Dr. Harvey’s Oracle Dog Food (Freeze-Dried)


Rating: ★★★★½

Dr. Harvey’s Oracle Dog Food receives the Advisor’s second-highest tier rating of 4.5 stars.

The Oracle product line includes 6 freeze-dried dog foods.

Each recipe below includes its related AAFCO nutrient profile when available on the product’s official webpage: Growth, Maintenance, All Life Stages, Supplemental or Unspecified.

Important: Because many websites do not reliably specify which Growth or All Life Stages recipes are safe for large breed puppies, we do not include that data in this report. Be sure to check actual packaging for that information.

  • Oracle Grain Free Fish Formula [A]
  • Oracle Whole Grain Fish Formula [A]
  • Oracle Whole Grain Beef Formula [A]
  • Oracle Grain Free Chicken Formula [A]
  • Oracle Grain Free Beef Formula (4 stars) [A]
  • Oracle Whole Grain Chicken Formula (4 stars) [A]

Dr. Harvey’s Oracle Grain Free Beef Formula was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Dr. Harvey's Oracle Grain Free Beef Formula

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 30% | Fat = 13% | Carbs = 49%

Ingredients: Beef, sweet potatoes, carrots, potatoes, flax seed, whole egg, pumpkin, broccoli, tricalcium phosphate, green beans, spinach, beets, cabbage, celery, kelp, coconut, apples, cranberries, parsley, dried yeast, lecithin, alfalfa, fenugreek, fennel, ginger, peppermint, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, vitamin E supplement, manganese proteinate, vitamin A acetate, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, rosemary extract, mixed tocopherols

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 6.6%

Red items indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
Guaranteed Analysis27%12%NA
Dry Matter Basis30%13%49%
Calorie Weighted Basis27%29%44%
Protein = 27% | Fat = 29% | Carbs = 44%

The first ingredient in this dog food is beef. Beef is defined as “the clean flesh derived from slaughtered cattle” and includes skeletal muscle or the muscle tissues of the tongue, diaphragm, heart or esophagus.1

Beef is naturally rich in all ten essential amino acids required by a dog to sustain life.

The second ingredient includes sweet potatoes. Sweet potatoes are a gluten-free source of complex carbohydrates in a dog food. They are naturally rich in dietary fiber and beta carotene.

The third ingredient lists carrots. Carrots are rich in beta-carotene, minerals and dietary fiber.

The fourth ingredient is potato. Potatoes can be considered a gluten-free source of digestible carbohydrates. Yet with the exception of perhaps their caloric content, potatoes are of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The fifth item is flaxseed, one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The sixth ingredient is whole egg. Eggs are easy to digest and have an exceptionally high biological value.

The seventh ingredient includes pumpkin. Pumpkin is a nutritious addition high in complex carbohydrates, beta-carotene and dietary fiber.

The eighth ingredient is broccoli. Broccoli is a healthy green vegetable and a member of the kale family. It’s notably rich in vitamin C and fiber and numerous other nutrients.

Like other cruciferous vegetables, broccoli is believed to provide anti-cancer benefits.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With three notable exceptions

First, we find coconut. Depending upon the quality of the raw material, coconut is rich in medium chain fatty acids.

Medium-chain triglycerides have been shown to improve cognitive function in older dogs.2

Because of its proven safety3 as well as its potential to help in the treatment of canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS) and chronic skin disorders, MCT can be considered a positive addition to this recipe.

Next, this recipe includes alfalfa, a flowering member of the pea family. Although alfalfa is high in protein (18%) and fiber, it’s uncommon to see it used in a dog food. This hay-family ingredient is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

And lastly, this food contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Dr. Harvey’s Oracle Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Dr. Harvey’s Oracle Dog Food looks like an above-average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 30%, a fat level of 13% and estimated carbohydrates of about 49%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 31% and a mean fat level of 16%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 46% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 51%.

Above-average protein. Near-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the flaxseed and alfalfa, this looks like the profile of a dry product containing a notable amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Dr. Harvey’s Oracle is a plant-based freeze-dried, raw dog food using a notable amount of named meats as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 4.5 stars.

Highly recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

Dr. Harvey’s Dog Food
Recall History

The following list (if present) includes all dog food recalls since 2009 directly related to this product line. If there are no recalls listed in this section, we have not yet reported any events.

You can view a complete list of all dog food recalls sorted by date. Or view the same list sorted alphabetically by brand.

To learn why our ratings have nothing to do with a product’s recall history, please visit our Dog Food Recalls FAQ page.

Get free dog food recall alerts sent to you by email. Subscribe to The Advisor’s recall notification list.

Dog Food Coupons
And Discounts

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A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

The Dog Food Advisor does not test dog food products.

We rely entirely on the integrity of the information provided by each company. As such, the accuracy of every review is directly dependent upon the specific data a company chooses to share.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

We rely on tips from readers. To report a product change or request an update of any review, please contact us using this form.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

However, we do receive a fee from Chewy.com for each purchase made as a direct result of a referral from our website. This fee is a fixed dollar amount and has nothing to do with the size of an order or the brand selected for purchase.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

12/07/2017 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  2. Pan Y et al, Dietary supplementation with medium-chain TAG has long-lasting cognition-enhancing effects in aged dogs, British Journal of Nutrition, Volume 103, Issue 12, June 2010, pp 1746-1754
  3. Matulka RA et al, Lack of toxicity by medium chain triglycerides (MCT) in canines during a 90-day feeding study,Food Chem Toxicol, Jan 2009, 47(1) 35-9.
  • Lori

    I haven’t had good luck with this food. I am only adding this comment because I tried so hard to find information about it and there wasn’t much available. I soaked each portion overnight and used hot water but most of it was excreted in its original form and one dog cropped up with a sore ear for the first time in her life. Coincidence? This was so easy to work with and I wanted very much to like it but I won’t be buying it again.

  • Carol Breckenridge

    Hi I am hoping someone can help me out. We have been feeding our dachshunds Dr. Harvey’s Canine “Miracle” dog food for several years. We only rotate between chicken and beef, so in the am they get beef, at night it’s chicken. We cook the meat ahead of time, package it in bags and freeze it. We also add the Health & Shine with the am feeding and used to add the Golden Years, but we have a range of 3 yrs to 15 yrs. now. We have one Senior that is having issues with his pancreas now. I have spoken with Dr. Harvey on more than one occasion to find out if “when you add your own protein” the mix is balanced and has all the minerals needed. I have yet to get a straight answer. I am reluctant to switch their food, but I also want to make sure they are eating a balanced diet. We are considering changing them to a dry food. Many years ago we used Honest Kitchen, it just because too expensive with 4 dogs. I welcome any comments or anyone who has experience with Dr. Harvey’s that might help us decide what to do to help keep our senior’s healthy.

  • Nalu-Rufus

    Thanks Betsy. I add about 10 oz. raw frozen to his THK already, and will probably do the same if I pick up some GF Oracle Tripe.

    Although THK is great, I’m looking to expand his menu a little bit and was just curious to hear any first-hand accounts of this option. The fact that the store is discontinuing it made me a little skeptical – they said they haven’t sold any in months; but I’m willing to bet that is mostly due to its price.

  • Betsy Greer

    I’ve used many of the Oracle products, including the Tripe. I didn’t feed it long term as I rotate foods often. My dogs liked it and did well on it. It rehydrated nicely and had some medium size chunks of tripe in it. You may want to consider adding some fresh, lean meat to it as the protein is rather low, particularly in the grain inclusive formula.

  • Nalu-Rufus

    Wow, just read through this entire comment thread, which had very little to do with Dr. Harvey’s Oracle, but a heated debate about The Honest Kitchen, which I’ve already been feeding for a year.

    Saw Oracle on clearance for 30% off at my local retailer today, which brought it closer to THK’s price (still $12.60/lb Oracle vs. $8.90/lb THK). Feeding a 65# dog good food really adds up! Anyway, I am tempted to go ahead and cycle him through a 3 lb. bag since they offer a tripe recipe, which is pretty unique amongst the dry food options out there.

    Has anyone here tried it? He’s never had tripe before, but I understand 100% of dogs love it…

  • USA Dog Treats

    Thank you Shawna!

    So far what I got from those articles is:

    – Type 1 diabetics should AVOID wheat gluten and probably ALL lectins. Whether they have a causal effect is not clear but once you have type 1 diabetes the incidence of wheat gluten antibodies increases dramatically in people over 35 years of age.

    I would have liked to seen a comparison of under 35 year old type 1 diabetics with the over 35 group.

    – Children should be fed mothers milk for as long as possible.
    And from reading some of the other things you have posted EVERYONE should probably avoid Cow’s Milk. Just make sure you are getting enough Vit D elsewhere.

    – Vit D has protective autoimmune properties and EVERYONE should make sure they are not deficient.

    – I even looked at the reference to Omega 3’s and it looks like another good reason to make sure you are getting enough EPA and DHA has been found.


    Thanks again!

  • Shawna

    Hey, since you are the go to guy for diabetes on the site I thought you might find this interesting.

