Blue Buffalo Life Protection (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★★☆

Blue Buffalo Life Protection Dog Food earns the Advisor’s second-highest tier rating of 4 stars.

The Blue Buffalo Life Protection Dog Food product line includes 23 dry recipes, four claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for growth (puppies) and 19 for adult maintenance.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Blue Buffalo Lamb and Oatmeal Puppy
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Fish and Oatmeal Large Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Lamb and Brown Rice Senior (2 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Lamb and Brown Rice Adult (3.5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Fish and Sweet Potato Adult (3.5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Fish and Brown Rice Small Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Lamb and Brown Rice Small Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Senior (2 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Small Bite Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Toy Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight Chicken Small Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Puppy (4.5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Small Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Large Breed Adult
  • Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight Chicken and Brown Rice (3 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Lamb and Brown Rice Large Breed Adult (3 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Oatmeal Small Breed Puppy (5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Small Bite Senior (2 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Healthy Weight Chicken Large Breed Adult (3.5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Small Breed Senior (3.5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Large Breed Senior (3.5 stars)
  • Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Large Breed Puppy (4.5 stars)

Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Small Bite Adult recipe was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice Small Bite Adult

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 27% | Fat = 16% | Carbs = 50%

Ingredients: Deboned chicken, chicken meal, brown rice, barley, oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), tomato pomace (source of lycopene), peas, flaxseed (source of omega 3 and 6 fatty acids), natural flavor, potatoes, alfalfa meal, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, potato starch, dried chicory root, dl-methionine, caramel, mixed tocopherols (a natural preservative), sweet potatoes, carrots, garlic, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, iron amino acid chelate, zinc amino acid chelate, zinc sulfate, Yucca schidigera extract, oil of rosemary, l-lysine, parsley, kelp, blueberries, cranberries, apples, spinach, blackberries, pomegranate, pumpkin, barley grass, turmeric, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), copper sulfate, copper amino acid chelate, glucosamine hydrochloride, nicotinic acid (vitamin B3), calcium pantothenate (vitamin B5), taurine, biotin (vitamin B7), manganese sulfate, vitamin A supplement, manganese amino acid chelate, l-carnitine, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), beta carotene, dried yeast, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, folic acid (vitamin B9), calcium iodate, sodium selenite

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 5.6%

Red items indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis24%14%NA
Dry Matter Basis27%16%50%
Calorie Weighted Basis23%33%44%
Protein = 23% | Fat = 33% | Carbs = 44%

The first ingredient in this dog food is chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The second ingredient is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The third ingredient is brown rice, a complex carbohydrate that (once cooked) can be fairly easy to digest. However, aside from its natural energy content, rice is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The fourth ingredient is barley. Barley is a starchy carbohydrate supplying fiber and other healthy nutrients. However, aside from its energy content, this cereal grain is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The fifth ingredient is oatmeal, a whole-grain product made from coarsely ground oats. Oatmeal is naturally rich in B-vitamins, dietary fiber and can be (depending upon its level of purity) gluten-free.

The sixth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The seventh ingredient is tomato pomace. Tomato pomace is a controversial ingredient, a by-product remaining after processing tomatoes into juice, soup and ketchup.

Many praise tomato pomace for its high fiber and nutrient content, while others scorn it as an inexpensive pet food filler.

Just the same, there’s probably not enough tomato pomace here to make much of a difference.

The eighth ingredient includes peas. Peas are a quality source of carbohydrates. And like all legumes, they’re rich in natural fiber.

However, peas contain about 25% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the meat content of this dog food.

The ninth ingredient is flaxseed, one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With six notable exceptions

First, this food includes alfalfa meal. Although alfalfa meal is high in plant protein (about 18%) and fiber (25%), this hay-family item is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

Next, chicory root is rich in inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

In addition, caramel is a natural coloring agent made by caramelizing carbohydrates. It’s used by pet food manufacturers to impart a golden brown tint to the finished product.

However, the concentrated version of this ingredient commonly known as caramel coloring has been more recently considered controversial and found to cause cancer in laboratory animals.1

In any case, even though caramel is considered safe by the FDA, we’re always disappointed to find any added coloring in a pet food.

That’s because coloring is used to make the product more appealing to humans — not your dog. After all, do you really think your dog cares what color his food is?

Next, garlic can be a controversial item. Although many favor the ingredient for its claimed health benefits, garlic has been linked to Heinz body anemia in dogs.2

So, one must weigh the potential benefits of feeding garlic against its proven tendency to cause subclinical damage to the red blood cells of the animal.

In addition, dried yeast can be a controversial item. Dried yeast contains about 45% protein and is rich in other healthy nutrients.

Fans believe yeast repels fleas and supports the immune system.

Critics argue yeast ingredients can be linked to allergies. This may be true, but (like all allergies) only if your particular dog is allergic to the yeast itself.

What’s more, a vocal minority insist yeast can increase the risk of developing the life-threatening condition known as bloat. However, this is something we’ve not been able to scientifically verify.

In any case, unless your dog is specifically allergic to it, we feel yeast should be considered a nutritious addition.

And lastly, this food contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Blue Buffalo Life Protection Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Blue Buffalo Life Protection Dog Food looks like an above-average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 27%, a fat level of 16% and estimated carbohydrates of about 50%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 26% and a mean fat level of 14%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 52% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 53%.

Near-average protein. Below-average fat. And above-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

When you consider the protein-boosting effect of the flaxseed, peas, alfalfa meal and dried yeast, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a moderate amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Blue Buffalo Life Protection is a plant-based dry dog food using a moderate amount of chicken, turkey or fish meals as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 4 stars.

Highly recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

The Dog Food Advisor does not test dog food products.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every review is directly dependent upon the quality of the test results from any specific batch of food a company chooses to publish.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

However, we do receive a fee from Chewy.com for each purchase made as a direct result of a referral from our website. This fee is a fixed dollar amount and has nothing to do with the size of an order or the brand selected for purchase.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

04/09/2015 Last Update

  1. Consumer Reports February 2014
  2. Yamato et al, Heinz Body hemolytic anemia with eccentrocytosis from ingestion of Chinese chive (Allium tuberosum) and garlic (Allium sativum) in a dog, Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 41:68-73 (2005)
  • Rain Barreras

    Mmm okay thank u

  • Pitlove

    yes you would aim for a food that states “large puppy”

  • InkedMarie

    I’m not Pitlove but I wouldn’t feed either food.

  • Lisa

    Hey Pitlove,
    R U an your boyfriend and bentley and the other dog and a cat or two still livin in one room above your boyfriends mothers garage?
    You shold br very proud of yourself Fukkin loser 🙂

  • LabsRawesome

    If you want a large breed puppy food that is formulated with the correct amount of calcium, pick one from the list I provided to you. Blue Buffalo is expensive for what you are getting, it’s not worth it, and it’s not on the list.

  • Rain Barreras

    I seen today at pets mart and they had puppy and large puppy…

  • Pitlove

    Foods that specifically say “large breed puppy” on the bag are usually, but not always, formulated with proper levels of calcium to make sure the large breed puppy doesn’t grow too fast. That is the biggest concern with these big guys. They grow too fast and their bones do not grow correctly and they end up with growth disorders.

  • Rain Barreras

    How ?? I never knew a bigger breed of dog and being a puppy requires more special things?

  • Rain Barreras

    I never thought it mattered….. I seen many things with large breed on it and others like kibbles and bits has a bag that says Small breed and the rest are for big dogs. I mean it has a big breed on the cover as well xD i thought it was for any dog.. Breed…

  • LabsRawesome

    Okay, here’s some foods that are on the large breed puppy list. Earthborn Meadow Feast, Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain (Costco) Dr. Tim’s grain free Kensis,

  • Pitlove

    Basically, Both Purina and Blue have their good points and their faults. Purina is backed by science and research and some of their higher end lines do not contain ingredients like sugar, propylene glycol, artificial food colorings.

    Blue however, is priced very high for what it is and lately because of the lawsuit people have come to distrust Blue as a company. Also it does not bode well for Blue when the CEO is quoted as saying “Slap on a good label, come up with a slogan, and off you go.” in regards to his philosophy on making dog food.

    The main thing with whichever brand you choose is that you choose a food meant for a large breed puppy within the company. Purina makes a few large breed formulas and so does Blue.

  • Rain Barreras

    Yeah just i want anything thats natural… Im sick of the Preservatives and Bone meal all that fakeness

  • Rain Barreras

    I just wanna know if BB is better.. Cuz as i am seeing its as bad as…Purina Beneful

  • InkedMarie

    Kibble so & Bits and Ol Roy are both pretty horrible foods. Look at the review of them here on DFA

  • Pitlove

    Alright, so are you looking for recommendations for your puppy or have you settled on Kibbles N’ Bits?

