[losul]

Cyndi, I tend to err on the side of caution.

Since you are going to the vet, you could wait for results before making any drastic changes, or drawing any kind of conclusions.

Does your vet already know, you are a raw feeder?

[losul]

Your welcome Cyndi.

Again, hyperthyroid maybe a more remote possibility, just thought it should mentioned as one.

Good, you aren’t using bone in grinds with the pre-mixes.

Looks like you are already using a good amount and assortment of organs which are already rich in certain vitamins/minerals, using those pre-mixes with them could make the meal as a whole overly rich in those same vitamins/minerals, not sure how much could become a problem. I think if you were to inquire to Steve Brown, he would likely be responsive to any questions.

[losul]

LOL, Betsy. Yes, I guess it did!

Those billy goats seemed to have been pretty well endowed. Being a guy, I cringe at the thought of actually feeding them, though. I’m kind of remorseful about it….

[losul]

Hi Cyndi.

Read your post and sorry to hear about Bailey’s problems. This might be far-fetched, but I’m going to put it out there anyway.

After reading what you are feeding and reading others initial thoughts about thyroidism brought something to my mind. Hypothyroidism, is more often the case and Hyperthyroidism (high thyroid) is pretty rare in dogs. I’m not knowledgeable about thyroid problems, but after some research, I found indications that hyperthyroidism can cause hair loss just as can hypothyroidism.

Awhile back, Aimee (thnx Aimee) brought up a study in which certain dogs that were fed raw diets developed hyperthyroidism-high thyroxine levels (dietary hyperthyroidism). It turns out that these dogs were either eating tracheas and gullets or eating other meats that had the thyroid glands inadvertently ground up with them. Anyway that study much impacted me, and it would never have occurred to me if Aimee had not brought it up. At the time I was feeding MPC’s beef tripe supermix sometimes (it kind of sounds like you are using it, and as a staple?). Anyway, MPC’s ground beef tripe supermix has 10% trachea and gullet in it. I was concerned enough that I inquired to Paul about it a couple of times, wanting to make sure they were careful not to include the thyroid gland in the supermix. I wasn’t reassured that it didn’t have thyroid gland in it, so I quit feeding it. I still buy some things from MPC, but nothing with trachea or gullet, and not chicken products for other reasons. Just got a new order Friday, it even included goat gonads ( ouchee).

At first this study might sound like another raw feeding bash, but I see no real apparent conflicts of interest in it., it has happened with humans also, “Thyrotoxicosis factitia, as this is called in human medicine, has been reported in people eating hamburgers containing ground beef thyroid or eating excessive amount of sausages containing thyroid hormones (Malvinder and Sturge 2003, Conrey and other 2008, Hendriks and Looij 2010).”

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01189.x/full

As I said, it might be far fetched, as it seems like other symptoms might be present if it were hyperthyroidism, maybe even weight loss and hyperactivity. But if you were to get her checked, and it would turn out to be HIGH thyroxine levels….. Also know that if it were dietary hyperthyroidism, it is easily reversable.

Cyndi, there is another possible problem I can see. Are you using the pre-mixes such as SSLL with a complete grind- meat, bones, organs and tripe? Those pre-mixes are really designed to use with muscle meats only- no bones or organs. Alot of folks would say that the MPC beef tripe supermix (if that’s what you are using) is (or should be if in right proportions) completely balanced by itself. I would say it should be very close to balanced, and shouldn’t ever have the full supplementation that you are adding with the pre-mixes, IMO. The pre-mixes add all the vitamins/minerals needed in absence of bone and organs. For just one thing an overabundance of calcium/phosphorus, if you are using bone in grinds with the pre-mixes. You aren’t using cod liver oil also, I hope? I think excessive calcium, especially along with excessive vitamin D, can be a cause of hypercalcemia. Parathyroid and thyroid glands attempt to regulate blood calcium/phosphorus.

Whatever it may be, I hope Bailey gets better very soon!

[losul]

O.K., O.K., you got me!!

I loved the title you chose for your post. If you had wrote something like “Looking for a good dog food that blankety, blank, blank, for blankety, blank, blank”, I very likely wouldn’t have even read it, and left it for others more capable to help. As it was, how could I resist the challenge!!

Unfortunately, what you are requesting with all those parameters in a kibblet, is likely and truly “Mission Impossible”.

I can come close to, but the fat the fat percentage is a bit less than what you request. (12%). Also it’s equally as expensive as the NL, and more than regular wellness core. Wellness Core large breed 34/12 3540 cal/kg., 346 cal/cup. It’s only slightly less calorie dense than regular Wellness Core at 3660 cal/kg (3.5%) and 420 cal/cup. The main reason so big a difference in cal/cup is because the kibble size is large for the large breed. A cup of stones weighs less than a cup of sand. weight and volume don’t go hand in hand.

http://www.chewy.com/dog/wellness-core-grain-free-large-breed/dp/54100

This message will self destruct in 5 seconds… 😀

• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Lisa: yes good news on keeping it down this time. Has the vet ever communicated to you what he/she thinks has been the cause of the vomiting then? Seem’s to be some communication issues and antagonism from both sides, it might be time to find a new vet relationship, Will you be switching vets now?

Lisa, that earlier pic I linked was of a very large hernia, the opening of which may have been large enough as to not restrict intestinal flow.

These pics are also definitely large enough hernias for the intestines to fall through, and they have, but they are small enough to restrict intestinal flow and cause problems;

http://www.firehousechihuahuas.com/UmbilicalHernia.jpg

http://www.asiahomes.com/dogpix/030603tn_umbilical_hernia_11weeks_Shih_Tzu_Singapore.jpg

This one would be considered a small hernia, and apparently the intestines haven’t pushed through the opening to a large degree…yet….

http://www.waggintailsdachshunds.com/Lance%20Bubble%202.JPG

Bobby dog; Thnx! Yes important to be aware, the Docs aren’t always so aware, but they definitely hear all the “plusses” from the pharmaceutical companies. Glad to hear the eventual outcome for you and family was more positive than it could have been otherwise!
————————
Be sure to ask your doctor if “blank” is right for you, even though the pharmas TV ad gave no indication what the drug was for, sheesh. Thank goodness for DVR’s, lol.