    Some definitions first
    LADA = Latent autoimmune diabetes of adults
    Gliadin = is the name of the reactive gluten protein in wheat
    AGA = anti-gliadin antibodies

    “To summarize, we have observed that autoimmune diabetes with disease
    onset after the age of 35 is accompanied by the presence of IgG and IgA
    anti-gliadin antibodies and autoantibodies to thyroid peroxidase. These
    findings support the idea of autoimmunity association and suggest
    specific susceptibility to AGA antibody production in LADA patients,
    which could reflect changes in their mucosal barrier function.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808742/

    And check out the “C. Other Environmental Triggers” section of this paper http://physrev.physiology.org/content/91/1/79
    I find it all very very interesting!!! 🙂

  • Nic L

    I believe you and Shawna are correct! I didn’t know there was a difference, so thank you for educating me. Her issue was regurgitating bile (& sometimes food, but usually bile) if she consumed food with chicken or chicken fat. I realize now that I assumed it was the protein, and then added the fat to my list of intolerances since foods with no chicken protein also caused the symptom if they contained chicken fat. Had I thought this through, I would have realized that since all chicken based foods use chicken fat, it could be the fat only, not the protein. It’s a moot point for that very reason, but it could be an important distinction in the future. [Note: no regurgitation at all with no chicken protein or fat foods]

  • Shawna

    Once again you are very kind!! Thank you!!

    I totally agree with you that it is likely an intolerance versus allergy that Nic L is dealing with.

    And you are correct IgE or immonoglobulin E is what is seen in allergies while IgG and IgA are present in intolerances / sensitivities.

    I’m still learning too!!!

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi Shawna

    What little I know in this area I learned from you!!! And I obviously have A LOT more to learn:)

    I just thought that it might be an intolerance to the chicken fat instead of a food allergy.

    Until I started reading your stuff I thought a food intolerance was only what I described and a food allergy was immune related. Then I read you posting that there are food intolerances that ARE immune related but a different type of immune response than a food allergy. I think it has to do with Immune Globulins.

    Thanks for chiming in.

  • Shawna

    Hi USA,

    Food intolerances (or sensitivities) can go way beyond just digestive issues. Just one example — my grandson is gluten intolerant. His symptoms are severe diarrhea, pretty bad eczema and his lower lip gets severely chapped (cracked) while the upper lip is perfectly fine.

    Actually the list of symptoms for intolerances and sensitivities is quite diverse and extensive.

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi Nic L

    Regarding chicken fat, your dog can have a chicken fat intolerance which is different than a food allergy. The symptoms are usually different.

    Food allergies can cause inflamed ears, itching, and skin issues.

    Food intolerances can cause gas, bloating. diarrhea and vomiting.

    I wasn’t sure what you meant by “sensitivity to both chicken and chicken fat”. I just wanted you to be able to tell the difference between a food allergy and a food intolerance.

    Good Luck with your new Rotti!

  • Crazy4cats

    Hey… that sounds like my dogs’ diets as well. Especially the fuzzy stuff inside of the couch pillows! They turned three yesterday and they have finally narrowed it down to their food, socks and poop!

  • Shawna

    LOVE your description of you pup’s “well rounded” diet!!! 🙂 I needed a good laugh today!!!!

  • Nic L

    Thank you, Hound Dog Mom. That makes sense. It explains the discrepancy between my dog’s sensitivity to both chicken and chicken fat (both were eliminated separately using multible limited ingredient brands so that a surprise allergen couldn’t be the real culprit). Perhaps the fat simply wasn’t well enough rendered given my dog’s level of sensitivity. Thankfully my new Rott (1 yr old) hasn’t shown signs of any allergies or sensitivities yet. She has a diet that’s a little too well rounded – Fromm Lg Breed Puppy (looking for appropriate food to transition her to now), plus chewed dog toys, sandals, couch pillows, toilet paper holders, sticks, and for dessert… poop! Yummy!!! Clearly we’re working on boundaries (she’s been vet checked – worm free). Any grain free dry food suggestions for a young active Rott would be appreciated (other than Orijen/Acana – I can’t take the gas!). Also, my local stores have no stock of THK.

  • Shawna

    My Pom reacts to chicken protein but no reaction to chicken fat or chicken liver.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Nic –

    Theoretically, chicken fat (or any other fat) shouldn’t trigger an allergic reaction. Allergic reactions occur when the immune system reacts to a particular protein. Fat should be free of any protein (the key word here is should). However, if the fat isn’t clarified properly it’s quite possible for there to be residual protein which could certainly trigger a reaction.

  • Nic L

    For those who can’t have chicken, but want a higher protein & quality than Natural Balance, try Pinnacle Venison formula. It’s the best one I found for my last Rott, who couldn’t even have egg or chicken fat (apparently it’s widely believed that chicken allergies don’t carry over to chicken fat – which seems ridiculous to me).

  • theBCnut

    Not HDM, but I know it is one of her favorites, I believe it is her most favorite. I use it too. Two of mine do excellent on it and one may have a flaxseed intolerance, but only gets gunky ears on it and otherwise does great too. Mine really like the taste of it and will lick it off the floor if I spill some. The first time I used it my dogs got loose stools for about a day, so I recommend starting with half the recommended amount for a couple days.

  • Nancy Calloway

    Hello HDM – I am now studying PRE MIXES and at Dr. Harvey’s Oracle Review on DFA there is quite a discussion going a yr ago. You had ordered enough pre mix from “See Spot Live Longer” and it sounded like you’d be using it soon. WHAT WAS YOUR OPINION? I will appreciate knowing what your experience was.
    Thank you very much!!

  • Nancy Calloway

    Regina, how is the Honest chicken feeding going? I have a GSD too and have to be VERY careful, however, he can eat chicken. He even got over his diarrhea with HILLS RX WD formula which infers that geeze he can eat ANYTHING. (That stuff is horrible). I am extremely interested in Honest Kitchen and what might help is to know which formulas worked for you and which did not and HOW you ammended them. Although every dog is unitque, it would help since you have the same breed, because where your best luck is will be where I begin. Thank you in advance.
    And — have you used ANY of Dr. Harvey’s ORACLE products? Just curious. Thank you !

  • Betsy Greer

    Did you scroll down to the bottom of the Oracle page on the Dr. Harvey’s website? They list the ingredients for each formula, along with the feeding guidelines and nutrient analysis for each product on the Oracle home page.

    I’ve used Oracle and other Dr. Harvey products and have found the information I needed readily available.

  • Bobby dog

    Is this what you’re looking for? There are ingredient lists and GA’s towards the bottom of the page.


  • affenage

    Am i going nuts, or does Dr Harvey’s website neglect to provide all the
    essential information about Oracle. No ingredient list, no nutritional
    breakdown, no calorie count. This has to be the first time I ever had to
    email for information that is essential. I already have a bad taste in
    my mouth (no pun intended) because of this lack of disclosure. How the
    heck do they expect to sell this food if no one can see what is in it?

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m glad to see they have a new flavor! The grain free Tripe is actually one that Micah can eat.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi David DelPrete,

    Excellent find!! I have and use both the chicken and beef Oracle (both of which contain chicken), but had no idea that they had the new tripe formula you mentioned!

    Here are the ingredients: Tripe, Whole Egg, Rolled Oats, Sweet Potatoes, Carrots, Flax Seed Meal, Calcium Citrate, Barley, Spelt, Green Beans, Zucchini, Broccoli, Peas, Beets, Parsley, Dried Yeast, Lecithin, Alfalfa, Dried Kelp, Dried Ground Fenugreek, Dried Ground Fennel, Dried Ground Ginger, Dried Ground Peppermint, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Acetate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Mixed Tocopherols

  • David DelPrete

    Try new Dr. Harveys Tripe Oracle, no Chicken listed

  • Regina

    I agree. Every food I looked at has chicken in it and my GSD doesn’t do well on chicken so I stay away from it all together. I am feeding Honest Kitchen in rotation with Sojos and they don’t have chicken in it. I also add additional raw meat as I don’t believe they put enough into the bag that costs a lot of money. I spoke to Honest Kitchen rep about adding more meat and I was told that for every cop of honest kitchen I can add half a cop of additional raw meat. So that’s what I have been doing. My dog seems to like both Honest Kitchen and Sojos but I have to say he is favoring the Honest Kitchen more and to me it looks kind of strange but as long as he loves it I don’t care I will just keep making it for him.

  • Max’s mom

    Perfectly said

  • Pattyvaughn

    Me too! I understand that they do it so the ash content isn’t too high on high protein foods, but if they have to add a low ash meat, couldn’t they add something that every other dog isn’t allergic to. And call it what it is! It’s beef and chicken, not beef.

  • Max’s mom

    It really bugs me when the beef brand of any dog food has chicken as an ingredient. I’d love to see a line of Oracle that doesn’t include chicken.

  • Betsy Greer

    Use promo code RELAX24 for 15 percent off your entire order. Coupon expires this Friday, September 6, at midnight.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Thanks, that’s what I thought it said but didn’t want to speak on it because I couldn’t remember for certain. When I ordered it I got a bag that contained enough for 28 lbs. of food. I’ve never used the packets, so maybe what I had was the new stuff. I was really impressed – it may be my new favorite pre-mix!

  • Shawna

    I went to the site and looked at the new packaging. What I have is still the old packaging so may be different now??

    Here’s what the old packet said

    “The Dinner Mix reads
    “When mixed according to directions, See Spot Live Longer Homemade dinners are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages.”

    Yeah, I would like to see whole food too but I think Steve was having an issue with sourcing, quality control and product shelf stability. He’d find something that fit one but not the other criteria.

  • For freeze dried you have to check and see if the food is raw or cooked before the freeze drying process. Take Grandma Lucy’s for instance. It is lightly cooked first before freeze drying. It is not a raw product. Frozen raw will be less expensive per lb. It really depends on the ingredients as to whether which one is better as raw and freeze dried could be the same product. One with moisture and the other one without moisture.


