Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diets (Dry)

Hi, just stumbled over this while checking on dog food recalls… I had a sweet grey “Ollie” who after 5 yrs of racing was dumped along side the road, on his own for over a year when we got him into our rescue group – his skin and coat were a hot mess. Our vet/allergist recommended the Iams Vet Formula which along with some Atopica capsules, fixed him up in no time at all. Kanagroo is the main protein… do you think your hound can handle Kanagroo? The kangaroo protein atom is a structure that most US dogs have not been subjected to, so they don’t equate it with the other proteins that trigger allergies. My vet explained that a lot of the protein atoms “look” like bad organisms and that’s why the allergic response. The Atopica caps worked like the high-priced magic it is and lucky Ollie,the meds eliminated his multi-toe corn problem – it was magic! They just disappeared in a few months. woodward.rochelle56@gmail.com

I have two small breed dogs and they both eat NB Venison and Sweet Potato. My older dog is a 7 year old maltese/toy poodle and he had some skin issues. He’s been on this food for 3 years now and looks great and doesn’t have any tummy issues. So far, so good with Natural Balance.

I eat a relatively healthy diet, I don’t drink soda pops, LOVE veggies, limited sweets, organic meats and animal proteins etc. But early in my twenties I was diagnosed with pernicious anemia. I had an bleeding ulcer prior to that so assumed I wasn’t making intrinsic factor. Mid twenties I started giving blood to the red cross and was told every time (about every 3 months) that I was on the low side of iron — not too low to give blood but too low to give platelets. In thirties was diagnosed with hypothyroid.
In my late thirties I quit smoking (yeah I know) and increased my intake of salads. I LOVED adding high quality cheese to the salads. I also allowed myself a commercial made latte (milk and espresso only – no sugar or flavoring). I did quit but got sicker and sicket. After about six months I was so sick that I went to an internal specialist (referred by other doctors). She had no clue and referred me to a M.D. that treats holistically and is also a Certified Clinical Nutritionist. I literally was in her office for five minutes when she said “I know what is wrong”. She diagnosed a food intolerance and put me on an elimination diet. I felt so good on the diet that was only supposed to last six weeks I went an additional two monthsish before reintroducing foods. Turns out I have an intolerance/allergy to dairy that had caused villous atrophy and all kinds of vitamin/mineral deficiencies and the symptoms of those like iodine deficiency hypothyroid.
Turns out, dairy is harder for me to give up than cigarettes were—BCM7 I’m sure. But as long as I take vitmains (whole food) I can avoid malnutrition symptoms — at least until I can give up the dairy once and for all.
My girlfriend’s doctors misdiagnosed her as well and removed her colon. She didn’t get better til she gave up gluten. I’ve talked to SO many in this same circumstance. A 3 year old childs mom reached out to a local health group for her child with psoriasis. Her doctors said it wasn’t caused by food but I suggested she eliminate the oatmeal and other “healthy” grains she ate and mom reported back that not only did the psoriasis clear up but her mood improved. How many more people go undiagnosed. And how many dogs go undiagnosed.
We KNOW that foods can damage the gut and cause malnutrition. And when you look for it, it appears to be far more prevalent than we might think. Vitamin supplements are a must for me and those damaged by food like me… By the way, I had absolutely no gut symptoms at all. Sorry this was sooo long…

Some specific people might be, true. But for somebody who eats a healthy balanced diet multi-vitamines are simply supporting a billion dollar industry. On the otherhand there are supplements that make sense taking, such as glucosamine etc…..

Taking vitamin supplement is not BS. For instance, many people are dificient in certain vitamins like vitamin D. However, this is beyond the point of our discussion.
Adding veggies may not be sufficient. Just like I said, some nutritional formulas have been problematic in the past, including “high end” baby formulas. Additionally, foods may not only be dificient, but also excessive or toxic. By feeding one type of food over long period of time you substantially increase the risk.

I am very aware of this having been in research for nearly 30 years. The amount of junk published is unbelievable, but we live in a publish or perish society.

Dr J, you are right in that feeding high quality is definitely very important. The only reason to rotate is that we don’t know for sure that the food is high quality and nutritionally complete. For instance, some foods may be deficient in important micronutrients, vitamins or taurine, and this may have a significant impact on your dog if fed long time. This happens occasionally even in human foods like baby formulas, or enteral nutrition formulas, because this is all they eat.

Good point!!

However, I think there are multiple reasons to rotate foods. If a dog is intolerant of, say, chicken if you rotate the chicken out often enough you allow the gut to heal. It’s also hard to believe that any one food is 100% ideally balanced. Many feel that by feeding only one food we “condition” our dogs to only tolerate one food. Those of us that rotate can change our dogs’ foods at a moments notice without any digestive distress at all.