[losul]

You’re very welcome Betsy, and thank you for your ability to think “outside of the box” in the first place.

[losul]

Lisa, I’ve been thinking about Chewy. Hopefully you have started to be able to keep badly needed nutrition in him now?

Some questions about his umbilical hernia, large or small? Has it gotten larger over the last several months? Is it painful to the touch for Chewy? I’m wondering if for some reason, perhaps financial, you had delayed the procedure, because in general a vet would do it by 5 or 6 months if they were pushing the time frame out to allow for spaying/neutering at the same time, otherwise probably earlier, and especially if it was causing problems or growing in size. From what I can determine Chewy is now about 9 months old. With a very small hernia, it might be only a bit of fat that pokes through the hole in the abdominal wall. With a larger hole, a loop of the intestine might drop into the sac and cause restriction which could definitely make Chewy vomit. Worse, a more severe restriction could even strangulate the intestine with much more dire consequences. Occaisonally the hole may even begin to close on it’s own by about 6 months. If the intestines are outside of the abdominal musculature structure and it begins closing……

This would be a large umbilical hernia, and no doubt the intestines have dropped into the sac. This one might be large enough not to substantially restrict or strangulate the intestines, depending on the actual size of the hole. It’s still quite dangerous.

http://www.faqs.org/photos/hernia-2773.jpg

“The symptoms associated with a hernia, like the one pictured in Figure 1 and 2 may initially relate to the inability of food to pass through this constricted section of intestine. Muscles within the wall of the intestine are responsible for moving food and water through the organ. Waves of contractions called peristalsis propel the contents along the length of the intestine. When an obstruction is encountered, like the one described, the peristaltic waves reverse direction and move the food backward through the entire digestive tract. This results in food and water being vomited.”

http://www.americananimalcare.com/pethealth/hernia_surgery_dogs_cats_umbilical_diaphragmatic_irguinal.html

I don’t know what is causing Chewy’s vomiting, but it’s really serious stuff to be vomiting everyday for many months, and a pup at that. You really must work on getting to the cause and very soon.

BTW, if Chewy’s case even has anything to do with acid production, low acid production can cause the same symptoms as too much acid production. I’d think thrice about self medicating with acid inhibitory drugs, especially at inspecific dosages, and remember he’s ONLY an 8 to 9 lb malnourished pup. 1/2 or 1/3 of an adult human dose???? Stomach acid is even more important to the dog, a carnivore. Acid is needed for proper digestion, especially protein digestion, acid is needed for the stomach to empty correctly, and failure to do so results in GERD. Stomach acid is a defense against bacterial infections and fungal infections, certain vitamins and minerals also require acid to be absorbed such as calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, selenium, B-12, etc. Improper digestion of foods can lead to to large of particles getting into the lower digestive tract and causing allergies, diarrhea, pathogenic bacterial fermentation, etc. Acid stimulates pepsin to be released into the stomach for digestion, and for pancreatic enzymes and bile to be released into the small intestine to further digest carbs, fats and proteins. I could keep going on and on. Proper overall health begins with proper acid production. Improperly diagnosing, and prohibiting or shutting down acid production with zantac, prilosec, etc. could be the start of a vicious circle and downward spiral of, helicobacter overgrowth/ infections leading to ulcers, other pathogenic infections, colitis, gastroenteritis, IBD, pancreatitis, allergies, diabetes, malnourishment, inability to digest all but the simplest of foods (hydrolyzed), dependence on inhibitors, evermore drugs to staunch the symptoms (like metronidazole and steroids) and mask the root cause, and ever declining health. Be very careful….. and best wishes Lisa.

I wonder why acid inhibitors are some of Pharma, Inc’s. biggest blockbusters of all time?

• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Melissa, I just got around to reading the forum side today. I too am very sorry to hear the news. Also, I am sorry i was harsh on the other side.

[losul]

Oh jeez, the advice was only a single teaspoon of ACV, diluted at least 100% with water and mixed into the dog’s food.

[losul]

Hi Sue66b,

I know you are trying to be helpful, like everyone else, and I truly feel for you and Patch.

You might find it counterintuitive, but I actually thought Betsy’s suggestion for trying ACV was a reasonable and sensible one with little harm done if it didn’t work. It works or it doesn’t. I think there’s a decent chance it could’ve helped, and if it were me I would have been willing to give a try, if only for a short period. It’s inexpensive, non-toxic, and could actually have been a simple solution. It would have been much better if it had been tried sooner before Lisa’s pup’s situation became as dire, but at least it’s good that her pup is now going back to the vet today.

You actually said “ask ur new vet can you have a script & try the Metronidazole,” ( I’ve seen you say similar to others) Vets know all about metronidazole and prednisone without asking them or pressuring them to “try” it. Metronidazole is a very important antibiotic/drug, but can be dangerous and one that shouldn’t be taken indiscriminately, especially not to just to “try” it for diarrhea without knowing what may be causing it. It has some immuno-suppressive and anti-inflammatory effects in the digestive system, but how often is that temporary and not getting to the root problem? It’s a good thing human doctors don’t prescribe it as freely as some vets seem to, or at least I hope they don’t, and especially with repeated and/or higher dosage rounds. Ask any woman that had to take flagyl(metro) at high and/or repeated dosages for certain bacterial infections. Chances are they then expirienced serious yeast overgrowth, or a new yeast infection,- oral thrush, esophageal thrush, vaginal candida, etc., and then had to take fluconazole for the yeast infection. There’s also the issue of certain bacteria selectively building up resistance such as clostridium, staph species, etc. In some humans, sometimes even vancomycin is sometimes no longer very effective against serious c. difficile infections. Hopefully for those folks, whose benificial bacterial flora has been obliterated and can’t seem to ever get the upper hand, fecal matter transplants from healthy donors could hold the key. And maybe some day for dogs also….
__________________________________________________________________
My intent is NOT to scare folks from metronidazole altogether, just to make them more aware, not to take it’s usuage lightly. As I’ve said, it’s a VERY important drug when it’s really needed.
_____________________________________________________________________

Nothing to do with you Sue, but for others-I’m a firm believer that it should not be used as a first line defense for giardia, when there is a safer, cheaper, usually more effective, non antibiotic alternative-fenbendazole (panacur).