  • AJ

    So what would be the difference in feeding raw frozen and freeze dried such as Dr. Harvey’s and witch would be better?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Did it say it makes an AAFCO compliant meal like on the website?

    I really hope he removes some of the synthetic vitamins and minerals and adds more whole foods. I really like his mix and I think I’ll use it again!

  • Shawna

    The pic wouldn’t post — tried from my phone and laptop… Grrr

    I did a second post and quoted the data. Disqus is apparently hiding that post?? I can see it in my post history though.

    Steve was considering some ingredient changes as well as packaging changes.

  • Shawna

    Good point!!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I can’t see the picture. 🙁

    I know he recently switched from the packets to bags. Was that the change?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Chicken definitely is rich in LA, however I don’t think that’s the reason chicken is included in the beef formula. Sojo’s, Addiction, The Honest Kitchen and I and Love and You (that I can think of off the top of my head) all have dehydrated single protein beef formulas. I honestly can’t think of a reason they’d include chicken other than to cut their costs…

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’d rather have chicken fat for that, just me.

  • Shawna

    I’m betting chicken is added for the AAFCO required omega 6 LA it supplies.

  • Shawna

    Not able to load pictures from phone or laptop it seems.. Ugh..

    The Dinner Mix reads
    “When mixed according to directions, See Spot Live Longer Homemade dinners are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages.”

    The Honest Kitchen Preference reads
    “Mix with raw or cooked meat for a balanced meal” but to be fair the box also says “Preference is intended for supplemental feeding only and is intended to be fed with added protein.”

  • Shawna

    Guess what I have.. I know Steve was thinking about a formula and possible packaging change so this may not be current available product but…. Hopefully the picture posts?? Having issues with my phone lately.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m still limiting Micah’s carbs, so it frosts me. What could it possible add that isn’t better added another way. I don’t want to pay these prices for dry potatoes. In fact, I really don’t want any more ingredients than absolutely necessary.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    My dogs don’t have issues with potatoes but it does bug me when dehydrated foods and pre-mixes contain potato (or legumes)…I’m just like why? Potatoes are the one thing I wish Urban Wolf didn’t contain – if they removed the white potato it would be the perfect pre-mix (imo). Same goes with the Grandma Lucy’s pre-mixes (and foods for that matter) I don’t see why they can’t drop the potato from the Artisan and chickpeas from the Pureformance.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I originally ordered it specifically for Micah and I felt rather stupid that I didn’t notice the chicken in the beef formula before I ordered it. I also got the fine ground Veg to Bowl and I’m trying to make up my mind whether I want to risk trying it on Micah because of the potato, grrr. I believe I can at least give it to both Gideon and Angel.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Glad to hear Gideon liked it. Maybe Wendy can tell us why there’s chicken in the beef formula.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Wendy –

    Unfortunately I don’t think you’re understanding the statement I was trying to make in my original post. I was merely pointing out that companies can disclose whether or not their mix creates an AAFCO compliant end product – not that they can label the mix as packaged as complete and balanced. Many companies do this – as pointed out previously. Unfortunately I just went through the last of my See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix a few days ago and finished off my Urban Wolf a few weeks ago so I can’t check to see what the actual packaging states, but regardless companies can and do make these statements on their websites.

    Because this is possible I feel obligated to question a company that doesn’t disclose this information in order to ensure nutritional adequacy. About a year and a half ago I purchased Dr. Harvey’s Veg-to-Bowl (at the time I am certain it wasn’t a balanced pre-mix). I emailed your customer service and they wouldn’t disclose to me via email the nutrient values I asked for. I have since noticed that you have added additional vitamins and minerals and it appears as if the Veg-to-Bowl mixes may be balanced. However, I still have to question your claim that all of your mixes exceed the AAFCO nutrient requirements due to the fact that on your website under the FAQ’s for the “Canine Health Formula” it is stated that the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the final product (with the addition of meat) is 1:1.1 – this does not conform to AAFCO nutrient requirements. To meet AAFCO nutrient requirements the C:P ratio must be between 1:1 and 2:1 – phosphorus cannot exceed calcium.

  • Betsy Greer

    I received my order ~ one bag each of chicken & beef ~ but, haven’t started using it yet. I recall from the samples that Bella really liked both ~ Sam thought they were weird. Bella definitely preferred it served warm rather than cold. As for my taste, I definitely thought the chicken looked and smelled better than the beef, but then I’m not the one eating it so what do I know.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’ve been giving Gideon the beef Oracle this week. It rehydrates about how I would expect it to, which is not as well as I would wish but well enough. Gideon really loves it! My other 2 want some too, but alas, they can’t have chicken and it’s in there. I think this would be an excellent travel food for him and I’ll use it again.

  • Sasha’s Mom

    Putting it on their website is NOT the same as putting it on the label. Websites can be evaluated and manufacturers can be asked to remove certain statements, from websites. But there is no grey area when it comes to labels. Products can be removed from shelves if the labels do not comply. Believe me, this IS true. You CANNOT state on the label that a food is complete and balanced after adding the meat. It is not allowed. Any company that puts that information on their label is not in compliance with AAFCO rules and guidelines.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi again Wendy –

    This isn’t be true.

    Know Better Petfoods Premixes state on their website:

    “Know Better Pet Food products meet and exceed AAFCO nutritional guidelines.”


    Urban Wolf states on their website:

    “Urban Wolf meets & exceeds AAFCO Guidelines”

    They also include a full nutrient analysis of the end product when prepared according to instructions.


    See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix states on their website:

    “See Spot Live Longer™ Homemade Dinner Mixes, combined with lean fresh meats (lightly cooked or raw), offer your dog a highly-nutritious and super-tasty dietthat is compliant with AAFCO and NRC standards, and best matches his canine ancestor’s diet.


    Furoshnikov’s Formulas State:

    “When prepared according to package directions, our products are formulated to meet nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for adult maintenance.”


    All of the above products are marketed as “pre-mixes” that are not complete and balanced without the addition of meat.

  • InkedMarie

    Thanks for responding!

  • Sasha’s Mom

    Just wanted to let you know that a company CANNOT put “complete and balanced” on the packaging EVEN if it is when the meat is added. This is NOT allowed. The rules for what can and cannot go on labels is very precise and difficult for consumers as well as manufacturers. As a manufacturer, we WANT to inform our customers about the benefits of our products. We have been making pre-mixes for over 30 years. Our mixes meet and far exceed AAFCO minimums when the meat is added. They are “complete and balanced”when the meat is added, but we CANNOT put that on the label. It’s crazy but that is the rule!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Wendy –

    Thank you for clearing up the confusion! 🙂

    I had read on the Great Life thread awhile back that the two companies were affiliated and because both listed a “Dr. Harvey” as founder I went with it. Good to know there’s no affiliation.

    BTW – I really like the new veg-to-bowl fine ground formula. Good job with that.

  • Sasha’s Mom

    Hi Everyone, I am the president of Dr. Harvey’s and we love this discussion! We are very proud of Oracle and very pleased that it received 5 stars on Dog Food Advisor. Oracle was a true labor of love and took years of planning. We feel we are now offering a truly remarkable “complete” alternative to homemade food. We have been advocates of “feeding fresh foods” to companion animals for over 30 years. Prior to Oracle we offered pre-mixes, Canine Health and Veg-to-Bowl, that allow guardians to make homemade food in a practical and healthful way.
    I jumped on here today because I wanted to clear up any confusion that there may be regarding Dr. Harvey and Great Life. We are NOT and have NEVER BEEN ASSOCIATED with Great Life. Dr. Harvey’s is the name of our company which is what everyone calls our founder, Dr. Harvey Cohen. http://www.drharveys.com/pages/about

    As another poster mentioned Great Life is associated with Dr. Elliot Harvey, who is has NO RELATION to OUR Dr. Harvey or to our company.

    We wish you and your companions the best of health always and we hope that you will try this exceptional food and our other healthy and pure products for companion animals.

    Yours in Truth and Health,

    Wendy Shankin-Cohen


    Dr. Harvey’s

  • InkedMarie

    Not that it was on my list but dr Harvey’s is off my list. Any company that won’t disclose won’t get my business (providing I hear about it)

  • Pattyvaughn

    LOL!! I’m glad you were able to disprove yourself, that gives me more confidence in Dr. Harvey’s

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Dr. Elliott Harvey, who is a master herbalist, is the founder and owner of Great Life.


    Dr. Harvey Cohen is the founder of of Dr. Harvey’s – he’s not a vet but a human chiropractor.


    Both go by “Dr. Harvey”.

    Whew that was confusing. So I’m thinking they aren’t related. Forget my previous post!

  • Pattyvaughn

    I love a mystery!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Actually, I’m doing a little digging (online) and the information I read on the Great Life thread may not have been accurate. Both Dr. Harvey’s and Great Life were founded by a “Dr. Harvey” however I’m thinking they may be two different Drs both by the name of Dr. Harvey. Now I’m just confused. I know someone posted they were related companies somewhere but maybe this is what caused the confusion. I’ll have to research this a bit more!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I didn’t know they were connected for the longest time either. They’re two separate companies but they’re associated somehow – I know Dr. Harvey has something to do with both of them. I’m sure the info is somewhere on the Great Life thread if you’re in the mood to dig. I used to feed Great Life years ago and really liked it – I never had any issues. However, I’ve started hearing some sketchy things and that “product withdrawal” they had not too long ago was so shady. I no longer recommend the food.

