipping address. My dog’s really liked Earthborn’s Coastal Catch sample, but they went crazy for Dr. Tim’s.

Dr. Tim’s is “meatier” than Earthborn. Earthborn has flat little rounded triangles, so easier to eat for smaller breeds. Dr. Tim’s are round nuggets.

Since you have another Fromm’s bag to go, I’d suggest requesting and/or purchasing samples if they’re available. 🙂

Just remember that there’s no “PERFECT” dog food. I have to keep telling myself that constantly. 😉

[Hound Dog Mom]

I wouldn’t feed Taste of the Wild due to the fact that it’s manufactured by Diamond. I think Merrick is a good food. Two other grain-free foods that are really high quality and wallet friendly (under $50 for the large bag) are Earthborn and Victor. These are two foods that don’t sacrifice meat content for price. NutriSource Grain-Free and 4Health Grain-Free are two other reasonably priced options although their protein content (and thus) is a little lower – these two are similar in quality to the Fromm Grain-Free line but they are priced accordingly (I believe the 4Health is around $36 for a 30 lb. bag and NutriSource is around $50 for a 30 lb. bag).

[Hound Dog Mom]

I wouldn’t say I’m down on Fromm exactly. I think Fromm is a very reputable company and they make decent food. I just don’t think they produce a product that is worthy of 5 stars. It’s mainly their grain-free line I take issue with. Most of their grain-free foods have less than 30% protein and are loaded with plant-based protein boosters and they cost nearly $70 for a 26 lb. bag. Never would I pay that kind of money for a food that low in protein and with a good chunk of the protein coming from peas.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi yevincent –

I realize Fromm is rated 4 stars. Fromm was just recently downgraded to 4 stars (thank god – I could never understand why that food was rated 5 stars!) but at the time I made the list the entire line was rated 5 stars. I have not yet had a chance to go in and change it. Within the next month I plan on updating this list and also making a list of grain-inclusive foods. I’m just strapped for time at the moment.

The calculation for the Wellness CORE was based on the actual calcium level sent to me by the company. I emailed them and asked for the average calcium level in the Wellness CORE Puppy Food based on their product analysis results.

I have the email saved and this was their response to me:

Dear Lydia,

Thank you for taking the time to write about Wellness CORE Puppy dry dog food.

This formula contains approximately 1.23% calcium.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Alyssa Martin
Representative
Consumer Affairs

000299852A

You’re basing your calculation on the max listed on their website. Companies will often list minimums and maximums that are quite a bit higher or lower than the actual amount in the food to allow for a margin of error. I chose to make the list based on average levels rather than maximums or minimums.

[Saireah]

Starbright:

My Quinn (lab/vizsla) was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at 1 year old. I switched her food to grain-free after discovering that, along with a higher protein. She needed to build muscle as she was favoring one side. She has hip dysplasia in both hips.

In terms of supplements, I can tell you what we’ve done that has made a phenomenal difference. She just turned two and there’s no way in the world I’d have thought she would be at this point. We were pretty certain she was going to need surgery (her range of motion was OK — but we just thought surgery would be more immediate than in the distant future).

As HDM suggests, a great diet with anti-inflammatory supplements was suggested to us by Iowa State University. Since being recommended, we’ve had her on Nutramax Cosequin DS Double-Strength Chewable Tablets. According to Iowa State, this is the only brand to be clinically proven. You will give her two a day for a month and one a day from then on (directions are on the bottle). Coupled with this, we also immediately started her on one tablet of fish oil per day — 1,000MG (but you may have to feed less/more — consult vet).

The diet change and supplements helped, but targeted exercise has made the difference, as well. Take your dog swimming. If she doesn’t like to swim, teach her to love it by way of rewards/playing. Swimming is the best for joint issues. Other options provided to us were walking in tall grass (makes her lift her legs all the way as opposed to close together/hopping), walking on a blown up air mattress (good for winter exercise), and frequent walks (as opposed to a long walk — more frequent is better).

Also — obviously weight. She’s a slim 43 pounds at the moment, but she did get to 50 pounds in the winter and my vet noticed it. Slim is always, always better — and I’ve had people say she’s too thin (mostly because I don’t think most people are accustomed to seeing healthy dogs — harsh, but true… I think a lot of dogs are overweight).

