[pitlove]

Personally, my food allergic dog can not handle grain free and gets the most severe stomach upset when he eats pea heavy foods. We made the mistake of trying NutriSource Seafood Select (since he does best on fish) and he ended up at the vet from a bad reaction to it.

There are plenty of really good grain inclusive foods out there. Dr. Tim’s, Victor, Fromm etc

[pitlove]

Hi Darlene-

You may want to go over to the review side of this site and look at the Bright Mind review. There was a very interesting debate about this exact question. What was determined was that the levels of MCT’s in Bright Mind could in fact NOT be achieved through supplementation. I know quite a few people with dogs on Bright Mind and all have said it’s been working great to help their older dogs cognitive function. Definitely worth a shot!

[pitlove]

That’s a great idea Hound Music. The calcium supplement could actually be the answer to the issue.

Is this a vet you’ve been seeing for a long time? If not or there is not much invested there maybe call around and switch to one that has a lot of experience with your breed.

[pitlove]

Aimee, as always thank you for stepping in with the math! You know how I hate math haha.

Oh golden, don’t ever think you can not speak your mind. Trust me, you are one of the least offensive people on DFA when it comes to the way you voice your opinion. And thank you for your kind words. I’m very passionate about my large breeds.

I personally do like SkeptVet and appreciate his passion for ethical and science based veterinary medicine.

[pitlove]

Hi Mary-

Yes, goldenstar is correct. It was actually not myself, but another regular poster Aimee, who was able to determine that THK does not actually fall into line with current feeding recommendations for LBP’s. The problem is that the NRC (National Research Council) and the AAFCO require any diet over 4000kcals/kg to be corrected for energy density. All of THK’s formulas are well over 4000kcals/kg. When corrected for energy density they are no longer LBP safe.

I do not want to get off on a tangent myself about holistic vs traditional, but personally, my beliefs and what works for me and my pets is traditional medicine. Science and scientific data have always been my friends. Holistic has not worked for me or my pets, so I do not go to those methods. Unfortunetly, I also find that some aspects of holistic medicine go against the code of ethics and oath I took even as a vet tech student.

[pitlove]

HoundMusic-

Ok! I understand now. Unfortunetly I believe that Ca and Phos go hand in hand. If the Ca is low the Phos will also be low. I do not believe (but could be wrong) that you can still achieve low Phos levels with calcium appropriate for a small/medium breeds needs for growth. Really sounds like a frustrating problem indeed! What does your vet think?

[pitlove]

Hi mary-

I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply you had caused the issues he has. I hope you didn’t take it that way. Hound Dog Mom’s suggestions were simply that. They will not always be appropriate for every dog. At this point it sounds like it is best to keep everything very simple for him.

[pitlove]

Hi mary-

I’m likely to agree with your vet on this one. The extras he was getting that were unnecessary to his diet are likely the cause of the issues he’s having. Pumpkin has a fine line of being a good stool firmer but give too much and it can cause loose stool.

I don’t know what “energy work” is or what homeopathic remedies you are trying to use on him, but it is best to keep his diet simple while he’s growing. Focus on one thing at a time. Keep him on Iams ONLY and long enough to note a change in symptoms. Then when he normalizes you could switch to THK if you wanted.

[pitlove]

Hi HoundMusic-

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like what you are looking for is a large breed puppy food? Only reason I say this is because LBP formulas have the restricted levels of calcium you are looking for because of the growth issues LBP’s are succeptable to.

If that is what you are looking for I can make some recommendations. Let me know.

[pitlove]

For a mix of your babies size 18 months would be best

[pitlove]

Hi John B-

It is very easy to explain why you are hearing these recommendations. They are practices that were considered effective 30-40 years ago before companies came out with foods formulated to properly meet the needs of a growing large and giant breed.

Now that we have better choices, it is no longer the recommendation from any veterinary nutritionist to feed a large breed puppy an adult maintenance diet.

This is the advice from Dr. Rebecca Remillard ACVN when asked about switching a Great Dane diganosed with pano to an adult food to slow growth:
“Please do not change the food from large breed growth to any adult formula and do not ADD any more calcium. This is exactly the opposite of the current recommendations.
I am sorry to hear that such outdated information is still being given out and causing more harm than good. The published studies in this area are about 15-20 yrs old now. I can assure you with that information; she is not certified by any Veterinary authorizing body, and if not certified by a veterinary board, she cannot legally be making diet recommendations on dogs with any medical condition for a price. Anyone can make diet recommendations for free.”

