[Patricia A]

Joanne true about affordability is a big reason for feeding kibble especially to larger dogs. But I can see no reason why kibble can’t be supplemented with some whole meat food.I’ve posted this so many times I’m sick of myself writing it. How hard or costly is it to buy a little extra chicken breasts or lean beef etc. and add at times to a little less kibble? I have small dogs so the freeze dried such as Primal isn’t breaking the bank but I can understand it would be very costly for larger dogs. The raw is less costly though and doesn’t contain peas, potatoes etc.
People looking for a healthy diet for their dog will never find it in any kibble. It’s like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[Patricia A]

joanne I agreee that the dog food manufactors
couldn’t have been any happier when everyone got on the band wagon of grain free. I just bought a bag of Stella and Chewys new grain inclusive chicken recipe. Very strange that it’s showing crude protein as 25%. since their grain free kibble chicken recipe shows a whopping 35%. Hmmm could all that protein have come from possibly the peas and NOT animal protein???? A big YES. I’ll be posting this observation on their f/b page and see what they have to say.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Candice if grain, peas or potatoes are not added to the kibble what would be the starch binder to hold the kibble together?

[Patricia A]

Ashley your boxer has never exhibited this behavior before and has been doing fine with his food ? Is it possible it is connected to the groomer visit since it started then? Meaning swallowing medicated shampoo or anything else you know groomer uses on him? Just a long shot but strange this started after visit and was fine before.

[Patricia A]

Jennifer did you switch food VERY slowly. By slowly I mean when you have 1/4 left of kibble you add a FEW kibbles of the new brand. Maybe even for a few weeks until she is used to the new food. My dogs’ always had loose stools when first introducing a new food too quickly.

[Patricia A]

From whole dog Journal. Best advice I’ve read and really common sense .
Also, if you read through the 77-page table that includes every one of the 515 reports received by the FDA about a pet with DCM, you will see many times over that pet owners fed whatever they had been feeding to their dogs for months or even years. The same food, day in and day out. Month in and month out. Year in and year out! We’ve said it before and we will say it again: Feeding the same food for months on end amounts to putting your dog’s life in a single company’s hands. Is there any company on earth that you would trust to provide ALL the nutrition you consume for the rest of your life?

[Patricia A]

Cindy does she drink sufficient water? Maybe add canned with the kibble for the moisture or moisten kibble. Adding a little rehydrated with warm water. freeze dried such as Stella and Chewy’s or Primal freeze dried will help since these have veggies for the fiber added. Add slowly as a topper.

[Patricia A]

It’s Stella and Chewy’s Joanne. I feed their small breed grain free in chicken and rotate with Wellness core. There was a rumor on their f/b page that they’ll probably come out with a grain inclusive since so many were concerned with their legumes high on their ingredient list. I found it on their website page but it’s not in retailers yet. I put in suggestion for advisor to review also. Thank’s for thumbs up. Will try it and see how they do.

[Patricia A]

Please review Stella and Chewy’s new GRAIN INCLUSIVE kibble. Thank you.

[Patricia A]

Robert since kibble is a VERY small portion of my dogs’ diet I can’t make a suggestion if you feed this exccluviley. I only use as a base and I always rotate with at least two manufactors/brands as well as different proteins/flavors. No problems with digestion since I do it VERY slowly. When I’m about 1/4 done with one bag I start introducing a few kibbles of the new one. I use toppers always. Be it boiled chicken, lean steak if they’re lucky that day lol, string beans, boiled fish if we have such as salmon . Didn’t catch any keepers on the party boat or they would have enjoyed some fresh Fluke. Watermelon is their favorite. Don’t be afraid of giving real food as a topper for kibble also. A little at a time to see how well he does.
Most of the time they get a topper of Primal. I stick to the 5* lower in fat.NO legumes or potatoes in Primal. https://primalpetfoods.com/collections/canine-raw-freeze-dried-formulas. Some dogs are prone to pancreatitis with the higher fat proteins. I use turkey/Sardine, Duck, rabbit at times in the freeze dried. Just break up and moisten with warm water and add the dry kibble on the side. Again I started with a little piece and GRADUALLY added each to my rotation. I use Stella Chewy’s https://www.stellaandchewys.com in rotation freeze dried again in turkey, chicken and venison blend. All 5* by the advisor. NO LEGUMES or potatoes in their freeze dried. They have a very popular f/b page and pets are doing very well with these freeze dried toppers.I feel good about giving variety and my Chihuahuas’ are healthy on exams. Hope this helps .

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Thank’s Joanne. Makes sense. I wish they broke down let’s say the Acana and tell us what percentage in the kibble actually comes from meat as opposed to peas. That would clear up for me if the ingredient/protein splitting is the problem with the lack of animal protein . But other foods have the legumes high up on ingredient list that are popular brands without being on their list . I give Stella chewys as a very small base and they assured me that a higher percentage of protein is from meat and not the peas.I rotate the kibble and will be using Wellness core for a while. All very confusing . Glad I have small dogs who at this time not high on the DCM list.

[Patricia A]

Anon Thixton is NOT giving her opinion and she is NOT formulating dog food. You wrote “Ms. Thixton is a vehement activist at war with the pet food industry, government regulators, “. And she has no reason for this since we can trust them all 100% for our pets safety?????
The FACTS she listed on in the new FDA report which shows graphs high to low brands/manufacturers. most associated with DCM in their study .Then the graphs with the protein in the kibble with the most cases. All along there was the thought that there wasn’t enough knowledge in regard to the proper formulation of food with “exotic” proteins. The chart FDA showed the protein being fed with MOST cases of DCM was chicken with the more exotic ones being less implemented in DCM cases.
Please read the questions she has regarding the the new FDA study. They are right on relevant questions even though you don’t agree with her type of advocacy for the health of our pets.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

But anon raw was also listed . Not sure but I believe MOST raws don’t contain legumes or potatoes .I don’t think people who started home cooking are not adding all the legumes with exotic meats either. Hoping the people that do home cooked just don’t throw some meat in a bowl and call it a day without knowing enough about other added nutrients needed for a dogs health. I personally wouldn’t trust myself for that.
The only new info is that now they implicate not only grain free/high legume kibble but canned, raw and home cooked and ALSO grain inclusive.
Call me a broken record but I’m sticking to my guns. VARIETY in both the brand, protein, flavor . As well as NOT just kibble .
Can’t wait to read next update to see if a brand, protein, combination of protein and legumes blocking amino acids for heart health ,,not enough animal protein vs legumes , people not feeding enough food for proper nutrition with a food that’s already inferior to begin with or….non of the above.
Hope answer is solved in my lifetime.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Dennis so sorry to hear of your girls’ passing. Understandable you have concerns about diet. However, please also read new data regarding yearly vaccinations also. Many health issues are proven to be related to excess , unnecessary vaccinations . I had experiences with my own Chihuahuas . One had to go through bone marrow testing due to an almost non existing white count. Results were Immune mediated hypolymphemia if I’m remembering correctly due to vaccination. She had vaccinations before a knee surgery and two weeks later they tested her blood again (was normal two weeks before) and she had the very low white count. Doctor said it was from the vaccinations and not rare.
If your vet pushes yearly vaccinations go to another vet. Most vaccinations are good for AT LEAST three years and some give immunity for a lifetime. It’s safer to get a titer test to see if she is still immune.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

FDA update July 2019 report: Well then they’re SO MUCH closer in narrowing down the cause. (sarcasm)

It’s important to note that the reports include dogs that have eaten grain-free and grain containing foods and also include vegetarian or vegan formulations. They also include all forms of diets: kibble, canned, raw and home-cooked. Therefore, we do not think these cases can be explained simply by whether or not they contain grains, or by brand or manufacturer.

[Patricia A]

jill b in answer to “don’t know what a boutique food is.” Dr. Lisa Freeman, a veterinary nutritionist at Tufts University, coined the term “BEG” diet, for boutique, exotic and/or grain-free. “I think all of those are suspect at this point,” Freeman said.

Exotic diets have unusual meats such as kangaroo, alligator, bison, venison and the like.

Best think you can do for your dog is variety and that goes with kibble also. Nothing wrong with at times at your convenience to substitute fresh food and lessen the kibble for that feeding. Nothing exotic just some boiled chicken, string beans, a little sweet potatoes, lean steak, lean, drained hamburger, plain broiled fish, watermelon etc. Always important to start with VERY little to see if it’s agreeable for your pets digestion. Find three brands and flavors of kibble. Maybe every two bags rotate with the other brand/flavor. Again VERY slowly until he gets used to each. Maybe when you’re down to 1/4 of a bag start putting in a few kibbles of the other brand/flavor. See how he does.