If you have any questions, let me know. I really enjoy talking about this subject because I couldn’t find enough information when this happened to us. It’s our personal experience, but Quinn is now running full-speed and playing for hours and hours daily. A definite turnaround.

Good luck. 🙂

[yevincent]

I want to point out that in the list you posted before, you said the Fromm Four Star Nutritionals grain-free is 5 star food. I read the review today, it said Fromm Four Star Nutritionals just earns 4 star (except one). Maybe you made a mistake in the list.
And the Wellness Core: Puppy has over 3.5g/1000 kcal calcium based on my calculation:
Calcium is 1.50%, 3,792 kcal per kilogram,
so I got 3.95g/1000 kcal.
You may want to double check them…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Definitely – a quality 4 or 5 star food with supplements would be the way to go. I’d personally go grain-free if possible as grains are inflammatory. I don’t really have any particular favorites – when I fed kibble I switched brands after every bag. Good luck!

[starbright26]

Thanks for clarifying that for me.. It looks like we’re in for a long road, but thankfully she isnt showing major symptoms yet.. Perhaps we’ll consider surgery. Until then basically any of the recommended 4star foods would work well in conjunction with the suppliments, correct? Any personal favorites I should check into?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi starbright –

Unfortunately if your dog has hip dysplasia she has hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a chronic degenerative condition and is not reversible. The condition will progress as she ages, although its difficult to predict the extend to which it will affect her as many factors are at play (degree of pain tolerance, size and weight of the dog, etc.). For some dogs hip dysplasia is crippling and for others it may never cause more than a mild stiffness with age. Anti-inflammatory supplements (tart cherry, omega 3’s, boswellia, turmeric, etc.) will certainly help manage pain and supplements such as glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM/hylaluronic acid (or whole foods containing these items) may help slow the joint deterioration to a certain degree – but they certainly won’t stop it. It will also be critical to keep her lean and active (low impact activities). Being that she’s over a year old calcium levels won’t affect anything at this point.

[starbright26]

Thanks for the reply.. I appreciate the advice on suppliments but I really dont thing her losing weight is my main concern.. I’m looking more for giudance on a longterm food to feed her that would benefit her joints and help cease the progression of the hip dysplasia if possible. Has anyone else been down this road before? Are suppliments more important or does the food made a larger impact.. Is grain free best for this situation? Being that she is over a year now, do the calcium levels still play a role? Sorry, Ive just been researching and reading all these posts which is only confusing me further.. Please help if you can… Thanks 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi dhayes –

An “all life stages” food is essentially the same thing as a “puppy” food. The AAFCO only recognizes 2 nutrient profiles: growth and adult maintenance. If a food meets the more stringent requirements for growth the company can choose to label the food as “all life stages” or “growth.” Canidae ALS and all of the Taste of the Wild foods are appropriate for all life stages. I wouldn’t really consider a Basset to be a large breed (the concern is generally for dogs that will be over 60 lbs. at maturity, although Bassets are somewhat prone to hip dysplasia so it may have been a good idea to have controlled calcium levels) and at 8 months of age the critical growth phase has passed regardless so calcium levels shouldn’t be a concern at this point. I’m not sure about the calcium levels in Canidae ALS but I do know the calcium levels are high in all of the TOTW formulas. I would say any quality all life stages formula would make a good choice at this point.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Pickles Mom]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
I am very happy to discover this thread! I have a 13 month basset hound puppy who is currently 50 lbs. His breeder was feeding him Canidae Life Stages when we brought home our puppy at 8 weeks and stayed on the same food until he was about 8 months old. We switched to a grain free Canidae brand, and then to Taste of the Wild grain-free “Pacific Stream” because of his itchiness.
After reading many of the posts I am concerned that 1) he was never eating puppy food; 2) the calcium level is too high in the foods we have been giving him; and 3) he was switched to adult food too early. I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts about what do to. I am considering changing his food to one of the brands on your list; however, I do not know if he should be eating large breed puppy food or large breed adult food (and the food needs to be grain-free and chicken free). We love our hound and want what is best for him. Thank you in advance for your advice 🙂

[InkedMarie]

Starbright,
Thank you for adopting your girl. I hope she continues to blossom. My go-to food when a dog needs to lose weight is Wellness Core reduced fat, feeding her the amount of food for what she *should* weigh. A good joint supplement is needed; I use Joint Mobility plus from Swanson Vitamins. It’s human, fine for dogs. Also, salmon oil. I prefer just salmon oil, nothing else; I get mine from Vital Choice,

Good luck!

