[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jules –

If you were feeding only canned or raw foods, yes you should watch the calcium level. If you are only using them as a topper to a kibble with appropriate levels of calcium, I wouldn’t worry about it. I am getting together a list of suitable commercially available raw foods, I don’t plan on doing canned foods in the near future though – sorry! What I did with Mabel when she was a pup was to replace about 25% of what my other two adults were eating with raw green tripe which has a low, but balanced, calcium to phosphorus ratio (I make homemade raw). Sounds like we’re on nearly opposite sides of the country – I’m located in northern New York about 15 miles from the Canadian border!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jessica1 –

The Organix puppy formula is 1.05% calcium and has 2.89 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. – so yes, it’s a good choice. It would be perfectly fine to use both grain-inclusive and grain-free foods in a rotational feeding program. Many people are under the assumption that dry food is good for dental health – you’re not the only one. For the most part, this is a myth. Some dogs that thoroughly chew their kibble may may derive some benefit in comparison to a soft food however this benefit is minimal and will not be enough to prevent periodontal disease and – in my experience – most dogs don’t thoroughly chew kibble and therefore would receive no benefit. The only food that promotes dental health is a raw meaty bones diet and any dog eating commercial food, be it kibble or canned food, will need their teeth brushed on a regular basis or they will get eventually develop periodontal disease to some degree. Your vet telling you that your dog will have good dental health as long as he eats kibble would be the equivalent of your dentist telling you that you don’t need to brush your teeth as long as you eat crunchy foods – kind of silly, right? About 85% of dogs fed commercial foods over the age of 3 have some degree of periodontal disease, oftentimes it goes unnoticed by owners. Many people think “doggie breath” is normal, but it’s not. A dog’s breath should have no odor. All of the Organix canned foods appear that they’re labeled for adult maintenance, however if you’re only using the canned food as a topper and the bulk of the puppy’s diet is going to be a dry food approved for growth or all life stages this is fine. You could also top the Organix puppy kibble with a canned food labeled for growth from another brand, there’s no reason you can mix different brands of kibble and canned food. I hope that helps!

[londoncalling1996]

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply to my questions. It’s really so helpful, I find it all a bit overwhelming. I made the trip to Los Altos today to the pet store with LOTS of good dog food options. I got 7 small sample bags of different kinds of Fromm dry kibble for Lux to try. I also got a can of Trippett, Green beef tripe, duck and salmon. (I haven’t opened it yet though, got to psych myself up for that I think! :-)) And a can each of Ziwipeak venison&fish recipe and Nature’s logic rabbit dinner. After reading your advise, I thought, “well, cost isn’t really an isssue, man, what we paid for this dog!”, but then I got to the pet store and saw the prices! If my 16 year old is going to go to college, Lux might have to eat some kibble! These three cans I got cost 15 bucks and with a berner in the house, we might be eaten out of house and home! I am looking on line at some of the on line sites you suggested. Thanks! I do like to shop local and will, but since it’s about 20 miles to the nearest pet store with good food, I can justify not using the local shop for all of our dog food needs all the time. So, now you have me thinking about wet and raw food, do I also need to worry about the calcium content in those for the first 8 or 10 months of Lux’s life? Maybe you have a list of your favorite canned foods for Large and Giant Breed puppies that have the right amount of calcium? (Fingers crossed!) Where are you located? I’m on the San Francisco peninsula, about 20 miles south of SF. Thank you for everything! Cheers, Jules

[Jessica1]

Hello H.D.M, Thank you so much for all your insight. My puppy is between 9-10 wks and a mix between GSD and Bernese Mountain Dog (they think, he is a rescue). He currently weighs 15lbs, so I know he will be a big boy. He was being feed Pedigree so I wanted to start to transition him right away to a better quality food, for health and developmental reasons. I was getting confused with all the info that is out there but finding you has been great, informative and easy to understand.
I really wanted to do the non grain. But, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to start a non grain food since the costs are high I didn’t want to switch if I couldn’t keep it up. So I put him on Organix Puppy (dry), due to the ingredients the higher standards of organics. Would this be listed on your new list as a good choice?
My second question, you state rotational feeding, would a rotation with non grain and grain inclusive be a good idea? Lastly, I was always told (by my vet) kibble was better for their teeth than canned food, but you state canned food is better for their health, so until now I never gave can food much thought. In the Organix brand I didn’t see a can puppy formula, are their big differences that I should be looking for if I want to start giving him canned? Thank you.

[sharfie]

So, I am a bit confused. Right now I am feeding my puppy NV Turkey and adding Bravo Buffalo Boneless as a topper. If I were to use Bravo Balance or a canned food, which is a complete and balanced raw food, would it raise the calcium to a level that is too high?

Thanks so much for your help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi londoncalling1996 –

That’s too bad your store didn’t carry any of the foods. 🙁 If you’re not opposed to online ordering there are many sites that sell a wider variety of foods than you could find in a store and they also typically have lower prices – most also offer free shipping with no weight limit when you spend a certain amount of money (usually orders over $49). I’d recommend checking out wag.com, chewy.com, petflow.com and naturalk9supplies.com. Also the new lists should give you many additional options to choose from.