When you can’t give fresh as a topper use some freeze dried such as Primal. Very convenient and with both Primal freeze dried or even Stella and Chewy’s you don’t have to worry about the peas and carbs . AGAIN just a little piece of the nugget or pattie with a little warm water and give less kibble on side of bowl that day. My pet supply store has no problem with a full refund if they don’t do well with one of the flavors or proteins. So between the maybe two kibble rotations, toppers with fresh food at times, the freeze dried topper your dogs getting variety in nutrition and tastes. Absolutely no reason to feed only kibble to your dog its whole life.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Thank’s @haley. Always looking even though kibble is a VERY small part of their diet.

[Patricia A]

pugmomsan what is holding this kibble together being legume and potatoes free? I thought it’s needs some kind of starch?

[Patricia A]

You’re welcome Sandi. I’m working on my one soon to be nine year old Chihuahua tying to slim her down a little also. Now that weather is nicer there are more walks so this will help. Just got to get my hubby to stop sneaking her pieces of cheese. lol. I also cut down on the little kibble I do give with the topper. Just want to see more of a waistline with her and keep her a healthy slim weight.
You’re right PUgmomsan about going by body condition instead of trying to count calories. I just needed to know which of the proteins/flavors is even a little lower in calories so I can rotate more of that one for the chubby one. They are small dogs so every bit helps. I look at her from the top and want to see that she’s losing the side budge on each side. She’s looking better now that I have big note on refrigerator that says NO CHEESE for Tia! give her a stringbean!!!!!!! lol

[Patricia A]

Sandi I feed Primal freeze dried also as a topper to kibble for my Chihuahuas. If you go to Primal there is a calculator under F&Q column. You put in your dogs current weight then if you want weight lose, maintenance, gain etc. Then choose which protein/flavor he’s eating. I put your dogs weight in and checked weight lose. It came up with your dog needs approx 900 calories a day to lose weight.
So now you have to figure out calories from the kibble and the nugget to see if it comes close to that.
I also want to add that each flavor/Protein is different calories. I also go by dog food advisor who I believe rates the lower star flavor/proteins by protein to fat ratio. So I stick to the 5 stars which I believe he gives to the lower fat. However the CALORIES are different for each flavor/protein. So even though the lower fat might be better for dogs prone to pancreatitis, the higher caloreis in some of the flavors might induce weight gain if you don’t look at back of bag to adjust nugget for this.
So I broke it down for you which I did awhile ago for my two since the one eight year old gets chubby easily . Also I don’t give chicken since I boil my own for them as a topper . When I cook steak, fish etc. they get that as a kibble topper instead of the freeze dried.
I stick to the turkey/sardine, duck and at times rabbit. More calories with the duck so i give even less kibble. I also use Stella and Chewy’s in turkey and venison blend.
Here are the calories broken down to ONE nugget highest to lowest

Duck 51.6 calories per nugget 5* on advisor because I believe because of ratio of fat/protein
Beef 51.1″ ”
lamb 49
pork 44.5 5 star
qual 44.5 5star
rabbit 42.8 5 star
venison 42.8 5star
turkey/sardine 38.5 5 star
Hope this makes sense and I helped.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

I believe this is the latest on brands at top of list with most DCM cases.

https://whdh.com/news/fda-announces-dog-food-brands-that-could-cause-heart-failure/?fbclid=IwAR1IauGHrj8kUtOTRAyccRpKqvCNRL_rX6Qbx4zZAeMIE5QlFHE_TCdRrgo

Please someone explain how a brand for instance such as Arcana being the top one fed with most DCM cases was for years touted as the BEST of the BEST you could feed in a kibble. My dogs never took to it and I was disappointed . Also are All recipes implemented as a whole? The regional recipe doesn’t have the legumes that far up on the list even as other grain free brands do that are not on the list . Also the recipes I just looked at are not exotic proteins.
Plus their statement checks all the boxes that this food should NOT be a problem.

Q. DOES CHAMPION PETFOODS HAVE A VETERINARY NUTRITIONIST OR OTHER QUALIFIED EMPLOYEES ON STAFF? ARE THEY AVAILABLE FOR CONSULTATION OR QUESTIONS?

Yes, our highly educated and talented team of 20 Research & Innovation scientists lead the development and research of our ACANA and ORIJEN pet foods. These individuals cover a wide variety of education and experience including, but not limited, to: 1 Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, 1 PhD in Animal Nutrition, 2 PhD’s in Food Science, 3 Masters of Science in Animal Nutrition (2 in companion animal nutrition), 2 Masters of Science in Food Science, 1 Masters of Science in Meat Hygiene and Food Microbiology, and 17 Bachelors of Science areas such as Animal Science, Biochemistry, and Veterinary Medicine.

Q. WHO FORMULATES YOUR DIETS AND WHAT ARE THEIR CREDENTIALS?

Champion Petfoods’ Research and Innovation team works with a group of animal nutritionists, and consults with Veterinarians who specialize in nutrition, toxicology, and holistic medicine when developing our ACANA and ORIJEN diets.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Tammy curious of her schedule for relieving herself? I imagine she isn’t walked since she wouldn’t get the chance. If she’s a puppy then I understand that she’s going maybe a few times a day maybe n the house and you can’t catch her. Usually by the time their adults they go usually two times a day and can be walked sometime after eating.
My dogs go in our backyard. I have a pail and pooper scooper. One of them also ate her poo and the other ones. I finally solved the problem. I would stand outside and as soon as she went I would get her attention with a “Tia NO” and immediently pick it up. Same after the other one went. I NEVER again gave her the chance to even once eat the poo. Consistency was the key. After awhile she knew I was right there and would start to just walk away and look guilty. Awhile after that she just stopped trying without even looking for me. I kept this up a few months and habit was broken. Takes time and patience but it was worth it. No more poo breath either.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

I think the belief that high protein CAUSES kidney problems has been debunked.
Are high protein diets harmful to my dog’s kidneys?

A. A rumor has been going around that high protein diets cause kidney disease. This rumor is false. High protein pet foods are NOT harmful to a normal animal’s kidneys. As an animal’s body digests and metabolizes protein, nitrogen is released as a by-product. The excess nitrogen is excreted by the kidneys. A high protein diet produces more nitrogen by-products and the kidneys simply excrete the nitrogen in the urine. While you may think this would ‘overwork’ the kidneys and lead to possible kidney damage, this is not true. The kidney’s filtering capabilities are so great that even one kidney is sufficient to sustain a normal life. There are many pets – and humans – living perfectly healthy lives with just one kidney.

The myth that high protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low protein (and thus low nitrogen) diets. Now, we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein, but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products. These diet changes are made merely because damaged kidneys may not be able to handle the excess nitrogen efficiently. In pets with existing kidney problems, nitrogen can become too high in the bloodstream, which can harm other tissues.

Unless your veterinarian has told you your pet has a kidney problem and it is severe enough to adjust the protein intake, you can feed your pet a high protein diet without worrying about ‘damaging’ or ‘stressing’ your pet’s kidneys. Also, you are not ‘saving’ your pet’s kidneys by feeding a low protein diet.

Article by: Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith

[Patricia A]

Anon,I don’t feed this food. If you read full post I just add at times the same ingredient as these fresh food mail order companies do. I think it’s wonderful that pet owners are getting out of the mindset that dogs should only eat kibble . Don’t think they were born and evolved with a bag of kibble around their neck saying feed me this. If your dog is doing well and healthy on their food then it’s a plus for the dog enjoying real food with the proper nutritional requirements added. It’s not that most of the traditional dog food companies has been always putting 100% safe to feed formulas in their bags of food . Between ingredient splitting for profit , recalls for lethal doses of vitamins and who knows what else goes into their feed quality ingredients I’d say this is an alternative for those who can afford. Our board-certified veterinary nutritionists carefully formulate each recipe to be 100% complete and balanced according to AAFCO standards, and we use all human-grade ingredients and processes to do so.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

I think the plus side to these foods is you can see what you’re getting in the pouch unlike kibble.. Don’t think anyone is going to spend this amount and get a pouch of mostly potatoes vs meat. I feel good about giving mine a food I trust to be nutritionally complete and then top with really some of the same food as these expensive fresh food delivery companies. Doesn’t take much to boil some chicken, lean hamburger or if they are lucky steak Plain oatmeal in morning or pieces of hard boiled egg. I have sweet potatoes for dinner they get a tiny bit. Low salt string beans /carrots for my one that’s always hungry and follows me into the kitchen. Summer we go fishing and if we’re lucky they’ll enjoy some fresh fluke that day. Even my 17 year old loves her watermelon also . I wish I fed this way to my first dog Pookie. . The thinking then was Never give “people food” to your dog.
Anon I read that it is not feed grade food and not made a a dog food facility. I think it can be for human consumption before they add the nutrient packet.
All of our ingredients are human-grade and sourced from reputable food suppliers, local farms, and other human food purveyors that meet USDA standards. We never use feed-grade ingredients, and we don’t process our ingredients to be shelf-stable, ensuring your dog is getting the highest quality, most natural nutrients available.