  • Pattyvaughn

    WOW! I didn’t know that. I think Great Life is pretty sketchy. That concerns me. I’m glad that when trying the Oracle and Veg to Bowl that I just got, neither one will be their sole food and neither one of them is kibbled.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Two of mine have chicken problems, but I’ll try it on the third starting tonight.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’m kind of late to this conversation but I’d go THK’s Love and Zeal. THK is a wonderful company, I’ve always had great experiences with their customer service, they have a lot of integrity (demonstrated by how they handled their recent recall), the products are certified human-grade and I respect their transparency. Oracle looks like a great food and I’ve used some Dr. Harvey’s pre-mixes and grooming products and liked them but the experience I had with their customer service was horrible – a couple years ago when I first tried the original Veg-to-Bowl I inquired about the calcium level and they wouldn’t disclose the information to me. Also, Dr. Harvey’s owns Great Life (which I used to feed and like) but has recently had some sketchy issues.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Let me know what you think of the Oracle. I’m planning on ordering some to try once I get through the rest of the Grandma Lucy’s. I didn’t like that all the formulas had chicken either. None of my dogs have issues with chicken but it annoys the heck out of me when dog food companies add chicken to everything – I can’t think of any other reason for this other than to lower their costs.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I got my Fine ground Veg to Bowl yesterday as well as the Oracle grain free beef. I was disappointed in the Oracle, I somehow failed to notice that it had chicken in it. I was hoping this would be a good food for traveling with dogs.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’ll have to check it out! I feel you on being brain dead – it’s been almost 6 weeks since I’ve had a day off from work or school. I wish I was getting a 4 day weekend, you’re lucky!

  • Shawna

    Oops, I could have sworn that you said you used balance it.. I haven’t used it but Dr. Becker has talked about it.
    I’ve been ultra brain dead lately… This four day weekend is very much needed!!!

  • losul

    Is performance the grain free pre-mix? I think I will probably still try it too. I’ll be using it with muscle, bone, and organ mixes anyway, so I don’t want it heavy on added vitamin/minerals anyway.

    Are you going to feed as is or pulvervize it? Lets us know how it looks coming out the back end.

  • beaglemom

    Yea, I’m not worried for my gang since we rotate constantly, it was more just something I noticed after the Sojos conversation and figured I’d share. I’m sure some people do use Sojos on a regular basis and that’s what bugs me, especially if they’re lying about it. Pays to do your research…

    We just opened the Pureformance tonight, and it really rehydrated nicely into some pretty good looking/smelling fruits & veggies. I may have to try some other formulas too 🙂

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Wow just saw this. Balanceit has a nutrient calculator?! That’s not what I used – I actually ran all the numbers on my recipes by hand (using values from the USDA Nutrient Database). I wish I knew about this! Thanks for the tip, I’m going to have to check it out. 🙂

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi beaglemom –

    I can’t find a nutrient profile for the Grandma Lucy’s pre-mixes, but looking at the ingredients list I would like to assume the end product would conform to the AAFCO nutrient profiles due to the many supplemental vitamins and minerals. You could certainly email them and ask – rather than asking if the pre-mix creates a balanced meal I would specifically ask if the pre-mix conforms to AAFCO nutrient standards when prepared per instructions.

    Again, as long as you’re utilizing a variety a pre-mixes I wouldn’t stress about whether or not each conforms to AAFCO standards. I would worry about whether or not the end product is balanced for someone who is using only one pre-mix for every meal for an extended period of time. I don’t use pre-mixes a whole lot but I always have about two on hand for when time is short – I currently have See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix and Wysong’s Call of the Wild. I’ve also recently used Urban Wolf, Dr. Harvey’s Veg-to-Bowl Fine Ground, THK’s Preference and Sojo’s GF. I don’t worry too much about whether or not the end product is precisely balanced as I use several pre-mixes and only feed them intermittently. I haven’t used GL’s pre-mixes yet but they’re on my list to try, I recently tried GL’s balanced foods and like them a lot (my new favorite dehydrated food!).

  • losul

    edit: woops nevermind

  • beaglemom

    Hey btw just something I noticed. I happen to also have a bag of the Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance premix that also doesn’t specify that it’s AAFCO compliant on the bag or website. I haven’t looked at the nutrient profile online (it wasn’t immediately obvious where it was…) but I’d be interested to know how this one stacks up too. They certainly seem a more honest company than Sojos so maybe they’re just inconsistent in advertising the AAFCO statement. Shouldn’t have to be this hard, lol.

  • beaglemom

    Aha the plot thickens… lol. Thanks for posting. This company seems a little fishy.

  • losul

    I found this Sojos review on Amazon. The original review was in 2006. Then scroll down to where the same person- D. Geiger(Vet?) comes back 5 years later with a follow up comment. According to Amazon, D. Geiger is verified as using his/her real name.


  • beaglemom

    No problem! I like to know as much as I can about this stuff before I give it to my dogs. I’m glad this was brought up again.

  • beaglemom

    Thanks for explaining. I feel like replying to this guy with what you said but… it probably wouldn’t do any good. I just hate being lied to. It will be a small part of our rotation and then probably no more.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Thanks for remembering and remembering to ask HDM about it.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi beaglemom –

    I do not believe that Sojo’s pre-mixes create a balanced meal, even with the addition of meat. That response they gave you is a little wishy-washy to me. Most pre-mixes that do meet AAFCO requirements with the addition of meat (i.e. The Honest Kitchen Preference and Urban Wolf) state on the packaging that the mix meets AAFCO nutrient requirements with the addition of meat. So the reply that they gave you that they can’t advertise that it meets AAFCO nutrient requirements isn’t true – my guess is that if it did meet AAFCO nutrient requirements with the addition of meat they would want to advertise that. Just looking at the ingredients it’s also clear it’s not complete – i.e. there’s no added vitamin e. The nutrient analysis states that the mix contains 21 IU per lb. (approx. 46 IU per kg) this does not meet the AAFCO’s minimum of 50 IU per kg as is, then factor in that the end product is 50% mix and 50% meat (no vitamin e) and you’re looking at something more along the lines of 23 IU per kg for the end product which is less than half the AAFCO minimum. Vitamin e is the first that jumped out at me, there are other minerals in the nutrient analysis that look like they may be deficient in the end product but I’d have to run the numbers to know for certain. I would be fine with using this pre-mix in a rotation (I have used it in the past) but I wouldn’t rely on it for an extended period of time.

  • InkedMarie

    I hear that. I had a sheltie who had something wrong with him…took him to vet tht day, June 2nd. Vet said he was fine; I disagreed. Two days later, was at er vets, I was right. Following week was at tha MA Veterinary Referral Hospital, put down on July 5 th. Three years on Friday.

  • beaglemom

    Here’s the response I got from Sojos finally.

    Thank you for contacting us with your questions. Our foods are formulated to meet AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profile for All Life Stages. However, since the Grain Free pre-mix does depend on the customer to add the meat to make it a complete, we cannot advertise it as a Complete Diet or as meeting AAFCO guidelines. But with the proper addition of protein, it will be a complete and well balanced diet, just like our Complete Recipes with Turkey or Beef.

    Please let me know if you have any further questions, or if we can help in any other way.

    Thanks again, and have a great day,


    HDM… you missed this discussion… but it came up that previously you had said something about the Sojos premixes appearing unbalanced? Can you explain why you thought that?

    Btw, welcome back! You’ve been in my thoughts. I also lost a middle-aged dog that went from normal to needing to be put down within 2 short weeks. It’s an incredible shock to the system 🙁

  • Cindy

    Betsy, I did not say that. I said, I won a case as ‘pro se’ but I did not say in Advertising. It was a case regarding mortgage fraud. That is funny that you work in courts. It was my personal case I won at a very high court against a very big bank in Arizona (imagine winning a case in Arizona…not so easy over there). I mentioned it to say that I understand a bit about law and I’m a bit educated, I don’t know everything, but enough to have a bit an idea sometimes and to know that there are many aspects to law. I also have worked as a paralegal with some lawyers in Portland OR in consumer law. But for years I have helped people with consumer law as well. Why I know about the Truth in Advertising law like this is because I have been friends with another person that is retired now but he was a judge at a very high appellate’s court in Oregon. He told me the Truth-in-Advertising thing that these pet food companies cannot just blatantly lie about stuff. I also had lawyer friends too so I have been talking and hearing a lot about law and how things are set up. The past couple of years I decided not to work in law anymore, as I simply cannot stand courts….grrr.rrrr…I could see myself working in legal aid, but all of these offices have closed around here…since law is such a headache, it is easier to do my business now…I sell books and other products as well. I also work on a Master Degree.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi Cindy,

    Are you a lawyer? When you said that you won a pro se truth in advertising case at the state court of appears, that statement just piqued my curiosity as I work in the courts ~ criminal division, not civil. What sort of case was it that you were fighting?

  • InkedMarie

    not sure if you remember but I had an Acer prior to this. If I only had 50 or so emails, it could take up to 20 minutes for the emails to load. On my iPad, 300 emails are instantly. I love mine!

  • Cindy

    Are you kidding me…

  • Shawna

    Technology is challenging me every step of the way right now…. Tried to post a pic on DFA from my phone and DFA isn’t working on my phone AGAIN… Etc etc et
    Anyway…..I just today bought a trial size box of Preference and of Love. I looked at the box and for what it’s worth it says “FDA inspected facility” not USDA.