  • Rain Barreras

    Yeah well my brother had a blue nosed razor edge pit bull and he fed him ole roy then kibbles and bits all his life and my puppy im talking about is a Pitbull/Wolf Mix

  • Pitlove

    Hi Rain-

    Kibbles N’Bits would not be recommended for a large breed puppy. Honestly, I would avoid it even for an adult dog.

    Is budget a concern for you? I assume not as much since you are looking at Blue. I can try to make some recommendations based on budget if you’d like.

  • Rain Barreras

    Well his breed is gonna be large. So….i just dont know

  • LabsRawesome

    A large breed puppy has special dietary needs. You have to be careful what you feed. Some puppy foods are not formulated for Large breeds. This is a list created by one of the regulars on this site. She called manufactures and got the as fed calcium percentages. Most of the foods on this list are All Life Stages that just means they can be fed to puppies and adults. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit?pref=2&pli=1

  • Rain Barreras

    .. Well…. Im new here i never tryed BB but i did the dog food comparison that BB Offers and i seen some fake crap in my dogs food :/ i fed my dogs Purina Beneful and had so much issues and horrible reviews so i switched to Kibbles And Bits and when i compared it to BB i seen so much difference i want a more natural food since i just got a new puppy…. Hes gonna be a big boy because of his breed… But im stuck… My sister in law fed her dogs KAB for years and she said they lived tilll 20+Years thought she said 25 but i dont remember and seeing all these comments about dogs having bad Poop problems D: and stuff… I dont want it to be like Beneful and in the long run be horrible for my dogs and puppy..

  • mandy&gavin

    This is interesting. Please take a look at the note below.

    Fromm Classic (3 star) ingredients: Chicken, chicken meal, brown rice, barley, oatmeal, white rice, Menhaden fish meal, dried whole egg…

    Blue Buffalo LP Chicken & Rice (4 star) ingredients: Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Barley, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat, Tomato Pomace, Peas.

    The first five ingredients in the dog foods are identical. In the first eight ingredients Fromm contains protein from 4 animal ingredients and no plant ingredients while Blue Buffalo contains protein from 2 animal ingredients and 1 plant ingredient.

    The inferior (Fromm Classic) seems to be superior to the 4 star Blue Buffalo Life Protection Chicken & Rice formula based on the majority of what both dog foods are made of.

    Fromm is a family owned company headquartered and manufactured in Wisconsin.

    Blue Buffalo is publicly owned (NASDAQ: BUFF) headquartered in Wilton, Connecticut and manufactured in Joplin, MO.

  • Lanie Malvit

    DON’T BUY THIS FOOD! IF YOUR LOOKING FOR GOOD FOOD, CHECK OUT ROYAL CANIN, IT WAS ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER BY VETS, TESTED BY VETS, AND APPROVED BY VETS, ITS SIMPLY THE BEST FOOD FOR DOGS ON EARTH

  • Salty2

    Blue Buffalo should be rated -0- with all the recalls!! Ugh!

  • Crazy4cats

    I would think so, but I haven’t kept up with them. There are a lot of other four and five star foods that are a better value, in my opinion. Which recipe were you going to feed?

    I have to know if that is your pup in your avatar. It is soooo cute!

  • gigmac

    Does anyone know if Blue Buffalo has changed its methods of dog food production as a result of these expensive lawsuits? I wanted to use it, but after reading this forum, I’m not so sure anymore. Thanks for any help in advance. gg

  • Suzi Leeman

    I switched my Golden ti Blue Buffalo after condirming that my other Golden had died of kidney failure at less than three years old, directly due to her having been fed Beneful!!
    My current Golden loved BB, that is, UP UNTIL about 2-3 months ago! Now she will not eat it!
    So since 2-3 months ago i have been feeding her Fromm’s! It has high grade ingredients, is not outrageously expensive, but is very much liked by my Bella!!
    I am VERY careful what i feed my Bella, as she has a sensitive digestive sysyem. She is the first Golden i have owned that has this issue. So far i am very impressed by Fromm’s.
    I will NEVER EVER AGAIN buy ANY Purina product. I, in fact, am part of the class action lawsuit against Purina, regarding their Beneful dry dog food. It KILLED my little Annie, and i am DISGUSTED by Purina not taking responsibility or even showing ONE OUNCE of compassion.
    I think personally, that something has changed with the BB brand dog food.

  • mahoraner niall

    has anyone heard about their new prescription food?
    i know their food is bad, but if i had to put my dog on a prescription food (emphasis on had) i would definitely choose blue buffalo prescription diet over royal canin, purina, iams, and proplan

  • Bella’s Mom

    Does anyone know if Blue Buffalo has changed the formula of their food recently? Specifically for the Chicken and Rice Large Breed formula? I’ve been feeding this to my dogs for years (I swear Lisa whoever if you tell me not to I’m gonna not hold back with what I think of you) and I’ve always fed them 2 1/4 cups per day. Their healthy weight is 60 pounds, and I KNOW when I started feeding them this, that was the recommended serving. Now on the bag it says for a 50-70 pound dog the recommended serving is 3 1/2 to 4 cups daily. My golden has been losing weight (which I didn’t mind because she was overweight) and has been lethargic (which I attributed to being an older dog and having arthritis). Now I am wondering if I am simply starving my poor dog. The food appearance hasn’t changed, the price per bag hasn’t changed, but I’m wondering if they simply are producing food with a lower nutrition content to make up for all the recent bad press. I don’t have any problems with the food, my dogs have done very well on it, but if I have to pay the same price but feed them double, then I do have a problem. I have googled this but I can’t find anything helpful. If anyone has any FACTS (not opinions) on this, I’d appreciate the information.

  • LabsRawesome

    Agree. Blue is way overpriced for what it is.

  • theBCnut

    Blue Buffalo was bashing Purina in all their ads for having by-products in their food while BB had by-products in their food. That’s supposedly why Purina sued. In the end, it’s still all about the money. Personally, I think it’s stupid that BB keeps comparing themselves to Purina. They are in the same league. That’s like a professional baseball player comparing themselves to a Little Leaguer. Stupid and meaningless. Actually, sort of a bully tactic. They don’t stack up all that great against foods that are at a similar level, but they don’t want anyone to know that.

  • mahoraner niall

    the thing i dont get about purinas lawsuit against blue buffalo, is that i thought that purina believe’s that by-products and artificial preservatives are “high quality” (based on their newer beneful and dog chow commercials featuring their “real” workers)

    Purina is just plain hypocritical

    trying to make another company look worse than they are so they lookk like the “innocent and honest” ones

    Whether they are honest about their ingredients or not, purina food is nothing better than blue bufflo

    i know this company’s bad, but definitely not as bad as purina!!

  • Alyssa

    I switched my Pomeranian puppy over to blue buffalo life protection puppy, small breed, and she seemed to really like it for the first month. Lately, however, something has changed. She doesn’t want to get near it and when she does, she has constant diarrhea, wakes up frequently to have to go out, and has even gone uncontrollably on the floor on one occasion (which is highly unusual for her at this point). After she clearly wasn’t feeling well I started giving her bland foods to help her stomach, chicken and rice, and everything started regulating over the course of a week. I started transitioning her back into the life protection food and again, we’ve been up all hours of the night with her diarrhea again. I’ve just started coming across multiple consumer affairs reports and what I’m reading sounds similar to what we are experiencing. There are cases I’m seeing of some furry friends dying (which may or may not be linked to the food….) but I’m not willing to take the risk. I don’t recommend this food to any pet owners without fully doing research about it. As a final disclaimer–My dog does have a sensitive stomach as well, which might contribute to her reaction to this food, but I’ll be looking to a different brand now to feed my pup. Not worth the risk.

  • Tim

    This is the first dog food that my dog absolutely will not eat. He would rather go hungry.

  • Celeste Mayer

    **Update February 20, 2016**

    Customers can finally reclaim their portion of the $32 million dollar
    settlement from the class action lawsuit against Blue Buffalo for false
    advertising.

  • Crazy4cats

    Hi Sam-
    My two lab mix dogs do very well on WEF. I do, however add a little something to all their meals. It makes me feel like I’m making their meals not only a little less processed and more healthy, but yummier also. In the mornings they get a few spoonfuls of canned and in the afternoon, they get an egg and tripe or a little raw, or sardines. I also add a splash warm water. Best of luck to you! You want to make meal time a positive thing! I know it’s stressful if they don’t eat.

  • Pitlove

    Hi Sam-

    When I got one of my dogs at 12 weeks old I had him on Blue Wilderness. The breeder he came from had him on Puppy Chow as well. My boy never did like Blue either. Perhaps it does not have good palatability?