Here’s what CAPC Companion Animals Parasite Council says;

No drugs are approved for treatment of giardiasis in dogs and cats in the United States.

Metronidazole is the most commonly used extra-label therapy; however, efficacies as low as 50% to 60% are reported. Safety concerns also limit the use of metronidazole in dogs and cats.

Albendazole is effective against Giardia but is not safe in dogs and cats and should not be used.

Fenbendazole (50 mg/kg SID for 3 to 5 days) is effective in eliminating Giardia infection in dogs. Fenbendazole is approved for Giardia treatment in dogs in Europe, and available experimental evidence suggests that it is more effective than metronidazole in treating Giardia in dogs.

and their reccomendations;

CAPC recommendations for treatment of dogs

Administer fenbendazole (50 mg/kg SID) for 5 days.

Alternatively, fenbendazole (50 mg/kg SID) may be administered in combination with metronidazole (25 mg/kg BID) for 5 days. This combination therapy may result in better resolution of clinical disease and cyst shedding.

If treatment combined with bathing (see Control and Prevention) does not eliminate infection (as evidenced by testing feces for persistence of cysts), treatment with either fenbendazole alone or in combination with metronidazole may be extended for another 10 days.

http://www.capcvet.org/capc-recommendations/giardia/

—————-

Metronidazole is known to cause cancer in mice and rats, it’s not proven to do so in humans or dogs, but here’s what the U.S. National

Toxicology Program (NTP) says;

“Metronidazole is reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen based on sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity from studies in experimental animals”

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/twelfth/profiles/metronidazole.pdf

————————

[losul]

Dawn, probably testing is more reliable today than when I had to deal with it, particularly if your vet combines the newer SNAP ELISA test with 1 or 2 of the other methods. Back then, testing was notoriously unreliable, with numerous false negatives occurring. Here is some more info from CAPC, including what you can to to prevent any further contamination, and also help on deciding whether to give your other dogs precautionary preventative doses of panacur.

http://www.capcvet.org/capc-recommendations/giardia/

[losul]

C4C, it is frustrating at times. I don’t want to become distrustful of all vets either. Basically I think most of them mean well, just that they are sometimes not aware of implications beyond what they have been taught. We will always need them and their knowledge, but it really does pay to educate ourselves also as best we can.

fenbendazole is the generic drug name for brand names panacur and safe guard. As far as i know those are the only 2 brand names, and I think they are both made by Intervet.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Hi C4C,

We had our own repeated nightmarish and costly experience with giardia and our previous dog about 10 years ago. I finally took matters into my my hands, researched and “discovered” panacur, as the vets never once even suggested it to us. It was what finally worked for Buster.

[losul]

I can remember when I was a young kid, in the middle of eating at the dinner table my father would often and suddenly begin coughing, choking and I’m pretty sure vomiting too (he would always go the bathroom when this happened.). It was always very scary for all of us. He was diagnosed with a hiatal hernia. Eventually he finally had surgery which cured or at least mostly cured it for him. I don’t know or can’t remember whether he ever took antacids or anything.

Glad to hear your Frenchie girl is doing so well!!!!

• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Sue66b, i don’t understand your pressing for using either metronidazole or prednisone. They have their uses in certain instances no doubt, but i would consider both of them dangerous drugs, and for me, a vet would have to provide very specific and justified reasons for wanting to ever give them to my dog.

Did you ever start Patch on Prednisone?

[losul]

I am glad your vet is trying panacur first as a first line defense. Most vets just indiscriminately give metronidazole first which I would consider a dangerous antibiotic, not very effective against giardia anyway, and can cause many other problems. Or many often regretfully prescribe metro as a “catch all” for practically any digestive ailments. Giardia is not a bacteria, it’s a parasitic protozoan. And many vets don’t even know about using panacur for giardia, because giardia is not a worm either.

Panacur is a relatively very safe OTC intestinal dewormer that just so happens to also be the most effective thing for giardia, I believe. It’s an “off label” use of panacur for giardia.

Your vet is right, it can be tricky to get rid of giardia, and can also be very difficult to detect in feces, as the giardia do not always shed cysts in feces. The giardia alternates between an actively swimming trophozoite and an infective, resistant cyst.

If I were you, I wouldn’t fool around with it, i would go ahead and give your pup a second round of panacur for 4 to 5 days, 10 to 14 days after the first round, even if your pup is no longer showing any symptoms. It can burrow into the intestinal mucosol lining and encyst, waiting for opportune times to again cause problems.

Some dogs can beat giardia or keep in check very easily, others cannot, more severe cases can end up with severe damage to the intestinal villi, mucosal lining, and other intestinal damage.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[losul]

I give tinned sardines and salmon sometimes, but I also get a bottle of this every 3 months.

It’s way more than 1 35lb dog can use in 3 months, so I use it myself also. I keep in the door of frig and give 1 pump daily, eezy peezy, as Aimee would say, lol.. At 3 months it begins to taste fishy as it peroxidizes, even though it is preserved with mixed tocopherols, so I throw it out and replace. At 4 months it’s most definitely starting to taste rancid.

You can buy a smaller bottle, but it costs almost as much as the large.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 9 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Trying this all over again, leaving out the last link this time…..

Hi Sueb66. The test for EPI would be a specific test for it, not included in ordinary blood work. I think in the U.S., Texas A.M. still does most of the current testing. If there is a B-12 deficiency and it is EPI related, no, an ordinary human B-12 supplement for it would
NOT work well at all. There is more info on the EPI sites, I provided to Jerry. Notice what the vet says about EPI in discussing IBD in the first link below, except she refers to it as PEI instead.

I can truly understand your frustration, and wanting to get a more reasonable solution than a surgical biopsy, and/or treatment with steroids which seems extreme, scary and a last/near last resort, I would be too. To be fair though, I can imagine your conventional vet(s) probably get frustrated also, and would much rather get a clearer diagnosis and treatment plan.

I don’t really know exactly how long all this has been going on, exactly what diagnostic testing has been already done, what has been ruled out and what has not, what medicines/treatments/alternatives/supplements have been tried, how much and whether you have adhered to your vets’ reccomendations etc. I also don’t really know what kind of diagnostics, drugs, supplements, foods etc. are available there in Australia. I can’t really say what i would do, as I’m not in your shoes, and so much is unknown. All one can do is research as best as possible, see that hopefully all the bases have been covered, learn risks, gain more knowledge, come up with some possible answers/solutions/alternatives, and make good decisions.