    Grrr, I’ll try the pic again tomorrow. I’ve had it with technology today…

  • Cindy

    Regarding Primal and China: It looks like to me based on the website that they had imported something from China in 2010, so on their website they claim they don’t import from China. It is possible that they DID but not anymore and they imported the sunflower seeds. I did send them an email to find out. Don’t like that. But it looks like it it might be true that Morasch meats makes their product based on the link.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, LOOK AT THIS; I have found this online that states “Primal pet food/Morasch meats imports from China, there is a trace online that they have imported something from CHINA????….How is this possible when they say they don’t buy from China?…Here is a trace…it says that Primal pet food/Morasch meats imported something from QINGDAO SUNFINE COMPANY LTD. from China!!!!Are these people all liars or am I going nuts??…This is a SEED company. Looks like Primal is buying seeds from them from China, but claims that they don’t buy from China!!!!

  • Cindy

    I’m a bit confused if Primal is made or not by Morasch meats now by reading all of it. A pet store owner told me that. But the product is similar like the NW naturals. They say it is controlled by CA but Morasch meats is in OR. Maybe they make some food in their own plant? It is a bit confusing.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, Primal is made by Morasch meats, I know this because I live in the Northwest. They are out of Portland. Morasch meats sell meats for humans, USDA meats. Morasch Meats OWN their plant and they OWN Northwest naturals and MAKE Primal dog food, from what I have been told. So the plant must be USDA inspected as it is for sure a human plant.

  • Shawna

    LOL!! Practice makes perfect…
    Sometimes I have to refine my search criteria many different times before I find useful information. Example, when I was trying to find research on leaky gut it was darn near impossible to find anything. After much persistence I tried “zonulin gut permeability” and BAMMMM tons of research on the topic…and much of it even used the term leaky gut… Ughhh

  • Cindy

    THK says now on the label:
    “This product is made with 100% human food-grade ingredients. It contains no animal feed grade ingredients and is made in a USDA- inspected facility, but is intended for your dog to eat, not you!”

    People on this forum stated that the USDA inspected plant is that big of a deal, while I believe the bigger deal is origin of ingredients and quality, all these words and certifications, may not mean that much; of course it sounds good, but it is more PR than anything else to me. If the company has the money, of course they should be certified like that, but it doesn’t mean that there are doing things any different than required by USDA when not ‘certified’ or ‘inspected’. Main point is the food is human grade to me too.

  • Shawna

    I still haven’t been able to find ANYTHING official or from and official site but it’s getting late.. Gonna have to pick this up again tomorrow after my chiropractor appt..

    I did find that Primal claims their facility is USDA inspected too.

    “Our manufacturing facilities are USDA and California State Department of Agriculture inspected” http://www.primalpetfoods.com/education/foodsafety

  • Cindy

    Shawna, the article you have posted regarding Truth and Lending Act, got in my opinion incorrectly construed by Susan Thixton: It states:

    “Directly from the pages of The Federal Trace Commission’s website, “Advertising must be truthful and non-deceptive”. To the complete opposite, AAFCO (American Association of Feed Control Officials) regulations state “the label of a pet food may include an unqualified claim, directly or indirectly””

    Susan states that the law ‘Truth and Lending’ doesn’t apply, based on these statements. However, she is wrong, as it is not legally contrary in all instances when the Federal Law states that advertisement must be truthful and the label may include unqualified claims, as the word MAY is being used and the word ‘unqualified’.

    CONCLUSION: It uses the words ‘unqualified claims’ not ‘false claims’. What Evanger did was COMPLETLY FALSE AND MISLEADING, way beyond ‘unqualified claims’. Unqualified means without qualification, not absolute, something like that. Unqualified means rather that you may not be able to back up your claim, such as for instance you call a product ‘healthy’. When you say this is pork and it is in reality fish it is a false claim and your statement is misleading and deceptive, legally MISREPRESENTATION/FRAUD. In other words, I can say about a pet product easily ‘it is good for your dog’, but when I have a human product, I MUST back up my claim. However, I CANNOT straight up lie, but it is ok to say something which is not 100% proven.

  • Shawna

    I agree Betsy!! Thanks for posting this..

  • Shawna

    “Made in the USA in our own USDA-Inspected plant” http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold

    All be darned!!

    Some additional info from Drs Foster and Smith justifying your comments about USDA and labeling..

    “United States Department of Agriculture

    The USDA is involved with regulations concerning pet food labeling and identification and the approval of pet food ingredients. USDA regulations also provide for a voluntary inspection of canned pet foods. These Voluntary Inspection Regulations specify the amount of meat ingredients which must be used in the product, along with minimum nutrient requirements and label specifications. Manufacturers that undergo this inspection may apply an inspection seal to the label. This option is not widely used.” http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+2244&aid=2645

    Obviously I am incorrect in some, if not all, of my thoughts. But I would REALLY like to see something on an official website about this 🙁

    THK says that their meats are USDA inspected but a quick search didn’t pull anything up about the facility being inspected?

  • Cindy

    Here is an article about how the USDA works, the ‘dogs stew’ states that each week they must pass the USDA inspection, which means someone comes over and inspects what they do from the USDA, Fromm told me similar things:

    Our USDA kitchen is managed under strict guidelines to ensure our foods are kept at proper temperatures, are stored correctly and handled in the most sanitary way possible. Each week, we must pass rigorous government inspections in order to remain operational. Great care is taken to maintain the high standards required by the USDA in the handling, preparation and storage of foods – ensuring that only the finest quality comes out of the Holiday Holistic Pets kitchen. All of the ingredients in Doc’s Stew are easy for the body to absorb, utilize, assimilate and eliminate. Doc’s Stew is simmered at a very low temperature to make sure that the ingredients retain all of their nutrients. When food is carefully prepared and made up of FRESH high quality, nutrient dense ingredients; it becomes unnecessary to add a slew of isolated vitamins and minerals to exceed AAFCO standards. This is why Doc’s Stew boasts the shortest but synergistically complete ingredient panel.

    To ensure the safety of your pet, our attention to special details is particularly important.

    1. All ingredients are correctly labeled, certified as natural and approved for human consumption
    2. Keeping ingredients sanitary, in proper containers and off the floor.
    3. Every surface which contacts a product must be examined for potential microbial growth.
    4. Guidelines for plumbing, and access for workers to have hot running water and hand sanitizers.
    5. All staff must wear service gloves, hair and beard nets, and clean coats throughout every station in the facility.
    6. Perishable items such as meats and vegetables must be stored at temperatures recommended by the USDA guidelines for safety. Thermometers are in constant check.

  • Cindy

    Exactly, there is a big history of deception on their part, beside my dogs don’t like their food.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, I understand the article regarding “Truth in Advertising”, and have worked in law,in fact won a case myself at the an appellate state court pro se; I understand law and I understand there is never ONE straight answer.

    But the FDA HAS stepped in with Evanger and has asked them to NOT do that label the product one way which is inconsistent with the actual product.
    The reality is that such act of Evanger is legally ‘deceptive’, ‘fraudulent’, and ‘defrauds the costumer’. It is my understanding of the law, that the laws for human food vs. the laws for pet foods that there is a difference; laws for the pet food industry are generally more lenient.

    But there are other laws in this country that are based on Fraud which can be even considered legally as a crime. Crime or civil issue; it is ILLEGAL to be deceptive, act fraudulent, defraud costumers, betray others etc. There are federal and state laws that prohibit that. Pet food or not, doesn’t matter.

    Perhaps if the issue would have happened with human food the FDA would have sued them and fined them, but since it has happened with pet food, they simply sent them a letter asking not to do it anymore; as it appears to me.

    The USA is much more lenient than Europe though, and there are exceptions, however, what Evanger did was deceptive, CANNOT do that! I cannot sell you a toy for your dog and claim it is made out of rubber and it is in fact porcelain. Just because it is a dog toy doesn’t invalidate other laws that apply as well.

    Regarding USDA inspections; yes there are inspectors on site, that is what Fromm has told me. I don’t know if they come over randomly or they are there permanently. But they are on site.

  • Pattyvaughn

    From the stuff I’ve read about them, I equate feeding Evangers with offering my dog a sun bloated carcass. He might choose to eat that, or at least roll in it, if left to his own devices, but I certainly would not offer it to him.

  • Betsy Greer

    Evanger’s is more than just sketchy. I’d never buy their products. They consistently have horrible corrupt business practices.

    Here the Illinois State Court of Appeals upholds the Circuit Court’s judgment against Evangers (the order outlines many of the putrid conditions of the businesses property dating back to 2006, but as recently as 2008) http://www.state.il.us/court/R23_Orders/AppellateCourt/2012/1stDistrict/1113100_R23.pdf; and here, the bad business practices continue with the owner of the company stealing power totaling nearly 2M and being charged with same in February of 2013, as well as bribery. Prior to that, he and his wife were charged with money laundering, etc., in 2010, and that case remains pending. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-09/news/chi-man-accused-of-trying-to-bribe-witness-20130209_1_bribe-witness-power-lines-gas-flow.

    Sorry, got off on an Evanger’s rant there. Grrr….

  • Cindy

    Shawna, when you say that “USDA inspects slaughter houses”, I understand that is what they do. But does that mean that The Honest Kitchen is produced in a slaughter house, as the entire conversation was that people here on this forum made a big deal about that THK food is produced ‘in a USDA inspected facility’.

    Shawna, they have an inspector on site at the Fromm facility to inspect the food, probably it is the meat and they make sure they follow their guidelines, so is the Fromm facility a ‘slaughter house’ too according to you, as their products are ‘USDA inspected and produced in their USDA inspected plant’,, same with THK.
    Bottom line is both companies state the same; not only human grade ingredients USDA inspected, their facilities are USDA inspected as well.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’ve been practicing googlese. I’m not very good at it, but I am practicing.

