[Anonymous]

Thanks James and HDM for your input also! Honestly, I’m feeling a little overwhelmed by all this information. I have started to research about Epigen and reading up on others experience on it. There was one review on the Epigen website where the dog did really well having on Epigen having both cushings and diabetes, which is what my dog has, so that is really promising. Today he measured at 407 for his glucose so it’s a stepback. I’m not sure what it is and it’s extremely frustrating. I make sure he gets nothing outside of his normal feeding time and make sure he’s well away from everyone during dinner time so no one feeds him anything at all yet the numbers are still very high. I will definitely look into your suggestions also and will be keeping my fingers crossed. Thank you everyone!

[amydunn19]

James- Although I respect that you are successfully managing your diabetes, dogs are different than humans and I think your suggestions are questionable for someone who doesn’t have a vet well-versed in diabetes. First of all, nph insulin most closely resembles the insulin dogs naturally produce which is different from humans. Most dogs are well maintained on this type of insulin and are not”impossible” to control at all. The short acting insulin(R) is sometimes needed for dogs that have insulin resistance but this dog has not had enough time to be regulated and to determine if resistance is the issue. Regardless of the insulin, diabetic dogs should be fed the same amount at the same time every day. To imply anything else is ridiculous. People who have had long term success managing their dog’s disease live by this principle. As far as food goes, a variety of different diets have been proven to work well for a diabetic dog but with Cushings (or pancreatitis like my dog) , a high fat diet is not recommended. A diet with “cheap” carbs is, of course, not good either. I prefer a food like Nutrisca because there is no potato or tapioca or rice or grain and my dog (dx five years now) thrives on it like no other food. Complex carbs work well with the nph insulin and they are necessary to have stable glucose levels throughout the day. There is an excellent article in the Whole Dog Journal which addresses diabetic diets and includes case studies of many dogs on a wide range of diets- raw, commercial, prescription, home-cooked and the success stories of those dogs. Diabetes is not a one size fits all with dogs and many times, you can analyze foods and labels and ingredients until you are blue in the face but you don’t get the results that you should. Personally, I think there are so many factors – metabolism, age, stress, infection or disease, etc that factor in.

[soho]

Thank you HDM

Artemis maximal has lab values for the food and the carbs are 17.8% on a DMB. Here’s the link for the Artemis maximal:

http://www.artemiscompany.com/analysis_maximal_dog.html

NV Instinct chicken has the same numbers for protein, fat and moisture on the GA as Artemis Maximal so unless I can get the actual carb content or the actual Protein, fat, ash and moisture content your 18% carb estimate is probably correct. I mean you were only 2 tenths of a percent off on your Artemis maximal estimate!

When I do the math for the two epigens the carb content is 5.5% estimated. I will email Wysong and see if I can get some actual numbers.

Protein 60% (min)
Fat 11% (min)
Fiber 3.5% (max)
Moisture 12% (max)
Ash 8% (estimate)

This list will be constantly updated but for right now it looks like the kibbles with the lowest carb content are in order from low to high:

Wysong Epigen 60 and 90, 11% carbs (DFA estimate)
Natura Evo Turkey & chicken 12%, red meat 15% and herring 18% carbs (NFE)
Artemis Maximal 17.8% carbs (actual)
Natures Variety Instinct Chicken 18% (HDM & my estimate)

Thanks again HDM!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey James –

Two other kibbles that just came to mind that I thought you might want to look into – Nature’s Variety Instinct Chicken and Artemis Maximal. Both have 42% protein and 22% fat – so should equate to about 18% carbohydrates.

[joanellenapril]

My dog was eating Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. (He is allergic to grains.) Costco came out with a version of the same food called Nature’s Domain Smoked Salmon (or something similiar). They are both manufactured by Diamond Pet Food. I switched him over slowly and everything was fine. When I completed the transfer and he started eating only Costco’s version, I almost immediately noticed that he started drinking a lot more water. (I’ve since been to the vet and he ruled out diabetes.) Any comments or similar experiences with different levels of sodium in dog foods. I am about to try a test having bought another bag of TOTW and will mix them half and half again, Thanks in advance.

[amydunn19]

James – While I agree with some of what you say in theory, it doesn’t always hold true in reality. I think Kristi probably would get better results with a long-acting insulin such as R, but without a vet who is well versed in diabetes, it is a dangerous proposition. Comparing diabetes in humans to diabetes in dogs is helpful in many respects as there are similarities, the flaw with that is dogs can’t communicate in terms we can understand until trouble is there. They can’t say they are feeling bad or shaky and short of checking their sugar many times a day, there is no way to know. If you can stay home non-stop with your dog, then great but most people don’t have that luxury. Also, to say diabetes is impossible to control with nph insulin is just wrong. I have done it for five years now and there are many others out there who have – in fact most dogs are maintained on nph. And just because someone uses a long acting insulin doesn’t mean you throw routine out the window. These dogs are best maintained on the same amount of food at the same time every day. As far as low glycemic foods are concerned, I have found just through my personal experience, that my dog’s blood sugar is just consistently lower and better since she is on Nutrisca. She feels better, looks better and it helps with her allergies. I actually tried Evo when she was first diagnosed and her bg was sky-high on it. The one thing I have found is that diabetic dogs react differently to different food. There was a series in the Whole Dog Journal last year about diabetic diets and the interesting part was there were many different case studies of diabetic dogs and almost all of them were on completely different foods. Some were on commercial diets, home cooked, raw, and even prescription diets but the owners all had great success by finding the food that worked for their dog. You can analyze the numbers and ingredients until your face is blue but if the theoretical “best” food doesn’t give you results, then you have to consider how your dog processes insulin and food.
Kristi, I would find an online forum for dogs with Cushings and/or diabetes so you can talk to people who are going through what you are with their dogs. There are tons of knowledgeable people out there who can really tell you about Cushings and diabetes who live it everyday.

