[losul]

Hi Deb and Jim. So sorry to hear about your dog. I don’t know much about SBS in dogs, but I found this article, hoping it might help. Dr Tudor seems to have have personal experience with SBS patients.

http://hearthstone.businesscatalyst.com/blog/which-dogs-have-short-bowel-syndrome

he might be able to help with a customized medical diet?

http://hearthstone.businesscatalyst.com/dog-food-recipes-and-supplements-store.html

http://hearthstone.businesscatalyst.com/canine-medical-diets.html

best wishes too your family.

[losul]

I agree with DogFoodie. When the criminal actions of a very bad person, harm good, innocent, people, this “report abuse” feature is ESSENTIAL to quickly notify, so the swiftest efforts can be taken to record, identify, remove, and stop them.

Some may have not seen this type of menacing, cowardly, criminal troll activity, plenty of others have, I know I have, it’s against people other than myself, and often occurring in the very early morning hours.

it’s not completely about arguments, disagreements, personal grudges, name calling, profanity, spam or such, that’s bad enough, but please use good judgement for reporting those things appropriately. It goes further than that, is without a doubt criminal activity. If/when anyone does see such on ANYONE, I urge ANYONE to never hesitate to use the “report abuse” button.

I too applaud Dr Mike in his efforts to keep DFA a quality, safe place to share. Thanks Mike.

[losul]

Chloe, I agree mostly with ed p. I think it’s really good advice. It’s hard to calculate an all homemade diet for pups for all their needs. I feed alot of homemade for my adult for several years, but I still couldn’t feel confident or comfortable doing it for a pup, at least not without going back to the books and even then probably not for 100% of the diet. It doesn’t have to be kibble necessarily, but commercial balanced quality kibble and/or canned and/or commercial raw. You can always start to add a small amount of homemade to his diet, only keep small enough that it doesn’t throw off the balance. I’m not familiar with some of the meats you have either.

Is he a large breed? If so, proper balance is even more so important.

[losul]

Yeah right James. To all those with the GENUINE words that I hadn’t yet gotten back to, C4C, Glenna, BobbyDog, InkedMarie, anyone else, thank you for all the kindness and support. Turbo’s awesome, and I’m doing fine!

I hadn’t really planned on ever even announcing it here, but O.K. A year ago yesterday Turbo tested HW negative. Which means he would have already been HW free for at least 5 to 6 months prior too that I believe, because it takes that long for antigens to disappear from the blood after the worms are gone. The heartworms are long gone. He never had HW disease, he had a HW infection and remained healthy and asymptomatic throughout except for some minor coughing for 2 days, I think that was late June 2014, only about 4 months after starting advantage multi for treatment. The vet attributed this to worm dieoff. When the worms die, they aren’t digested in the stomach, – they decay, break up, and have to be absorbed by the lungs.

At the end of this month, he’ll go for his yearly physical, bloodwork, etc. again. Again my deep gratitude all those that supported and helped us!!

[losul]

I’m glad you calculated it out and caught that! The chief author of that article, Dr Donal McKeown seems to be quite well qualified. He would be fairly old now, but If he is still living and I can find an EM address, I’ll write and ask him to clarify some of those statements in the article.

http://www.alumni.uoguelph.ca/stay/stay_profile_mckeown.shtml

[losul]

Hi C4C. I didn’t try too calculate it out until you said something, but shewww yes, it appears to amount to that much by my calculation, and seems WAY too much fat to add to a diet that would already have fat in it. hmmm. I wouldn’t ever advise adding that much fat in the diet!!

[losul]

Interesting theory on the palatibilty enhancers, Dr Carol.

I don’t think this is the one that Aimee referenced, but here is a survey/study that could give insight.

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/boze412010.pdf

At least 50% of my dogs diet is homemade raw, with limited (35%) kibble, but I have had no experience with coprophagia so couldn’t help there.

I found in the the following article in Can Vet, that seems to be relative to what you have asked.

“The dog should be fed a consistent, good quality
diet, high in fat and protein and low in carbohydrate,
with no treats or scraps. Diets high in carbohydrate
tend to enhance the drive to eat stool. The dry food
component of the diet should be reduced and replaced
with a high protein food. Although dry food is generally
a good diet, it has been shown clinically that the
above diet change will often lessen the drive to eat
stool. The addition of vegetable oil (increased slowly
over 7 days, to 15 mL/4.5 kg of body weight/day) is
also helpful. Sufficient food should be given twice
daily, on a regular schedule. Adding the fat and feeding
twice a day helps suppress the appetite for a longer
period, reducing this particular stimulus for stool
eating. Often, a diet change, maintained for 4-8 weeks,
may be all that is required to stop the behavior, in conjunction
with the decreasing strength of the drive as
the animal ages.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1680886/pdf/canvetj00575-0079.pdf

[losul]

Hello Dogfoodie!

I’m still O.K. 🙂 It’s not that i wouldn’t have like to be able to participate more. Please let it suffice to say, I’ve become largely inactive out of personal necessity, and that I have this flaw where I gett overly sensitive about things and dont seem to handle stress very well. Wish I could explain better, but I hope you can kinda understand.

Thank you for the kind sentiment.

I’m Wishing only the very best things into the future for you in to the future ( and the same for all the other fine, folks on DFA)!!!

[losul]

Hello again Glenna

That’s such wonderful news, I’m so happy now for you and your crew!!! My heart and thoughts were much with you over the holidays, and I was feeling very compelled too write you again having to ask very soon, if no hearing anything. So thank you VERY much for letting me know!

Best wishes and may you and all the rest of your family also continue to have a blessed year!

[losul]

Hi again. Sorry for the tardy reply, all.

I’ve some preference for feeding a dog a majority of ruminant meats overall with a lesser amount of poultry overall in my dogs diet, provided the the beef (or other ruminant) is coming from a good, properly raised and fed source. I think the overall fats balance out better that way, and without using much vegetable fats. And as long as I can afford it!!

I wouldn’t necessarily say that beef heart is better, nothing against poultry
hearts, much depends on the source, and for just some supplemental or small batch
use, chicken hearts are handier to use than beef hearts!

I had kind of a bad experience the first time I bought beef hearts a few years ago.(from a different, conventionally raised source, feedlot) I thought never again! They were oversized and completely encased in a way overly tough and thick membrane and excessive suet.. the inside was as bad, and not at all cleaned-gristle, connective tissue,vessels, excessive suetetc., and frankly, they looked old, grayish, and tough. It took alot of effort to clean them enough to suit me, way too much effort, and ended up with alot of waste. It wasn’t worth it, and was a good while before I ever tried beef hearts again. In hindsight some of that gristle
and connective tissue, etc. , wouldn’t have hurt to include anyway!

Where I’ve been getting them the last few times, the outside only has a partial and thin membrane and little suet fat, are very fresh, and the butcher near completely cleans the insides for me, I have not much left to do except cut them up! And I get them for only $1.49/lb cleaned weight! I get good clean liver and kidneys 1.29/lb the same place. I guess not many people around here want to eat heart or organ meats! But the regular and lean cuts of beef are every bit as expensive as anywhere else! So when I make a beef batch I’ve been using the hearts for up to 1/2 of the total muscle meat amount. It equals a good savings vs using all lean human prefered cuts for all the muscle meat. In making a full balanced recipe, I can’t count the heart as organ meat, I still add the small amounts of liver and kidney, and I won’t press the heart amount any beyond 1/2 of the muscle meat count. They say too much heart can cause loose stools, never had that problem or with any any food, but the extra heart I’m using helps to keep some beef in the diet at more an affordable price for me! If one were to use all heart for the muscle meat though, there would very
likely be some deficit somewhere in the nutrition to look for and abundances of others, and I wouldn’t ever advise using overly excessive amounts. Also dogs handle cholesterol differently than humans, but heart, liver and some other organs do contain a disproportionately large amount of cholesterol, something to keep in mind. Don’t over do it!.

Faith, so your dog is about 60lbs. BTW, I believe my dog is 1/2 boston terrier and
1/2 bull terrier of some sort, probably staffy or pit, I’ve got a compact model though,
only about 40 lbs. That’s great that your feller found a loving home with you! I
would assume that his regular diet is around 1150 calories give or take? For your
purposes and for now as supplemental only, yeah I would limit the chicken hearts to
NO more than about 3 or 4 ounces. at least if and until until you are more prepared too see to it that the diet retains balance with your additions. Here, raw Chicken hearts show more calories and fat than the beef hearts, raw. (you might have to enter the serving size) but 100 grams chick hearts (about 3.5 ounces) has about 150 calories. add to that maybe a teaspoon of fish oil a day, an egg a couple times a week, and youre already pushing nearly 20% of unbalanced supplemental calories in his diet, and that then isn’t allowing for any unbalanced treats!

The more things you would add if you do so, or if you go with homemade meals, the more attention you are going to need pay to keeping nutritional balance. And you should really
balance out the extra phosphorus you are adding as it is, with calcium supplement.