[starbright26]

Hi, I am new to this site but am loving all the information I have found so far! However, I believe I’m overloading myself with info and its all running together, confusing the heck out of me! So I would love to just give a little information and get a little in return if possible.. We recently adopted a young feral pup and have been working to socialize/rehabilitate her. She is a “lethal white” (I despise that term) Catahoula mix- who is deaf and partially blind as well… We were this sweet girl’s last chance at adoption and I am so grateful we found her because she is blossoming in our household! Anyway, at about ten months of age, when we adopted her, she tore her ACL and was recovering from that when we noticed her limping getting worse despite strict confinement. We took her for X-rays and the vet diagnosed her with severe hip dysplasia in one of her hips. Sigh.. I could not make this up if I tried.. Luckily the other hip joint looks amazingly healthy! We have no idea about her past and as she seems to be somewhat of a genetic anomaly, we just want to do whatever we can to help her have a healthy, happy, hopefully long life! This girl deserves it. She is a healthy 70lbs, but we are trying to slim her down slightly. She is curently on Blue Buffalo now, but my question is if there is a better quality food that would be better suited to her joint needs or if supplimentation would suffice. I just read the calcium levels are most important earlier on and now that she is about 15 months old am I correct to assume that it is not the main concern anymore? Should we go grain-free to help with inflamation? Suppliments? What is my ideal path here? Please advise anyway you can.. I should mention we have several other animals and actual children, with another on the way, and will hopefully send them to college one day so we are certainly on a limited budget 🙂 THANK YOU!!!
Rebecca

[cinner00]

I have narrowed down the food to 3 based on availability and pricing for our needs. The following are the ones I’m looking at. The appear on the 4 star food list and also a top 10 list. I was wondering if anyone has a strong opinion or experience to help me narrow done my list for my large breed pup.
Innova Large Breed Puppy Dry Dog Food
Wellness Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy Health Puppy Food
Solid Gold Wolf Cub Large Breed Puppy Dog Food

[cinner00]

I have narrowed down the food to 3 based on availability and pricing for our needs. The following are the ones I’m looking at. The appear on the 4 star food list and also a top 10 list. I was wondering if anyone has a strong opinion or experience to help me narrow done my list for my large breed pup.

Innova Large Breed Puppy Dry Dog Food
Wellness Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy Health Puppy Food
Solid Gold Wolf Cub Large Breed Puppy Dog Food

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

Yes the calcium to phosphorus ratio is very important for all dogs and should be no less than 1:1 and no more than 2:1, with around 1.2:1 being considered ideal. However when it comes to large and giant breed puppies, the overall amount of calcium consumed is still very important. Even if a food had an appropriate ratio but the calcium levels were very high – say 2.2% calcium and 2% phosphorus (1.1:1) – I wouldn’t feel comfortable feeding the food to a large or giant breed puppy. All three of my dogs eat a raw diet and my most recent pup (now 11 months old) was weaned onto raw at 8 weeks old. To keep the calcium levels controlled while still keeping the calcium to phosphorus ratio balanced, fed her green tripe for around 25% of her diet. Green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (roughly 1:1) but has very low levels of each mineral (only about 0.3%).

[Angie]

Hello,

I am looking for advice for my friend’s dog. He has a one and a half year old male German Sheppard name Ranger. Ranger was on Acana Large Puppy Breed when he was younger then moved on Acana Large Breed Adult. My friend noticed Rangers breath was really bad so when he went in for his yearly exam so the vet did a urine test. They found that Ranger has Triple phosphates and 10-50 HPF.

I am not sure what that means but they moved him to Canadia dog food with cranberry juice in his water. He has been on Canidae dog food for the past 10 days and there is no improvement on his breath. He went in to get a B12 test and he was advised to wait 30 days to do a test for Phosphate levels.

Any advice on supplements, food or course of action would be really appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

• This topic was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Angie.