    I definitely agree that force feeding your dog is not the right approach. Especially during puppyhood, you can create a negative association between your dog and yourself and your dog and his food when you act angry and aggressive with them.

    Do not attempt homecooked without the guidence of a board certified veterinary nutritionist. Especially not for a growing puppy.

  • Sam G

    I thought blue buffalo was a good brand…which is why i started him off on it…and kinda forced him to eat thinking hes just being stubborn cause i wont let him eat purina puppy chow (thats wat he was on before i got him) but since hes devouring other home cooked food i researched online and its apparent blue isnt sucha great company. I just ordered WEF.. if that doesnt work out either i might look into homecooked.

  • Sam G

    yeah, ill ask the vet when i go in for the booster shots. yup thats wat im planning to do…if the WEF doesnt work out..ill do some research on homemade stuff…thank you 🙂

  • InkedMarie

    please don’t stuff food in his mouth; buy a better food for your pup.

  • JeremyScott10

    Good to hear he’s ok.
    He’s still a puppy so I’d stay with puppy food or all stages for now, and ask vet when to transition.
    Really, the healthiest diet is homemade as long as you balance it with a premix. I cook for mine sometimes, and she loves Dr. Harveys fine ground premix. I add water, let it soak and add the protein and oil.
    http://www.chewy.com/dog/dr-harveys-veg-to-bowl-fine-ground/dp/47350

    Here’s more info on premixes.
    http://www.dogaware.com/diet/dogfoodmixes.html

  • Sam G

    Thank you for all the information. Ill check it out. Yup hes been to the vet and got the ok. Shes the one who suggested me to cut out the treats so he will eventually eat but nope…if i force feed him like 1 or 2 pieces he used to eat about 1/2 a cup a day hardly (hes supposed to eat a cup) but lately its gotten bad…he will rather starve than eat so ive been feeding him egg n rice or boiled chicken n rice and he devours it. So its definitely the food..so i just ordered the Whole earth farms no grain food…lets see hopefully he likes it if not gotta try other brands u mentioned. Thanks again
    One quick q…is it too early (at 6 months) to change from puppy to adult food? the whole earth farms is all life stages so im not worried but the other brands have the distinction..so i was just wondering if its too early? he looks perfect for his frame so i want to say hes his adult size but i cant be sure

  • JeremyScott10

    Hi Sam, there is a range of sizes even within the same breed so 14 pounds could be perfect for his frame.

    I’d be concerned about his appetite, and would consider switching to a healthier food he might like. I’ve got a picky eater but she loves Wellness Trufood (it’s baked so it’s healthier than regular kibble), Wellness Core, Ziwi Peak, Real Meat Food Co, Weruva canned and a variety of the freeze dried and dehydrated foods (add water to them). I add enzymes and probiotics to keep her healthy and avoid stomach upset.

    A rotational diet is healthiest, with some human food as toppers. Changing it up also keeps picky eaters interested in eating. Always buy the smallest bags and once bag is opened discard after approximately one month b/c food goes rancid. Here are some good websites that might help.
    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/feeding-fresh-food-to-dogs/
    http://www.dogaware.com/diet/freshfoods.html

    Wysong makes supplements you can sprinkle on food to make food more palatable and nutritious. One of the articles suggests giving bones but I’m afraid to give them to my small dog so I give natural bully twists instead. They’re great for teething.

    Has he been to the vet to determine if puppy is ok?

  • Sam G

    Hi i have a shichon 6 month old on blue buffalo and HATES it and im talking he would put it in and spit it out..somedays i used to literally stuff it into his mouth cause he would go like 2 days without eating (i stopped treats hoping he would get hungry and eat but nope) anyway my Q is my shichon is 6 months and hes 14 pounds is that normal? he was kind of a rescue but i bought him…its really a long story anyway i know nothing about the parents..i just want to know if 14 pounds is normal..i thought shichon ( teddy bear dogs) are usually very small?

  • Pitlove

    Why are you spamming this to me? I don’t feed Blue Buffalo.

  • Amateria

    If you have something to say about it just say it within one whole writing there’s really no need to spam your comments.

    Yes they lied but dogs are dying on all sorts of food and for all sorts of reasons nothing we can really do about it, I mean yeah we can feed better food but I’ve read plenty of stories of people feeding raw and their dogs are still dying young its all genetics, sometimes you just get the short stick and its awful it really is loosing our 12 year old to heart failure was the most awful thing I’ve ever had to go through, even worse than my pudendal nerve compression but that is sadly life and although we may hate it we can’t change it.

  • Lisa Strickler

    really?? he lied!? you are taking to the research queen. They killed my 4 year old dog. they have lost 4 $34 million dollar law suits.. they paid,, excuse me… they found road kill…filled with all the wheats and corns and poison toxins…………if you read the hundreds of testimonies… those young dogs suffered just like my sally girl. I trust and I flippen paid the expense because they were the best. I trusted them. they lied and cheated for money. they played on the hearts of dear devoted animal lovers. .. I am going to fight .in the name of sally

  • Lisa Strickler

    thank god! pass the word.. they killed my 4 year old best friend

  • Lisa Strickler

    read my post above. STop BB now! it will kill your dog as it did mine

  • Lisa Strickler

    STop now! BB killed my dog and hundreds of others. they have been sued and still are for poisoning out dogs see my post above

  • Lisa Strickler

    PLease read my testimony above. what ever you do.. do not feed BB chicken. look it up they are under many law suits. they killed my dog

  • Lisa Strickler

    If you are talking about Blue Buffello (I posted 3/4/16) it’s because they lye, lye, lye.. they do not put the high quality or any quality into their chicken. you will die if you feed it the BB chicken

  • Lisa Strickler

    Oh boy, do I have something to say about blue buffalo. plain and simple they lied and printed false ingredients on their labels…charging me $57 for a 30 pound bag of dry food. The chicken is the killer. yes, you heard me KILLER. I researched and chose Blue Buffalo (BB) 4 years ago..that is when my sally girl, my best friend, my muse started eating BB. she was sickly on and off. I would change up to different flavors and she would be fine. Then I would bring back the chicken and she refused to eat it… I then would get wet food to get her to eat it..I helped kill her slowly, painfully with Blue Buffalo. thousands of dollars to the vet and they couldn’t figure out why she was throwing up daily, diarrhea, mood changes, exhaustion. 2 months ago I laid spooning my baby as I had to put her 4 year old self down still not knowing what was wrong. It wasn’t until 3/2/16 that I got a law action suit suing BB.stating their labels were false, their food carried all kinds of meals, road kill and many toxic chemicals. When I read the testimonies of the others…. their dogs died from 8 weeks to 4 years old.. a slow, painful, disgusting death. All the same symptoms.My sally died on Jan 1 2016… she blew up like a goat and fluid poured out of her.her stomach burst and intestines opened… if you touched her she cried…. as she died nestled in my arms… I said to her that I loved you and I was sorry… I had no Idea how sorry. I loath those people. corporate… playing on animal lovers hearts. I am suing but I dont care about the money…. I’m doing this for name of Sally… Stay away from Blue Buffello… if you have something to say me… I am Lisa Strickler and you can contact me at [email protected]………..please pass the word
    ps. in 2015 they (BB) lost 3 34 million dollar suits..

  • losul
  • losul

    Billy Bennet, I offered up a very humble apology (below), even though I knew I wasn’t lying, but just wanted closure. I never got it though. It weighed on my mind a huge deal to be called out as a liar such as you did, I went to alot of trouble to attempt to figure out what happened. I already checked into this many months ago, after you accused me, but I said nothing more, because I did NOT want to reopen anything again, I may have been confused a little at the time, but I was certainly NOT lying.

    There was a Petfood Industry article dated October 24, 2008. titled

    “NRC publishes new report on supplement safety”

    http://www.petfoodindustry.com/articles/59-nrc-publishes-new-report-on-supplement-safety

    that article was where I got the first summary I presented, and this summary was from 2008. It’s linked in the above article.

    http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/materials-based-on-reports/reports-in-brief/satety_of_dietary_supplements_final.pdf

    There was a later Petfood Industry article dated February 12 2014, and titled “Online Extra! NASC and supplement safety” some of the content;

    “Read the National Animal Supplement Council’s full response to the new report on supplement safety”.

    “The full report will be available next month; however, a 4-page report brief and an executive summary prepared by the National Research Council based on the committee’s full report are now available.”

    http://www.petfoodindustry.com/articles/449-online-extra-nasc-and-supplement-safety

    I think because of that I article, I believe I went to the NAP site,, read something I thought was newer, an executive summary, whether it was newer or not, I didn’t see much difference in the summary and didn’t pursue it further at the time.

