[kms]

Then how did you stabilize Micah? Was there a food that he could tolerate and you just used that food as your base from which to test?

[kms]

Pattyvaughn –

I called the vet (Internal Medicine Specialist) about the yellow stool and they basically said they expected some messed up stool for a while. Then, as we were talking, I mentioned that I was starting to look at various diets to see which protein we might want to try 1st (once Augie is stabilized – hopefully in about 8 wks). She said “Absolutely not. Do not introduce any new ingredients. He should stay on Royal Canin for the rest of his life. The only thing I advise testing out are treats or chews, like a bully stick.”

I tried to carefully make a case for why we should do an elimination diet so that we can eventually move him to a better diet, but she was adamant. What do you make of this? Is this standard vet protocol for a dog with IBD? When you went through this, did your vet support the elimination diet and the hope of a rotation diet in the future? I’m just trying to figure out if I have unrealistic expectations – or if this vet does not have a strong background in nutrition. Thanks.

[kms]

Pattyvaughn –

Thanks for the info. I will start researching which foods to try so I can start my list of proteins/starches to test. Augie will be 10 mo by the time we’re ready to start testing, but I think I’m going to stick with HDM’s list anyway. He is on day #10 of 100% Royal Canin HP and his gas/breath/diarrhea have improved a lot – but, about once per day, he’s having yellow stool (usually in the afternoon). The yellow stool is usually soft or runny – but he has had a couple formed ones too – and every couple days it’s has a clear mucous in it. The yellow happens about once per day and the rest of his stools are formed and brown. Has your pup ever had this? Do you think that is just his body adjusting? I’m worried about the mucous.

Anyone in same sitaution (LBP with IBD who is on strict vet diet) –

Just wanted to post info on making dog treats out of canned food. I verified that this is ok with the vet and Royal Canin. I took the canned food version of my dogs kibble (Royal Canin HP) and baked it to make treats. The canned food in my case is NOT ok for ALS, but his kibble is ok for ALS and has the proper calcium – so I’m only using the canned (baked into treats) for occasional training. The treats come out chewy and are keeping his interest (and this did not smell up the house)……..

For loaf style canned food baked in oven:
1. Remove loaf and cut in tiny cubes. It does not shrink much after baking.
2. Sprinkle pieces across cookie sheet. Do not need to grease it.
3. Bake uncovered at 325 degrees (if using a dark pan) for 20-23 minutes
4. Store in frig for 5-7 days.

For loaf style canned food in microwave:
1. Remove loaf and cut in tiny cubes. It does not shrink much after baking.
2. Sprinkle pieces across microwave safe baking dish. Do not need to grease it.
3. Cook for 3-4 minutes (just using plastic microwave cover)
4. Store in frig for 5-7 days.

[kms]

Pattyvaughn –

During the 2 week test of each ingredient, do I add the ingredient to every meal or once per day? How much do I add each time? (just a tablesppon – or maybe follow the topper rule – keep it to 20% of his total daily calories?)

Also, when an ingredient passes the 2 week test, do I continue to give that ingredient as I move on to test the next ingredient? So, in your example, if the duck tested ok, would I stop duck and start adding sweet pot? or continue duck as I add sweet potatoes – keeping all the “extra” ingredients (both duck + sweet pot) to 20% or his total daily calories….

Again – thank you so very much!

[kms]

Lablubber –

If you want to make sure that your pup has developed the proper immunity, look into getting a titer test run instead of giving another set of vaccines. And then get a titer run each year instead of re-vaccinating. Eventually, you will need to re-vaccinate – but at least you didn’t do it until you had to.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by kms.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 2 months ago by kms.

[kms]

PattyVaughn –

Thanks for the feedback! If Augie has consistently good stool for a month, I’m hoping that’s when I can start to get him on a better diet. The vet wanted me to go 10 weeks – she even suggested keeping him on RC for the rest of his life – which left me kinda speechless.

So now I’m trying to figure out what next. Elimination diet or Limited Ingredient food? If elimination diet, what do I add first? How much? and for how long? I’m assuming 1st thing to add should be a protein. Should it be one he never had – or can I start with chicken? (foods he had so far contained chicken, salmon, turkey, rabbit – but we’re not sure if any of those were truly a problem since he also had worms, bacteria and several doses of antibiotics). Would I give it just once (with 1 meal) and wait a few days to see what happens – or give it with every meal for several days and then see? He’s 50 lbs, 8 mo, male, intact, Weim.

