Wysong Epigen 90 (Dry)


Rating: ★★★★★

Wysong Epigen 90 Dog Food receives the Advisor’s top rating of 5 stars.

The Wysong Epigen 90 product line includes one dry dog food, a recipe claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient guidelines for adult maintenance.

Wysong Epigen 90

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 70% | Fat = 18% | Carbs = 4%

Ingredients: Chicken meal, organic chicken, meat protein isolate, chicken fat, gelatin, natural flavor, coconut oil, chia seeds, taurine, calcium propionate, choline chloride, apple pectin, fish oil, yeast extract, citric acid, chicory root, hemicellulose extract, mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, yeast culture, minerals (potassium chloride, zinc proteinate, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, manganese sulfate, manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate), calcium carbonate, vitamins (ascorbic acid [source of vitamin C], vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid), dried Bacillus licheniformis fermentation product, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus lactis fermentation product

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.3%

Red items indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
Guaranteed Analysis63%16%NA
Dry Matter Basis70%18%4%
Calorie Weighted Basis60%37%4%
Protein = 60% | Fat = 37% | Carbs = 4%

The first ingredient in this dog food is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The second ingredient is organic chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The third ingredient is <meat protein isolate, a product made by “separating meat protein from fresh, clean, unadulterated bones by heat processing followed by low temperature drying to preserve function and nutrition. This product is characterized by a fresh meaty aroma, a 90% minimum protein level, 1% maximum fat and 2% maximum ash”.1

Contrary to what the name would normally imply, this item is not generic. According to Wysong (on its website), this ingredient is derived exclusively from pork meat.

This is a quality source of meat-based protein.

The fourth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The fifth ingredient is gelatin, a colorless, flavorless, translucent, brittle substance that’s irreversibly derived from the collagen found in the skin and bones of animals.

Although it consists mostly of protein (98-99% non-essential amino acids), gelatin is of only limited nutritional value to a dog.

After the natural flavor, we find coconut oil, a natural oil rich in medium-chain fatty acids.

Medium-chain triglycerides have been shown to improve cognitive function in older dogs.2

Because of its proven safety3 as well as its potential to help in the treatment of canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS) and chronic skin disorders, MCT can be considered a positive addition to this recipe.

The eighth ingredient includes chia seed, an edible seed nutritionally similar to flax or sesame. Provided they’re first ground into a meal, chia seeds are rich in both omega-3 fatty acids as well as dietary fiber.

However, chia seeds contain about 17% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the meat content of this dog food.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions

First, chicory root is rich in inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

Next, this recipe includes fish oil. Fish oil is naturally rich in the prized EPA and DHA type of omega-3 fatty acids. These two high quality fats boast the highest bio-availability to dogs and humans.

Depending on its level of freshness and purity, fish oil should be considered a commendable addition.

In addition, we find yeast extract. Yeast extract is the common name for a broad group of products made by removing the cell wall from the yeast organism.

A significant number of these ingredients are added as specialized nutritional supplements while others are used as flavor enhancers.

However, the glutamic acid (and its chemical cousin, monosodium glutamate, or MSG) found in a minority of yeast extracts can be controversial.

That’s because even though the Food and Drug Administration designated these food additives to be safe decades ago4, the agency continues to receive reports of adverse effects.

So, detractors still object to the use of yeast extract and other glutamic acid derivatives and blame them for everything from Alzheimer’s (in humans) to obesity.

In any case, since the label reveals little about the the actual type of yeast extract included in any recipe, it’s impossible for us to judge the quality of this ingredient.

And lastly, this food contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Wysong Epigen 90 Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Wysong Epigen 90 looks like an above-average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 70%, a fat level of 18% and estimated carbohydrates of about 4%.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 25%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the chia seed, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a significant amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Wysong Epigen 90 is a meat-based dry dog food using a significant amount of chicken meal and meat protein isolate as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning this recipe 5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

As kibbles go, this one is unique. Not only is it grain free, it’s also potato free. And it possesses one of the most abundant meat contents of any dry dog food in our database.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

Wysong Dog Food
Recall History

The following list (if present) includes all dog food recalls since 2009 directly related to this product line. If there are no recalls listed in this section, we have not yet reported any events.

You can view a complete list of all dog food recalls sorted by date. Or view the same list sorted alphabetically by brand.

To learn why our ratings have nothing to do with a product’s recall history, please visit our Dog Food Recalls FAQ page.