I have a friend who raw feeds (I’m a raw feeder too). She adopted a dog that was over weight and started adding green beans to the diets of all the dogs daily. After about six weeks her Shiba Inu started having digestive issues. It ended up being the green beans. There are several on this site that found out the hard way that their dogs can’t tolerate potato as another example.

This is science talk. I never wrote in one of my papers, this is the reason period. It was always “this suggests” “our conclusion is that this may contribute”, “a strong link to”, “is a possibility” etc. Scientists are acutly aware that their findings are not absoluts.

Shawna,

IMO I think you don’t see where they are saying it is because of how you are interpreting what they said. : )

If I understand you right you believe that increased gut permeability is the root cause of food allergy. Yet even the links you provided report otherwise: “constitutive defects of the intestinal barrier are not the primary cause of allergic diseases.” “An abnormal intestinal permeability could contribute to establish an altered sensitivity to food-allergen” The authors say “could contribute” not not “causes”

I agree the permeability has a role but based on what I read the development of food allergy does not require an increased gut permeability.

In one source increased intestinal permeability was but one item in a whole list of items that may contribute to food allergy in dogs. The author said it wasn’t yet known what was the importance of each factor.

The reference you gave showing increased permeability in patients with food allergy reported the finding they didn’t say A caused B or A is necessary for B.

In fact the only significance difference in gut permeability was found between the grade 4 patients and the controls. In other words most patients with food allergy had normal permeability.

Then there is the whole chicken and the egg thing. If you follow the link on the same page another study reported that gut permeability is likely the result of cow milk allergy not the cause of it.

Looking further we can see that children with diarrhea score high on the gut permeability test too. So what does it all mean??

I see food allergy as a loss of tolerance, or inability to develop tolerance vs solely being as an exposure to antigen. Certainly you have to be exposed in some way but the intestine is always permeable. Then there are the APC’s and DC’s that carry antigen across as well( If I understand that right). This is the basis for forming oral tolerance.

Is it that you can have oral tolerance to a protein and then it is lost due to an overwhelming exposure?? I don’t know.

I’m not saying that gut permeability plays no role, maybe there is a “bystander effect” or a “threshold effect” I don’t know. Maybe that’s why some vets recommend lower protein diets.

If you understand it all than great! But it all confuses the heck out of me.

Yeah, I know!! I react to MSG and free glutamic/aspartic acids so I don’t eat very many processed foods to begin with..

I’m also allergic to dairy and apparently very reactive to BCM7 so even more foods, like milk chocolate bars and other foods with soya lecithin, are off the table too.. A few of my vitamins have soy lecithin but are supposed to be organic so………

You will be surprised how many common foods will contain GMO’s….My guess is basically almost all processed foods (if not all) containg corn starch syrup and soya lecithin will have GMO ingredients.

Basically the genes introduced and resulting products are commonly found in nature and we consume them by eating other plants which have specific resitances. Besides this point we are all eating genes and proteins on a daily basis and last I checked we do pretty well. As mentioned above the vast majority of proteins are denatured and enzymatically digest, and the same thing obviously happens with the nucleic acids. I simply cannot see a difference in risk between eating corn that has a gene inserted to be drought resistant versus corn that is not.
The debate has gone so far out of control and is driven by people who have not a great insight into biology. I have actually had people trying to convince me that only GMO food has genes when you eat them and that these genes are dangerouse because they could insert themselves into our DNA. This point is absolute rubbish. If genes could insert themselves spontaneously into our DNA we would have a gene therapy for plenty of diseases like cystic fibrosis. It is actuall pretty darn hard to get genes to be inserted in to cell used to study. At best I managed to “transfect” maybe 1% of primary lung cells with a gene encoding a specific protein that was tagged with green fluorescent protein so that I could follow it around the cell usin live fluorescent microscopy.

Actually MON won, but Schmeiser was resolved of having to pay anything, including legal fees to Monsanto. He did however lose his own legal fees.

The truth be known,Schmeiser was not exactly innocent in the whole matter. Noticing that when he sprayed roundup around utilitiy poles and ditches around his canola fields, much of the canola survived, and realized it was roundup resistant. He then alledgedly instructed a farmhand to spray a field of his canola with round up (about 3 to 4 acres). 60 percent of the canola survived. He then saved this seed and planted 1000 acres with it the following year..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser

“The hype about GMO’s as a major health risk is just plain silly.”

I’ve read and watched documentaries on the cons of GMO’s. Would you mind terribly explaining why you feel the hype is silly?