[EHubbman]

What are your thoughts RE Phosphorus x Calcium Levels (as phosphorous is used in Calcium absorption, right?)?

I was looking into foods for my Presa (spanish mastiff, essentially), and a good friend (some vet training, very into the raw diet) noted that while protein isn’t so much of a concern aside from the fact that too much might cause loose stools, said that the Cal/Phos Ratio is what was really important. From my lookings, it seems like 1:1.2-1.4 Cal/Phos is what people aim for in larger breeds.

Your thoughts?

[theBCnut]

This is a great place for info and Hound Dog Mom has made a google doc that lists great foods for large and giant breed puppies.

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

[cinner00]

Any suggestions on nutrition for my Bernese Mt./Lab/Shepherd mix pup? I just brought home a new pup. I would love to hear recommendations on a high quality large breed puppy food for this little guy to help keep him as healthy as possible. I know there are various health issues with all the breeds and I am looking for advice on food to help nutritionally as much as possible. He has been checked out and is very healthy.

[cinner00]

I just brought home a new pup. I would love to hear recommendations on a high quality large breed puppy food for this little guy to help keep him as healthy as possible. I know there are various health issues with all the breeds and I am looking for advice on food to help nutritionally as much as possible. He has been checked out and is very healthy.

[stitchwitch]

I have a 5.5m old shiloh shepherd. I switched her from the breeder’s food, taste of the wild, to fromm’s large breed puppy – seemingly no problems – she was on it for approx. 2 months. About 3 weeks ago I started feeding her 1 meal a day of raw – which was my plan from the start (and I know not to mix the two in the same meal). Over the past 3 weeks, perhaps a coincidence, she is vomiting frequently – but only after eating the kibble.

The first time she did it, it was a few hours after eating – I thought perhaps she wasn’t feeling good or had had too much excitement. Since then, it has happened a few times a week – usually right after eating the kibble.

If she vomits up her kibble meal (like she did at lunch today) and I give her raw for the meal – no problems.

It is almost as if, once her body experienced the raw, it doesn’t “like” the kibble. Could that be possible? Could it be that the problem is this specific kibble (fromm’s) and I should try another?

I would prefer to keep her on a partial kibble diet, not only because of the cost, but because there will be times she must be boarded and I’m not sure the kennel would be willing to handle a raw diet.

Suggestions? Advice?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Betsy –

I do enjoy the great dane lady’s website and think there is some good information on there, however I don’t agree with her feeding advice for puppies. If her aversion to grain-free and raw foods for large breed puppies was based on some sort of factual research or organized feeding trial I would have more respect for it, but it seems to me it’s solely based on the fact that she’s never tried feeding those foods to her puppies?? I’ve had great lucking feeding high protein grain-free foods to my bloodhound puppies, I’ve just kept calcium levels controlled for the first 8 months.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi arlenem –

Feeding a food with appropriate calcium levels is most crucial during the first 8 months or so. When puppies are young they can’t regulate their calcium absorption which is why high levels of calcium during the rapid growth phase can cause developmental orthopedic disease in large and giant breed puppies. Around 6 – 8 months puppies gain the ability to regulate calcium absorption. Once a large breed puppy is an adult their nutritional needs are no different than any other dog. I actually would avoid most “large breed adult” foods as they tend to be way too low in protein and loaded with fillers.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Idarlin –

I feel that the ideal diet is grain-free/starch free, high in animal-based protein and low in carbohydrates. This is why I personally feed my dogs a raw diet with free of grains and starches (potatoes, legumes, etc.). When it comes to kibble, a starch in some form or another (be it grains, potato, legumes, tapioca, etc.) is necessary to act as a binder. There are many that feel grain-free foods are superior to grain-inclusive foods because grains aren’t a natural part of the canine diet. However, neither are the starches used in grain-free foods – potato, legumes, tapioca, etc. Due to the fact that starch is a necessary evil when it comes to kibble I think the most important thing is to look for a food high in protein with a relatively large percentage of the protein being derived from animal sources. I think people get too caught up in grain-inclusive vs. grain-free and the industry is really playing into this – there are many new grain-free foods hitting the market that are horrible (low protein, loaded with vegetable based protein, etc. etc.) and people are paying big bucks for these foods just because the bag has the new buzzword “grain-free”. There are great grain-free foods and horrible grain-free foods and there are great grain-inclusive foods and horrible grain-inclusive foods. Concerning Innova Large Breed Puppy, it’s not a bad food by any means but it’s lower in protein than anything I’d use or recommend. It has only 24% protein, I wouldn’t use or recommend a kibble with less than 30% protein. I personally feed my crew protein levels in the 45% – 55% range.