[soho]

Hi Krist

A lot of dogs seem to be on only one type of insulin and it is usually a medium acting insulin which has a slope like a long in distance, short in height hill. This type of insulin makes it pretty impossible to control diabetes well. A dog must eat at the same times each day and the same amount of food at each meal.

In humans the best control of blood sugars is achieved using a very long acting insulin like lantus combined with a short acting insulin like humulin R. The short acting insulin is taken about 30 to 45 minutes before meals and the long acting insulin is taken once or twice daily to cover the glucose that is constantly being produced by the liver.

This type of insulin regimen requires more daily injections but it allows for several things that are not possible with a more simple insulin regimen:

1)Meals can be eaten at any time of day or night.
2)Meals don’t always have to be the same size and contain the exact same amount of carbs.
3)If your dog is sick or not eating you don’t have to freak out because you are worried that your dog will have low blood sugar because they didn’t eat.
4) You can adjust one of the insulins without also increasing or decreasing the size and content of meals.
5) Your dog will have much better control of his/her diabetes.

With the more intense insulin regimen meals and liver metabolism are handled separately allowing for a more effective control of blood glucose.

FOODS

I believe that carbs are the enemy of anything (human, dog or otherwise) that has diabetes. I don’t agree with the Glycemic Research Institute that dry foods such as Nutrisca and Orijen are optimal for a dog with diabetes. Nutrisca has an estimated 36% carbs on a dry matter basis. Orijen has 25% carbs as estimated using the NFE (nitrogen free extract) method (this is extremely reliable). I think either % of carbs is waaay too much for a diabetic dog. If there were several foods with let’s say a carb content below 15% then I would look for the one with the lowest glycemic load. But if one food has 35% carbs and another food has 15% carbs it wouldn’t matter to me what the glycemic load of the first food was, I would choose the food with only 15% carbs!!!!

In dry foods (kibbles) the lowest carb content I have found is EVO which ranges from 12 to 18% carbs depending on the variety and Epigen (Thank you Hound Dog Mom) which has only 11% carbs in either of the 2 formulas.

In wet foods maybe you could just add some fresh meat which is in the same family (red, poultry or fish) that you are feeding at any particular meal. You are guaranteed a much higher quality topper if you add your own rather than a canned food.

Good Luck!!!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your input Amy. I have ordered the Nutrisca and it should be here in the following day or so and I can see how he will like it then. I have actually increased his dosage of insulin now and he’s currently at 7 units and he was okay with it… I test him at 3pm daily which is his worst time and he’ll be around 330 so it has gotten a lot better..it’s just frustrating that it’s still so high. I am glad that he’s doing better but still frustrated that he’s not fully regulated after all this time yet :T… I will definitely try the Nutrisca and see how that is for him and see if it helps control his diabetes better.

[amydunn19]

I would avoid g/d – the ingredients are terrible. I would start looking beyond the vet for food. Has your vet mentioned increasing the insulin dose? Those numbers need to come down before too much damage is done. I wouldn’t increase the insulin dose and food at the same time though. You won’t know which change worked. Most vets in the early stages gradually increase the insulin dosages until the bg comes down to a better level. 550 is a risk of ketoacidosis and organ damage. My 14 lb dog was started at 5 units, increased gradually to 7 units where she stayed for some time. Once I got her settled on a good food that she likes , she is now at 4 units. You will see that as time goes on, their insulin needs change and so regulation is not permanent. I would make the food change first and after 5 – 7 days, explore an insulin change.

[Anonymous]

Hi Amy,
Thank you so much for your input! I will look around more and see if I can find a more experience vet that has treated dogs similar to my dog’s condition. His cushings is now under better control. We did testing a few weeks ago and confirmed that he is on the correct dosage now for his cushings. I actually purchased a IPET monitor from his vet and it seems to be reliable as the numbers are pretty similar to what his vet was also getting. He will be doing a blood glucose curve test soon so I will verify if there are any differences. I will also look into Nutrisca and see if that is something that he is willing to eat and if that is something that will work for him. I talked to his vet about his unwillingness to eat the W/D and his vet advised me they will do further research to see if G/D or Purina Pro is something he could be on and I will also continue my own research. Thank you once again for your help. This has given me a better idea on what to do!

[amydunn19]

krist117 – I don’t have experience with Cushings but I have a diabetic JRT who was diagnosed five years ago. I have friends who have dogs with both conditions and I know once you get the Cushings under control, the diabetes will be easier to get regulated. I am worried that your vet admits his lack of experience with dogs – if it is possible, I would find a vet with dog and diabetes experience. If it is not possible, you will have to do the best you can. IMO you need to test your dog’s blood sugar at home. This dog needs to be monitored to determine how his body uses insulin. Buy a human meter(I use the One Touch Ultra) and buy your strips on Amazon or eBay. I test at fasting(before eating), six hours after that and then 6 hours after that at the evening meal. Take your meter with you to your vet and check against his lab. Human blood and canine blood are different but you will get an idea of how to adjust your number based on the difference between your reading and his reading. Testing is vital and don’t waste your time with urine strips – they are not reliable. As for food, I prefer Nutrisca which is low glycemic and my dogs love it. I top it with Nutrisca wet food or Merrrick wet food. I also use Grandma Lucy’s Pure Performance, another low glycemic option to change it up but worry about variety until you have him regulated. I stay away from potatoes and tapioca. Also, remember the most important thing is to find a food your dog will eat willingly. This is not a battle you want to fight – your dog must eat. You can also top the food with boiled chicken or homemade broth(not canned ) to make any dry more appealing.