The Farmer’s Dog creates recipes that are simple in nature. Every recipe uses clean USDA proteins, mixed with simple produce, and balanced with vitamins and minerals. That’s it. Our board-certified veterinary nutritionists carefully formulate each recipe to be 100% complete and balanced according to AAFCO standards, and we use all human-grade ingredients and processes to do so.

[Patricia A]

Human-grade ingredients means less processing, natural nutrients and higher safety standards.
The food is prepared in a USDA-regulated kitchen. In fact, it’s the only dog food made there at the facility — everything else is human food, which is virtually unheard of.
The recipes are formulated by some of the top veterinary nutritionists in the United States. That puts me at ease because I know all the recipes are completely balanced.

I’m glad that people are getting out of the mindset that kibble/canned is the only way to nourish your dog. Farmer’s sounds great and would probably work cost wise for a small dog for it’s convenience.

[Patricia A]

I have a 17 year old chihuahua with heart disease and several tooth extractions. At this point the only thing she will eat enthusiastically is super shredded boiled chicken mashed into some Fromm Pate chicken or lamb flavor. I’ve been through a dozen canned brands and happy she will eat this for the nutrition so far. You can try also Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried. They are easy to break up and then just add a little warm water to make a gravy and hydrate. I know from their f/b site many people with senior or picky dogs are very happy with this brand.
https://www.facebook.com/stellaandchewys/

[Patricia A]

Peace to you also. Just wanted to add that have had dogs in my home for over 25 years and always took my vets advice regarding their health. However, there have been times they were just outright wrong and caused more harm then good. My first dog was a Doxie. A tough little dog and just wonderful with my two young children at the time. This was over 25 years ago and when my vet said he is due for his shots after a well check up I started questioning if he had my dogs best interest. He was 16 at the time and starting to loose bladder control as well as his appetite. Our visit was REALLY to ask if he feels it might be time and if he was suffering . I am glad I went against his push for the shots. He always had bad reactions to them. The lepto was the culprit that made his face swell so that was discontinued the last year. When I showed concerned that he can no longer receive the lepto my vet said don’t worry since it would be rare for him to actually contact the lepto virus. Anyway we had Pookie for three more months before we decided it was time.Looking at some old VHS videos the other day and so glad we had so many with Pookie always in the middle of everything. Then came my Chloe a rescue Chihuahua. Took her in for a cough and exercise intolerance that came on quickly. This was about 12 years ago. Vet gave X-ray and said pneumonia. Gave us antibiotics and said take her into the steamy shower and tap on her chest to move fluid. He said not to worry. Well by early morning we were rushing her into office and they said hurry to the big hospital emergency 20 minutes away. She was turning blue on her gums and gasping. She died on my lap on the way there. I got a ton of apologies from the “head” vet who owns the business and also from my vet who said “don’t worry just give the antibiotics”. She was 13 and I trusted him that even though my intuition said she looked really sick and she’s 13 withpneumonia and maybe we should take her for another opinion we didn’t. We just put our trust that she’ll be getting better by morning with the two antibiotics already in her. I think they thought we would sue because I got calls all week with the “so very sorry”. Very hard to even think or talk about it without crying again after all these years. Next comes my Hannah. She needed surgery for luxatting Patella. Very common in small breeds with their knees not staying in place . Vet gives all the blood tests before surgery AND her shots. I asked vet if they could be given seperately because the last year she was not right for two weeks after all the shots. He said no they are all in one. So three weeks later take her to the big animal hospital for her surgery and they give another blood test before surgery. Surgeon calls that surgery could not be done because she had hardly any white cell count. Mind you she had a clean bill of health at her checkup and blood work three weeks before. So now she needs a bone marrow test. Results are immune mediated hypo lymphocyte or something like that caused from vaccination. Thank goodness months later her white count went up and got her surgery. She was 8 at the time and I stopped all vaccinations for her. She is the one now that is 17 . At that time I had her and a one other little rescue Loli. I took her in for spaying. She had all her shots and would get the boosters at a year. So vet said she has to have the kennel nasal vaccine before she goes for the spaying . Well within three days this healthy little puppy was coughing, sneezing and had mucous pouring out of her nose . So the vet actually GAVE her a cold to prevent others from catching a cold while she is there. If I would have brought her in for the surgery with that cold she would have infected all the dogs there . Also why give a bad cold to a dog getting surgery. Not only that he knew that I had an immune compromised dog to boot that could catch the cold.
Onward to the present. Hannah was diagnosed with very likely mitral valve disease by stethoscope , breed and of course her age. She developed a cough a few months ago. But to give her the prescription she needed the ultrasound. Vet said ultrasound guy comes in twice a week and I would have to bring her in at 7 in morning and leave her in cage. The cardio/ultrousound Dr. might not be in till late afternoon. So I asked if I could have an estimate so I could bring her in and sit with her in office. I was willing to wait a few hours. I explained to vet she is almost 17 and her heart is very bad. I do NOT want a phone call that she passed in that cage from the stresss without me. Vet said there is no way to know when he will come and if she’s not there he will not wait. I live like five minutes away. All they had to do was call me when he comes in and do the other dogs waiting and I would be there way before he’s ready for her. Well he did not agree to that. So there is NO exception for a very elderly dog who doesn’t have long and give her more stress and fear by waiting all day in a cage. I would have been a wreck waiting for that phone call that she passed and how would I live with that ? After many pleading phone calls the head vet agreed to call me when he’s on the way. They did her last I waited over two hours.. I guess that was my punishment for being a pain but so relieved I didn’t have to leave her waiting in the cage.
Sorry so long but feels good getting all this out. Maybe you can now understand being a little questioning when it comes to SOME practices of SOME vets with my pets.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

“I will no longer respond to any of your posts…”
Thank you very much Anon for not responding to my posts anymore.
By the way my 17 year old dog is on three different PRESCRIPTION”drugs” for mitral valve disease given by my “holistic vet”. Yes holistic vets are doctors by the way.
Definition of Drug in the Merrian Webster dictionary
drug noun
\ ˈdrəg \
Definition of drug (Entry 1 of 3)
1a : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication
b according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act
(1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (see FORMULARY sense 3)
(2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease
prescription drugs

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

The Holistic View on Drugs

In his book, The Nature of Animal Healing, noted holistic veterinarian Martin Goldstein, DVM, writes that he has used Anipryl for treating Cushing’s disease. The drug “is reputed to work (for Cushing’s) indirectly by making the dog feel better – a psychological effect that may produce physical improvement.” But after seeing three dogs who suffered “unfortunate side-effects,” he stopped using the treatment.

Lost in the hype over these drugs is whether or not they’re really necessary. Most common illnesses and behavior problems dogs face can be improved with good nutrition, consistent training, and safer, natural remedies. Being advocates for our dogs’ health means not always taking the easy way out, but seeking out the cause of the problem and finding the safest way to help.

As Dr. Peter Breggin, author of Talking Back To Prozac, commented to Newsweek recently, “Instead of meeting our pets’ needs, we’ll just drug them. It used to be that we petted our dogs and hugged our kids. Now we can give both of them a pill instead.”

Without a doubt, there is legitimate medical technology that can help our dogs live longer and healthier lives. But how many of these drugs, like commercial foods and other “miracles” of modern pet care, are for the convenience of humans and not the health of our dogs? In the name of short-term convenience, will we jeopardize our dog’s long-term health with incompletely understood drugs?