Silly or not, I will still avoid them for the reasons you mentioned plus others but I’m be interested in both sides of the story..

Well, one of the reasons for GMO’s is that they egineered to be resistant against much “milder” pesticides than what it used normally. The irony is that organic farmes, still use pesticides and some of them are much more aggressive than the stuff used on GMOs. However, I personally do avoid GMO’s mainly for two reasons, one I do not want to support companies like Monsanto, which clearly squeze farmers with their practicies and secondly I think the food just tastst terrible. The hype about GMO’s as a major health risk is just plain silly.

Aww aimee?? SIGH!!!

I see nowhere where they say they don’t understand how a food antigen triggers an immune response. My guess is they don’t fully understand why the immune system over reacts to a lowly ole allergen in the first place… Like dust — why would one react to dust and others don’t? We all breath it in. I can see why they don’t have ALL the answers. How exactly do probiotics prevent and treat allergies?

But there are definitely some things they have already figured out. You make it seem like it is all a big clueless mess.. They clearly (OBVIOUSLY) know about zonulin and gut permeability and what are some potential risk factors for gut permeability etc.

Thank you

There’s been some discussion that over time the dependancy on the pesticide increases in GMO crops.

I read the book “Seeds of Deception” by Jeffrey Smith and I personally won’t use ANY products made with GMO foods or the foods themselves when I can avoid them.

Additonally, it is well known that farmers can and are being sued by Monsanto for having GMO plants in their crops (even if not technically growing in the field but rather in the ditch between the road and field) from drifting seeds from a neighbors GMO plantings. There’s something very very wrong with this picture.

I also tend to think that keeping immune system healthy is a key. This includes not feeding processed foods
Consuming GMO processed corn as a main source of nutrition is harmful. Eating variety of good quality and fresh foods is much better and is natural for the immune system.

Very nice!!! I agree completely!!

I don’t buy that puppy, pun intended…We have been exposed to all sorts of allergens for a pretty darn long time and we are still pretty prolific in terms of population growth, be this humans or dogs. There is certain a gentic factor to it, probably more so in dogs than human, considering the extensive breed and selection they have undergone. Anothge factor not often discussed but which is instrumental, is that we live in an increasingly sterile world, even dogs, which undermines our immune system from day one. “If you don’t arm it you will harm”, it is my point of view. I am not running around cleaning every thing down with sanitizers, yes I get sick but I am usually done after a couple of days. It is part of life.

Thanks jellycat… yes the model is based on preventing a sensitization from developing in the new protein being fed as understood it.

Interesting!! Just left you a comment on lectins before reading this. Never mind guess you are aware of them I’ve been reading everything I can find on them for about a year now (Krispin, Dogtor J, Cordain etc).

I too have never heard of single amino acids causing an allergic reaction. Simply doesn’t make sense. Didn’t know it required as many as 30 to ellicit an immune response. Very interesting..

Thanks

I think aimee is talking about the process of sensitization, and not stimulation of alegic to already known allergen.

SO the premise is simply the more you expose yourself to a protein the more likely you are to get an allergic reaction.

It is true for some allergens such as latex, however; this is simply not true for most substances.

Acutaly, there are different transport mechanisms for amino acids and dipeptides. Aminoi acids are absorbed much quicker than for example dipeptides, which requyire an energy (ATP) dependent process. You have to bear in mind that some amino acids are essential, to be precise they are 10 for dogs, and cannot be generated de novo by dogs body. They need to be supplied by some means. To the best of my knowladge amino acids are never the cause of allergies, even di- and tripeptides (two or three amino acids combind) will not cause allergies since the immune system needs to recognize a minimum length of about 30 peptides, which is then also called an epitope (minimal unit to ellicit an immun response). These sequences already reach relativly high molecular weights and should not find their way into the blood stream unless the gut is breached. HOWEVER, there can also be inflammatory process in the gut which besides a breach can illicit immune reactions. The topic can go on adn on and on…
Lectins are a completly different kettle of fish, some of them can actually be pretty toxic or act as carcinogens to cells, others have the potential to block cellular receptors to prevent infections…..again a vast topic of research.

I’m trying to find the answer to my question — based on this it seems it is individual amino acids but I don’t think it is a cut and dry statement.. I found the part on “anti-nutritional factors” interesting.

“It is likely that faecal N digestibility does not take into account the loss from the colon of indispensable amino acids that were not absorbed in the ileum. Anti-nutritional factors, such as lectins and trypsin inhibitors, in several plant protein sources can cause heightened endogenous losses of amino acids, an issue which is particularly relevant in animal feedstuffs. The assumption that amino acid supplementation can completely restore biological efficiency of the protein source is incorrect since the kinetics of digestion and absorption between supplemented free amino acids and amino acids present in dietary proteins, are different.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23107546

Medical Insider says food allergies are more common in foods eaten most often.