Get free dog food recall alerts sent to you by email. Subscribe to The Advisor’s recall notification list.

Dog Food Coupons
And Discounts

Readers are invited to check for coupons and discounts shared by others in our Dog Food Coupons Forum.

Or click the buying tip below. Please be advised we receive a fee for referrals made to the following online store.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

The Dog Food Advisor does not test dog food products.

We rely entirely on the integrity of the information provided by each company. As such, the accuracy of every review is directly dependent upon the specific data a company chooses to share.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

We rely on tips from readers. To report a product change or request an update of any review, please contact us using this form.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

However, we do receive a fee from Chewy.com for each purchase made as a direct result of a referral from our website. This fee is a fixed dollar amount and has nothing to do with the size of an order or the brand selected for purchase.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

08/17/2016 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  2. Pan Y et al, Dietary supplementation with medium-chain TAG has long-lasting cognition-enhancing effects in aged dogs, British Journal of Nutrition, Volume 103, Issue 12, June 2010, pp 1746-1754
  3. Matulka RA et al, Lack of toxicity by medium chain triglycerides (MCT) in canines during a 90-day feeding study,Food Chem Toxicol, Jan 2009, 47(1) 35-9.
  4. L-Glutamic Acid, FDA Select Committee on GRAS Substances
  • joe warren

    Has this helped with anyone’s dogs yeast problems

  • DogFoodie

    Until you open it. You should only buy the size bag of dry food that you’ll use within about two or three weeks. You run the risk of rancidity the more you expose the food to air.

  • M Dunn

    Other high quality kibble comes in large bags. It’s not like potato chips that expire in 30 days. Kibble when fresh usually is good for a year or more.

  • Melissa Westhouse

    Thank you 🙂

  • Crazy4cats

    Beautiful dog!

  • Melissa Westhouse

    My dog has had problems with his stool being soft and occasional diarrhea. Since switching to this food and him growing accustomed to it so far so good. I love that the bigger size comes in 5 lb bags to keep it fresher. I use the epigen 90 original chicken flavor so far. My dog is an Alaskan Shepherd aka Alaskan Malamute x German Shepherd dog 105.8 lbs.

  • Melissa Westhouse

    1800petmeds, drsfosterandsmith, and amazon all have it for cheaper then wysong.com in both sizes. All forms of Epigen 90

  • bohicasis

    Hi DEb, my cat went thru much at age 15. (literally reabsorbed a pregnancy_so much for that spay over a decade ago, kidneys were shutting down, no food could stay down, ) I removed all kibble and now feed her exclusively raw. As she is VERY picky . I went thru epigen90 but that didnt change much as she is not, by nature, a water consumer. Epigen did ok for a brief time but she had trouble digesting. I moved over to Instincts RAW (premade) and all of her levels are back to kitten hod, no digestion issues, Happy now at 16. I now giver her what i feed my canine (raw, home mixed) but she no taste for it.. All i can say is that she has a MUCH easier time digesting raw than any other food at her age. So many years of store bought yuk food didnt due her any favors. Cats have no need for peas, carrots, etc. And it is far easier for an animal to digest raw as it is cooked. Give it a shot, remove kibble and cooked.. FYI:I i fond that ground meat my animals can not stomach. Have no idea why, i only know what has worked and am extremely relived. ~ NOTE: for cat the food has to be room temp (frozen raw) or it comes up_shock to system

  • Pitlove

    Yes, it’s fairly hard to find (especially near me) and you will never find it in the big box stores. You can however order it online from the Wysong website or chewy.com. Chewy however, only has their 5 lb bags and not the bigger size boxes.

  • Epigen is a processed kibble.

  • Debbie DiFrancesco

    sorry raw

  • Debbie DiFrancesco

    Is this rae food, or kibble?

  • Debbie DiFrancesco

    thanks PitLove, my kitty is 20 yr and has been on cheap food all her life, vets says she was very healthy but now I see her having issues with her back legs .. wobbly … she is also picky.. is this hard to find in pet supply stores ? as I do not buy from food chains .. thanks again

  • Pitlove

    Hi Debbie- Yes Wysong’s formulas can be fed to a cat as well because of the high protein and inclusion of taurine.

    My pitbull is very picky as well. 2 foods that he has eaten without me having to dress it up are Fromm Gold and NutriSource. Perhaps those could work for your baby too!

    Best of luck!