[Patricia A]

Anon have you ever read articles from the Whole Dog Journal? I don’t believe you have because the site contains a lot of useful up to date articles of all kinds for us pet owners. , if you’re thinking for example they are against vaccinations for example and advocate “”GO HOLISTIC” and no shots you are wrong. I’m just giving an example of what some people think holistic means. It’s also making me annoyed that now they are showing commercials for sedatives for your dogs if they are restless in the car.. Do you agree that now your dog should be drugged for car rides ? Is this science based or profit pharmaceuticall based. Now they’re making the public think we actually NEED to give this to our dogs? Or just maybe instead of giving your dog drugs a more”holistic” approach would be in the best interest of your pet. Maybe this can be an option: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/training/dogs-riding-safely-and-calmly-in-cars/
This is one of hundreds of informative articles also . See below’s articles in Whole Dog Journal is doesn’t sound like voodoo science to me.

Physical Exams for Senior Dogs
Senior Dog April 17, 2018 0
There are a number of ways that we can stay on top of health issues that creep up on our dogs with age. Annual veterinary visits are a staple in every healthy pet’s life. A comprehensive physical exam from nose to tail is step one in picking up clues to underlying concerns at every age, but it becomes even more important in the senior years.
Below is article I was originally referring to with the AAFCO
:https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/19_10/editorial/Ask-for-AAFCO_21528-1.html

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

oops..Sorry for forgetting to post the link. https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/food/why-all-dog-diets-should-meet-aafco-nutrient-guidelines/

[Patricia A]

This was an eye opener of the standards to meet AAFCO requirements.
No Proof!

Until recently, I was under a false impression – and no pet food company representative hastened to correct it! I thought if a food had a “nutrient values” claim on its label, its maker would have to submit proof that the food inside the can or bag actually contains nutrients in the required amounts. I guess I assumed the products would be tested by third party laboratories and the results would be filed with state feed control officials.

I was wrong.

The actual requirement is this: A company representative must sign and have notarized an affidavit that states, “This product meets the nutrient levels established in the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for (growth/reproduction, maintenance, or all life stages).” And then they have to keep a copy of that affidavit.

That’s it. Seriously.

No lab test results or analysis of the nutrients confirming that the statement is true are required.

And the affidavit doesn’t even get filed with the state! It just has to be kept “on file” in the company’s own files!

No kidding: The company has to, in effect, pinky swear that their products meet the required nutrient levels. And consumers have to just trust that the products do.

Editorial: I don’t think that’s right. I don’t think that’s sufficient.

Why This Matters

This matters because most dogs get most (if not all) of their nutrients from commercial food. They are a captive audience, literally. They are not free to select their own foods, they can’t follow their instincts to drive them to ingredients that contain any nutrients they may be lacking. What’s more, many owners are warned by their veterinarians and other pet professionals against feeding any table scraps or “human food” to dogs. And pet food companies encourage owners to feed their products and only their products, and to use extreme caution when switching products, lest the dog explode (or something) from diarrhea (or something).

Put another way: If most dogs eat a single type of food and nothing but that food, shouldn’t their owners be able to verify that the food truly contains every nutrient their dogs need?

Raising the Bar

I’ve long believed that, for the reasons above, consumers ought to be able to ask for and readily receive a complete nutrient analysis of their dogs’ food – to make sure that the diet contains adequate (and not excessive) amounts of the nutrients that experts agree dogs need – and that was before I knew that it was possible that products that are labelled as “complete and balanced” might not be.

Last year, we surveyed the dog food companies whose products met our selection criteria and asked this question: “Do you make a complete nutrient analysis for each of your products available to consumers? If so, are the analyses available only upon request, or is this information on your website?” As it turned out, very few of the companies had nutrient analyses readily available, and some of the ones that said they had them available were not able (or perhaps not willing) to produce them.

So, this year, we sent the pet food companies whose products have been on our “approved canned dog food” list an email that said, “There will be one significant change in how we will select and present the ‘approved’ foods on our list. This year, we are asking each company to provide us with a fairly recent (within the past year) ‘typical analysis’ for each of the canned dogs foods that they offer, and we will be comparing the values with the AAFCO nutrient profiles for dogs. If we do not receive the analyses, the foods will not appear on our ‘approved foods’ list this year.”

The Results

A few companies promptly sent us what we asked for, and these companies now constitute our gold-star picks – our top-rated producers of canned foods. See the “2016 Canned Dog Food Review” for a list of these companies.

In contrast, there were other companies we didn’t hear back from. We are more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt; maybe they didn’t receive our email? Maybe our phone message got lost? If they respond in the next few months, we will update their information here.

We heard from a few companies that said they would be happy to get this information to us, but they needed more time. So, for them, too, we’re going to reserve space in the next few issues to update their information.

Quite a few companies sent us something that’s close to what we asked for; quite a few sent us nutrient analyses of their products that were generated by computer software. Different companies use different programs to generate these analyses, but they all work in a similar fashion: The programs are loaded with nutrient values for every dog food ingredient you can dream of, and then a formula for a given dog food is entered – so many pounds of this, so many ounces of that, etc. – and the software calculates the amount of nutrients that will be in the resulting food.

Literally every company has these software-driven analyses – projections, really – of their formulas, because that’s how pet food is formulated today. The concern is, how do these projections pan out when compared to actual laboratory analysis of the nutrients?

We put this question to a number of pet food experts – including formulators and pet food company owners – and the answer was, it depends on a lot of things, including:

How closely the food manufacturer hews to the recipe for the food;
What software is used to analyze the recipe;
Whether or not the software takes into account chemical reactions between ingredients that take place when the food is mixed or cooked – reactions that might cause certain nutrient values to test at different levels than the software would predict; and
Whether the pet food company routinely tests their raw ingredients in a laboratory and enters updated nutrient values for those ingredients into the software.
All of these are reasons why computer-generated analyses might return very different values than a laboratory test of the actual dog food.

So, even though these computer-generated analyses are not exactly what we asked for, we’re going to give the companies that sent them to us the benefit of the doubt, too. For now, they still appear on the list of our “approved canned dog foods” that starting on page 8. If they, too, send us actual laboratory test results for their products, we’ll upgrade their status to our gold-star list in upcoming issues.

But we’re also giving all the companies a heads-up: Only the pet food makers that provide lab analyses of their products will appear on our list of “approved dry dog foods” in the February issue.

[Patricia A]

Crazy4cats well said in a nut shell. Something we all can agree upon. I just had hot dogs for dinner. I’ll just stay away from googling how bad that is for you . I enjoyed them so much and don’t want to ruin it. lol

[Patricia A]

Bobby never meant to come across as a know it all on this forum. It’s very difficult to keep up with all the prevailing information from a million sources which is many times not reliable . I never even heard of WSAVA before approx . last year. I went to their website and NO they do not say what to feed. .I imagine these four are the only ones which meet their criteria for a responsible company. In regards to feeding trials even WSAVA’s statement from their website discounts the validity of them.”Formulated foods are manufactured so the ingredients meet specified levels, without testing via feeding trials interpret with caution. However, the use of feeding trials does not guarantee the food provides adequate nutrition under all conditions”
If my dog was the breed more susceptible to DCM I most likely would switch to a brand not listed under the DCM causing foods. However, I think there is a lot of hysteria regarding feeding food from a “boutique” as it’s called. Also, I also do not buy dog food from petco ever. Only some toys.
Maybe everyone buying these brands for their dog started with this statement?
BEG is a term coined by Dr. Lisa Freeman, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN of the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University to mean “boutique (small company), exotic (nontraditional meat proteins), and grain-free” foods. The term has no standard definition in the pet food industry, nor is there agreement among veterinarians for what constitutes “boutique”, “exotic”, or even “grain free”.

Dr. Freeman is an advocate of “traditional” pet foods including Purina ProPlan, Iams/Eukanuba, Hill’s and Royal Canin. She is the source of the information many veterinarians sent recently to customers and patients advising them to stop feeding grain-free foods in favor of the above pet food brands, despite there being no such warning from the FDA.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Bobby WSAVA does not recommend any one brand of dog food. However they insist the only foods to feed follow the WSAVA guidelines. Coincidently, the three big companies support and fund this group. Hills, Nestle (Purina) and Royal Canine. They insist one of those brands are the only brands to feed your dog. Maybe someone on this board knows if the criteria for what to feed your dog came before or after these four funded them.