Sharon –

Thank you for posting the info about the the shampoo – this is the first time I heard that. I used Allergroom by Virbac for many years on our Lab (who we lost to cancer @ 9 yo) and have been using it on our Weim pup also. So, needless to say, we’re now looking for another shampoo. Maybe Mercola Organic? Pricey, but I trust their products.

Thanks so much to everyone. This site has helped me be a much better mom. Hoping to eventually do a rotation diet and maybe even feed raw down the road. Although, the Internal Medicine specialist who diagnosed Augie with IBD said that she doesn’t think a “rotation diet” is going to be possible. Hope that’s not true.

[kms]

Patty Vaughn, RecueDaneMom and all –

Just wondered what your opinion is on my Augie update from last week. We started the Royal Canin HP – today is the last day of a 10 day transition. So far, his stools have improved quite a bit. The only diarrhea in 10 days has been on days he exercised very hard – and usually by end of the day it’s back to formed or semi-formed. But I am really worried about the food. It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the 1st ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc – plus, there has been so much bad news on rice lately. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Seems like I’m fixing one problem and creating another. The vet doesn’t want me feeding anything but this kibble for 2.5 months (and he’s ok with me continuing Probiotics). Would feeding a 7 mo pup a food with only 19% protein for that long hurt him at this important point in his development? I called Royal Canin and they said the actual protein level is 21% and actual fat is 19%.

Thank you so much for any help!!!

[kms]

Hi all! Just wanted to post an update on Augie and really need advice again. My vet has done all he can do to get rid of the Campylobactor bacteria. First, he put Augie on Marbofloxcin – which I opposed after reading about adverse effects on large breed puppies. After 4 days with no change in stool, we switched to Clavamox. Did 1 round. The stool is the same (1st part is formed, 2nd part runny). So vet sent us to an Internal Medicine specialist. Specialist did exam and sent bloodwork to Texas A&M for a CBC panel, profile and GI Panel. All bloodwork normal – TLI and Folate were fine and no pancreatic inflammation. Specialist thinks this is likely Inflammatory Bowel Disease. She suggested doing a biopsy of the large and small intestine (either a Biopsy via surgery or Biopsy via Endoscope). I asked if we could try elimination or hypoallergenic diet to see if the IBD is due to diet and she said “since he’s not losing weight, I’d be ok with that – but wouldn’t know anything for couple months”. If we go that route, she recommends Royal Canin HP (hydrolyzed protein; hypoallergenic, soy based protein). I asked about treating IBD with RAW or at least with a more premium limited ingredient food and she had no experience/opinion there.

I worry about him being only 7 mo old and having to go through all this. Can pups really have true IBD this young? My gut is telling me to change the diet, but I could end up spending 2-3 more months on something that doesn’t pan out for him. What do you think? Has anyone ever fed Royal Canin HP for GI issues? It’s only 19% protein (soy) and rice is the first ingredient. I thought grains were bad for dogs with IBD, colitus, etc. It does, however, have ok calcium levels (2.5 mg/1,000 kcal) and it’s approved for all life stages.

Thanks for any advice or insight….

[kms]

Just wanted to update and see if anyone has any thoughts on this. About a week ago, the vet put Augie back on anti-biotics (SMZ TMP). His diarrhea had gotton so bad that he was having it all night long. They also had him start back on Pro-Pectalin. After about 3-4 days on that (SMZ and Pro-Pect), his diarrhea got better and his stools became intermittently soft and formed – with occasional diarrhea/runny stuff. In the meantime, his stool had been sent to an outside lab. The results came back Saturday and the lab found a pathogenic bacteria called Campylobacter. They switched his anti-biotic immediately to a new one called Marbofloxacin and continued the Pro-Pectalin. He has been on that combination for 2 days and things are about the same so far. I read that Marbofloxacin is not recommended for large breed puppies under 12 months of age (can cause bone/joint abnormalities) so I called the vet. He said that this is true, but only in pets who have taken the med for longer than 14 days (his script is for 14 days). He also said it had the least side effects of all the anti-biotics that the lab recommended.

Does anyone know anything about Campylobacter and/or Marbofloxacin? Is it possible that this is what has been wrong all along?

As far as feeding, I’m still feeding NVI Rabbit, along with a theraputic dose of Mercola Probiotics (no pumkpin, no digestive enzymes, no treats other than his kibble).

[kms]

losul –

Wow – thanks for all the information. I have been reading all evening! Really bugs me that the vet didn’t instruct me to give Pro-Pectalin and SMZ TMP a couple hours apart. I definitely gave many of those doses at the same time.