If she’s chewing herself it could definitely be a food intolerance, but it could also be something environmental. Grains and common proteins such as chicken and beef are common causes of intolerances so you could certainly try a grain-free food with a more novel protein and see if things clear up.

[Anonymous]

HDM, thanks for the response. Is there anything wrong with feeding her a grain dog food like Innova?

Also she is very itchy a lot of the time. She scratches and gnaws on her fur/ skin retry often. Her skin does look a little dry but I’m worried it has something to do with a food allergy. She doesn’t strip her fur or anything but there is a spot on her head where she scratches that she is starting to lose spots of fur. It’s not too bad yet but worries me. Any advice?

[DogFoodie]

I would definitely be curious to see what grain inclusive foods you’d recommend, HDM. I still remember being surprised that the Great Dane Lady was strongly opposed to grain free foods for large breed puppies until about 80% of their adult size, due to lack of feeding trials.

Here’s a quote I took from her site:

“I do not recommend as a complete diet for your puppy, any grain free or raw diets, regardless of brand, for large breed growth. Not until they are 8-10 months old or 3/4 of their normal size, just to be on the safe side. No feed trials have been done on large/giant breeds on the grain free or raw diets to date, so I will not recommend them.

We KNOW we can raise them on a quality holistic kibble with a 10% raw component, if you wish, and have no problems, but not a totally raw or grain free diet, please!!”

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Idarlin –

Innova’s Large Breed Puppy formula has appropriate calcium levels for large and giant breed puppies and would make a good choice for your pup. The reason why it’s not included on this list is because this list is grain-free foods only – when I get some spare time I would like to compile a list of grain-inclusive foods as well.

[Anonymous]

Hi HDM,
I am new to the site (been reading through everything over the past few days) and had a couple of questions if you don’t mind. I have a 15 week old golden retriever/australian shepherd mix puppy who was 20 lbs as of Monday 6/15. I have been treating her as a large breed dog because I think she will be pretty close to 60 lbs. I too did not know any better and was feeding her Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies based on vet’s recommendation. After reading some things, I am in the process of switching her over to Innova for LBP. I did the math that you mentioned above and the Ca is 2.46. But, I didn’t see it on your list (I just found it today), and wanted to know what you thought of Innova. If you don’t think Innova will be a good choice for her, out of the ones on your list, what do you think may be best? She seems fine on both food shes had so far. She had a little bit of runny stool when I first introduced Innova, but is back to normal now. Thank you so much for your time!

[Sully’sMom]

Wow, that’s a lot to digest (no pun intended). Do you thoughts/info on Merrick Grain Free foods? I know they’re an excellent company, but I don’t know about their numbers…

[Hound Dog Mom]

You don’t need to consider protein – protein has no effect on developmental orthopedic disease. What you want to look at is calcium per 1,000 kcal. You can use calcium percentages as a guideline but they aren’t super accurate because they don’t account for differences in caloric density – for example if Brand X is 1.3% calcium and contains 500 kcal. per cup and Brand Y is 1.3% calcium as well but contains only 350 kcal. per cup your dog will be consuming much more calcium eating brand Y to fulfill it’s energy needs than it would be eating on brand X. 1.9% calcium is very high – you can rule out a food this high in calcium without even calculating the calcium on a kcal. basis. Generally foods with over 1.2% calcium are going to be too high although I’ve seen a few very calorie-dense foods in the 1.3%-1.4% range that are okay. To calculate grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal. you would multiply 1,000 grams by the percent calcium to obtain grams of calcium per kilogram. You would then divide grams of calcium per kilogram by calories per kilogram to obtain grams of calcium per calorie. You then multiply grams of calcium per calorie by 1,000 to obtain grams of calcium per 1,000 calories – aim for no more than 3.5 g.