IBD is a pretty generalized but often complex condition, that can have several root causes and much interconnectibility with other issues. It basically means a chronic inflammation of the digestive tract. Left uncontrolled it can lead to more serious issues. I would guess the vets have explained that to you? A more holistic or integrative vet may come to some of the same conclusions as your current vets, but would likely differ on exact course(s) of action/approach. Perhaps you should still seek one out or try the one you mentioned?

Hopefully pointing you to some additional articles may help some;

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=598&S=0&EVetID=0

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2006&Category=&PID=16071&O=Generic

http://dogaware.com/health/digestive.html#ibd

[losul]

Hi Sueb66. I replied to you, but for some reason it didn’t appear to post. Tried again and it said was rejected as a duplicate of what I already said. So I guess it’s in some kind of limbo, maybe because I included 4 links in it? I have still a copy of my reply, so maybe I’ll try again later.

[losul]

Jerry was just reading on the global span site – So i Guess even though coco oil is very easily digested and takes very little enzymatic action to do so, it might still be advisable to incubate first;

“Incubating supplements.
Some supplements should be incubated, because they require digestion
Example: Kelp, fish oils, coconut oils
Some supplements should not be incubated, or they will be destroyed
Example: Probiotics (such as acidophilus)
For some supplements, it doesn’t seem to matter
Example: L-Glutamine
Whether or not a supplement should be incubated can be confusing. A general rule of thumb is that if it’s a food-like substance which likely contains carbohydrates, fats, or proteins, it should be incubated. Some supplements may contain fillers or extra ingredients that require incubation, so read labels closely. Good advice on this topic is available from the K9-EPIGLOBAL Yahoo Group.”

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Jerry, here is more sites for info; but I think epi4dogs may have the most up to date info;

http://www.globalspan.net/epi.htm

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjepi.html

and a yahoo group

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/k9-EPIGLOBAL/info

I agree with the Nut on the coconut oil, it also has antimicrobial, and some anti-inflammatory properties.

[losul]

Jerry, I think you’ll find this a great site for info about EPI.

http://www.epi4dogs.com/

They also have an active forum where you can participate and ask questions.

http://www.epi4dogs.com/apps/forums/

According to epi4dogs, most EPI dogs do respond best to a low fiber diet and higher or mid range protein food, but it may take some experimentation to find what works best for your dog. Have you considered raw or homemade food?

Also according to them, <b>unless there is a concurrent medical condition</b>, It’s usually best not to restrict fat intake, <b>as long as they are receiving the proper type and dose of enzymes, and B12 and antibiotics if needed</b>.

If your dog also has SIBO and B12 deficiencies, I think it’s usually much safer to try tylosin/tylan first rather than metrondiazole, which I would consider a dangerous antibiotic, especially in longer terms.

If cost of the pancreatic enzymes is an issue, enzymediane has a cost analysis, I think you will find theirs the lowest pricing ordering direct from them (pancreatin 6X or 8X)

http://www.enzymediane.com/enzymecomparisonchart.htm

It sounds like you are preparing the food with the enzymes correctly. (with water, near room temp., 20 minutes, etc. ) but maybe you need to experiment with the dosages?
——————

Sue66b, I know you and Patches have been through a tremendous lot and I really feel for you and Patches. Always wanted to tell you that I think Patches is a VERY handsome fellow. Would love to see a good and long lasting solution for Patches troubles. Just wondering, since Patches has had repeated bouts of pancreatitis, which can damage the pancreas ability to produce enzymes, also insulin, and also has SIBO ( I think?), has he ever been tested and diagnosed with EPI? Have you ever tried pancreatic enzymes?

“· Always confirm EPI with a trypsin-like immunoreativity (cTLI) blood test (12 hour fast). Normal range is between 5.0 – 35.0
· Whenever there is persistent gastro upsets and weight loss, it is advisable & economical to do a cTLI blood test.”

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Dori, thinking about you and Hannah as you take her in for her catheterization today. Will you have definitive results today? Even if it is confirmed, it sounds like you will have caught it very early on.

Best wishes,
losul

[losul]

Dori, most of what I have read strongly suggests that transitional cell carcinoma in the urinary tract is possibly entirely environmental and in canines it’s suggested that’s it’s suspected causal agents may be certain flea control products and cyclophosphamide. Cyclophosphamide is ironically used as a chemotheraphy and autoimuune disorder agent. There are other predisposing factors such as repeated urinary infections, dogs required to hold their urine for lengthy periods, etc.

Causes
Flea-control products (organophosphates and carbamate) and cyclophosphamide.

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cancer/c_dg_urinary_carcinoma

[losul]

Dori, while I think that Mercola’s product is likely a great supplement product for overall health, and Dr. Becker does bring up some good points about whole vs isolates, If it were me, in Hannah’s case targeting cancer, I would be much more inclined to try the targeted and concentrated isolate extracts in K-9 immunity. Both companies use lab grown shrooms under controlled conditions- no China grown shrooms, most of these mushrooms are native to the Far East. You might want to consider Mercola’s supplemental product for your other dogs.

Also I think I would use just the straight K-9 immunity and add transfer factor, instead of K-9 immunity plus, which might contain some added questionable ingredients.

Also, I don’t know much about these, but apocaps could be something to look into…..

http://www.dogcancer.net/apocaps-info.php

Turbos doing well. I’ll write more on that later. I don’t know what, if anything, should be changed in Hannah’s diet. Does your vet(s) know what you have been feeding?

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Dori, It pains me to hear this, yet I can’t imagine the immense pain you are going through, so so sorry. You have a lot of people in your corner wishing you and yours the best, I can be counted amongst those. As others have said, Hannah could not be in better hands, Dori.

I’m usually kind of reserved/cautious about the claims of some supplements, but the power of medicinal mushrooms is one I have previously researched and have some faith in. A few of them of them, I sometimes use in cooking. I decided that if my circumstances ever warranted, I would definitely consider giving them a shot therapeutically for my dog. K-9 immunity and transfer factors that Denise A mentioned, is one that I had looked into, and liked.