I definitely feel that, if it’s financially feasible, non-dry foods should be fed as a sole diet or at least in addition to kibble. Dry food is actually the worst thing to feed a dog – however to to budget and time constraints it, understandably, comprises the bulk of most dog’s diets. I urge you to check out this article Dr. Marty Goldstein (one of my all time favorite veterinarians) posted on his blog, it ranks the different types of food from best to worst: drmarty.com/what-should-i-feed-my-pet-for-best-health/

If you add wet food you should count account for this in her daily food intake – just monitor her weight and if she’s gaining too much start feeding a little less. One of my all time favorite wet food toppers (especially for large breed puppies) is Tripett. I like Tripett for several reasons: 1) high protein/moderate fat/low carbohydrate (ideal); 2) it has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but very low amounts of each, so it can effectively be used to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio in any food fed to a large breed puppy without the risk of throwing off the balance and 3) dogs go absolutely nuts for it (people hate it – if you feed it you’ll see why – but they love it). The only thing I want to note with Tripett is that it’s not a complete and balanced food (it’s just canned green tripe) so if you do feed it make sure it doesn’t exceed 20% of the meal or you could throw off the nutritional balance. Some other more balanced canned foods that I like that could account for over 20% of the meal are: ZiwiPeak, Addiction, Nature’s Logic, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Merrick. Dr. Mike has a great compilation of high quality canned foods over on the review site as well. If you’re looking for a quality yet budget friendly canned food (canned food can be quite pricey, especially when feeding a large breed puppy) I’d recommend checking out 4Health (available at Tractor Supply, $0.99 per can), Pure Balance (available at Walmart, $1 per can), Kirkland Cuts in Gravy (available at Costco, $0.79 per can), Whole Earth Farms (available at many online retailers about $1.50 per can) – these foods are all 4 – 5 star quality. Some other toppers you could use are dehdyrated foods (i.e. The Honest Kitchen, Grandma Lucy’s, etc.) – these foods are about the same consistency as a stew type canned food when rehydrated, a balanced frozen or freeze-dried commercial raw food (freeze-dried rehydrates to canned food consistency) or fresh toppers such as sardines, eggs, plain yogurt or left over lean meat or steam veggies from your dinner.

Digestive aids aren’t necessary, but many feel they’re beneficial. Many of the regulars here supplement with probiotics and enzymes. I don’t supplement with either because my dogs eat a raw diet (naturally occurring enzymes) and consume raw green tripe (rich in enzymes and probiotics) and kefir (rich in probiotics) on a regular basis. If feeding cooked food only (like kibble and canned) I do feel that enzymes and probiotics can provide benefit.

[londoncalling1996]

Hi Hound Dog Mom, I REALLY appreciate all you research and hard work compiling all the information on what to feed Large and Giant Breed Puppies, in our case, our 11 week old Bernese Mtn Dog. I printed your recommendations and took the list to our local pet and feed store. I was leaning to Fromm because it’s one of the lowest in calcium. The Fromm website listed our local pet and feed store as carrying two of their lines. Not only do they not carry Fromm, they don’t carry any of the foods on your list except Canine Caviar, which you said in a recent post that you are taking off the list. I can see this isn’t going to be so straight forward! I did call a pet store about 20 miles away and they carry Fromm, so I will go tomorrow and pick some up for LUX. Can you please tell me if feeding her just the dry food is good for her? Or should I add some protein? What about the green tripe? What about digestive aids? Should I add of of those to her diet? I do put a little wet food into the end of her kong and freeze it to give her a treat when I put her in her crate at bedtime. Should I count that as food and subtract some kibble in one of her daytime meals? Also, what do you recommend as a wet food to use in the kong and/or as a topper occasionally on her kibble? I want to do the best I can for her in her life and especially in the coming formative months! Thanks so much!!!! Cheers, Jules

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi julez4you –

The calcium levels in this particular formula are appropriate for a large breed puppy and it is an all life stages food however – imho – it’s way too low in protein and fat. If you do feed it, I would definitely recommend topping with a high protein canned food or adding some fresh meat/eggs/etc. I definitely feel high protein is preferable. I’m a big fan of THK and, in fact, my two year old was weaned onto THK and ate it until she was 8 months old – Love was a staple in the rotation.

I completely understand where you’re coming from with the raw thing. Commercial raw is very expensive – especially for large dogs. I could never afford commercial raw for my two given the amount that they eat. I’m able to do homemade fairly cheaply but it does get quite time consuming.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi DellUSN –

Yes – I feel that the sooner a rotational feeding program is implemented the better. There are several reasons foods should be rotated – there is no “best” or “perfect” food so switching brands will help to mitigate the shortcomings of feeding any one brand for an extended period of time, feeding a variety of foods helps to foster a strong and diverse population of microorganisms in the gut and by having several “go to” foods you’ll be able to make a quick switch in the event of a recall or formula change. Some also believe that rotating foods helps to decrease the risk of the dog developing a sensitivity to a particular ingredient later in life.