    If you still can’t accept how things may have transpired, I don’t know what else too tell you, that’s the best I can do for you. I’ll let my apology stand, but I don’t think what I said ever even came anywhere near close to bothering anyone but you and Ann G at all. If you happen to know Ann G, would you let her know, or she might miss my reply.

  • Fran

    Interestingly, when I inquired during my dispute with them where the food was made, they wouldn’t tell me.

  • Caton Susan
  • Hater & Molly’s Mom

    Not touching it either. He is posting it all over the place on here.

  • LabsRawesome

    I’m not clicking on a link that says scheme dog food advisor. lol

  • Brown Wolf

    I had to go back to Evolve/Salmon and Sweet Potato. Blue Buffalo made her nose allergies worse, so bad that I had to take her to the vet. She has hyperkeratosis on the nose and one morning her nose looked like it had exploded. Vet had to give her antibiotics. Evolve/S and SP seems to work much better.

  • Meister

    You should do your homework and read the transcript of the ‘doctor’ purina hired to do the tests, he lied through his teeth to them and deceived them. Go down to page 87 to have a good laugh https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/265926641?access_key=key-Dicpu7fQNdkkh56ZB6CT&allow_share=true&escape=false&show_recommendations=false&view_mode=scroll

  • Meister

    You should read the transcript of the ‘doctor’ purina hired to do the tests, he lied through his teeth to them and deceived them. Go down to page 87 to have a good laugh https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/265926641?access_key=key-Dicpu7fQNdkkh56ZB6CT&allow_share=true&escape=false&show_recommendations=false&view_mode=scroll

  • Meister

    BB Fish and sweet potato still has grains and chicken fat so if you don’t know what your dog is allergic to then giving him this isn’t a good idea. Trying BB basics grain free at least cuts out grains and chicken and you should see results in about 4 weeks if he is allergic to either of these.

  • sd

    I did the same thing trying BB because my dog has allergies. It did not help at all. I am now switching to Merrick because it has less ingredients. So far so good

  • sd

    I tried BB for about a month with my golden retriever, but I found it was causing allergies. Now reading this review, I wish I had seen earlier that it has yeast and garlic in it. Why do they have to put these things in? We have just switched to Merrick dog food. That dog food has less ingredients, more protein, and 5 stars from the dogfoodadvisor. He loves it so far.

  • theBCnut

    My vet believes that she has had some dogs affected by getting too high a concentration of Life Bits.

  • Ken Thompson

    One thing I noticed with our dogs eating the Life Protection is that they at times overlooked the life bits . Also, in some of the bags we got, the life bits were not evenly mixed in the bag. Does that mean that the nutrient from the life bits are not being eaten every day in the same amount?
    Unfortunately, over the past years, our rescue dogs fed on Buffalo did not live past 11. They were on the senior chicken and rice. I don’t know what they were fed before they went into rescue and their health issues probably were not related to food. (quick developing cancer).
    Anyway, I think I will try another brand for our new rescue who is younger and more active. Losing three dogs in 15 months is difficult and hard not to blame the food they had in common.

  • Brown Wolf

    Blue Buffalo Fish and Sweet Potato Adult (3.5 stars)
    I just bought my dog this kind. I hope it helps her allergies and digestion.

  • Sloppy Joe

    I too switched my dog off of Blue Buffalo lamb and brown rice after that law suit came out. When you’re paying for a premium food, I expect to get what I pay for. I switched him to Berkely Jensen from BJ’s and it has a higher rating too than the BB I was giving him.

  • http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/frequently-asked-questions/rate-dog-food/

    It’s most likely to have a lower rating due to its protein content. The article above tells how dog food is rated on this website. Lamb isn’t automatically considered higher quality.

  • mahoraner niall

    how come the large breed lamb and brown rice in lower rated than the chicken large breed one? isn’t lamb higher quality?

  • Jessica

    I started feeding Blue about a month ago after switching from Purina. When I mixed the foods to transition, my dog started sorting out his food, putting the Purina on the floor and only eating Blue. He’d eat that little bit then sit and look at me to give him more. I like this food because of the Omega-3’s and other supplements/nutrients that Blue claims are added to it in addition to what I would consider a healthy balance of meat, plant, and grain for dogs. My dog loves the taste and it seems to have aided in his digestion. He’s a young dog, so he’s otherwise very healthy and I haven’t seen a change in that. In addition to the dog food content, the customer service with Blue is exceptionally friendly. I contacted them thanking them for their work and letting them know my dog loves the food, and they sent me a hand written thank you letter for my email along with a free, full bag of Blue training treats to help train my new dog. I, personally, am very impressed.

  • aquariangt

    Few things there: One, if your dog isn’t used to transition, that can be tough. Think about if you ate a very restricted diet and then suddenly incorporated some rich foods into it, you’d have digestive upset as well. I transition cold turkey every bag, but my dogs are very used to a rotational diet. Maybe try some Perfect Form or Probiotics to assist in your transition.
    There could be something (maybe chicken) in BB that’s bugging him.
    You also may want to try a transitional food. I don’t particularly think Blue is great, but it’s still far more nutrient dense food than Beneful. That is often the trouble with weight gain when switching foods-you are feeding a lot more calories if you’re feeding the same amount. I’d try Precise Foundations to transition him

  • Pitlove

    Hi Lauren- I would absolutely not put him back on Beneful. However, there is a possibility that your dog is having a reaction to something in Blue Buffalo.

    Read the ingredient panel of the Blue formula you fed and try to find a food that does not contain any of those ingredients and see if there is an improvement.

    You may also want to see a dermatologist that can do a consulation with you and an exam of your dogs skin to better access whether its food related or not. Your vet might be able to recommend one.

  • Hi. I have a shihapoo – I did have him on Beneful. I switched over to BB because of everything they were coming out with on Beneful. Since I have switch he has huge dry patches on his back. He scratches them and they bleed. Has anyone had this problem. He also gained 3 lbs within 2 months. The vet told me to put him back on the Beneful. BB is not working out for him. – Any suggustions?

  • M.E.W.

    I fed my 11-yr-old doxie Blue Buffalo Life Protection Healthy Weight for six years until it just didn’t agree with her anymore. In the past few months she began vomiting pretty frequently, usually in the early morning. It got worse for about a week or so before I switched her to grain-free Wellness Core Reduced Fat. For the past three weeks on the new food there has been absolutely no vomiting. My sister also has a basset hound that vomited frequently until switched to grain-free. I looked at BB’s grain-free food but I didn’t like their use of tapioca starch, not to mention all the news about BB mislabeling their foods (and doing nothing to compensate all the consumers who paid higher prices for their so-called premium food). I’m afraid that BB is becoming too big of a brand and thus the quality of the food will suffer. My PetSmart literally has two aisles filled with BB products. I’m staying away from BB. Wellness seems to be a great brand and is still affordable. Next I’ll try Simply Nourish. Both are easily available at PetSmart.

  • Pitlove

    The reviews are based on ingredients only and not the integrity or transparency of the company, so that information will not show up in the review. However, many people are aware of their issues now.

  • crystalb

    Need to update this with the latest information about how they admitted to deceiving people for a long time over their ingredients. I’ll never feed any Blue Buffalo again!

  • Skye G

    I fed my dog the BB puppy formula for a while when she was young. I had no major complaints. Not a bad food.

  • losul the liar

    Losuls credibility is the only thing that got shot down. Now everybody knows Losuls a LIAR ;>)

    This guy said it best

    “Your understanding seems quite limited, despite your obvious
    attempt to appear erudite and knowledgeable”

    “Your attempt to negate the entire
    substance of a detailed and comprehensive argument, is evidence of a
    singleminded intention to disrupt and vilify rather than intelligently
    discuss opposing ideas”

    “Nothing wrong with opposing ideas but to attempt
    to negate the whole argument by attacking just one small part of it
    with a fallacious, but loud, argument reveals intention of a veiled
    attack rather than an interest in understanding or sharing ideas.”

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/dogfoodadvisor/brothers_complete_grain_free_dry/#comment-755961042

  • aimee

    In the “Report in brief” there is table listing HSI and PSI in mg/kg and the three species; dogs cats and horses.

    I would expect that the same form of garlic is the basis for all of those numbers across all species otherwise it should be specified.

    The summary reported a level of 15 mg/kg dried garlic powder in horses as unlikely to cause an adverse effect when fed on a long term basis.

    Since the number of 15 mg/kg is the number reported as the HSI in the table of the brief. I believe it to be the same form. In which case then all the numbers in the table should be based on dried garlic.