I’ll use TOTW’s Southwest Canyon as an example:

1.9% calcium as fed/3,600 kcal./kg.

(1,000 g.)(0.019) = 19 grams calcium per kg.
(19 g. calcium/kg.)/(3,600 kcal./kg.) = 0.00528 g. calcium per kcal.
(0.00528 g. calcium per kcal.)(1,000 kcal.) = 5.28 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.

This food has over 1 1/2 times as much calcium as a large/giant breed puppy should have.

[Sully’sMom]

Still me – when I’m looking at food am I supposed to look at BOTH calcium g per 1,000 kcal AND protein ?

[Sully’sMom]

Hi again, the more I read the more I’m confused! I went to the TOTW web site and just to use one variety as an example the Southwest Canyon Canine Formula says the calcium is “1.9%, as fed”

Isn’t that the number to look for? Or is it something else? I’m looking to transition my Large Breed lab puppy to a grain free adult food. Currently, he’s on Fromm, which I know is excellent, but their grain-free is much more expensive that either TOTW or Merrick.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi hmurray – The calcium levels are much too high in Eagle Pack Large/Giant Breed Puppy formula dry dog food for me to feel comfortable recommending it. Based on their stated minimum the calcium level is 4.3 grams per 1,000 kcal. and the actual level is likely a bit higher than that. You should be looking for a food with no more than 3.5 grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal. In the past I have used the Power Adult formula for my adult dog and I thought it was a great quality food for the price, I still frequently recommend Eagle Pack. I just wouldn’t feed it to a large or giant breed puppy.

[hmurray]

Hound Dog Mom – What are your thoughts on Eagle Pack’s Large/Giant breed dry puppy food
for an english mastiff puppy or any other giant breed?

[yevincent]

thanks, pattyvaughn!
I will try several food and find a perfect ratio!

By the way, Hound dog mom said “For a large breed puppy you’d want to feed a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less”. What does “less” mean? Can someone tell me a range?

Thank you all!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi yevincent –

Yes – calcium needs to be converted to a dry matter basis for wet foods due to the high moisture content. Calculating calcium levels on a kcal. basis (versus percent of weight basis) is the most accurate way to evaluate the appropriateness of foods as it accounts for varying caloric densities between different foods. For a large breed puppy you’d want to feed a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less. I’ll walk you through the calculation. Let’s say the food comes in a standard 13.2 oz. can, has 400 kcal. per can and the company tells you there is 0.3% calcium on an as-fed basis.

1) Convert 13.2 oz. to grams (easier to perform calculations using grams): (13.2 oz.)(28 grams/1 oz.) = ~397 g.

2) Calculate how many grams of calcium are in the can of food: (397 g.)(0.003) = 1.19 g. calcium per can.

3) Calculate how many grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal.: (1.19 g. calcium per can)/(400 kcal. per can) = 0.00298 g. calcium per kcal. (0.00298 g. calcium per kcal.)(1,000 kcal.) = ~2.98 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.

————————————

If you wanted the calcium level on a percent basis:

1) 100% – % Moisture = % Dry Matter
2) [(As Fed Calcium %)/(% Dry Matter)] X 100%

BTW – I’d highly recommend Tripett as a canned topper for large breed puppies. It’s not a complete and balanced food as it’s green tripe only but it makes a great topper if you’re feeding a balanced kibble. Green tripe is high in protein and naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but contains very low levels of each (only about 0.3% calcium on a dry matter basis if I recall correctly). The best part is dogs go nuts for it.

[Cyndi]

This might help too

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

& I’m sure if you have any other questions, the more knowledgeable people here would love to answer them… Good luck! 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Cyndi.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi NiseyNorris –

If you head over to the large breed puppy topic area there’s a lot of information there about appropriate foods for large breed puppies (it’s located in the “Diet and Health Issues” forum) and even a list of grain-free foods that are appropraite. A fried of mine got a golden pup last summer and the pup did really well on the Wellness Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy formula – she tried Blue Buffalo Life Protection Large Breed Puppy first and it made the pup really sick. Even if the Wellness does work out though I’d recommend rotating in a least two or three other brands on occasion – it’s not healthy to feed the same food continuously. Look for a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less (roughly 1.2% calcium or less – be sure to contact the company to obtain the actual calcium level, don’t base calculations off the minimum stated on the package). A food doesn’t need to state “large breed” on the bag, it just needs to meet AAFCO requirements for growth or all life stages and have appropriate calcium levels.