Initially, you may need to gradually transition your pup when switching brands. You would do this by feeding 25% new/75% old for a few days, then moving to 50/50 for a few days, then 75/25 for a few days, then transitioning entirely to the new food. If your pup is experiencing loose stools during the transition a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin and/or probiotics may help. My two dogs were both started on a rotational feeding plan upon coming home at 8 weeks old and neither experienced any digestive upset – but it does depend on the dog.

As far as which brands to feed, for the next four months or so I would recommend keeping him on a controlled calcium food. Any of the kibbles on my list would be comparable to Wellness CORE. I’m currently in the process of updating the list and by the end of this week or beginning of next week I should have a revised grain-free list, a grain-inclusive list and a raw list posted.

There really is no rhyme or reason to rotational feeding – everyone has their own method. I haven’t fed kibble quite a few years but for my last dog that ate kibble I got a new brand with a new protein source at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned food and/or fresh food “toppers” daily. When I got Gertie (currently two years old) I rotated between The Honest Kitchen’s (dehydrated) Love, Embark, Thrive and Zeal formulas and fed a different variety each day, I also mixed in a can of Tripett with her breakfast and gave her either a raw egg, a tin or sardines or plain yogurt at dinner. When she was 8 months old I switched her to a raw diet. Mabel (my one year old) transitioned to a raw diet as soon as she came home at 8 weeks. On their homemade raw diets my dogs get something completely different at each meal.

I would highly recommend adding “toppers” if you’re feeding kibble as the sole diet. Toppers will boost the “species-appropriateness” by adding some extra protein, moisture and providing your dog with some fresh, less processed food. Some people believe canned foods are unhealthy, however they’re actually much healthier than dry food – they’re less processed, higher in protein/lower in carbohydrates and have a high moisture content. The same applies to dehydrated foods and raw foods. If you’re adding a balanced canned, dehydrated or raw food you can top with as much as you want. “People food” is great too – any left over lean meat or veggies from your dinner, eggs, tinned sardines, plain yogurt, kefir and cottage cheese are all cheap and very healthy foods (just keep unbalanced extras such as these to 20% or less of the meal or you could risk throwing of the nutritional balance of the kibble).

Hope that helps! 🙂

[DellUSN]

Hello, Hound Dog Mom.

I’ve been searching around this site for a little while now and I’ve noticed your activity and knowledge about pet foods. I signed up so that I could attempt to contact you directly through private message, but I guess that’s not possible here. Either way, I’ve been reading a lot of your advice on here and I had a couple questions for you. I have a 4 month old Chocolate Lab (40 pounds) named Rooster who I just got a couple weeks ago. Having studied to become an Registered Vet Tech before I joined The Navy, I understood that importance of nutrition for large breed puppies, or any breed of puppy for that matter. After some research I decided to go with a 4 pound bag of Wellness CORE Puppy Formula. His transition over to the food went very smoothly and he’s been devouring it, so I bought him a 26 pound bag. I currently feed him 4 cups a day dry kibble (2 AM, 2 PM) and he’s doing well on the schedule. I read a post that you made about rotating dog’s brand of food and source of protein. I was curious if this was something that should be implemented at young age and some other brands you recommended for my pup. Also, I was very worried about my dog and people food because I’ve seen so many people just go nuts feeding there dogs junk food. He has not been exposed to any people food yet, but I’d like to get him on some raw meats and bones if possible. At what age would he be ready for that and what sorts of things would you recommend for him in that field? I really anticipate your reply and appreciate any input you offer. Thank you!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi juelz4you –

There have been some issues with obtaining the Canine Caviar information (there is actually a thread about this). When I created the list about a year ago the calcium level I used was listed as an actual (not min). I’ve been trying to contact the company for a week now (via email and phone) and have received no response so this food will be removed from the list. I’m currently in the process of updating the list and creating a grain-inclusive list.

[wallyworld]

I was looking into some grain inclusive large breed puppy foods and below is what Nutro emailed me, just in case anyone is interested. I did request actual or average %. They just sent what is already posted on their website, not very helpful…

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. We value the opinions of our consumers and take their feedback very seriously.

NUTRO® NATURAL CHOICE® LARGE BREED PUPPY LAMB MEAL & RICE contains a minimum Calcium content of 1.0%, and a maximum of 1.5%. This formulation contains a minimum of 0.9% Phosphorus, and a maximum of 1.3%.

NUTRO® NATURAL CHOICE® LARGE BREED PUPPY CHICKEN, WHOLE BROWN RICE & OATMEAL contains a minimum Calcium content of 1.0%, and a maximum of 1.5%. This formulation contains a minimum of 0.9% Phosphorus, and a maximum of 1.3%.

[julez4you]

Hound Dog Mom-
Thank you for all the research and info you’ve shared regarding a list of quality foods for Giant Breeds. I have a 9 week old Great Dane pup that the breeder had on Purina One that I just switched over to Petcurean Go! But after learning the max levels of calcium/ phosphorous- I’m not sure that’s the food I want to stick with.

I considered Canine Caviar as I’m a fan of their ingredients and like that the food is extruded vs. baked, but in reviewing the nutritional levels on their website (also noted in the list you prepared)- the 1% calcium level is listed as a min (not a max.) When I tried calling customer service to obtain the max levels, I was told they do not publish a max since the levels vary which made me very nervous.

