Bravo Balance Dog Food (Raw Frozen)

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Rating: ★★★★★

Bravo Balance Raw Dog Food receives the Advisor’s highest rating of five stars.

The Bravo Balance product line includes three raw frozen dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review:

  • Bravo Balance Premium Beef Formula
  • Bravo Balance Premium Turkey Formula
  • Bravo Balance Premium Chicken Formula

Bravo Balance Premium Chicken Raw Dog Food was selected to represent the others in the line for this review.

Bravo Balance Premium Chicken Formula

Raw Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 55% | Fat = 18% | Carbs = 19%

Ingredients: Chicken, chicken frames, chicken organs (liver, gizzards, hearts), green beans, broccoli, acorn squash, salt, potassium chloride, vitamin E, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, potassium iodide, vitamin D

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 4.5%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis12%4%NA
Dry Matter Basis55%18%19%
Calorie Weighted Basis46%38%16%

The first item in this dog food lists chicken. Chicken is considered “the clean combination of flesh and skin… derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken”.1

Chicken is naturally rich in the ten essential amino acids required by a dog to sustain life.

The second ingredient includes chicken frames, the remaining bony carcass of a slaughtered chicken after most of the flesh and organs have been removed.

The third ingredient describes chicken organs, specifically the liver, gizzards and heart.

The next three items include nutrient-rich vegetables

  • Green beans
  • Broccoli
  • Acorn squash

Also, the minerals listed here do not appear to be chelated which can make them more difficult to absorb. However, we are reassured to find a detailed list of all naturally included nutrients (for each recipe) on the company’s website.2

Bravo Balance Raw Frozen Dog Food
The Bottom Line

With human-grade, antibiotic-free poultry and hormone-free, grass fed red meat, Bravo Balance Raw Dog Food can certainly be considered an above-average product.

But ingredient quality alone cannot tell the full story. It’s still vital to estimate the amount of real meat present before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 62%, a fat level of 25% and an estimated carbohydrate content of 6%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 54% and a mean fat level of 20%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 18% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 38%.

Above-average protein. Below-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical raw dog food.

Free of any plant-based protein boosters, this looks like the profile of a raw food containing an abundance of meat.

Those looking to mimic a dog’s natural ancestral diet will find the Bravo Balance raw product line an excellent candidate.

And because of each product’s ultra-simple, single protein design, these dog foods make ideal selections for dogs with allergies.

Bottom line?

Bravo Balance is a meat-based raw dog food using an abundant amount of raw beef or poultry as its main sources of animal protein… thus earning the brand five stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

For more suggestions, be sure to visit the Advisor’s Recommended Raw Dog Foods summary page.

Special Alert

Rice ingredients can sometimes contain arsenic. Until the US FDA establishes safe upper levels for arsenic content, pet owners may wish to limit the total amount of rice fed in a dog's daily diet.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, our rating system is not intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in specific health benefits for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

06/12/2010 Original review
01/12/2011 Review updated
10/17/2012 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  2. Bravo Website, 6/12/2010
  • Pattyvaughn

    Mortons lite salt has potassium chloride as well as sodium chloride, so it is a good source of potassium, but when you are making homemade food you still need to make sure your dog is getting the correct amount of sodium.

  • Brenda

    I just read that using morton lite salt is the preferred salt to use

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  • InkedMarie

    me too!

  • InkedMarie

    I just finished reading an article in the WDJ about raw feeding/minimal vaccinating regarding therapy dogs/boarding/grooming etc. The author of the article, who is a RR breeder says that we all survived touching shopping carts and not washing hands after. She’s right.

  • Guest

    Agreed for the most parts, except where wolves venture into farms and attack livestock. Wolves don’t know the difference between commercial livestock and non-commercial. I know there’s been French cases of this ongoing occurrence as well as in US Wisconsin. Probably more cases as well.

    Downunder, dingoes prefer kangaroo over say sheep, and it’s less of a problem here, but when there’s a shortage of kangaroos for whatever reason, dingoes too, grow bold for farm raised livestock. Even human babies, if given the chance, as per the Chamberlain case in point, which the courts finally ruled. However, just on that, I’ve always still have my doubts about the dingo taking a human baby.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    There was an article on the Pet Food Industry hinting at HPP becoming necessary. They were applauding Stella & Chewy’s for their patented HPP process and the article stated:

    According to Marsden,
    professor of food safety at Kansas State University: “Under the Food
    Safety Modernization Act, the Food and Drug Administration will likely
    require all petfood manufacturers to develop and implement a written
    food safety plan for review and approval by FDA. These food safety plans
    will include HACCP-based, validated interventions to eliminate and
    control harmful bacteria and other food safety hazards. For the raw
    petfood industry, this means that their processes must be designed to
    eliminate harmful bacteria during the manufacturing process.

  • monkey

    Wolves don’t each animals that are commercially raised on a large scale neither. That being said, Bravo should just pick better suppliers where the risk of salmonella is lower.

  • Guest

    Another reason to realise that, “hang on, did wild wolves’ foods go through the HPP process?”, and stop making these companies money and divert that money to your local butchers, and meat markets, instead. Your dogs will be a whole lot healthier just as Mother Nature intended. :)

  • Alexandra

    I’ll be first in line for the book!

  • Shawna

    If that does happen I’ll be back to making my own homemade foods too..

    You better start assembling your balanced diets in an easy to follow manuscript cause you may be called upon to sell a recipe ebook some time in the near future. Seriously!!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    This is getting ridiculous – the AVMA and FDA and their germ-phobia are permeating everything. How about companies focus on sourcing quality meat and using clean manufacturing facilities rather than pressurizing away bacteria? I saw this coming when the AVMA announced their policy on raw last summer and I think the FDA is going to start mandating that all companies have some sort of sterilization process in place in the near future. I have a feeling that non-HPP (true) commercial raw products are soon going to be a thing of the past. Makes me glad I make my dogs’ food.

  • InkedMarie

    Info from Bravo:

    “May 10, 2013

    To Our Loyal Bravo! Customers,

    In our constant efforts to provide you and your companion animals with healthy, wholesome products, we have begun making all of our poultry products, beginning with those manufactured on or after April 25, 2013, using high pressure processing (HPP).

    Bravo! is going to this manufacturing method as an added layer in our already comprehensive quality control and safety program. Bravo! has a program of continuous improvement in our products and production methods in order to offer the safest and healthiest products possible for your companion animals. The health and well-being of our customers is of the utmost importance.

    High Pressure Processing is process that inactivates the bacteria (salmonella, e-coli, listeria). After Bravo! has been made, will be placed in a high pressure chamber for several minutes. The high pressure breaks down and inactivates the pathogens with minimal changes to the finished product. HPP is a 100% natural process without the addition of any chemicals, irradiation, preservatives or other non-natural additives. High Pressure Processing is USDA and FDA approved as an anti-pathogenic process for many foods.

    Our research into this process over the last several years has shown that the HPP’d product will have the same taste, flavor, smell color and virtually all of the same nutritional benefits. The most significant change you will notice is that the product’s texture will be a bit firmer than in the past.

    Bravo! selected HPP as an additional process because the technology has advanced to allow for temperature control throughout the process consistent with Bravo!’s philosophy of less is more when it comes to making our products. All of Bravo!’s strict safety and quality steps used before and after the HPP process will remain in place. Bravo! also joins several of the other leading raw diet brands is using HPP as an added safety step.

    An additional result of this change will be an increase in cost for adding the HPP process. We apologize for this. We have tried to minimize the increase by absorbing as much of the increase as we could. Even with the increase, Bravo! will remain one of the best values on the market among the leading brands.

    We appreciate your continued support as we work to provide the best possible products to you, our loyal Bravo! customers and your companion animals.

    Sincerely,

    Dave Bogner Bette Schubert

    Owner – Founder Founder

    below is link to items to be HPP’d
    http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101724664258-146/HPaffectedPdctsList.pdf

    below is a link to More information: questions & answers

    http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101724664258-148/BravoConsumerLtrvFNL5_10FNL.pdf

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Poultry is more likely to be contaminated with salmonella.

  • beaglemom

    Does anyone know what it is about poultry that causes companies (bravo, primal) to use HPP? Why use it on poultry but not beef, venison, etc?

  • Alexandra

    Double UGHH!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    UGHH…

  • InkedMarie

    I got an email today that Bravo will be using HPP on their poultry products. When I get on my computer, I’ll copy & paste info

  • http://www.facebook.com/cathy.lovelace.5 Cathy Lovelace

    yes, the raw chicken on some dates was recalled

  • jolie

    Does anyone know if Bravo has been involved with recalls, mainly their raw foods? I swear I’ve seen this logo before and they sound like a big company. Nothing wrong with that – just curious how they can sustain the quality of raw foods. Thanks

  • Mom of Zena the Warrior Poodle

    I feed my Poodles a diet of half raw and half kibble. As far as the kibble is concerned I always use Petcurean products. I have used various formulas from both their NOW and GO! lines and they ALL contain Taurine.

  • losul

    Sodium and chloride are absolutely essential for all animal life, but excessive amounts is not so good. NRC- National research council sets advisory guidelines/standards for these. Iodine too.

    When I home prepare my dogs meals, I actually include about a teaspoon of salt and a teaspoon of powdered purple dulse (red algae) for every 5 pounds of meat.

    I think some dogfoods may have enough sodium and chloride in them without adding salt, as they occur naturally in many foods, and sometimes I would suspect they might have too much (and/or too many other minerals), especially if they make your dog overly thirsty.

  • JoAnn

    I thought dogs shouldnt eat salt… I see salt as an igredient in almost all of these brands and nothing mentioned about it…

  • Rawfoodmama

     HPP – High Pressure Processing – kills bad bacteria – also used in raw juices

  • Rawfoodmama

     HPP -High Pressure Processing – kills pathogens

  • Abbey Zap

    I recently lost a greyhound and for the last few years, due to a heart issue (leaky valve to put it in plain lingo) he took 100mg of taurine 2x a day, along with other preventive supplements… and he NEVER got bad, re: heart.  So I wouldn’t worry about taurine.  The vet cardiologist is who told me to do this!!!

  • husky owner

    Hi. Yes, I had the same problems with my huskies, right around the time that you wrote this letter. They had been eating it without any problem, then all of a sudden, they didn’t want anything to do with it. I have had the remainder of the box setting in my freezer since then. My dogs won’t even eat it for a treat, cut into small triangles (like a meat Frosty Paw, lol.) Very odd.

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  • GoldenRetrieverOwner

    I have been feeding my dog Bravo for 7 years and it has been going fine until just recently.  I usually buy a month’s supply (about 60 lbs in 2lb tubes, chicken and turkey) at a time.  I bought a new round a couple weeks ago, and my dog refuses to eat it.  He has never been finicky before.  I bought some turkey and chicken parts from the grocery store and he ate those no problem, so he is not off chicken or turkey.  There is something else that has changed in this batch of Bravo.  It does not smell bad to me, but he gives it a brief sniff and walks away.  Is anyone else seeing a problem?

  • monkey

    I second Darwin’s. I have little trust in how all the middlemen (distributers/retailers) handle frozen raw foods.

  • InkedMarie

    I do not feed it but I would not feed any food that had a bad smell to it. You should take a look at Darwin’s. It is a raw food, much like Bravo, only available from them (they ship). I live in NH, they’re in WA state, I get it two days from the day they ship and everything is frozen solid. When the customers get the Darwins, it is 4 weeks or less from the time they made it. Hard to get much fresher than that, unless you do prey model raw. Have you asked Bravo about this smell?

  • Ebbles9

    I hve been purchasing Bravo for the past four years, but the last few occasions the smell has truly turned me off.  We usually buy the 10# roll and cut it into patties for my bulldog.  I would hate to switch over to another brand but have the ingredients or the process changed?  They do not smell fresh regardless of the date on the roll.  The food is not cheap and I do not mind if I am getting the best for my dog, but somehow I feel the quality has changed.

  • InkedMarie

    I wish you’d ask the company about cooking it because I am pretty sure you are not to cook any raw for any reason! If you want to cook for your dog, you may as well do home cooking. Reading your posts on this thread doesn’t say to me it’s the perfect food. With your issues, you should look for something else. I don’t know how many dogs you’re feeding but you may want to look at Darwins (look at the review here). It is not available at any stores, it is shipped directly to you. They offer a trial package with free shipping; you may want to look at it.

  • jessi L.

    So i called Bravo about the soupy patties again and they sent me a few $5 off coupons. Not wanting to throw out the box of 10 patties i had left i cooked one up and inspected it manually for any bone pieces, there were absolutely none that i could feel (i inspected in manually meticulously), so i fed that to him, he loved it the way he used to like the patties the way they used to be. After the 3 chicken were finished i opened a turkey patty, lo and behold the turkey was actually a formed patty, lol. Still the darker color because of the newer packaging, my dog would not eat it. so again i lightly cooked it, inspected for any hard bits of bone. So i’ll keep getting bravo b/c it really is the absolutely perfect food and will just lightly cook it if he won’t eat it. I’ll just email them anyway and get their opinion on that. But anyway, that’s what happened in the end. : )

  • Jess

     True, but that has nothing to do with the taurine issue, do you feel better now.

  • Jess

     Flynn, that was just a copy and paste off a link I found. Actually I know nothing about taurine and I have never worried about it. At least I know about it now, but I still won’t worry about it, because I love hard boiled eggs and if I get one Tony gets one. Taurine…..

  • Kaliberknl

    I think the original wording was premium animal ingredients…not meat fwiw.  The heart disease first recognized in dobes is cardiomyopathy…a very sad disease.

  • Flynn

    May well be…interesting.

  • Flynn

    Jess, I was looking at Stella and Chewy raw and noticed that their foods contain taurine. I had heard there is a new recommendation for taurine for dogs as well as cats in pet foods, but did not know the details as you have described them.  I did not find any taurine in any of the kibble I looked at and the petstore said that dogs did not need it..Glad I asked, things change and it is good to know…

  • Flynn

    Thanks for the reply HDM…as I told Jess I found Taurine listed as an ingredient in Stella and Chewy raw..was surprised.  Had heard there was a new recommendation that dogs have it as well as cats..my petstore owner did not know of any company adding taurine…thanks again!’

  • Jess

    Kind of interesting if you notice that the new Acana grasslands says the 60% premium meat and poultry ingredient, instead of the old wording of just premium meat. I wonder if Taurine played a part.

  • Jess

     Because dogs make their own taurine from other amino acids, it’s been
    thought that they didn’t need such supplements. But in the last few
    years, researchers have discovered that a few dogs evidently can’t
    supply their own taurine needs; at least not on a diet of cereal grains
    and by-products. Certain lines of spaniels, retrievers, and particularly
    Newfoundlands developed the same form of heart disease that was killing
    cats. Now, this disease is actually pretty common among dogs of all
    breeds, but what was interesting about these particular dogs was that
    supplementing taurine could reverse their heart disease. As it
    turned out, many of these dogs were eating lamb and rice dog foods. Lamb
    meat has a relatively low level of taurine compared to chicken, the
    most common pet food protein. (Beef, venison, and rabbit are also much
    lower in taurine than poultry.) Consequently, a few pet food makers have
    started to supplement taurine in some (but not all) their dry dog
    foods.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Flynn,

    Taurine is a non-essential amino acid for dogs (they can manufacture it themselves) and an essential amino acid for cats (they need to consume it in their diet). However, while dogs are able to manufacture it themselves through other amino acids, if they’re eating a diet that is not species appropriate (high in grains, by-products, etc.) it is possible for them to develop a taurine deficiency. For these reasons, most highly processed commercial foods will supplement with taurine. If dogs and cats are fed a well rounded raw diet, however, supplementation generally is not necessary. Most fresh raw meats are a good source of taurine, with heart and brains being the best sources.

  • Flynn

    I notice some of the raw dog foods contain Taurine, and most do not…how important is Taurine?

  • Shawna

    My crew of 8 (and foster dogs that have come through) like both equally well..  :)   I think they are close enough nutrient wise that either would be a good choice :) ..

  • jessi L.