    Shawna wrote “The loss isn’t going to be to healthy red blood cells but rather to those ready to die anyway”

    and I responded “I think I understand where this is coming from “The loss isn’t going to
    be to healthy red blood cells but rather to those ready to die anyway.”
    but will you explain the mechanism behind this for me”

    I understood the physiology that older cells are more susceptible to oxidative challenge and thought she might be misapplying that information. This is why I said “I think I understand where this is coming from”. But to give her the benefit of the doubt I asked her to explain the mechanism behind her statement in case there was some different reason she had for making that statement.

  • aimee

    Not sure why the shortened turnover in greyhounds. perhaps genetic selection plays a role.

    When I made the comment about a person vomiting before ingesting enough garlic to cause anemia I was thinking in terms of a one time exposure. But I ‘d agree that smaller frequent exposures could result in anemia.

  • losul

    are you trying to “combine” summaries? What do you mean by “chart form”

    I don’t know why you would choose to use horses, HSI, and garlic powder? When we are talking about dogs, the words garlic powder, garlic oil, and the PSI under dogs in the summary, and I don’t see the dog HSI form of garlic supplement in the summary defined.

    Thanks for showing how you calculated equivalent powder to whole raw garlic.I’ll probaly calcualte it myself later when I get time, and will try to figure out how to calculate a garlic oil to raw whole garlic equivalent.

    ———————————————————

    You didn’t accept it as “basic physiology” until Shawna linked what you kept insisting she provide as proof . In fact I took it that you completely rejected the assertion until then. I can’t speak for Shawna, but somewhere I miss something where necessarily “she lept from that to her conclusion that they are the only cells affected.”

  • losul

    Aimee, I can’t say without my further looking back why those numbers (30-60) seem to have stuck in my mind. Somewhere down the line while researching garlic, somethings must’ve given me that impression, even if is a mostly false impression. I
    never before specifically researched a dog’s RBC turnover rate, and obviously what you presented is the more accurate. Probably there’s someone(s) who wants to make out
    some kind of devious intent in that also, but whatever….after all that before, I’m not sure how much I even care anymore.

    I can go with about 110 days RBC turnover for most dogs, (the median between the two research studies you presented) Hopefully the 110 number will now stick in my mind. I don’t think a 110 day figure changes the point I was trying to make.

    I did find it interesting in one of the research papers you presented;
    “non greyhound rbc lifespan was measured at 104.3 +/- .2.2 days, greyhounds were much shorter at 53.6 +/- 6.5 days.”
    I take that to mean that most breeds of dogs RBC lifespan is at 102 – 106.5 days, while greyhounds’ RBC lifespans are significantly shorter at 47 – 61 days.

    I was wondering if that has something to do with higher activity levels in
    greyhounds.

    I found the research paper titled;

    “Exercise, training and red blood cell turnover.”

    and in that paper;

    “Cycling, running and swimming have been shown to cause RBC damage.”

    and

    “possibly an increased rate of RBC destruction with long term exercise.”

    hmmm. exercise has now been found to be unhealthy and maybe even toxic for me, I better quit…. but wait…

    “Providing RBC destruction does not exceed the rate of RBC production, no detrimental effect to athletic performance should occur. An increased rate of RBC turnover may be advantageous because young cells are more efficient in
    transporting oxygen.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7740249

    I think that particular study kind of expresses the point I was trying to
    make, when I suggested;

    “who’s really to say that a slight increase of a few hours or even a few days of the normal RBC turnover is not a healthy thing anyway?”

    ——————-

    You say that vomiting would be a limiting factor for humans before reaching anemia. Garlic anemia seems to be a concern in Nigeria, where there is not much conventional medicine, and large amounts of garlic are evidently consumed for cures for things like malaria and parasites. The thing is malaria and parasites can cause anemia in themselves. If you want to see that study I can dig it up again, but I believe I already presented to you sometime time back on the forum side.

    I wonder if the poor dogs in that study would have puked too if they had been fed the huge amount of raw garlic orally. But instead they were administered all that garlicextract intragastrically, which I take to mean not orally, but by means of intubation, gavage, or gastronomy,

    https://www.tititudorancea.net/z/intragastric_route_of_administration.htm

    whether anything else was given, i.e. anti-emetic, anesthetic, etc., don’t know, I didn’t see enough info in that study
    ————————

    I’m not going to say or argue a whole lot more about garlic. It’s already a decided thing for me. I think it boils down to this, Dogs don’t require garlic, and they are almost certainly more susecptible than humans to any of garlics adverse effects. if a person does not feel comfortable about giving a dog garlic, then definitely, don’t. For my dog I believe the numerous health benefits exceed the
    risks, and I’m comfortable with it as an ongoing supplement for both him, myself, and my family.
    ————————————
    The phone number I was trying for N.A.P. yesterday was a apparently a non working or no longer working number 888 624 8373, and never got through. I talked to a fellow, a sales? rep, but he worked in the book warehouse and had limited info,
    so the N.A.P. D.C. headquarters got back to me today (now yesterday) and informed me that there is NOT an electronic or online version available. when asked why then the executive summary says i could purchase a print or an electronic version, she
    described it as a “blurb”, but that that particular book was not available online.

    She had no idea which libraries/institutions might possess a copy. I know that I won’t be spending $265.00 for it. I’ve already seen enough for my own purposes.

  • aimee

    Hi Storms Mom

    Honestly… It is because I didn’t want to take the time to find citations for something I know.

    Here are some sources for you:

    “The bone marrow constantly produces new RBC’s, since the life span of an RBC is only about 120 days”

    http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2116&aid=987

    “Red cells are produced by the bone marrow and have an average life span of 110 to 120 days”

    http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/symptoms-and-treatments-of-anemia-in-dogs

    Here is a research based paper in which non greyhound rbc lifespan was measured at 104.3 +/- .2.2 days, greyhounds were much shorter at 53.6 +/- 6.5 days

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8723892

    Here is a mention in an abstract of a paper I have NOT read
    ” Because dog RBCs have survival characteristics that closely resemble
    those of human RBCs (ie, low random RBC loss, approximately 115-day life span)”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9864184

  • aimee

    When values are given in chart form like as seen here I’d expect that all numbers refer to the same form. The summary you posted reported the HSI in horses as being based on dried garlic powder.

    To calculate a fresh equivalent I used moisture contents from USDA database. Dried garlic powder is reported as 6.45% moisture and raw as 58.58% water.
    22 mg/kg dried garlic x .935 DM = 20.57 mgDM

    “y” mg fresh garlic X .414 DM = 20.57mgDM garlic Solving for “y” = 49.68 mg fresh garlic/kg

    USDA reports 1 clove as 3 grams.

    3000mg/clove divided by 49.68 mg/kg = 60.38 kg/clove x 2.2 lbs/kg= ~133 lbs/clove

  • Storm’s Mom

    Where did you read ~120 days? Why ask losul to produce evidence of the finding when you yourself did not do so for yours?

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    What I got out of your link is that WGA when applied in vitro to a cell culture line originally taken from a colon tumor it altered the cells permeability and that WGA stimulates cytokines.

    From el doctors reference when garlic was put onto tissue in a living system it caused cell death.

    So yes toxicity is relative and all things are “toxic”

  • aimee

    Hi losul.

    I’m quite certain I read the avg RBC lifespan in the dog is ~120 days. Where did you read rbc turnover in 30-60 days?

    Sensitivity to oxidation is related to the number of sulfhydryl groups on the hemoglobin molecule. People have 2, dogs have 4, cats have 8.

    People aren’t immune to oxidative effects, but highly resistant compared to other species. IMO I think the amount of fresh garlic needed to cause anemia in a person would have to be massive and would cause the person to vomit thereby limiting exposure.

    Acetominophen in cats is a big no no. Dogs can be dosed safely but if overdosed have problems and people, even in massive overdoes don’t experience clinical oxidative damage to the rbcs.

  • aimee

    Hi el doctor,

    As evident from the pics garlic is caustic. One can find pics of skin burns as well which occur when people apply it to their skin for periods of time.

    I’ m not sure what to make of this as the delivery system doesn’t reflect how it usually is consumed. However medline reports “When taken by mouth, garlic can cause bad breath, a burning sensation
    in the mouth or stomach, heartburn, gas, nausea, vomiting, body odor,
    and diarrhea. These side effects are often worse with raw garlic.”

    So these irritant effects may also occur when consumed along with food.
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/300.html

    In regards to raw garlic equivalent without knowing the moisture content in the freeze dried prep it really is just a guess. If I assume 8 % moisture in the freeze dried and 58% in the fresh ( USDA database) I’d calculate the 60 mg freeze dried dose reflects ~132 mg fresh garlic.

  • Shawna

    I’ve seen this same thing suggested in humans. Hopefully nobody is silly enough to attempt to forcibly feed raw garlic on an empty stomach.