If using finely ground eggshell, add 1/2 teaspoon to 2/3 t for each 1 lb of meat, organs, egg etc used. Calcium is very important in a dog’s diet, overall calcium in the diet should at least equal the amount of phosphorus, but also never going more than 2X the amount of phosphorus. a ratio of between 1:1 to 2:1. Most commercial diets I think fall between a ratio of 1.2:1 and 1.6:1, so there would likely be enough buffer already there in your commercial diet to cover your extra phosporus additions, but if me, I would still add at least a bit of calcium anyway.

raw chicken hearts

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/664/2

raw beef hearts

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3464/2

I hear ya on financial bias. dogaware.com is a great site with lots of useful info, some is a little outdated, as Mary Strauss is not so active anymore, but she has nothing to sell as far as I know. and has generously accumulated a ton of good info/articles there.

I prefer a pump bottle for fish oil, so I use Iceland Pure sardine/anchovy, I keep it in the fridge and get a fresh bottle every 3 months. This brand already has some mixed tocopherols in it (vit E), but I still add some additional E in my dog’s diet.

I use some veggies, fruits, and even some select grains, but never in abundance. I
don’t know if you’ve ever heard the old idiom “as fit as a butcher’s dog” I don’t
think the typical old time butcher fed his dog an abundance of starchy plant
material!!! I also still use 25% commercial kibble, haven’t ever been able to get away from it completely for various reasons.

Lastly, I might not be around here to write much anymore, but as you can see from the replies to your thread(and other threads) there are so many awesomely helpful people, good people, on site to help with questions you have, or even just support!! And even if they don’t have answers right away, they have also proven to be excellent researchers!!!

G’night everyone!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Hi Faith. Count me in as another raw heart proponent, I too think it’s a great idea! Raw beef heart is a major staple in my dogs diet. I get from a rural meat market that slaughters and butchers their own locally raised, state inspected beef. It’s not 100% grass fed beef, but pastured on grass and supplemented, especially in the winter, with alfalfa, clover, lespedeza hays and minimal grain. But it’s NOT the typical mass produced feed lot beef that comes from most supermarkets. Clean and lean it only costs me $1.49/lb.

Feed heart and you wouldn’t have any need to supplement with CoQ10! Because in addition to the great source of taurine, heart is also one the very best natural sources of CoQ10! Like the taurine, if you cook it, you will also destroy some of the CoQ10. Would also lose much of most the B vitamins by cooking.

If your dog eats say 1000 calories a day, and you are feeding an otherwise balanced diet, you should be able to substitute about 130 of those calories daily with 4 ounces beef heart daily, and not worry much about throwing the entire diet out of balance without other supplementation. It would help to add some calcium though even with that little bit of addition, as heart is also very high in phosphorous. 4 ounces beef heart has about 250 mg phosphorous, and only very minimal calcium.

I also would reccomend some omega 3 fish oils in the diet, not sure why it would need be krill oil though, unless it’s for the high concentration of astaxanthin?

[losul]

Hi Red. I do think it’s important to use caution with these things. Even if a vet were to give instructions to give antacids/inhibitors to my dog (or even a Doctor to me) on any kind of regular basis, I would be asking questions and investigating, is it acid reflux? what is causing it, how do I get to he root of the problem, and not just treat symptoms, what could/would be the consequences, could it actually be caused by low stomach acid, etc..
———–
Hi Sue, I’m sorry couldn’t respond sooner, my time is limited lately, and having internet troubles on top of that.. I don’t find much about lymphocytic gastritis in dogs, or at least searching those 2 particular words alone. In humans, “Lymphocytic gastritis is a rare gastritis primarily diagnosed by the surgical pathologist. There is a peculiar infiltration of benign lymphocytes into the glands and surface mucosa. It may be associated with celiac disease and Helicobacter infection of the stomach. There are case reports of clearing of the disease by treatment for Helicobacter infection in the stomach.”

http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/stomach_lymphocytic_gastritis.htm

In dogs, most of the hits I came up as canine lymphocytic-plasmacytic gastroenteritis and is still of unknown causes(idiopathic). “Canine lymphocytic-plasmacytic gastroenteritis(LP) is one disease in a group of idiopathic, chronic intestinal diseases collectively termed inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), and is considered to be the most common cause of chronic vomiting and diarrhea in dogs. LP gastroenteritis is characterized by a diffuse infiltration of lymnphocytes and plasma cells into the lamina propria of the stomach and/or the small intestine resulting in diffuse mucosal inflammation. Lymphocytic-plasmacytic is the most prevalent form of IBD.”

https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2007/Fall/clpg.html

Kind of a side note, and really just a curiosity, I found this study to be of interest, specially the apparent surprising resolution of the disease state, after all the numerous testing and therapies failed, and when the client was finally discouraged by no improvements, stopped all of it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082873/

The “fundic region” would be the upper main portion of the stomach and should generally be much less acidic, especially at the beginninh process of digestion than the the lower portions. I think that would likely be why Patch’s diagnosis comments read that Helicobacter was usually more prominent in the fundic (less acidic) region.

“•The fundus, which is the main upper portion of the stomach. Fundus means
“enlargement” and refers to the rounded enlarged area at the top of the stomach.
Food gets ground, mixed, and held in the fundus. It is in the fundus that enzymatic
digestion takes place, assuming there are live enzymes present with your meals (or
if you are using digestive enzyme supplements). Although stomach acid will be
released into the fundus, IT IS ONLY AT ABOUT 30% CONCENTRATION and will not affect
enzymatic digestion. After about 40-60 minutes in the fundus, the chyme will move
on into the body of the stomach.”

“•The body, which is the large middle section of the stomach. It is a primary area
of digestion, and it is here that hydrochloric acid and pepsin begin to work full
bore, and at levels sufficient to stop most enzymatic digestion.

•The antrum, which is the last part of the stomach before the pylorus, the gate
which prevents food from entering the intestine before its time. Actually, the
major portion of digestion takes place in the antrum as food is held a long time
and parceled out to the duodenum in a very slow, methodical manner. Incidentally,
antrum means cave and pylorus means gatekeeper.”

Your Stomach, Part 1

I think there’s some REALLY good articles/summaries on that site, especially
pertaining to human digestive/gastric systems, but most of it would be relevant to dogs
also. He does deal with alternatives/naturapathic/holistic, and does also sell
supplements, I don’t necessarily agree with all he says, but I think it’s one of
the most comprehensive, complete, and easiest to understand articles/primers on
digestion I’ve seen.here is the article “your stomach, part 3” , which may most
pertain, especially to the significant importance of acid in digestion/health, but
be sure to read all parts 1,2,3. and the overview on digestion also. In fact most of the whole digestion series is a good read.

Your Stomach, Part 3

http://jonbarron.org/article/overview-digestive-system#.Va1zwGd0w5s

Digestive System

I’m not sure where the “water” would be coming from after Patch ate his raw. Not
excessive saliva? Did you add water to the raw food? Adding water would dilute his
acid production. I’m not sure if you are saying that he threw up the raw or just
water? The enzymes i think should be even more important/purposeful on cooked
foods more so than raw. What kind of enzymes are they? Just go very slow on them at first. I would think Patch’s bio-fauna is much out of whack, and needs to be re-established with good bacteria. He may have mineral/vitamin deficiencies also. I was a little surprised that tha naturpath wanted to immediately switch Patch to raw. I would be a little hesitant to go full force raw right away, knowing Patch’s condition, which is why it’s important to be upfront with the
naturopath as much as possible. Has the naturpath seen Patch, or was it just a
consult? Is it Lew Olson?

If it were me, I would take just baby steps, but I’d give the Naturpath’s advice a
fair shot, and keep her/him informed. Not make too many changes all at once, or
expect too much all at once. Build up very slowly on everything, the probiotics,
the enzymes, the cooked or raw foods.Has Patch been weaned off antacids since the
Helicobacter treatment and fairly stable most of the time with what he’s eating
now? Can you try to introduce just a snack size meal of cooked along with
appropriate small portion enzymes or maybe later raw in between those regular
meals, and just very gradually increasing while decreasing the regular? I’m not
familiar with Roo meat, how easy to digest, how much fat, saurated fats, etc. I
think in the U.S. it’s thought that lean chicken is one of the easiest proteins to
digest, along with well cooked white rice. Vets often advise this temporarily for
gastric distress (provided they don’t have a sensitivity to chicken) and it works
for many dogs. I’ve heard you say that Patch and grounded rice don’t get along? I
don’t understand what you mmean by grounded. In the U.S. white rice is milled and
has the husk, bran and germ removed, leaving virtually only the starchy interior,
it’s usually then “enriched” with some vitamins/minerals. Should be fairly easy to
digest by most dogs. Eventually though I would want to get him off all that starch,
and get him on a more balanced diet. Are you giving him any vitamins/minerals at
all?