    Hi Shawna, thank you so much. : ). Yeah, i’m fine with HPP as long as it doesn’t give a rubbery taste, so i can definitely pick up a primal poultry. What do you think of the Quail and the Pheasant in general? their fat contents seem…normal. Are either more popular in flavor than the other? Any reason why one would be better than the other for me to pick up? Big thanks.

  • Shawna

    The link Addie posted describes HPP well..

    Answer’s raw pet food has an interesting article on HPP.  It can be found under the “What Makes Ours Better” heading on the following page  http://www.answerspetfood.com/nutrition.html

    Aunt Jeni’s also has a page on HPP  http://www.auntjeni.com/pdf%20files/Is%20Your%20Pet%20Food%20Safe.pdf

    Regarding your picky eater :)   The Primal venison and rabbit are really good but in my area are pretty pricey..  I just ordered some Darwins..  But they too are a bit limited on variety..

    Other options —- using the Bravo meat only line with a premix.  Buffalo, venison and salmon added to either Sojo’s, Honest Kitchen Preference, or Steve’s Premix (which has less ingredients that a picky eater might appreciate but does use some synthetics).

    I use Bravo Balance turkey, Bravo meat only (all three flavors) with one of the premixes, Primal venison and rabbit, Darwin’s duck and bison (will be soon at least) as well as turkey and beef from Trader Joes with a premix.  And then, I get deer and beef heart, from friends, with the premixes.  Heart can be fed like a muscle meat.  I also incorporate eggs and sardines into the diet..

    Good luck!!!!!

  • Addie

    http://ohioline.osu.edu/fse-fact/0001.html explains what HPP is. Primal is a good raw food with a decent variety of proteins to choose from. If you’re weary about HPP, then avoid their poultry products. 

  • J.J.

    Shawna,
    What’s HPP?  I assume it’s some kind of gas or chemical used in processing.  I am transitioning my dogs from Acana to Bravo Balance.  My raw meat hater is loving it and licking the bowl clean.  Finally, a raw food she will eat.  I’m so happy. 

    But, I’m still researching a few other brands to rotate in since they only have the three flavors in the balance line and she has a chicken intolerance.  I prefer to give them some variety because the girl with the chicken intolerance is picky and gets bored easily.  I love the limited ingredients and human grade quality of Bravo Balance. 

    Anybody recommend another brand with similar characteristics?

  • Shawna

    Only the poultry products in the Primal foods are subjected to HPP…  And, per the local Primal rep, they are subjected to the least amount of pressure for the least amount of time of those brands that use HPP — Monkey found another that was similar but I’m brain farting right now??

    I do find the HPP treated Nature’s Variety foods to be “rubbery” but the HPP treated Primal poultry products don’t seem any different to me.  I don’t use them often but have used once in a while.

    I also think the Primal beef, chicken and lamb are too high in fat so wouldn’t use those unless also feeding some of the lower in fat varieties (like rabbit and venison).  The duck is a bit high too but not quite as bad.

    Hopefully you just got a “off” batch of Bravo patties..  Do keep us informed though!!!!

  • jess L.

    thanks so much.

    i’m kinda bummed about the patties. They were my perfect raw. I live next to a holistic pet food store, hopefully they have something i don’t have to fuss with. They have quite a few brands.
     
    i read some of the comments on Primal stuff, people are mentioning the HPP and someone says the HPP makes it rubbery?
     
    So bummed. i went through 3 different kinds of raw before finding the amazing bravo balance patties, and if i have to go through another 3 raw bags/packages of food and don’t find anything… dog is gonna eat dry food for the rest of his life. lol. I can’t be fussing with water in, water out, thaw, refreeze, re-this, re-that.

    Dear Bravo, I HATE YOU. lol. I’ll check out the primal.

  • Addie

    I only feed one dog, so I don’t go through chubs as quick as Shawna lol. I just thaw out the whole thing, slice it up into individual patties, and put it in baggies, or tupperware to store in the freezer. I’ll put one patty in the fridge before bed, so he can have it for breakfast, then throw another one in the fridge in the morning, so he’ll have one for dinner. 

  • Shawna

    Because I am feeding so many, I let the whole thing thaw in the fridge (and sometimes on the counter top — shhhhh don’t tell) and then serve it til gone.  I buy the 2 pound chubs which last about 2 and 1/2 to 3 days.  I have 5 on raw and 3 on raw with kibble but all range from 5 to 14 pounds.

    Bravo website says this about portioning the food.

    “thaw the meat in the refrigerator and once it is soft enough to handle (there should still be ice crystals in the center of the meat), immediately portion it out and re-freeze.”  http://www.bravorawdiet.com/tips.html

  • InkedMarie

    I’m still researching pre-made raw; for now, my husband has asked that I not do “real” raw. Anyway, looking at this one. How do you guys use the chubs? They come frozen, I assume. Do you slice it while it’s frozen or do you let it thaw, then slice? 

  • Shawna

    Hi Jess L.

    I don’t use the patties but do use the bravo chubs..  Sometimes so have a bit more liquid and are a bit mushy at first.  I usually drain the excess liquid off (when this happens) and stick the food in the fridge.  It firms up after being in the fridge.  When I feed, I add the liquid back in.

    You might also try adding a small amount of low moisture hamburger in (at 20% or less) which when combined with the patty might give it some texture?

    If you continue having issues with the patties — check out the chubs.  Might work better for you?

    I also use Primal — GOOD food but heads up..  In my area it is significantly higher priced then Bravo.

    Please do let us know if you continue having issues!!

  • Toxed2loss

    Next time ask them if they use any gasses in the processing or packaging process. Butchers inject Carbon monoxide into the package, to make the meat appear more red.

    Have you checked out articles on “pink slime.”http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/pinkslime-ammonia-ground-beef.htm

    Mercola has an artical on it as well. I immediately thought of it when you said, “slop.”

  • jess L.

    oh great. what the heck do i do with this slop? grrrr. my dog will not touch it, and he usually loves his bravo. :( .

    Thanks for the Primal advice, just checked their website, ingredients look good. I really loved that Bravo has such limited ingredients, it was so CLEAN!, (NV sorta gave my dog the itchies or something), gosh.  K, i’ll look through the Primal flavors, Quail looks interesting, whatever a quail is. lol. : ).

  • hounddogmom12

    Jess L,

    NO! DO NOT COOK THE PATTIES!

    Bravo contains ground bone.The bone is fine when raw, but if you cook it it will become brittle and can cause internal damage. Never ever feed cooked bone, it would be like shards of glass. If the Bravo is an issue try looking into Primal, I usually make my own raw but use Primal occasionally and have never had any issues with texture.

  • jess L.

    Okay, i called and got a hold of someone, she said the newer packaging keeps them from losing color so maybe that’s why it was more red, that the intense color might be more organs and that usually the form is not so much slop, but rather formed, but that it should be fine. Blech. Fine, i’ll just cook these “patties” to give them texture, my dog will not eat the slop, and i’ll just hope that the next box i buy is formed patties instead of slop. if the next one turns out like that i’ll look for another raw. blargle.

  • jess L.

    Boooo. I called the Bravo company yesterday during their business hours but had to leave a msg with their service. I called again today, now it’s just saying it’s after business hours. I also emailed them and it bounced back. :P . Hopefully they get back to me. *sigh*

  • jess L.

    Thanks. what color is the chicken you have seen from bravo? Are you getting the chicken tan, or the cajun orange/red? and what is the texture of yours, the more formed, or the more slop?

  • Eloise

    Jess L.
    I heard that the new individual packaging of Bravo creates less oxygen in the meat leading it to turn a grey-ish color; it should turn the normal color once it thaws a bit, maybe not quite as bright as you describe.  Not sure why the texture is so different, I’ve used product from both packaging types and I haven’t found a difference.

  • jess L.

    Hey there, has there been a change in the Bravo Balance patties? or did i get a weird batch….

    i get the Bravo balance patties, usually they are soft but formed, round, clean edges and the color is somewhere btwn chicken tan and a little bit of greige once they thaw if in the fridge for a full day, and not red, (hello, it’s chicken!) maybe a tiny pink, but i can’t quite remember, and little bit of blood. Have bought at least 5 boxes of the 12 patties.just bought a box of the patties yesterday after not having bought them for a few months, and from the same place as usual. i noticed it had new individual packaging, almost bowl like instead of just a pull-apart wrapper, so at first when i saw the color difference though it was just a minor change, but once i thawed and opened it saw it was totally different color, red/orange, almost colored red/orange, like a dye was used, but i know they would never do that. it was like the color of cajun food, (?) and totally not formed like the usual patties, i had to scoop it out with a spoon, and it was almost like slop. But the type of packaging that was new seemed like it would be that way to accomidate for that texture. (i actually had to fry it up in a pan to give it any sort of texture other than soupy slop).Anyone usually buy the patties? which do your usually look like? and wth?

    I sent them an email, it bounced, so i left a msg for them, awaiting a call back.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    OK, Dawn. Now I understand. You were talking about Healthy Pet Products. That happens to be already on my To Do list. So, it will be done sooner than if it was fist noe=ow just getting added.

    Thanks for the reminder.

  • DAWN

    OH BOY THATS NEET YOU GUYS ARE DOING THAT! IM SURE IT WILL REALLY TIME CONSUMING! I DON’T ENVY YA’S AT ALL!
     WRITE HPP BECAUSE…THATS THE NAME? THATS WHAT IT SAYS ON ALL THE PACKAGING…ON THEIR WEBSITE ETC  :o / IM GOING TO LOOK RIGHT NOW..BRB…
    HEALTHY PET PRODUCTS RAW MEAT THATS WHAT HPP STANDS FOR…I DIDNT’ EVEN NOTICE IT SAID THAT HA! so there ya go….well by the sounds of it…you won’t be reviewing it anytime soon.
    i also just bought some brand new food from doggiefood.com called
    CARNA-4 HAND CRAFTED DOG FOOD OVEN BAKED WITH  FRESH CHICKEN SPROUTED SEEDS-WHOLE VEGGIES… ANY KIBBLE I EVER BUY IS NEVER FOR A FULL MEAL..THEIR RAW IS THAT I’LL USE AS TREATS ..OR TO HOLD THEM FOR  1/2 HR ETC TILL RAW GETS DEFROSTED… BUT THEY LIKE THIS..THEY WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT NEW DNA FOOD.
    OK HAPPY RE-REVIEWING  ….

  • Sharon

    Fish oil gelcaps are more expensive than plain fish oil, each cap contains a very small amount. The reason I buy the gelcaps is they prevent the fish oil from spoiling.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Hi Dawn,

    I’d love to answer your question. However, you mention “HPP”. I’m not sure I know what that means. A more complete name would be much appreciated.

    In any case, please be aware that Sandy and I are in the midst of updating hundreds of reviews. This is a critically important (and time-consuming) project that will take us many months to complete.

    So, this massive task will significantly slow down the rate at which we can produce new reviews.

    I’ve recently added a “Recently Updated” link on the left sidebar so you can monitor our progress.

    Hope this helps.

  • Dawn

    LolI was wondering why everyone’s icon was a German shep lol
    I didn’t read anything funny?
    They were all complaining who was using the right dog ! I read some and clicked at out. Just caught my eyei saying DO NOT LISTEN TO DOGFOODADVISER!

  • melissa

     Dawn-

    the “website” you are referring to is NOT a website. Its merely a thread on a german shepherd forum and quite funny to read.

  • DAWN

    IM ALSO USING MY PET CARNIOVARE (SP) IT IS JUST LIKE SOMEONE WENT OUT BACK KILLED THE LAMB AND GRINDED IT AND PUT IN A CONTAINER FOR YOU! THEY GIRLS ARE GAGA FOR IT! YOU SEE THE TENDONS SOME BONES OH JUST EVERYTHING YOUR SUPPOSE TO SEE WITH REAL RAW FOOD. THEY ALSO HAVE MANY DIFF KIND OF RAW BONES. MOST PLACES ARE ALWAYS JUST NECKS AND MARROW…THEY SELL THESE RAW LAMB TROTTERS OMG! MY SABRINA ACTS LIKE A KID IN A CANDY STORE WHEN SHE SEES ME PULLING OUT OUT OF THE FREEZER! I’VE NEVER SEEN THESE SOLD LIKE  THESE EVER (ONLINE I MEAN MAYBE IF U GO INTO A BUTCHER ETC…)    IM JUST WAITING TO SEE..(NOT THAT I WOULD EVER STOPP USING HPP AND MY PET CARN) BUT CURIOUS WITH ALL THE INFO YOU HAVE ON FOODS WOULD JUST LOVE TO SEE HOW MANY STARS EACH WOULD GET..ALTHOUGH YOUR NOT GOING TO RATE TROTTERS LOL. IM SURPRISED USALLY ASAP YOU ANSWER POSTS PEOPLE LEAVE ABOUT..WHEN OR WILL YOU BE REVIEWING. BUT I LEFT MY POST ABOUT HPP AWHILE AGO AND NO RESPONSE?
    OH DO YOU KNOW THERES A WHOLE WEBSITE ABOUT..THIS SITE? SAYING “WHY YOU SHOULDN’T LISTEN TO DFA?” BY SABLE123? I COULDN’T BELIEVE IT!
    I CAN NOT TELL YOU THE ZILLIONS OF TIMES A REFER YOU! I REFER TO YOUR SITE AT EVERY SITE WHERE YOU CAN POST ABOUT DOG FOOD AND JUST EVERY WHERE… IF I GOT PAID FOR EVERY REFERRAL I GAVE I’D BE RICH BY NOW  :o )
    TAKE CARE MIKE!

  • Dawn

    HEY MIKE HOPE YOUR WELL. :0)
    I know u r asked tons of times a day
    “MIKE WILL U REVIEW SO AND SO’
    LOL NOW MY TURN
    THE GIRLS HAVE BEEN HPP RAW. IT’S AWESOME THEIR WEBSITE VERY. GOOD HAS GREAT TIPS THEY SELL FREEZE DRIED OF THE FROZEN.
    I LOVE HOW YOU CAN GET IT TO
    ONE WAY IS LIKE MOST… In rolls (5lbs) BUT MY FAV AND WISH OTHER PLACES THIS.. IITS IN STIX! THAWS SUPER FAST SO EASY TO SERVE AND STORE!
    IM WONDERING ON YOUR LIST OF TO DO S?
    IT’S NOT EXPENSIVE EITHER IM FORTUNATE I HAPPEN TO HAVE A DEALER ABOUT 45 mins AWAY. USUALLY THE SHIPPING IS WHAT KILLS YA!
    ALSO ONE OTHER FROZEN FOOD (not raw) I WANT IT ON MY ROTATION BUT IN CALIF HE’S TRYING TO FIND THE CHEAPEST WAY TO GET IT TO ME. I LIKE IT MUCH BETTER THEN MY PERFECT PET THAT HAS SO MUCH POTATO AND BROWN RICE IN THE BLOCKS YOU CAN NOT SEE ANY MEAT
    OH I DIDN’T TELL YOU THE NAME LOL IT’S CALLED
    FRESHFETCH IT’S REALLY AWESOME HAVE YOU HEARD OF ITi!?
    IT’S IN CALIF
    SO NOW I ASKED FOR. TWO REFERRALS I GAVE EEEKKK LOL
    THANKS FOR HANGIN IN THERE THRU THIS BOOK I JUST WROTE. :0)
    TAKE CARE!

  • Msheffield

     Instead of paying the high price of the fish oil just go to Wal-Mart and buy the fish oil pills and just give it to him.  I’ve never had a dog turn down the pill.

  • Pemlover

    My dog loves Bravo Balance – I rotate the varieties at each feeding. Never had a problem with him refusing to eat it – he scarfs it right down. I supplement with a raw beef marrow bone a couple of times a week. I keep Honest Kitchen on hand if I run short before the next order is delivered. No problems there, either. He’s a very happy boy in wonderful condition!

  • monkey

    Amvolgi – Yeah, no dogs like the taste of Bravo. People just buy it for their dogs to look at.