“The other 10% of food allergies (the less common ones) involves the proteins of certain food sources. One example is a rice allergy. This tends to be more common in East and South East Asia where rice forms a large piet of the staple diet of the average person. Celery allergies tend to be more common in Central European populations.” http://www.medicalinsider.com/foodallergy.html

I’m sure you can find research that says just the opposite but obviously there is dispute on the topic.

Interestingly nuts and shellfish are two foods known to have problematic lectins. “Since that time lectins have been found in both plants and animals — particularly in edible cereals, beans, seeds, nuts, fish and shellfish.”

And lectins can “cause” food allergies. “When consumed in excess by sensitive individuals, they can cause 3 primary physiological reactions: Lectins can cause severe intestinal damage, disrupting digestion and causing nutrient deficiencies. (3) They can provoke IgG and IgM antibodies causing Gell-Coombs Type 2 food allergies and other immune responses. (3,4) And they can bind to erythrocytes, simultaneously with immune factors, causing hemagglutination and anemia.” http://www.biotype.net/diets/Lectin.pdf

So which came first, the intolerance causing gut permeability which allowed undigested proteins into the blood stream thus causing an allergic response, or the allergic reaction? I’m putting my money on the intolerance — at least in most cases… That seems to be what happened to me with my milk issues at least.

Some proteins resist digestion do they not?

My understanding is that the model is presuming that with less protein fed the fewer undigested/partially digested proteins are present to pass the breach and stimulate the immune system.

I’m not saying I subscribe to the model just that it has been proposed. Maybe I’m misunderstanding it as it has been a long time sine I read it.

Yes Shawna,

I’m aware of and have read a lot the literature to which you are referring. These are all pieces of the puzzle… but the puzzle is as of yet incomplete : )

Are you talking about the yeast starvation diet with DinOvite? It worked well for mine for long enough for me to research feeding raw. I still make it sometimes as a quick easy raw food, but I find it to be very limited as far as feeding it long term.

I have 4 dogs and they all love this dog food, I have had them on it for 2 years. But I use the Potato & Duck formula. Vet recommended it after we switched from Blue Buffalo. It is also Cheaper than Blue & my dogs don’t get sick from it. If your dogs aren’t good with it then post about it calmly and non disrespectful and then put your dogs on another dog food. I have gone thru 5 different grain free dog foods in last 5 years.

Therefore, it only makes sense not to feed plant based foods because plant based protein is less digestible. According to this logic, allergic reactions should be more common in dogs eating soy protein and corn gluten meals.

My Cocker Spaniel Riley, scratches his ears and chews his paws, I’m looking for a home made dog food for food allergie to help clear up this problem. I found a site, it is hamburger, eggs w/shells and eggs. Is this a good receipt for food allergies??????

Lindac1950

Fantastic!!!! Thank you Dr. J!!!!

What do you mean by undigested strands of protein? We have plenty of enzymes that breakdown proteins, some are very specific at which amino acid combination they will ‘cut” the protein others are not so specific. If undigested proteins get into the blood stream then there is an underlying gut problem which causes this to happen. Primarily the paracellular route is breached, which means there is a leak between the cells. Usually the paracellular route acts like a size exclusion filter. However inflammation and infections can lead to a breach, which in turn then can lead to allergies, because the immun system will detect the partially digested protein.

Hi Jellycat,

I always thought of it as if you fed a protein whose digestibility is 85% there are more undigested strands when feeding 40% of the diet as protein vs 20%.

I agree it is an unsubstantiated idea as is the idea that rotating proteins will prevent an allergic reaction from developing.

I’m just reporting that the idea is found in the vet literature and so could be why the original posters vet(?) made the recommendation

Interesting… seems pretty optimistic though. Needs more research — I’m not buying it yet. I think genetics also plays more of a role than that study is letting on.

I don’t see how exposure to less of an antigen will prevent a reaction? If a dog is sensitized or becoming sensitized to a protein source then antibodies exist and an inflammatory response is going to occur after exposure regardless, no?

Hi Shawna,

When I did some reading regarding food allergies I found that they are poorly understood. I know it is currently popular to say to rotate protein to prevent reactions, but in actuality there is no data to support that recommendation. It is a presumption.

Another presumption is that new reactions are less likely to develop when feeding food with protein levels closer to baseline levels. The presumption here is that there will be fewer antigen to stimulate a new reaction.