The Metronidozole was prescribed when Clostridium (not sure what type) was found in my pups stool (end of Sept). He did 2 rounds of Metro, along with Pro-Pectalin. After 2nd round was completed, the vet said that the Clostridium had gone back down to normal levels – but other bacteria was found also (bacteria that was either not detected originally – or it was something new my pup had picked up). Either way, he was surprised that it had not been wiped out by the Metronidozole, so he prescribed 1 round SMZ TMP. During that round, his stool turned bright yellow and soft/diarrhea for several days and then it became a weird mix of half yellow/half brown and eventually all brown and firm.

[kms]

Thank you guys so very much for all the feedback. You have no idea how much this is helping.

As far as dehyrdation…. I’ve been checking gums/skin/saliva daily since diarrhea started and he seems ok. I find that surprising because he has had 1/2 c – 3/4 c diarrhea every 2 hrs for the last 72 hrs (all night long too). Prior to that, it was more like every 3-4 hrs and he did not wake up in middle of night. He has been drinking tons of water and I was giving pumpkin with each meal up until a couple days ago (no pumpkin since Sat night).

I started Pro-Pectalin yesterday. He’s had 2 doses so far. Still having diarrhea, but he only wanted to go out twice last night after we went to bed (instead of every 1-2 hrs like before). This morning, 2 stoools so far – mix of diarrhea, moucous and thicker diarrhea (milkshake consistency). It’s really concerning that Pro-Pectalin interferes with TMP. I didn’t think to look into that because I assumed my vet wouldn’t prescribe 2 things that don’t work together. The last time he did that (Pro-Pect + SMZ TMP) we had already gone through 2 rounds Metronidozole, so maybe he was just grasping.

As far as bland diet…..We started bland (boiled chkn/plain white rice) at the beginning of his 2nd round of Metronidozole (plus Pro-Pectalin). During that week, his stool was soft, runny and had a slimy coating (never firmed up). Then we did another week of bland plus a course of SMZ TMP (plus Pro-Pectalin). During that week, stool firmed up and turned bright yellow. By end of that week, it was formed and a mix of brown and yellow in color. So, for what it’s worth, it seems like the stool did not improve on the bland diet until we started SMZ TMP. (After that, we transitioned to Orijen. Stool got soft/runny during, but firmed up on day #5 of 100% Orijen. Had a week of good stool but then it started to get greasy. That’s when I started Dig Enz’s and Probiotics – which helped breath, gas and volume of stool – but not consistency – stool was still formed followed by soft runny).

The vet doesn’t want to change his diet until we get test results, but I know the kibble isn’t helping. I stopped the Dig Enz’s 2 days ago because I was afraid they were adding to the problem, but it hasn’t made a difference.

So at this point, he’s on kibble + double dose Probitoics once per day + Pro-Pectalin. I have stopped all: pumpkin and digestive enzymes.

Here are my questions:

Would you hold off on SMZ TMP until test results are back – or start them now? I don’t know enough about oil of oregano to go that route yet, but have started reading. Will the combo of probiotics + Pro-Pectalin + compromised GI system be enough to fight the Clostridium without antibiotics (at least for next 3-4 days)?

As far as the “double dose” Probiotics…. the jar says Therputic dose for his weight is 2 scoops per day. Is that what you’d do, or would you do that with every meal (which would be double or tiple what the jar calls for – he eats 3 times per day).

If we stay on kibble, would you add digestive enzymes back in?

What does “lightly cooked” mean? When I make bland, I boil the chicken until completely cooked and make white rice according to the pkg.

Thank you so much.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by kms.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by kms.

[kms]

duke the boxer –

Thanks – I’ll look at that but I hesitate about grains because I read several places that that they’re inflamatory and not good for colitus dogs. The diarrhea did start aroud day #5 on the NVI Rabbit (so maybe it’s the food?) – but it also coincides with when I stopped the double doses of theraputic Probitoics and went down to maint (so maybe it’s that?). I talked to the vet tech who ran his stool the other day and she said that he had a “moderate” amount of Clostridium in it “more than is normally found”. So it could be that too? or a combo of them all????? She said they are really stumped.

I have been reading about how digestive enzymes can sometimes cause diarrhea in dogs with Colitus, so i stopped them on Fri night to see if anything changed. It has only been 24 hrs, but no change so far – still 100% diarrhea.

I can give him anti-biotics (SMZ TMP), but I know that they could be what caused the Colitus in the first place. (Although I was not giving probiotics back then). Or I could change the food again? fast him?