Dog Cancer Home

[losul]

I had to look up ARD. Stands for antibiotic responsive diarrhea. I think it’s a generalized term that’s basically the same or very similar to SIBO small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

Frances, you stated that your vet wants to run numerous tests before treating for “the obvious” What do you consider obvious? I think your vet wants to do whats best and get to the cause of the bacterial overgrowth instead of just treating the symptoms by repeatedly loading up on dangerous antibiotics, such as metronidazole just to have the same symptoms reappear upon stopping them, and maybe making things worse in the longer term.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Julie, I think the total weight of the diet you are giving ( about 9, 10 ounces or so) should be pretty much in line for reducing weight for a dog that should weigh about 24 lbs., barring some sort of metabolism issue and I don’t think the problem is from a few low-carb veggies. I would suspect your dogs diet is disproportionally very high in fat (skin) and bone (bone marrow also has high fat content), especially the chicken wings, which are mostly skin and bone. I would feed more lean meats (skinless chicken breasts and/or thighs) with any other visible fat removed) and less bone. Some lean red meat instead of only chicken would also balance the fats better.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 11 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Patty, you could get the whole family involved with those kitchen utensils while making the dog food, turn the racket into music, and start your own version of “Stomp Out Loud””, hehe.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Stomp+Out+Loud+Kitchen&Form=VQFRVP#view=detail&mid=3D88F743A53E92FFF8143D88F743A53E92FFF814

Looks like fun!

[losul]

C4C, I’ll try that 2 bowl method sometime, but skeptical it would work on some of the garlic i’ve had-very tough to get peeled. Maybe i could put them in a clean paint can, take to the hardware store, and put on the paint shaker.

I should have read the bag on what I have, unfortunately I assumed that most garlic still comes from Gilroy, Ca. It’s Spiceworld brand, but I just read it and this says “product of China.”, sheesh.

[losul]

Very helpful, just what I was looking for. thnx Betsy. I wouldn’t have even thought to crush it and waiting 15 minutes before freezing, I would have just tried freezing it whole cloves!

Now that you mention it, i do remember folks saying easy tips for peeling, but it’s one of those things i just can’t remember their methods

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[losul]

I hate peeling garlic, so the other day i bought a 3 pound bag of peeled cloves from Sam’s club for only 6 bucks. There’s no way I can use all of it in 6 weeks-the expiration date, so i was wondering if I can freeze most of it and still retain all the beneficial properties. Anyone know?

[losul]

Hi Darcy, just wanted to say that kidney/urinary tract bacterial infections can bring on on a higher PH in themselves, as these bacteria produce enzymes that create a more amenable alkaline environment for themselves.

Just some other thoughts you might investigate, not sure how much basis they have, l’m also wondering about the liquid kelp. Don’t know how much you are giving of this, but I imagine it would be a concentrated form of kelp, and much more bioavailable. Not sure if/how high iodine amounts and thyroid activity can effect PH, but I would also imagine the liquid form would also be very high in calcium and magnesium, 2 minerals that are very alkaline.

Excess vitamin D/A could maybe be a factor also?, not sure how much cod liver oil you are giving. I prefer to use small amounts of whole meat liver (5 to 7%, from quality sources for A, D, and B vitamins) in the diet, and then use other fish oils (sardine, krill, anchovy, salmon) for omega 3’s.

Lastly what quantity of ground eggshells are you adding to a pound of meat?

[losul]

Oh wow, I’m glad I finally read this thread. Lot’s of really interesting pasttimes/hobbies, but then…….

First Marie wanting to put petunias on her “hanging baskets”

and then Dori’s hubbie’s preference for planting twolips, oops I mean tulips, there instead.

OMG, ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thnx, I so much needed some comic relief!!!!!!!!!

[losul]

Sorry about the delayed responses.

InkedMarie, Thanks for posting. I did find the link you provided helpful. Helped me to realize more, that while it is a really scary and serious thing, but that there is a difference between being HW positive and lower levels of worms and having significant HW disease. It also got me to thinking more about using some supportive supplements.

Shawna, again, very helpful links, not just about timing for seasonal HW preventatives, but also other things. Thank you. I’ve never posted a pic of Turbo yet, but it’s on my to do list as soon as I get caught up on things. Because of the cumulative effects, I guess the advantage multi could be started a little earlier than the others and stopped earlier for using seasonal HWP. But it’s also because of those cumulative effects and the added and unwanted flea killer, that I doubt I will use for HWP, beyond using for treatment. I also noted in your second link that advantage multi is not often even used during treatment.

I’m also thinking now that it is still senseless for me to give Turbo HWP’s year round. (once he is HW free). Even if I up the dosage months to 9 or 10 months, a break of 2 or 3 months from it, is better than no break, and shouldn’t be any risk of infection anyway during the coldest months.

Aimee, I agree 100% with your critical thinking in the the case of Mr. Piggy/Dr. Falconer.
Not so sure either about his “homeopathic” remedies, i.e. sulphur, calcarea carbonica, graphites (is that actually given internally?)

I also got to reading some other alternative treatments elsewhere such as black walnut extract, wormwood, etc. Some of those seem would be as/or more so, toxic as conventional drug treatments. But I think I will start using some garlic.

Update: Turbo had his X-rays Wednesday. The vet went over them with me, and in general thought they looked pretty good. He didn’t see anything at that time that would cause him to downgrade him from class 1 to class 2. Although he did have some things he wanted the visiting radiologist to look at and review (the heart) when he comes in again, I think on April 8. The lungs looked mostly pretty clear and pulmonary arteries he thought looked pretty good. I’m definitely leaning towards a slower kill protocol (rather than the harsh immiticide, steroids, and painkillers, and the vet seems fine with that, although he is still adamant about continuing with the Advantage multi, rather than ivermectin, me I’m not entirely sure Advantage multi will be as effective as ivermectin on fully mature worms, according to what I have read. Also if not going with immiticide, he wants to get going on the doxycycline sooner. He is saying just 2 weeks of doxy. Most of what i read says 4 weeks, or pulsing it. I also told him I had a 2nd HW test done that indicated low antigen, and that that vet thought it indicated lower worm load.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[losul]

Shawna. So funny about the Biscuit/Yoda names. Turbo was “Wiggles” at the shelter, lol. I think they maybe called him that primarily to soften his image to potential adopters 🙂

Thanks again for the info. We have such weird changing weather patterns here anymore. We just had a harsh, cold, snowy, winter which we hadn’t had for many years, some other years, trees had already started to leaf out already in January, Feb., the winter was so mild. Later frosts would really mess the trees/plants up. A week or so ago we had a couple of days into the 60’s only to turn real cold again quickly. Yesterday temperatures actually hit 80, but dropped back into 40’s last night. The same is expected for today, low 80’s before turning colder again. How does a person know when mosquito season actually starts? Would a person consider it already/near started and begin HWP now or within a month if not already on it?