[Patricia A]

I know exactly how your feeling Stephanie. I was going nuts too between the recalls and now this DCM AND the thousands of brands and then reviews. Whether to give canned etc. Just going nuts with it all. I have three Chihuahuas’. One will be 17 in June. She has Mitral Valve disease . She still has quality of life. However she inspects her food for a few minutes in case I snuck in one of her heart pills. So at this point she gets all home cooked and I’ve found trick with her pills. Morning is wrapped in little piece of bread with a tiny bit of melted cheese . It works for NOW at least. Then comes boiled chicken, sweet potatoes mushed into a little canned fromm pate. At this point I am so glad she’s eating again and not trying all night with all kinds of foods, cans etc.
Then I have my other two. One eats everything, anything. My other is a little picky. I can just HOPE I’m doing the best for them. I have been giving a little Stella chewys kibble along with a little Stella’s freeze dried or freeze dried primal as topper. I just add a little warm water so it’s much easier then cans. Not that costly since they are small dogs. I like to mix the protein AND the brand so it’s variety and also I feel safer if one brand lacks “something”. If we have chicken I just boil a little for them and skip the freeze dried and just add the kibble. Same with steak, fish etc. For treats I give Bixbi Rawwble. They are just tiny, round freeze dried. I throw them a few at night. So far so good with health and stomach. Fingers crossed. I’m finally relaxed and not always searching for something better.

[Patricia A]

I don’t know if you’re bichon is a little overweight so that is your concern. Yes, between the fruit yogurt and even the fruit you give frequently that does contain sugar would start to put weight on a small dog. Sounds like you’re doing a good job but need maybe a little something so you don’t feel guilty when the begging starts. I give my small Chihuahuas a divided hard boiled egg in morning. It’s easy since I just boil maybe two the nights before. Has protein but not the sugar. Maybe you can substitute watermelon in tiny pieces instead of the apple. While watermelon does contain fruit sugar —fructose — like all other fruits, it’s nearly 92 percent water. Just because it tastes sweet doesn’t make it high in sugar. Also maybe a raw carrot when you want to keep him busy. But really can’t keep tossing food or will be overweight. Just a good back rub and a “oh you’re such a good boy” instead of the food. Hope this help.

[Patricia A]

I was using Fromm grain inclusive Salmon a la veg and they were doing well on that. Mine don’t do well with beef flavors. Maybe at times just add a little fresh boiled chicken to the kibble.

[Patricia A]

Joanne do you know if it’s strictly the chicken that doesn’t work well for her or is it possibly another ingredient added to the food that has in common with others you’ve tried that could be the upset cause? Have you ever tried giving JUST boiled chicken for a little bit and see if your dogs have what their or he/she is experiencing.
Vet can’t possibly know your dogs sensitivities as much as their owners. I mean I can ask my vet is a little bit of watermelon good for my dog and he’ll say yes. But I’m the one that knows that my one gets diarrhea from one tiny piece and my other can eat the 4 little pieces I give her and be fine. You know your dog best.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

anon what exactly is incorrect in the article regarding transmission?
HOLISTIC LOOK AT HEARTWORM PREVENTION

A few days ago, one of my friends living in Vermont called me. She was wondering what I thought about heartworm prevention. She asked me to help her determine if the monthly administration of heartworm preventive medication is really necessary. The question threw me back to the 90s when heartworm prevention drug manufacturers decided to take North America by storm. I remember the drug reps visiting vet clinics on a regular basis telling us that it was only a matter of time and heartworm would be widespread in Canada. These visits were also accompanied by a subtle suggestion that selling heartworm tests and preventive drugs could be a significant source of income for the practice.
As time progressed, the heartworm doom and gloom scenario didn’t happen and the risk of heartworm infection in my area was clearly exaggerated.

On the basis of my findings, I made the decision not to recommend heartworm preventive drugs in the area of my practice because the risk was practically zero and administering any drugs is never optimal. In reality, no one can be absolutely certain if preventive medication doesn’t increase the tendency to chronic disease, organ failure or even cancer down the road.

On the other hand, my friend’s situation is quite different because she lives in the eastern U.S., where heartworm is a real possibility. I saw her question as a great opportunity for me to review the lifecycle of heartworm once again to see if drug companies were honest about their recommendations for monthly prevention. To me, the monthly administration seemed to be kind of peculiar because, as far as I know, parasites do not carry an iPhone with a calendar and schedule.

I decided to bring clarity to the current situation to see what frequency is needed for heartworm preventive drugs and also tell you more about the heartworm prevention alternatives that I use with my dog Skai. In order to do so, I need to give you answers to the following questions:

What is the risk of heartworm disease in your area?

What is the minimal frequency of administering preventive drugs?

Are there any alternatives?

1. HEARTWORM INCIDENCE

The life cycle of heartworm is dependent on a temperature that remains above 57F (14C) for at least 45 days straight and at least two weeks of temperatures over 80F (26C). If these conditions are not fulfilled, the parasite cycle cannot be completed and your dog is safe.

Based on the recommendations of Dr. David Knight and Dr. James Lok from the American Heartworm society, even with the most cautious conventional medical protocols, a year-round heartworm preventive schedule is exaggerated with the exception of Florida, some parts of Texas and Hawaii. According to their conventional opinion, preventive treatment is unnecessary in the winter months and definitely doesn’t need to be started before or after the months noted on the map in their paper.

2. HEARTWORM LIFE CYCLE

Before you succumb to the marketing pressure and fear and administer heartworm medicine monthly, I urge you to learn more about the heartworm life cycle. Heartworm development goes through several stages before reaching maturity and it takes two-and-a-half to four months before the tiny stage of microfilaria leaves the muscles and starts settling in the pulmonary artery. When heartworm reaches its final destination in the pulmonary artery near the heart, it takes about three to four months to reach maturity.

One doesn’t need to have a degree in math to figure that it takes somewhere between five-and-a-half to eight months for microfilaria to mature into an adult worm and that your dog should be safe if you administer heartworm meds only once every three to four months if you live in an area where heartworm occurs.

So why would the drug companies recommend monthly heartworm prevention? The reason is clearly identified in Drs. Knight and Lok’s study:

“…given what is presently known, continued adherence to a policy of superfluous chemoprophylaxis is disquieting because financial expediency for the veterinarian conflicts with clinical objectivity and client consent is predicated on unrealistic expectations. Clients mistakenly believe that they are purchasing additional protection for their pets, but in reality they are not. If the truth was known to them, few clients would agree to unnecessarily double their expense for heartworm prevention.”

In real language, most vets are too busy to question the recommendations that drug companies give them about heartworm prevention. I strongly believe that the main reason for over recommending heartworm prevention (chemoprophylaxis) dose frequency is that drug companies can double or triple their revenues.

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3. SAFE ALTERNATIVE TO HEARTWORM PREVENTIVE DRUGS

My dog Skai and I travel to Hawaii approximately twice a year for two months and I had to face the dilemma of what to do about heartworm. I never felt totally comfortable about giving him any drugs because, in my mind, there is no such thing as a little bit of poison.

Luckily, advances in heartworm testing brought about DNA testing on the basis of PCR technology, which allows me to test three times a year for any presence of heartworm. This test has virtually no false negatives, which is great news for your dog.

I can see that these tests are a serious threat to the hefty profits of heartworm meds manufacturers because they are simply not needed if you follow this formula. The duration of the heartworm season can be found on the map on page 79 of the study.

Season Duration Number of Tests Required
(The last should be done at the end of the heartworm season)
Less than four months 1 test
Four – eight months 2 tests
Eight – 12 months 3 tests
Considering the facts above, in order to prevent heartworm and keep your dog safe, all you need to do is test your dog if you live in an affected area. If the results are positive (heartworm DNA is present) make sure that you consult your veterinarian before administering any heartworm meds. Heartworm preventive medication can be used only if adult heartworms are NOT present because using preventive drugs on adult heartworm can cause serious problems and a different treatment protocol must be used.

CONCLUSION

I regret to say that similar to the vaccination scam, monthly heartworm prevention is yet another dishonest marketing plot. What I am confused about is why drug companies continuously try to trick us and frighten us, instead of making a living the honest way. No matter what they are planning to try next, I believe that eventually, they will have to become more honest in order to survive because it is much more difficult to hide the truth in the age of worldwide web.

Wishing you a happy, more informed heartworm season.