In this article that used Kirk’s Current Veterinary Therapy as a reference it recommends protein levels at 16-20%.

http://www.labbies.com/foodreactions.htm

My IBS dog was having issues because of grains in the diet. When we got him completely off grains and on to a low carb, high protein, moderate fat diet, he never showed another symptom of IBS again.

No offense to your vet Jessiross but that is silly.. My father is a retired Naturopath and he would have never told someone to eat less protein due to food allergies. Instead he would have told them to avoid the protein that is causing the reaction.

Additionally, true allergies (those that cause an IgE immune response) are not very common. MUCH more common is intolerances which cause an IgA immune response). And foods that often cause intolerances are wheat (as well as barley, rye and often oats), soy (all legumes), potato and other nightshade plants, dairy, eggs etc. I have a friend whose dog has reactions to green beans.

Holistic vet Dr. Karen Becker says this about preventing allergies “In my opinion, the very best way to prevent food allergies in your pet is to feed a balanced, species-appropriate diet. I recommend raw food. You can either make food at home, or you can buy a commercially prepared raw food diet. Whichever way you go, I also recommend strictly limiting or at least reducing the amount of grains and carbohydrates in your pet’s diet.” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/05/07/protein-diets-for-pets-allergy.aspx

Nutritionist Lew Olsen PhD in an article titled “Skin Problems Part II – Allergies or Food Intolerances” writes “The most important step in addressing your dog’s health and immune system is to feed a diet that is easy to digest, has protein variety, contains bioavailable nutrients and has low plant fiber content. This would include either a raw diet with no carbohydrates added or a home cooked diet that consists of 75% animal protein and 25% low glycemic (low sugar), low fat carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are sugars, so we select either a ‘no carb’ or a low glycemic carbohydrate diet to put less labor on the dog’s digestive tract and remove ‘empty’ calories. In a cooked diet, the carbohydrates act as fiber, which is why they are necessary. Carbohydrates are not needed in a raw diet as the bones act as the fiber.” http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/skin-problems-part-ii-allergies-or-food-intolerances/

There is absolutely no reason to limit the amount of protein fed when dealing with allergies or intolerances. What is important however is to avoid the food/s causing the reaction and to vary the diet so as not to set the body up for future issues to additional foods.

Additionally, I would question the recommendation to add rice to a complete and balanced diet on a regular basis. Rice (and other grains) are known to cause mineral deficiencies (such as a zinc deficiency) because the anti-nutrients in these grains (like phytates) bind with minerals and prevent their absorption. In addition to this, the amount and quality of protein also has a positive or negative impact on zinc absorption. Higher amounts of quality protein has a positive impact on zinc absorption. http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full

Again, no disrespect to your vet but I would question his/her knowledge on “species approporiateness” of the foods and recommendations he/she is making.

Why is it hard to believe? We went through the same thing with our greyhound for a year and a half, and finally found natural balance lamb and rice, it’s the only thing that has worked for him. We tried at least 10-15 different foods. Yes, I wish it was a little higher in protein, but his IBS is gone, he’s happy and healthy and THAT’S what’s matters.

I find what you said very hard to believe.

My dog died of kidney disease just 2 weeks after my vet put her on Hill’s Science Diet K/D. I only wish I knew then what I have learned from Shawna since.

Rick –

I’m not saying venison isn’t novel. I’m saying venison is red meat. The poster I was responding to said her dogs couldn’t eat any red meat then proceeded to say they eat venison – venison is red meat, so therefore her dog could eat red meat.

Thats fine she does, it’s courtesy to click “reply” to the post you’re replying to, not all of us can follow along. By the way, Shawna has a great life, from what I’ve gathered in talking to her and she doesn’t hound people. She’s extremely helpful to those who need canine nutrition help. Obviously, people need help or they wouldn’t be asking here.

Zack dogs eat meat independent of age. Unlike humans their body is primed for this. High protein diets in humans can lead to complications, because we are mainly veggy and fruit eaters. We have two 12 year old 100 pounders and they do brilliantly on a high protein diet, in fact infinitly better than on the grain containing crap we fed them for way too long out of my ignorance.

What a funny discussion over the last several hours. We are talking about creatures that eat poo and rotten meat, insects, dead mice and birds and then we elevate the discussion to such heated arguments. Dogs are canivores and means lot’s of proteins and fat, period. They eat grass and other vegies if they are hungry or need them as a “supplement”, bu they will always choose the steak over the baked potato, that is simply the reality. They probably will also choose horse manur over the backed potato, that is if they are real dogs…..

These posts caught my eye and I read them….I don’t see any arguing here at all, just a few people commenting with knowledge they have about kidney issues with dogs.