  • Amvolgi

    My dog refuses to eat Bravo. I don’t know what it is about the smell but he just turns his nose to it. Don’t waste your money like i did and try a better raw dog food brand. JJ Fuds seemed to work nice until i switched to this crap

  • Gordon

    I no longer supplement fish oil to my dogs raw meals any more. They get a whole raw fresh ocean fish once a week. Mmmm, it’s slimy mackerel for next week. I now only supplement cod liver fish oil to non fish meals, for about 3 to 4 times a week.

  • Shane

    Thanks guys. Luckily there’s a pet supply shop only two minutes away from me that carry the bravo balance line. I also bought the fish oil and my dog happens to like it a lot.

  • Shawna

    “excellent quote quality” It’s gonna be one of THOSE weeks…. UGHHHH

    —excellent coat quality….. ;)

  • Shawna

    Shane ~~ I agree with the others that the shedding is likely a detox and will pass. Honest Kitchen and Sojo’s both use top notch foods in their products but both (esp Sojo’s) is quite deficient in protein. Protein as well as Linolenic Acid, an omega 6 fatty acid, are necessary for excellent quote quality.

    Make sure however that you are feeding Bravo “Balance” and not one of the other foods (like the buffalo, elk, duck, venison, lamb, salmon etc). None of those just listed are balanced — several are just meat only. NOT a good option. It must be the balanced line or you will end up with more issues then you resolve — down the line that is.

    The chubs are not supposed to be thawed and then re-frozen.. BUT, you can thaw the food out enough to easily cut it with a sharp or serated edged knife and avoid the squirtying hassels.. As long as their are still “ice crystals” it is safe to re-freeze — this comes right off Bravo’s website.. :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Shane, the shedding stage will pass. I noticed the same thing when I’d get my son’s dog. The new food will initiate a “cleanse”. Just like Gordon said, on a lower quality food they will shed a lot more, all the time, as there body is constantly trying to get rid of inferior quality components. You’ll see more shedding and have more dandruff, oil and ear drainage, etc. in some dogs, when they get higher quality food, the added nutrients and protein “power” a more energetic ‘cleanse.’ With my son’s dog, a GSDxhusky, it lasted about 2 weeks, then he looked gorgeous!! :-)

  • Gordon

    Shane – No need to chop raw meats into pieces, if you just purchase RMB’s as they are, and carcasses, and offal etc.

    Re the fur shedding. I know that my dogs shed less fur than ever when on a quality and varying raw meaty diet as Mother Nature intended. Prior to my dogs being on such a diet, they were on a diet of processed pet foods and they were shedding more fur and had lack luster coats. With an exception……Such as some processed foods that are at least of higher quality such as Artermis and Eathborn range of kibbles that did show some great results for my dogs. But not like an appropriate raw diet, which does them the greatest all round health and appearance benefits.

    So my point is that feeding an appropriate raw diet includes using fresh and not stale meats, nor contaminated same with hormones and chemicals like many sources unfortunately can bear on such. These are even worse for feeding your dog, than what carrion (stale dead animal parts lying around or stale left overs) in the wild, is.

    Vigilance and care should be taken when choosing and buying fresh meaty and drug free sources. Then such should be stored frozen, then fridge thawed over 12 hours or so. If feeding Bravo, or similar BARF type meals, then expiry dates should be checked and the freshest possible, purchased. Freezer storage is paramount when not being fed and care should be taken that such commercial BARF are not allowed to thaw after purchase when arriving home before placing same in your freezer.

    The above are just some points in respect of taking care in how quality of raw is also crucial to be the case.

  • Shane

    Hello to anyone reading this. I just recently stumbled upon this website and I am lovin it. I’ve been feeding my dog the Honest kitchens food and Sojos for over a year and a half now. I just recently (as in yesterday) switched his food to a more raw raw diet. My dog is the kind of dog that will eat something as if he hasn’t eaten for over a month, when really he ate something just a few seconds ago. Lol So you could just imagine how he reacted when I was preparing his meal.

    I wondering though, has anyone’s dog/s had a problem with shedding a lot even while they were eating raw, dehydrated foods like the honest kitchen and sojos? Cause my dog is shedding like crazy. He’s never shed as much as he does now and I am getting concerned. Will the higher protein content and smaller carb content help him not shed as much.

    On another note, I cut the chubs into pieces and put them into sandwich bags (biodegradable ones) and put them back into the freezer. Now for whatever reason, I felt like cutting the last chub in the sink and boy did I make the right choice. The freaking thing squirted all over my face, neck arms and in the sink. Okay so I’m not lucky that I got blood squirted all over me and in the sink, but imagine it had been the kitchen counter, the dishes, your dog and whatever clean is near you. It would have been a bloody bloody mess that’s for sure.

  • Shawna

    A wonderful endorsement by a pet owner for the use of enzymes in the treatment of a “raw” fed ill dog (peripheral neuropathy). http://healthypets.mercola.com/groups/healthypets/forum/t/126799.aspx

  • Gordon

    Thanks for the generous and kind words, Mike. It is greatly appreciated.

    Just trialing this new ‘More Recent Comments’ feature and it’s great that we can now further back track our and others comments. A top new feature and one that makes it even a better reason to remain under blog format than that of a forum. Good work!

    And thanks Toxed and aimee. My new job is going well so far.

    aimee – Just between you and I, my writing style is actually more blunt than Dr. Lonsdale’s lol. At least his books are less blunt, but still factual. However, his articles are a bit more liberally blunt and heart felt than his books. And obviously less lay than my comments, being that he is one expert and I’m just a lay writer re these subjects.

  • aimee

    Gordon,
    Your writing style suits me just fine!

    Hope you are enjoying your new job!

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Gordon, congratulations on the new job! :-)

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Gordon — While I’m so happy you’ve found a better job, I must say I’m disappointed that we won’t be hearing from you as much as we’ve become accustomed. You’ve gradually morphed into one of our most knowledgeable authorities (our “go to” guy) on raw feeding.

    So, hopefully, you can still find some time to add your usual wit (which I’ve personally grown to love) and you wisdom.

    I wish there was some way for you (and all of us) to be able to follow these threads in a more effective manner. Still looking for a blog solution (a WordPress plugin?) to solve these issues rather than installing a forum.

    Good luck on your new career, Gordon. You’ve always got one as a raw feeding expert waiting for you here. :)

  • Gordon

    LOL aiimee – What da hell must you think of my writing style then, if you think that of Lonsdale’s books? He writes quite well, and calls a spade a spade. At least that’s my impression and is what I prefer. The plain facts that is.

    Thanks Toxed. I’m on and off ATM, because I’ve changed jobs, and no longer work over nights. And I’ve been really tired and lacking in sleep while my body clock gets readjusted. And so, I probably won’t be on as much. Especially in the times I posted before.

    Also, should I not respond if addressed, would be only due to the fact that because I won’t be posting at the times you guys do, anymore, I’ll miss the posts that disappear off the bottom from the recent comments list on the right. I only caught up on the latest here, as this thread, I recall, was the last that I commented on.

  • Shawna

    I checked — Kal does test for “heavy metals”.

  • Shawna

    Many brands (of human products) like Kal are tested to be lead free (possibly other contaminants are tested for as well). The EWG does warn about fluoride in bone meal but that should hold true with any animal fed fluoridated water I would assume.

  • aimee

    Gordon : ),

    I said I tried reading his book but couldn’t because I found his writing style offensive…. I listed to a podcast but it wasn’t by Lonsdale himself.

    I’ve noted that their is a shift away from using bone meal as a Ca source in home prepared diets due to accumulated toxins associated with it. But I’d imagine this varies with the source animal???

  • Shawna

    The type of calcium is actually important.. I know the type best utilized by humans but not dogs.. However, stealing from Gordon, I’m sure Mother Nature can point us in the right direction — bone / bone meal..

    I attended a seminar called Back to School for Doctors (as a guest of my father).. I learned at the seminar that 1% of the calcium in the body is calcium bicarbonate and that this 1% of calcium is VERY important to the immune system. Calcium lactate and calcium citrate are the best sources of calcium for conversion to calcium bicarbonate (aka ionizable calcium). When there is not enough ionizable calcium in the blood the body will heat muscle and the heated muscle will leach the needed calcium from the bone — to fight the infection. This is why bringing down a fever (with aspirin etc) causes more harm then good..

    The below 2 page article does a fabulous job of explaining the process in an easy to understand format.. Here’s a blurb from the article

    “Several studies, such as those reported by the Department of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School as well as the Critical Care Units at Detroit’s Receiving Hospital and the Helsinki University Hospital, indicate that a consistent key factor in critically ill patients (including children) and their ability to survive an infection in a hospital setting was the level of the ionized calcium in their blood.

    It all makes sense when one understands that ionized calcium is what stimulates the process by which microbes in the body are engulfed and destroyed (phagocytosis). Howard Petty, PhD from the University of Michigan Health System’s Kellogg Eye Center has provided high speed images of how calcium
    acts in an attack on foreign matter in the body.” http://www.thejoyofhealth.com/files/20080222_Enhancing_Your_Calcium_Knowledge.pdf

    Teething children can get fevers for this same reason – not enough proper calcium in the blood. The old timer doctors, like dentist Dr. Royal Lee, used to give babies “calcium lactate and barley water” and the fever would go away.. http://www.wellness-star.com/Nutrition/Drugs-Starvation.shtml

    There’s a lot less info, from what I’ve found, on dogs but I have to assume it is similar. AND, bone or bone meal would supply the most utilizable source of calcium for dogs…??

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Oh, Gordon, glad to see you’re back! ;-)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    What little I know, and it ain’t much, about calcium is hat it is balanced by magnesium and potassium, and both must be present for beneficial metabolizing in humans. Sorry if that’s a repeat, I didn’t go reread the previous posts. Got an exposure this a.m., so just hanging on. :-}

  • Gordon

    aimee – Oh yeah…. but before you said that you couldn’t bear listening to the Lonsdale tape and stopped before it finished. So which is it, lol?

  • Gordon

    Jessie – Rhodesian Ridgebacks are still descendants of the wolf as is the Hottentot dog. It doesn’t matter what breed of dog one has. Big, weird, or small, they’re all descendants of the wolf. They all do best on the diet of the wolf. That includes Rhodesian Ridgebacks.

  • Gordon

    “Could this explain why when we feed processed foods the Ca level in the food needs to be controlled? I don’t know!”

    Don’t know either aimee. Does it? I just let Mother Nature instead of Iams, Purina, P&G, Hills SD, Mars etc, control the Ca and other mineral levels. However, granted that the latter should have such minerals be in appropriate levels and in proportional ratios with other minerals to mimic that of Nature or equivalent absorption rate. But, do they? This is something I guess you would know if those manufacturers really do?

  • Shawna

    “Perhaps in the natural raw bone presentation the breaking down of the collegen matrix and absorbtion of minerals does not render Ca as available as does when it is presented in a processed form ???.”

    aimee — I once watched a seminar given by David Wolfe (for humans). He feels many diseases in humans are caused by excess calcium from (if I remember right) less utilizable sources – diseases like cataracts are actually calcium deposits. Anywho, the calcium in dog food I believe is most likely calcium carbonate. In humans (not sure about dogs) calcium carbonate is very digestible but not highly usable. It requires more conversions then calcium citrate or lactate (which are less digestible but better utilized). Wondering if there may be some correlation in dogs?

  • aimee

    Jessie,

    The pups are so cute… love the head wrinkles!

  • aimee

    Hi Gordon,

    You bring up a good point. I have to wonder if the difference lies in the way Ca is presented to the body which then influences its absorption or is it solely a matter of growth rate.

    Smalll breeds can intake haigher Ca levels without an orthopedic consequence so selected growth rates must play some role.

    Puppies can’t down regulate Ca absorption as adults do which makes me postulate that the system is set up to get every bit of available Ca as possible.

    Perhaps in the natural raw bone presentation the breaking down of the collegen matrix and absorbtion of minerals does not render Ca as available as does when it is presented in a processed form ???.

    Could this explain why when we feed processed foods the Ca level in the food needs to be controlled? I don’t know!

    P. S. I listened to the entire Lonsdale associate podcast. I had to drive to a library to listen to it as my computer/connection was too slow.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Hey Shawna,
    Reading Steve Brown’s “Unlockng the Ancestral Diet…” :-) boy can it be complicated! He does make it easier though with his ABC plan. I am reading corresponding Internet research as I go. Having my own ‘predjudices’… ;-) Came acrossed this amazing nugget from University of Maryland Medical, “vitamin E, from evening primrose (borage, black current) can cause seizures.” !!! Made me wonder how many people with dogs having seizures were supplementing their dogs with plant based vitamin E?! Food for thought!

  • Shawna

    Hey Jessie,

    A raw diet can be the healthiest possible diet (for any dog) ever. However as The Great Dane Lady points out it can be the worst too (not just raw but any home made diet, including cooked, that is not balanced). FAR too often people get all gung ho about going raw but don’t research the actual needs of a dog. And, consequently, feed a diet that is deficient in vitamins and minerals. This can cause a whole host of issues — magnesium deficiency can cause seizures, taurine or vitamin e deficiency can cause heart problems, iodine deficiency can cause hypo and hyperthyroid.. Etc etc etc.

    The key to a healthful raw diet is to make sure you are not omitting any nutrients that are vital to health — which they all are. Several different vets and nutritionists recommened different diets. One is not right while another is wrong — rather they just look at things a bit differently. Gordon likes Dr. Lonsdale. When following the diet as instructed it can be very healthful. However, some people may try to cut corners and get in big trouble. I like Dr. Becker who has a recipe book that gives step by step instructions. But even with those instructions some still cut corners – and, you guessed it, get in big trouble.

    The key with garlic is to feed small amounts off and on. I do 4 days on 3 days off during the summer and then as needed in the winter months. The body is constantly making new red blood cells so enough garlic would need to be fed for enough days to damage existing cells to the point that the body couldn’t make enough new cells to replace the damaged cells. That being said — I would never give garlic to a dog that was already anemic for any reason (intestinal worms, fleas etc).

  • Jessie

    Hey Aimee! Not sure what was going on with the photographer’s website, but it has been fixed! Sorry about that!

    Gordon, I hear what you are saying in regards to Mother Nature verifying Ca levels, however, the Rhodesian Ridgeback is not an indiginouous dog! Yes, ancestry would stem back to the Hottentot dog, which was a wild dog, however, the Rhodesian Ridgeback was bred by humans and most likely grows at a different rate than a wild animal. I completely understand the concept of feeding raw and I am all about doing what’s best for my dogs! I almost feel like there is too much information available regarding dog food and it becomes a little overwhelming at times, and hard to ascertain truth from fiction! And maybe fiction isn’t the right word to use here, but whose information is the most accurate? I have started to incorporate raw foods into my puppies diet because I believe that it’s good for them, and so far, they already have less gas after cutting out the canned food! That’s a positive result from my perspective! :) However, I was reading some studies on “The Great Dane Lady” website last night regarding dogs fed raw vs. homemade cooked vs. commercial kibble with additional vitamins, and the dogs fed all raw were in the worst health at the end!?? I’m reading all of your discussions regarding garlic and think there is a good and bad perspective from all angles! How are we as consumers supposed to digest all of this and make a decision on what is best for our animals? It seems like no matter what we decide, there is a negative risk involved!