© Dr. Peter Dobias, DVM

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[Patricia A]

Going to speak to my vet about this alternative. Might not be too costly since I don’t have mosquitos year round.
DNA Heartworm Testing: An Alternative
Before giving your dog any kind of heartworm drugs, you can do DNA testing to see if there are any microfilariae in his system. This testing is different from the regular test your vet will do to find adult heartworms. It’s based on PCR (polymerase chain reaction) technology and it’s not only very accurate, it also tests for heartworm larvae (the regular test only tests for adult heartworms). This means you can find (and then treat) any larvae before they become a real problem!

Heartworm DNA testing is available from HealthGene, a company that offers all kinds of DNA testing. Simply tell your vet to send your dog’s blood sample to HealthGene and the company will send back the results. Find them online here. If your dog tests positive, there are several natural, holistic options to treat the heartworm. If he tests negative, you’re good.

[Related] 5 Natural Heartworm Treatment Alternatives. Find them here.

How often do you need to test? Remember how I told you to keep that important number in mind? Here’s why it matters. Since it takes at least 5 ½ months for larvae to grow into adult heartworms, testing every 4 months will allow you to find those larvae before that happens and get rid of them. This means those adult heartworms, the ones that cause the problems, will never have a chance to fully develop. And testing every 4 months is only necessary in those areas where heartworms are a problem more than 8 months of the year. In those areas where the season lasts only 4 months, you really only need to test once a year, at the end of the season.

[Patricia A]

Ooops..Forgot to write after I copied and pasted my questions. Which if any heart worm medication do you use. Has anyone experienced side effects with any of the medications? Never gave all year since I live in the North East so have cold weather starting in the fall. Have an appointment with my vet for blood work. I want to get a heart med that ONLY kills the heart worm larva if my dog gets infected and NOT the all in one flea/tick and other parasites which I gave last year.
I just hate giving my two small dogs these poisons but I don’t want to take the chance .

[Patricia A]

Ooops.I knew that. I really should read the WHOLE article carefully especially when I post it. lol I hope so too Crazy4cats. I hope that when and IF this resolves that us pet owners can count on every dog food to be balanced properly and finally give us pet owners a chance to feel secure in what we’re feeding. Of course what one dog will more then thrive on might not be the same for the next but at least they’ll be choices that are just based on a dogs preference and maybe only tummy troubles with some foods and NOT causing deaths. Also I hope the manufactures stop thinking we’re not noticing when they ingredient split and give cheap fillers instead of meat and call it high protein and then still charge a lot to make even more of a profit . Of course again they’ll always be recalls from salmonella, plastic pieces etc. But at least then with too many we always had the choice to switch brands leading the company to be more careful or loose their good name and customers. But the vitamin d and other deadly things has got to stop altogether also. One time that happens and companies should be held accountable by big fines maybe and maybe then we won’t be getting so many recalls all the time. Just venting here. Now I feel better.

[Patricia A]

Anon Whole Dog Journal’s article regarding DCM sounds pretty science based to me. There are also articles in Whole Dog Journal regarding the negative effects of yearly vaccinations for our pets . Holistic is not voodoo science anyway. Where some vets will push everything the drug salesman brings to their practice, holistic vets questions the need and the worth of giving certain medications when at times the side effects are worse then the problem . Example flea and tick medicines. Some have devastating effects on the health of our pets and the vets don’t find out till it’s too late. Below is full Whole Dog Journals article .
DCM in Dogs: Taurine’s Role in the Canine Diet
What is taurine-deficiency dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM), and how can dog owners prevent it? (Hint: It involves more than just grain-free foods.)

By Linda P. Case – August 15, 20180

TAURINE FOR DOGS: OVERVIEW

Taurine Is Needed For:

1. Healthy heart function
2. As a component of bile acids
3. Retinal function
4. Reproductive health

Dietary Risk Factors for Reduced Taurine Status:

– Low-protein diet (limited taurine precursors)
– Heat-damaged or poor-quality protein sources
– High dietary fiber (i.e., rice bran, beet pulp, cellulose)
– Lamb and rice diets (speculated)
– Plant-based protein sources (peas, lentils, legumes) (speculated)

Possible Risk Factors for Taurine-Deficiency DCM:

BREEDS
American Cocker Spaniel
English Setter
Golden Retriever
Labrador Retriever
Newfoundland
St. Bernard

SIZE
Large-breed dogs
Dogs with slower metabolic rates

DIET
Factors that reduce taurine production
Factors that increase taurine-degrading microbes in the intestine
Factors that reduce bile acid production

In mid-July 2018, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) released an alert to veterinarians and pet owners regarding reports of increased incidence of a heart disease called canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). This disorder is characterized by weakening of the heart muscle, which leads to a decreased ability of the heart to pump, and if untreated, to cardiac failure. The reported cases occurred in breeds that are not considered to be genetically predisposed to this disorder.

Further, a significant number of the dogs were found to have reduced levels of circulating taurine in their blood and have responded positively to taurine supplementation. It is speculated that these cases are related to the consumption of foods that negatively affect taurine status, leading to taurine-deficiency DCM. Foods containing high levels of peas, lentils, other legume seeds, and/or potatoes were identified by the FDA as potential risk factors. These ingredients are found commonly in foods that are formulated and promoted as “grain-free.”

As these things go, there followed a lot of hype and a fair bit of hysteria in response. Let us avoid this type of reaction and instead look at the evidence: What do we currently know about the role of diet and taurine in the development of DCM in dogs – and how is it that “grain-free” foods have been recently targeted as a possible dietary cause?

grain free dog food concerns
Signs of Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Dogs

DCM is a disease of the heart, which causes the heart muscles themselves to weaken, which, in turn, reduces the ability of the heart to pump blood through the dog’s body as it should. The heart becomes enlarged and flabby, and fluid begins to accumulate in the dog’s lungs. As this condition progresses, it causes congestive heart failure.

Early signs of DCM may include:

– Lethargy, decreased energy
– A persistent cough
– Difficulty breathing, rapid or excessive breathing, or seeming shortness of breath
– Episodes of collapse
– Anorexia (chronic loss of appetite)

By the time these signs appear, the disease may already be fairly advanced. That’s why it’s important to make an appointment to see your veterinarian right away if your dog displays any of these signs, or more than one of these signs. Often, owners of middle-aged or senior dogs think that their dogs’ symptoms are “just old age,” but a quick diagnosis and treatment can restore an affected dog’s quality of life to nearly normal – and extend the dog’s life far past an untreated dog’s prognosis.

Treatment usually involves medications that help the dog’s heart to contract, slow his rapid pulse, help control the accumulation of fluid in his lungs, and dilate his blood vessels – all actions that will improve the heart’s performance.

What is Taurine? Why Do Dogs Need Taurine?

The nutrient taurine is a unique type of amino acid, called a beta-amino sulfonic acid. It is not incorporated into proteins but rather is found primarily as a free amino acid in body tissues and circulating in the blood. Taurine has many functions, but two that are important for this discussion involve its role in normal heart function and its presence as a component of bile acids, which are needed for fat digestion. Most animals obtain adequate taurine to meet their needs by producing it endogenously (in the body) from two other amino acids, methionine and cysteine.

This means that while most animals require taurine physiologically, most do not have a dietary requirement for taurine. The exception to this rule is the cat. Cats (but not dogs) always require a source of taurine in their food. If they do not have it, one of the diseases that they can develop (and possibly die from) is – you guessed it – DCM.

taurine structure
Taurine-deficiency DCM is well documented in cats. We also know quite a lot about the dietary factors that contribute to this disease in that species. In contrast, dogs (usually) do not require a source of dietary taurine. However, we know that some dogs still develop taurine-deficiency DCM. Why does this happen? The history of DCM in cats can help in untangling what may be occurring in dogs.

Taurine-Deficiency DCM in Cats

Looking back, I cannot avoid a sense of déjà vu. In the early 1980s, veterinarians began reporting increased incidences of DCM in pet cats. By 1987, a role for dietary taurine was suspected. In a seminal study, a veterinary researcher at UC Davis reported low plasma (blood) taurine levels in 21 cats with clinical signs of DCM. 1 When the cats were supplemented with taurine, all 21 recovered from the disease. This discovery led to a series of controlled studies that supported the existence of taurine-deficiency DCM in cats who were fed diets that contained sufficient concentrations of taurine.

What was going on?