Summary… 6 mo old Weim who has had soft stools since we got him at 9 wks. Has had Colitus for the last couple months after 3 rounds of anti-biotics (for high bacteria in stool). Currently has full blown diarrhea (for the last 5 days) and stool test shows no parasites but a moderate level of Clostridium. He’s eating NVI Rabbit (day #6), taking probiotics but no Digestive enzymes. Outside lab results of his stool are not due till Wed or Thurs.

Pattyvaughn, RescueDaneMom, Duke and anyone else – what do you think? Thank you.

[kms]

Melissaandcrew – can you explain why probiotics and digestive enzymes could actually make things worse for some dogs? My 6 mo old Weim pup has had colitis for several months. We are on our 3rd food (Eukanuba Puppy Growth, Orijen LBP, NVI grain-free Rabbit) and I am giving Probiotics, Digestive Enzymes and pumpkin daily. It seems to be getting worse, so i was looking at what food to try next (after we stay on the rabbit for a few more weeks), but now I’m wondering if it’s something in the way his body is processing the Prob’s or Enz’s or both. Thanks.

[kms]

Augie’s vet appt was yesterday. He is 38 lbs (gaining about 1 lb every 7-8 days). He has had diarrhea for last 3 days for no apparent reason (no pattern, no changes). The nearest “change” to that was when I reduced the probiotics from Theraputic dose to Maint about 3 days prior to that. So yesterday, they tested him again for everything (hook, whip, Giarddia, Coccidia, Clostridium,….). They tested a stool I brought with me – plus they took a fecal. Both stools came back clean except for a little Clostridium. Vet said he feels that he has had ongoing bouts of colitis ever since the antibiotics back in Oct. Even despite trying 2 different foods, adding probiotics, digestive enzymes and pumpkin, it has not resolved. Vet sent part of the fecal to an outside lab to see what they can find. It will take 7 days for results. If they do not find anything, he thinks we should see a specialist and they will prob want to do a colonoscopy.

I’m trying to see if the diarrhea resolves itself, but seeing no improvement. Today was same thing. The vet gave me a prescription for SMZ Tmp, just in case the diarrhea does not improve in the next day or so – but I fear that will just make it worse. I don’t even know what to say at this point. He’s eating, drinking, playing, sleeping normally – and no vomiting at all. I still hope he just needs a combination of healing and a food that will agree with him, but that is looking less and less likey every day. Right now, he has full blown diarrhea and that worries me. I do have a tube of Pro-Pectalin (he took that to help solidify the stool when this first started back in Oct) , but I really hate to give him anything new at all right now.

[kms]

Duke the Boxer –

I got this for Augie and it has slowed down his eating significantly. He used to wolf down 1.5 cups of food in less than a minute. Now it takes him a good 8-10 minutes. It’s harder to clean than a regular stainless steel bowl, but well worth it. In case the link below doesn’t work, it’s called the “Pet SkidStop Slow Feed Pet Bowl” – found it on Amazon.

[kms]

So do you mean stay on double doses of Probiotics, regular doses of Digestive Enzymes and Perfect Form till vet appt – and then, if stool is clear, discontinue all of it or just the PF and pumpkin? Just want to make sure I don’t misunderstand.

A was thinking yesterday… could the twice per day double dose of Probiotics for 2 1/2 weeks be too much for him? I could back it down to a double dose once per day (that’s actually what the jar calls a “theraputic dose”). I called Mercola and asked if that could cause loose stool. She said that you really can’t give too much of Probiotics, but some dogs will end up with loose stool if they have too much of a build up in their system. Probably grasping at straws here…

[kms]

mfulton7 –

Thanks. I appreciate your feedback very much and need all the help I can get. I hope “more time” is what it comes down to – that would be a huge relief. I think I’ve read so many threads where people said they noticed a change in stool fairly quickly, that I assumed this was another dead end. It has only been 6 days since he has been on NVI Rabbit @ 100% (plus I changed the protein source), so maybe he just needs more time to adapt to the food and for his gut to heal. I will rule out parasites again while I’m waiting.

All –

When first starting out on perfect Form, does the stool get worse before it gets better? I gave him PF twice per day for the last 2 days and his stool got progressively softer. Last night, it was even to the point of runny – like a thick tomato juice. This morning, it was half formed and half soft again. I’m just wondering if this is normal or if there is something in it that doesn’t agree with him.

[kms]

I made a vet appt for this coming wed – will have a fecal sent out. Also, I started Perfect Form last night. He ate it right up – no issue with taste. So far, he has had 3 stools – all 3 softer/runnier than normal. But he has only had 2 doses, so it’s prob too soon to tell. As far as pumpkin, I’ll stop that today.