    I feel comfortable with the Ca levels in the Wellness Large Breed Puppy food, and I feel comfortable with what’s in it. Why am I now thinking that Wysong may be a better choice? Lol. I am driving my husband insane with all of this! Maybe I like this forum because it makes me feel comfortable knowing that I am not the only nut researching dog food all of the time! What on earth has come over me? Lol. Thanks for reading. :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Gordon,

    I was rereading these posts, I have to to get the info to stick, and noticed you said something about feeding garlic, but not for fleas… I just wanted to say that while I don’t see it as a huge flea repellent either, it’s an amazing intestinal parasite remedy. I’ve got twenty head of sheep and after the rounds of neighborhood pesticide applications that damaged me, their immune systems were pretty beleaguered. Depressed immune system results in parasite infestations… Well, the vet said “must use a paracitide!” So, I did. (still following orders back then) killed several. Since I know Shawna advocates garlic for worms I determined to try it. Did some rummaging around on the Internet for amounts appropriate for sheep. LOL, one of my fav shepardesses uses it! I’ve switched and it’s amazing! If I look out and see a sheep indicating its got worms (or gut issues) I feed em garlic. With in one hour they’re right as rain. They love the stuff! Haven’t lost any yet, even with the neighborhood spraying. Just wanted to testify to its effectiveness. :-)

  • Gordon

    Wow, won’t be making many comments currently, as am too busy lately, but have just quickly skimmed the latest since my last post here, and…

    Just making this one comment and probably be back on the weekend. Anyway, all I can say is, I wonder if Mother Nature told the wolf to look up Purina, Iams, Science Diets’ kibbles’ calcium levels etc to make sure its pups were receiving puppy maintenance food? Or did she just demand and rule that a pup will eat what its parents eat…..such as a little of what I had listed that I feed, above. Less fur and skin and a few other exceptions. Hmmm, maybe Mother Nature and one of her advocates such as the one who bored the hell out of aimee when she was on her way to a conference and couldn’t listen to the rest of Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s recording or whatever it was that aimee apparently listened to?….but couldn’t finish listening to it. Hmmmm, I wonder???

    I’ve got your measure aimee. ;)

  • aimee

    Jessie,

    I tried to see your pups but it wouldn’t load. : ( I started looking at foods years ago when showed Labs in conformation and obedience.

    A friend bred and showed English Mastiffs which is why I was at the Mastiff Specialty asking breeders what they raised their pups on.

    In regards to Ca, the diet you are on is approx 3 to 4 grams Ca/1000 kcals using the Ca min and max they provided. I can’t comment on the Bravo because there is no Ca on their website. You’ll have to ask the company. I personally don’t feed raw.

    You might enjoy http://www.dogstardaily.com which is a great site for information on training pups. Raising two together will surely be challanging.

    Good Luck!

  • Jessie

    Hi Aimee! Thank you so much for getting back to me! Just out of curiosity, are you a Vetrinarian? You seem to have so much knowledge regarding dog food, and dogs in general!
    I have read your threads regarding large breed pups under the Blue food, however, I don’t think that I could go back to feeding them Eukanuba after I read the ingredient list. To be honest, both of my dogs were a little itchy when they were eating that food, but that seems to have stopped after discontinuing. I understand the calcium levels are lower, however, Wellness Large Breed Puppy food claims to have calcium levels between 1% and 1.4%, which is actually one of the lowest levels I have seen on good kibble for Large Breed Puppies. Have you heard of the “Great Dane Lady”? She helped develop the Precise Holistic line of food, and the calcium levels in the large brred puppy are at 1.2%, again, one of the lowest that I have seen. She also has some good articles regarding the “Carpel Flexural Deformity” along with pictures. My puppies look nothing like the pictures regarding this deformity! They are also showing no signs of knuckle weakness and run around like crazy! If you get a chance, you can look at their pictures on http://www.pinkparrotphoto.com! Click on the cute picture of the beagle puppies that says Blog, and my puppies will be the first ones on the page, Copper and Tandy. These were taken a couple of weeks ago. Please keep in mind they are HD, taken on an slight incline, and I think if there are any signs of knuckling over, I personally think it’s just the way they are standing. I guess u can make your own judgement if you do end up taking a look!
    I also went to the body scoring chart on Purina’s site, and my puppies are on the leaner side of 4, if there is such a thing! I decided to increase their food to 4 1/4 cups for the 40 pound puppy and 3 1/4 cups a day for the 30 pound puppy. They are so active and must be burning lots of k/cals because I think they are skinny!
    So, back to the calcium, I ended up buying a 5lb chub of Bravo Balance raw last night and plan to incorporate a small amount of it to be used as more of a topper to start. Do you think using it in that way will throw off the calcium balance enough to make a difference? I guess I won’t give them much more than that until they are around 18 months of age and done growing! I will also give them an occasional RMB (thanks Sandy!), but most likely not until next Spring when they can eat it outside! Not sure I like the idea of a bloody bone on my cream carpet! :)
    Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback as I just want to do the best that I can for my pups! This site is great and I’m learning a lot! :)

  • Shawna

    Here’s one of the ones I found but I’m able to locate the other… grrr

    “Abstract
    12 proteolytic fractions were obtained with disc–electrophoresis from the gastric mucosa in healthy dogs. 5 proteases (I group) were only found in fundus and gastric body whereas 7 those (II group) were found in antrum as well. Study of the fractions proteolytic activity revealed two of them to be active in pH 1.0-5.0; two in pH 4.0-5.0; one in pH 1.0-2.0; the area of other proteases activity involved 3-4 units of pH. The considerable amount of proteases and the large area of their activity seem to secure the protein hydrolysis in the stomach in different pH values of eaten food.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6347728

  • aimee

    Shawna,
    Dogs do have an anatomic region called the fundus and it does fill first but it is functionally different than other species.

  • Shawna

    I did find something regarding the fundus in dogs.. I posted here before but didn’t add it to favorites. Will see if I can find it.

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    The idea that the food is in the fundus and held at a higher pH is true in other species but I haven’t found this to be true in the dog.

    The dog is unique in that massive amounts of HCL are released and the pH quickly falls as opposed to a delay in other species.

    I too have heard of plant based being more acid resistant. Yet when there is a medical need for enzymes replacment in dogs plant enzymes are never recommended because they are found not to be an effective replacement therapy. So I wonder then of what benefit are they in a normal animal? Is it that they are intrinsically not effective or is it that the concentration of plant based supplements is so low that the volume needed is impractical?

  • aimee

    Jesse,

    Congratulations on your twins!

    I’ve heard of and seen carpal flexual deformity. As I recall it is thought to be an asynchonous growth between bone and ligament and seen in rapid growth.

    I’ve posted a few thoughts on feeding a large breed pup on the blue buffalo wilerness thread. So you may want to pop over there.

    You want a slow steady growth rate. Your pups should look a bit on the thin side. Body score 4/9 see http://www.purina.com for body scoring.

    The key is Calcium. On an energy basis no more than 3.5 grams/1000kcals. Call the company and ask what the level is in the food. This works out to about 1% of the diet for a dry food.

    Adult food is not appropriate for puppy growth.

    Protein levels do not cause improper growth.

    If you decide to use Bravo I’d use the balance formula but not before establishing the level of Calcium in the food as I’d think it likely may be higher than what is safe for large breed growth. I’d be more likey to use a canned topper balanced for large breed growth.

    Eukaneuba large breed has a Ca of .88% and when talking to various breeders of English Mastiffs it was the food they all recommended for growing those giants.

    I came across this posted by a board certified veterinary nutritionist regarding large breed growth. You may find it useful. http://www.petdiets.com/faqs/display_faq.asp?ID=663

  • Shawna

    Got it aimee!

    From my understanding the food first enters the fundus which is not as acidic as the body of the stomach. It’s in the fundus that the enzymes in the food, if present, start working to break it down. Then moves on to the body where the majority of HA is released activating the pepsin – considerably more acidic then the fundus.

    I also read that plant based enzymes (possibly the reason for the inclusion of bromelain and papain?) are heartier then animal based enzymes.

  • sandy

    Jessie,

    Maybe your pups would enjoy a raw meaty bone couple times a week since you will be just using raw food as a supplement.

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    I’ve read that enzymes being proteins themselves can be inactivated by gastric acid and subject to digestion.

  • Jessie

    Not to interrupt your discussion, but I am a newbie here! I have been reading a lot from this website lately because it has so much valuable information that I would not have known otherwise! So, thank you for the knowledge base from all of you dog food experts!
    I have two Rhodesian Ridgeback puppies, 16 and 14 weeks in age that currently weigh 40 and 30 pounds, growing rapidly! The breeder gave me a Eukanuba kit when I purchased our first puppy, and I just assumed that it was good food! Thank god I started doing some of my own research and have now switched them to Wellness Large Breed Puppy mixed with Wellness Grain Free 95% meat and a little water to make a gravy. They seem to be doing very well on this food, however, I would like to start incorporating Bravo Balance raw (maybe?) instead of the canned. I have a few questions though, and am hoping that some of you can help.
    The breeder that I received my second puppy from, different from the first, is suggesting that I switch to an Adult Maintenance formula immediately because after I sent her a link to some pictures that I had taken of my puppies, she claims that they are both developing something called “Carpel Flexural Deformity”, or “Knuckling Over”. I had never heard of this, so of course I was freaked out! My dogs will be our running companions in a couple of years, so not only am I greatly concerned for their health, but I most certainly don’t want them getting bone deformities! She claims that this is due to the protein content of the food being too high and they should be eating an adult formula! From everything that I have read on this site, potential bone deformities are caused from over feeding a good food, and not too much protein. I am not over feeding these guys and measure every meal! The vet had never even heard of this deformity, but said I don’t have anything to worry about in his opinion. My dogs look great! (I would be more than happy to share the link with the pictures of my puppies if anyone is interested in taking a look). In any case, I am not planning to switch them to an adult formula, but would like to start incorporating the Bravo raw into their diet. I can’t afford to feed them 100% raw, but am planning on feeding them 10 pounds each per month. I have no idea how to begin incorporating this into their diet (I.e. how much should I give them to start), etc. I also want to know if they are too young for this and if I should wait until they are a little older. Because the protein content is so much higher in the raw food, I also want to know if anyone else has heard of, or seen a dog with”Carpel Flexural Deformity”, and if too much protein has any contributing factors. Any input you can provide would be greatly appreciated!! Also, because I can’t afford to feed them 100% raw, is it ok to give them a little? Is that still better than none at all, or should I stick to the canned?
    Thank you!

  • Shawna

    “PHILADELPHIA – Scientists have long pondered the seeming contradiction that taking broad-spectrum antibiotics over a long period of time can lead to severe secondary bacterial infections. Now researchers from the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine may have figured out why.

    The investigators show that “good” bacteria in the gut keep the immune system primed to more effectively fight infection from invading pathogenic bacteria. Altering the intricate dynamic between resident and foreign bacteria – via antibiotics, for example – compromises an animal’s immune response, specifically, the function of white blood cells called neutrophils….

    “Neutrophils are being primed by innate bacterial signals, so they are ready to go if a microbe invades the body,” Weiser explains. “They are sort of ‘idling’, and the baseline system is already turned on.”" http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2010/01/good-bacteria-prime-immune-system/

    I agree Toxed — but you knew I would :)

  • Shawna

    Why would they not survive the stomach aimee?

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Jumping in with my 2cents… if everyone knew that maintaining a healthy gut prevented so many chronic illnesses, 1) it would take a huge bite out of current mainstream medical practice’s income, and 2) the majority of folks would pooh, pooh it until it ‘became pressingly relevant’ to them. IMCynicalO

  • Shawna

    The enzyme caspases is involved in apoptosis (cell suicide). Cancer can’t happen if apoptosis is working properly.

    “Excessive apoptosis causes atrophy, whereas an insufficient amount results in uncontrolled cell proliferation, such as cancer.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis

  • Shawna

    You would think Ashley but sadly the answer is no..

    From medical dictionary

    A partial list of the wide variety of complaints and illnesses that can be treated by enzyme therapy includes:
    AIDS
    anemia
    alcohol consumption
    anxiety
    acute inflammation
    back pain
    cancer
    colds
    chronic fatigue syndrome
    colitis
    constipation
    diarrhea
    food allergies
    gastritis
    gastric duodenal ulcer
    gout
    headaches
    hepatitis
    hypoglycemia
    infections
    mucous congestion
    multiple sclerosis
    nervous disorders
    nutritional disorders
    obesity
    premenstrual syndrome (PMS)
    stress
    http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/p/enzyme%20therapy

  • Ashley

    Wow! Lots of good information here. Although I see the benefits to adding probiotics and enzymes to the diet, like Gordon said it doesn’t seem like a necessity. But what I find the most difficult to believe is that it prevents cancer. With info like that you think the entire population would be on them to avoid the potentially deadly cancer. If probiotics etc really worked that well, wouldn’t it be more common knowledge rather than that just of holistic communities?

  • aimee

    Thanks Shawna .. that makes more sense.

    I don’t think enyzyme supplements are necessary as a digestive aid, especially as most don’t survive the stomach and are given in such low doses.

    However, I’m also very intrigued by some of the studies I’ve read in regards to arthritis and cancer. Mother Nature is conservative… do these compounds we call enzymes have other functions separate from their role in digestion?? I don’t know.

  • aimee

    Gordon… that’s why I said it is controversial! I have read that garlic contains less thiosulfates than onion yet one of the most respected toxicology groups in our country states garlic is more portent. Perhaps both are correct.

    If I’m reading this right it seems this reference lists three thiosulfate compounds in onion as causative agents of oxidative damage in rbc’s of dogs and lists eight substances in garlic which cause damage of which only 1 is a thiosulfate ?? Not sure how they classify these compounds . http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bbb/67/7/1594/_pdf

    I’ve found several references that state a toxic dose of onion is 5 grams/kg and that garlic is 1 to 2 cloves /kg and an average clove weights of 3 to 6 grams. So by weight the toxicity between the two seem equivalent to me for what it’s worth.

  • Shawna

    Gordon :)

    Yes my friend, I knew what I was in for when I left my post ;) .

    BTW — it’s not digestive issues that concern me. It’s the lack of metabolic enzymes necessary to prevent cancer, arthritis etc. Yes, are grandparents may not be taking supplemental enzymes but they certainly are developing cancer, arthritis and other enzymes related diseases.

    “Nearly all pathogens, including cancer cells, are protected by a protein-based coating, or “fibrin”, that makes it difficult for the immune system to identify and destroy them. This sticky coating can be up to 15 times thicker than the membrane of normal cells (1,5). This is where metabolic enzymes are needed. The bulk of these enzymes are proteases, or “protealytic”, which means they speed up the breakdown of proteins. In sufficient quantities, they digest the protective fibrin membrane and expose the cancer cells to the immune system.” http://www.naturalnews.com/022452.html#ixzz1d2LVn266

  • Shawna

    Sorry about the duplicating paragraphs — When initially pasted the first two showed up as X X X X. So I deleted and copy/pasted a different way without realizing that it still posted?? Weird..

  • Shawna

    From How Stuff Works website

    “At any given moment, all of the work being done inside any cell is being done by enzymes. If you understand enzymes, you understand cells….

    The purpose of an enzyme in a cell is to allow the cell to carry out chemical reactions very quickly. These reactions allow the cell to build things or take things apart as needed. This is how a cell grows and reproduces. At the most basic level, a cell is really a little bag full of chemical reactions that are made possible by enzymes!

    There are hundreds or millions of copies of each different type of enzyme, depending on how important a reaction is to a cell and how often the reaction is needed. These enzymes do everything from breaking glucose down for energy to building cell walls, constructing new enzymes and allowing the cell to reproduce. Enzymes do all of the work inside cells.

    There are hundreds or millions of copies of each different type of enzyme, depending on how important a reaction is to a cell and how often the reaction is needed. These enzymes do everything from breaking glucose down for energy to building cell walls, constructing new enzymes and allowing the cell to reproduce. Enzymes do all of the work inside cells.

    There are hundreds or millions of copies of each different type of enzyme, depending on how important a reaction is to a cell and how often the reaction is needed. These enzymes do everything from breaking glucose down for energy to building cell walls, constructing new enzymes and allowing the cell to reproduce. Enzymes do all of the work inside cells…” http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/cellular-microscopic/cell2.htm

  • Shawna

    Not exactly Aimee. I didn’t word that very well.

    For those reading that don’t know — enzymes are made from amino acids (found in the protein in foods we eat).

    A single enzyme will require anywhere from “100 to 1000″ amino acids in order to form. If you use your stored supply of enzymes to digest your food then your body has to use amino acids to form the new digestive enzymes. These amino acids used could have been used for enzymes elsewhere in the body.

    If a dog (or human) is on too low a protein diet, not digesting protein properly, being fed less biologically available proteins etc, those amino acids may not be there for the building of every enzyme needed by every cell of the body.