Hi Rick6892 ~~ didn’t say I was right about everything. In fact 3 hours ago I publicly admitted I was wrong about villous atrophy and pallegra right here on this site “I concede defeat on the pellegra front..” However, simply disagreeing with someone and posting my opinion AND backing it up with sources doesn’t make me “need” to be right. That is my point.

Why is wanting the truth out considered bullying?

Who are you speaking to? You did not reply to a particular person.

Trust me, I’m not following “you” per se. I’m following certain topics, which you always seem to have to put your two cents into. You’re quite a piece of work. And frankly you are not worth the time of an argument.

Then you must not have much of a life at all if you have to keep hounding people. I’ve followed a lot of your posts, and I know you have a need to be right.
My advice then is for the people who are doing the best things for their dogs because they know THEIR dogs: Continue doing what is right for your dog, and ignore these pushy idiots. If they won’t move on, you’ll need to.

Would everyone just stop arguing about it!? People have to do what is best for *their* dog. If their dog does better on a lower protein diet, and the blood work and Vet are able to verify that, then they are doing the right thing for their dog. If some dogs do better on higher protein, then that’s fine. Everyone has to do what is best for their own dog!! Now move on. PLEASE

Sorry afterthought. I don’t think your vet did a good job of explaining kidney disease to you Zack. Symptoms of “chronic” kidney disease, like elevated bloodwork (BUN and creatinine), do not begin to show up until the kidneys are about 70% damaged. Once this far damaged they can not be repaired again. Kidneys do not regenerate like the liver or other organs.

BUN can be elevated for multiple reasons. Creatinine is a much better indicator of how the kidneys are functioning. If creatinine is not elevated, along with BUN, than it is likely not chronic kidney disease.

Also, once damaged to this degree it is very important to watch how the body is handling phosphorus (via bloodwork) and to alter the amount of phosphorus (not protein) in the diet as needed. Phosphorus DOES lead to further kidney damage when the kidneys are already faltering.

Hi Zack,

Hound Dog Mom is right, senior dogs actually need more protein than adult dogs. But I’m posting regarding your comment about kidney failure.

The dog in my avatar has had kidney failure since birth (this is called congenital kidney disease). Thing is, she has been on a diet that is significantly higher in protien than Orijen her whole life. Life expectancy for a dog with congenital kidney disease is age 2. Audrey will be 7 years old the end of June 2013. She eats a raw food diet consisting of anywhere from 45 to 54% protein (Orijen adult formula is 38% protein). Not only is Audrey still with me but she is unmedicated and VERY healthy.

There are many different things besides kidney failure that can cause elevated BUN on bloodwork. Dehydration as an example.

Additionally, they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt now that high protein does not cause kidney disease and in fact once the kidneys are damaged it does not contribute to further damage. That is why my pup can eat such a high protien diet. With kidney disease the quality of the protien has more impact than the total amount.

Dr. Mike actually addressed this very topic last week with an excellent research article. Dr. Mike wrote

“The mistaken belief that high protein diets cause kidney disease in normal dogs is outdated and no longer accepted by most veterinary professionals.

For proof, I refer you to an important article by Dr. Kenneth Bovee, Emeritus Professor of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. The report is most appropriately entitled, “Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function”.

Dr. Bovee concludes is article by saying…

“…the continued existence of this false myth about dietary protein is an uncomfortable reminder of the lack of sophistication, lack of critical thought, and reliance on oversimplified and attractive dogma that persists in our profession.

“This is only one example of many false myths, misinformation, and partial truths that are repeated from decade to decade.”

The article was published in the respected (and peer-reviewed) Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian in 1999 and includes not less than 47 scientifically referenced footnotes.” http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/hills-science-diet-dog-food-mature-adult-dry/#comment-822591041

What kind of reaction does your dog get to each of these ingredients? How long is your dog on a food before you switch to another brand? Does he / she get skin allergies and itching or more severe reactions. Did your dog actually have allergy tests to determine what is a true allergy?

Its hard to imagine having a dog allergic to so many things, that would be awful;.

My dog is a senior dog, we have tried a few different foods including California Naturals, Inova, Orijen and a few others, We always had issues with them even though they are fairly decent brands, We switched to the Bison formula of Natural Balance and he is doing great on it. We had several blood works in the last 2 years and all is perfect which is amazing considering he is a large dog and 11 years old..His kidneys are great now, He had tested for onset of kidney failure while on Orijen which is a awesome food, but for a senior dog, way too high on protein. The proof was in the blood work, He has being doing great on the Bison formula
and not one thing is out of range on his blood tests Every dog is different and at each age has different needs, you just need to find what works for them

Orijen was working… For about 2 days. Then it was a huge struggle to get her to eat. A fortune in canned foods later, I was really worried about her (and my) emotional well being. After weeks I had to give up. Why make her miserable and spend hours trying to get her to eat when what she likes IS an excellent food. And she is so healthy, and energetic and beautiful. In the rescue I work with we use a lot of natural balance, lid and otherwise. These are beaten down abused pit bulls whom many have sprung back to life on natural balance.