I like everything I’ve read about Honest Kitchen products and would be willing to try. Also have been reading about Primal, Darwin and NV frozen and freeze-dried raw. My biggest fear is that things could get worse at a critical time in his development. I’d also have to face both my vet and breeder – who aren’t really in favor of my direction so far (in terms of going to a kibble rotation diet and also for heading toward raw down the road). But I’ll keep reading and taking baby steps. Another reason why I’m so thankful for this forum.

The NVI Rabbit uses chicken fat as a preservative and it’s 4th on the ingredient list. So NVI Rabbit is not 100% chicken-free, but it’s fat instead of meat. I don’t know if that changes anything. In other words, can I still rule out “chicken intolerance” – or could that small amount of chicken fat still cause a chicken intolerance? I really hope his system just needs more time to heal, as Pattyvaughn sugggested. It’s just that I’ve never had a dog who didn’t have worms or diarrrhea at some point – and it has always been remedied quickly. So I keep worrying that it’s something more serious.

I’ve read on threads where people go back to grain-inclusive and the stools get better. Why is that? I thought grains were not good for a dog. The reason I went grain-free is because I thought it would be healthier and the food would be less likely to trigger an allergy.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by kms.

[kms]

No – he was not scratching, biting, or chewing at all when on the chicken-based foods. There was no sign that anything was wrong, other than his stool. His stool back then was the same as it is now – starts out formed and then goes runny. Oh and he does it in 2 squats almost every time – first he pushes out the formed stool and then he walks around for about 10 seconds and squats again to push out the runny stuff…

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by kms.

[kms]

RescueDaneMom, Hershy and PattyVaughn –

Thanks for getting back to me so quick. I’ll get a stool sample to the vet asap. The last time he was tested and clear of parasites was 10/22 (that was after we had completed 2 doses Strongid and 3 rounds anti-biotics for roundworms and Clostridium). At that time (10/22), they tested for worms, Coccidia, and Guiardia and he was good. But it’s possible he picked something up since then (although I watch him like a hawk and he is always on leash in yard).

Also, I’ll start the Perfect Form today. Just to verify, I am going to make a paste out of the PF and mix the paste into his meals along with the pumpkin and Probiotics and Dig Enz’s, right?

What is you gut on this? Does it seem like he may have parasites again – or is it starting to look like a problem with his lrg intestine – or just not the right food yet? or does it sound like an issue with chicken/chicken fat? He has not been scratching, biting, chewing and is eating/drinking normal.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by kms.

[kms]

Just wanted to update. I’m starting to get more worried. We made the last transition step yesterday and are now at 100% NVI Rabbit. It was a 9 day transition. Still doing digestive enzymes and 1 heaping tblsp pumpkin at each meal – plus a double dose of Probiotics at each meal. Meals are twice per day (1 1/4 c NVI Rabbit per meal) – plus I use 1 c for treats throughout the day – so that’s a total of 3.5 c per day (he’s a 35 lb, 6 mo Weim). Other than the improvement in the quantity/frequency of stool and less fishy smell (which is probably due to the dig enz’s, not the food), it’s the same. The first part comes out nice and formed – and second part comes out like pudding. It has only been 2 days now that he has been on it @ 100%, but shouldn’t I have seen gradual improvement the whole time we were transitioning? or am I not being patient enough? It just seems like most people see a improvement right away. I’m getting worried that it may not be the food. He has now been on 4 foods (Eukanuba Puppy Growth, Chicken & Rice bland diet, Orijen LBP, NVI Rabbit) and all 4 resulted in the same thing. The first 3 were chcken based and the last is rabbit based (although it does use chicken fat as a preservative). His last antibiotic and negative fecal were 40 days ago – so the antibiotics are long gone from his system – and he has been on a double dose of Probiotics for 2 weeks. The really weird thing is…. in all this mess, he HAS had some days with great stools. He had 3 days in a row at one point while on the chicken/rice bland diet – and then he had about 3-4 days in a row when on Orijen – but there was no pattern that I could see.

Should I start looking for another food or give this food more time?
Could the 1 c I’m giving as training treats be messing him up because they aren’t being given with dig enz’s and prob’s?
Is 1 1/4 c (sometimes 1 1/2 c) too much to feed in a meal (ie. should I feed him 3 times/day instead of 2 times/day) I moved to twice per day feedings about 1 month ago at the suggestion of the breeder – she said it would give his GI tract more time to rest.
Should I stay on a double dose of the probiotics?
Do you think I need to see the vet?
I got the Perfect Form – should I try adding that now? I got concerned when I saw that it’s not allowed to be sold in some states. Can you shed some light on that?