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,
I am new here and have a 12 year old Maltese that has Cushings and was recently diagnosed with diabetes a month and a half ago. He registered at about 550+ (off scale) and I’ve been really struggling to get it down. By his vet’s recommendation he is currently eating Science Diet (mature adult) small bites and Hill’s W/D Diabetic (approx 2 table spoons) but I really have to force him to eat that. He takes 4 units of Humulin ml/cc twice a day and veteroyl 10 mg twice a day but I still have not been able to get him regulated. His vet that he is currently seeing is about an hour away from home and I live in a really small town so our vets here do not have the equipment necessary to monitor all of his conditions and his current vet (who has been wonderful and discovered the diabetes stated he tends to work on horses more so he is not as familiar with dogs). I do travel a lot so will not be able to make homemade meals but am looking to switch his dog food. I have researched quite a bit online and now believe that the science diet is not a good food for him and need to switch but I’m not sure what to. Any information will be helpful..thank you so much in advance!

[InkedMarie]

I believe he did not like that on another thread, I asked Dr. Mike if it is ok that he advertise the jerky he makes. I believe it is against the rules of both DFA and the forum.

[Anonymous]

James, what happened? I quite liked your post.

[soho]

Hi Guys and Gals

Regretfully not everyone appreciates my posts. This will be my last post on DFA. If anyone has any more questions about diet and diabetes please contact me at [email address removed by the moderator at users request]

Thank you everyone,
James

• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Mike Sagman.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 7 months ago by Mike Sagman.

[amydunn19]

Hi, Safarisam.
I have a diabetic JRT who was diagnosed almost 5 years ago. Search Canine Support Group – it is a forum of very knowledgeable people who have experience with the disease. They helped me so much. One of the biggest challenges is to find a suitable food your dog will willingly eat and follow the same schedule without fail every day. Do you live in the U.S? Canisulin is not an insulin many U.S. vets use anymore because dogs using it are very hard to regulate. It would be great if you could get Novolin NPH or Humulin. You might want to check out a back issue of Whole Dog Journal which had an article about diets for diabetic dogs and all the options.

[soho]

Hi Safarisam

These recommendations are just my opinion and I am NOT a vet. This is just what I would do if I were in your situation. I would try to find a holistic or integrative vet to be part of your healthcare team in dealing with your dogs diet and his diabetes!

There are many many options for your pom. Since you mentioned you would love to make his food here is one option. Buy ground turkey, ground beef and chicken breasts from your local supermarkets. Buy some frozen vegetables, no onions or starchy veggies like potatoes and no grains. His diet should be at least 80% meat and no more then 20% vegetables.

You can steam the veggies and then mash them up or you can puree them in a blender or food processor without cooking them. The idea is to make the veggies easier to digest since dogs don’t process veggies that well. The meats can be lightly cooked using low heat. I would be cautious about giving raw food to your dog at this point because it is hard for anyone to judge the condition of his immune system and the damage that has been done from the diabetes. A good immune system is necessary to handle the bacteria from raw food.

Since there are no bones in this diet a calcium supplement is necessary. If it is made for dogs it will have the dosages on the label. A multivitamin is also necessary because it is difficult for the home prepared diet to be complete and balanced without adding vitamins and minerals. Again if it is made for dogs the dosage will be on the label. I would also add some digestive enzymes and some sardines for their omega 3 content. The sardines would be part of the 80% meat portion of the diet. additional toppers like green tripe and organ meats can be rotated in the 80% part of the diet. Toppers should be no more then 20% of the total diet.

This is a start and there are many more options than the one I have given. A good book for you to help with your dogs diet would be see spot live longer by Steve Brown.

I wish you and your pomeranian the very best!

[Safarisam]

I am new here and I have a 11 year old Pomeranian who was diagnosed with diabetes in August/September. He was emergency vet for about a week and is now on insulin (canineinsulin (3) 2 times a day) I am having a really difficult time trying to stabilize him. I would love to make his food but dont know where to even start and what ingredients are best for him and what vitamins and how much to add etc.
I also feed him canned food (lil caesars & Mighty dog) however see it is high in fat

I am a single woman on disability and just want to do everything I can to make sure he is getting the best diet and on the best schedule…can someone please help me with resources and links and advice on what to do.

Thank you so much

[soho]

To everyone reading these posts on diet and diabetes.

I think if people looked at diabetes a little differently then everyone would understand what I am trying to say. Having diabetes is like having a severe allergy to carbohydrates. This allergy is so severe that anything but the tiniest exposure will cause central nervous system damage, blindness, loss of limbs and death.

I hope that helps!

[Shawna]

I’m not understanding your post? They know lectins cause disease (including diabetes). What they don’t know is to what extent and why one has this issue and one has that. I have a friend whose dog is intolerant of green beans. I know others that have issues with strawberries and cucumbers. I am intolerant of dairy lectins and my husband reacts to pinto bean lectins.

The difference between us and our dogs —- we eat a varied diet while we (many of us) force our dogs to dine on the same cuisine day in and day out. Our dogs are more suseptible to the damages of lectins—if in the diet they are eating day after day..