I know you had indicated that you called and/or emailed all the companies on your list for max levels where they were not indicated. Did you receive 1% as the max from Canine Caviar?

Thanks!

[Gemma60537]

I saw this the other day and wanted to wait to chime in…I have fed Canine Caviar for about two and a half years. I learned about it through my friend/breeder who is an acquaintance of the founder, which is Jeff Baker who was mentioned as a good source of info. We had three senior dogs very close in age who passed away as each one hit 13, so now with my 2 year old Lab and my 10 week old Lab puppy I am NEUROTIC about anything that hits their bodies. I believe strongly in my Canine Caviar.

They are a pretty small company, so they probably do not have vast numbers of customer service people to answer questions, but my friend/breeder who made me aware of this brand swears by it with all of her dogs…and she’s one of those breeders who LOVES her dogs and carefully does a litter once or twice a year. I don’t think there’s some awful cover up over at CC. I know they are extremely cautious with their product, so it seems way more likely to me to be a printer error versus an error in the recipe of the food.

Personally I feed the Chicken & Pearl Millet formula to my 10 week old pup just like I fed it to my 2 year old since it’s so similar to the large breed puppy formula. My breeder says she’s been feeding it to her pups for 10 years, before their large breed pup formula was available.

[sharfie]

I was wondering, at what age does the level of calcium in food not become an issue. I have a 5.5 month old Golden Retriever and currently have him on a rotation of low calcium food.

[londoncalling1996]

Oops, just figured out the STAR ratings, your own reviews of the food. Okay, got that! Thanks!

[londoncalling1996]

I am hoping to do the best for our new, 11 week old Bernese Mountain Dog pup, Lux. We had a Berner, Bailey, who died way too young (3-1/2) and it took us a long time to get over the loss and risk another one (and their relatively short life expectancy) joining our family. We are hoping Lux will live a good long life, well past her predicted expectancy. So, here I am! I have been looking thru this wonderfully informative website, thank you, which is helping me, but also making my brain spin a bit! I have a couple questions, the first (I can’t seem to find anywhere here) is about the 4 and 5 star foods. What is the difference? Digestive aid, is this only if my dog develops a problem, like throwing up, or would it be beneficial for life? Also, toppers, like the green tripe, is that something I should give our pup? The breeder was feeding her Ekanuba Large Breed Puppy so I bought a big bag of it. Doesn’t sound like it’s a good choice from what I’v read here. I heard at a pet store, they used to be a better dog food before being bought out by a big agro corp. (If that’s true). I’ve printed your list of recommended Large and Giant Breed Puppy foods and I will take that with me to buy Lux some new food tomorrow. Anyhow, Hound Dog Mom, thanks for all your hard work and puppy love! Cheers, Jules

[Jessica1]

I just adopted a puppy from a rescue, his mom and her puppies were dumped. The mom is a smaller German Shepherd and the vet thinks he has Burmese Mountain Dog. He is the cutest and sweetest “little” guy. I can guess this is going to be a big boy. Ever since I considered adopting him I started doing research on dog foods, they have changed a lot since my last dog.
I feel like I’m studying for an exam and failing. I am so confused at this point. I looked into brands like ; Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Blue Wilderness, Canine Caviar, Innova, Natures Variety, etc etc … After speaking to many people they stated that the higher end brands were to rich for their dogs and or created loose bowls. I’ve looked at the med end, but not all that happy with some of the ingredients. I loved the information on the, “Large Breed Puppy Food List” with the calcium percentages, and the food with rabbit as the main ingredient sounded to be like one of the best meats to use. But I just don’t know which might work out best for him. I was able to bring him home today and they have him on Pedigree so I want to wean him off this as soon as possible. Also, I would like to find a good food that won’t break me. I don’t mind paying a little more for better quality but some of the pricing is way out there.
I really want something that is good for him but it has to be something he enjoys. Oh and I’m looking for a dry food.
If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations for me I would greatly appreciate it.

[theBCnut]

I’m not HDM but I can answer the “Not recognized” question. AAFCO sets minimum standards for what must be in dog food to sustain life. That doesn’t mean that those things that are not in the AAFCO nutrient profiles are not good to have. Some companies go way beyond the minimums set by AAFCO. Frankly, there in’t a single food I would let my dogs touch that doesn’t go way beyond the minimal standards set by AAFCO. So this company is informing you that they has ingredients that they believe are important, but AAFCO doesn’t even set a minimum for them.

[Hershy]

Hello, again, HDM,
Still searching for the best food to meet quality for a price I can afford. Have ruled out the Kirkland-wasn’t happy with many reviews I read. Wellness Core Puppy is on your list of favorite foods in the “grain free” list.
Do you know yet if Wellness Large Breed Puppy will be on your Grain inclusive list? Calcium (min) is nice and low. I’m leaning toward this one for now. Also wondered what the asterisk comment means relating to food quality. “Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO…” – do they mean these ingredients are of no benefit for the puppy, and a waste to add, or maybe amount of it not enough of to do the job? I realize they are not the bare bones nutrients a dog needs, but why do they put this on the bag? Seems the comment would be more useful on the bag that does NOT have these ingredients? ; ). I think I’m giving this way too much thought..

Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Deboned Whitefish, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Peas, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Salmon Meal (a natural source of DHA-Docosahexaenoic Acid), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Tomatoes, Natural Chicken Flavor, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil (a natural source of DHA – Docosahexaenoic Acid), Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Salt, Minerals [Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite], Vitamins [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement], Choline Chloride, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation products
Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min.) 26.0%, Crude Fat (min.) 12.0%, Crude Fiber (max.) 4.5%, Moisture (max.) 11.0%, Calcium (min.) 1.0%, Phosphorus (min.) .90%, Vitamin E (min.) 150IU, Omega 6* (min.) 2.5%, Omega 3* (min.) .50%, DHA .137#37;, Beta-Carotene* (min.) 5 mg/kg, Lycopene* (min.) .25 mg/kg, Taurine* (min.) .09%, Total Micro-Organisms* (min.) 20,000,000 CFU/lb. *Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.

Thanks!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by Hershy.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by Hershy.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI alanysrayne –

The calcium guidelines apply to wet food as well if it’s going to be comprising a significant portion (>20%) of your pup’s diet. If you just plan on using a small amount as a topper don’t worry about it too much. As long as you’re keeping it to 20% or less of the meal I’d highly recommend Tripett – it’s a great topper for large breed puppies as it has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but low levels of each and dogs love it! It’s not a complete and balanced food though which is why I’d only recommend it as a topper.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would add Tripett (or just plain meat) to the Orijen or Chicken & Burbank Potato. Both are too high in calcium so if you mix them together it won’t solve anything. You could, however, mix in another brand of a lower calcium food 50:50 with one of those formulas and you’d likely be at (or at least close to) an appropriate level. It would probably be easier to just go with a food that is appropriate though – you’ll have plenty of time to feed Orijen and Acana in the future.

[theBCnut]

None of the Acana formulas are appropriate for LBP. Adding Acana to Orijen would make the calcium even higher.

All Life Stages foods are puppy foods. The AAFCO recognizes 2 nutrient profiles, growth and maintanance. If a food meets the requirements for growth, the manufacturer can choose to have it labeled AllLife Stages.

Meat has phosphorus and not much calcium, so when a kibble has a little too much calcium in it, you can add a little meat without messing up the balance too much.

[alanysrayne]

Feeding a large breed puppy canned food, is there anything that I need to watch out for? I was planning on maybe mixing the wet and dry food together. But I didnt know if there were only certain wet foods that large breeds can have or if its only the dry.

[dogmom]

Hi HDM – do you mean adding the Tripett to the Orijin LBP food? Or would it be better to use half of the Orijin and half of another kibble with less calcium? I was reading the Orijin packaging, and was thinking that while I really like the food for my pup, that I would want to mix it with something….maybe the Acana Chicken & Burbank. I have a friend with GSD pups, and she feeds hers the Acana C&B and thinks it’s great for them. I worry about it because it’s not a puppy food, but it is an all-life-stage food….

Your thoughts on that?

Thanks so much!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Dogmom –

As Patty stated I’m currently in the process of updating the grain-free list and creating a grain-inclusive list. I have already sent inquiries to all companies that have 4 and 5 star puppy foods and am in the process of waiting for the responses to come in. I can tell you, however, none of the Acana formulas are appropriate for large breed puppies. The new Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula is lower in calcium than the previous formula but will not be included on the list – it’s still a tad high. But, to give my honest opinion, if you add 20% or less of an all meat topper or all meat canned food (like Tripett) I think it would be fine.

[EHubbman]

Your best bet would be to read over this thread first and see the suggested Cal/phos levels for large breed pups, then contact the companies to find out the MAX calcium and phosphorus levels and go from there. Like Patty and HDM said, it’s great to find a few foods that work and rotate between them. I personally haven’t seen the numbers for either food, so I’m not much help there. :/

[theBCnut]

Go back to the first page of this thread and read. It explains the REAL issues with feeding large breed puppies. In about the 3rd post, Hound Dog Mom has a google doc that lists good foods that have appropriate calcium levels for LBPs. Pick a few of those foods and rotate between them.

[dogmom]

Am getting a new GSD puppy and trying to decide on food…

Breeder has pup on Iams Large Breed Puppy food, and I was planning on moving to Orijin Large Breed Puppy food, but have been advised to go to Acana Chicken and Burbank instead because lower in protein content and is good for all life stages…..

My adult GDSs are all on Acana Ranchlands, but I don’t think that would work for new pup, so am looking for best alternative.

What is your advice? Should I use the Orijin LBP food, the Acana C&B food, or someone else??

Thanks to all!

[Hershy]

Thank you, HDM!
All was very helpful – I really appreciate your feedback on the dog foods, and also, the calculations for figuring the grams per 1000Kcal. I couldn’t get my head around it, but now I’m back, thanks to your detailed lesson. : ). I’ll keep reading. So many very interesting and helpful posts. I’m sure I’ll be back with other questions, too, particularly regarding the raw food diet. I was feeding my 4 big dogs a raw diet before Charlotte was bred. Also giving them a daily vitamin supplement tablet (which was most likely not the best form of those vitamins and minerals…and maybe I didn’t even need it) I have a lot to learn about it, but I’m thinking that what they were getting was WAY better than the processed foods available. I stopped at the time of pregnancy due to lack of confidence for what gestating pups should get, as well as the lack of time to prepare it. My dogs ate as well as we did at that time. I had fun shopping for bargains – only buying proteins I could find for less than $1/lb. I was surprised at how often those were available so I could stock up : ). But that is another topic and another forum… so finding the best kibble I can is very important to me for my guy and gals.