  • Gordon

    Sorry Shawna – Implying that you’ve fallen victim to what those professionals advocate, was a wrong choice of phrase. Their information is probably very informative and truthful in many aspects, but I meant to convey (and I should have done it using a different written tone of expression), that sometimes, one can be so entrenched in their belief system, that they forget that what they advocate, is not an actual must do, but instead, a can do, or it doesn’t hurt to do, or it can help, predicated on what is fed, etc.

    Ashley – As promised, I would post in depth what I’d recommend raw wise, is as follows. Apart from a rotation of Bravo and Darwins, should you want to actually feed the dog’s closest natural diet, then that would be that, based, on the prey model or close to, of which whom, through all the fog of misconceptions, close truths, half truths, fallacies, and lies, Dr. Tom Lonsdale advocates the clearest truth.

    And so, the following is some of my own feeding regime provided to my dogs, of which is as an example over say a 2 week period:-

    Monday –

    Breakfast: Rabbit meaty offcuts mixed with a proportion of Dr. Bruce Syme’s Vets All Natural premix (My convenient version or way of providing a percentage of digestible nutrient rich carb matter)

    Dinner: Raw meaty bone (RMB) say a chicken wing each (Not forgetting that my dogs are small class 2: terriers, under 10kg)

    Tuesday –

    Breakfast: Kangaroo meaty offcuts mixed with a proportion of Dr. Bruce Syme’s Vets All Natural premix

    Dinner: RMB, say beef soup bones or marrow bones

    Wednesday -

    Breakfast: Lamb meaty offcuts mixed with proportion offal (organs) say heart.

    Dinner: RMB, say lamb briskets (Meaty lamb ribs)

    Thursday –

    No breakfast – Intentional

    Dinner: RMB – whole chicken frame each

    Friday -

    No breakfast – Intentional

    Dinner: Whole raw fish each, unscaled, with head (most nutritious part) intact. A once a week meal.

    Saturday –

    Breakfast: Whole raw certified organic eggs

    Dinner: Whole wild rabbit carcass

    Sunday -

    No food at all – Intentional fast, as a mimic to Nature for wolves in the wild, who don’t always have something to eat everyday. Intentional fasting is healthy for the dog’s biological and digestive processes.

    Monday -

    Breakfast: All raw liver meal only (A once in every fortnight meal). Liver from any animal suffices, and is one of the most nutrient dense organs available. Especially high in vitamin A. I’ll usually rotate between chicken and lamb liver.

    Dinner: Turkey necks

    Tuesday -

    Breakfast: Pork meaty offcuts mixed with proportion of spleen

    Dinner: Chicken frames

    Wednesday -

    No breakfast – Intentional

    Dinner: Lamb briskets

    Thursday -

    Breakfast: A couple scoops of certified organic yoghurt with juiced kale and or spinach and or sometimes both

    Dinner: Whole raw fish

    Friday -

    No breakfast – Intentional

    Dinner: RMB, say chicken wing and a couple of necks each

    Saturday -

    Breakfast: Whole raw certified organic eggs with proportion of offal, say lung

    Dinner: Chicken frames

    Sunday -

    No food again – Intentional fasting day.

    ETC ETC ETC.

    In between breakfast and dinner, I sometimes provide healthy treats such as air-dried liver, lamb crumbles, pig ears, pig trotters etc.

    Anyway, this is just an example of what I rotate and feed and how. You can do the same and/or feed something like Bravo and/or a rotation of both systems, etc. There is no right and wrong and as long as variety is kept in focus in addition to the mindset of natural and raw real food way of feeding our 4 legged best friends.

  • Gordon

    But in regards to supplemental enzymes and probiotics, I stand by my opinion, that it is a waste of money when feeding species appropriate evolutionary, ancestral prey model raw diet.

    I don’t think I was providing a “disservice” to Ashley at all. If anything, I would hope that I would be saving her some money.

    Granted that such supplemental enzymes and probioitics can provide beneficial digestive support when fed just processed canned or kibble food. But how many dogs that eat top quality 5 star kibble that also don’t get these supplements, and do just fine with no digestive issues? Thousands!!

    Now, feeding a raw diet or converting your dog to a raw meaty diet simply does not require supplemental enzymes. You’re going to hate me Shawna when I imply, that you’ve fallen victim to the hype caused by the people you mention when you said, “I however have gained my knowledge base from a wide variety of sources — both vets, nutritionists and human doctors (Dr. Becker, Dr. Goldstein, Dr. Jones, Beth Taylor, Mary Straus, Lew Olson, Dr. Thomason—that doesn’t even include the human doctors).”

    Why are so many elderly living longer lives and never even heard of enzyme supplementation? Much less feed their pets such? Come on Shawna. Think about it? You make it sound like it is an absolute must that it be included in a diet when this is simply not the case. I guess this is simply something we will hugely disagree over and just as passionately you endorse its use when feeding a raw diet to a healthy dog, I denounce its use as simply extra money spent when not required. E.g. feeding a high protein raw diet has all natural enzymatic and bacterial processes available, even if not laying on dirt collecting extra soil microbes.

    BTW, Billinghurst does not say supplemental enzymes and probiotics should be fed when feeding a BARF or simlar raw diet. He only gives it the “OK” if an owner feels the need to spend the extra money should it make them feel better about providing such to their pets. In fact, the only real supplement that he actually does emphasize should be a must, is cod liver oil! That being if you decide to add any kind of supplement, be it that one.

  • Gordon

    I accidentally hit the enter button. I intended to further address aimee, when I hit the enter button.

    aimee – garlic doesn’t have the high concentration of thiosulphate that onion does, so I can see why Dr. Becker would think otherwise! High concentration of thiosulphate will cause Heinz body anemia, hence onions are much more dangerous for dogs, and even more so for cats. But small amounts of garlic a day for dogs, suffices just perfectly.

    In fact, to counter claim the ASPCA’s hysteria, Dr. Lisa S. Newman, ND PhD, states, “garlic is falling victim to mass hysteria spread through the internet. Yes, there are 51,174 sites devoted to warning about the “toxicity” of garlic, this hysteria has even prompted the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center to place a warning on garlic although there is little scientific data to back this claim other than the fact that thiosulphate is also found in garlic. Yet, there are also over 400,000 sites still proclaiming its benefits, many of them from reputable holistic veterinarians who have widely used garlic in their practice for many years! How can an herb suddenly turn so bad?!”

  • Gordon

    Ashley – I agree with Shawna on the huge benefits of garlic for not only humans, but our dogs, too. Not so much as a flea repellent, but just as a general and natural antioxidant and antibiotic. It contains a sulphur compound called allicin. Allicin is a powerful and natural antibiotic, and helps kill off the bad pathogens of the body, and promote good bacteria. A bit like probiotics in a way. It’s also know to reduce cholesterol (In the case with human consumption), and is one of the most potent antioxidants, the world over! It is a super food, with out a shadow of a doubt.

    aimee -

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    Are you saying that a dog’s digestive enzyme can be used for a metabolic reaction if oral enzymes are supplemented?
    I don’t understand how this could be as enzymes are very specific in their function

  • aimee

    Garlic is one of those controversial ingredients. ASPCA poison control reports that garlic is a more potent toxin than onion (I’m not sure why Dr Becker appears to think otherwise) and recommends to not feed garlic to pets because of unknown individual sensitivities. (Japanese breeds as a rule are more sensitive)

    While ASPCA reports most problems occur with large ingestions they state chronic exposure is a problem as well. The minimum dose reported at which toxic effects were seen in a dog was 2.5mg/kg of garlic powder. I’m guessing that would be equivalent to 25 mg/kg of fresh garlic. Considering an average clove is 5000 mg one can see that in a sensitive dog even a small amount can prove problematic. http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/ask-the-expert/ask-the-expert-poison-control/treats-with-garlic.aspx

    There are no doubt benefits to feeding garlic, but I choose not to feed it to my dogs while others have done so successfully without any known adverse effects. Guess that is why it will always remain controversial : )!

  • Shawna

    Ashley,

    “Large doses” — true enough but most dogs wouldn’t willingly consume the amount actually needed to cause heinz body anemia.

    Dr. Becker (from Mercola Healthy Pets) talks about safe amounts of garlic to feed dogs and cats on her clinic website.
    “Garlic is naturally anti-parasitic, anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. Garlic, in small amounts, is a wonderful addition to your pet’s diet. Fresh garlic should always be used, giving cats and small dogs ¼ to ½ clove/day, medium dogs a ½ to 1 clove daily and big dogs 1–1½ cloves daily. Onion, a relative of garlic, produces anemia in pets and should not be fed.

    *Additional info for vets: Onion toxicity is caused by the metabolite alkaloid n-propyl disulphide which inhibits normal enzyme activity in red blood cells and causes them to denature, producing Heinz body anemia. Garlic is metabolized to allyl propyl disulfide, which does not inhibit red blood cell enzyme activity unless consumed in massive quantities(4).” http://www.drkarenbecker.com/nutrition/raw_food_diets.htm

    Dr. Martin Goldstein calls garlic a panacea in his book “The Nature of Animal Healing”.. :) Holistic vets have been using garlic for a long time..

    Garlic helps from the inside out. Using the spray that Sandy mentions or mint that Toxed mentions would be an extra bonus protection.

  • sandy

    Ashley,

    mercola also has a natural flea/tick spray. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/products.aspx

  • Ashley

    That was another question I had. I know this is a little off topic but I was wondering what I could give my
    Dog instead of flea and tick meds. My thoughts are, if I don’t feed my dog chemicals why put it on my dogs skin? I’ve heard about garlic but I’m apprehensive because garlic is supposed to be bad for dogs in large doses? What would you recommend to prevent or treat flea or tick problems?

  • Shawna

    Just saw the comments on Milk thistle — COMPLETELY agree.. I don’t use heartworm or flea/tick meds so I don’t give milk thistle regularly..

  • Shawna

    Hi Ashley,

    I’m with Gordon on commercial raw brands — Darwins, Bravo Balance (or others as you learn the ropes of feeding raw) and Primal non-poultry products. Everything else I’ve looked at is too high in fat or subjected to high pressure pasteurization.

    I give enzymes at every meal.. Dogs do make their own enzymes and there is some in the food but if we supply extra enzymes in the diet the ones they would produce on their own can be used for metabolic purposes — to deal with the dirty world that Sandy mentions.. I agree with Sandy completely..

    I give probiotics OR foods with extra probiotics off and on. Probiotics are self sustaining if fed the foods they eat. BUT, antibiotics, chlorinated tap water, chemicals life heartworm (I’ve heard) can kill whats there. I don’t give my pups any of the above so they should have a good gut colony. However, because of fostering, they get introduced to a wide variety of bad guys — like giardia. When we have a round of diarrhea in the house (which is a major issue with 8 to 10 dogs) I start adding probiotics (as well as small amounts of garlic and pumpkin) to their diets.

    I give other supplements off and on (kelp, spirulina, turmeric, pumpkin seed oil plus) but they are not necessary in a species appropriate diet. My dogs are all rescue and damaged dogs so I give extra. Sandy mentioned spirugreen — another excellent supplement..

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    I also use Mercola’s Healthy Pet probiotics and enzymes. :-) I use organic parsley or alfalfa, because I have a source for he parsley and grow the alfalfa. Reduces any odors from body wind, if your supplementing with fish or krill oil.

    Good protocol Sandy! You’re right, those are all reasonable sources of toxins to be aware of. :-) feeding a quality diet and preventing/reducing toxic exposures are the best things to do to keep your pet healthy. You can get Milk thistle in most health food stores, just make sure that there are no, to very few, additives. They’re usually under “other ingredients.”

  • sandy

    Jan,

    There’s probably not enough milk thistle in the Great Life Enzymes/Pro to do a detox after medications. Dr Beckers books says 100 mg a day for a week? after heartworm meds, but you’d have to ask Great Life and see if they tell you the exact amount of it. But then again, is it enough to help on a daily level for everyday toxins? I don’t know. Is some small amount better than none at all?

    Ashley,

    I use Nature’s Variety Beef and Primal Duck, Quail, Turkey Sardine and Rabbit. I also use the Mercola pet probiotics and digestive enzymes and supergreen. Not everyday. I’m sure our dogs get some unintended/unknown level of toxin exposure/body stressor daily even if it’s just from air pollution or drinking from a water puddle along the sidewalk while out somewhere or maybe even while going on a walk. My neighborhood is pretty strict about weeds, so I’m guessing they use chemicals in the common areas. I’d like to think I’m helping their bodies be as healthy as possible since today’s world is so “dirty”.

    If you click on the product, there’s lots of info to read.
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/products.aspx

  • Jan (Mom to Cavs)

    Thanks, Michelle! I’ve been very torn over whether to add the Cal. Nat. grainfree chicken to my dogs’ kibble rotation. I love it on paper, but for some reason just can’t get past the P&G thing. Hearing about your experience, eventhough it was with canned food, just makes me even more nervous about using it. So far, I have been using Brothers, Halo (has some grains, but no potato, and my picky one loves, loves it), Earthborn Coastal Catch (not their buffalo flavor, as my dogs don’t do well with it….I know it has potato, but is a good food), Now! Small Breed (again it uses potato). I was so looking to add another food without potato and probably take away the ones with it. Cal. Nat. gf chicken is a decent price, too, but I just am too nervous to try. Darn it…P&G! I’d love to try Nutrisca or Great Life but can’t get them locally. I’m not opposed to ordering online (I order Brothers, of course, but I do get free shipping) so I might eventually try them.

  • Ashley

    I’m interested to hear what raw products or brands of raw food and supplements youd recommend shawna? I’m open to everyones opinions. The transition from Orijen to raw has been smooth so far-I can thank the high quality of champion petfoods for that but may end up feeding only raw :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Wow! Great information! :-)

  • Shawna

    I’m sorry, Gordon mentions humans don’t get supplemental sources of enzymes and probiotics and this may be true with our modern day processing of foods. But, this is not the case with traditional human foods. We ate a significant amount of supplemental enzymes and probiotics when we prepared our foods at home. Examples of foods that used to be full of enzymes and probiotics (and still are if home made) — raw milk yogurt or better yet raw milk kefir, pickles, olives, saurekraut, pickled beets, soy sauce, tamari, beer, wine, kimchi, kombucha tea, fermented meats (fermented is also referred to as cultured). The list goes on and on and the cultured foods eaten was dependant on region.

  • Shawna

    PS —- I highly respect and very much like Gordon.. And, agree with him on most issues. This is just not one of them..

  • Shawna

    Gordon — I think you just did Ashley a huge disservice.. You just recommended that a Orijen kibble feeder (part time) not give enzymes or probiotics because the raw she JUST started feeding should have it.. Stop and think with me a moment — she is not able to get Bravo (the food she originally wanted) and is feeding Primal instead. She mentions that she will stay with the poultry free BUT if she decides to start feeding any of the poultry (that has been subjected to HPP) the food will be, most certainly, deficient in both..??

    Ashley — you haven’t heard about enzymes and probiotics because, I’m guessing, you are not in any holistic forums/communities… Allopathic medicine/feeding is JUST discovering and implementing the benefits of probiotics. Yogurt, by the way, IS NOT a good way of getting probiotics in most states in the US. In the US most yogurt is made from ultra pasteurized dairy — all enzymes are damaged as well as proteins and any naturally occuring probiotics. Feeding dairy, in the US, is a really good way to cause your dog to develop leaky gut/food allergies/intolerances/malnutrition etc…

    A wolf would get supplemental enzymes and probiotics from buried bones, raw tripe (guts and content of guts), the prey animals pancreas and poop eating.. Gordon mentions that Dr. Lonsdale (in another post) finds it completely normal for a dog to eat bunny and cat feces for their supplemental needs — I personally prefer to take the route of a purchased product. Yes bunny and kitty poop is free — but I’d rather not go there. By the way — my raw fed dogs of over 5 years, ate bunny poo before I started supplementing enzymes..