  • el doctor

    Hi aimee

    I was discussing the possible risks and benefits of feeding garlic to dogs with a Vet I sometimes refer clients to.

    While she wasn’t able to shine any light on the issue of red blood toxicity, she did tell me about a study in which a dehydrated, pulverized, raw garlic preparation was administered directly onto the stomach mucosa of 2 beagles in 3 different places. Different preparations were used on the remaining 4 dogs in the study

    The preparation used was half cellulose and half RGP (dehydrated raw powdered garlic). 40 mg of this preparation was directly sprayed onto the 3 different places of stomach mucosa, for a total of 120 mg, of which 60 mg was the (RGP) garlic and 60 mg was cellulose.

    Results

    “FIGURE 5 (first pic)
    Stomach mucosa 24 h after raw garlic powder (RGP) administration. Ulcer-like erosion of mucosa was noted.”

    “FIGURE 6 (second pic)
    Gross (a) and histologic (b, hematoxylin and eosin X50) appearance of the stomach 24 h after the raw garlic powder (RGP) administration. Erosion and infiltration of inflammatory cells were noted.”

    The total of 120 mg of preparation contained 60 mg of freeze dried powdered garlic. I figure that approx 240 mg of raw garlic was used to make the 60 mg of RGP preparation.

    That seems like a very small amount of raw garlic equivalent (240 mg) to cause so much damage to the stomach mucosa of those 2 beagles

    Please take a look and tell what you think and let me know if my calculations add up.

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/3/1109S.full?related-urls=yes&legid=nutrition;131/3/1109S#T1

    Thank you!

  • losul

    Actually I believe the words garlic oil/powder refer to the PSI number (56) rather than HSI.

    Can you tell how you calculated an equivalent?

    Raw whole garlic substitutions (powders, granulates, etc) can be found by googling those words. These generally refer to in terms of cooking recipes.

    Here is one;

    http://www.healwithfood.org/substitute/garlic-cloves-convert-granulated-powder.php

    The more I have researched, the more comfortable I feel about supplementing my dog’s diet with garlic. For my dog, I feel the the benefits of theses small amounts should greatly exceed any risks. I won’t/can’t make that determination for anyone else’s dog.

    What Shawna found “Older RBCs are therefore most susceptible to oxidative damage” even more substantiated for me. I thought she was entirely correct in her assertions to that prior, but I think she found exactly what you repeatedly kept grilling her for. So for me, a clincher on that.

  • losul

    There are people who claim that garlic is quite toxic to humans also, even somne say so in any amount. Yet throughout the ages, people have been using garlic for it’s numerous benefits, without completely proven adverse events, or at least regarding hemolytic anemia, and as far as i know. But I have seen references that in large enough amounts, humans too are not immune to garlics oxidant effects on RBC’s, and yes even hemolytic anemia.

    If a mammals susceptibiltity to blood abbnormalities from garlic were to be defined as the anti-oxidant capacity of that particular mammals red blood cells, then it seems to make sense that cats are more susceptible than dogs, dogs may be more susceptible than horses, dogs and horse’s more susceptible than humans, etc.

    If the small amounts of garlic advised by vets, etc., and assuming that these small amounts even would produce any measureable abnormalities or of clinical or statistical significance ( I haven’t seen evidence of that) in a healthy dog, who’s really to say that a slight increase of a few hours or even a few days of the normal RBC turnover is not a healthy thing anyway? I think the consensus I’ve seen is normal complete RBC turnover of 30 to 60 days in a dog.

    I agree that to further understand the NRC’s report, the chapter from the book needs to be read. I didn’t at first even realize the report was an entire book. I’ve been attempting to call National Academics Press. today to find out more, whether just the relevant chapter can be purchased in an electronic version, etc., how much, etc. So far all I get is a busy signal.

  • Shawna

    It’s apparently available as an eBook through some universities.

    Wheat germ agglutinin, from any products containing whole wheat, is “toxic” to individual cells too but you never mention that and if memory serves are completely fine with the inclusion of whole wheat or even wheat germ in pet foods. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19332085

  • aimee

    I agree older cells are more susceptible but that is not the same as only ones affected, healthy cells can be affected as well. I see your statement as incorrect.

    In regards to the quote ” There is a long history of safe use” this is in direct reference to the HSI number posted which seems to be a much lower dose the commonly recommended.

    The additional information losal linked to reports that the HSI refers to powder or oil and not fresh garlic as I had assumed based on the information given.

    If I calculate based on powder I get about one 3 gram clove/138 lbs as being the HSI use amount. I don’t know how to calculate oil into fresh garlic or even if the HSI refers to oil or powder.

    I’m not sure what research you linked to that you are referring to. There really isn’t much out there on which to base a “safe” level. For now I think the HSI is reasonable start.

    I’m very curious as to what this all means and hope to be able to read the original source.

  • aimee

    I still consider garlic toxic in any amount when viewed from the cellular level, but as I said in very small amounts is not toxic to the organism as a whole.

    It isn’t clear to me if the presumed safe intake value (PSI) is a best guess to be safe on a daily or long term basis whereas the HSI is a long term basis with “no apparent ill effects”

    To understand this better I really think I need to read the chapter from the book.

  • Shawna

    It wouldn’t actually be useless but not as health promoting as when eaten/fed, grated/crushed etc and raw. Cooked garlic still has inulin and FOS which are prebiotics that feed the good bacteria in our guts.

    Many will say that garlic doesn’t help with fleas but I don’t think that is 100% accurate. Fleas have multiple ways of finding their victims, carbon dioxide from exhaled breath is one way. Colorado State University Extension Office used to have an article discussing garlic’s benefit against mosquitoes as it disguises the carbon dioxide being exhaled which is how mosquitoes find their victims (the page is no longer available). If it works against mosquitoes, it surely works the same on fleas. That said, fleas use other means to find their victims as well. I personally think there are other benefits of garlic for mosquito and flea repellants but no research on it so it is just my opinion. 🙂

  • Pitlove

    I have heard good and bad things about it. More good than bad though. I like the idea of it repelling fleas if it really does work for that.

  • Billy Bennet

    Apology accepted

  • Shawna

    No, it’s my understanding cooking garlic does not lessen the toxicity of the garlic. It does however lessen the antimicrobial benefits if you are wanting it for that purpose.

  • losul

    Let me say this much, I realize that I am guilty of something, and I completely regret what I first said. I can see now that I am guilty of some
    extravagandizing, getting carried away, not fully knowing what i was talking about at the time, and some of my own misunderstanding. I did and still do believe that I had read a bit of the newer material prior (newer than that summary pdf that i had first presented.)

    It’s not anywhere near to ANYTHING that you’ve made it out to be, i wouldn’t EVER purposely lie or deceive, to try to unduly influence anyone in an important issue.
    I have to be able to live with myself. I don’t see what I said as any kind of material issue, or opinion changing thing, nevertheless I should not have said in those words, without having the definite facts, and I should, and will be more careful in the future.

    If what I said, somehow affected anyone in any kind of material way, then I do apologize.

  • Pitlove

    So curiously, I think you and El Doctor have been talking about raw garlic yes/no? If you are and the garlic in dog food would be cooked twice over does the toxicity, or lack there of or whatever we decided garlic does, lessen because of that fact?

  • Billy Bennet

    “The full NRC supplement safety report is finally out too, but I haven’t gotten to read very much on it yet!!”

    ann g asked you “What book do you mean? I’ve had Safety of Dietary Supplements for Horses, Dogs, and Cats since it came out in 2008.”

    You answeered “”What I meant was, the openbook/online version only recently became available I believe, and I only read a small part of it.”

    What you meant was the online/openbook version of the “full supplement safety report” just came out and you only read a small part of it cause it’s a book not a 4 page summary

    You spun a story that wasn’t true and you got caught.

  • Crazy4cats

    Yep. Double hmm….

  • Shawna

    I can’t speak for losul but you are right, I have known him for a long time and I have never once known him to lie about anything. Is it possible he misinterpreted something? Sure. Is it possible he is lying? I guess, maybe. Losul has not yet given his side and may actually have found it — he found the original article after all.

    After all this hostility though, I kinda doubt he’s even going to want to engage anymore. Which brings me to the question, why are you exhibiting the hostility you are – over a book? You’ve never been on before, NO Discus activity at all until now and then to attack someone. I get calling people out on their inaccuracies. It just happened to me several times this week. But those calling me out, on something that actually mattered to the conversation, weren’t hostile about it.

  • Shawna

    I’m not sure Ann? I tried my local library but I’m not currently a member so wasn’t able to log in to see if they had it. My guess would be more likely in Universities though.

    My niece goes to University of Nebraska in Lincoln but she’s interning in Minnesota over the summer. If someone finds it, please let me know… I did download the extended summary version which losul mentioned. You both are right, it specifically states “garlic powder” and “garlic oil”.