Thanks, again-

[spaniel39]

Morning
I got the same internal service error but yet got an email from them that it was received.
In any case, I heard from someone this morning via email-dawn
HDM, perhaps you can call her. Here’s the email (and my reply)
Good morning dawn,
I did not receive any email(s) from you and not available today as traveling but
could call tomorrow.
I am also going to relay your number to a member of dogfoodadvisor.com
whom you can speak to
But basically, just want to be sure that the canine caviar large breed lamb puppy dinner is 1.3 calcium/1.0 phosphorous instead of the higher and dangerous levels
of 2.3 and 2.0 written on the bag

Thank you
Michael S Bosse
Chicago

In a message dated 7/10/2013 8:33:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:

Good day Sir,

I have not heard back from you so I wanted to write again in case the email did not go through.
Once again, I have spoke with our support group and read your email.

May we have a conversation as there are several clarifying questions that I have?
I am eager to address your concerns.
Feel free to contact me or provide a number where I can call you.

We do appreciate your suggestion and willingness to help.

Sincerely,

Dawn Barraco
714 223 1800 office
970 576 8775 cell
[email protected]

also, HDM
my email is spaniel39
and I’m on AOL

[alanysrayne]

Oh okay thanks !!!! I am getting a female english mastiff I believe today and they are feeding her science diet puppy for large breeds and I hear that isn’t very good. So I was looking for a better food for her.and I’m limited to the foods they offer at my petco but I know they offer welness core.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Hershy –

Thanks, it was very hard to let him go. 🙁

Royal Canin is not a horrible food, however it’s extremely overpriced for what you get. You could spend the same amount and get a much better food or get a food of equal quality for much less.

Victor looks like a wonderful food, unfortunately, I don’t believe it’s appropriate for large breed puppies (at least their grain-free formulas aren’t – I’ll be looking into the grain-inclusive formulas soon).

You’re correct that most companies only state the minimum – this is why it’s important to call or email the company and ask for the “actual.” In order to calculate the grams per 1,000 kcal. you would multiply 1000 g. (the # of grams in 1 kg.) by the % calcium (as a decimal – i.e. 2% = .02). This will give you the grams of calcium per kg. You then divide this number by the number of kcal. per kg to obtain the grams per kcal. You multiply this by 1,000 to get the grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal. – look for a value of 3.5 or less.

The Kirkland I have listed is their Nature’s Domain – I haven’t looked into the Kirkland Signature formulas. It would be necessary to contact the company to get the actual calcium level of the food. If you can get the Nature’s Domain I believe that’s pretty reasonably priced.

Fromm Gold might also be worth checking out. Their Large Breed Puppy formula is rated 4 stars and at roughly $50 for 33 lbs. is fairly reasonably priced.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Here are some chicken, turkey and grain-free foods appropriate for large breed puppies:

-American Natural Premium Grain-Free Duck Meal and Pork Meal Recipe
-American Natural Premium Grain-Free Ocean Fish Meal and Potato Recipe
-Annamaet Aqualuk
-Avoderm Revolving Menu: Trout and Pea
-Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch
-Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast
-Firstmate Pacific Ocean Fish Puppy Formula
-Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Grain-Free Beef Frittata Veg
-Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Grain-Free Salmon Tunalini
-Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Grain-Free Pork and Peas
-Great Life Grain-Free Buffalo
-Great Life Rx Grain-Free Buffalo
-Grain Life Rx Grain-Free Duck
-Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit Meal Formula
-Wysong Epigen Fish
-Wysong Epigen Venison
-Zignature Trout & Salmon

[Gus]

So to add one more issue to the search I’m looking for grain free, poultry free, large breed puppy food. My pup is 6mo old and has been itchy since day 1. A vet told me puppies don’t typically develop food allergies so young but, flea treatments and oatmeal shampoos haven’t helped at all. He has been on Natural Balance which gave him very runny poo, Innova lg. breed puppy and then it got recalled and we couldn’t get it anymore and now Orijin lg. breed puppy. Chicken and turkey have been ingredients in all of those so I’m looking for a grain and poultry free large breed puppy food but am not having any luck with the large breed puppy aspect. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Hershy]