I know that’s a lot of questions and I really appreciate any and all advice.

[kms]

Wow – I didn’t know about the dark stool meaning high protein. That’s a huge relief – I was starting to worry that he had blood in it again. Couldn’t find any other explanation on the web.

He has had 2 more stools since this morning. 1 was rock solid (there was MUCH celebrating in the yard). But the second one was semi-formed – followed by 1/2 cup soft/runny (Arghhh!!). But still, it’s continuing to get better. I’ll bump up to 75%/25% tomorrow. Would never have gotton this far without this forum. Thank you.

[kms]

RescueDaneMom and Pattyvaughn –

Thanks! I did some reading last night and ordered some from Amazon.

As far as the transition, the stools the first 3 days (75%Orijen LBP/25% NVI Rabbit) were basically half formed followed by half runny. Then I moved to 50%/50% and the first day was exactly the same. But the second day (yesterday) was slightly different : his first 2 stools were very formed – almost dry – and he seemed like he was straining to push them out. The third stool was large, formed and greasy/shiny – followed by 1/2 cup runny. The fourth one was was soft (no runny stuff, but no formed stuff either). So far today (day 3 of the 50/50 mix), he had one stool and it was formed followed by 1/4 c soft. I’m not sure if I see a pattern yet or not, but it’s definitely not getting worse. Yesterday, I was starting to get worried that he was constipated (even though I’m still giving him pumpkin – 1 tsp/10 lbs), but then it kinda changed back to where it has been all along. What do you think? If I keep going, tomorrow would be the next step in the transition (75% NVI Rabbit/25% Orijen).

One other thing I was curious about…his stool are always dark – even when I was back on 100% Orijen. The dark stool seemed to start when I started giving him pumpkin. Does this make sense?

Thank you again for all your help.

[kms]

Caroline –

Thank you for the info on slippery elm and Perfect Form. I’ll read up on it. Would Perfect Form have enough slippery elm in it to suffice? or would using slippery elm only (like the slippery soup) be better? Also, he takes Mercola dig enzymes and Mercola probiotics (thanks to this forum), so I just want to make sure there are no conflicts with the elm – this is all new to me.

Pattyvaughn –

We got him at 9 wks old and I took him for his wellness exam the following week. That’s when they found the worms. One thing I should have mentioned is he had a “little” blood (the vets words) in his stool, so the worms had progressed enough to cause that to happen. The last time he had been wormed prior to that was at 6 weeks.

[kms]

ok – started the 50/50 today. I don’t think he had a large dose of parasites. They were roundworms and we treated with Strongid (2 treatments 10 days apart). I only saw worms in 1 stool after his 1st treatment. I have tested him for worms twice since then and both were good. But with his “dirt-eating” fetish, I guess he could have them again. I’ve been diligent about “leave it” and keeping him out of trouble, but he still gets a mouthful once in a while.

I have never heard of slippery elm. What does it do and what kind would you recommend?

What do you think is wrong with his large intestine? Does it just need more healing time or do you think he may have some type of medical issue? Thanks again – very much.

[kms]

I just wanted to post an Augie update and ask for more help (sorry – someday I hope I can be the one helping). He has been on Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes for 6 days now (and still on canned pumpkin also). The changes I have noticed are: he has less gas, his gas doesn’t smell as bad as before, his breath smells less fishy and his stools are a tiny bit smaller (but still soft). 3 days ago, I began the transition from Orijen LBP to NVI grain-free Rabbit Meal (started at 75% Orijen/25% NVI). I was planning on moving to 50%/50% on day #4 (which would be tomorrow), BUT his stool is still soft (it starts out formed, but then turns to pudding). I read that you shouldn’t move to the next step until the stool is normal. Should I continue at 75/25 for another day or two – or should I move on to 50/50? or is it looking like the rabbit is not going to work for him?

Also, he has been on the “therapeutic” dose (double dose) of Mercola probiotics for 6 days. Is it time to back it down to a “maintenance” dose (single dose)? Thanks for any help!!!

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by kms.

[kms]

Pattyvaughn –

OK. Thanks! Is anyone concerned that the rabbit in NVI grain-free Rabbit Meal is sourced from China? I thought I remembered reading a discussion on that subject earlier in this thread – but I can’t remember what the consensus was and now I can’t find it.

Also, I don’t see any info on the NV website as to whether their meat is hormone-free, anti-biotic-free – and also if their vegetables are certified organic. I will contact them, but just wondered if you have any info on that? Thanks again.