This is her website:https://www.petdiets.com

You are able to post questions to her and her staff of veterinary nutritionists in the “Ask the Nutritionist” section.

[pitlove]

Hi Mary-

Congratulations on your new puppy. Sounds like he is going to be a big boy!

In regards to your specific questions, the list from 2013 is her most current list. Hound Dog Mom has been unable to contribute to the forums lately so the list has not been updated. Any company from that list you are considering I would email and ask for a nutrient analysis to confirm that the Ca and Phos levels have not changed. I would then input them into the calcium calculator on this site to double check that it falls within the safe ratios. Not only for the Ca and Phos, but also for the calorie to Ca ratio.

I agree with your vet about waiting to begin a raw diet until after the critical growth phase. And when you do decide to try raw selecting a random recipe from a book or the Internet is not advised. It would be wiser to use a commercial raw diet from a reputable company to ensure proper nutrient levels. Do not buy into the “balance over time” concept. Proponents of this believe that a diet that is not balanced daily can be balanced over time. It is thought that because many humans do not each balanced meals daily, dogs can also do the same. What they forget is that those individuals not eating balanced meals daily often end up with adverse affects later in life. Same is true for our pets.

In regard to Orijen Puppy Large, yes they did reformulate for more appropriate calcium levels.

[pitlove]

Hi Laura-

Have a look at NuriSource. It is a very easy to digest food that many people use in cases like this and they make a large breed puppy formula. Then you can always change to something else when he’s stable or continue using NutriSource.

[pitlove]

Hi Dana-

This is the link you are looking for /dog-food-reviews/orijen-dog-food-usa/

[pitlove]

So sorry for your loss ☹️

[pitlove]

Hi Joseph-

Consider for a moment that if you yourself have never heard of a well known disease like Cushings, that you may not “know everything” and have more to learn.

[pitlove]

Hi Joseph-

You may disagree with Aimee and with the article she linked, but the information she presented to you is 100% correct. We now know that Malassezia Yeast is indeed NOT fed by carbs as once believed. The only role diet plays in the control of yeast is when a food allergy is involved.

When a food allergy is present, the immune system is weakened and allows the once controlled population of yeast naturally found on the skin, to overpopulate and thus causes a yeast infection. The key to controlling yeast is to remove the allergen trigger from the diet and therefore strengthen the immune system allowing it to do its job; controlling the yeast.

I was once like you and firmly believed that the only way I could control my dogs cronic yeast infections was by limiting or removing carbs from the diet. Once I started reviewing clinical research and discussing the subject with my vet, I realized how wrong I was and why nothing I tried was working. My dog eats a grain inclusive dry kibble with about 40% carbs and is yeast free, with the exception of the summer months when his environmental allergies flare up.

Edit: Also if you believe your dog has a food allergy you will want to do an elimination trial, also called a food trial to diagnois and confirm it. Discuss how this is done with your vet.

[pitlove]

Hi Darlene-

Sorry to hear your bad experience with NexGard. Interestingly enough I’ve had nothing but positive experiences with oral flea preventatives and I use them on my ultra sensitive pup.

I’m not sure if they can refund the product now that it’s been ingested, but it certainly can’t hurt to ask! Best of luck

[pitlove]

Hi Kelli-

I’ve noticed a trend with the advice given for yeasty dogs…”no carbs because they feed yeast”. Highly incorrect and probably what is keeping you from truly being able to help your dog heal. I went through the same issue myself.

Yeast naturally grows on the dog, but when the immune system is working at its optimal potential it can keep the yeast from overpopulating. When something like allergies (food or environmental) is suppressing the dogs immune system it can’t fight off the yeast. To control the yeast the trigger causing the allergic response needs to be removed. If you believe food is the issue talk to your vet about a proper elimination diet. It is the golden standard for diagnosing food allergies.

[pitlove]

Hi Anice-

It’s important to continue with the same food the breeder had the puppy on for about 3 weeks while she is adjusting to your home and your family. At that point you can switch the food if you do not want to continue using Iams. If I were you I would ask the breeder (if she has healthy, good quality dogs) why she chooses Iams for her puppies. I think those kinds of questions are helpful when you have doubts like yours.

[pitlove]

Hi goldenstar-

All fruits and vegetables (from what I’ve read) contain some calcium (some more than others). As do meats. So basically yes, adding any extras can possibly throw off the ca/phos ratio. However, I think it’s likely that you could add extras in small portions without unbalancing it so much as to put the dog at higher risk for bone disorders.