I’m ALL FOR species appropriate diets by the way.. BEFORE illness sets in especially 🙂 Five of my dogs get raw including my dog born with kidney disease. The foster dogs (which will likely be with us for life) get 5 star kibbles with raw and high protein canned toppers.

[soho]

Hi Shawna

Here are two segments I found from a paper entitled “Do dietary lectins cause disease?”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/

The first segment talks about the mechanisms by which lectins cause diabetes.

The second segment explains why everyone who eats lectins does not develop diabetes.

I also found some papers that postulate that lectins may cause insulin resistance.

My point is that I agree that lectins may be an evil force to be reckoned with. It is just that there are many many arguments supporting both sides of the do lectins cause this or that and in who or how many debate and there is know way we can bring this to closure in this forum.

What I do know through my experience with about 50 dogs who had diabetes is that once a dog has diabetes the clock starts ticking and unless the guardian of that dog makes a heroic effort to control that dogs blood sugar the devastation begins! I also know that the amount of carbohydrates that a dog consumes is directly related to rate of devastation.

Injected insulins are most effective at matching the curve of glucose metabolism when used in small amounts. Injected insulins can be plotted along a graph where one axis is time and the other axis is amount of insulin. In order to closely mimic the graph of carbohydrate absorption with the graph of insulin absorption small amounts of each must be used. As you increase the amount of carbs consumed it becomes more and more impossible to match with the use of injected insulin. Therefore the total amount of carbohydrate consumed is the most important factor in controlling diabetes and avoiding the devastation that this disease usually causes

First segment of paper:
Of particular interest is the implication for autoimmune diseases. Lectins stimulate class II HLA antigens on cells that do not normally display them, such as pancreatic islet and thyroid cells.9 The islet cell determinant to which cytotoxic autoantibodies bind in insulin dependent diabetes mellitus is the disaccharide N-acetyl lactosamine,10 which must bind tomato lectin if present and probably also the lectins of wheat, potato, and peanuts. This would result in islet cells expressing both class II HLA antigens and foreign antigen together—a sitting duck for autoimmune attack. Certain foods (wheat, soya) are indeed diabetogenic in genetically susceptible mice.11 Insulin dependent diabetes therefore is another potential lectin disease and could possibly be prevented by prophylactic oligosaccharides.

Second segment of paper:
But if we all eat lectins, why don’t we all get insulin dependent diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, IgA nephropathy, and peptic ulcers? Partly because of biological variation in the glycoconjugates that coat our cells and partly because these are protected behind a fine screen of sialic acid molecules, attached to the glycoprotein tips.10 We should be safe. But the sialic acid molecules can be stripped off by the enzyme neuraminidase, present in several micro-organisms such as influenzaviruses and streptococci. This may explain why diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis tend to occur as sequelae of infections. This facilitation of lectins by micro-organisms throws a new light on postinfectious diseases and makes the folklore cure of fasting during a fever seem sensible.

[Shawna]

Quality fat has not been linked to the development of pancreatitis… Rancid fats for sure. I would assume that inappropriate types like hydrogenated sunflower oil are problematic too. But, fat doesn’t cause pancreatitis. It simply needs to be reduced when the pancreas is already inflammed. Just like protein doesn’t cause kidney disease but at some point it has to be lowered to help alleviate symptoms. NOT because it is causing the problem. Same with quality fat in pancreatitis.

[Shawna]

Not all carbs are created equal.

For some dogs I think the type of starch used could make a huge difference in diabetes irregardless of the overall quantity (although I definitely do agree that carbs need to be at a minimum). Lectins are known to cause type 1 diabetes (the kind most often seen in dogs). They also have research showing lectins can cause lesions on the pancreas. I would assume those lesions could eventually cause diabetes due to the inflammation and necrosis. It is also well established that lectins can cause insulin resistance..

[pugmomsandy]

Not saying what you said is misleading, but in general if I were on the review pages, and asked what food should I give my diabetic dog, and I got a reply of find the lowest carb food without being informed what an ideal low carb food is, how protein and fat are distributed in the ancestral diet and so on, then I only have part of the info I need since diabetes and caring for a dog with diabetes is not simple and then having to look up all different foods because they all have different pro/fat/carbs within each line of dog food can be really daunting for someone. And then learning that the fat listed on most foods is just a minimum can be worrisome. Can really get confusing! That’s why the opening of the forum has been great! Can go in depth about matters and not clog up the reviews.

[soho]

Hi HDM and Patty

On the EVO website the carbohydrate percentages are listed like this: Carbohydrates NFE (Max) 12.0 %. NFE stands for nitrogen free extract. Nitrogen free extract is what is left after the moisture, protein, fat, fiber, and minerals have been removed from the food.
So it looks like the carbohydrates listed on EVO”s website are based on a dry matter calculation.

Hi pugmomsandy

Pancreatitis is inflammation and swelling of the pancreas. The causes of pancreatitis in dogs are still not that clear. Certain drugs like corticosteroids increase a dogs chance of getting pancreatitis.. Dogs with Cushing’s disease, diabetes, hypothyroidism, and some forms of hyperlipemia are also at increased risk to develop Pancreatitis. I am by no means an expert on pancreatitis.

So although one of the causes of Pancreatitis may be a diet that is high in fat, the devastation that diabetes can cause to a dog has to be considered very carefully when choosing a diet for the diabetic dog. Choosing a diet based on carbohydrate content as long as the protein levels are adequate is NEVER “misleading” as you stated in your reply. Each dog is different and everything about the dog must be considered whether or not the dog has diabetes. That being said carbohydrates are the single most problematic ingredient for any dog with diabetes.