  • Debbie DiFrancesco

    this is a cat food.??? I’m stumped… my boy pit is so picky, have him on earthborn and I have to either sit on the floor and hand feed him or mix with hamburg or chicken, peas, carrots, all cooked of course… want to know how to feed this to my boy? looking at Forrm or brothers.. acana, anything he might finally enjoy

  • bohicasis

    well my dog experienced the same thing. needless to say i am PEEVED.

  • bohicasis

    OK..i have had it. My dog has developed serious runs with epigen90. the cat, i am keeping a close eye on but this is insane. I was happy to find a kibble to substitute his raw …but this is ludicrous. He is ..well, lets just say “raw”. NO MORE i will cal manana or when they open Monday. I am pretty darn peeved. I read the ferret reviews and many many many many experienced the same thing. This has been going on for quiet some time and my dog does not have digestive issues, GI issues, allergies (expect for stepping on clover grass), etc… His immune system is grt, his kidney, liver , perfect, blood levels fine..but this diarrhea is kicking him. This has NOT happened with ANY OTHER FOOD_EVER

  • bohicasis

    more raw. add coconut oil, rotate, and i also us sulfur cream on my dogs paws because when the heat and humidity hit in FL, NO MATTER WHAT I FEED HIM, it comes on his paws. Balance his gut with ACV as well and good luck to you. Typically i see yeast overgrowth in the whites.

  • bohicasis

    IN DRY, not raw, the def need to consume much more water and exercise more to properly utilize all that protein.

  • bohicasis

    Thank you for that. Will keep an eye on my senior cat as well as my do due to tuarine levels. I know cats DO NOT consume much water so adding raw. If vey loose stools become an issue, i will be adding DE , just a tad

  • Pitlove

    Hi guys-
    Thoughts on this food for my yeast prone pitbull? It looks like winner IMO. Just wanting more opinions.

  • retired_sandman

    Two big paws down for this new formulation (wysong epigen 90 version 2.0). My cats did well with the
    old epigen 90 but with the change to the new packaging (and apparently new formulation as guaranteed analysis changed) one of my cats developed life-threatening diarrhea and emesis requiring cerenia, immodium, and
    subq fluids. I searched and couldn’t find anything about this with other cats, but there is something about their new formulation for the ferret did the same thing to ferrets resulting in several dead ferrets. Just be advised if this happens to your cat, it could be the “new and improved wysong”.

    They now package it in a 5# container rather than the 2# and the container no longer has a zip-lock closure. When I contacted the company inquiring about keeping it fresh, they volunteered that they sold separate bag closure tools. Looking at the ingredient list, there’s some trashy
    looking protein isolate in there now that could be the source of my cats problems.

    Wysong used to produce a good although pricey product.
    Now they seem to be cutting corners to the detriment of our pets. Theyturn their corner-cuts into a source of potential additional revenue for those stupid enough to sign up for the honor. Wysong, bad on you. I’m switching to wellness core.

    *** Addendum:

    36 hours after the food switch and 24 hours after last immodium dose, my cat with
    diarrhea is CURED and all are eating the new food, lending strong circumstantial evidence to the reformulated Wysong Epigen 90 being the culprit. A scan of the ingredients compared with the old reveals “purified meat protein isolate” and chia seeds as new ingredients in the new
    formulation that wasn’t in the old. One or both could be the likely culprit.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Thank you very much. Helpful.

  • I finished up the Epigen and haven’t ordered it again. The ingredients have changed since my last order. I was adding it to other foods (because I’m a food mixer). The pugs didn’t have any issues with the food but again it was mixed with other foods. Also, the second brand you mentioned, I have run out of it too but I was using it as “base kibble” and I would add different foods to it for variety without transitioning off. My pugs currently eat raw and canned foods and dehydrated foods. They rarely eat kibble now.

  • Nancy Calloway

    I notice you have used ZIWIPeak. I am thinking about this food for my GSD. Have spoken at length to the owner. Very transparent. She says she has two choc labs, 70 pounds each. For breakfast they get 2 1/2 scoops on top of half a can of their food, and tops that with 1 TBS organic flax seed oil. says they are picture of health, never sick, energetic, beautiful coats. For supper they get a large meaty- with- fat bone to chew. That’s it for supper. She rotates the specific meats/can flavors. She has, of course, studied canine nutrition, says MANY dogs have been healed amazingly on this protocol, and speaks with confidence about the merit of the food. What can you tell me about it due to your own experience. Thank you in advance.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Marcia, now I am 2 years behind you and am reading everything I can about Epigen 90. What did you think? How did the dogs like it? Thank you for whatever you can say.
    Nancy Jane

  • Angela Stratton McCauley

    Thanks 🙂

  • neezerfan

    Dr. Mike’s review was last updated 10 months ago, so I would say your’s is correct.