Truthfully though, I would personally aire on the side of caution until the pup is fully grown before adding any extras besides something like Tripett.

[pitlove]

Hi Lauren-

You will want to email Protein for Pets and request a nutrient analysis of the formula in question. Then you will want to use the numbers given for the calcium and phosphorus into this tool: /best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

If the ca/phos ratio falls between 1.1:1 and 1.5:1 and the ca/calorie ratio does not exceed 3g/1000kcals, the food is safe to feed your giant breed.

However, the only formulas I see on the link you gave are adult maintenance formulas, which is not recommended for large/giant breed puppies.

[pitlove]

Hi Chris-

The main reason vet’s recommend Purina is because they believe in the food. It is formulated by nutritionists, veterinarians, and other specialists. Many vet’s feel this is important when choosing a food. They are also one of the leading researchers (aside from Hill’s) in large and giant breed puppy growth and nutrition. I personally feed Pro Plan and after trying many of the “better”(including Orijen and Acana) dog foods, find that Pro Plan works the best for my allergy dog and my food intolerant cat.

Of course the vet’s who sell Purina make money off of it, just like the independant pet store that sells Orijen makes money off that too. I’m unaware of vet’s actually getting kickbacks for selling food and I have worked at a vet’s office. They get discounts on food, but so do I working at an independant pet store and so do the workers at Petco and PetSmart. I personally don’t see the difference, but that’s just me.

Most people do not like Blue Buffalo because of the lack of integrity on the companies part and their dishonesty during the recent law suit. Also they are quite overpriced for what you are actually getting.

[pitlove]

If you can find a new vet, I would. It is highly unprofessional for a vet to threaten someone like that. Thankfully as far as I know, she has no grounds to have him taken from you.

I do however agree with what Shawna said about needing it to be balanced.

[pitlove]

As far as I know about Orijen, their large breed puppy formula is safe since they reformulated it a few years ago

[pitlove]

Hi Chris-

I can see why Bully Max has it’s appeal, as it is marketed as a food specificially for “Bully Breeds”. Problem with that food is the same problem as all other breed specific foods. Not enough is known about each individual breeds dietary needs currently for there to be a basis for breed specific nutrition. Right now the best thing to focus on (especially with how some of these bullies are bred) is proper growth.

Many vet’s feel that a dog should be fed a food specific to it’s life stage and not an all life stages food. Personally, I don’t know that there is enough or any research out there to indicate that an all life stages diet is inappropriate or worse than a growth diet. However it is important that the formula be safe for a large breed puppy. Any time you are questioning if the diet is safe, you need to email the company and request a nutrient anaylsis of the formula in question. You then need to take the numbers they give you for the calcium and phosphorus and the kcals/kg and input them into this tool

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

If the diet exceeds a 1.5:1 ca/phos ratio and a 3g/1000kcals ratio, it is too high and inappropriate for your bully.

[pitlove]

Looks like you accidentally input a number wrong. I would try again

[pitlove]

When you switch to Chicken Soup for the Soul make sure you check the feeding guidelines since they will most likely be different.

I’d start by removing a 1/4 cup of whatever amount you’re feeding of whatever food and replace it wil fresh foods. Then go from there. Some people even do one or two fresh only meals a week. So there are ways to play around with it.

As long as you remove kibble when you add fresh it shouldn’t cause weight gain. I’d use the Dog Food Calculator on the homepage of this site to make sure ur feeding the right amount. I find it to be more accurate than the bag because it factors in activity level.

[pitlove]

Hi Jo C-

As long as your pit can tolerate it, you can certainly add fresh foods to her diet. You will need to decrease the amount of dry food you feed when feeding fresh food along with kibble, so as to not overfeed calories. Also starting off right off the bat reducing the dry food by half is not a great idea. You will need to slowly introduce fresh foods to her diet because it’s not something her stomach is used to. It’s like introducing a new dry food. You will need introduce it slowly and moniter her stool to make sure she can handle it.

Unfortunetly mine can not handle raw or lightly cooked food in his diet. But he seems to have a lot more issues than yours does.