[kms]

Duke the Boxer –

I guess it’s also possible that I just need to wait longer for the Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes to do their jobs – maybe that alone would get the stool in order (ie. maybe it has nothing to do with chicken…) But I do need to change his food to one with a lower calcium level. So confusing.

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Duke The Boxer –

I like the Wellness Core puppy and was going to use it in the rotation, but it’s chicken based and Augie has been on chicken since he started eating solid food. Breeder had him on Eukanuba Puppy Growth and then I switched him to Orijen LBP. So this time, I was looking for a non-chicken to help balance the nutrition (and also just in case it’s the chicken that’s causing the problem). Others I was thinking about are: Annamaet Aqualuk (salmon, 30% protein), Earthborn Coastal Catch (herring meal, 32% protein), and NVI LID Turkey meal (turkey based, 29% protein).

Do you feed Duke Wellness Core Puppy? Do you rotate – and what other kibble do you use?

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Pattyvaughn (and anyone else)-

Augie has been on Probiotics and Dig Enzymes for 4 days now. No change in stool so far – he seems to go back and forth between formed, pudding, soft, diarrhea, etc…. But like you said, it may take a few weeks for his gut to heal. Do you think it would be ok to start transitioning him from Orijen LBP to NVI rabbit meal – or should I wait until his stool has stabilized? I’m worried about all that calcium, but also don’t want to overload his system with change.

Another thing…. he’s finally starting to gain a little weight (about 1 lb every 8 days), but he’s still underweight. He’s now 5.5 months old and 34.5 lbs (should be around 43 lbs) – can see some rib and hip bone. I’m already feeding him 3.5 c/day and the Orijen bag says 2.5-2.75 c/day. Should I increase his kibble? or how about adding some coconut oil instead? (or would the coconut oil complicate things further in his GI tract)?

Again, thank you so much – and thanks to everyone who adds to this forum.

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OK – We started the Mercola Digestive enzymes yesterday. For his body weight (32 lbs), it says to use 2 scoops per meal, but I only gave him 1 scoop per meal (paranoid) just to start slow. He pooped 3 times yesterday and it was half formed and half runny – so no change so far. Today I gave him a full dose at breakfast (2 scoops) and will give him a full dose at dinner. How long does it typically take to see some results with Digestive Enzymes?

As far as the Probiotic, I didn’t start that yet. Wanted to add things 1 at a time in case something goes wrong. Thought I’d start adding the Probiotic in a day or so – and will add it to each meal for several days. Then, I can back to Probiotic 2-3 times/week and continue the Digestive Enzymes with each meal.

After he has been on the Probiotic for a couple days and no issues, then I can start transitioning him to NVI Rabbit Meal. Am I moving too slow on this or is this ok?

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I just realized that the NVI rabbit has even higher fiber (7%) than the Orijen. If the high fiber is what is making him poop so much, then this could make it worse. The 1% increase isn’t that much – but maybe I should opt for one with a lot less fiber. I feel like everything he eats goes in one end and out the other with no absorption. Could that be why he’s gaining weight so slowly? and will the digestive enzymes help with that situation?

If I don’t go with the rabbit, other non-chicken choices would be: Earthborn Wholistic Coastal Catch, Annamaet Aqualuk or Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Turkey Meal. They are 29-32% protein, and 3.5-4% fiber.

I’ll try the digestive enzymes and probiotic for a few days before I do anything else (just to introduce each change one at a time). Hopefully, that will get his stools more normal and then can take the next step. Everything should be arriving today (enzymes, probiotic, tripett) and I found small bags of NVI Rabbit and Earthborn Wholistic at my local pet store. Thanks for any advice and for following this saga….

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Pattyvaughn –

Thank you so much! The rotation I’m thinking about is ….Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit, Earthborn Wholistic Catch, Wellness Core Puppy, and I’ll look for one more that is beef or turkey based to maintain the variety.

I do, however, have a big bag of Orijen Large Breed Puppy Left (more than I would need to get through the transition). Should I use the Orijen as treats and/or Kong stuffing? Or can I finish off the Orijen bag before I start the transition by feeding something like half Orijen and half balanced canned food that is low in calcium (to offset the Orijen)? I would have to kinda transition to that mixture though. He seems to have a sensitive stomach/GI tract. He has been pooping a lot since on Orijen (4-5 times per day – some firm, some runny) – might be due to the higher fiber content (6%) of Orijen? Also, he has gas and breath that smell like “fish” (weird, cause Orijen is mostly chicken – herring is 4th on the list). Do you know what this means? Thanks again for all the help.