  • Angela Stratton McCauley


    I found this ingredient list on PetFlow.com and it’s different than your list. Which one is correct?

  • Dave’s Hounds

    most raw feeders will say their dogs are eating 50%+ protein – i don’t think 60 is too high. I rotate foods.

  • gmcbogger38

    Is 60% protein too much or is it fine? My gut says it is fine, but other people I know say it isn’t. I just wanted to get opinions.

  • Liz

    I feed my 7 yr old English bulldog epigen 90 for the past 4 months. I order it online because it is hard to find in stores. I have tried almost every brand out there and I have found that this is the best one for her. Her digestion, skin, and coat improved and her energy level is so much better. I alternate with this and canned food that is starch and grain free. I highly recommend this dry dog food!!

  • Hi Mark,

    I see you’re in the pet food industry.  I just wondered if you owned your own retail store, or what your level of personal involvement was.  No ulterior motives…, just curious.  : )

  • Mark

    Dave’s Hounds, the Epigen™ 90 comes in 2 lb bags and 16 lb boxes.  It is actually an excellent way to package a food with this much meat.  Any larger size bag would not ensure the freshness one would desire for a food with so much meat.  Large bags of any fresh food does not make sense to me.  Opening and closing a package exposes the contents to air and moisture.  A 20 lb bag of this food would spoil, as it should, after so many openings.  No fresh, high quality food I would eat would ever come in a large package. Just think of a 20 lb bag of potato chips – YUK!  The larger package size for these foods is a 16 lb box, i.e., 8 x 2 lb bags.  Brilliant packaging!  To my knowledge Wysong has not had any mold issues for many years and that was a very limited number of products and was due to a plant workers error, not any ingredient issues.

  • Dave’s Hounds

     Epigen contains gluten but Epigen 90 is gluten free and has higher protein. Epigen 90 is in my rotation and I think it is an excellent food. I have two issues with it though – the 2.5 lb bags are inconvenient and they have had some mold problems. I ended up with Brothers and I would highly recommend it to you.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m not positive but I don’t believe Epigen has been around that long so I would not necessarily attribute its longevity to any one food.  I could be wrong.

  • Jolieqe

    What’s the difference with Epigen and Epigen 90 (for dogs)? I thought I’ve seen an informercial looking ad online for this brand and not a lot of reviews so I’m not familiar with it…. I am interested in trying it because a customer at the pet store was buying it and his dog was 16 yrs old!

  • Dave’s Hounds

    I recently moved back to the US from Toronto and needed a kibble for ease – I have been using Epigen 90 with Wysong, Ziwipeak and instinct canned twice a day for a month and I am impressed. I like the low fat option and have noticed that the 2 cysts that have been growing on one of my hounds have disappeared – so I am wondering if the Epigen 90 contributed as it is the only food that was changed (from ziwipeak airdried). Could the low fat be what helped?

  • Pugsonraw

    I think this may be worth a try….. I found a small bag of the Epigen fish today at my local pet store.  They didn’t have the Epigen 90.  I looked at the ingredients in the fish and they appeared to be better than the chicken one. 

  • I forgot I have auto-ship on Epigen Fish so I just got another box.  That’s the only flavor of  Epigen I use.  It’s mixed in with their Brothers food. They’ve been eating it for close to a year now mixed in with the various kibbles I was using last year also. I remember I first started ordering it to get the obese pug I adopted to lose weight! He was 38 pounds!

  • Pugsonraw

    Hi Mark,
    I’m looking at trying Epigen 90 in my dry rotation for pugs.  I’m a part raw time feeder too and wanted to know if you need to transition slowly to this food.  What was your experience? 

    Also, have you tried the Epigen fish one? 

    Thanks Dawn…  

  • themushster

    Mark, thanks for your comment.  I just got my order today.  I also ordered the variety pack of the Au Jus canned.  I give my 4 dogs a couple of tablespoons of canned food in the evening as a “treat.”  I added a little bit of the Epigen90 to the kibble in their dishes, and 2 of them went right over and started eating as soon as they were finished with the canned “treat!”  I was amazed.  The only other kibble they took to so fast was the Royal Canin.  I am SO happy that I won’t have to struggle to change them over.  The kibble IS tiny…it actually looks like rabbit or goat pellets, but I think even smaller, which is pefect for my little ones with their tiny mouths with underbites, lol!  It’s expensive, but totally worth it if they eat, which it looks like they are going to do.  Yay!  Very glad I chose this food.  I can feel good about giving them a food they love.  I just placed an order for some of the Wysong Dream Treats, and a larger bag of the Epigen 90 (I only originally ordered 2 small bags, not being sure if they would eat it).  Thank you again or sharing your results with the Epigen line from Wysong and confirming my choice.  A++++++ to Wysong!