[pitlove]

The only places I know of that sell Dr. Tim’s in a brick and mortar setting are select stores in Michigan and some near by states, however you can order it through chewy.com. All of those foods are available through chewy.com. However, if you do live in the Michigan area you may get lucky and have a retailer near you. The two other brands are available at speciality pet stores. You won’t find them at Petco or PetSmart.

https://www.chewy.com/dr-tims-kinesis-all-life-stages/dp/52925

https://www.chewy.com/s?query=nutrisource&rh=c%3A288

https://www.chewy.com/fromm-family-classics-mature-formula/dp/32644

[pitlove]

I’ve stopped using the star ratings on here to choose a food. I’ve fed many of the “best” brands and they were not right for my dog. Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach is only rated 2.5 stars, however it has worked wonders for my dog, so I’m not terribly concerned about the star rating it recieves on here.

I don’t think switching her off Pedigree is bad thing or would cause her harm, but you will have to do it very slowly. Personally I am actually more comfortable with Pedigree than Rachael Ray if only for the fact that Pedigree is formulated based on the guidelines of Waltham research: https://www.waltham.com/
Though I really do wish Pedigree would remove the BHA, artificial food coloring, and meat and bone meal.
Rachael Ray is the concept of a human food chef. Someone who has no background at all in canine nutrition. Also I’ve probably seen more complaints against Rachael Ray products within the last year than any other brand. Dogs all getting very sick, having very similar symptoms.

Personally, I think if I were you I’d look at the From Family Classics line, Dr. Tim’s, or NutriSource. All of these are pretty budget friendly and the company behind the brands have good reputations. I follow a married couple on YouTube with a 3 Huskies. One is 3, the other just made 9 and the third is close to 12. They all eat Dr. Tim’s Kinesis which is an All Life Stages food. They are all very healthy and have a ton of energy, which they need because they sled them in the winter.

[pitlove]

My Lab was raised on Purina ONE and we did move away from that food for a while when we first took him from my boyfriends parents. Luckily with him he does well on any food I put him on. My pitbull is not as lucky. He has many food intolerances and allergies that limit what he can eat, so my Lab just eats the same thing he eats. They are both on Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach because it’s the only food my pitbull will eat (very very picky) that clears up his allergies and his intolerances. The Lab seems to be doing very well on a regular adult diet. I’m very careful about the way I feed him and I don’t give treats much.

From what I’ve read, opinions vary on amounts of protein. Some say flat out higher protein, some say higher, but also has to be of higher quality. I’m starting to read more that the quality is what is of importance more so than just a super high amount of protein.

[pitlove]

Hi Jo C-

AAFCO does not have a nutrient profile at this time for a senior dog. Senior dog formulas are simply an adult maintenance diet, usually with lower protein, fat and calories. Many here, including myself do not use a senior formula for their senior pets. For my 8 year old Lab, I simply monitor his calories closely and make sure that he maintains an ideal weight.

Keeping senior dogs (and really any dog of any age) at at 4/9 on the Purina Body Condition Score, is of uttmost importance. This keeps stress off their joints, bones, heart etc. According to research done by Purina, a dog kept at ideal weight can have their life extended by 15% (1.8 years). I would say this is one of the most important things to help keep senior dogs healthy.

What are you feeding currently? Is she healthy? Good weight or overweight? Good bloodwork? 13 is a very good age for a pitbull. It sounds to me like whatever you have been doing thus far is working well.

[pitlove]

Hi Blake-

One thing you have to understand about kibble and raw is that they are completely different. One is cooked at higher temps and one is not cooked at all. I wouldn’t expect an 11 week old dog to be able to handle swapping from one type of diet to another over night.

Best thing to do at this point is reintroduce the kibble and then when the diaherra has stopped slowly start incorporating the raw food into his diet. You need to transition him to raw just like you would to another kibble, but even slower.

Best of luck!

[pitlove]

My cat eats one meal of Stella & Chewy’s Raw Frozen Chicken Dinner. It is only bloody if I let it thaw all the way to room temperature, instead of letting it thaw in the fridge. Maybe that has something to do with it?

[pitlove]

Hi Lacey-

I kind of hate to complicate things given the title of your post, but your 13 week old giant breed has very specific dietary needs while he is growing that differ greatly from your 16 year old Chihuahua.

Large and giant dogs that will mature to over 50lbs are at high risk for bone growth disorders due not only to genetics, but improper nutrition during growth. Large breed puppies have difficulty absorbing calcium correctly. They require a food that has a controlled level of calcium to help them grow slowly. Most of the time a food labeled for “large breed puppies” will meet those requirements…sometimes they do not. Diamond Naturals does have a large breed puppy formula that is All Life Stages, so your Chihuahua could eat it, however some small dogs are sensitive to kibble size so you would have to get a bag and test it out.