[NiseyNorris]

Hi everyone! I’m new to this forum but have been obsessing over dog food since we found a golden to adopt! Will be getting him in a few weeks! He’s currently eating Purina Puppy Chow (sigh). I got some Wellness Super5 large breed puppy to try, but also would like to have a few backups in case that one doesn’t agree with him. So far I’ve found 4health puppy from Tractor Supply and also have been looking at Blue Life Protection large breed puppy, but the “life bits” is kind of turning me off and I’ve seen some negative reviews on here. It seems like the life bits would be hard to keep in the proper ratio with the kibble pieces..anyway..if anyone has good suggestions for me I’d appreciate it. The Wellness was about $2 a lb and I really don’t want to spend more than that if I don’t have to for a good quality food. I do love the brand tho..my cat has done excellent on it for most of his life so far.

[Anonymous]

Wow, lots of info to sort through here. After some debate I had decided on the Wellness Core Puppy which is on the list floating around here. But when I was looking at the Wellness website I noticed the Super 5 Mix Large Breed Puppy which lists the calcium differently than the Core – not less than 1% as opposed to not more than 1.5%. Does anyone know the actual calcium level for their Large Breed Puppy? It seems odd to me that they would list the levels this way for a food specifically for large breed puppies if they really were on board with the whole controlled calcium?

[sctigergirl81]

I’m sorry, but the above post is inaccurate. Great Danes are giant breed, not large – and this may seem like a small discrepancy, but not when it comes to feeding a great dane puppy. I am a great dane owner myself, and it is paramount to feed the correct percentage to a great dane puppy or you will have huge health problems down the road, and perhaps very soon. The link below maps out exactly how you should feed a great dane. Hope this helps!

http://www.all-about-great-danes.com/feeding-great-danes.html

[hmurray]

HDM – What are your thoughts on Eagle Pack’s Large/Giant breed dry puppy food? Are the calcium and phosphorus levels appropriate for an english mastiff puppy or any other giant breed?

[Saireah]

Thank you SO much, HDM and Marie.

I actually contacted Dr. Tim’s last night through e-mail and already have a response. We briefly talked around Christmas, too. I agree — fantastic (and, more importantly, personable) customer service. What appeals to me the most is the price, too. He mentioned that Kinesis Grain Free would be fine for both of my dogs, as well. He’s sending me a 5lb sample of the grain-free at half price (which was very kind of him to offer to cut the price in half).

Earthborn grain-free is really intriguing, too! A better price than Fromm’s and it looks like there’s different grain-free flavors that I could switch between every other bag to spice up their meal a bit. Side-note: I LOVE that Earthborn plants a tree if you send in the UPC.

EARTHBORN GRAIN-FREE:
Primitive Naturals: 38% protein / Calcium: not listed on GA on official site? I sent them an e-mail.
Great Plains: 34% protein / Calcium: 1.50%
Coastal Catch: 32% protein / Calcium: 1.30%
Meadow Feast: 26% protein / Calcium: 1.20%
* Would likely not feed Meadow Feast due to protein level and rotate between Primitive Naturals, Great Plains, and Coastal Catch.

DR. TIM’S KINESIS GRAIN-FREE:
32% protein / Calcium: 1.51%
* If I were to feed Dr. Tim’s, I’d probably feel better about use wet food every now and again from my Pawalla box on top of it to add a bit of extra flavors whereas, with Earthborn, they’d be getting a different flavor rotation to keep things interesting.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease. You’re right about recalls, too — a primary factor is whether or not they were precautionary or if they sat on it until they had reports of dogs being ill. Big difference.