On another note, there are a couple of U.S. vets now using fecal matter transplants
for dogs, from only verified healthy donor dogs of course. For humans, it’s
catching on a bit more now, even in a few hospitals, with very promising results from persistent or recurrent IBD, SIBO, colitis, that is usually caused by
persistent, pathogenic, and resistant overgrowths/infections.

Sue, Maybe Patch can’t be completely cured, but I believe with the determination
you’ve shown and continue to show, he WILL get better. There’s alot of people
rooting for you and Patch, I know that I’m one of those!

P.S. I might not be able to write back for a while again.

———————
Hi weezerweeks, y/w.

I understand your concerns with Bailey. Best wishes for his best health!

Let us know how the vet visit goes.

[losul]

Weezerweeks, please use much caution about giving a dog human antacids/PPI’s/ acid , especially for any prolonged length of time, beyond occasional usage, without carefully regulated dosage, without guidance from a good vet, and without knowing the actual cause of acid reflux symptoms, if that’s even what it is (acid reflux). As said above, hypochlorhydria can cause the exact same symptoms. I cringe every time I hear of someone self medicating., and it could be creating worse problems, especially in the longer term, if the cause is low stomach acid, or even if the problem does not originate from excessive acid production.. Even, if the underlying cause were to be excessive acid production, if you cut a pill that was designed for a 160lb human in quarters and give to a 10 lb dog, that dosage seems way too much anyway. It’s too easy to intuitively assume these sort of symptoms (reflux or indigestion) stems from excessive stomach acid. It could be excess stomach acid production or refluxing for numerous reasons, but I feel that way too often it may be caused by just the opposite, probably both in dogs as in humans. If antacids are given to a dog in wrong dosage or if the dog really suffers from low stomach acid and antacids are given, it could lead to achlorydria (no stomach acid)…

I spent a great deal of time studying on this over the last year and a half or so, the “acid” reflux, GERD, hypochlorydria, achloridia, hyperchlorydria, digestion problems, etc. and how it relates to overall health/disease. It’s a complicated issue, and I’m absolutely no medical pro at all, but I think I’ve learned some good info on the subject. Good health really begins in the first part of digestion, the stomach, IMO. Most of the info available pertains to humans, but should apply to dogs as well. I’ve been wanting to write about this again for awhile now….It’s been high on my to do list… I really sympathize and feel with the folks and their dogs, the helplessness feeling and distressed feelings such as on forum threads like “dog gulping and swallowing”, and of course with Sue and her dog Patch, and anyone else’s also.

Sue, I think you’re finally probably on the right track now with your thinking, and on the right path with consulting with the Naturopath vet, I hope you continue with that. I hope you are also up front with her/him about Patch’s extensive past antacid usage, also the extensive antibiotics usage. H. Pylori thrives in lower stomach acid and will in fact even help create a less acidic atmosphere for itself via it’s large production of urease, which metabolizes in the stomach to ammonia and neutralizes stomach acid. The H pylori can also damage the mucous and the parietal cells in the stomach, which produce the hydrochloric acid and pepsin in the stomach. It does become necessary to use the antacids along with the antibiotic therapy to eradicate the h pylori. I thought this odd at first, but it turns out, I found that H. Pylori does needs hydrochloric acid in it’s metabolism, so to limit stomach acid during eradication makes sense. And of course antacids become necessary to allow time for ulcers or damaged esophagus, etc. to heal. I think you already said that Patch didn’t have ulcers or damage to his esophagus? Actually H. Pylori is very rare in the stomachs of dogs as I understand it, but other helicobacter species are more common and may be a normal inhabitant of a canine stomach.

I don’t believe there are any good tests on a dog to find out about stomach acid production. There’s a good test for humans, the Heidelburg PH capsule test, minimally invasive, although it’s not a mainstream or well known diagnostic tool, (nope most doctors will just prescribe an antacid) and it can also even measure PH in the small and large intestine.. I called them sometime back and asked if there was any in use for dogs, which I already doubted, I was told no, but that she would bring it up at the next company meeting. Humans can do some limited self testing to a certain extent, which I won’t get into, but can’t really do that with dogs, as they can’t tell exactly what they are feeling at the moment.

I’ve got whole lots of links bookmarked on this subject, when I can get to them and when I get time. For now, there’s a pretty good summary of digestion/disease issues just from the Heidelberg Medical site. I would read ALL the “learn more” topics (on the right side), including hypochlorhydria, allergies, diabetes, gastritis, asthma, dumping syndrome, hyperchlorydria, achlorydria, the medications, PPI’s, H2’s GERD, antibiotics, pyloric insufficiency, etc. Please read them all.

http://phcapsule.com/digestion/gerd-reflux/

[losul]

Thnx, MD.

Great idea for the treats!

[losul]

Hi MaggiesDad.

Question about the beef trachea. Sometimes trachea, gullets/ ground necks, also include the adjacent thyroid glands, which can cause problems for dogs if fed often enough, hyperthyroidism, thyrotoxicosis.

Does allprovide see to it that the thyroid glands are not included in the mix? thnx.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01189.x/full

[losul]

Hi D.O.

I remembered someone posted this Dr. Becker article a while back, might be something helpful.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2009/12/23/your-pets-anal-glands.aspx

[losul]

I wish i could go with you Dori, maybe an educating experience regardless of the outcome!

The praise about Hannah is due to both you and Hannah!

[losul]

Hi Dori, you’ve done an amazing job with your dogs! And great to hear about Hannah still doing so well!

Yeah, I doubt AAFCO will ever do anything positive for the the raw dog food industry, after all AAFCO is so largely geared to and even controlled by the major dog food giants. Be nice though if the raw food manufacturers would join together/invest in some sort of alliance in studies, and maybe their own guidelines. Though I find that doubtful also.

The discussion on the review side reminded me. The owner of Allprovide has gone to lengths to say how they their poultry is human quality, they take it home to eat themselves, etc. And that their beef comes from a USDA inspected plant. I would still need to make sure the beef is USDA inspected and passed, not just inspected. So I still have questions. I’m not crazy at all about feedlot beef anyway or other CAFO animal feeding operations, and I don’t use them in making homemade.

Thanks for your willingness to visiting their facilities!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 12 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Hello Aimee
I’m glad my pup raising days (and child raising days) are long past 🙂 or I’d have to study all over again to get enough confidence to homemake even then half of a pup’s food properly. I think it’s very important to start off a pup on good foundation to health early for the proper build of health throughout life. And then to think that someone could be using an exclusive food (most of us regulars here on DFA never would ) through gestation, nursing, puppiehood, and adult hood, one should be even more careful. if I did ever aquire another puppy, not at all likely, but I’d definitely want to see that at least some wholesome rawness was a part of the diet, but I’d also want to make certain it was properly formulated, and well rounded with wholesome ingredients, whether formulated by myself or someone else. Getting the macronutrients right at the VERY least, and not dependent to any large degree on any one formulation.

But I also think many raw maunufacturers face a dilemma, do they add a bunch of vitamins/minerals, many of them perhaps needlessly, and some perhaps harmfully,
in order to be able to put that AAFCO label on them? I think AAFCO guidelines were
designed for and are a must for heavily processed foods, the most so being kibble,
and even much more so when low grade, questionable, and inadequate ingredients are
used. I can’t imagine how nutritionally devoid most kibbles would be without rather
heavily added vitamins/minerals.

But, if you take vitamin E for example. It gets used up with time, processing, and
natural peroxidation/oxidation of fats, especially the sensitive, unstable fats.
What vitamin E added when a kibble is made, needs to be sufficient throughout the
manufacturing process, the time that the kibble is stored, and then throughout the
time someone is feeding the bag. Probably if measured at the time a kibble is fed,
it would be a very small fraction left of the original vitamin E included
originally, but hopefully it would still retain at least some smaller amount. I
think the AAFCO guidelines likely allow for these losses.
Whereas a raw, minimally, but properly processed diet, fed immediately, or that is
frozen in well sealed packages is going to retain most of the original vitamin E.
The food/fats is still going to undergo some peroxidation, albeit at a much, much
slower rate. I believe to much vitamin E can be very harmful, just like to much
much of many other added nutrients. Even AAFCO is concerned with overnutrition.
“Maximum levels of intake of some nutrients have been established for the first
time because of concern that overnutrition, rather than undernutrition, is a bigger
problem with many pet foods today.” I’m satisfied that Allprovide has more than
sufficient of vitamin E in that food for MY dog, with the added wheat germ oil.