    How did your boss feel about you losing a $300 (assuming after taxes) book. LOL Mine would have a heart attack I’m sure. 🙂

  • DogFoodie

    Yep. Hmm…

  • losul

    That’s a real funny one, talk about tryin too switch the focus!!

    I’m gone to try to find out, but lets put the burden on you for a change, you show me were that the currently available summary was available and for
    free in 2008-2009. The one online and the one I already had shown the board ARE different. Again, I NEVER said there was a free version., But I WAS thinking more of it might be free.

  • losul

    Well it’s deja vu all over again, isn’t it.. You’re very angry because the misguided “garlic is toxic in any amount” statement got shot down. You see, I was already expecting a setup and attack of this sort. I already saw it coming.

    I had the summary pdf that i first posted here and I said it was from 2008, and I hadn’t even looked at nap.edu site for awhile. It was my understanding (and still is) that more info, and I never said it was free, was now available an online. There’s not as much free apparently yet, than I first thought, but There IS more info in that summary online now, one part of that is two additional words, garlic oil and garlic powder right in a key area, page 4.

    http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12461&page=4

    I don’t think that current summary has been there ever since 2008. Maybe it’s not from 2015, but If you click on the terms and conditions on one of those summary pages, it says copyright 2014. And I never said it was going to be free. I gave you what I had, you’ll just have to pay if you want to see more. And there IS an electronic version available now. I believe as time goes by, more free material is usually released on these books, but I’ll end up finding out how all this works.

    “You put this in to make it look like you have something you don’t. The free “1st 12 pages (front matter)” you mentioned today are the acknowlegements the table of contents and the index. Thats how you know whats on pages 135-142″

    Of course that’s how I know, I even told you to read those first pages and those includes the table of contents. I NEVER said I had the book.

    “Your story is false, there’s no online/openbook free version of the book like you claimed yesterday.”

    I didn’t ever claim such that there was a free version, and I used the words “I believe”

    Lastly, if I’m wrong at all, then so be it. It doesn’t change the findings and the fact that YOU’RE very wrong.

  • Ann G

    I clicked the link, all I found was the hardcover for $295 and a list of libraries that had the hardcover. Did I miss the ebook version? I would like to read the book again, the last time I saw my book was five or six years ago.

  • Ann G

    Your welcome:)

  • Billy Bennet

    You can try to switch the focus away from losul and the story he made up thats what friends do but you can’t change what he said

    “The full NRC supplement safety report is finally out too, but I haven’t gotten to read very much on it yet!!”

    “What I meant was, the openbook/online version only recently became
    available I believe, and I only read a small part of it. I didn’t pay
    the hefty sum for a hardcover”

    The online report came out in 20008-2009 not recently. there is no free online/openbook version. He hasn’t read much of it cause he doesn’t have it. Now he’s trying desperatly to cover it up. Blame me if you like I got big shoulders ;]

    .

  • Shawna

    Your posting style is very familiar. Where have I seen that?

  • Billy Bennet

    I dont know why you lied yesterday or why your desperately trying to weave your way out of it today so i’ll just present the facts and not try to figure you out.

    Your story yesterday was

    “The full NRC supplement safety report is finally out too, but I haven’t gotten to read very much on it yet!!”

    That report came out as a book in 2008 not recently

    “What I meant was, the openbook/online version only recently became
    available I believe, and I only read a small part of it. I didn’t pay the hefty sum for a hardcover”

    There’s no free online/openbook version. The enhanced summary you linked to today was available in early 2009. The copyright at the bottom of the page is on every page of the website!!!! It’s the copyright for the website not the book summary!!!!! and the “Electronic version ” you highlighted like it helps you out is not free!!!!

    You made stuff up yesterday and now your trying to talk your way out of it by going to the publishers website and showing a free summary and a free look at the books table of contents acknowledgements and index which have been there since 2009.

    “It’s not apparent to me whether there are additional free downloads available,”

    The free download is the summary not the book. Theres no free download of the book period

    “But I will be most interested in all of Chapter 8 which is dedicated to
    garlic, and pages 135-142 of chapter 8, dedicated to description of garlic.”

    You put this in to make it look like you have something you don’t. The free “1st 12 pages (front matter)” you mentioned today are the acknowlegements the table of contents and the index. Thats how you know whats on pages 135-142

    Your story is false, there’s no online/openbook free version of the book like you claimed yesterday. Theres only a free summary and a free look at the front pages of the book that are available since 2009.

    If i were you I would drop this. It’s your words not mine that prove you lied!!!!

  • Shawna

    For the very same reason that the AVMA and such are suggesting the avoidance of raw diets — (in my opinion) it’s cutting into somebodies pockets and they don’t like it. 🙂

  • Shawna

    Thank you very very much Ann G for the clarification!! Very much appreciated!

  • losul

    It’s really not that hard to do with some effort, but I’ll spell it out. Anyone can do this, but it will prob, ask you at some point to provide your EM and agree to terms and conditions. go to nap.edu type name of book in searchbox. click read online. That will put you in the 1st 12 pages (front matter). read the pages if you want. scroll to the bottom and notice copyright 2015. click on summary. this has a little more detail than the summary I previously linked. On page 4, it defines the forms of garlic from which they appeared to have formed their determination of PSI for dogs (it WASN’T raw whole garlic)

    If you want to put a little more effort into it, you can figure out for yourself how to download the Free Executive Summary pdf to your computer, I did that today. On that download it states you may purchase a print or Electronic version of the book. you would likely have to sign up for MYNAP to purchase the electronic version.

    It’s not apparent to me whether there are additional free downloads available, or increased access, by signing up for MYNAP or not, I didn’t try yet, it’s not at ALL a priority for me right now. I’m quite happy with the numbers.

    But I will be most interested in all of Chapter 8 which is dedicated to garlic, and pages 135-142 of chapter 8, dedicated to description of garlic.

  • Billy Bennet

    I don’t know what losul’s talking about. There is no openbook/online
    version of the book Safety of Dietary Supplements for Horses, Dogs, and
    Cats.

  • Ann G

    I didn’t pay the hefty sum either:) I got a copy from my boss.

    “What I meant was, the openbook/online version only recently became available I believe, and I only read a small part of it. I didn’t pay
    the hefty sum for a hardcover

    I’ll find it again when I get the time.”

    I hope you find the time real soon, hint hint.

  • Ann G

    I’m with you 1000% on this:) I work with a supplement company BTW. We have a garlic extract for dogs with a dosage of 100 mg for every 10 pounds. We are within the HSI set in the safety report so no worries there.

    Recently I was at a new pet store and I dropped off some samples and literature for our garlic product. We quote the same report your talking about were they give the dogs garlic equal to 5 grams per kilogram and I explain how thats such a huge amount and the dogs still didn’t get anemia.

    I go back the next day to take his order and he catches me off guard. He asks me why if garlic is safe in small amounts the guys who did that study say you shouldn’t give garlic to dogs period.

    I told him I wasn’t aware of that and I would get back to him this afternoon with an answer. Sure enough I find the study and this is what the reasearchers conclude

    “Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to dogs. ”

    Needless to say I didn’t make the sale:(

    Why do think those study guys recommend against feeding garlic to dogs anyway?

  • losul

    What I meant was, the openbook/online version only recently became available I believe, and I only read a small part of it. I didn’t the pay hefty sum for a hardcover

    I’ll find it again when I get the time.

    Be sure to come back and let us know if and when you find yours!!!!

  • Ann G

    “The full NRC supplement safety report is finally out too, but I haven’t gotten to read very much on it yet!!”

    What book do you mean? I’ve had Safety of Dietary Supplements for Horses, Dogs, and Cats since it came out in 2008.

  • Ann G

    I have the book Safety of Dietary Supplements for Horses, Dogs, and Cats and the garlic used was a supplement. Itried to find the book before I wrote this but no luck yet:(

  • losul

    I’ve never seen raw whole garlic sold as a supplement, have you? and the report was specifically about supplements. I don’t think the FDA cares about people buying garlic at the grocery store and using however they see fit.

  • Bobby dog

    Mmmmmmm, it was delicious!!! Broccoli, sugar snap peas, carrots, orange peppers, garlic, and olive oil.

  • Crazy4dogs

    And some extra virgin olive oil 🙂

  • losul

    Yummm. Did I lead you into temptation? Go ahead and be naughty, lol.

  • Bobby dog

    I was going to behave myself and steam some vegetables for dinner this evening. After seeing your pic I am thinking veggies sautéed with lots of garlic!

  • losul

    “Older RBCs are therefore most susceptible to oxidative damage.” Very nice find Shawna!!