[Hound Dog Mom]

The carbohydrate content listed on EVO’s website isn’t on a dry matter basis, however the carbohydrate content Dr. Mike has listed is still way off the mark. EVO lists the carbohydrate content as 12% – converting percents to a dry matter basis for kibble doesn’t alter anything significantly as the moisture content of kibble is so low -and converting to dry matter basis only changes it by 1%, it’s 13% carbohydrates (max) on a dry matter basis. 13% is a big difference from the 21% carbohydrates stated on the EVO review. Like Sandy said, Dr. Mike estimates the ash content, so the carbohydrate contents listed on his reviews are most generally not going to be accurate, they give a good idea but without the actual ash content there’s no way of knowing the actual carbohydrate content. If someone really wanted the actual carbohydrate content of a food they’re better off contacting the company directly.

[pugmomsandy]

Dr Mike also uses 8% as ash although some are higher or lower. That still can’t account for the real fat content or protein content in a food as they are minumums.

And looking for a food solely based on carb content for diabetes can be misleading or detrimental for some. There are some situations where just the lowest carbs are just not healthy for a dog such as a high fat diet or one with a fat-to-protein ratio above 100%. An active/working dog can handle that much better than a sedentary dog. So feeding a high fat but “low carb” food to the sedentary house dog with diabetes can end up with a dog that has both diabetes and pancreatitis.

There’s never a one food fits all or look for one characteristic of a food that will work for all dogs with diabetes. And unfortunately if you don’t make your own food, you will never know the amount your feeding of fat from a commercial food.

[theBCnut]

My understanding of how Dr. Mike gets his carb figure is this:

Convert the GA to dry matter basis i.e. mathematically remove the moisture content.

Dry matter carbs%= 100%-dry matter protein%-dry matter fat%-dry matter ash%

Evo’s carb figures probably aren’t dry matter and that is why Dr Mike’s numbers are higher.

[soho]

Hi HDM

Thank you again. I just quickly looked at the formulas for epigen and epigen 90. Although they both contain 60% protein the regular epigen contains an undetermined amount of vegetable proteins. The epigen 90 is 90% meat and organs with no apparent vegetable proteins.

They both must have a carbohydrate content lower then even EVO! I will look into them more thoroughly and post what I find.

Thanks again HDM

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hey James –

Have you checked out Wysong Epigen? 60% protein/12% fat.

[soho]

Hi HDM

Thank you for the explanations of glycemic load and glycemic index.

As for the effect of different binders on blood sugar I think that the amount of carbs regardless of the glycemic load of those carbs is a very important factor. Whatever the glycemic load of a food is the carbs in that food still must be metabolized by the body. The lower the overall carb content of a food the easier it’s going to be to control those carbs with insulin.

[soho]

Hi Mike,

From my understanding Mike S uses a formula to estimate the carbohydrate content of foods. If he had access to the exact percentages of every ingredient in the food he could calculate the carb content more accurately.

On the EVO website they list the carbs in the Guaranteed analysis tab and the foods are as follows:
Turkey and Chicken, Carbohydrates 12% Max
Herring and Salmon, Carbohydrates 18% Max
Red Meat, Carbohydrates 15% Max

So the actual carb content of EVO’s dog foods is between 12% and 18%. At that low level the binder (potatoes) would not affect the blood sugar as much as let’s say a food that was 30% carbs and used lentils as a binder. Let’s not forget that the overall carbohydrate content of a food is very important and that the lower the carbs the better the food is going to be for a diabetic dog.

As far as kibbles go these foods are the lowest in carbs that I know of. If anyone knows of other kibbles this low in Carbohydrates please let me know!

Adding fresh foods like meats or fish to any kibble is going to lower the overall carb content and improve the overall quality of the kibble. As for Brother’s kibbles I don’t think I would classify the 35% dry matter basis carbohydrate content as a minimal binder or a low carbohydrate food. Again the carb content of Brother’s kibbles on DFA is just an estimate and anyone who knows the actual carb content please let me know!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Well I’m sure Brother’s doesn’t have a high glycemic index, looking at the protein levels I’d assume there’s a lot of meat and a relatively small amount of tapioca. But definitely, adding fresh meat and eggs would lower the “glycemic” load even more. Starches are a necessary evil in kibble, but by choosing a quality food with minimal starch levels (like in Brother’s) and adding even more fresh meat (high protein, low glycemic) you’re getting the percentages even closer to those in the ancestral diet – what everyone should be aiming for. 🙂

[Mike P]

Hi HDM
So if you “boost” a high quality kibble such as Brothers Complete with maybe fresh meat and eggs,sardines and what not,would that change the playing field?If I kinda try to understand this awful disease more animal protein is a good thing??

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Mike P –

You’re right – potato has a high glycemic index. However what you want to look at is glycemic load – glycemic load measures how the food will impact blood sugar based on the amount of the food eaten. Meaning, just because a food contains an ingredient that is high glycemic doesn’t necessarily mean the food as a whole is high glycemic. For example, Orijen contains white potato (a high glycemic ingredient) however, because they use such a small amount of white potato and such a large volume of meat, the food as a whole is low glycemic (certified low glycemic by the glycemic research institute). Looking at EVO’s protein content (without calling the company) I would assume the food is likely low glycemic. Also, not all of EVO’s formulas contain white potato – the weight management formula (which looks like a wonderful option for dogs with diabetes) is white potato free and has 52% protein and 15% fat, the fish formula is white potato free as well. Now on the flip side, you could use a binder with a lower glycemic index than white potato but if the food is a lot lower in protein/contains much less meat and higher in carbs/contains more binder – that food could actually have a greater impact on blood sugar then a food that contains a large volume of meat and a small amount of a high glycemic binder. White potato and tapioca are both high glycemic but if used in a high quality food with a large volume of meat and only minimum amounts of binders, they shouldn’t affect blood sugar significantly. That’s my understanding (James feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).