[losul]

Thank you Cyndi! Yep I missed that somehow.

Shawna, you’re right the pic not so clear, but he looks to be a precious “monster”, can’t wait to see more. THNX!

[losul]

Hi Shawna, did you already post some “monster” pics? Somehow I either missed or am not getting them.

What you say, was also what i had always thought before, and is logical. Now I’m unsure about some things. It’s hard to determine exactly when the season starts, when larva could be developing in mosquitos, etc., at least for me anyway, maybe that’s why they are saying to start a month before now, to be on the safer side? , And not entirely sure that it’s always as effective 30 or so days post infection?

I had Turbo HW tested again yesterday (Sunday) at Vetco. They used the IDEXX snap antigen test, and again he tested positive. The Vet there showed me the results on the device, and explained and compared them with what was shown in the IDEXX brochure. It indicated low antigen levels, and in that vet’s opinion probable low adult worm load. The positive control turned a solid dark blue as it always should. The low antigen indicator turned a blue with about half the density of the control. The high antigen indicator was nearly altogether unoticeable, until the vet pointed it just out a very slight blue tinge. Otherwise I didn’t even see it. In the IDEXX literature it definitely looked most like the pic for the low antigen levels. Scroll down to “interpreting test results”.

http://www.idexx.com/pubwebresources/pdf/en_us/smallanimal/snap/heartworm/snap-heartworm-pkg-insert.pdf

From there it was reccommended to see regular vet. Vetco doesn’t look for microfilaria.

My vet didn’t show me the results of his test, and didn’t say anything about high/low level antigens. I don’t know what kind of test he used. He just said he was positive on antigens, and they then looked for microfilaria and confirmed. It could have been really helpful to me to know the level from the start. I have an appointment for X-rays Wednesday. I still haven’t determined an exact course of treatment yet, again I hate to use any more harsh chemicals, steroids, and drugs than actually needed for his best interest.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[losul]

Weezer, just to make myself clear, when I say “slowing elimination times” , I’m talking about the elimination times of the drug from the body (the time it takes before the drug is gone), and I’m NOT talking about slowing the elimination time of any HW larvae.

[losul]

Hi weezer. Milk thistle had nothing to do at all, nada, with making my dog more susceptible to heartworms. I feel that other completely unrelated things I did/neglected to do, were to likely to blame.

I myself take milk thistle sometimes, I always have some on hand, but I’ve actually rarely given it to my dog, and not with any consistency, but that’s mainly because I forget, otherwise I wouldn’t have been afraid to give him a low dose regimen after oral ivermectin, as long as there is a reasonable time lapse after administration, but never concurrently with, immediately after, or in high doses.

I think you misunderstood. There’s only a very few drugs, where milk thistle is thought to decrease the efficacy, most of the drug interactions and most of the concerns are that milk thistle actually increase the efficacy of ( has the effect of increasing dosage) and slowing elimination times. It becomes even more of a concern with dogs might be dose sensitive, as those with the MDR-1 genetic defect.

Weezer BTW, I know I probably seem over reactive and emotional some times, LOL. But I assure you that I am all male. 🙂

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[losul]

Hi Patty, Thank you for the info, very helpful. and also good to know about the liver values.

Looking back at records and thinking clearer now, you could be right, I think there could be a window of chance he could have been infected prior to adoption. I have records from the shelter where I adopted, they are pretty sketchy, but I believe he was there twice and I think briefly at another shelter, which I have no records for. The records from them that I have go back to Dec., 2011, but on 8/24/2012, they show exam, heartworm negative, pyrental, mchip. 8/31/2012 HWP given. This was the only time on the shelters records where HWP was given. There was a prior HW test done on 12/09/2011, but no mention of HWP between then and 8/24/12. Seems kind of strange now that the first HWP given to him at the shelter was suddenly 5 days before we adopted. We adopted on 9/5/1012. The adoption came with a complimentary exam and fecal from the shelter’s attending veterinarian which we used on 9/12. They sold us numerous things including 12 doses of heartguard +. I didn’t like the vet, very absent-minded to put it lightly, I had to keep reminding her we still needed the fecal, and she even seemed afraid to touch Turbo, barely did. I’m pretty sure I finished 2012 with 2 more (2/3) doses. I think after 2012 season was done was when i refrigerated it. I was giving him 2/3 of the chew and then putting the leftover 1/3 in a baggie, and using with an additional 1/3 the next time, that remaining 2/3 was used for the next dose, etc.

About this same time last year he had a HW check with his rabies vaccination, before we later resumed with HWP. I didn’t even know until recently, that if giving seasonally, it should be started 1 month before the season starts. I was under the impression until recently, that the weather had to stay above 57 degress for like 10 consequtitive days, and then I thought there was a 30 day window of time after that. And I remembered with past dogs, we’d get a 6 dose supply and it would last the season.

I’ll likely never know 100%, but for me, there’s just too much I did wrong. At the very least, i should have been throwing away the leftover 1/3’s, reading the package thoroughly, and I should have gotten myself better informed. I’m pretty sure this experience wouldn’t ever happen in most cases, given a more proper protocol than what I did.

Yes i think too Xrays first, and then I’ll take it from there whether to get ultrasound also, and hopefully help determine a more exact course of action. I might have to wait for awhile for results on that. They have a pro radiologist come in to read them, but generally only comes in once a month, sometimes more often. I could get a quicker result, but with additional cost. The timing of this going on with other circumstances currently at hand, unfortunately, I’m going to have to at least be mindful of the ongoing/upcoming expenses.