  • Mark

    I Have used the Epigen 90 with both my cats and dogs.  It is truly an amazing food.  I’ve never seen animals so interested in ANY kibble before in my 40+ years of having pets!  The kibble is small presumably because with that much meat and NO filler it has to be.  I notice it does not swell with warm water but softens nicely.  They also eat much less and are satiated for longer since it is mostly protein and not carbs.  My friends that have tried it have had similar results.  WOW a starch free kibble how cool and truly appropriate for carnivores!  Highest marks to Wysong for being the first (Epigen 60) and now the Epigen 90 to make a food for carnivores that has what they should eat.

  • monkey

    All of Fromm’s grain free formulas have small kibble as well.

  • sandy

    It’s the tiniest kibble I’ve ever used.  The next smallest would be  Amicus.

  • sandy

    My personal pugs are eating Brothers Red and Fish together (phasing out the Great Life) along with their various canned foods and raw foods.  They haven’t had any tummy troubles or poop problems or shedding (other than normal) or eye boogies.  My black one is still so black and shiny.  They had been eating it last year in the rotation already when I was using it and Nutrisca and Amicus or Instinct so it’s not new to them. Between all the different foods, their output is consistent – solid and scoopable and hardly any gas (I still give Krill occasionally which causes gas).

    The fosters are eating 1/2 to 2/3 Brothers and 1/2 to 1/3 local food without any issues either.  They eat it cold turkey after coming from the vet’s. No GI problems. When they first get here, I give them less than a full feed and give probiotics and enzymes and some coconut meat (CocoTherapy). Depending on medical issues, they either get the mix or just Brothers. My 9 yr old arthritic foster is just on Brothers not mixed with the grain food and he gets a spoon of the Instinct Raw Boost sprinkles and some other supplements. I just received tumeric in the mail today.

  • monkey

    Sandy, how is the Brothers going for you? Have you switched most of the dogs over?

  • themushster

    Thank you Sandy. I’m glad to know its small kibble because all my dogs are small and they have difficulty chewing larger pieces. They like little.

  • sandy

    I’ve only used Epigen Fish and I used it as a topper over another kibble to boost up the protein.  The kibble size is very small as it is canine/feline food.

  • Marcia Tomka

    Okiedokie, I’ve scanned the the 26 comments re: this product but no one has posted if they’ve tried it and how their dogs liked it.  I tried a raw food diet, but after a couple of weeks, one of my dogs stopped eating it, and 2 of my dogs started having VERY loose stool and they just didn’t seem to feel well.  After looking at almost all the grain free foods reviewed here, I’ve decided to try the Wysong Epigen 90 and supplement it with the Au Jus canned.  I just ordered two of the 2 lb. bags to give it a try.  They were previously eating the Royal Canin, which they loved.  I’m hoping that this kibble is appetizing for them.  They are pretty picky.  I was given some samples of different flavors of Taste of the Wild, and it was a no-go, LOL!  Has anyone had success with “picky” dogs liking the Epigen 90?  The Wysong website says that it “Has the natural flavor and taste that pets truly desire.”  I hope so!


  • Johnandchristo

    HI Yentle…..

    Yes I will remove the post.  I dont even know you Yentle, If were gonna be friends now can I call you Lentle? LOL JK.

  • Yentl

    Hi John

    Can you please remove your post about my dog food recipe. It is a big lie and you know it.

    The only reason I ask is because someone might read it who doesn’t know about your intense dislike for me and they might think your post is the truth when it is in fact a lie.

    Thank you,

  • Toxed2loss


    You’re welcome! 🙂 We all want the same thing… The best for our pups. Not every pup likes raw. So don’t feel bad if yours don’t. Its not a “must do.” Every pup is an individual. What works for one may not work for another. What most of us here on DFA want to do is help others find what works best for their pup. I’m always happy to do that. 🙂

  • Shawna

    Yentl ~~ I’m getting ready to dehydrate raw liver this weekend for treats.  I use a dehydrator with temperature adjustment and set it to no heat..  The liver is a bad enough smell..  I too would have to vacate to a hotel while tripe was dehydrating!!  NASTY

    Yes, “Balance It” is a website with a calculator that can be used for a fee.  I’ve never used the site so can’t comment on ease of use or cost..  Others have recommended the site though.  Let me know if you go there and what you think!!