Another example, I think you know of the importance of vitamin D in regulating
uptake of calcium and some other minerals. Probably you also know the detrimental
effects of to much vitamin D in supplemetation, including possible hypercalcemia.
And we have both seen how many raw foods, both homemade recipes and some
commercially prepared, appear to be “deficient” in vitamin D when going by AAFCO
guidelines.
I found this study interesting, “Some Observations on the Dietary Vitamin D
Requirement of Weanling Pups” and the conclusion; “Dogs fed diets with and without
supplemental cholecalciferol did not differ in growth rate, food consumption or
selected serum or urine values. Likewise,there were no differences between the two
of response to added cholecalcifrol was probably due to adequate levels of calcium
and phosphorus in the base diet and possible synthesis of vitamin D. However, it is
possible that some vitamin D could have been present in one or more of the
ingredients of the basal diet. It has been suggested that dogs may only require
additional vitamin D when there is a mineral deficiency or imbalance in the diet
(11). However, one study reported canine rickets in diets containing 1.2% calcium
and 1% phosphorus (6).It has been reported that carnivores may not possess the
mechanism of vitamin D synthesis in the skin (7). Another study demonstrated that
dogs fed a nonpurified diet without added vitamin D under conditions of total
darkness did not exhibit bone defects (Kealy,unpublished data). Previous reports
did not record the ultraviolet light status of the environment. It is not
understood at this time how the dog acquires sufficient vitamin D for metabolism.
Part of the explanation appears to be related to a very low vitamin D requirement
in the presence of adequate dietary mineral balance.The observation that large
breed dogs raised in indoor-outdoor kennel runs do not require added vitamin D is
important <b>because supplemental vitamin D, calcium and phosphorus are frequently
recommended and used at levels in excess of the nutritional require
ments of the dog, presumably to enhance bone growth and development. The data
reported here suggest that supplementation of nonpurified, commercially available
dog foods with vitamin D may not be necessary.</b>

http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediet-Kealy1991.pdf

Aimee, I know you’ve expounded about the blatant abuse of some other raw manufacturers in applying the AAFCO label of completeness on their foods, and I largely agree with many of your points, especially when it comes to all life stages/puppy, and especially the macronutrients Ca,P. etc.

I never expected you to approve of this one either. But for us, the puppy blend, good quality balanced proteins and well balanced fats, The meat, bone and beef organs in the proper proportions, and it’s other rounded whole food additions, and it’s 95% of the way there for us. I have a few more questions to ask, but as it stands for now, when my food supply runs down some, I intend to buy some Allprovide puppy blend and use at least as a sometimes meal/topper for my adult. It can replace some of the to expensive canned foods we’ve been using for the second meal of the day. I see it as a step up and less money too. The first meal will still always be raw homemade, or another solid commercial brand raw. If I did see a long list of added synthetic vitamins/minerals, for me, I’d likely just pass on this food. I’d still really appreciate someone (Dori?) to take a visit to them and report back.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 12 months ago by losul.

[losul]

That’d really be great Dori, if you could do that! and let everyone know your experience! thnx

[losul]

I understand all your concerns Dori. Hey you live down in Georgia, right? Even if you wouldn’t be too interested in their foods personally, that be awesome if if you could tour their facilities sometime, check it out, and let folks know what you find. I guess their on the North side of Atlanta? Your on the south?

Actually the puppy blend is even more mixed protein than the others, 2 main proteins, whole chicken and beef heart. Beef heart is generally very lean, except for a little suet, the harder flaky storage fat, also found in beef kidneys.

[losul]

Basically I think if they are putting an AAFCO label of nutritional completeness on their foods, i doubt they should be doing so. On the other hand, for me, AAFCO guidelines hold much less relevance for well rounded quality whole, foods, and really become much more relevant the more heavily processed foods. kibbles, etc. I don’t like to many excessive and uneccessary added vitamins/minerals to raw diet.

I’ve not seen guaranteed analysis of their products. The analysis they show is a bit confusing, especially the way they have broken certain items down.

I think I can assume that fat means total fat, carbs mean total carbs, it wasn’t at first plain to me from their analysis. But the total calories still don’t quite reconcile?

Going by what i can here’s the best I come up with on the puppy blend. I hope this comes out looking like a spreadsheet, never has for me before on the review side anyway 🙁

Analysis % %Dry Matter Approximate % calories from?:
——————————————————————————————————-protein 14.02 46.6
fat 7.58 25.2 about 51% ?
carbs 6.57 21.8
water 69.92
ash/other 1.91 6.3
——————————————————————————————————-
100 99.9

Going by those figures, the fat doesn’t look out of line, particularly since the product has added coconut oil and salmon oil, already. I might give consideration feeding the puppy blend (to my adult) on a supplemental basis. I’d be interested in how the veggies, particulary the kale, are processed to make more digestible., and if the mung and adzuki beans are cooked in addition to, or simply just sprouted.

Edit: yeah it didn’t come out looking like a spreadsheet, at all. I’ll have to try doing something about that later.

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by losul.

[losul]

I agree Dori, it would cost alot more to get the best specifications. I wrote the guy a couple times, and he seemed open and honest. they don’t have a nutritionist , and I wouldn’t consider it to be all balanced. They do use typical grocery store type feedlot beef, like IBP, or something, and also typical grocery store type chicken and turkey, they use all the skin with the poultry, something I never do, I remove it all. it’s not grass finished, or free range. I think the beef would could possibly have used antibiotics, maybe hormones? but I was thinking those were outlawed in chicken? turkey? I’m not sure. I don’t think there would be any worries about 3D or 4D beef in it.

I don’t think there’s so many dog foods that do use free range and grass fed without really busting the wallet for so many, and think it could still be much better than almost any kibble or canned foods, could be a decent option for occaisonal use, or to use for toppers, It wouldn’t be what I would feed as a staple to my dog though, and the fat levels do appear too very high, not as bad in the puppy blend though.

[losul]

Allprovide looks like (or at least initially) it could be a good, very economical food option 2 feed on occaison. The proteins are mixed in the varieties. Not a big deal for me though, for some might be. The poultry varieties all use beef organs, which is good really, they are more nutritious than chicken organs, probably why they do that. The beef variety uses chicken bones. And all the varieties appear to be high in fat as in the case with so many commercial raw diets. But alot of the numbers don’t numbers seem 2 jive either, and calories per 100grams? The first thing thats fairly easy 2 pick out is the inverted calcium phosphorus ratio in the turkey variety. I think it’s going to fall short in some of the numbers, but trying to reconcile these numbers gives me such a big headache even trying, i give up. Aimee’s is great with processing the numbers, maybe she would see this and lend a hand to it?

Personally, the only variety that I would be interested tin is the puppy blend, but not for a puppy, for my adult. It has 2 major proteins, chicken and beef heart, and the fat levels are lower, or should be.

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by losul.

[losul]

Aimee, I tried a search on “protein dehydrating” and “protein dehydrating in dogs” all I came up with was an article or two pertaining to humans and high consumption of protein.

It’s interesting though that I found this article, that said this;

“Other potential factors behind polydipsia and polyuria are low protein diets,”

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/urinary/c_multi_polydipsia_polyuria

K-Rae, I couldn’t come up with much info on the ingredients in carnivora.ca from their website, not sure, but I get the feeling from reading on it that they are against any carbs in the food? Regardless, I would be trying a different raw diet, and don’t be afraid to to use a good balanced one that does include some moderate carbs, they might do much better on it. It could be that your dogs are still drinking in excess as part of a learned/ingrained behavior from dry food days. I agree with the others though that this polyuria should be reason for concern, and should be investigated further. Seeking vet care/tests would be best, but you could at least do a phone consultation with a vet that knows raw feeding, and then go from there.

AJ, you CANNOT feed your 12 week old puppy nothing but chicken breast and wings, if that’s what you are saying. He will DEFINITELY have malnutrition disorders if you do so, and I would strongly suggest getting him back on a complete and balanced diet.

[losul]

everyone, thank you, I know my decision not to post results publicly is a hard one to understand. It was very hard for me to make, and not what i wanted or had intended at all. There were alot of considerations most won’t understand. Anyway, do not make any assumptions from my decision, they may very well be the wrong ones. And don’t fret about Turbo. He’s fine.

Glenna, I sent an EM

[losul]

I started this thread almost a year ago as way to receive much needed advice and info, as I was hit with an unexpected bombshell, and needed to learn quickly all that I could. I didn’t even know very much about heartworms at the time. I’m forever grateful to all those who provided loads of info and advice, and all kind words of support, thoughts and best wishes. At the same time I wanted to chronicle everything I learned in a manner as objective as possible, not only for my own useful purposes of reviewing, but also hopefully for others it could possibly help that found themselves in the same predicament. I wanted to weigh everything I could, learn as much as I could, do all I could, so that I could arrive at the best decision I could make. I stand by my own personal decision. This was never a clear cut decision, it was NEVER simply one way is right and one way is wrong. There are way too many VERY important factors to weigh. The issue itself is way too important and serious, and dogs health and lives can be at risk. If my dogs condition warranted the other method, I would most definitely have used it. But I’ll NEVER try to promote a particular method as a blanket statement.