THNX again Patty.

Shawna:
I knew you fostered BT’s, but I had no idea that you had a mix of the same sort as Turbo! I would luv to see pics of your little “turd”. Getting pics on my computer and then figuring out what to do with them from there, has long been on my “to do” list. I’m so technology deficient, I’m such a procrastinator, and I’ve so many things backed already up on that list, but I intend to get around to it.

That’s so funny the way you describe the “monster”. Turbo is the quirkiest dog I’ve ever met. He very oftentimes tries to communicate things, and many times still, I’m left scratching my head as to exactly what it is.. And sometimes his manners are such that I wonder if he wasn’t one that was taken too quickly from his Mama and siblings, before learning proper manners, and the consequences of not using good manners. I can see where he has been probably been misunderstood for much of his prior life. The first couple days we had him, i was second guessing myself some, and we nearly didn’t even take him to start with. But within a few days, I knew he was right for us. I could go on and on, but I absolutely must get busy this weekend, and the days following, doing things that are already so backed up.

Thnx again Shawna.

Turbo has noticeably been drinking more water and urinating more, this past week. I always thought he never drank enough, and I’ve always added some water to his kibble portions. I don’t think I’d ever seen him pee for more than 10 or 15 seconds at a time at the most, but the other day I think he must have peed for 45 seconds straight, and that was midday. I guess the advantage multi could cause that. Still no more trembling episodes and still haven’t a clue about what happened with that. might be a few days before I can write again.

[losul]

Hi Dori, I’m doing a little better, thnx, and Turbo’s O.K.

My agony peaked when the hard realization came that it was my fault, I already pretty much knew it, but I think it helped to finally get it out. It’s been a little more uphill now.

The fleas, i don’t know what to say. You’re situation with the fleas/insects in the area, and having several dogs is different than mine. Shawna and the others could suggest some alternatives vs. using chemicals, if you can or want to go that route. I don’t really know what I would do for sure in your situation.

I don’t use anything on turbo at all, haven’t had any problem with them here. I didn’t intend to use anything on him at all, but he’s already got insecticide on, or in him, now from the advantage, and I hate it that fact. I can’t really see keeping him on this very long because of that. I always figured if fleas become a problem here, I would only deal with them then, but not before. I know we have/had chiggers in the yard, several years ago, I had a bout with them, itching badly for several weeks. Never had a problem though on Turbo knock on wood. We have alot of ticks here, but again i don’t use anything on Turbo except some body checks, and I wasn’t always diligent about it. I only found I think 2 crawling ticks on Turbo this past season, until that last embedded one him that somehow survived through several bouts with hard frosts and cold weather, and I didn’t find until after it had been feeding for several days. I found more ticks than that on myself, seriously. Maybe some of them were crawling off Turbo and on to me. I hate it that he got worms, and now I hate that i have to give him all these harsh chemicals to try to make them go away. I think Turbo is young and healthy enough to come through it, but I still worry about damages and longer term consequences.

X-rays are set up for next week, and I agree, they will definitely be worth having done.

Hang in there with Katie, i think your determination will get it all figured out!

[losul]

Update; There is no noticeable greasiness or anything remaining on Turbo’s fur. can’t tell it was there.

Having some difficulty taking out on leash. yesterday the ice was thawing and I didn’t get more than a few steps in the yard, one foot went one way the other the other way. Muddy mess. Turbo amused I think.

Turbo is normally calm in the house, but when i get the collar and/or leash he gets way overexited. Today especially. Another good reason to get X-rays to try to help determine his current exercise restriction neccesity.

Th vet called me this evening, I told him about what Merial had told Dori. We agreed X-rays could be helpful, will call and set up tommorrow.

I told him that I had already received a rabies vaccination reminder in the mail from them. He reiterated not to worry, they have several dogs that they refuse to vaccinate even when the owner wants it done.

That’s it for now.

[losul]

Just some info bits i’m picking up here and there;

Pharmacokinetics of Milbemycin Oxime
After oral administration to dogs milbemycin oxime is quickly and almost completely absorbed. Peak plasma concentration is reached 2 to 4 hours later, and subsequently declines with a half-life of 1-3 days. Bioavailability is about 80%.

In rats, metabolism seems to be complete, since unchanged milbemycin oxime was not found in urine or feces. High concentrations of milbemycin oxime are found in the liver and in body fat.

As a general rule, due to a different pharmacokinetic behavior the anthelmintic effect is longer for milbemycin oxime than for ivermectin, although this strongly depends on the delivery form and the administered dose.

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2673&Itemid=3005
—————
WARNING: Dogs of some breeds are sensitive to milbemycin oxime, other macrocyclic lactones or other drugs (e.g. emodepside) that can cross the blood-brain barrier. They can suffer more or less serious adverse effects if treated at dose rates higher than the recommended ones. Consequently dosing must be as accurate as possible. This is the case for Collies and related breeds, which have a mutation in the MDR-1 gene that affects the blood-brain barrier and makes it more permeable to such compounds than in dogs without this mutation. Besides Collies, other dog breeds have shown similar problems, although the MDR-1 mutation has not been confirmed in all of them. The breeds more affected by this mutation are (% frequency): Collie (70%), Long-haired Whippet (65%), Australian Shepherd (50%, also mini), McNab (30%), Silken Windhound (30%), English Shepherd (15%), Shetland Sheepdog (15%), English Shepherd (15%), German Shepherd (10%), Herding Breed Cross (10%). Other less affected breeds are: Old English Sheepdog, Border Collie, Berger Blanc Suisse, Bobtail, Wäller. The only way to be sure that a dog is affected or not by the MDR-1 gene defect is to test for it. As more dogs are tested it is likely that the mutation is discovered in other breeds, or that the frequencies change. Besides Collies, other dog breeds have shown similar problems, although the MDR-1 mutation has not been confirmed in all of them. The breeds more affected by this mutation are (% frequency): Collie (70%), Long-haired Whippet (65%), Australian Shepherd (50%, also mini), McNab (30%), Silken Windhound (30%), English Shepherd (15%), Shetland Sheepdog (15%), English Shepherd (15%), German Shepherd (10%), Herding Breed Cross (10%). Other less affected breeds are: Old English Sheepdog, Border Collie, Berger Blanc Suisse, Bobtail, Wäller. The only way to be sure that a dog is affected or not by the MDR-1 gene defect is to test for it. As more dogs are tested it is likely that the mutation is discovered in other breeds, or that the frequencies change.