  • Yentl


    Shawna, they get dehydrated tripe. I don’t dehydrate it myself.  Even I couldn’t live in a house where tripe was being dehydrated.

    When you say your friend has a calculator is it something that can be purchased? Is there a way to determine the nutrient content of a homemade diet either online or with software?

    I have tried raw tripe and tracheas from Mary Voss  at  greentripe.com. I can get Petkind dehydrated tripe a lot cheaper than the one from greentripe.com.

    Toxed, my dogs are rescues and they transitioned from kibble to lightly cooked and dehydrated. I have tried to give them raw tripe, chicken necks and tracheas. They didn’t like the raw and I have not made an extended effort to introduce raw into their diet.

    I dehydrate their food anywhere from 8 to 16 hours depending on whether it is being made into treats or if I want it stable without refrigeration or not.

    Thank you for your efforts to teach me about MSG.


  • Shawna

    Nice Yentl!!!!  Thank you!!  I don’t have a calculator to determine complete and balanced (my friend does) but I wasn’t interested in scrutinizing your diet to that extent..  Just wanted to know the ingredients.  I likes what I sees :).. 

    Do they ever get raw or dehydrated tripe..  I haven’t met a dog yet that didn’t go berzerk over tripe :)..

    Anyway, I think you could go far on this forum if you discussed the virtues of a diet like this.. 

    Thanks again!!

  • Toxed2loss


    First off, I’m glad that you finally posted what you feed. Here’s my 2¢. Balanced raw is better. However, we shouldn’t talk about MSG or aspartate as “inclusive” or “exclusive.” It’s a gradient. Think of it like a bucket. If you put in more than the bucket can hold, it overflows, and there’s a mess. For the sake of simplifying the explanation, the illustrative bucket in each person is a different size. Some people can handle lots of MSG/asp (aspartate) with very little “apparent” side effects. They have a large “bucket.” Other people’s bucket seems to be smaller than a thimble. This applies to pets too. So we bring attention to ingredients and practices that are “higher” in MSG/asp, and are more likely to illicit a response for the education of people or caregivers of individuals that are immune compromised.

    Even your dehydration process will break down some of those amino acid bonds, as will enzymolosis in raw food. One of the things you did not list was how long it was dehydrated for. Long, low heat can be just as problematic as some of the kibble manufacturing practices.

    For the majority of individuals, normal cooking processes don’t break down enough to cause a problem.

    Gelatin is manufactured in such a way that it ranks much higher on the scale. There will be too high a level of MSG/asp for anyone with a sensitivity, and unfortunately, enough to do damage to brain cells on individuals that show no outward signs of sensitivity. You must understand, the industry process for making “gelatin” is grossly more harsh than the old fashion process of making gelatin in your kitchen. They (the processes) are not at all the same thing.

  • Johnandchristo


    Be care full babe, my friend fed that too his dog once 
    and the dog bled from his rectum. 

  • Yentl

    Hi Shawna,

    Here is one of my recipes, feedback is welcomed!

    4 lbs boneless, skinless chicken thighs
    4 lbs chicken wings
    1 lb hearts
    1 lb liver
    1 lb pumpkin
    1 lb broccoli
    2 eggs
    8 oz sardines
    2 oz coconut oil
    4 oz ground chia seeds
    4 oz ground sunflower seeds
    ½ oz iodized salt

    This is double ground and dehydrated at 140 degrees F.
    Digestive enzymes are added to the finished product.


  • Shawna

    Okay Yentl ~~ I found a little information…

    Gelatin – “Gelatin is a mixture of peptides and proteins produced by partial hydrolysis of collagen” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

    The breakdown of collagen to produce proteins and peptides..  My guess is that this would be a significant source of free glutamic acid however I have no idea how much glutamic acid is truly in collagen? We do know it is a concentrated source of protein/amino acids though. Which by the way means that the high protein content of the Wysong food must be artificially increased by the inclusion of the gelatin.