It has to do with bile acids. Another role of taurine in the body is that it is necessary for normal bile acid function. Taurine is linked to bile acids in the liver to form bile salts. During digestion, these compounds are secreted into the small intestine, where they function to aid in fat digestion. Animals are very efficient at conserving the taurine that is secreted into the intestine by reabsorbing the bile salts back into the body further down the intestinal tract. This occurs through a process called “enterohepatic reutilization” and prevents a daily loss of taurine in the feces.

Herein lies the problem for cats with DCM: If anything happens during digestion that causes the degradation of the bile salt taurine or that inhibits its reabsorption into the body, more is lost in the feces. If this happens consistently, the cat will experience an increase in his or her daily need for dietary taurine. Simply put – if anything causes the cat to poop out more taurine-bile acid complexes (or their degraded by-products), the cat will be in danger of a taurine deficiency if a higher level is not provided in the diet.

This is exactly what was happening in the cats with taurine-deficiency DCM – and is possibly what we are seeing today in dogs. The difference is that we know what diet factors caused taurine deficiency in cats during the late 1980s. These factors are not yet fully understood for dogs (but we can make a few guesses).

What We Know About Diet and Taurine Status

The studies with cats found that several dietary factors influenced taurine status. These were the level and type of dietary protein, the amount and type of dietary fiber, and the degree of heat that was used during food processing. These factors could affect taurine status in three ways:

1. Bile Acid Binding

Certain fibers and peptides (small protein chains) in the food can bind with bile salts in the small intestine and make them unavailable for reabsorption into the body. This results in an increased daily loss of taurine in the feces and a subsequent increase in daily taurine requirement to replace that loss.

2. Increased Microbial Degradation

Thermal processing of protein (extrusion or canning) can lead to the production of Maillard products – complexes of sugars and amino acids that are poorly digested in the small intestine. The undigested complexes travel to the large intestine and provide an intestinal environment that favors increased numbers of taurine-degrading bacteria. An increase in these bacterial populations reduces the proportion of taurine that is available for reabsorption and reuse by the body.

3. Reduced Taurine Availability

Taurine is found naturally in animal-based proteins but is not found in plant-based protein sources. Therefore, providing diets that include a sufficient level of high-quality animal proteins (that are not heat damaged) should ensure adequate taurine intake.

However, protein that is of low quality or that has been excessively heat-treated will be poorly digested, reducing the availability of taurine and of its precursor amino acids, cysteine and methionine.

In the early 1990s, in response to this new information regarding the interaction of dietary factors and taurine status in cats (and their relationship to DCM in cats), the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) increased the recommendations for dietary taurine in extruded and canned cat foods.

Taurine Deficiency in Dogs

Unlike the cat, dogs who are fed diets containing adequate levels of protein should be capable of synthesizing enough taurine from cysteine and methionine to meet their needs. Therefore, a requirement for dietary taurine has not been generally recognized in dogs.

However, there is evidence – evidence that we have had for at least 15 years – that certain breeds of dogs, and possibly particular lines within breeds, exhibit a high prevalence of taurine-deficiency DCM. Genetically predisposed breeds include the American Cocker Spaniel, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Saint Bernard, Newfoundland, and English Setter.  Although the exact underlying cause is not known, it appears that some breeds have either a naturally occurring higher requirement for taurine or a metabolic abnormality that affects their taurine synthesis or utilization.

A second factor that affects taurine status in dogs is size. There is evidence that a large adult size and a relatively slow metabolic rate influences the rate of taurine production in the body and may subsequently lead to a dietary taurine requirement. It is theorized that increased body size in dogs is associated with an enhanced risk for developing taurine deficiency and that this risk may be exacerbated by a breed-specific genetic predisposition.

There is additional evidence that large and giant breed dogs have lower rates of taurine production compared with small dogs. Ultimately, studies suggest that certain dogs possess a genetic predisposition to taurine depletion and increased susceptibility to taurine-deficiency DCM and that this susceptibility may be related to the combined factors of breed, size, and metabolic rate.

Taurine in Dog Food Diets

The recent spate of cases and media attention to taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs suggests that this is a very new problem in dogs. However, it is not new. A connection between diet and DCM in dogs was first described in a paper published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association in 2001. What is new is the sudden focus on certain pet food ingredients and the target that appears to have been placed upon the backs of all “grain-free” pet food brands by some bloggers and veterinarians.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but the 12 cases of taurine-deficiency DCM described in the 2001 paper were collected between 1997 and 2001, years before grain-free dog foods had arrived on the pet food scene. Rather than disparage one class or type of dog food (or pet food company), it is more important to look at specific dietary factors that may be involved in DCM in dogs.

Generally speaking, these are expected to be the same as those identified for cats, including low protein levels, poorly processed or heat-damaged proteins (leading to Maillard products), and the inclusion of a high proportion of plant-based protein sources such as peas and legumes.

Over the past 15 years, reduced taurine status in dogs has been associated with feeding lamb meal and rice diets, soybean-based diets, rice bran, beet pulp, and high fiber diets. As with cats, there appear to be multiple dietary (and genetic) factors involved.

For example, it was theorized that the perceived (not proven) association between lamb meal and taurine status was due to low levels of available amino acids present in the lamb meal, or to excessive heat damage of the protein, or to the confounding factor of the inclusion of rice bran in many lamb meal-containing foods. To date, none of these factors have been conclusively proven or disproven. However, the most recent study showed that three types of fiber source – rice bran, cellulose, and beet pulp – all caused reduced plasma taurine levels in dogs when included in a marginally low protein diet, with beet pulp causing the most pronounced decrease.

Complicated? You bet. This is why it is important to avoid making unsupported claims about certain foods and brands. Taurine-deficiency DCM has been around for a while in dogs and continues to need study before making definitive conclusions about one or more specific dietary causes.

Current Considerations of Taurine in Dog Food

We know that any dietary factor that reduces the availability of taurine precursors, binds taurine bile salts in the intestine, or causes an increase in the bacteria populations that degrade taurine, can reduce a dog’s ability to synthesize taurine or will increase taurine degradation and/or loss in the feces. These changes could ultimately compromise a dog’s taurine status (especially if the dog was genetically predisposed) and affect heart health. In extreme cases, as we are seeing, this can lead to taurine-deficiency DCM (see “A Few Things to Know About Taurine” above).

The FDA report identified foods that contain high amounts of peas, lentils, legume seeds, or potatoes to be of potential concern. The FDA also stated that the underlying cause of DCM in the reported cases is not known and that at this time, the diet-DCM relationship is only correlative (not causative). However, this has not stopped various bloggers and even some veterinarians from targeting small pet food companies and/or grain-free brands of food, and implying that these foods, and these foods alone, are causing taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs. Their reasoning is that peas and legumes are present in high amounts in foods that are formulated and marketed as grain-free.

However, the truth is that many companies and brands of food include these ingredients. More importantly, there is no clear evidence showing that a particular dog food type, brand, or even ingredient is solely responsible for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

Rather, it is more reasonable and responsible to speculate that one or more of these ingredients, their interactions, or the effects of ingredient quality, heat treatment, and food processing may play a role. Furthermore, the underlying cause could be the protein, starch, or fiber fractions of these ingredients. As plant-source proteins, peas, lentils, and legumes include varying amounts of starch (both digestible and resistant forms) and dietary fiber. These protein sources are also generally less nutritionally complete and less digestible than are high quality animal source proteins – additional factors that could influence a dog’s ability to both produce and use taurine. Potatoes, in contrast, provide a digestible source of starch in an extruded food but also contain varying levels of resistant starch, which is not digested and behaves much like dietary fiber in the intestinal tract.

Conclusions on Grain-Free Food and DCM

Because any or all of these dietary factors could be risk factors for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs, and because peas, legumes, and other ingredients identified by the FDA report have not yet been fully studied, the heart of the matter is that no conclusions can yet be made about the underlying dietary cause or causes of taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

But given what we do know, we recommend feeding a diet that contains sufficient levels of high-quality, animal-source protein, does not include plant-source proteins as primary protein sources, and does not contain high levels of dietary fiber.

If you are worried about your dog’s taurine status or heart health, whether due to his diet history or physical signs that are of concern, see your veterinarian for a complete physical examination and, if needed, to measure plasma levels of taurine. 

Cited Studies

1. Pion PD, Kittleson MD, Rogers QR, et al. “Myocardial failure in cats associated with low plasma taurine: A reversible cardiomyopathy.” Science 1987; 237:764-768.