  • Betsy Greer

    I don’t know much about this, Shawna, but I was looking at THK’s site and found a page on product quality. Here it is: http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/the-benefits/product-quality. They mention that they are adhering to HACCP food safety regulations. HACCP is Hazard Analysis Critical Control Points which appears to be some relatively new standard of food processing guidelines established in the US by the FDA; but those same processes are already established in Europe and other countries ~ apparently just new here. http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/HACCP/default.htm. Now, how new, I don’t know; but this is the first time I’ve heard it come up in dog food manufacturing.

    The more I read about THK, the more impressed I am with them as a company. They really appear to have very high standards for their transparency. They even have quality control spec sheets posted online. I’ve used Mulligan Stew baked kibble before and while there may be others that I’m unaware of, they’re the only other company I’ve ever seen who posted their quality control spec sheets online.

  • Shawna

    Thanks again Patty…. You’ve been rocking the sources out today!!!

  • Pattyvaughn

    When Evangers was caught, it was because someone who had a dog with allergies used their canned duck, which their dog was not allergic to, but the dog had a bad reaction, so they sent the food off for DNA testing.

  • Shawna

    True, I completely agree. But Pied Piper and other food packers/manufacturers don’t slaughter animals. They source their meals and whole meats already slaughtered.

    Edit — in fact, Pied Piper (they have since been bought out) stated to Dr. Mike that they didn’t have any fresh meat in their facility. They only worked with meat meals. They made foods for Nature’s Variety, Brothers Complete and …… crap, mental blocking on the third. It was that third company that bought the Pied Piper plant.. Just remembered — Great Life..

  • Shawna

    I still think you have it a little wrong Cindy. USDA inspects slaughter houses (and per Patty’s link, egg suppliers).

    My hubby is an electrician and worked at different Tyson plants for two years. I asked him — the inspectors at the plants he was at had to “inspect the cleanliness of the plant” and there’s inspectors on the “kill floor” and “roaming the plant”. I didn’t know this — if for example cancerous tissue is suspected the inspector is called and that part of the plant is “isolated”. Any meat that came into contact with the contaminated beef is removed.

    Tyson renders the poultry it discards (per one of the manufacturers of dog food that has been on here before and supplied a Tyson brochure) and that rendered (chicken meal etc) meat is purchased by kibble manufacturers. The plant that manufactures the kibble starts with the ingredients and extrudes or bakes it to make the kibble. I don’t think there are USDA inspectors at these facilities. So when Evanger mislabeled their product it was a random inspection by the FDA that caught it.

    I remember Susan Thixton had some data about the Truth in Advertising laws on her website so I googled it. Here’s what she says

    “Federal Trade Commission Act Laws say one thing; AAFCO Pet Food regulations say something completely different. Laws that require advertisers of every other product sold in the U.S. to be truthful, do not apply to dog food or cat food.” http://www.examiner.com/article/truth-advertising-laws-do-not-apply-to-pet-food-2

    She goes on to explain why this is.

  • Cindy

    Shawna, funny that you mention Evanger, I was not surprised when this came out, there are some companies out there which have not been truthful. I would for sure never buy their food.
    There is a law which is the “Truth-In-Advertising Act” which says that these companies they cannot lie and mislabel products. They have to be upfront with costumers within the guidelines. It is the FDA that writes these letters and tests those foods and double checks things. But they do that randomly with all companies, has nothing to do with an USDA inspected facilities. But when they have an inspector on site, the inspector will of course see if they put pork and beef in the food and label it as lamb. So if you have an inspected facility it is unlikely that those things get by on the first place.
    USDA is on site for the inspected facilities, FDA off site for all.

  • Cindy
  • Cindy

    OK, they don’t legally have to test for toxins etc. THK has a third party doing testing regarding bacteria for them, in comparison, Fromm has a third party lab as well as In-House testing. The additionally test for toxins as well, I’m not aware that THK does.
    Not sure what the other companies do in comparison.
    Below is a statement of a company that uses USDA that states (as I thought) it is very expensive to run an inspected facility;

    And it is also the USDA that inspects labeling on site; looks to me that they have agencies below them as well; It looks to me the person on site makes sure that the things on the floor gets handled property. FDA doesn’t seem to be on site, they seem to be off site.
    Here is how the ‘ecofriendly food company’ puts it:

    “USDA-inspected means that we have a USDA FSIS inspector on-site whenever we are slaughtering or processing animals.

    “The Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) is the public health agency in the U.S. Department of Agriculture responsible for ensuring that the nation’s commercial supply of meat, poultry, and egg products is safe, wholesome, and correctly labeled and packaged.”

    While the FSIS often gets a bad rap these days, we must remember that America has one of the safest food supplies in the world. The FSIS seal-of-approval on our meats ensures the highest standard of safety for our customers and allows us to sell across state lines. It is very expensive to establish and operate a USDA-inspected facility, but we believe this is the only way that we can truly affect large-scale change of our nation’s food system. If we want to compete with the big boys, we have to play by the big boys’ rules.”

    Here are the USDA facility guidelines.


  • Pattyvaughn

    I tried googling “what does USDA inspect” Wiki had a decent answer, the USDA site was next to useless, but the FDA site had this


    Spells it out pretty well.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Well, that is certainly interesting. I wonder how it will go over with my formerly picky pooch.

  • Betsy Greer

    Well, of course I haven’t seen the “end product,” but Bella ate Oracle Beef for dinner tonight and she snarfed every bit of the stuff up and licked the bowl clean.

    Sam, on the other hand, wants absolutely nothing to do with it. I cleaned out his bowl and refilled in with Dr. Tim’s GF Kinesis and now he’s eating.

  • Shawna

    I thought USDA only inspected meat processing plants not the cannaries or Kelloggs cereal plants as an example? I think a slick one that some try to get by with — any meat being processed in a packing plant will be “USDA Inspected” but that doesn’t mean that it passed inspection…

    It’s the FDA that handle mislabeling issues – or, at least, the ones that hand down the warning letters etc. State AAFCO can investigate. When Evangers was busted for having the wrong protein in a food it was the FDA that issued the warning letter. It is the FDA that also does random testing of foods. The last manuf., Abady, to do a voluntary recall did so because the FDA found salmonella in the food…

    As far as toxins, THK would have to adhere to the same guidelines as what is set for foods sold to humans –

  • Pattyvaughn

    I used to always post from my iPod and that took getting used to. Now that I have my laptop, I hardly ever post from my iPod anymore, but I always check my email from my iPod.

  • Shawna

    LOL 🙂 Yeah, I’d rather use my phone than the iPad.. I’m thinking about selling it for what I still owe on it… I use it about once or twice a week for less than an hour. GREAT investment for me —– NOT :)…

  • Shawna

    I’m not worried either as it is a small part of my rotation :)…

  • Shawna

    Thanks bunches Patty and sorry Dr. Harvey’s!! Harvey’s must have stuck in my head due to it being the title of the thread?? I would agree about Sojo’s — especially if it isn’t fully digested.. I have to hydrate it and then process it further so my dogs can digest it —- despite the fact that I add enzymes at ever meal…

  • Pattyvaughn

    Let us know what you find.

  • beaglemom

    Doesn’t answer my question about what’s not balanced, though. I’m going to do some digging.

  • Pattyvaughn

    There you go.

  • beaglemom

    No idea, there’s no mention of it on the bag or their website… interesting.

  • InkedMarie

    If possible, I’d love a coupon. I’d like to try raw boost and money off always helps!

  • InkedMarie

    I know you don’t like yours but I love my iPad! Posting from it now. Have a great weekend !!

  • Pattyvaughn

    What does the AAFCO statement say?

  • beaglemom

    haha, if it makes you feel any better I ordered a 3 lb beef grain-free (haven’t tried it yet either) and I really need more dog food now like I need a hole in the head.

  • Cindy

    USDA inspected facility that means they have someone on site to assure everything goes according to protocol. For instance when food falls down on the ground they have to throw it away. I believe the reason why some of the better food companies are not USDA inspected because it is a cost factor. However, USDA inspected doesn’t mean they detect salmonella, as they don’t test for those, testing of such is seperate. They also don’t test for toxins and other things. My understanding is it is more about how the food is processed and they double check labeling, so if they say there is duck in the food, that they put duck in it and not something else. It is just a guarantee that it goes according to protocol according to government standard.

  • beaglemom

    Hmm I wonder what isn’t balanced about it… naturally, I just bought a 3 lb bag last week. I rotate all the time so it won’t be an issue for us… but it’s still unfortunate if it really is unbalanced since I’m sure there are people using it day in and day out.

  • Pattyvaughn

    It’s Sojo’s that she doesn’t think is complete and balanced.


  • Betsy Greer

    Thanks, Sandy! I know I chose the VE over Nutrisca because it didn’t have chickpeas and was a better value. I know they’ll enjoy. I’m OK with it too, even if it can be rehydrated. Seems like I tried NV, but didn’t think of rehydrating it at the time. I’m getting to the point where I’ve dabbled in so much dog food, I’m having trouble remembering what was what.