    Gordon likes to quote Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Billinghurst (Billinghurst does recommend supplementation by the way). I however have gained my knowledge base from a wide variety of sources — both vets, nutritionists and human doctors (Dr. Becker, Dr. Goldstein, Dr. Jones, Beth Taylor, Mary Straus, Lew Olson, Dr. Thomason—that doesn’t even include the human doctors). My father is a Naturopathic Doctor.. I assure you, it is quite healthful for humans to take probiotics and enzymes as well.. Just becuase one isn’t taking them doesn’t mean they shouldn’t.. Anyone that is routinely ill, has indigestion, bloating, poor stool quality, yeast infections plus many many many more conditions could benefit..

    Did you know that probiotics are beneficial for the immune system. If you (or your dog) have an ample supply of the right gut flora the neutrophil white blood cells are “primed” and ready for any invader that might enter your body…

    Did you know that enzymes “treat” a variety of diseases (like arthritis, colds, allergies, CANCER plus a very very long list of others).

    The other thing I want to mention — “health” is subjective.. About 60 to 70% of the bodies “vital force” has to be deteriorated before symptoms appear.. Meaning you (or your dog) are well into sickness before you see ANY symptom… You don’t just develop cancer overnight. Kidneys have to be about 65% dead before the first symptoms start to appear. This is an irreversible disease.

    If you fed your dog Dr. Lonsdale’s diet I would say it is safe to say that you don’t need the supplements. BUT, unless you are giving your dog bones to bury and eat outside (where probiotics will be picked up off the ground), feeding whole carcasses (guts and all), cat and bunny poop etc —- you are NOT getting the same diet that he refers to in his book….

    I can provide you with a laundry list of human doctors and nutritionists that recommend the inclusion of enzymes and probiotics but as this is a dog food site I will refrain.

  • Gordon

    Ashley – You’re welcome. I’m actually very busy right now, and don’t have anymore time to post at the moment. But I will answer your question in depth. But just quickly and in short, if you wanted a good commercial BARF style premade raw food for your dog, then I think Bravo and Darwins are your best bet.

    Anyway, I’ll answer what my opinions on this, more in depth in 18 hours time or so. Ciao for now.

  • Michelle

    Hi Jan, I was skimming through comments the other day, and noticed one from you ( I think) about using Cali natural or something from P&G. I didn’t have time to post then, so I wanted to let you know what happened with my cats. I used to feed them the canned Innova cat/kitten food before the sale to P&G, and they always liked and did well on it. Well last week I picked up four cans, and after one feeding of it, all 3 cats started having liquid stools, I mean mud puddles in their litter box. It took 3 days for them to even get formed diarrhea. 7 days later their stools are still soft, but on the way back to normal. I am returning the remaining 3 cans, and will never buy this product again as their is something VERY wrong with it. Just wanted to let you know. ;o

  • Ashley

    Thank you Gordon, very informative as always. I think I’ll stay away from any bottled supplements since my dog is incredibly healthy. Gordon, what products and brands would you recommend as far as raw feeding goes?

  • Mary Lou

    Jan ~

    I have been using this supplement for a few months ~ powder form. I ran it by Shawna ~ so it passes the test. : ) Dupree is eating canned Instinct in the morning; so I throw it in there. After his latest run in with the flea bite ~ he received additional milk thistle after his course of meds. He eats Stella and Chewy’s for dinner; so I do not add it to that.

  • Jan (Mom to Cavs)

    Sandy, I have some of this prob/enzyme 2 in 1 on hand. Since you recommend using enzymes all the time (but not probs.) would you recommend using this all the time? Also, are there vitamins in this? Is the milk thistle enough to do “justice”? Sorry for all the questions, but I’ve been wondering about this supplement for awhile now.

  • sandy

    Monkey,

    This 2 in 1 pro/enzymes comes in a 100 ct chewable.

    http://www.doctorsfinest.com/Enzymes_Probiotics_plus_4lb_p/ezpro.htm

    They have an herbal flea/tick spray too.

  • Gordon

    About a month ago now, I helped a family friend’s dog’s issue with too much and too frequent defecating, causing stools, both loose and hard, piling up like a hill in just a 24 hour period. Granted, that they had their dog on some cheap supermarket crappy dog food. I had convinced them to follow the feeding regime I and many others use, being that of Mother Nature’s concept, and given a voice through scientists like Dr. Lonsdale to advocate such, and in a matter of a few weeks, their dog’s digestive health returned to a more normal pattern, with less and firmer and smaller stool amounts in a 24 hour period. This was with feeding a diet of mainly RMB’s, and some offal, and a little salad leftovers the family produce, with raw eggs a couple times a week (Although I feed this once a week), and whole raw fish once a week, and with out any bottled enzyme or probiotic supplements whatsoever!

    In addition, their dog is shedding less fur and its coat is smoother and more lustrous. Its teeth is taking a while to improve, but this is to be expected since it was on years of neglect eating processed doggy biscuits/pellets. However, the teeth are getting somewhat better than what they were with some previous tartar buildup, on the decrease according to their report (I haven’t been around their house for a few weeks now).

    I just wish I could convince my neighbour to embrace the truth and feed his dog Mother Nature’s intended way. But at least he now feeds his dog a better brand of kibble in Earthborn than the Purina crap he was feeding it. And I should mention in his case and the case of people just feeding kibble (cooked, baked, extruded, doggy biscuits/pellets; artificial food), that perhaps supplemental enzymes and probiotics may be a little beneficial in such cases. Having said that, my neigbour’s dog’s stool has also showed improvement as well as improvement in its overall health.

  • Gordon

    Oh one other thing on this topic….Do you take supplemental enzymes and probiotics from commercial bottled/capsule/tablet form? I know I don’t and still am healthy and nothing wrong with my digestion. I also know that the human’s nutritional system for a lack of a better description is far more complex than any other life form/organism’s requirement.

    Some points for you to consider from an anti-commercial supplemental enzyme and probiotic use perspective, for healthy beings.

  • Gordon

    Ashley – No offence to any other regular commenter here, as Mike S and everyone knows my strong feelings and belief, but I have to also say, that the reason why (and I’m not surprised) you’ve never heard of adding these kind of supplements anywhere else, but here, is because, from most raw feeding forums and communities, most don’t spread that rubbish. Having said that, the good thing is, that this community is much more open and varied in opinions on 4 legged nutrition etc. as well as having some of the most informed and self educated people on nutrition than many other internet communities.

    As far as this blog is concerned, the enzyme and probiotic debate and recommendations started not so long ago, with a few different commenters, coming from other sites, extensively believing in such supplements, as well as one, who sells a particular kibble product that is claimed to have these 2 supplements already in them, via encapsulation (differing to other kibble brands that is believed to have their added probiotics activated to early due to the little moisture in kibble, rendering them useless), and therefore a great way to market a niche with a difference, etc. And therefore, arising from all these different commenters, has caused many such recommendations and debates on adding enzymes and probiotics to the dog’s diet.

    But again, totally unnecessary when it comes to feeding natural raw real food!

  • Gordon

    Ashley – Just my 2 cents. There is no need whatsoever in the history of all wolf-kind to add any bottled probiotics or enzymes to raw food!!!! None, zip, zero!!!

    Raw meat have naturally occurring enzymes and a healthy dog’s system processes raw meat and bone to perfection as only Mother Nature intended!!! Even if you never even ever give your dog the ‘pancreas’ offal/organ to eat, it sill does not need bottled supplemental enzymes and probiotics, guaranteed!

    I’m a raw feeder basing my feeding regime on the ideal of Dr. Tom Lonsdale, and he confirms all supplements are a waste of money.

    I’ve been feeding raw meaty bones (RMB’s), offal, carcasses, whole raw eggs, whole raw fish etc, with out any bottled profit making enzymes or probiotics. And guess what? My dogs from different litters and different ages and different breeds, albeit both terrier class dogs, are doing perfectly and have super great biodegradable stools and not much of it compared to feeding processed commercial pet foods.

    It does appear though, that many commenters here have sickly dogs with history of ailments, for whatever reason, including obtaining them as rescues and fostering them (An admirable and wonderful act of compassion), and so, could probably do with some supplemental enzymes and/or probiotics or both, for aiding in digestive issues that their dogs may have, of which otherwise, healthy dogs DO NOT!!!

    As an experienced raw feeder to healthy dogs, I feel very strongly about the subject, and I can guarantee that bottled commercial enzymes and probiotics are totally unnecessary. However, natural probiotics by way of certified organic all natural yoghurt is always a nice addition to add to some meals on occasion, as do I.

    However, should you wish to buy any commercial bottled enzyme and or probiotic supplements, then by all means do so, as you’ll at least be contributing your money to your national and or global economy and keep those manufacturers employing staff. Spreading the wealth around is not a bad thing if one doesn’t mind throwing some spare money, away.

  • Ashley

    I’ve never heard of giving a dog probiotics before finding this website. Why is there a need to do this if the food is properly balanced nutritionally? And how would I add it to the diet if I chose to do so? Sorry for all the questions I just want what’s best for my girl :)

    And as long as I stay away from the poultry,I don’t need to worry about HPP the other primal products?

  • Shawna

    Ashley,

    Primal is (was imo) a REALLY good food. They must have had some bacterial issues because earlier this year they started high pressure pasteurizing their “poultry” products (so the duck, pheasant, quail etc). In my opinion, a food subjected to high pressure pasteurization is no longer truly raw. However, it does address your concerns about possible contamination issues.

    The food also has a great fat to protein ratio (some raw foods are WAY TOO HIGH in fat). And, the omega 6 to 3 ratio of the different foods are within ideal ranges. They have a ton of variety (if you are willing to use the poultry products) and as you stated are hormone and antibiotic free and the veggies are primarily organic…

    Primal was a LARGE part of my rotation til they started HPP. Even though subjected to HPP, its still better then canned or kibble.. :)

    I would suggest that you eliminate one of the exotic proteins (like quail) from any rotation that you might do just in case you ever have to do a novel protein diet — like to diagnose a food allergy or intolerance…

    And to answer your question — imo, even raw fed dogs can benefit from digestive enzymes with each meal. Probiotics are handy to give off and on. These two should absolutely be supplemented in a kibble diet so really you wouldn’t be adding anything if feeding raw — just continuing these two.

    And, as you state — Orijen is a good kibble. However, it is not unusual when adding raw to the diet to have a minor healing episode. The body does a miny detox (which is good). Symptoms can be short term diarrhea, eye and/or ear drainage etc. The healing episode (also called a cleansing crisis) happens so often that Dr. Martin Goldstein has a whole chapter about it in his book “The Nature of Animal Healing”. Don’t let it throw you. If pup is eating and looks and acts healthy then it may just be a little detox going on….

    GOOD LUCK

  • Shawna

    I know what you mean about one product versus many.. Believe me I DO!! Audrey, my kidney girl, takes (off and on) seven or so different food based supplements. However, I wouldn’t personally recommend Lew’s product long term.

    Here’s why — the very first ingredient is “L-glutamin”. Which is the precursor to glutamic acid (the substance that causes brain lesions in small doses– discussed on the “Nutritionism” thread). Glutamine is GREAT for repairing digestive trauma — I’ve even used SeaCure (which has freed glutamic acid in it) for my Poms colitis — BUT only long enough to heal her gut then I discontinued. Dr. Mercola (human doctor) talks about the dangers of the supplement “glutamine” here http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004/05/01/glutamine.aspx

    Second, there are only 3 different probiotics in it. There are 14 known in the canine gut. If I remember right, Richard’s kibble has more then B-Naturals product. These 3 may be exactly what is needed for digestive issues but is not what is needed for all the benefits probiotics provide.

    The “other ingredients” list whey — another source of freed glutamic and aspartic acids. Apparently the way it is processed has a factor on it’s health benefits. Dr. Mercola talks extensively about this but I didn’t pay attention.. Toxed probably has good info on whey…

    Depending on the processing used — “chicken liver powder” could be a source as well.

    Just my two cents :)

    PS — I buy digestive enzymes and spirulina, barley grass, turmeric, sea weeds and other supper food powders and mix them all together myself. Always using the enzymes but changing the others with each batch I make — for variety. Because I feed raw I don’t feel I need as much enzymes as a kibble feeder. And I don’t give probiotics routinely.

  • Ashley

    Thanks to Mike and shawna for the helpful responses :) I went to the same pet store I get my Orijen at but they didn’t have bravo so I tried primal instead and my dog LOVES it. I love the fact that it’s human grade and antibiotic and steroid free. Yay! If I decide to switch to raw feeding only, are the primal nuggets enough or do I need to incorporate anything else into her diet?

  • monkey

    Thanks Shawna. I’m trying to decide between B-Naturals Digestion Blend and the Dr. Becker ones. I like the idea of having both enzymes and probiotics in 1. Have you heard about the B-naturals blend, it only comes in 1 or 4 lbs though, which would take me forever.

  • Shawna

    PS — Just last Thursday I had a bout with an intestinal bug (HORRIBLE diarrhea, fever and chills). Two probiotics and a teaspoon of garlic was all I used. By the time I went to bed I was fine. I use smaller doses of the same protocol with my dogs. Hasn’t failed me yet…

  • Shawna

    Monkey — I use Garden of Life’s product called Primal Defense. It is a human product that I buy for my own use but give to the dogs as needed too.. It is made from “soil based organisms” and is one of the few probiotics on the market that does not require refrigeration. Dr. Becker makes one that is specific to dogs (there is one bacteria in the canine digestive tract that is not present in humans). Hers is the best I’ve seen for our pups..

  • monkey

    Shawna, what probiotic do you use?

  • Shawna

    Hi Ashley,

    I agree with Mike.. Any species appropriate food you add to the diet will be a benefit.. I’m a raw feeder myself. I feed anywhere from 8 to 10 dogs raw only or raw plus kibble (I foster and the foster dogs need to be able to eat kibble). I use the raw as a topper to the fosters but feeding one meal of raw and one of kibble is better..

    I don’t worry about pathogens in my healthy dogs.. Dogs are designed by nature to handle them — some eat poop after all. A friend once said “dogs use their tongue as toilet paper after all”.. Not a pretty picture but true.. They have a very high stomach acid PH, bile in the small intesting is another protective measure and beneficial bacteria in the colon is another line of defense. There is more to it then this and I’d be happy to go on but don’t want to bore you if you are good with the above.

    And if you want a little extra precaution — you can add small amounts of raw garlic to the food (garlic is very anti-pathogenic). Grated in a little olive oil and let sit for 10ish minutes usually makes it palatable to most dogs.

    If garlic isn’t your thing you can add a bit of diluted, 50/50 with water, apple cider vinegar (with the “mother”). And giving a high quality probiotic is another line of defense — these should be in every diet imo (others disagree).

    My dogs do very well on Bravo but I feed it in rotation with other foods. So not exclusively. And make sure to get the Bravo Balanced as the others are parts and pieces and not suitable for a “whole meal” (okay as a topper though). Example — the duck is way to high in calcium. Guidelines for bone is 15% of diet — the Bravo duck, I’ve been told, could be as high as twice that depending on age of duck neck used etc. The salmon, venison and buffalo have no added calcium at all etc etc..

    Hope that helps!!! :)

  • Shawna

    Mike — tried to reply to Ashley’s post but after about 5 or 6 lines of typing I could no longer see what I was typing?  I’m too long winded to keep it to 5 lines. :)

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Ashley… It’s my personal belief that any time you add fresh (cooked or raw) food to a dog’s daily diet you’re moving closer to what many would consider “the ideal”. So, provided you feed a balanced fresh diet (including such things as raw bone ) I don’t see where you would be doing anything but helping your dog’s overall nutrition.

    You may wish to check back for a response from so of our resident raw feeding experts. Hope this helps.

  • Ashley

    Hi all-

    I currently feed my 10lb. Yorkie/rat terrier mix Orijen and she does fabulously on it. Creme de la creme of dry dog foods, IMO. However, I do see the pros of raw feeding and wonder what your opinions are of supplementing one meal a day of raw and the rest Orijen? I’m also concerned about food borne illness and wonder what I could do to prevent this? My dog is incredibly healthy and I don’t want to make her ill by test running raw food. The only raw I’m really interested in feeding is Bravo. For the people who have tried it, how does your dog do on it?

  • Shawna

    Oops, after reaching website — scroll up to read article.