[Mike P]

Hi James,
I was reading the EVO review and the DMB has the carbs listed at 21% and fat at 24% with potato being the 5th ingredient.Potato offers very little nutritional value according to the review.I thought you made a post that you were very interested in purchasing Brothers Complete that is potato free.I don’t know if potato is all that great for feeding a dog with diabetes, but as a person with limited knowledge about the disease I will defer to one of the DFA experts to comment further.My question is what role do potato’s play in a diabetic dogs diet?I agree that fresh non processed food is a clear cut better choice for any dog .

[soho]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to discuss diet and diabetes. Diabetes is a huge subject to tackle whether it is in regard to people or to pets. I wanted to start the conversation with the question;

“What should I feed my Diabetic dog?”

Without going into the science of Diabetes which would be a very long and complex conversation let’s just discuss what you can do in regards to your dog’s diet to help them live a longer and healthier life.

I have been dealing with my own diabetes for 28 years now and I worked for a Doctor of Osteopathy as a diabetes educator in her Manhattan, NY office. For the last eight years I have counseled many dog guardians on the subject of canine diabetes. I have seen literally thousands of dogs with every kind of health issue through my work with the non profit FreePlay which educates the public on the benefits of off leash recreation areas and with The Pet Wash a local grooming and retail establishment.

The good news is you can really make a difference in your diabetic dog’s well being through their diet. The bad news is diabetes is an insidious disease that can rob your dog of their sight and their life if left unmanaged.

The Canine Ancestral diet which is approximately 55% protein 25 to 30% fat and 15% carbohydrate or on a calorie weighted basis 50% of calories are from protein, 44% from fat, and only 6% from carbohydrate is a good starting point to consider in trying to help the diabetic dog through diet.

The ancestral diet is so low in carbohydrates that it is tailor made for a diabetic dog. You can prepare this type of diet at home using human grade meats and vegetables which we will discuss in another post or you can try to feed your dog a similar diet using commercial foods. I would recommend starting with a balanced raw diet that does not contain bones and lightly cooking it. I would cook it lightly because a lot of diabetic dogs are not in the best health and their ability to deal with the bacteria and microbes that are in the raw food is probably compromised.

Second choice would be a dehydrated food such as The Honest Kitchen. THK is a quality food that uses only human grade ingredients in all of their formulas. The problem with THK is it is lower in protein that what I would suggest. This can be remedied by adding about 20% lightly cooked meat to each of the recipes. I would stick with similar proteins like fowl for the turkey or chicken formulas, fish for the fish formulas and red meat for the beef formulas.

Next would be a canned food that has no grains or other starches like potatoes. I would look for a canned food that was mostly meats with a little vegetables.

Lastly would be kibble. Kibbles require starch to bind the ingredients. They also are the most processed of all the commercial diets available for dogs. They also are dry and nutrient dense. I would suggest that a diabetic dog be fed a high moisture diet like a fresh food or a dehydrated after it is rehydrated or a canned food. Moisture helps ease the burden of the kidneys which are one of the organs that are affected by diabetes.

If you must feed a kibble for whatever reason then I would look to a kibble like EVO which is only 12 percent carbohydrates. The lowest carb highest protein kibble would be the only kibble I would consider feeding a dog with diabetes. Unfortunately once a dog has diabetes the controlling of this disease would be of paramount importance to me and I would no longer be as concerned with considering all of the qualities of an individual dog food and I would mostly focus on feeding a high protein, low carbohydrate and high moisture diet

Questions anyone?

• This topic was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by soho.

[pugmomsandy]

Unfortunately, some dog food manufacturers are adding lentils and other legumes to their dog foods! It’s like the new “thing” to do and lots of dog food companies are jumping on the legume bandwagon. Whether it’s due to $$$ or whether their looking to make a lower glycemic food or other reason. I still will not buy it. If my dog had diabetes, I would feed something else.

[Toxed2loss]

I’m sorry James. Just a typo probably, and my auto correct substituted Jack. It was not intentional.

I didn’t do “a quick web search” on diabetes, as you assumed. I have a more holistic approach than you, not a limited one. I first started studying it 25 years ago. It is a very complex issue. I ran a quick search to see what some of the diabetic sites were currently saying about tapioca. My daughter has diabetes, and she eats carbs, including tapioca. So I checked, since I wouldn’t consider my daughter’s personal decisions an appropriate source on diabetes…

I chose to discuss meat based proteins being a superior canine diet and a natural segue of that is why I feed Brother’s, when I prefer balanced raw. You are the one focusing on the fact I talked about Brother’s, more than you are paying attention to everything else I said. Your comments seemed to imply that ANY tapioca was bad, and therefore any dog food with tapioca is bad. I’m explaining that its not. And since this is still a dog food forum discussing dog food ingredients, and no dog food is tapioca based, you’re obviously objecting to a proportionally very small amount of tapioca being used. That begs the question, why get all het up about that tiny bit of tapioca when grain based dog foods have a whole lot higher net GL…?