    Speaking of NV, I just got a Petflow order and picked up 10 of their .88 lb trial size bags of NV Raw Boost. They cost .99 cents each and each bag has a $4.00 coupon on the back and the bag that the coupon is to be used on must be one pound or larger. They’re practically paying us to buy their food! The coupons have no expiration date that I could find, either. Once I use the trials, I’ll put the coupons up for grabs. : )

  • VE doesn’t rehydrate well at all! It’s more like a jerky texture. Nutrisca and Instinct freeze dried have the same texture as Stella & Chewy’s. DNA didn’t rehydrate well either. It turned from a crouton to a fruit cake consistency.

  • Mary Lou

    The Primal (at least this one) rehydrates great! It crumbles easily, and then just add as much water as you’d like. I used to mix it with Orijen and freeze it in a Kong. I stole that idea from HDM. : ) Now I mix it with NV frozen duck raw bites for his evening meal.

    We did Stella & Chewy’s for a long time, and tried Ziwi Peak as well. The Primal is my favorite to date.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi Mary Lou,

    Thanks! Until your post, I didn’t realized that Primal could be rehydrated! I’m wanting to “force” a little more water on my Cavalier and thought this would be a good way to do it. I’ll check out Primal as well. You’ve got me thinking now because I’ve got some Vital Essentials on the way and am thinking now maybe that can be rehydrated as well. I fed ZiwiPeak before, and didn’t think about trying to rehydrate that, so other than that dehydrated and freeze-dried foods are a little new to me. : )

  • Shawna

    Maybe when she’s feeling better we can have her clarify for us??? 🙁

    I’m headin out to pick up my grandbabies and meet the in-laws for dinner. Have a great evening everyone!!

    PS — I haven’t been able to post from my android phone or from my iPad lately?? Anyone else having troubles??

  • Cindy

    OK, I see HDM is very popular; that is cool. I remember her saying a couple of times she liked Dr. Harvey vegetables as well as she tried samples of Grandma Lucy and liked them too. But of course she may have said other things as well..

  • Shawna

    HDM is what we lovingly call Hound Dog Mom.. She’s a raw feeder and has several recipes that she has run through balanceit.com(s) nutrient calculator to ensure balance. It seems to me that she said she didn’t think the food would make a balanced diet by looking at the ingredient list. Again, I could be wrong about that though. I was hoping someone else remembered the comment as well…??

  • Cindy

    Exactly it depends on the person making the food. THK has a good PR but it doesn’t give you a guarantee the food is superior to others. In analogy, I know farmers they do organic practices but are not certified organic, as they don’t like to do the paper work and pay the fees. Their cows, their milk and produce though is all organic. When you go to a Health food store, only I believe it is 50% has to be organic and they can legally say ‘certified organic’. I think it is not always logical how it all works and the ‘words’ don’t always mean what they seem 100%.
    I don’t trust Grandma Lucy 100%, I trust probably more Dr. Harvey, and I know Fromm has been 100% honest. Again, you gonna have to go with what you know and your gut.

  • Shawna

    I’ve been accused, more than once, of being the very opposite of succinct. So —– THANK YOU 🙂 Hee hee

  • Mary Lou

    Hi Betsy ~ I didn’t read through all these posts; so may be jumping in. From the bit I glanced at, I wanted to mention that Dupree is having great success with Primal freeze-dried Turkey & Sardine. The protein is 61% and the fat is 26%. Smells yummy, too. Sorry if this is off topic. I just don’t have the time to read all the posts. : )

  • Betsy Greer

    That’s the exact point I was trying to make, but you’re significantly more succinct than I!

  • Shawna

    It is true that they don’t make their own food but the food is prepared in a facility that produces foods for human beings. That is the only reason they can legally claim, on their packaging, that the food is human grade —- and the reason we know beyond any doubt the food is really human quality.

    You are absolutely right, in my opinion, that other companies use human quality ingredients but because they are produced in factories that make pet food they can not claim their food is human grade. That said, I don’t think production in a pet food facility makes a food inferior but it does give a less than honest manufacturer the opportunity to make dishonest claims. I don’t think Fromm or Horizon or Orijen, as examples, would but I do believe there is likely some out there that might??

  • Cindy

    Shawna, what do you mean by HDM and the statement?

  • Shawna

    Seems to me I remember HDM saying that she didn’t see how the food could be balanced from the ingredient list. Admittedly I may be making that up in my head though :)…

  • Pattyvaughn

    Thanks Betsy, I just ordered Oracle and ground Veg a Bowl.

  • Cindy

    Betsy, Fromm plant is also USDA inspected, and they are using meals in their food, chicken meal, for instance, it is not approved for human consumption of course. So regarding transparency, it doesn’t mean it is human grade or not 100% if the food is made in a human grade USDA inspected facility or not. It simply means that the government comes in and inspects the food just like the inspect the food the same in other facilities for humans. They have to hold the same standards like for making human food, without having all the ingredients ‘human grade’. It has more to do with the process. For instance, they cannot use expired meats and put it into their food if it is USDA inspected, just like for humans. I have heard from companies that they follow the same process USDA inspected or not, they just don’t want to do the paper work. Again, this doesn’t have necessary anything to do with the end product, USDA inspected or not.

  • Cindy

    Grandma Lucy state on their website multiple times that all of their products are human grade and USDA inspected. I did not see that Grandma Lucy’s own manufacturing plant is USDA inspected. The Honest Kitchen doesn’t have their own plant but the plant is USDA inspected. I know that Fromm has its own manufacturing plant AND the ingredients ((except the meals) are USDA inspected AND their plant is also USDA inspected, but we are talking here dried food here not the kibble. So I don’t know about the others. It looks to me that it is a plus for the Honest Kitchen to have their food made in a USDA inspected plant, but it is a minus that they don’t have their own plant and don’t purchase their ingredients more locally.
    Every company has its pro and cons, based on what you know is what you have to base your decision on. I have been to other countries, many of them, including Third World countries. I don’t think it is right, now someone else makes an issue about having the food made in an USDA inspected facility or not, I think it is more important where the products are sourced, that they are human grade and that they actually make their OWN food so they can control what goes into their food.
    Does it mean one is better than the other regarding the end result? Not necessary, we cannot know unless we would do extensive lab testing, we all have to trust our gut feeling and go by what we know.

  • Betsy Greer

    It sounds as though Grandma Lucy’s may purchase ingredients that have been USDA inspected on the front end, but the product isn’t manufactured in a human food facility that requires the ingredients to be human grade.

    That’s that transparency thing. It’s sort of answering the question in a round about sort of way ~ answering with what you want to hear, but avoiding what might not sound as good and therefore, not answering the question.

  • Cindy

    Excuse me, just because one can legally say it is human grade and the other one doesn’t has anything to do with the end product? Words don’t create the product.

    All the companies I have listed say they produce their products with human grade ingredients.
    I have received an email from Grandma Lucy dated 6/27/2013, where they claim their products are all human grade, in fact they purchase their ingredients from Restaurant suppliers for humans:

    “Thank you for your interest in Grandma Lucy’s food and ingredients. Here is an answer from our website under FAQ. The ingredient map will show that our bananas and papayas do come from South America. We do not use any ingredients from China.

    Q: Where are your ingredients sourced?

    A: All of our ingredients are human-grade, USDA inspected and approved. We take every opportunity to purchase raw fruits, vegetables and meats from local suppliers. Suppliers that are responsible for supplying quality ingredients to some of those most respected restaurants and markets in California. Over 87% of our ingredients are grown domestically and the others are from small farms in countries such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada. We constantly search high and low for the best possible ingredients and will continue to use the very same ingredients you eat at home. Please take a look at our ingredient map for a complete listing of all of our amazing ingredients.”

  • Betsy Greer

    I was interested in Grandma Lucy’s as well and I know that Dave’s Hounds mentioned that he used the Pureformance and liked it; but for the Artisian, the protein is awfully low at 26% for the chicken and lamb; venison is 28%; and bison is better at 30%.

    The protein in the Pureformance is much better, but I’m going to steer clear of those chickpeas.

  • Cindy

    Exactly, I recall she first said she liked it and then later on she said ground she liked it.

    The vegetables are imported, they test them for pesticides only no other toxins. I’m not sure if you can call that USDA inspected or not.
    I think it is great that they won their court case in Ohio!

    Doesn’t mean it is more human grade than others in reality though.

    My concern is when you click on the link of the ‘pledge’ I provided below, you see they purchase ingredients from many poor countries all over the world; most great dog food companies don’t do that due to safety and quality issues; these unregulated countries they purchase from as other companies don’t as they are not safe.

    THK don’t make their own food and cannot inspect everything what goes into their food, they don’t know the source personally, as most of it is out of this country. they order ingredients online or over the phone from people they have never met for the most part. Then they do only third party lab tests, not in house testing, and have a third party make their food. In some of the countries they purchase from there are no regulations and they can taint the food without you knowing it. It is probably overall ok, but it is better when you buy locally from the US as you know personally the suppliers and farmer and you can see for yourself what they are doing, there is no compromise in quality. To me a company is not GREEN if they buy apples from Chile, vegetables from a poor country like Poland and then ship it from far like that. Does it mean the end product is bad? No but it is not the optimum.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Yes, it does.

  • Cindy

    The other companies I have listed below are all human grade as well. I heard that THK kitchen is allowed legally to say it but it doesn’t mean one is superior to the others regarding human grade or not.

  • Storm’s Mom

    I haven’t fed either yet, but I’d go for Honest Kitchen first, because of the human grade ingredients.

  • Betsy Greer

    I recall HDM mentioning quite some time ago that she didn’t care for the Veg-To-Bowl from Dr. Harvey because it didn’t appear to digest very well for her crew. I believe she has said that she does like, however, the Veg-to-Bowl Fine Ground and that it’s more digestible.