  • Shawna

    I just accidentally stumbled on some, imo, VERY interesting info on probiotics (from a fabulously hilarious website–about gas and farting believe it or not).. I was trying to find info to post for a Boxer with gas issues on another thread ;)

    The right kind of bacteria in our gut (and presumably a dog’s gut) can prevent the absorption of and/or health risks from “heavy metals”. In the US chickens can be a source of arsenic and cow bones, in some cases, are contaminated with lead. Then, of course, mercury in fish. http://truthaboutprobiotics.com/2011/09/16/intestinal-bacteria-affect-heavy-metal-exposure/#comment-1411

  • Shawna

    I completely agree with and respect Gordon’s opinion — he’s a smart man… Read and learn as much as one can and then decide what makes the most sense.. Other good advice from Gordon — feed as close to natural as you can…

    I wanted to state really quick — there is a known requirement for omega 6 and omega 3. Omega 6 should be more predominant in the diet. Omega 6 LA is very important for skin and coat health. IMO people are over supplementing with omega 3 because it is the current love child of nutritionism.

    ” It is well known that linoleic acid (LA), a primary omega-6 essential fatty acid that is required in the diet for dogs and cats 1, helps maintain a healthy skin and coat. Without adequate LA, dogs and cats will experience dull, dry coat; hair loss; greasy skin and increased susceptibility to skin inflammation.

    Since dog foods have been traditionally high in omega-6 PUFA, which tend to promote and exacerbate inflammatory skin lesions, changes in diets have been progressively made to correct this chronic problem.” http://www.omega3learning.uconn.edu/diet-health/view/veterinarians/articles/omega-3-fatty-acid-benefits-for-a-healthy-skincoat-of-your-pet/

    Bravo is not a “traditional” processed dog food though. It is made from high quality naturally raised meats (or so the website says).

  • Gordon

    Sherry – I got to go, but in catching your question, high meat protein and low fat sources like kangaroo meat is the most ideal to feed in your case. Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Billinghurst say so, as well as Dr. Syme. Elk and venison meat is another good source for weight management as well as fullness feeling.

    Shark cartilage supplements are great natural same for dog’s with yours stated condition.

    Anyway, good luck. Gots to go.

  • Gordon

    lynda – If you were to be interested, also have a look at what actual trained vets and world renown authors like Dr. Lonsdale and Dr. Billinghurst has to say in their books, re supplements and the natural and anatomical composition including enzymes and bacteria of Nature’s raw meats, etc.

    Nutrition isn’t rocket science as one previous regular DFA blogger used to say. Dr. Billinghurst also says the same thing in one of his books.

    I believe in mostly what Dr. Lonsdale has to say. It comes closest to making the most sense out of what dogs and cats really require and what they don’t require.

    Do read as much as you like, given time, including Steve Brown’s book. The more literature you read the better. You can actually read a whole first chapter of Steve Brown’s book on line for free, as Google has it available.

    Also Dr. Lonsdale recommends feeding raw meaty bones, and offal on the dirt and grass out in your back yard, just as Nature intended where that is where a dog’s true dining table resides! Mother Nature, and your dogs cleans up all the mess and the rest is history, given the elements of weather, and the processes of Nature’s true course.

  • Sherry

    This question may fall into the area of being to customized to answer, but thought I would try anyway since I can’t figure this out on my own. I have a very overweight 2 yr old Sheltie that I adopted from a pound in June. I have her weight within 2 lbs of what the vet recommended by using NutraScience Weight management dry and Wellness Canned. She has been diagnosed with auto immune poly arthritis and was 3 legged for awhile, with Predisone she is now back to walking pretty normally however the drug is making her sooooo hungry. I was looking for a brand of dog food that would make her feel full, but yet be a “diet” food to keep her weight off. Thank you!

  • Shawna

    PS — wolves would get a huge amount of soil based organisms from burying their bones. If you feed tripe and let your dog bury his/her food then you can skip the probiotics too :)

  • Shawna

    lynda,

    My family is almost here so making this quick. I disagree with the others… Raw foods can have probiotics already on them but if they have probiotics they will also likely have bad bacteria — both come from the same place. However, probiotics are not a supplement that would need to be taken every day. And, things that you give your dog may kill the natural gut flora off — like chlorinated water or meds (like steroids, antibiotics or NSAIDs). Because they are SOO important for health (including the immune system) imo they should be supplemented off and on — OR, feed raw green tripe which is where wolves would get some of their supplemental probiotics.

    Bravo recommends adding salmon oil but I chatted with them once and it is a precautionary recommendation. It is not necessary in every situation. Example — if you feed any of the red meats (which are grass fed) they already have a proper omega 6 to 3 ratio. By adding additional omega 3 you will over supplement which can cause damage on a cellular level. Also, I think sardines are a much more natural source of DHA/EPA then processed oils. Just my opinion though…

    Steve Brown writes about this in his book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” —- “A good dietary omega 6/-3 balance, which includes consumption of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), makes the cell membranes fluid, permeable, flexible, and healthy. Too much omega-6 (from chicken fat, corn oil, safflower oil, soy oil, canola oil), on the other hand, makes the cell membranes (including those in the brain) brittle, sluggish, and inefficient. As a result, the dog thinks and moves a little slower. Likewise, too much DHA in the diet can make the cell membranes prone to oxidation, which leads to premature aging.” Excellent book btw… :)

    Gotta run, my family just got here…

  • monkey

    lynda schaffer – Bravo doesn’t pasteurize, so probiotics would not be necessary. Salmon oil would be advantageous like Gordon said.

  • Gordon

    lynda schaffer – salmon oil would be advantageous but a priobiotic is unnecessary to add to something that’s raw, unless of course, Bravo is pasteurized? That I don’t know? Otherwise if it is not, IMO, probioitcs in bottle form is not needed. You’d be better off with real untampered organic yoghurt cultures. Bravo on paper looks like an excellent premade raw product!

  • lynda schaffer

    Does anyone know if giving a probiotic and salmon oil with Bravo is necessary or simply recommended?

  • Robert

    Where can u buy this food at? Is it online only?

  • Christina

    Ha. Actually I just found it. Thanks.

  • Michelle

    Hi Christina, You can either call or e-mail Bravo to get the answer. Calling would be your best option, to get the quickest response. http://www.bravorawdiet.com/index.html

  • Christina

    Hi Michelle,
    I looked through the brands that are on the link you provided and went to each brands website as well. I could only find the phosphorus percentage for BARF and Primal. BARF’s chicken patties seem comparable to k/d’s phosphorus content but Primal’s are way too high for the needs of my dog. I was hoping to find Bravo’s phosphorus content but I can’t seem to find it anywhere.

  • Michelle
  • Christina

    Hello,
    My dog just went to the vet and is showing signs of early kidney disease according to her blood work. She has never been on raw food before but would like to switch her since I really want to avoid the prescription dog food like Hills and Royal Canin. I am trying to find a pre-made raw food with low phosphorus content but I can’t seem to find the phosphorus amount for many of the brands like Bravo. Does anybody have any recommendations or know which raw food has the lowest phosphorus percentage? Thanks.

  • Gordon

    Sydney – Sorry that I never saw your question. I’d be happy to share my 2.35 cents worth. Bravo should have their own suggested feeding guide, but the general rule for BARF type meals, is to feed your dog anywhere from 2 to 6% of the dog’s own body weight, depending on its activity levels, age, and whether a lactating or pregnant bitch.

  • Trice

    Would love if you could evaluatge raw unbleached green tripe from A Place for Paws. Thank you.

  • Sydney

    Due to my dog being more and more finicky about her dry dog food over the past year, I have been incorporating canned food to help entice her to eat. However, that pretty much just resulted in her avoiding the now moist, dry food and focusing solely on the wet food in the mix….though, still not having quite the appetite she used to have. (I want to add in that I have taken her to the vet to ensure there wasn’t an underlying problem affecting her appetite.) So, since she has backed me into this corner, haha, I figure I’d start looking at the raw diet side of the coin if I’m shelling out more money anyways. What I was wondering about this food, is what the recommended portion size for a 50lb dog? So, I can figure out if I can afford to eventually make this switch if need be.

    Thank you in advance!
    -Sydney

  • natalie

    thanks gordon

    i will rty both. ur right about them liking to have the kibble spread out. when he eats and doesnt finsish some kibble, i spread the remaining kibble out on the floor and he eats it. sometimes i toss one kibble at a time and he runs and eats it

    thanks sandi, that is a great idea

  • http://www.whosyourvet.com Sandi

    Durapet Slow Feed Stainless Steel Dog Bowls are designed to slow down your dog’s eating to improve digestion and nutrient absorption. Made using premium heavy duty stainless steel with a permanently molded rubber ring in the base for slip resistance and noise reduction. Dishwasher safe. Lifetime warranty. Imported.

    I’m sure Big Box probably carries these bowls as well.

    http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?sku=130606&rn=889

  • Gordon

    Natalie – Spread the kibble around a greater area, including beyond the bowl. Spread it out evenly. Your gulper will be forced to scour for the kibble forcing it to not be able to vacuum it up and make it take about 10 times longer in finishing the meal. In addition, dogs actually and instinctively love to scour, so your dog will even enjoy doing this. Another great benefit of doing this, is that dogs, usually won’t defecate where they eat (That’s if you have a problem where it defecates where you don’t want it to do so).

    Also, you could top the kibble with a good quality low fat yoghurt, and mix it well inside the bowl with the kibble (You don’t need to spread it beyond the bowl). This usually works well as well, and will make the dog lick the yoghurt and eat the kibble much slower. Most dogs will love the extra palatibility of the yoghurt topping/mixture, plus the fact that it adds more health to the kibble.

    Hope this helps.

  • Natalie

    gordon, my younger boy is a gulper. he will just swallow without one chew. he rarely chews his kibble, he just licks it up and swallows. keep in mind he is only 8 pounds, so the kibble is not small for him. do u or anyone else know of ways to try to get him to slow down and chew a little?

  • DAWN LEDER

    THANKS GORDON FOR GETTING BACK TO ME! BOTH MY GIRLS ARE NOT GULPERS AT ALL.
    YES THAT IS SAD ABOUT THE PUPPY MILL DOGS :o *(

  • Gordon

    BTW, happy Canada Day to all Canadians.

  • Gordon

    Dawn – Have a read of the captions above each of the pics, after you click on a particular pic. If I recall, I’ve written a small summary explaining the pic. Anyway, I tie the raw bones by using black coloured electrical cable ties. You can get these from your local hardware store. Or you could use animal gut that’s made into a type of tough string, that’s also safe in tying a bone around a pole.

    But tying up raw meaty bones to something like a pole to feed a dog is really for dogs that tend to want to break the Guiness Book of Records speed-wise in gulping such raw bones before using their teeth and jaws to crunch them first. Otherwise, for normal eaters, a raw meaty bone will be crunched and eaten properly and naturally.

    Gulpers, and ‘Vacuum Cleaners’ as I like to call them, tend to originate from puppy mills where each pup fights 9 other pups in eating food from one bowl (Sad), and hence, have psychologically, been brain trained to inhale their food.

  • Michelle

    Hi Jonathan, I just saw your old post from June 5. I noticed that you said you cant afford canned food for your big dog. I have 2 large dogs, so I am always on the lookout for decent foods at a good price. Anyway, I recently found the 4health brand at Tractor Supply. Dr. Sagman rates their canned at 4.5 stars, and it is only .99 cents a can, a real bargain for such a highly rated product! I use the pate’ style and split a can between the 2 dogs mixed with a cup of the dry 4health for dinner. For their morning meal I mix their kibble with either scrambled eggs or sardines, alternating daily. For snacks/treats they love fresh fruit and veggies. Anyway, just a thought on a cheap 4.5* canned food-it could last you two days per can……….

  • Gordon

    Dawn – If you’re still on line, I promise to get back to you with hopefully, some more helpful answers to your questions later on, or in 24 hours time . I’m just doing 3 things at the same time at the moment, and it will take some thorough writing to answer your questions.

  • DAWN LEDER

    JANE I ALSO FORGOT TO SAY… THE BALANCE IS SO MUCH MORE THEN THE REG BRAVO..DO YOU USE THAT ALSO? I DO AND JUST ADD PROBIOTICS ENZYMES 200IN VIT E AND LIQUID FLAXSEED… BEEF SEEMS THEIR FAV AND LAMB AND BALANCE DOESNT HAVE LAMB..WONDER WHY? CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU PAY FOR BALANCE?? I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT..THANKS :o )

  • DAWN LEDER

    GORDON GORDON GORDON!!! I HAD NO IDEA HOW INTO RAW YOU ARE!! I LOVE IT..I JUST SAW YOUR RMBS PAGE LOVE YOUR DOGGIE….I DONT GET HOW YOU..TIE..THE MEAT AROUND THE POLE? HOW CAN YOU TIE A BONE AROUND A POLE LOL? I GIVE THE CH NECKS TO MY 8 MO OLD ALL SHE WANTS TO DO IS HIDE IT..RUNS AROUND THE HOUSE FRANTICALLY CRYING NOT BEING HAPPY WHERE SHE PUTS IT….SHE FINALLY AFTER A FEW HRS SHE ENDED UP EATING IT….MY OTHER BEAGLE NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES I GIVE HER BONES SHE WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM :o *( SHES EVEN PICKY WITH ANY FOOD SHE DOESNT LIKE ANY FOOD TOUCHING HER MOUTH..YES SHE TAKE HER FRONT TEETH AND HAS TO PICK SO DELICATELY TO GET THE FOOD IN HER??? WHAT GIVES? SHE DOES LOVE EATING THE MARROW OUT OF A BONE THOUGH AS WELL AS THE PUP BUT SHE STILL RUNS AROUND SAME WITH A BEEF MARROW BONE… IS THAT ALL YOU FEED? WHAT ELSE TO FEED IF NOT? CAN YOU TELL ME LIKE WHAT YOU DO OVER A MAYBE 3-5 DAYS? WOW IM STILL SHOCKED ABOUT YOUR PAGE LOL I SEE YOU ON ALLLL THE OTHER COMMERCIAL FOOD REVIEWS COMMENTING THERE TOO?? WHY IM WONDERING DO YOU USE CAN/KIBBLE ALSO? IF SO MAY I ASK WHAT YOU USE?? THANKS FOR THE LONSDALE VIDEO EVEN THOUGH ITS SO OLD WISH HE HAD A NEW ONE OUT…
    THANKS GORDON ILL BE CHECKING BACK FOR YOUR REPLY :o )

  • DAWN LEDER

    JANE…THANK YOU SO MUCH!! WONDER WHY THESE PLACES ARE NOT MENTIONED ON THE BRAVO WEBSITE? IM ONLY 20 MINS FROM HUNTINGTON..I WAS GETTING JUST REG BRAVO FROM SOMEONE IN HUNT…BUT THINGS WENT AWRY (SP)
    ARE ANY OF THESE ONLINE? OR WHO HAVE TO GO THERE TO GET? THANKS JANE THAT WAS NICE OF YOU!

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

    You’re welcome Cindy. I hope it works out for your dogs.

    And I forgot to give this food my praise…..”Bravo” to Bravo Balance Raw Dog Food! That had to be said. It was so inviting! This raw compilation is so simplistic, yet so ancestrally mimicking.

  • Jane

    Dawn,
    I’m on Long Island and feed both my cavaliers Bravo Balance RAW. There is a place in Huntington that carries it , Community Pet Shop, 631-421-0088. I also order it from Animal Appetites in Wantagh , 516-785-5142. In Merrick, Mutts & Butts gets it for me also 516-379-6391. It is admittedly difficult to find.

  • Cindy

    Thanks Gordon. I went out and bought some chicken necks and soup bones. Attaching them to something sounds like a good way for me to stay in control of the food and keep them from inhaling it in a frenzy. It will take some training, for me as well as them, but I am sure it will soon become a daily ritual without as much anxiety on my part. The Doctor in the video held the meaty bones in his hands but I like your ideas better. I need my fingers to type in case I need more help. lol Thanks for all the good info.