FYI I’m free to give my opinion of Brother’s Complete when ever I feel inclined.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Jack,
Its a good thing tapioca is used minimally in high end kibbles then, – just as a binder. Not like the corn based kibbles, which are mostly high glycemic starches. Though it is interesting that there is research showing animal fat & protein mediates glucose spikes & that endocrine disrupting hormones have a greater impact than modest carbohydrate consumption.

I ran a quick search and diabetics are allowed to eat some tapioca… It just has to be balanced.
Here’s a quote from a diabetes support site. Granted its from a human type I site, but the research said that because there wasn’t much on dogs, it was acceptable to correlate human diabetes Type I information to dogs.

“- Vegetables that should be consumed in limited quantities by diabetics are: High sugar vegetables and root vegetables like carrot, potato, beetroot, colocasia, sweet potato, yam, tapioca and other vegetables like artichoke, green plantain, tender jackfruit, broad beans, double beans, cluster beans.”

So limited quantities, not none. I certainly wouldn’t feed any of my dogs any predominantly starch based diet, tapioca or not. They weren’t designed to eat starch, as a staple. I prefer to feed a balanced raw, according to Steve Brown’s book, and Dr. Becker & Beth Taylor’s book. I feed raw & kibble because I can’t count on my health being stable. Like today, I started out great, but had a bad crash at 2:00, recovered and had a major crash at 6:00. Luckily I got on top of that one and am recovering fairly well at the moment. So I picked the absolute best kibble I could, for my girls, because I know my husband. He’s not going to feed raw if I croak over. I want them to all go on with as minimum disruption as possible. I feel the percentages of carbs, including the tapioca, and their combined glycemic indexes as compared to the meat, fat, bone, ratios & the ratios of other ingredients of Brother’s Complete Fish formula is the best. I also like how it doesn’t have the toxins that I see in a number of other “high end” kibbles. And according to some research papers, those dietary toxins are being recognized as having a much greater influence on promoting diabetes Type I (the kind that dogs typically get), than previously thought. My2¢

[Toxed2loss]

Tapioca is one of the alternative starches being used in higher end kibbles. Its gluten free, non-GMO, and when properly processed, non-toxic. In order to make, and bind kibble you must use a certain amount of starch. Tapioca is a good choice in that it is nontoxic, gluten & lectin free.

There is a lot of misinformation being disseminated about tapioca, so lets review the facts and set the record straight. There are no poisonings from properly processed tapioca flour. In fact, most poisonings occur in famine stricken areas where the starving individuals try to take short cuts in processing the raw cassava or manioc root. This is well documented. Tapioca has been safely consumed for thousands of years and is the main staple starch in African, Indonesian and South American diets. “500 million people rely on cassava as their main source of calories, among them subsistence farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa…”Richard Sayre, a professor of plant biology at Ohio State University
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“The Culprit in Cassava Toxicity: Cyanogens or Low Protein?
by G. Padmaja

The starchy roots of cassava (Manihot esculenta Crantz) are already a staple for about 500 million people of tropical Africa, Asia, and Latin America, but countless others might also benefit from this food if it were not for the sensationalism that sometimes surrounds the crop’s potential toxicity.
The cassava plant carries two cyanogenic glucosides, linamarin and lotaustralin, in its edible roots and leaves. The amounts of these potentially toxic compounds vary considerably, according to cultivar and growing conditions. “Sweet” varieties usually have such small amounts as to be innocuous, whereas “bitter” varieties have sufficiently high levels to require domestic processing to remove most of the toxins.

In situations where famine or extreme poverty may force a population to eat poorly processed cassava in a diet that is also deficient in nutrients such as protein, the plant’s cyanogenic glucosides can lead to poisoning. A classic case was the infantile kwashiorkor epidemic in famine-stricken Biafra in 1968, but there have also been recent examples of spastic paraparesis, or konzo, in drought-stricken regions of Mozambique and Tanzania.

Detoxifying cassava

Farming populations who cultivate cassava have developed many methods of detoxifying cassava. Boiling and drying are sufficient to make low-cyanogen cultivars safe for consumption, but more rigorous procedures such as grating, fermenting, and sun-drying, are necessary to effectively remove cyanogens from cultivars of higher toxicity.

The protein link

Whenever a chronic disease has been linked to cassava consumption, the victims have also been found to suffer from protein deficiency, suggesting a relationship between the two.

Protein is essential for all the body’s vital functions, and for eliminating certain dietary toxins. With the help of the enzyme rhodanese, the human body detoxifies cyanide by forming thiocyanate. When the body is regularly exposed to cassava cyanogens, the increased synthesis of rhodanese makes extra demands on the body’s reserves of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. To detoxify 1.0 mg hydrocyanic acid (HCN), the body also needs a daily supply of about 1.2 mg of dietary sulfur (S) from S- containing amino acids (SAA). If the demand for rhodanese and SAA is prolonged, as in the regular consumption of cassava, and the diet is inadequate, the synthesis of many proteins vital for bodily functions may be impaired, leading to the development of protein deficiency diseases.

Cassava – low protein source

Cyanogens alone cannot be blamed for toxicity because other cyanogenic crops, such as sorghum and Lathyrus bean, which are widely used as food, cause few toxicity problems. But the protein contents of these two crops (11.0% and 18.7%, respectively) are higher.