    I’ve read THK’s pledge before on Susan Thixton’s site. It seems that Susan is quite comfortable in THK’s sourcing of ingredients and their transparency. Susan mentions that all of THK’s meat and vegetable ingredients are USDA inspected and they have provided a certified organic statement as many of their ingredients are organic. Susan also discussed the fact that THK proved in court that their pet foods are made in a human food facility and that as a result, all ingredients would be required to be “human grade” quality; and received a formal statement of No Objection from the FDA to use “Human Grade’ on their product labels. I believe that THK is one of Susan’s favorite commercial foods.

  • Cindy

    They have 2 different lines; one with potato, one with chickpeas. The Arisian line don’t have any chickpeas. They have their own factory in Irvine, and some of it is cooked for sure and then freeze dried, not sure if the rest is fresh freeze dried or not. I emailed them with this question.
    They also purchase from restaurant supplier which is considered human grade ingredients.

    I also emailed them recently regarding source of ingredients and here a copy of the email:

    Thank you for your interest in Grandma Lucy’s food and ingredients. Here is an answer from our website under FAQ. The ingredient map will show that our bananas and papayas do come from South America. We do not use any ingredients from China.

    Q: Where are your ingredients sourced?

    “A: All of our ingredients are human-grade, USDA inspected and approved. We take every opportunity to purchase raw fruits, vegetables and meats from local suppliers. Suppliers that are responsible for supplying quality ingredients to some of those most respected restaurants and markets in California. Over 87% of our ingredients are grown domestically and the others are from small farms in countries such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada. We constantly search high and low for the best possible ingredients and will continue to use the very same ingredients you eat at home. Please take a look at our ingredient map for a complete listing of all of our amazing ingredients.”


    The ingredients for the Artisian Chicken are:USDA Chicken, Potatoes, Flax, Carrots, Celery, Apples, Blueberries, Cranberries, Garlic, Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Niacin, Iron, Calcium, Phosphorus, Zinc, Riboflavin, Thiamin, Potassium, Manganese, Chloride, Copper, Magnesium, Pyridoxine, Cyanocobalamin.,

    The ingredients for the Pure performance chicken:
    USDA Chicken, Chickpeas, Flax, Carrots, Celery, Apples, Bananas, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pumpkin, Papaya, Spinach, Garlic, Rosemary, Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Niacin, Iron, Calcium, Phosphorus, Zinc, Riboflavin, Thiamin, Potassium, Manganese, Chloride, Copper, Magnesium, Pyridoxine, Cyanocobalamin.

  • Betsy Greer

    Unfortunately, it appears as though all of the Grandma Lucy formulas seem to contain an abundance of chickpeas, something I’ve realized is best avoided for my two.

  • InkedMarie

    You know I’m an Honest Kitchen fan. I have used both Love & Zeal, more Zeal. I will say I’ve never used Dr Harvey’s but I would choose THK because of their transparency and the fact they are human grade.

  • Cindy

    I meant to say that I did not try the Oracle, the other lines from the same company, (Dr. Harveys) and I liked it as I stated that Hounddog mom quoted on this forum he liked it as well. I think it is a good company with quality ingredients from what I know locally sourced from the US. The oracle is a fairly new product, the ingredients contain vitamins as well. In comparison the Urban Wolf has no synthetic vitamins.
    I believe that Dr. Harveys is better than THK as their ingredients are more locally sourced and seem therefore of better quality. I don’t remember where I read it that everything is pretty much USA sourced.
    My dogs like their food too, and they won’t eat THK.
    I myself would chose The Urban Wolf over Dr. Harveys Oracle, but if you want meat in there, Grandma Lucy has also lines with meat, and Hounddogmom (sorry if I misspell her name, you know who I mean) quoted on this forum that she liked their products. Both lines they have. What I like about Grandma Lucy is it is more locally sourced and the fact that they have their own factory.
    I I could afford it I would probably also try Oracle food. I trust this company Dr. Harvey.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi Cindy,

    Thanks for your feedback.

    You said you tried the Dr. Harvey’s Oracle and didn’t like it. I’m not quite clear on why you didn’t like it though; was the cost the only thing you didn’t like ~ or was there something about the product that you didn’t like?

  • Cindy

    I said on the sojos thread why I don’t like THK, I think they have a great concept. But I have an issue with them purchasing most of their ingredients from poor, often unregulated countries, while they grow here in the US. I don’t want to sound like a broken record, so I won’t repeat it again.

    Here is a link to their ‘Pledge’ where they state the countries of origin for all of their products (countries include Asia, South America, poor countries in Europe and Egypt);


    I tried Dr. Harvey and I liked it not the Oracle though, I know Hounddogmom tried it and liked the vegetable bowl as well.
    Why I like Dr. Harvey, Grandma Lucy’s and Urban Wolf better than THK is merely because they source their ingredients more locally, which is safer as some of these companies have stated that there are quality issues when you source from so many different Third world countries like THK.
    The main reason though I won’t buy THK is because my dogs won’t eat it; they eat Sojos but they openly admit having ingredients from China. So no more Sojos for them.
    Hounddogmom talked about Urban Wolf, that is why I had ordered it. I will let you guys know how it is.
    The issue with Oracle food is it is very expensive.

  • Betsy Greer

    Dr. Harvey’s Oracle vs. Honest Kitchen Love & Zeal. Assuming both worked equally as well for your dog, which would you choose?

  • Betsy Greer

    You bet! I ordered some samples of Oracle and am now tempted to order more even before I have a chance to try it. : )

  • beaglemom

    woohoo…thanks Betsy.

  • Betsy Greer

    If anyone orders from Dr. Harvey’s directly, there’s a coupon that expires today for 10% off, plus free shipping on their site. The promo code is Summer16 and it expires today, June 28, 2013, at 11:59 EST.

  • losul

    O.K. thnx. Patty. I use small amounts of sea salt and dulse for iodine

  • Pattyvaughn

    I don’t think it is a problem for solid thyroid normal dogs, but for a dog that might be borderline, it might be enough to put them over. Or if the diet was deficient in iodine it would accentuate the problem.

  • losul

    Maybe I’ll go with less generous amounts next time. Better safe than sorry. I knew not to use too much kale or spinach because of the oxalates.

  • Just looked in the book: “If you fed these vegetables every day in very large amounts for an extended period of time they could cause a problem with iodine uptake which might impact thyroid balance”. So maybe there’s not enough in dog foods to be a problem? Just being paranoid I guess! Also “plan a couple days a week with nothing from the broccoli family in your veggie mix”.

  • losul

    Thnx. I had no idea. I include alot of broccoli in my own mixes, also a fair amount of broccoli sprouts. my dog even likes frozen broccoli. I’ve also used kale.

  • No gas. Just the fact that they shouldn’t be eaten daily but alot of commercial products include crucifers. Even my homemade recipe book advises against daily intake of them. And the new air dried food I just ordered has them! Big Dog Natural. You almost have to buy an LID to get away from them!

  • losul

    Didn’t know that. Is that something to be worried about for all dogs?

  • Pattyvaughn

    They can mess with iodine levels and therefore thyroid levels.

  • losul

    Are they causing gas?

  • I wish some companies would make cruciferous-free foods to rotate with! That’s another plus for making homemade dog food.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I plan on ordering some too!

  • Betsy Greer

    Couldn’t resist! I just had to order a couple of samples this morning. : )

  • wantthebest4myk9

    ORACLE is a raw food, for those want to know. I am having great success with knowbetterdogfood.com’s U-Stew in my quest to cook for my dog but make sure all appropriate AFFACO guidelines are followed, and it is affordable (for my 12-lb. dog). I buy grassfed beef without hormones or antibiotics, or organic skinless chicken, in bulk @ Costco and freeze it, to keep down the costs. I also add veggies and quinoa (two tablespoons per serving at my dog’s weight) — he loves it, sits by his food dish the moment it’s meal time, and is filled with appetite and energy. It feels good to be able to cook for my rescue dog – probably the best food he’s had in his life, after being in two shelters & the hospital and I’m happy to see his enjoyment on U-Stew. The folks there are completely responsive to any inquiry about quantities, what types of veggies and protein, or anything else that has come up (for ex., we increased the quantity as he was getting too hungry). It is a very dense food, so you don’t need to serve your dog as much as commercial dog foods, filled with mystery fillers.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Yeah I noticed the outrageous price tag. It looks good but not that good. I just want to try it out, I could never afford to feed something like that long term.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I think it would work great for kong stuffing.

  • Betsy Greer

    And, it’s meant to be reconstituted, so you couldn’t really use it for treats either; which in all fairness, the fact that it’s freeze-dried contributes to its high cost per pound.

    It does look good though. : )

  • losul

    Shew $16 to $18/lb., I think they would have to be reserved as treats only in my household.

  • Betsy Greer

    Wow! That’s some expensive dog food. It would cost about $100.00 per month for my 16 pound dog. I’m afraid to do the math for my 76 pound dog.

  • Melissaandcrew


  • brenda

    Kisses and junior just love this food. Thank you so much

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Don’t know why that loaded twice, but there it is!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I see feeding guidelines but no kcals. If you scroll near the bottom of the page just before the guaranteed analysis there’s a feeding chart. Probably would have to email them to get kcals, they don’t list it on their pre-mixes either.

  • Melissaandcrew

    I can’t seem to find cals per cup or feeding guidelines..

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I expected this would get 5 stars. I’m going to have to order some samples – looks like a great food.