The events of the last several days showed this thread was no longer where I intended it to go. What happened to facts and objectivity? I’d never take sides in there is only one right way, and only one wrong way, there isn’t IMO, there is no one size fits all. I’ve had Turbo’s results since yesterday, again I know I made the right decision for us, no one else. I’ve now had to come to another VERY hard decision. I’ve decided NOT to post them in public.

Glenna, if you could ask Dr Sagman to forward your EM address to mine, and he would be so kind to do so, I am more than willing to discuss with you.

[losul]

Melissa, i did not stay angry with you ever since the HK disagreement. But I feel YOU have held anger. If you would recall I even apologized to you later for being harsh back then, I don’t believe we’ve had any words since.

In this matter, then we should just agree to disagree completely and drop it. I don’t need any more agitation in my life right now, really.

Just one last thing, I don’t know about any state regulations, there are none that I know of. I made it perfectly clear to my vet, that for me, it was concern over needlessly using the harsh drugs, and I made sure that his infection was minor (asymptomatic, no clinical signs, no radiographic signs,) before making my decision. I thought his melarsomine treatment pricing was quite reasonable, but it doesn’t matter. And in Glenna’s situation it apparently doesn’t have too do with money either, as her vet told her the preventative manufacturer would foot the bill. I hope you aren’t implying it as you sure seem to be doing, but don’t assume either that there is only YOUR 2 reasons for choosing slow kill, I completely assure you there are more.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by losul.

[losul]

have limited time now, can’t get into much a discsussion, The 4x HW tickborne was considerable cheaper when included in the complete bloodwork package which is sent to an an outside lab, so rather thanm have them do the 4X inhouse and sending the rest out, I’m waiting day to find out all results tommorrow. The courier picks up today, and results should be ready tommorrow, he probably won’t call me until late. Per the vet, heart and lungs sound great, lungs sound clear. Condition appears excellent. He told me not change anything I was doing, barring any kind of problems and he is quite aware of his to activity’s. have more advantage multi now, but haven’t made an exact decision yet going forward, show know more tommorrow when vet calls with results. Dori, for Turbo, I’m not sure I could ever confidently use ivermectin again for preventative, whether it was all my fault, or whether it is really a resistant strain, I’ll never completely know, otherwise I’d likely be using it going forward, once negative test results. We still have bad mosquitos here. The swamp” land on the adjoining property still has yet too be fixed.

Aimee, I disagree on that. I had all W.E. to sit on this, and tone things down, and I did tone it down, as as much as I can get. Yes, she stated as being unsure about the exact average lifespan, but she stated those other sentences as fact, when in fact, it is FALSE, I would never do such a thing, and I will never try to wrongly influence someone, and especially with a matter important. In fact, I’m not trying to influence anyone period, that should be quite clear. Then her superfluous, unfounded last sentance as a kick in the teeth. Anyway it’s over, I can’t dwell anymore on it, or waste anymore time on it.

I have read a little about the antigen/antibody thing, especially in just the last few days. I meant to ask the vet about, and want too look into further. HJust a couple quick thoughts though, there is a lot of oppostion to making anything easy in the pharmaceutical world, especially with so much money involved. There are even Heartworm scary commercials about. Antigen tests have gotten more sensitive, not less. If it were completely true then how could you ever even tell for sure whether a dog ever were to became infected in the first place? Don’t know, Gotta go for now…..

[losul]

I think its pretty well established that the average natural lifespan of adult HW’s is about 5 or so years. “adult worms that may live for five to seven years in dogs.”- American Heartworm Society. Even devout opponents of using slow kill, usually say that it can take UP TOO 2 Years for the adults to die using ivermectin as a slow kill. UP TO 2 YEARS- I would ask, is is that the average lifespan of 5 to seven years? They can say it doesn’t kill HW’s if they want ( I call it slow killing them), but there IS evidence that it significantly shortens their lifespans, and evidence that they can be gone in much less time than 2 years. Yet above is an unsubstantiated, unreferenced claim that;

“it does nothing to kill the adults. Without Immitricide, the present adult worms will continue to cause damage to the heart and circulatory system until the natural expiration of its life cycle.”

Well here’s some more of my research.t;

Here’s an important study titled, “COMBINED IVERMECTIN AND DOXYCYCLINE TREATMENT has microfilaricidal and ADULTICIDAL activity against Dirofilaria immitis in experimentally infected dogs.” and the conclusion, “RESULTS INDICATE THAT THE COMBINATION OF THESE TWO DRUGS CAUSES WORM DEATH. This could have important implications for control of human and animal filarial infections.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18433753

a third; “Reduction of adult worms was 20.3% for IVM, 8.7% for DOXY, 92.8% for IVM + DOXY + MEL, 100% for MEL, and 78.3% for IVM + DOXY.”
“Preliminary observations suggest that administration of DOXY+IVM for several months prior to (OR WITHOUT) MEL WILL ELIMINATE HW with less potential for severe thromboembolism than MEL alone.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18930598

To try to keep balanced, and not to be takenm lightly, a bit older and a negative study, warning of using ivermectin alone or ivermectin with praziquantal as a SOLE treatment too dogs with with clinical, radiographic or echocardiographic evidence of heartworm disease. Some of the dogs radiographs or electrocardiographs indicated increased evidence of disease during the study, The conclusion of that study- “Thus, monthly administration of IVM to dogs with CLINICAL, RADIOGRAPHIC or ECHOCARDIOGRAPHIC evidence of heartworm disease is ILL ADVISED and SUCH TREATMENT OF EVEN THE ASYMPTOMATIC DOG SHOULD BE DONE ONLY WITH MUCH CAUTION AND FREQUENT MONITORING BY THE VETERINARIAN”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15381305

Immiticide (melarsomine dihydrochloride) has les side effects and mortalities than the elder chemical. There hasn’t been shown immediate liver or kidney damage, but is STILL A VERY POTENT ARSENIC compound, I don’t believe anyone can say for certain what LT effects aor damages it could have. Immiticide “Melarsomine dihydrochloride is an organic arsenical chemotherapeutic agent.” Merial themselves state that immiticide has a low margin of safety. Plus, in their own clinical trials, 5.2% of dogs in stage 1 and stage 2 died following treatment. 18.2% of class 3 dogs died following treatment. In a further smaller trial, 33.33% of class 3 dogs died. Many of the mortalities and side effects a surely reduced much further with the use of powerful steroids. My vet would have given along with each of the series of 3 immiticide injections, 3 injections of dexamethasone, a powerful steroidal drug that can in itself have serious consequences, and tramadol for pain, with a strict confinement total of 60 days and three nights and 3 days hospitalization. That’s his protocol assuming there were no complications. These were hard but researched decisions for me too make, and I’m sure fro anyone else in these shoes. Again my dog is asymptomatic, shows no clinical signs, or pertinent radiographical signs of heartworm disease. He still does or did have a HW infection. I do my best to keep my dog healthy, did everything I could too best make decisions, and I’m not going top feel guilt for not subjecting him to (what I believe is needlessly in Turbo’s case ) to trauma and harsh, damaging, life threatening chemicals. The money for us was no factor. To make it clear, I believe in many cases, melarsomine SHOULD, be used, and in some, I understand why it is used, and also who sometimes it CAN’T be used.

I have hopes, but no expectations one way or the other for Turbo’s upcoming HW test results. The only expectation I have is that his complete exam, his CBC, and if need be, another xray, will continue to indicate good health. I had already made the determination some time ago that I was going to be able to rest in peace, no matter + or – reading, as long as Turbo remains healthy and free of heartworm disease and as ALL the evidence currently shows. I know I made the right choice for us. My vet wanted to wait for a full year for retesting, as he knows the worms need be gone for about 6 months for the antigens to be non detectible. That would mean the worms would have already had to have been gone already around 6 months ago, so about 5 months after starting A.P., not a very long time, especially since the moxidectin takes 3 to 4 applications to build up to full plasma potency.

If Melissa’s intent was was to inflict hurt, disturbance, dismay, guilt, or just to promote antagonism, then I guess I can give her the pleasure of knowing she had much of intended effect, but not guilt. I made an appointment for Turbo tommorrow, (soon to be today) a few weeks ahead of time, and he will get his HW re-test, blood work and exam.

I’m disturbed of the purpose of Melissas statement, and honestly I fail to find anything helpful or useful, in it. Instead, I find unsubstantied and inaccuracies. Unlike her, I extensively researched everything I could, and with the help of many others, to make important educated decisions, some of it documented throughout this thread. I’m sure my my research extended well beyond, and still do. I took this very seriously, still do, I’m never one to just throw damaging drugs and chemicals at anything without doing my own research rather than relying on a clinic vet’s words, my own personal and unsubstantied bias, or simple heresay.

Her first paragraph actually contradicts her second , (Could she actually think the slow kill method entails doing absolutely nothing, no monthly preventative?). That final sentence and her irrational conclusion is the one most superfluous and disturbing. What person or vet in their right mind would ever attempt, condone or allow continuing damage for 5 years? Seem’s as to me sensationalism at it’s best.