Hello, Hound Dog Mom and all,

I am new to this site and forum, but have to admit, I have been a “fly on the wall” for a couple weeks or so. I first want to say how sorry I am about the loss of your best friend, HDM. So very tuff! I pray you will find comfort soon.
I raise labrador pups, one litter per year, and am keeping one of the pups from the litter our Charlotte just whelped. The “right” dog food has been an ongoing dilemma for me, always attempting to find the best food for my money. But the quality of the food is #1 for me. We have 4 adult labs, and now one pup. Mom was on Royal Canin Maxi Starter during most of her pregnancy and through weening. Pups were transitioned to RC Labrador Retriever Puppy 33. Then I began to study your website, reading the different reviews. I found the “starter” food to be a 4 star food, but the “33” was only a 3 star food. I don’t want to feed my pup anything less than a 4 star food. But price is definitely something we are forced to consider.
I’m not super clear on how to find the calcium % on the foods. And many say “minimum” so how do I know what it actually is. (I have to say the way you calculate is a little confusing to me, so I need to know just which dog food to use. : )
I have been feeding my big dogs Victor (a 5 star food), but for pup, I would like to find a 5 star food that is affordable for me, but may have to settle for a 4 star, which is still a good food, I’m assuming.
I was recently told about Cosco’s brand Kirkland Signature, which is on you Puppy food list of approved foods. (it is a 4 star food) I am a little confused about which to feed my puppy, since only one puppy food is listed and it has a minimum 1.2 % calcium, so not sure what it REALLY is. The link for the different foods they sell is: http://www.epinions.com/review/Kirkland_Signature_Super_Premium_Puppy_Food_40_lb_bag_epi/content_540777811588?sb=1
If you have time, would you look at the different foods (links toward the bottom of page for other foods) and tell me which would be best to feed my pup. I would appreciate your feedback. This food is very reasonably priced. Thank you

[theBCnut]

I would go with something that is not quite so nutrient dense as Abady until he is using real foods without stool problems of any sort. HDM has a list of foods that are appropriate for large breed puppies. I would caution you to not try to go with the best of the best immediately. His little body probably won’t be able to handle it. A good starting place might be Fromm’s unless HDM can suggest something a little easier to digest. Once he is used to real food again then you can start improving his diet slowly.

[SheSaid]

I guess I was not clear.. puppy has been salvaged..he is eating and drinking and NOT in danger anymore. He was when I got him. He WAS… on deaths door and no way to get him to the vets, but is now within 48 hours up, and in fact just within the last few hours wanting to play. The mention of his bowels was to only let you know that his kidneys are working and his bowels are working, and that I know for certain it is not diarrhea.. it is the adjustment to regular food and hydration. This is not my first time around the park with starving animals, as I have been taking animals in for 15 years or so. This is why this puppy got dropped off at my door. I have to say, I have NEVER lost a dog to death except old age, not once. I needed quick advice on what now.. that he is eating . I needed brands of food for a large breed puppy to give it the nutrition it needs to regain muscle and grow healthy bones… I have had big dogs before, just never one this big. He is the biggest puppy I have ever had in my care. I feed my dogs all home made food. Chicken, rice, veggies.. but I know that the danes grow fast and furious and need the right nutrition and especially this one, having had such a horrible beginning. I know that if he does not get the nutrition he needs he can have problems with his bones and joints, more so than other smaller breed dogs. I needed to know what to feed him, his breed, until I get my research done.. on how to prepare his meals from scratch. I am sorry my first message was not clear. I can see all very well intentioned people here who love animals… but I still need the info I first requested. What brands of food are recommended that are safe and nutritionally sound for his breed..and his age. Thank you all for caring.

[spaniel39]

Thank you and not being paranoid but I’m assuming it’s a mistake on the outside and not the
inside <g>;
that suddenly they somehow made a huge batch of 2.3 calcium/2.0 phosphorus dog
food by mistake. That would be disastrous

ALSO, I found another food I might try for variation that wasn’t on your list
◾Now Fresh Large Breed Puppy (5 stars)

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi spaniel39 –

Thanks for the heads up. I’m currently updating my list of recommended GF foods and compiling a list of recommended grain-inclusive foods. I will email CC and ask them to verify the calcium levels in their puppy food. If they don’t respond the food will be removed from the list. I’ve tried to email them in the past and found them to have horrible customer service so I’m not expecting much.

[spaniel39]

Hi, HDM et all!
So, Based upon the excellent reviews (DFA 5 stars)
for Canine Caviar’s Large Breed Lamb Puppy Dinner
and of course the lower calcium/phosphorous levels required 1.3/1.00 approximately,
I just ordered and received a few bags. HDM put together a great list on those levels
under https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit?pli=1
Imagine my suprise and shock after I fed her, casually looking at the nutritional label on the back
and OMG!!!!! &*&@^&@!!!
Calcium 2.3 and phosphorous 2.0
So I just called the company and (according to them), those bags are misprinted and new bags
are coming out. HUH??? Isn’t there some law regarding mislabeling or maye just for “human” food
The customer service agent was nice but not exactly apologetic. She assured me that the product
in the bag was correct/again, just the labeling was wrong and “they’re using up all the old misprinted
bags” Ummm, ok? HUH?
A holistic quality company not recalling the product.
I don’t think any of this is right. On my end, pending their replay, will send an email,
will write the Sun times and Tribune in Chicago
If anyone else is perplexed and/or upset as I am, feel free to contact/use your sources , as well
I’m NOT telling Sophie!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Just want to let everyone know the list of grain-inclusive large breed puppy foods and a revised version of the grain-free foods are currently underway.