    I DID find info that “meat meals” would have free glutamic acid BUT
    “Some free glutamic acid occurs naturally in whole foods that are consumed raw, or are cooked with the methods that people commonly utilize in their homes.” http://foodmiracles.blogspot.com/2011/05/msg-part-1-its-everywhere.html

    If true, EVERY kibble has a source of free glutamic acid.  As well as every raw protein food.  Obviously we can’t suggest that people and pets quit eating protein..  What should we tell them?

    Not only that, BUT EVERY food that has manufactured (aka cooked once) and then is cooked again in our homes should also be off limits — in the human food chain.. 

    What I plan on doing is exactly what I have been doing all along..  Mentioning ingredients that are likely to be concentrated sources of free glutamic/aspartic acids.  After all, excitotoxins are only problematic when consumed in excess of the individuals tolerance level.  I know people who are MSG sensitive that can consume cooked meats (even meats that have been cooked twice).

  • Shawna

    Yentl ~~ “Sidestep” — pretty funny in my opinion..

    When you ask a question worthy of answering, I will answer it… 

    As Toxed said, it is abundantly clear that you have no idea what you are talking about..  Which leads me to ask myself “what is Yentl trying to accomplish here”?  We have theories but as they are based on opinion and not facts I will keep them to myself …

    By the way — here’s just ONE way I know you are “grasping at straws”.  You write “Anythingcontaining “enzymes””)…  Gosh, wouldn’t that include raw foods?  Are you implying that raw foods are a source of excitotoxins?  I know what the material you are quoting actually means but you apparently don’t..?

    I’m also curious why you sidestep my questions about what exactly you feed your pets (the recipe/s) and why at any point in time, that I have seen, you haven’t discussed the virtues of a home prepared diet here on DFA?  I’m not a dummy Yentl…  I won’t make accusations but I do see what is going on here.  As does many others…

  • Shawna

    Yeah Toxed — I thought the same thing..  Which is why I called his/her bluff on the Brothers thread 🙂

    I’m not discouraged..  I actually LOL when I read Yentl’s post..  The absurdity caught my funny bone off guard :)….

    Addie ~~ You are an absolute DOLL!!!!!  Thank you!!!!!!!

  • Toxed2loss

    I agree with Addie, Shawna. It’s like Yentl is obsessed with discrediting Brother’s and Challenging you. I also found yentls selections of supposed “absolute proof” to show a profound lack of understanding of excitoxin pathology. It’s like Yentl doesn’t quite get it, and is grasping at straws… I say, ” if Yentl has any fact based, rational arguments, Yentl should bring them forward, instead of just making baseless, inflammatory accusations and insinuations.

  • Addie

    Yentl, why is it Shawna’s job to prove meat meals do not contain substantial amounts of 
    addictive excitatory neurotoxins such as freed glutamic acid? If you’re so interested, please do the research yourself, and share whatever info you find with the rest of the community. Until then, stop demanding she find info you are claiming to be factual. Shawna has been nothing but polite to you, and you continue to be rude and demanding in your posts to her. 

  • Addie

    Shawna, don’t worry about Yentl. He/she clearly has an obsession with Brother’s and a grudge against you for liking it. Why, we don’t know, but we do know most everyone on DFA supports all the info and help you bring to the community. I find it odd that at the same time as Yentl’s appearance there has been an influx in complaints about Brother’s, but hey, we can’t prove anything. I also find it odd that Yentl supposedly has a cook for his/her dogs, yet never shares what their diet actually consists of, and only has an issue with Brother’s containing meat meals, not the hundreds of other foods that also do. 

  • Yentl

    Hi Shawna,

    You just continue to sidestep my questions.

    I asked:

    Do you warn people that brothers complete contains the same excitotoxin?

    Isn’t this food closer to the ancestral diet than Brothers complete?

    Can you compare the levels of free glutamic and aspartic acid in
    brothers and this food for us, so we can evaluate the respective levels
    of excitotoxins?

    Here is your absolute proof that brothers complete contains the same excititoxin as wysong epigen 90. The below quotes are  taken from the same website you used as reference for your gelatin quote:

    of ingredients that often contain or produce processed free
    glutamic acid:


    Anything “enzyme modified”


    of ingredients that always contain processed free glutamic acid:
    Anything “…protein”
    hydrolyzed pea protein)

    following are ingredients suspected of containing or creating sufficient
    processed free glutamic acid to serve as MSG-reaction triggers in HIGHLY
    SENSITIVE people:

    anything Vitamin enriched “)

    that breaks down the protein in a product can produce MSG as it breaks down
    that protein.”)