Glenna, i will continue trying to present the whole picture, the best I can, without any bias, or judgement. I think you probably already realized that before this post. Slow kill can absolutely has it’s risks, much of it depending on the health, and the degree of infection or disease, but so can the the immiticide, the immiticide particularly if you are not able to adhere too very strict confinement, as you already indicated you could not? It seemed you already had your mind made up on slow kill, but I would believe you still have then more time to still consider the alternative? Have your vet read the studies above, in particular the one about doxycycline w/preventative, it could be very be helpful in whichewver method. Xrays/bloodwork/ can also certainly help on any further determination if not already done.

I should have the HW test results later today. The other bloodwork then send to an outside lab so probably will not have it for a couple more days…

[losul]

Hi HDM! Thnx and very good to hear from you! But I’d like to hear more, i.e. you, your schooling. dogs etc.
I want to entice you to go somewheres my neck of the woods, like the Veterinary College at Columbia MO. 🙂 There’s definitely a need for a great vet around here!

Glenna, thnx, it seems you are top of things. Will update when able!

[losul]

Thank you much BC! I Wish all the best things for you and all your family also!!!

[losul]

Glenna, I want to thank you for responding back also. This is still a learning experience for me. I understand your predicament, I know about the bomb-shelled feeling, but couldn’t imagine that happening on Christmas Eve, and then with 2 dogs i addition…. But it’s good too hear your dogs are asymptomatic for least.

I’m not sure the reason microfilariae were not detected in you dogs- whether the year round HWP was keeping them non-detectible, the infection was caught early and no worms had had reproduced, the worm load low, or whether there were only one sex of worms. I think the year round HWP probably kept them non detectible. When I had Turbo tested last February, he had not had any HWP in any form for several months already, the ivermectin is quick in, quick out. ( didn’t give year round, and my regimen were not good to say the least). He showed pos on 2 different antigen tests and on the microfilarae. The antigen levels showed low.

The disadvantage to the slow kill is that it very unpredictable when worms will die, MUCH less control, although they should die at a much slower rate than in a quick kill where there is large/sudden dieoffs.

Did the vet explain that with A.P. the takes something like 2 to 4 monthly applications before the plasma levels of moxidectin peak and level off? That brings up another question, did the vet prescribe the A.P. to be used at the same levels as would be for your dogs for prevention? For my dog it was the same applied as would be for prevention. My vet really hadn’t much prior experience using A.P. in the slow kill method, and really only some anecdotal words….. I hated to think of Turbo as a guinea pig, but given that there was a possibility of his worms being resistant to ivemectin, I felt I only really had 2 choices, the A.P. slow kill, and the arsenic/steroids/etc. fast kill. I feel i made the right decision for in our situation, and don’t think I would have changed much, even without knowing the upcoming results…

There used to be a fellow Daveshounds ( is that how it’s spelled?)on DFA reviews that rescued a hound that was already known to have HW’s I think. I don’t know the particulars, extnet. He went with a slow kill ivermectin method (more traditional, though still not approved or really advised) method. Didn’t see him about on DFA for a good while, but he came back very briefly many months ago, to report that his dog had then reported back neg for heartworm, and the dog had done very well and in great shape, I’m reasonably think he implied that he had been exercising and working out the dog throughout, but not entirely sure. I tried to reply back too him and ask more, I don’t think he saw it, and haven’t heard anything since. I’ve already been searching alittle for that post, no luck so far. I’m going to look more, when I finish this….., I think it was on the off topic board, and think I can search through my own replies….

I wish I could be of more assurance, I can’t and won’t say that by not restricting activity with a slow kill, that it’s not dangerous and without risk, sorry. I can’t even say what method, slow/fast would be best for YOU and YOUR dogs, I hope you understand….

Do check with the doxycycline. Many vets believe that killing the wolbachia it weakens the worms and also may cause a lesser, immune and inflammatory reaction when the worms die. My vet was going to use it even if we went with the fast kill.

I don’t know if you supplement with fish oil/fish/omega 3’s, could be a good thing in addition for ordinary cardiac health, also for anti-inflammatory qualities.

When you give your dogs A.P., I would definitely separate them for a good while. If one were to ingest orally from the others neck/shoulders, at least while wet, it can be extremely toxic.

I’m hoping to know more soon……

[losul]

I had talked bits and pieces of Turbo’s continued story on on the review side in the interim, but I’m way past due then to place an update here. I’m going to try too update, and reply to Glenna in this post.

I somehow missed BcNut’s and Shawna’s last posts here from way back, really sorry about that. Late now, but BcN, thank your asking, Turbo’s doing great, and Shawna- interesting on the homeopathics, thnx. Also thanks too everyone again for helping me through this whole ordeal

Back in March, we had Turbo’s X-rays reviewed by a professional radiologist, and he agreed that there Turbo appeared to have only a low grade HW infection, the x-rays didn’nt change the opinion that that it was a mild, or asymptomatic grade 1. Vet advised to not have an ultrasound done. With that news and given the fact that he already then already had his first dose of advantage plus, I decided to proceed with with trying the A.P. in a slow kill approach, no immiticide, no steroids, etc. The vet only wanted to use 1 2 week round of doxycycline, I think most vets use 2 rounds or even more in pulsed manner, but I’m always concerned about antibiotic overusage anyway, and agreed with too single round.

It was the vet that pushed to use the A.P. moxidectin for the slow kill. I could never find anyone that tried it before, still haven’t, and so was very skeptical. Plus the fact that I hated combing the HWP with a flea insecticide, an unnecessary toxin. But the vet really pushed for it, and optimistic about it, especially thinking that we could be dealing an ivermectin resistant strain. All the information I could find ONLY advised using ivermectin/doxycycline as a slow kill method, and still hadn’t heard of anyone else using A.P. for it until now— Glenna S.

So went the doses of A.P. plus the single course of doxycycline, with no problems, except completely hating the leftover smell of the flea insecticide for many hours and into the next day. The package insert stated something too the effect that studies showed if a dog was bathed after 90 minutes after administration, it didn’t affect then efficacy of the moxidectin. It’s rapidly absorbed through the skin. During the course of doxy, and a bit after, I gave him probiotics.

My vet never did say to restrain or even really limit his activities, even when I grilled him on it. Neither did he tell me NOT to restrain him either, and he understandably stated a disclaimer, that it could be dangerous in instances, especially if an embolism, and that any other possible long term effects/damages where not well studied. Evan so, I planned on restraining him, only taking him out on leash, etc. As luck had it, we had very slick ice on the ground the first few weeks, making it so hard to do so., can’t tell you how many times I busted my butt in the ice and mud…. and he wasn’t being at all cooperative about pooping or even peeing on leash anymore as he once was. Eventually we gave upon the restrainment. I think it was going to be detrimental to all of us, including Turbo, especially having to do so for a year. If he had been in some sort of worse state of health, then I think we would have just had to tough it out, or would have even had to more consider the immiticide/steroid/painkiller/hospitalizations route, with shorter but very stringent restriction times.

As I said, Turbo never showed any symptoms, no coughing, exhaustion, etc. prior to . He gets incredible bursts of extended energy outside sometimes, so I was very leary of this, watching closely, and I did later noticed him cough ( I think) a few times after extended bouts, but nothing serious, and no exhaustion.

Back in late May i think, seems the 28th, if my poor memory serves, he had 2 days of concerning what appeared to be gastric disturbances. I had had drastically changed some major components of his diet all at once, several things at once I think, so both the vet and I attributed it to that. But then immediately for the next two days he had coughing episodes. The vet though the 2 incidences were unrelated even though 1 immediately followed the other. We both thought the second halve could be attributed a worm die off. Dead worms eventually get absorbed through the lungs, and can certainly cause problems. Turbo restrained his own activity during this period, and I restrained him for a further couple weeks after.

No further incidences since. I’ve been leaving free to romp and exercise, sometimes he runs/plays really hard, and for extended periods, especially when friend Miller comes around.

So all has gone well thus far, Turbo looks and seems a picture of health. I wanted to wait a reasonable bit before getting another HW check, as the worms must be gone for 6 months for the antigen to be non-detectible. He had his 10th and the last dose I had of A.P. on December, and we will be taking him probably before end of month for check, and then decide where to go from there. I hope I’m able to report back with good results at that time.

GLENNA, so sorry to hear about Toby and Rex. I truly hate this ever would happens to any dog and owner. I wish some of the above, and the rest of the thread, will help you in some way. I can’t advise you on activity for your dogs, should be something you and your vet decides, and depending on many factors. Could you tell us some more? Did you vet want to use A.P. in a slow kill? Has he indicated the the degree of infection? Also wondering what part of the country you’re from? where you strict with your Iverhart regimen? Please write back. Best wishes, losul.