  • losul

    thnx Shawna 😉

  • losul

    Aimee y/w.

    Unfortunately, NRC didn’t make it exactly clear how to interpret the numbers in the summary. Perhaps it’s explained further in the full report.

    Going by the NRC guidelines for HSI and PSI, and for a 120lb dog, I came up with similar numbers- HSI = 1.2 grams and PSI = 3 grams. The garlic I use weighs about 3.5 grams each clove. Most common garlic I’ve seen is smaller, i would consider mine to be extra large or even jumbo. I’ve used elephant garlic before that might have cloves weighing 6 grams, but that is not a true garlic, as is much milder.

    If NRC is giving the numbers based on raw whole garlic, then yes, there are some reccomendations for supplementing a little higher than the PSI. I don’t see the the NRC guidelines as miniscule or insignificant though anyway, and it’s a far cry from stating that garlic is toxic in any amount.

    Going by their guidelines for PSI, and if assuming they are referring to raw whole garlic equivalent, I would still use about 7 grams/week or 2 extra large cloves for my 38 pounder. For the last 5/6 months, I’ve been giving him about 10 grams/week, or 3 extra large cloves/week, not for anything in particular, just for general health maintenance. I don’t even see that as really significantly more than than the NRC PSI, but it’s the most I will consider for regular usage for my dog as of now.

    I wonder how NRC came up with the 22 number for HSI, and their “long history of safe usage” words, it makes me think it could be the amount traditionally, commonly and regularly used for flavoring many dog foods.

    Anyway, you’ve seemed to have backed off your original “all amounts are toxic stance” quite a bit.

    I found it interesting that the expert cited by el, also stated this; “Concurrent treatment with xenobiotics, drugs, or dietary factors that induce erythrocyte oxidative injury (e.g. propofol, propylene glycol, dl-methionine, sulfonamides, sulfapyridine, large doses of vitamin K3, benzocaine) or diminish erythrocyte oxidative defenses (e.g. acetaminophen) is likely to increase an animal’s susceptibility to Allium species toxicosis.” I added the bold, and will clarify K3 is menadione. Many of us know which low grade dog foods have these combinations of substances.

    There’s an interesting article and commentary on this site, I’ve made a few posts there;

    http://www.petguide.com/health/dog/the-shocking-truth-about-dogs-and-garlic/

    Here’s a pic i posted there showing what the researchers would have given my dog in one day x 7 days. If the pic doesn’t work you can find it on the petguide site, scrolling down through the comments.

    http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1626/7734/original.jpg?w=600&h

  • Shawna

    I’m not sure why we are still having this conversation. The article doesn’t clearly identify whole garlic or extract but my interpretation is extract while yours is not. Each person will have to decide for themselves.

    The University of Georgia, College of Veterinary Medicine
    “Red blood cells have metabolic antioxidant pathways that protect against ongoing oxidative processes and the production of HzB. The hexose monophosphate pathway produces reduced glutathione, a free radical scavenger that binds to reactive oxygen species before they can harm the cell and reduces disulfide bonds induced by oxidant stress. The methemoglobin reductase pathway reduces metHb to oxyHb, restoring the RBC’s oxygen-carrying capacity.4 As red blood cells are anucleate and lack the ability to regenerate enzymes, these protective mechanisms are exhausted as the cell ages. Older RBCs are therefore most susceptible to oxidative damage.” Edit — Oops, forgot the link http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/education/Curriculum/VM8304/vet%20pathology/CASES/Heinz%20Body%20Anemia%20In%20Cats.htm

    Since we are (I am) SPECIFICALLY discussing “appropriate amounts” of garlic (therefore small amounts, based on size of pet, given three to four times per week) as you yourself stated, a small amount of garlic equals a small amount of red blood cell loss. The “older” cells will be affected with appropriate use of garlic.

    What I “like to report as safe”, really aimee? So you are saying the research I’ve linked is incorrect? AND let’s not forget that the authors of the articles themselves specifically state – and I quote “*There is a long history of safe use.” Maybe it is you who is unwilling to look at the evidence objectively?

  • aimee

    Hi Shawna,

    The article did define dietary supplement

    “Animal dietary supplements are defined as any substance for oral
    consumption by horses, dogs, or cats, whether in/on feed or offered separately, intended for specific benefit to the animal by means other than provision of nutrients….”

    Fresh whole garlic fits quite well within the definition. It needn’t be a processed pill to be considered a dietary supplement as dietary supplement is defined as any substance for oral consumption”

    Food additive isn’t defined in the article however the FDA definition is ” “any substance the intended use of which results or may reasonably be
    expected to result — directly or indirectly — in its becoming a
    component or otherwise affecting the characteristics of any food…..Direct food additives are those that are added to a food for a specific purpose in that food. For example, xanthan gum -….Indirect food additives are those that become part of the food in trace amounts due to its packaging, storage or other handling.”

    http://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/FoodAdditivesIngredients/ucm094211.htm#foodadd

    Fresh whole garlic does not fit well into that definition as the purpose of adding garlic to food isn’t to change the food’s characteristics nor do you add garlic to the diet simply to become part of the diet.

    Of the three supplements the text accompanying the picture explains exactly what is being measured. With lutein it is explained that it is “abundant in” plants. Clearly lutein is not plant material as lutein is a specific name for a specific compound.

    For Evening Primrose Oil, again the reader knows the dosing isn’t based on whole plant because it is described as being “found in” the plant and it is clear the oil is what is being referred to.

    Then we come to garlic which is described as being “used in the diet of humans for centuries” and its use described in “Ancient medical texts” Are you saying back in ancient Rome they had processed garlic pills”?

    There really is no reason to read this as anything other than what it is “Garlic” pure and simple, not garlic powder or garlic extract or garlic oil or garlic capsules or any number of forms processed garlic supplements come in just plain simple cloves of garlic

    I think the reason you are rejecting that the authors are referring to whole garlic is simply because the safe dosing levels are much lower than what you like to report as safe.: )

    Ok so explain to me why you think only older rbc’s which are close to the natural end of life are affected by garlic.

    I’m a bit stymied by that statement, that the loss isn’t going to be any “healthy red blood cells”. . In this report the dog dropped its rbc volume probably by about 1/2 after eating garlic. I doubt very very much that those were all cells that were at the end of their natural life.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20009420

    Maybe I’m not understanding what you are saying.

  • aimee

    Hi Shawna,

    Would it help you to remember the difference between in vivo and in vitro if you think about in vitro in the context of assisted reproduction… “in vitro fertilization”.

  • el doctor

    Hi Shawna

    Thank you for your honesty!!! It’s a GREAT quality of yours.

    I believe this particular conversation has run its course for now as a lot of evidence has been presented on both sides of the debate and any more could become confusing instead of helpful.

    I just hope these comments help people make an informed decision on whether or not to feed their dogs garlic!!!.

  • Shawna

    Oops, missed the “sometimes confuse things….different types of anemia”.

    Nope, didn’t confuse things there. I understand the difference between HA and AIHA (one being an autoimmune response). I was just dead wrong on what triggered the immune response. I thought that it was the cell death that triggered the response when in fact it is the attachment of the antigen to the living red blood cell that causes the immune system to attack the living and healthy red blood cells.

  • Shawna

    I have to admit that I almost always mix up in vitro and in vivo and most times look it up because of that. This time I did not. I’m also really bad with math. I didn’t purposefully take “liberties” but when called out I realized I could have worded that better. If you read many of my posts you will come across more instances where I could have worded things better.

    I appreciate your comment and would hope that anyone take the advice and opinions of others with a grain of salt without first digging deeper. If science can’t agree on topics then how can we get it all right (fats, eggs, cholesterol etc). I evolve and learn almost daily and I assume most others do as well.

  • aquariangt

    Uh, so are you telling me everything you hear, or read, or are told you automatically take and hold onto? Veterinary medicine has a lot of opposing viewpoints and conflicting advice. People then will do their own research and find the best route for them. This would mean that you are going to be agreeing with some vets, and disagreeing with others on a wide variety of topics. If someone is arguing for something, they are going to link research that supports that. If someone is arguing against something, they will link research that supports that. Including Aimee. I’m a bit confused on your point here, because that’s how discussions…and people….work

  • el doctor

    You also take “liberties” in the facts you post and modify them to better suit your argument.

    “I must admit that I took a bit of liberty with “ready to die anyway”. I should have stated “older and less healthy”.”

    And you sometimes confuse things like “in vitro” and “in vivo” and the different types of anemia that garlic and vaccines can cause.

    So even though I respect and admire your opinions, one must take them with a grain of salt.

  • Shawna

    I wouldn’t say “just like” me. I use actual research over opinion based articles most of the time. Just so happens that the research I site matches my personal opinion.

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