I’m so happy I posted here. The cost per feeding for us makes these two brands at the top of the list for me. My babies are worth all the money in the world to me, but it’s nice to use part of that money to pamper them with my subscription boxes and still feed a great quality food at a reasonable price. I like that brands such as these recognize that $65+ for a bag of food that’s less than 30lb is just… unreasonable for people with multiple pets in the household. I’d certainly be OK with that if I just had one dog… and not a dog that’s practically a horse. 😉

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi saireah –

Now that your pup is 8 months old I think it would be safe to be a bit more lenient on calcium levels – dogs can usually start regulating calcium absorption around this age. I think Dr. Tim’s would be a great choice – it’s a very high quality food and made by a reputable company. I have also found Dr. Tim’s to have excellent customer service. Although, I feel I should add that I personally feel “recall history” isn’t a very helpful metric when trying to determine the quality of a food or the risk of a future recall. Some of the most reputable companies in the industry (i.e. The Honest Kitchen) have had recalls, often times these recalls are precautionary. On the other hand, just because a company has never had a recall doesn’t mean they can’t have one tomorrow and some companies downplay and/or ignore issues with their foods just to avoid having a recall or remove products from shelves using terms such as “withdrawal” rather than recall (examples: the Chinese chicken jerky issue – there was obviously something wrong with these products however companies avoided recalling the products in spite of numerous deaths and illnesses, the current issues with Blue Buffalo and Nutro foods that are being ignored by the companies and Great Life’s product “withholding”). You need to know the company and know whether they can be trusted – if they’ve had a recall find out what the recall was for, whether it was precautionary (proactive) or whether the company waited until animals got sick before they recalled the product and whether or not the company is a repeat offender (i.e. Diamond – numerous recalls). With that said, some other “recall free” brands I’d feel comfortable recommending in addition to Dr. Tim’s are: Earthborn, Annamaet (as Marie suggested), Victor, Nature’s Logic, Artemis and NutriSource.

[InkedMarie]

I’m not HDM but I will suggest a few choices that fit your criteria: Dr Tim’s, Brothers Complete, Annamaet are the first that come to mind. Mind you, I know nothing about large breed puppies or calcium but those foods have had no recalls, they all have grain free and I believe all are all life stages. Dr Tim’s will be the cheapest of those three and do keep in mind, you get what you pay for. Not all of the time but when you have a company that has had no recalls and has a good amount of meat in it, that’s going to cost you.
If you have two big dogs and have to keep at a lower priced food, you may not get the higher quality.

[Saireah]

I was compelled to post in this thread again after I read Hound Dog Mom’s post on the grain-free Four Star Nutritionals page by Fromm: “I think Fromm is a good company but their food is way overpriced for what it is. A 26 lb. bag of the grain free is (depending on the variety) $65 – $70 at my feed store. No way would I pay $65 – $70 for 26 lbs.of food that only has 28% – 30% protein. IMO – there are much better options where you can actually get some meat for your money.”

Can you clarify what other options you personally find suitable? I value your opinion from this thread and have been considering switching my puppy/adult to Fromm’s 4 Star Nutritionals — but am dismayed by the downgraded rating save the salmon recipe which was due to was “due to a change in our minimum protein requirements to qualify for the 5-star category.” (Thanks Dr. Mike!)

Updated stats: I have one 8 month old lab/mastiff mix (64 pounds) and a 2 year old lab/viszla mix (43 pounds). Currently, they are on Fromm’s Large Breed Puppy Gold and Large Breed Adult Gold. I’d love to switch them to something that’s:

* Grain-free
* Suitable for all life stages
* Has not had recalls

I’ve been intrigued by BOGO Bowl as it’s an Iowa company, but it’s simply too much money despite it being for a wonderful cause. What I absolutely loved about the idea of Fromm’s grain-free line is that there’s tons of flavors to choose from and I could mix it up a bit, but the price tag is just not wonderful for a bag of food that’s less than 30lbs when you have TWO big dogs.

I was considering Dr. Tim’s (grain-free Kinesis), but I noticed that they’re not on your list likely due to the calcium (1.51%)? I’d love to find something that’s a 30lb+ bag of food for $50 – $55. I as intrigued by Dr. Tim’s because both the grain inclusive and grain-free are 5 stars on DFA. Now that he’s passed 8 months, do you think I could switch him to Dr. Tim’s?

Would you mind sharing what you personally feed?

Also, as I’ve recently subscribed to Pawalla, they include wet foods in their boxes. Do you suggest adding wet foods to add some variety as a topping to dry every once in a while?

Thanks for your suggestions! 🙂