[losul]

Dori, I didn’t know what was gone on before, but I’m very happy for you now with the results!!

Kick up the heels and let it all out!!!! It’s good to be crazy sometimes.

[losul]

Very Sorry, to hear I.M. and yes, R.I.P. Gemma.

That’s a sweet memorial to your beloved Gemma. I’m glad you have so many fond memories of her.

[losul]

Again, my gratitude everyone for the warm welcomes! You guys have made it feel good for me being here 🙂 Thank you, all of you.

I have a few pics of Turbo and friend romping, I think back in August or September, I want too share, I’m very proud of him, but not here, I already hijacked this thread OT too much.

I have to try to get Turbo’s thread updated soon and hopefully some pics.
———–
I better let back to the Dinner Mix topic now 🙂

[losul]

BobbyDog, Cheryl PM-B.

I really like and relate too that quote. I’ve printed some up, and others keep them handy, sometimes I need reminders, LOL.

Turbo is doing amazing. I’ll be taking for his HW check in about a month or then and hope too close that chapter with a happy note. We have a new neighbor and turbo has a new sometimes friend. Miller a young black lab sometimes comes on our property and Turbo loves to play with him. Miller being such such a tolerant and good natured young feller, he takes all the abuse Turbo dishes out very well, LOL.

[losul]

Dear C4C, DogFoodie, BobbyDog, Everyone! My sincerest apologies not being able to respond sooner. I want to thank you very much for the kind words and sentiments. I’ve been following the threads and I hope to participate a little more again soon!!!

You “guys” are HUGE!! LOL I mean in that in BEST way
heartfelt and sincerely,
Losul.

P.S. I ran across this quote recently and was touched, but the author was listed as “unknown”. I think you guys wrote it?

“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

[losul]

“http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366336 Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef”

“Aimee, is there a way of knowing what pre-mix it was that the dog was fed?”
——————–

Akari, I recognized the name D Geiger as one of the authors of the paper.

It was Sojo’s pre-mix. According to Geiger, the malnourished pup was a patient back in 2006, and Sojo’s refused to reformulate or even acknowledge a problem, when it was clearly deficient when used as directed, UNTIL Geiger and colleagues finally published the paper in 2009.

IMO, Sojo’s current formula is STILL questionable whether the pre-mix makes a complete and balanced meal when used as directed, for some vitamins/minerals.

[losul]

I worded a sentence wrong and just realized, can’t edit again.

Because calcium and phosphorus (macrominerals), are the 2 largest components making up ash in a dog food diet, the total ash (all minerals) should be low.

[losul]

Hi DAML,

I like your choices of foods the Farmina and Annamaet. I also think Wellness would be a solid 3rd choice for your rotation. I was talking to a fellow awhile back on the review boards that worked at a plant producing chicken meal. He said that Wellpet had the most strict and demanding specs of any of their customers and they were very quick to reject a load that didn’t meet those specs, part of those specs would be ash content.

Wellness Core is one of the very few foods that GURANTEES MAX levels for both calcium and phosphorus in their guaranteed analysis. In the original CORE, not more than 2% calcium and not more than 1.4% Phosphorus. Because calcium and phosphorus are the 2 largest components making up ash (the macrominerals)in a dog food diet, the total ash should be low.

This from Amazon, also a chart there if you scroll down;

CORE® formulas have controlled mineral content levels and use high quality, lower ash meats. High-quality meats can cost almost twice as much as lower quality meats and have 50 – 75% lower ash levels.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by losul.

[losul]

C4C, Bobby dog, Thnx. I agree about getting more back to basics. Hopefully more manufactur’s will lean more that way in the future. It’s mind boggling to me how many dogs are having allergies, intolerances, etc., and how many folks have so much trouble finding foods that are agreeable, out of the hundreds of foods out there. Is shouldn’t be that way, and why do so many dogs seem to have these allergies in the first place, I think it’s unnatural. 10 years and more ago, I thought it was very rare for dogs to have allergies, now it seems to be very commonplace. (or maybe I was just in the dark back then, well I know I was in the dark, lol. ). All of the botanicals in Origen are what have kept me from trying so far. C4C, I hear ya on the funny looks!

Naturella, I hesitate to advise you how much to give your dog and whether or not to give it at all, I almost feel like it would be medical advice. For one thing there’s such a variance in the size of cloves, and another some dogs would be more sensitve than others. The health and and nutrition of your dog could also be a factor. Your dog is very small, and only about 1/3 the weight of mine. I give mine about 1 1/2 large cloves per week, they average about 4 grams each clove. It’s crushed and mixed in with 4 days worth of food. For the next 4 days batch, I leave garlic out of it, the next, garlic again, and so forth. I think I give him less than most sites advocating it advise, I would never give him so much that he has would have garlic breath to much extent, and well, if I would ever notice that he would actually begin to exude the odor from his skin, I feel that would be entirely too much and could be dangerous. If you do decide to use garlic so, just to be precautionary, start out tiny, like just a small slice of a clove, and make sure there isn’t any kind of intolerance or allergic reaction first. I wouldn’t think 1 small/medium sized clove a week, distributed in several meals would be too much for your dog. I know I wasn’t much help, sorry…. BTW, I can almost smell the food a cookin! MMmmmm garlic toast, Luv feta cheese, olive oil, and balsamic vinegar on my tomato slices!

Aimee, Wow you exuded garlic fragrances for 3 days after just eating 1 meal with some? Are you sure you didn’t take a large doggy bag home with you and indulge several times? 😀

I didn’t mean to imply that all mammals have equal susceptabilities, just that they have the same suceptibilties.

I think the papers desribing garlic use for sickle cell anemia used aged garlic extract (AGE). Many of the compounds and properties were changed by the aging or fermenting process, no? At any rate garlic and it’s many compounds have a whole lot of medicinal possibilities wouldn’t you think?

It’s hard to come by actual research on humans, it’d be very unethical to try to induce hemolytic anemia in humans. There seems to be lots of it on various mammals, cats, rats/mice, dogs, cows, horses, sheep, birds, etc. Some of what I’ve seen is merely anecdotal, such as a professor and some students informally volunteered to eat an abnormal amount of onions ( i think it was 2 medim/large, cooked, daily) for a period of 5 days, they all displayed physical signs of anemia, and upon blood testing indeed showed that to be the case.

Here is a study where the researchers where attempting to test the effects of certain native vegetables that could mitigate garlics unwanted effects on Nigerians. The actual study was done with rats, but as I said….;

“Garlic (Allium sativum) is popularly consumed in Nigeria because of its health benefit in treatment and management of several disease conditions. However, excessive intake of garlic may cause hemolytic anemia. This project sought to investigate the ability of some commonly consumed tropical green leafy vegetables—namely, Amaranthus cruentus, Baselia alba, Solanum macrocarpon, Ocimum gratissimum, and Corchorus olitorius—to prevent garlic-induced hemolytic anemia.”

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2004.7.498

———————————————-

Is this the study that brought about AVMA’s determination that garlic should not be fed to dogs?

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2000.61.1446

Objective—To determine whether dogs given garlic extract developed hemolytic anemia and to establish the hematologic characteristics induced experimentally by intragastric administration of garlic extract.

Animals—8 healthy adult mixed-breed dogs.

Procedure—4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight <b>(5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days.</b> The remaining 4 contol dogs received water instead of garlic extract. Complete blood counts were performed, and methemoglobin and erythrocyte-reduced glutathione concentrations, percentage of erythrocytes with Heinz bodies, and percentage of eccentrocytes were determined before and for 30 days after administration of the first dose of garlic extract. Ultrastructural analysis of eccentrocytes was performed.

Results—Compared with initial values, erythrocyte count, Hct, and hemoglobin concentration decreased to a minimum value on days 9 to 11 in dogs given garlic extract. Heinz body formation, an increase in erythrocyte- reduced glutathione concentration, and eccentrocytes were also detected in these dogs. However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to
dogs. Eccentrocytosis appears to be a major diagnostic feature of garlic-induced hemolysis in dogs. (Am J Vet Res 2000;61:1446–1450)
—————

Some notes about this; At the rate I give Turbo, it would take 2 years to give my dog the equivalent of what the researchers gave these dogs all in 1 week. The second paragraph gives plenty enough to be concerned about, but “However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia”

————————————————————–
I’m amazed you would not be concerned about feeding a dog grape pomace, when as far as I know, the causitive agent of grapes/kidney failure has yet to be determined.

[losul]

Aimee, I would guess your husband has an intolerance, or even an allergy to garlic? I know some folks with those. I’m sure dogs can easily be the same.

Hehe, I admit, the first thing that came to mind was grapes, when you agreed with USA. But I wasn’t thinking whether you or your family ate them. I just thought it was ironic how you could defend a companies’ use, (who was it Hill’s or Purina?) of grape pomace in a dog food, but feel any and all garlic is unacceptable.