[EHubbman]

Wow! Thank you! I had always grown up hearing that the large breed pups shouldn’t get it supplemented by food till they were well and grown. I really appreciate the information. In that same vein, do you think dried trachea is a good treat for my little guy? I was holding off on it because I didn’t want to get him too much glucosamine.

[Newfs]

thank you very much HDM
What do you think about diets Husse and Enova for large breed puppies?
http://www.husse.co.uk/dog-food-products/dry-food-for-dogs/?product=110
Composition:
Chicken, rice, animal fat, wheat meal, wheat, beet pulp, hydrolyzed chicken protein, linseed, dried fish meal, salmon oil, yeast, salt, dried whole eggs, fructo- oligosaccharides, lecithin, tagetes extract, sea algae, grape seed extract.
Analytical Constituents:
Protein 29.0%, fat content 18.0%, crude ash 7.5%, crude fibre 2.5%, calcium 1.2%, phosphorus 0.8%, chondroitine-glucosamine 1000 mg/kg, taurine 1000 mg/kg.

Additives: Nutritional additives:
Vitamin A 17500 IU/kg, vitamin D3 1600 IU/kg, vitamin E 500 mg/kg, E1 (Iron) 200 mg/kg, E2 (Iodine) 3 mg/kg, E4 (copper) 8mg/kg, E5 (Manganese) 60 mg/kg, E6 (Zinc) 100 mg/kg, E8 (Selenium) 0.2 mg/kg; Antioxidants: tocopherols.

http://www.enovapetfood.com/photoVideoGallery.aspx?cid=4680&mid=18452
INGREDIENTS
Dried chicken meat, rice, brown rice, poultry fat, egg powder, rice gluten, flaxseed, dried beet pulp, rice bran, protein hydrolysate, dicalciumphosphate, dried yeast, cellulose, fish oil, dried carrots, dried tomato pomace, dried seaweed, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, glucosamine, chondroitine sulfate, rosemary. Antioxidants: tocopherols, propyl gallate.

ANALYSIS
Crude protein: 27,0% – Crude fat: 16,0% – Crude fiber: 3,5% – Crude ash: 7,5% – Calcium: 1,0% – Phosphorus: 0,9% – Moisture: 10,0% – Omega 6: 2,5% – Omega 3: 0,9% – Metabolizable Energy: 16,1 MJ/kg – Glucosamine: 1.000 mg/kg – Chondroitine: 1.000 mg/kg.

ADDITIVES PER KG
Vitamin A: 15.000 IU – Vitamin D3: 1.200 IU – Vitamin E: 150 mg – Copper (as copper sulphate): 10 mg.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you go to the “Diet and Health Issues Forum” the Large Breed Puppy Nutrition thread is the second thread listed (it’s highlighted in yellow).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey EHubbman –

Glucosamine and chondroitin are fine for puppies. A dog’s natural diet (raw) would be very rich in glucosamine and chondroitin as cartilage and bones contain high levels. Dogs foods, even those with added glucosamine and chondroitin, don’t contain enough to say so – so I wouldn’t worry about it’s presence in a kibbled dog food.

I have not been able to find any evidence suggesting that supplementing a large breed puppy’s diet with glucosamine can be harmful, however I don’t believe it to be necessary either. My two get lots of RMB’s so I know their diet is rich in glucosamine and chondroitin – I probably won’t add any supplements until they’re seniors. I do, however, typically recommend that large and giant breed dogs eating processed foods receive supplemental glucosamine and chondroitin (or whole foods providing these nutrients) starting between 1 and 2 years of age (when they’re young it can be a low dose, just for maintenance).

This is an excerpt from an article about large and giant breed puppy nutrition written by integrative veterinarian Dr. Susan Wynn:

“There are no studies so far that indicate whether it is effective or harmful to supplement with glucosamine to large breed puppies because of their risk of DOD. In general, I wait until I recognize a risk factor in a dog.”

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi newfs –

The food you posted looks okay for a large breed puppy. The protein level is good and, while I don’t know the kcal. per kg., 1.25% calcium should be safe or at least close to safe. I don’t see corn in the ingredients list? Fromm Gold large breed puppy would be a good choice too. Why not rotate between the two?

[spaniel39]

Thank you HDM
I can’t seem to find the large breed puppy thread but definitely want to go grain free for Baby
Sophie. Her poop is now perfect as temporarily I decided to put her on the Spaniels’ diet;
mxiture of wellness ocean core and Nature’s Variety Beef. Also (for the spaniels) use
Acana Ranchlands and Grasslands.
I say temporarily, as the calcium and phosphorous levels are much too high but sure just a few
days won’t hurt
I ordered Canine Caviar Lamb Dinner with Venison (almost grain free) as it came highly recommended
we will see

[EHubbman]

Newfs – I’m not so good with picking foods, I know my guy is on Nature’s Variety Instinct rabbit/LID Turkey and is doing great. I’ve heard good things about the Fromm Gold.

I do know, though, that you need to avoid puppy foods that have glucosamine in them. You don’t want to supplement puppies with glucosamine, as it can hinder natural joint growth.

[Newfs]

Thank You for your answer, but unfortunately, the above-mentioned food are not available in Poland :/ Fromm Gold is available for large breed puppies.