Linda –

I realize beef if a common allergen. However, the individual I was responding to didn’t say that her dog had a beef allergy – she said her dog couldn’t eat any red meat, then proceeded to say her dog did well on venison based foods. I was pointing out that venison is a red meat, so if a dog does well on venison it is not intolerant of all red meats. I’ve tried venison plenty of times, in fact my dogs had raw venison (shot by my dad) for breakfast this morning. My dogs don’t have sensitivities and tolerate venison just as well as they tolerate beef.

Last I thought I read, the Orijen was working great for you and you were raving about it!! Must have missed your post stating otherwise. Sorry it didn’t work out!!!

Did you ever think that the issue had to do with staying away from a certain ingredient, not that NB is an “excellent food”?

NB is not an excellent food, it’s an “okay” food. While you can do much worse than NB, you can also do much better. Either find the ingredient that’s the issue and stay away from it, or find another food with similar ingredients but isn’t full of potatoes like NB is.

I believe most of the frequent posters here have multiple dogs. It is not always possible to feed one food to all the dogs. I have almost always had three dogs & I’ve never been able to do that, not if I want all the dogs to get what they need. You mentioned up there somewhere that NB is an excellent food. They have alot of foods, some are pretty good but some aren’t. You want your food to start with a meat, not a potato.

Obviously these people don’t understand that when feeding multiple dogs it is best to find a food that the healthy for all of them. Also BEEF meat cannot be tolerated by many dogs. If any of these people would talk to EXPERTS they would find that over the years dogs have built up intolerances to foods that we have commonly fed them, i.e. chicken and beef. By switching to duck, potato, fish you are still providing a healthy protein but they are less likely to have problems with digesting those proteins. Study this people!!! Yes venison is a red meat , however not one the dogs have eaten over the years. Use your brains, common sense.

I have been feeding my Standard Poodles Natural Balance Duck and Potato for three years, they are doing GREAT! One of my standards had stomach issues. After I switched to the Duck and potato he has never had another problem. They are full of energy and look great. When we have puppies I wean them on the same food.

No Jens, it isn’t what you are saying. You said unless they meal over with anaphylaxis, it isn’t an allergy. That’s simply not true. And while there are varying degrees of allergic reactions, continued exposure to specific allergens will cause the reactions to increase in severity until anaphylactic shock occurs. Unless some intervention, like introduction of Benadryl, the allergic reactions can become deadly.

No treats. Just dinner at 630. This is fairly new and I just started this food less than a month ago. The lady at the pet supply store told me this would be gentle on her stomach after being sick (diarrhea/ vomiting) and on a low res prescription diet for about a week.

my dog is one the lamb and brown rice. i have never seen her so thirsty. she usually sleeps through the night, but wakes me up every morning around 3 am and runs downstairs to gulp water now.

I am still using the NB canned food, but just a spoon full over the recommended serving of Orijen. When I run out I might try EVO’s venison canned food, or something. Or Ziwi Peak, to throw in more organ meats since it has them. I wanted to change all along but I was afraid that Natalia would not cooperate, so I kept trying to justify feeding her a food so low in protein. Finally it kept bothering me so I took the plunge Plus she was getting chunky from all the carbs I suppose.

Oh mward1993 ~~ That definitely does make me happy!!! Yay!!!!!!!!!

You could go higher in protein if you want (by adding canned or healthy protein leftovers etc) but yeah, I think 38% is enough if you don’t want to supplement.

Good for you and good for her!!!!

PS — sorry for the delayed response. Been preoccupied with a new project.

Zignature is a grain-free/potato-free food, and comes in trout/salmon, turkey, and lamb flavors. California Natural has a couple good options as well in their Salmon and Peas, as well as their Kangaroo and Lentils (both grain-free/potato-free).

My Golden was tested for allergies and turns out she is allergic to white potato. I was feeding her the Duck and Potato limited ingredient so I switched to the Sweet Potato and Fish. A year later and not much improvent I finally read the ingredients and was surprised (and angry) to find that the Sweet Potato and Fish had POTATO in it! This volates the intent of limited ingredient diets and I am switching to a different brand. Lesson Learned–read the ingredients and not just the label, and stay away from brands that use cheep filler like potato fiber.