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2673&Itemid=3005

——————–
This is only referring to humans, and they don’t mention anthlemintics here, most people don’t use dewormers though.

“Inform the doctor if you are also on anxiolytics, antipsychotics, anticoagulants, anticancer drugs, statins, and seizure prevention drugs, as most of these are worked upon by some major hepatic enzymes and thus, milk thistle might disrupt their course of action.”
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/milk-thistle-dosage.html

——————
A bit on moxidectin

Pharmacokinetics of Moxidectin
After absorption into blood moxidectin is well distributed throughout the whole body including target organs such as the gastric and gut mucosae. The highest concentrations are found in body fat that acts as a depot from where it is progressively released to blood. Moxidectin is more lipophilic than ivermectin and consequently it is stronger deposited in body fat, which results in a higher residual effect and a longer protection against several parasites than ivermectin (by comparable delivery form and administered dose).

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2669&Itemid=3008

[losul]

Hello again Dori.

I wouldn’t EVER want to discourage milk thistle use in totality. I really do believe in it’s potent powers to protect and even help heal the liver. But it’s also because of these potent powers I think awareness/caution is warranted, and especially in regards to possible interactions with other drugs/botanicals, and under certain other circumstances.

I think the last time I looked into this, was well over a year ago. The bookmarks I had on it died with my last computer. It’s hard to get detailed and reliable info from anywhere but the manufacturers, as to actual expected half lives, exactly how the drugs are metabolized, etc. and am having difficulty getting that reliable info again. It’s also hard to get reliable studies on various herbs and supplements,

Going by other resources I think it can be established that ivermectin is primarily metabolized by CYP3A4 in the liver, and as far as I’m concerned, for me, there is enough evidence that milk thistle does inhibit CYP3A4, even though there are few studies as to exactly what extent, dosage rates, potency hard to be determined etc. on milk thistle or almost other botanicals/herb. Most sites I’ve seen, classify milk thistle as a CYP3A4 inhibitor of undefined potency, which would be usually be the case in unregulated and essentially non-standardized supplements. That study referenced in the link i posted the other day, implies relatively high inhibiting potency for milk thistle.

http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/mthistle.html

Not sure exactly how milbemycin, moxidectin, is metabolized, but I would have to assume it’s much the same way as ivermectin, as they are all in the same class of drugs. Apparently ivermectin has a longer longer half life in dogs than i recalled, and milbemycin a little longer than ivermectin. But these, when given in oral dosages, are at least predictable as to their peak plasma concentrations, especially when given without a meal, it’s within hours. Because of the slowed release method of topical moxidectin, peak concentration times for that cannot reliably be determined, I’ve read anywhere between 8 to 21 days after dosage. I would have liked to have incorporated milk thistle into Turbo’s regimen at some point, but as of now, I don’t see how i can confidently do that using moxidectin, and what i don’t know yet about moxidectin. Because all these HWP’s are in the same class of drugs, for now I have to assume they are metablized much in the same way as ivermectin.

If a medication has an expected half life of 24 hours, it doesn’t mean the medication will be cleared in 48 hours. It means that every 24 hours the remaining plasma concentration should be expected to be divided by 2.

I suspect that most advice for milk thistle is for very low dosage, only once a day, and after a reasonably safe time period, at least a day or two after HWP administration? Given in that way, I wouldn’t think there would be significant alterations in elimination time or efficacy, However, I wouldn’t listen to any advice that says to give it before, concurrently with, or immediately after any HWP. Nor any loading up on dosage of it. Additional precautions should be dogs with the defective/suspected defective MDR1 gene, which are already much more susceptible to these drugs crossing the blood/brain barrier, dogs on certain other drugs, or are being given high doses of ivermectin, or the others.

“Dogs with defects in the P-glycoprotein gene (MDR1) can be severely poisoned by ivermectin.”
“Since drugs that inhibit CYP3A4 enzymes often also inhibit P-glycoprotein transport, the risk of increased absorption past the blood-brain barrier exists when ivermectin is administered along with other CYP3A4 inhibitors. These drugs include statins, HIV protease inhibitors, many calcium channel blockers, and glucocorticoids such as dexamethasone, lidocaine, and the benzodiazepines.[21]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin

Note: I think ivermectin and other like drugs given in the low dosages as given normally for heartworm protection, are usually considered safe for dogs with the defective MDR1 gene, unless other factors come into play.

The only time I would ever consider loading up on milk thistle for a dog is if poisonous mushroom ingestion is strongly suspected or in acute aflatoxin poisoning. In which case, high dosages could save the dogs liver and it’s life.

[losul]

Yeah, I guess he should. But the blood testing is what I picked out with his help before we even had any diagnosis of anything. I was looking for something causing his trembling. So I had the outside lab work, and the tickborne illness and heartworm check. After the HW came back positive, he never suggested doing any different outside lab bloodwork, and it remained the same as it was.

edit: That stuff is alot more liquid than i thought it would be, and the wet spot has spread farther than i thought it would, maybe 4 or 5 inches in diameter It’s still slightly damp., although I saw a little “dust” around the circumference. I guess it should completely dry soon. No apparent irritations or anything. Still really wish they’d have left the insecticide out of it.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 1 month ago by losul.

[losul]

Dori, I dwell too much looking back lately on a large number of things. thnx for the inspiration to look forward.

[losul]

Thanks again for your input Aimee. It’s pretty much the way I reasoned it, have trouble putting into words. According to Dr Garner, and I don’t know how good his info is, he says is based on his experiences alone, most of the HWP’s will not normally kill even mid to late maturity L4’s. He thinks Moxidectrin fills the gap more than any other, even reaching into young L5’s.

Do you offhand see there is any other bloodwork I should have for Turbo?

[losul]

Sheez Dori, Im so sorry life has been so full of trials and tribulations for you. You must be tough as nails for what you have gone through yet i know you have have somehow remained a most beautiful caring person. Thank you.

[Author]

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