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Can’t figure out how to edit that post… wanted to add that I also ordered 12 cans of Tripett (original green) through Amazon.

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Duke the Boxer, RescueDaneMom and PattyVaughn –

Thanks for responding so quick. I started to try to learn about the various probiotics and enzymes on the supplements thread and just got totally overwhelmed at all the choices (think my brain is full). So I ordered Mercola Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes, since that is what I’ve seen recommended the most here. But I’m going to try the Biostareq Terra Biota K9 and Dr. Langer’s also – sounds like supplements can be just as trial and error as the kibble.

PattyVaughn –

When I cut “back to a couple times a week” – do you mean cut back the probiotics AND the digestives enzymes or cut back probiotics only?

I saw on Mercola’s website where they recommend that you feed the Digestive Enzymes a couple hours after each meal, not at each meal. Is that what I should do or just give it with the meal?

As far as the pumpkin, I will up the dose. He’s 32 lbs now, so that’s 3 tsp pumpkin – is that 3 tsp per meal or per day?

As far as the 20%…. He eats 3 c kibble per day, so adding a 20% topper would mean a little under ¾ cup, right? And that means I should decrease his kibble by 20% to account for the topper, right? (I feel like I’m asking stupid questions, but I need to make sure).

Should the meat be raw or cooked? I use chopped cooked chicken for training treats, but he has never eaten anything raw – I’m worried it will upset his stomach.

Thanks so much to everyone – I finally feel like I’m getting somewhere!!!

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Hi – I’m new here. I was using DFA to problem-solve and evaluate diets for my 5 mo male Weim (Augie) and ended up on this thread. WOW – what a great source of info! I’ve learned a lot and want to thank HDM and all the others who contributed. Here’s my story and my problem. Any advice would really be appreciated… especially would like input from HDM..…

We brought Augie home at 9 wks and he had soft/runny stool. Vet found roundworms and treated them. After the “all clear”, I thought his stool would get better – but it didn’t. Vet checked his stool again and found very high levels of “Clostridium” and a few other bacteria commonly found in dirt (Augie is a compulsive dirt/mud/rock eater – we’re working on it). Vet put him on Metronidozol and Pro-Pectalin for 20 days (2 rounds) – it did not resolve. Then he put him on SMZ (another antibiotic) and a bland diet for 16 days. During that time, his stool got bright yellow and was still runny all the time. He also stopped gaining weight and lost several lbs (was supposed to be 38-42 lbs, but dropped to 27 lbs). I asked about using a Probiotic and canned pumpkin, but vet didn’t want to introduce anything new to his GI tract. We tested his stool again – and finally all the bacteria levels were normal and no worms. BUT his stool was still soft/runny. He also had developed colitis from the constant diarrhea/soft stool. I started giving him 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal and slowly (over 12 days) I transitioned him from Eukanuba Puppy Growth (the breeders kibble) to Orijen Large Breed Puppy. He has now been on 100% Orijen for 11 days and I’m still giving him the pumpkin. His stool has gotten a little better – it’s formed about 75% of the time and soft about 25%. But the last couple days it has had a slick greasy coating on the outside. What does that mean?

Based on what I learned here, I have a new plan (I think). Much of this is new to me (have never used probiotics or enzymes and have never rotated foods). Also, I’m very interested in going raw (commercially made), but I don’t feel confident enough to pull the trigger yet – especially since his bowels have been so messed up for the last 3 months. What do you think of this plan:

1) Get him off Orijen – calcium is too high – did not know that till I saw HDM’s list.
2) Choose 3-4 high protein kibbles from HDM list and plan to rotate at the end of each bag.
3) Make the next food in the rotation a non-chicken, since the Euk and Orijen were both chicken based.
4) Choose a variety of toppers to be used as 20% of each meal. Use a different topper at each meal.
5) Start giving a probiotic and digestive enzymes with every meal
6) Continue 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal
7) Learn more about going raw – would like to start with commercially made and go from there. Maybe start by using a commercial raw (THK, Primal, Darwin’s) as the topper? or is that too hard for a dog to digest (mixing raw with non-raw)?

Do I give a Probiotic and Dig Enzymes at each meal indefinitely – or just during transitions from 1 food to the next?
Do I continue the pumpkin indefinitely?
Should I add fish oil and how much?
He’s up to 32.5 lbs, but still can see hips and ribs a little. What can I do to safely get some weight on him?

I really appreciate what I have learned here and look forward to advice. Thanks!

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