    (“There are also chelates. 
    Minerals found individually and in some multi-vitamins, are usually joined to
    amino acids for better absorption, i.e., the minerals or multi-vitamins are chelated.  The following are names used for chelates that will contain MSG and/or aspartic acid and
    phenylalanine which are two of the main ingredients in MSG’s toxic cousin


    amino acid
    chelate (chelated with
    amino acids)
    potassium (or any other mineral ) citrate
    potassium (or any other mineral) aspartate
    potassium (or any other mineral) glutamate
    chelated with hydrolyzed protein,
    chelated with protein
    chelated with amino acids”)

    The above list does not even include the named meat meals you refer to but which I dare you to prove do not contain substantial amounts of addictive excitatory neurotoxins such as freed glutamic acid.

    Thank you,

  • Shawna

    Do they?  I wasn’t aware of that?

    Would you mind terribly elaborating?

  • Shaywe

    Don’t all kibbles contain freed glutamic acid?

    Why was this food singled out?

  • Shawna

    Tell you what Yentl — when you can find ABSOLUTE proof that “named meat meals” have substantial amounts of freed glutamic and aspartic acids in them then I will post it all over Brothers and every other food on this site that has a meal in it (which is most of them).. 

    Brothers (as I have mentioned before) had a known source when I started DFA..  When I mentioned it to Richard — he removed it from his line of foods…  He gets my support because he has earned it!!!!  And yes, in all honesty, I would like to see Brothers higher in protein..  However, it is easy and even desirable to add fresh foods to any kibble diet.  So, problem solved..

    By the way — did you notice this food has “chicken meal” in it too…  Meaning this food (if it is in substantial amounts in meals) has at least two sources.

    I’m still curious as to what exactly you feed your dogs?  The recipe/s…

  • Yentl

     Hi Shawna,

    This looks like a great dry dog food and you warn people that this food contains the excitotoxin free glutamic acid.

    Do you warn people that brothers complete contains the same excitotoxin?

    Isn’t this food closer to the ancestral diet than Brothers complete?

    When I posted about brothers complete containing free glutamic and aspartic acid  in the brothers forum you defended brothers to the max.

    Yet here is what looks like a much better food for a carnivore and all you have to say is gelatin contains free glutamic acid.

    Can you compare the levels of free glutamic and aspartic acid in brothers and this food for us, so we can evaluate the respective levels of excitotoxins?

    Thank you,

  • Yentl

     Hi Shawna,

    This looks like a great dry dog food and you warn people that this food contains the excitotoxin free glutamic acid.

    Do you warn people that brothers complete contains the same excitotoxin?

    Isn’t this food closer to the ancestral diet than Brothers complete?

    When I posted about brothers complete containing free glutamic and aspartic acid  in the brothers forum you defended brothers to the max.

    Yet here is what looks like a much better food for a carnivore and all you have to say is gelatin contains free glutamic acid.

    Can you compare the levels of free glutamic and aspartic acid in brothers and this food for us, so we can evaluate the respective levels of excitotoxins?

    Thank you,

  • Shawna

    LOL Labs!!!

    I KNOW, pretty soon we’re gonna have to grow or raise all our own food just to stay appropriately nourished and toxin free….. UGHHHH

  • Shawna

    Neezerfan ~~ well THANK YOU!!  What a nice thing for you to say — several nice things actually 🙂

    I hope you keep actively posting!!  I really enjoy the different personalities and viewpoints.. 

    Thanks again..  Have a great week 🙂

  • LabsRawesome

     Hey Shawna, Oh damn, now I have to throw out everything in my freezer, fridge, and pantry. lol

  • neezerfan

    Shawna, you’re great! I would never have known that. I always enjoy all the info you bring to this forum. Been reading a long time, this is my first post. I tell everyone I know to come to this website and READ EVERYTHING, not just the reviews. You, toxed and Richard make quite a group. And of course big thanks to Dr. Mike!

  • Shawna

    Just a little warning for those that are concerned about excitotoxins. 

    “Names of ingredients that always contain processed free glutamic acid:”  —  “Gelatin”   http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html

  • Marie

    I think it’s also marketed as being appropriate for cats as well…I’ll probably order a small bag and see.

    The protein level is NUTS!

    Oh, and not to nitpick, but: 

    “Not only is it grain free, it’s also potato free. And it possesses one the abundant meat contents of any dry dog food in our database.”

    Did you mean “one of the most”? 🙂  I’m trying to be helpful, honest.