I apologize if you posted this before, but how much does she weigh?

If it works for your dog, by all means continue feeding it. Sometimes the foods with higher protein don’t work well with other dogs, like mine. It has to also be about what works for the individual dog.

I dont really like the potato and duck formula…which is why I feed legume and duck meal. Meat is the first ingredient. 

It is a higher fat food than this, and probably better utilized, so you would need to feed less.

hi

forget the natural balance, won’t eat it, even mixed with wet. have a bag of acana pacifica – been feeding that to her today and she is eating it – yeah!!!!!!!!!!!
going to rotate the pacifica with the other regionals

thanks for your help

Feed the recommended amount and weight should not be an issue. Ive fed my two greyhounds natural balance for over a year now and they are still as lean as ever

Its perfectly healthy. 

My dog is now successfully eating Legume and Duck Meal (should be Duck Meal and Legume as duck meal is first) with a bit of canned food. 22.5% protein, with the canned its higher. 

I have food allergies- like lots of people- which are true allergies, not intolerances, which result in hives, swelling, etc and not anaphylaxis. Ask any allergy specialist or GP and they will tell you that food or seasonal allergies range in severity. There is no reason to say it would be different for dogs.

Greyhound Mom, buy the Nature’s Domain food from Costco. It’s $35 a bag and is rated 4 stars. It’s the best deal possible for a good food.

Sorry for the late response, but I logged off the computer for the day before you asked.

I’m in Columbus, OH. 

What I find funny is you want something you can buy locally, when I ask for a town and state )so I can look up the store locators for you) you reply with “CT”. 
I believe most people realize that not all stores sell the same foods. By the way, can you please pick one name to post as? It’s very confusing

Specifically, beef. Edited to add that this is Veronica. I was able to merge my accounts I think!

Yes, it supposedly merged the two accounts, which I wasn’t even aware I had, but now when I post from my iPad its my full name, and from my iPhone its just my first name. Whatever…ugh

I mentioned it in a previous post – Connecticut

How is it that your dog can’t have red meat, but is eating venison and sweet potato food? Venison is red meat.

Locally to where? It’s hard to tell you what food is available in your area if we don’t know what town and state you live in.

You might have already looked since it is in the list from Hounddogmom, but Instinct LID only has 5 ingredients and it is now in Petco as well as feedstores/boutiques.

http://www.instinctpetfood.com//product/instinct-grain-free-limited-ingredient-kibble-dog-food-lamb

Also Acana Classic Single Protein Lamb & Apple (not grain free but no rice)

http://acana.com/products/lamb-okanagan-apple

 WHATEVER.

Visit Doctorsfinest.com and look at Great Life RX LID and Pioneer Naturals.  They might have some choices for you.  I haven’t looked at them all myself.

 Its not necessary. As a senior veterinary medical student I can safely say that all reviews on this site are biased and bogus. If the reviewers ever took a single science course or studied animals for 8+ years they would know the slightest bit of fact…this site has NONE!

Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance Lamb or Rabbit.  Grandma Lucy’s Artison Pork or Lamb.  Pretty limited in ingredients and can be bought at your local pet boutique or feedstore.

On the bag probably isn’t good enough, it has to be part of the name of the food.

She’s already changed her point three times, but seems to think that proves her right.  It started out about protein levels for senior dogs and when that didn’t work for her, she tried to make out like the whole discussion is about the quality of this food brand, and when that didn’t work for her, all of a sudden it’s about the specific ingredients her dog can’t handle and the words “limited ingredient diet”.

You asked a question… it was answered. What’s the problem? Or are you just buying time until you figure out a way to word your question differently and try to continue to make your point (whatever that is)?

Why would/do you need/want a limited ingredient food if a “non-limited ingredient” food (the ones HDM mentioned) doesn’t otherwise contain the ingredients you specified????

Veronica – Do you know what limited ingredient even means? It means not containing ingredients that commonly trigger sensitivities and allergies. Every food on that list if you compare ingredients – to compare apples to apples – is as much if not more limited in ingredients than Natural Balance. A food doesn’t need to say “limited ingredient” to be a limited ingredient food. Read an ingredients list. And fyi – Nature’s Variety Instinct offers a line of foods labeled limited ingredient, as does Great Life and Zigature’s whole line is marketed as limited ingredient. You’re severely limiting your dogs’ options by only looking into foods that specifically say limited ingredient on the bag – many of those I listed meet your criteria and are MUCH higher quality than Natural Balance. If you want your dog to eat potatoes, that’s your call – we’re all just trying to help you see that there are other (better) options.