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

    I forgot to post the link referred to above in my 2nd paragraph. Here it is: http://www.rawmeatybones.com/tvVideo/todaytonight/todaytonight.html

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

    Cindy – Have a browse on pics I’ve posted on how my dogs get their raw meaty bone serves and each pic has a caption on the description above the pic when you click on a pic. My dog pic site is http://gordonscorner.letterboxes.org/doggy_techniques

    Also check out this site on a video of an old report on Dr. Tom Lonsdale, that another commenter posted before.

    Some of the raw meaty bones you could get are chicken wings, chicken necks, chicken frames, lamb briskets, lamb shanks (latter for medium to larger breed dogs) etc. The butchers are usually the best place to get these.

    Anyway, I hope the above helps.

  • Cindy

    Just starting my four precious little girls on Bravo! raw food. I am at a total loss when it comes to giving them bones. Yes, I am one of THOSE people. Bones and chews have always scared me. The Bravo site isn’t real clear about do’s and don’ts and their bones are huge. My girls are all very small; 4.5#, 5#, 7#, and 9#. My 4.5#er is a very aggressive chewer, she like to destroy everything. Does anyone have any wisdom for me that they can share? I want what is best for them and I don’t want my ignorance to get in the way of what is best. From all I’ve read bones and chews are needed for a lot of reasons. I just don’t know what kind, what size, what? Any ideas or tips would be great. Thanks! P.S. This web site is fantastic. Thanks for all the great work you do!

  • Jonathan

    Well, Dawn, as I cannot afford raw food or canned for my big dog, she gets three dry foods mixed together all the time, rotating in a new one when ever one runs out. I’ve been through several Blue products, Wellness and core, Nutro herring, right now she gets Earthborn Primitive grain free, Royal Canin Bulldog 24, and Natural Balance Organic. Next up, when the Organic is gone will be Natural Balance Alpha Dog. And when the EB is gone, I have some Life4K9. She also gets real meat scraps, fat, and canned food from time to time. And she gets Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil at every meal.

  • Dawn Leder

    The girls are on Bravo (reg formula) I give all along with it as i stated above..plus they also get aunt jeni’s..they looove and the get mORIGINS beef raw and some freeze dried raw for when i forget to defrost the raw…or just a good treat :O) The Girls (Sophie & Sabrina) looove it all..and now..stella & chewys just came out with surf & turf freeze dried..omg!! lol to watch them eat it…its like theyve never been fed lol… So all is good right now..
    Jonathan im dying to know…what food are you feeding your precious companions? :O)

  • Jonathan

    Dawn, I just checked out Aunt Jeni’s raw website, and I would estimate that it is easily a 5-star raw food. High protein, high fat, very low carbs, real ingredients. If you can afford it, then you can’t go wrong with it, so give it a try!

  • http://mymudi.blogspot.com Kim

    Hi Dawn, Sorry I have not been on the site in a while. I hope you have found some of your answers. Only one of my dogs likes the lamb. Lamb is very rich in raw form, my small female gets an upset stomach from it. I have had several rescues that had trouble with chicken kibble but did fine with raw. There are ways you can balance the bravo original. Drop me an email – agiledawgz@yahoo.com

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Dawn… Looks like an interesting raw product. I’ve now added Aunt Jeni Raw to my To Do list. However, due to our current backlog of products for review, it could be a while longer before we get to it. Thanks for the tip.

  • Dawn Leder

    MIKE I ALSO WANTED TO ASK WHY YOU HAVE NEVER REVIEWED AUNT JENI’S RAW? ITS SOOO CHEAP EASY TO ORDER AND VERY GOOD! I STOPPED USING CUZ MY OLDER BEAGLE DIDNT CARE FOR IT LIKE THE OTHER RAW FOOD…BUT IM GOING TO TRY AGAIN FOR MY 8MO OLD SABRINA. (STILL USING BRAVO AND MORIGINS TOO) I LIKE USING A VARIETY ITS GOOD TO DO. NEVER KEEP A DOG ON THE SAME THING EVERY SINGLE DAY!
    THANKS FOR LISTENING TO MY SUGGESTION (WELL…IF..YA DO THAT IS LOL)

  • Dawn Leder

    PS> Thanks Gordon how nice of you to write to me… I appreciate it VERY much! :O)

  • Dawn Leder

    helaina
    i started mine at 3 mos old…i know many many raw feeders that start their puppies at 6 weeks or after feeding from mommy :O) both my beagles are on raw…..its the best! right now im using Bravo & Morigins (Mike check out their website its awesome! the best of the best of raw food!!!)with added probiotics capsule of vit e open over the food and liquid flaxseed….(If you get the bravo “balance” you dont have to add the vit E) everyone raves how gorgeous they are..my 2 1/2 yr old gives the 8 mos old run for her money..when on can/kibble all she did was..sleeep! had no energy! mix “some” can with raw so it goes slow there its belly in the beginning eventually ending up with all raw. (ONLY GOOD can lol i used weruva (pronounced we ruv u) its the best(ike has it reviewed..theres only 2 for puppies) i buy it at k9cuisine.com because you can buy individual cans instead of buying a whole case and if they dont like it…) i still use it “IF” ive run out of raw for a day or forgot too defrost the raw one meal….. I hope Ive help some? at 3mos i also gave raw beef marrow bone they LOOOVE nibblng on it and good for their need to chew and their getting vitamins while at it) :O)
    and Happy wishes with your new puppy…what kind is it?
    Dawn
    Long Island NY

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Helaina… It depend upon the age of your puppy. Check with your dog’s vet or breeder for help. As long as this raw food meets AAFCO profiles for “growth” or “all life stages”, you should be fine.

  • Helaina

    I’m getting a Havenese puppy in four weeks.
    Can I start him on raw dog food or should it be canned first?

  • http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/ Gordon

    Dawn Leder – I’m sorry to hear that BARF prices have increased its already expensive tag. It is my favourite dog food of all time. What’s more, it’s based on the evolutionary diet of wild dogs, like no other! I’m not surprised that your dog couldn’t have enough of it. I hope you end up finding Bravo raw at a better price to suit your budget. It also looks like a great raw dog food!

  • Dawn Leder

    well….knew it was to good to be true…just like all the dozen of places say this nearby pet store of mine says they carry their product…they dont! because they carry the bravo TREATS they put themselves down that they sell bravo food. grrr ! so just picked up PRIMAL raw lamb…. which is a great raw food but My oldest has never really liked thier food..Im hoping the puppy will :O/ jealous of all of yas that get the bravo raw lol. Bye for now….

  • Dawn Leder

    HI ITS ME AGAIN LOL…ONLY 15 MINS LATER..;o)
    I CLICKED ON THE LINK YOU SENT ME KIM…AND WOW HAS THE BRAVO SITE CHANGED!!! ITS AWESOME! TONS AND TONS OF INFO NOW ABOUT 5 VIDEO’S OF ALL QUESTIONS YOU NEED ANSWERING TO AND…BEST OF ALL MY ZIP SHOWED THE STORE WE SHOP AT ALL THE TIME ONLY 2 MILES AWAY!! (HOWEVER THIS STORE HAS BEEN ON MANY MANY SITES FOR VARIOUS OTHER PRODUCTS AND WHEN I CALL THEY SAY..WE NO LONGER CARRY IT!) BUT SINCE BRAVO HAS REVAMPED EVERYTHING AND THE STORE IS NEW ON THE SITE AND..I NEVER SAW BRAVO IN THE STORE MONTHS AGO..IM ASSUMING..YES ASSUMING LOL THAT….THEY DO HAVE. ITS 6 AM NOW AND GOING NUTS NOW WAITING FOR IT TO BE TIME TO CALL THEM LOL AND HOPEFULLY THEY HAVE THE “BALANCE” BUT WILL BE HAPPY WITH THE REG I HOPE..THEY DO HAVESOME REGULAR BECAUSE I REALLY WANT THE LAMB! ALSO ALL THE SUPPLEMENTS THAT THEY SAY TO USE AND SAY THATS IN THE BALANCE I ALREADY GIVE THE GIRLS–PROBIOTICS/ENZYMES VIT E FLAXSEED OIL(THEYRE BOTH VERY ALLERGIC TO SALMON SO NO SALMON OIL) SO THANKS GUYS IM GLAD I CAME HERE TONITE..OR TODAY LOL TAKE CARE AND PLZ UPDATE HOW ALL YOU ALL ARE DOING AND MIKE THANKS FOR REVIEWING RAW..REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST CAME TO YOU? YOU DIDNT HAVE ANY RAW REVIEWS AND I BEGGED YA TO PLEASE REVIEW THEM AND YOU SAID YOU WERE JUST GETING READY TOO..NOW LOOK HOW FAR YA CAME SO MANY REVIEWS TO HELP US ALL…IM STILL DYING TO KNOW..WHAT MIKEY..LOL FEEDS “HIS” DOGGIES :o ) BUT I KNOW YOU’LL NEVER TELL.. :o ) TAKE CARE ALL!!

  • Dawn Leder

    hi everyone who wrote me back! thank you very much..I did find someone JUST ONE person LI that sells it but she 99% sells the regular..she said she can ordder the BALANCE but she doesnt go get it for 6 weeks from now!! and also the BALANCE doesnt come in lamb :O*( they get (my 2 beagle girls Sophie & Sabrina) :O) they get itchy from chicken…maybe not from the raw chicken ya think? The woman said all her customers like the reg formulas because its cheaper and she sells a container of supplements (lucky her juj ? lol) so im trying to debate waiting for the balance and HOPING the chicken and beef or turkey dont make them itch. I wonder why they make lamb in reg but not the BALANCE? kim its been awhile since i put in my zip so maybe theres more now..Hey wait lol how did you know MY zip? Long Island is very looong many many many diff zips..im curious which one did you pick? Im way out east almost by the hamptons (well not really about 1/2 hr away) I appreciate you writing back that means a lot. heading over to the website now. Keep up the gr-888 work feeding your little darlings RAW!! (although my oldest beagle 2 1/2 was on raw for 2 yrs she all of a sudden just stopped wanting it? i tried all the raw that Mike has here…no go.. ) i was so upset but i found this Outrageous canned food that I hate to say made her look healthier-not a couch potato anymore–has sooo much energy and never sheds (i also give animal essential probiotics/enzymes and liquid flaxseed) this food is awesome so i dont really feel bad shes been having it its expensive but sooo worth it (but…my puppy now 8 mos when i got her at 3 month i immediately took her off the junk the breeder had her (grrr pedigree) and gave raw….from barfworld you’d think she never ate in her life everytime she was fed!!!) but they JUST jacked up their prices that it comes with shipping 51 bucks!!! for 6lbs of it….its ridiculous!) my husband just lost his job! and even if he didnt with the prices of this world now who can afford 51 bucks for one bag of food! i feel sooo bad she loves it!! why im going to Bravo because so inexpensive….oh my gosh i wrote a novel sooo sorry mike forgive me! Thanks Bunches again (ps that canned food in weruva) Love ya’s ~Dawn~

  • Kim

    It has been almost 5 months since I changed my very sick corgi to Bravo balance. The difference is amazing. He is very healthy. I have all my dogs eating Bravo now.

  • Kim

    Hi Dawn,

    At the Bravo website they have a link to find retailers in your area. http://www.bravorawdiet.com/bravoretailers.html I put in one of the zip codes for Long Island NY and several retailers came up. Try your zip code and see if there might be some close by.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Dawn… Sometimes trying to locate a retailer that sells a particular dog food can be just as challenging as identifying the best food itself. Within the next few weeks, we’ll be adding a special “Where to Buy” directory of dog food retailers. So, you’ll soon be able to find a retailer that sells the foods you’re looking for. And you’ll be able to search by either brand or by zip and postal code.

  • DAWN LEDER

    hi
    i have been trying to find Bravo BALANCE…nobody sells it esp online! My one beagle didnt care for the reg plus like you said you have to add extra things. can i ask where everyone is finding their bravo BALANCE? I called bravo they said they dont sell it online have to get from a distributor in your area? which i dont have any….I live on Long Island in NY. i would deeply appreciate if you could tell me where you all are buying it. Thanks bunches
    Dawn

  • Cathy

    Barbara – Good for you that your lucky dogs get REAL FOOD. FYI, raw meaty bones help with dental health. Alot of detail can be found on the internet about raw meaty bones for dogs. Information by Vet Karen Becker is a good place to start.

  • Barbara

    We feed all of our show dogs and retired dogs actually all of our dogs Bravo and we love it the coats are great the eyes shine they are playful and not hyper. No gooky ears hardly any tooth issues. Our vet does not recommned raw food diets but he says our dogs are the healthiest in his practice No health issues at all.

    We tell all of our puppy buyers to ues it. You can see the difference in your dogs in a week if you go off of it or just start using it. We feed the complete version since it is easier than adding the supplements to bring the original up to speed but that is just our choice I love both products.

    Can’t be beat in my opinion!!

  • Kim

    You can go to Bravo’s website and find a retailer near you.
    http://www.bravorawdiet.com/bravoretailers.html
    Kim

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Brian… In the very near future, we’ll be adding a “Where to Buy” directory of dog food retailers. So, you’ll soon be able to find a retailer that sells the foods you’re looking for. And you’ll be able to search by either brand or by zip and postal code. Until then, you’ll need to contact the manufacturer for this information.

  • Brian

    Where do buy bravo dog food?

  • Kim

    Have just recently went to Bravo Balance, chicken and turkey (he is allergic to beef) for my corgi with coloits, IBD and hot spots. The only thing that worked before Bravo was homecooked, which was not always easy to make or get balanced. This food has been a god send, no more vet $, no steroids, no meds at all.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Chris… Darwin’s is already on my To Do list. However, due to our current backlog of products for review, it could be just a while longer before we get to it. Thanks for taking the time to send me this suggestion.

  • Chris

    Hi Mike,
    If you don’t have Darwin’s frozen raw foods on your review list can you please add it. I use their Zoologics beef, chicken or turkey, and vegetables and alternate between each flavor.
    My dogs love all flavors and their coats have all improved. I have 7 dogs including a rescue mix breed. I started feeding raw in August and by November I could tell the difference, especially in my show Havanese. Keep up the good work. I recommend your website to all my dog friends so they can compare their dog food. Thank you for your wonderful and informative website.

  • Daniela

    I accidentally hit submit too soon… I failed to mention that since I started feeding bravo it has become very easy to regulate their weight. My lhasa/bichon was extremely over weight. He lost ten pounds and is now a trim 22 lbs and looks healthy. I use a food scale to portion out their food to ensure they are getting enough so we have cut down on the over feeding and they don’t act like they are starving all the time. It is a little more work but it’s worth the extra five minutes to prepare their meals. Its a bit more expensive but the savings on vet bills alone has been huge. We now only go in for check ups and yearly blood work.

  • Daniela

    I have been feeding bravo original blend for five years and my dogs have never been healthier or more excited for meal time. They no longer have allergies, no more ear infections, eyes and coat are shiney. They are also more focused. The best part is poop patrol, their stools are tiny and solid with very little smell. With four dogs, picking up less poop is always a plus.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Mechele… Intermittent or supplemental feeding means it is not complete and balanced (per AAFCO) and is not intended to be used as the sole food in a dog’s diet. Hope this helps.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Mechele… Haven’t reviewed that product yet. Plan to eventually analyze that label, too. But our current backlog of dog foods will not allow us to get to the Original Formula product line for a while.

  • Mechele

    sorry, a few words were left out of my inquiry. it should read, why is bravo balance the only formula in your rating? what about the other formulas? do you have an opinion on the “original formula blend”? this is what i currently feed my four dogs, all different ages and breeds.

    also, if something is labeled for intermittent feeding only this means it is by no means complete and balanced and can be feed solely or ongoing? that is doesn’t meet aafco standards?

  • Mechele

    why bravo balance the only formula shown in your rating. what about the formula? do you have an opinion on the original formula blend?

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Joan… I wouldn’t think a quality raw food would cause any problems. But since I’m not a veterinarian it would be misleading for me to assure you feeding a specific dog food would result in specific benefits for your dog’s health condition. Sorry I can’t be more help.

  • joan sandler

    can a raw diet be fed to a dog with bladder problems?