No, I just thought I’d ask, because virtually all mammals, including cats, dogs, rats, primates, humans, even ungulates and birds, have the same susceptibilities to the toxicities from over consumption of garlic, onions, etc. Granted humans have built more tolerance from the long history of consuming them, but they still can and do get all the side effects up to, and including oxidative stress and anemia. Yet vast numbers of people around the world still chose to consume them anyway over the ages for their medicinal properties.

Ever wonder why vampires have an intense fear of garlic? Vampires were thought to be those who have anemia, or other blood disorders- the pale skin, photosensitivity, yellow eyes, etc. They required the blood of healthy others in order to “sustain” them. A big dose of garlic would not be good news at all for the anemic vampire. Some sects and religions even weeded out the vampires amongst them, by those who would not partake.

Anyway, my stance is that dog food companies probably shouldn’t include garlic in their foods. I don’t really appreciate garlic or many other “medicinal botanicals” in many of the “higher” end foods such as sage extract, juniper berry extract. ginseng, gingko, licorice root, anjelica root, marigold, chamomile, etc. Many or all of them can cause allergic reactions for thing. They just don’t belong in dog foods, especially where someone might be feeding them 100% everyday for long periods, IMO. And one with grape pomace in it, well I would automatically reject it as completely unacceptable.

That said, I don’t take any issue with a person adding garlic to their dog’s food, as long they understand the possible allergic reactions, intolerances, or in larger quantities, toxicities, and they treat it as a controlled dosage rather than a food item. I’ve been adding potent crushed whole raw garlic to Turbo’s food at the rate of about 1 and 1/2 extra large cloves or about 6 grams/week, for probably 4 or 5 months now, and intend to keep doing so. For us, the probable benefits exceed what I perceive to be very small risk.

[losul]

So I was wondering Aimee and U.S.A.

Do you and your families eat onions and/or garlic in any amount?

[losul]

Aw debi, it’s just these type of situations that is so heartbreaking, and especially knowing that I can’t really be of much help. I can’t imagine how bad you must feel and especially to be hit suddenly with it. Under these circumstances, it’s hard and awkward for me to try and touch on the subject, but I will try in some small way.

This just goes way beyond any advice I could give you, I couldn’t begin to tell you, about prognosis, and whether it’s an end stage thing. I think if possible, you should work with a good vet, and preferably a holistic/integrative vet that also has an understanding of these things, like milk thistle,to make good decisions. There’s just so many factors involved, such as the cause of liver failure, i.e. disease, leptospirosis or other baterial/viral infections, acute or chronic, poisoning by things like aflatoxin, mycotoxins, poisonous mushrooms, degree of damage, degree of discomfort to your dog, medications being given, cancer etc.

Ordinarily, the liver has a very remarkable ability to regenerate damaged cells, if there is still enough of it healthy, and it’s not overwhelmed. Unfortunately symptons of disease/faiure, don’t often show up until much of it’s capacity has already been damaged.

So much is still unknown about the mechanism’s of action from the compounds, most notably silymarin, in milk thistle . I have some rudimentary knowledge, the little that was passed down to me, and some that I have researched, but I really don’t know anywhere near enough. It’s said to be a potent antioxidant and has anti-carcinogenic properties. It’s said to to help liver cells regenerate, protect them from damage, reduces iron in the liver which can contribute to damage, etc. There is evidence that it inhibits certain enzymes in the liver, including some involved in metabolizing certain medications. In the case of some acute poisonings, and if milk thistle is given soon enough, it could partly be the inhibition of some these same enzymes that prevents the liver from metabolizing those hepatotoxins and harming the liver? (I don’t really know that’s just speculation on my part). Why it apparently worsened the jaundice and lethargy in your dogs case, I could really only speculate as to that also.

Oh God, I wish I could be of more help. I’m so sorry. My thoughts and best wishes are with you.

[losul]

Good Morning all!

Steve Brown replied to me this morning. He didn’t reply directly to my second message, and to be honest, i don’t remember exactly the content and what I asked on the second. Probably he went into depth enough on the first to satisfy the second.
—————

Comments: Hi Steve. There has been some questions about using your
dinner mix with muscle meat and with or without various organ
meats,(liver, kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, etc.) but especially
liver. I was under the impression that it was designed to be balanced
without addition of any organs, using just all muscle meat, no liver,
etc. But then a poster on DFA wrote that you had replied to his
question as the following; ——————– Is it okay to feed
muscle meat AND organs when using your dinner mix? Yes, its okay to
add muscle meat and some organ meat, but please dont add a lot of
liver. Keep the liver to less than 10% of the total meat.Adding up to
20% hearts is fine. Steve Brown ———————- Now it’s
unclear to me. SHOULD liver and other organs be added (on top of
muscle meat) to your SSLL mix in order to make a meal balanced? I
have been keeping your dinner mix on hand for those times when I
didn’t want to fully home prep, or if I just had plain meat handy, no
organs, and I always made sure NOT to use the mix with liver. So
now my question to you is, does the mix make a complete balanced
dinner without using organs meats? If so, then does using organ meats
with it pose any danger of oversupplementation of any
vitamins/minerals? Thank you in advance Luv your C.A.D. book.

—-

“Thanks for the really good questions and the clarifications.

YES. When blended according to directions, using just lean meats and, if just feeding beef, some proper oils, the dinner mix will meet AAFCO and NRC standards.

But adding small amounts of organs can help provide more depth to the nutrition. A little bit of liver can help, but no more than 10% of the meat, while heart, which, as you said, some consider to be a muscle meat, can be a much higher percentage. For poultry, the percentage heart can be a little higher, but for beef, I’d prefer less liver (5% range) and heart (10-15% range).

I am a little wary about adding other organs, such as the spleen, pancreas, and so forth. These organs can be very mineral rich, and I’ve not analyzed the dinner mix using these organs. My intuition tells me that if one can get these organs, the dinner mix will not be needed, except for perhaps calcium, phosphorus, iodine and manganese. As I think this through, if one can get these organs, a much simpler nutrient blend would be better.

I hope this helps.

Steve Brown

—————————————–

[losul]

Hi C4C, I guess I missed your post regarding this the other day. Good question. I think nowadays it’s kind of ambiguous as to what’s exactly in pre-ground grocery store meats. But I would think it’s safe assume there’s no organ meats in them unless specified, and unless I’m mistaken. It used to be that, with ground beef they specified ground chuck, ground round, ground sirloin, etc. Now from what I see it’s just specified as 80, 85, 90, 93% lean etc, without any indication from what cuts they come from. I think I’ve seen ground turkey sometimes specified with so much percentage white meat, but it’s even hard to tell exactly what might be in it also.

Since I have bought a grinder, I rarely buy anything grocery store pre-ground, not even for ourselves.

I’ve always been under the impression that most folks who were using the the pre-mixes such as SSLL, were using just that, the pre-ground grocery store meats, or maybe cubing up from cuts of meats, and not adding any organ meats, for a balanced meal.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by losul.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by losul.

[losul]

Hmm, i see now that your vet has just ordered the thyroid panel. Let us know the results when you can.

I second Everything Betsy said, and she said so eloquently! Bailey’s in great hands!

[losul]

Hi again Cyndi.

It’s to be expected, that the first thing a vet against raw home feeding is going to automatically suspect a deficiency, nutritional excess or something. It’s only going to take what 2 or 3 days to get any blood work results. So I agree with U.S.A. and all the others, and as I said previously, I wouldn’t make any immediate major dietary changes or assume much, at least until then. And even then if nothing comes up in the bloodwork, your vet will still be biased against your home prepping. It won’t hurt, at least not anything but your pocketbook, to use some commercial prepared raw, in place of some of your home prepped., if that makes everyone feel better. But to just switch immediatelyto a lot of kibble, uh no.

Thanks U.S.A for writing to Steve Brown. I know that heart muscle is not so much considered an organ for the purposes of feeding, and I use alot of beef hearts, many times a majority component of my homemade, but not so sure that Steve’s intent is nutrient rich organs like kidneys, lungs, spleen, pancreas, etc would fall into that same category of ” 20% is O.K.” with his pre-mix such as heart muscle would.

Regardless of any of that, i don’t hink it likely that what you have been feeding is causing any kind of major problems, The main thing is that you aren’t feeding bone-in grinds with the pre-mix, I think.

I just wrote Steve asking him to clarify a few more things, actually wrote twice, because I forgot something the first message. I keep a bag of his mix here on the rare occaison that I use if I get lazy, forgetful, etc, for whatever reason don’t want to do the full home prep. I’ve always assumed it was designed to be balanced with muscle meat alone, the instructions don’t say otherwise. I’ve never used liver/other organs with with it. Should it not be believed then that it’s balanced then with using muscle meat alone? It shouldn’t be so ambiguous, IMO.

I know that Know better pet foods has 2 pre-mixes for raw feeding, Better in the raw. One formula MUST have liver added by the user, the other NO liver should be added.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by losul.

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