2. Earl KE, Smith PM. “The effect of dietary taurine content on the plasma taurine concentration of the cat.” British Journal of Nutrition 1991; 66:227-235.

3. Hickman MA, Morris JG, Rogers QR. “Effect of processing on the fate of dietary taurine in cats.” Journal of Nutrition 1990; 120:995-1000.

4. Hickman HA, Morris JG, Rogers QR. “Intestinal taurine and the enterohepatic circulation of taurocholic acid in the cat.” Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology 1992; 315:45-54.

5. Freeman LM, Rush JE, Brown DJ, et al. “Relationship between circulating and dietary taurine concentrations in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy.” Veterinary Therapeutics 2001; 370-378.

6. Backus RC, Ko KS, Fascetti AJ. “Low plasma taurine concentration in Newfoundland dogs is associated with low plasma methionine and cysteine concentrations and low taurine synthesis.” Journal of Nutrition 2006; 136:2525-2533.

7. Ko KS, Backus RC, Berg JR, et al. “Differences in taurine synthesis rate among dogs relate to differences in their maintenance energy requirement.” Journal of Nutrition 2007; 137:1171-1175.

8. Fascetti AJ, Reed JR, Roger QR, et al. “Taurine deficiency in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy: 12 cases (1997 – 2001).” Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 2001; 223:1137-1141.

9. Delaney SJ, Kass PH, Rogers QR, Fascetti AJ. “Plasma and whole blood taurine in normal dogs of varying size fed commercially prepared food.” Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 2003; 87:235-244.

10. Torres CL, Backus RC, Fascetti AJ, et al. “Taurine status in normal dogs fed a commercial diet associated with taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy.” Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 2003; 87:359-372.

11. Ko KS, Fascetti AJ. “Dietary beet pulp decreases taurine status in dogs fed low protein diet.” Journal of Animal Science and Technology 2016; 58:29-39.

Linda P. Case is the owner of AutumnGold Consulting & Dog Training Center in Mahomet, Illinois. Linda is the author of Dog Food Logic, has a new book, Dog Smart, and writes The Science Dog blog.

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• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Article in Whole Dog Journal sums it up for now at least.

Because any or all of these dietary factors could be risk factors for taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs, and because peas, legumes, and other ingredients identified by the FDA report have not yet been fully studied, the heart of the matter is that no conclusions can yet be made about the underlying dietary cause or causes of taurine-deficiency DCM in dogs.

But given what we do know, we recommend feeding a diet that contains sufficient levels of high-quality, animal-source protein, does not include plant-source proteins as primary protein sources, and does not contain high levels of dietary fiber.

[Patricia A]

Anon I buy mine sealed with origin where they are from is on the label. . However bins that have loose ones in various sizes are very popular. Yes..they smell. I guess I am not turned off that they are a cows penis since growing up as a child my european parents served us beef tongue for dinner. lol

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

Anon I use wrapped bully sticks made in USA. They chew for about 15 minutes and then I take it away. I’ve been letting both of mine chew on these for over eight years. As a pet owner I am very observant when something I fed caused vomiting or diarrhea. Never once in all the years has this happened. I would imagine if it’s so contaminated with bacteria that many dogs would be experiencing upset. At my local food store the bin is always low because it sells out after delivery by end of week.Most pet owners would take note that after their dog chews on bully sticks they get violently ill. I do give raw baby carrots to my one. The other one throws it all up the next day so she does not get them anymore.
Nothing is bacteria free. Even the great “big four”. Purina below

Nestle Purina Commits ‘Significant Violations’ at Pet Food Canning Plant

Article below includes of course Royal CANIN (Mars)
Millions’ of roaches plagued maker of Pedigree, IAMS, Cesar, other pet foods

By Phyllis Entis on June 7, 2018
The Mars Petcare U.S. Inc. low-acid canned pet food production facility in Columbus, OH, was crawling with an infestation of German cockroaches between October 2016 and July 2017. Mars markets wet dog and cat foods in cans, plastic tubs, and laminated pouches under the Pedigree, Cesar, Whiskas, Nutro and IAMS brands.

Pet food from the plant also generated consumer complaints about finding hard plastic pieces and a complaint about a elastic material in Mars’ pet foods.

On Oct. 7, 2016, Mars initiated a recall of 54,255 cases of CESAR Classics Filet Mignon Flavor canned dog food after the complaints about plastic. The recalled products were shipped to 36 states, including to three government facilities.

Ensuing inspections found the company had not completed repairs as promised.

Documents obtained by Food Safety News show during a July 2017 inspection of the Columbus facility, investigators from the Food and Drug Administration observed two significant deviations from current Good Manufacturing Practices (cGMP):

Failure to inspect, segregate, or otherwise handle raw materials and ingredients used in manufacturing under conditions that will protect the animal food against contamination and minimize deterioration; and
Failure to take effective measures to exclude pests from [the] plant and protect against contamination of animal food by pests.
Roaches and other pests
The infestation was first documented during an Oct. 27, 2016, comprehensive low-acid canned food (LACF) inspection by FDA, according to documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

Although Mars management undertook to address and remedy the infestation in October 2016, FDA investigators observed a live roach in the manufacturing area adjacent to an area where in-process raw materials and ingredients are maintained, and another near the main hand-wash station at the entrance to the manufacturing area during the July 2017 inspection.

According to the company’s Employee Pest Sighting Log, there were 99 instances of pest activity observed during a 72-day period from Nov. 10, 2016, to July 14, 2017, including one instance described as “millions of roaches.”

Employees also reported birds, spider webs, beetles, multiple flies, maggots and larvae on several occasions.

Mars contracts with a pest control operator (PCO) for routine rodent and insect control.

During their review of the PCO’s reports, FDA investigators found references to photographic evidence of pest activity, disrepair of dock doors, general disrepair of the building — including areas of ingress and egress — excessive spills of raw materials and damaged cans “covered” in flies. The photographs had not been retained by the company.

Several of the PCO observations regarding necessary repairs were repeated in multiple consecutive reports. For example, damage to a dock door was first reported on or about Sept. 26, 2016. The report was repeated after each visit until the door was finally repaired on or about Nov. 3, 2016.

Foreign objects – pieces of plastic
In addition to ongoing pest problems, Mars logged repeated violations related to the pieces of hard plastic that spurred the Oct. 7, 2016, recall.

During a March 31, 2017, recall follow-up inspection, Mars informed FDA that the firm had fully implemented corrective actions/preventative actions (CAPAs), including changing all food-contact white plastic material to a blue plastic material, enabling the presence of white plastic foreign objects to be detected more easily.

Despite this assurance, FDA inspectors were told on July 11, 2017, that only the “majority” of the belts and plastic wear plates on critical equipment had been changed out by that date.

As of the July 2017 inspection, Mars acknowledged that it was still receiving complaints from customers about foreign objects in its finished products.

FDA has received two new consumer complaints for plastic foreign objects in Mars canned, tubbed or pouched products since the inspection, according to an agency spokesperson. One of these was for an elastic-type object and the other was for two small, hard plastic pieces. The consumer did not provide a product lot number in the second case, and it is unclear whether the two complaints concerned product manufactured in the Columbus facility.

Refusals and obstruction
The Establishment Inspection Report (EIR) documents a lack of cooperation on the part of Mars management during the July 2017 inspection.

FDA investigators reported Mars officials refusing to cooperate on three points three during the course of the inspection, including:

Refusal to permit photography
Refusal to permit the review of consumer complaints
Refusal to provide photocopies of consumer complaints, manufacturing, shipping and pest control records.
In addition to the outright refusals reported in the EIR, investigators encountered delays in the production of requested documents and information, and denial of complete access to all areas of the facility.

When faced with a refusal, FDA investigators are expected to call attention to the relevant section of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act or the Public Health Service Act, and then to complete the inspection, according to Chapter 5 of the FDA Investigations Operations Manual (2018).

The company’s lack of cooperation resulted in a delay in the completion of the inspection, which was begun on July 11, 2017, but was not completed for more than two weeks, on July 26.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

LOL Joanne…it would take decades for the average pet food buyer to get used to THAT in dog food. Even if one million ph.d’s in vet nutrition said that the more feathers and fur tufts in the food the better. lol.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[Patricia A]

https://www.caninejournal.com/are-bully-sticks-good-for-dogs/

Bully sticks are natural and provide protein for your dog. It lasts a long time and comes in many sizes. What they’re made of isn’t so attractive but definitely a healthy alternative to other chews.

[Author]

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