Homecooking is not a bad idea, however the diets have to be properly balanced and when adding the challenge of owning a giant breed puppy, many will advise that a commercial diet that meets AAFCO should be fed during growth to make sure the dog is recieving proper nutrition. When your giant breed pup reaches adulthood you could begin researching homecooked meals. BalanceIt.com is a good place to start.

[pitlove]

Hi Carol-

If you are one of our customers, I’d be happy to have you come in, introduce yourself and talk about which food would work the best for your large breed puppy. We carry a good variety of quality foods.

[pitlove]

Word of warning when recommending Taste of the Wild to someone with a large breed puppy…only their two puppy formulas are safe for a growing large breed. Just because it says all life stages and can be fed to a small or medium size dog doesn’t mean it’s safe for a large breed.

[pitlove]

Hi Norman-

At 9 months old, your puppy is not ready to be eating an adult maintenance formula because she is a large breed. Large breed puppies require a very specific diet to help reduce their risk for orthopedic disorders. Adult maintenance formulas are far too high in calcium for a large breed puppy.

You could either try the puppy formula of the Royal Canin Breed Specific formulas if you are interested in staying with RC or the Maxi Puppy formula. You may also look into Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy. I find Pro Plan has very good digestability.

[pitlove]

Yes dogs only react to protein, not fat in terms of immune system responses like allergies and intolerances. High fat diets for some dogs can cause stool problems however.

They do have samples and they may send you some. I would just email and ask.

I work at a small family owned pet store.

[pitlove]

I was actually going to suggest Nulo to you however I saw it had turkey meal in it and you were wanting to avoid it. It is safe for large breed puppy. I was able to get the nutrient anaylsis from the rep (we carry Nulo at my work).

[pitlove]

No problem haha LBP stands for large breed puppy

Personally what I would do if you are ever questioning why a company chooses to use certain ingredients, is either call or email and ask them about it specficially. If you aren’t happy with the answer they give you or you feel like they are making excuses move on to another food.

[pitlove]

Good choice Eric, Fromm is a great company

[pitlove]

Hi Debbie-

Take a look at Taste of the Wild. They have 2 puppy foods that are LBP safe and don’t have chicken or turkey.

http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/dog-formulas/high-prairie-puppy-formula-with-bison-roasted-venison/

http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/dog-formulas/pacific-stream-puppy-formula-with-smoked-salmon/

[pitlove]

Hi Debbie-

This is the tool that we all use to calculate ca/phos ratios and ca/calorie ratios

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

When I use the numbers you gave me for Nutro Natural Choice LID Lamb and Rice this is what the calculator tells me

Calculate
Calcium = 4.0 g per 1000 kcal
Ca to P ratio = 1.2 to 1

Safe, but…approaching the safe upper limit of 4.5g/1000 kcals for the ca/calorie ratio

You do not have to feed her for a working dog since she is not and that would cause her to lose too much weight, but you always want to make sure she does not get overweight.

[pitlove]

You’re very welcome. Just goes to show you never trust the bag. Orijen large breed puppy was the same way until they reformulated it.

[pitlove]

@goldenstar

I got an email back from Holistic Select regarding the Large & Giant Breed Puppy formula. When I used the numbers they gave me and put them into the calculator tool on here this is what I got

Calcium = 6.8 g per 1000 kcal
Ca to P ratio = 1.8 to 1

WAY too high…

[pitlove]

Oh yes I remember! And here I am talking to you about kibble haha. Sounds like you most likely have the best information you could have given all the different people you have consulted. Sounds like your pups are doing really well with their diet. Thats great that your 8 year old responded so well to a small change in portion! Keep up the great work with your babies!

[pitlove]

Hi again Jennifer-

As far as I know, there are no actual studies or research on a nutrient profile specificially for large and giant breed adult dogs. Each company kind of just decides what a large and giant breed adult formula should look like. Most of the time what that formulation looks is lower protein, lower fat and lower calories to try to keep weight off them. For the most part I can agree with that formulation, though personally because I have unaltered dogs I find I can feed them higher calorie, higher fat foods (but just feed them for a less active dog) and they don’t gain weight.

Dr. Rebecca Remillard ACVN recommends switching a large/giant breed puppy to a weight management or “light” formula once they hit maturity to keep weight off them, but I personally don’t feel a weight loss formula is needed to keep them lean, though I’m sure some may benefit from it for various reasons.

[pitlove]

Honestly I’m not 100% sure. You can usually upload them to a website like I m g u r (no spaces) and then post them here using one of their links.

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