Many cassava products contain very low amounts of cyanogens, which can be efficiently eliminated by the body, if the protein intake is adequate. Cassava roots, being bulky and rich in carbohydrates, free dietary proteins from having to meet the body’s energy needs, thus allowing them to be used more efficiently. However, the level of protein in cassava lags far behind the levels found in rice, wheat, and tuber crops (Figure 1). An adult consuming 1 kg of cassava has to ingest 52 g of protein from other sources to obtain the U.S. recommended daily allowance (RDA) of 65 g protein per adult. In contrast, 1 kg of wheat supplies 121 g of protein and rice, 61 to 64 g of protein.

If protein intake is more than adequate for both general metabolic requirements and cyanide elimination, toxic effects are lessened or even eliminated, even if cassava is improperly processed. (Fatal poisoning can result from ingestion of large amounts of unprocessed or poorly processed high-cyanogen cassava.) Hence, the lack of protein in cassava roots is probably responsible for most non-fatal cases of cyanide poisoning associated with cassava.”
http://www.worldbank.org/html/cgiar/newsletter/Oct96/6cassava.html
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Notice it was cassava and not tapioca, that caused the poisonings. Notice also that they weren’t in the US, but in impoverished areas, in developing nations, and there was a lack of sufficient dietary protein.
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Nutritional profile of cassava
Cassava root is essentially a carbohydrate source.[27] Its composition shows 60–65 percent moisture, 20–31 percent carbohydrate, 1–2 percent crude protein and a comparatively low content of vitamins and minerals. However, the roots are rich in calcium and vitamin C and contain a nutritionally significant quantity of thiamine, riboflavin and nicotinic acid. Cassava starch contains 70 percent amylopectin and 20 percent amylose. Cooked cassava starch has a digestibility of over 75 percent.
Cassava root is a poor source of protein. Despite the very low quantity, the quality of cassava root protein is fairly good in terms of essential amino acids. Methionine, cysteine and cystine are, however, limiting amino acids in cassava root.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Cassava
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THE HEALTH BENEFITS OF TAPIOCA
Aug 5, 2011 | By Kristi Wray

Conventionally, tapioca, derived from the cassava plant, is best known as a creamy pudding dessert with little sustenance. However, in some in areas like Africa, Asia and South America, tapioca is known better for its nutritional benefits than as a sweet treat. When eaten raw or incorrectly prepared, the plant releases poisonous properties. Thus, tapioca must be prepared correctly to prevent harm and ensure safe eating.

STARCH EQUALS ENERGY
The cassava plant is a root vegetable and a healthy source of carbohydrates. In many countries, it serves as a main dish because of its high starch content. Even better, it is considered a healthy starch because it is low in cholesterol and unhealthy fats. Tapioca can be included in dietary plans to promote healthy weight gain.

GLUTEN-FREE
People suffering with Celiac disease or other conditions that restrict the use of gluten-based foods can use tapioca as an alternative to recipes that use wheat flour. Tapioca flour, which does not contain any gluten, is a healthier alternative to wheat flour. Both tapioca flour and tapioca starch can be used as a thickening agent in cream-based sauces and gravies.

MINERALS
Calcium, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium can be found in tapioca in varying amounts. If you are preparing a more processed form of the root, like a pudding mix, you will receive a smaller amount of these minerals than if you were to consume tapioca starch or flour. Tapioca is also a good source of iron, and, in particular, dry tapioca pearls contain up to 13 percent of your daily value of iron. B-vitamins, including folic acid, which is extremely vital for pregnant women, are also found in tapioca.

DIETARY FIBER
Over the years, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has placed extreme importance on the consumption of dietary fiber on a daily basis for a healthier lifestyle. The cassava root has a significant amount of dietary fiber in its natural form. According to the USDA, foods high in dietary fiber can help lower cholesterol, decrease the rate of colon cancer, and lower the risk of diabetes and heart disease.” http://www.livestrong.com/article/509033-the-health-benefits-of-tapioca/
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So there you have it. A factual picture of tapioca starch, without the scare tactics.

[Mike Sagman]

Hi Fishdog,

Sorry to hear about your dog’s diabetes. You may get more responses if you’ll re-post your comment under the Diet and Health Forum. Hope this helps.

[fishdog]

I have an 11 year old Alaska Husky, former sled dog, that bwas diagnosed with diabetes last winter. After a lot of experimenting with diet and insulin we finally achieved a workable balance with raw food. All went well untill recently (3 weeks ago) when his blood sugar levels became consistently elevated. We have tried varieties of new foods and insulin amounts with nothing more than temporary results.
This dog has had a very active life as a working sled dog, skijorer, and running companion and was on a low fat die prior to the diabetes due to a severe bout with pancreatitus. Currently he is able to do little more that eat, drink, and sleep and appears to be in distress most of the time. Suggestions?

[Shawna]

Have them check the pups body condition if they aren’t already. If she’s losing weight then they need to feed her more than what is suggested — it’s just a guideline. I have a 5 pound Pom and a 5 pound Chihuahua. The Chihuahua eats over twice as much food as the Pom or she starts to lose weight. The Pom starts to gain on any more.

If she’s not losing weight and still ravenous, I’d have her checked by a vet for any illnesses that can cause that as a symptom — diabetes, cushings etc. Certain meds can cause it too if she’s on any meds.

[MAGGIESMOM]

I just found out that my pug Maggie has diabetes.. i was told by my vet that she needs a shot of insulin twice a day right after eating.. 12 hours apart… does anyone know if they can eat anything inbetween feedings.. I have other dogs and they get healthy treats.. but I dont include maggie .. it kills me not to..