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HoundMusicParticipant
Ok! I understand now. Unfortunetly I believe that Ca and Phos go hand in hand. If the Ca is low the Phos will also be low. I do not believe (but could be wrong) that you can still achieve low Phos levels with calcium appropriate for a small/medium breeds needs for growth. Really sounds like a frustrating problem indeed! What does your vet think?
No, you’re absolutely right – calcium & phosphorous tag along together, and while phos is always lower, if a food has high levels of calcium, it usually has elevated phos, as well. Moderate protein ones will naturally have lower phosphorous, though, so I was hoping to find something along those lines that would have less than the usual puppy formulations. Even talking about it makes me frustrated.
My Vet is absolutely useless. IVDD is epidemic in my breed, even worse in this bloodline, and by now I can recognize its symptoms just by picking a three month old puppy up beneath the front legs. Vet is brushing the hitching off as pano (probably thinks I’m hallucinating), but he’s not the one who’s had Beagles for over 22yrs. For now, I’ve decided to start him on a calcium supplement until I’ve switched foods, and see if that helps…
HoundMusicParticipant@ Susan W
Thanks so much for the Verus recommendation – it looks to be exactly along the lines of what I have been trying to find, at least ingredients wise! Will definitely have to look further into that one.
@ Pitluv
I always thought large breed foods might be the way to go for this problem, but I’m seeing evidence that what these dogs do best on is low to moderate phosphorous levels with higher amounts of calcium – the LB foods I’m seeing have decreased calcium to slow down growth, so IDK anymore if that would help 🙁 That’s why I’ve been so frustrated, here.
@ Inked Marie
You must be tempted to strangle me about now for always taking my sweet time about checking the forums *grin*
The pup in question is the blueticked hellion (a.k.a. Brady) in my avatar, with his breeder @ about 10-11 weeks 🙂 He’s 4 months now, and already making a fine start harassing the rabbits. If you can believe it, I only have one other pic of him giving me a dirty look after being taken home from the airport. Probably need some incentive to take more 😉
HoundMusicParticipantHave you been feeding PMR levels of liver (5%)? If so, did your vet offer an explanation of how your dog might have a Vitamin D deficiency?
They get at least 5% organ meats, if not slightly more, and most of that is beef liver. I also feed egg yolks for Vit D., and occasionally give unsalted butter for that, iodine & Omega 3.
The raw, prey model diet, however, does not take into account daily nutritional requirements of dogs, but utilizes a “balance over time” method – so if any deficiency was present, balancing a diet over time and not on a daily basis would likely contribute to the already low levels of Vit. D, which, if allowed to continue with Toby not meeting the requirement for his vitamins on a daily basis, would eventually lead to osteomalacia. My Vet did not have to offer that explanation. I think it’s obvious.
HoundMusicParticipantIf you’ve been feeding Prey Model Raw levels of liver (5%) I’d suspect the cause of the Osteomalacia was due to an imbalance in calcium to phosphorus levels in the diet, as opposed to insufficient Vitamin D.
There is no doubt about what mineral imbalances are present, because the blood chemistry panel tests for everything. Both his levels of calcium & phosphorous were normal (Ca 9.2 & Phos 4.1), while he displayed no signs whatsoever of liver problems, which is what low ALP usually indicates. So by process of elimination, it was determined that his vitamin D levels were lacking. I have no reason to disbelieve the Vet, and my own research is only confirming what he told me.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by HoundMusic.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by HoundMusic.
HoundMusicParticipantThank you for sharing. Your story could be helpful to other raw/homemade feeders. Of course he decided to show symptoms on a Holiday! That’s what they do. Lol!
Ha! It’s a tradition in my household that dogs will get sick, specifically on Labor Day. My first Beagle, and two others aside from Toby, all needed emergency Vet treatment on that holiday. Not even joking.
But in all seriousness, you could have knocked me over with the ghost of a feather when the Vet said rickets. I am no raw novice and thought myself more Vit. D conscientious than that. I give raw yolks and butter along with bones specifically for the Vit. D content, and still, this happened, so I am hoping other raw feeders will read this and double check their diet plans…
ETA: Also wanted to add that I was giving cod liver oil way back when I began raw feeding, and it seems I’ll have to start doing that again, if my other sources aren’t providing enough.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by HoundMusic.
HoundMusicParticipantPoor Toby. He’s 11? Wow. hey, can I call you by your first name here? Seems weird to say HoundMusic LOL
Of all the things imaginable… ugh.
Toby will be 11 in October – he’s a full littermate to Friar Tuck and out of my first litter, if you can believe that 🙂 He seems to be none the worse for wear, tho, it’s just me that got the shock.
If we can’t be on a first name basis after all these years (lol) then IDK what this world is coming to.
September 5, 2016 at 11:09 pm in reply to: Kibble good for yeast infections and other skin issues? #89624 Report AbuseHoundMusicParticipantThe amount of carbs, grains, sugars, etc in the diet have nothing to do with yeast growth on skin. If your dog has a food hypersensitivity reaction (allergy) to an ingredient in the diet the adverse reaction can alter the skin and allow yeast to grow.
That is absolutely untrue. Yeast feeds off simple sugars and certain types of complex carbohydrates, and an overgrowth will often take the form of a skin rash.
August 28, 2016 at 10:28 pm in reply to: Food Help – Starting to get VERY Confused… #89485 Report AbuseHoundMusicParticipantI’ve been breeding Beagles for about eleven years now, and never had good results with “holistic” food. Sometimes, there can be simply too many ingredients that have no use for the dog, but are on the label more to make the owner feel like Brand A is so superior to brand B. A great deal of the ingredient bashing came from rival dog food companies, and spread across the internet like wildfire.
Personally, I don’t feel comfortable giving my dogs a food that has zero research & development behind it, with nothing more to recommend it than a fancy ingredient label. Merrick, Wellness, Canidae, Timberwolf Organics (etc. ad infinitum) were disasters on steroids. I caused a plethora of problems with these top dollar, supposedly high end diets, that it’s just unimaginable.
JMHO, but forget grain free altogether. It’s a marketing gimmick if I ever saw one. Some grains, like brown rice and oats, are extremely well tolerated by dogs and have the added benefits of high nutritional value and blood sugar regulation. The potatoes or other starchy foods used in grain free often *increase* the carbohydrate level in a dog food, and many spike the blood sugar, which will inevitably lead to a crash. Enough of that can cause real health problems. I have seen this. Firsthand.
I might also humbly suggest finding a “mid-grade” feed with a more limited ingredient list. You can always supplement a small portion of the diet with fresh meats if you want variety, but a dog food shouldn’t have the kitchen sink thrown in. Those types are VERY rough on the digestive system. And after feeding holistic foods to probably somewhere around 30 adult dogs in just under two decades, I can’t say I was impressed with how any of those dogs did on designer brands.
BTW; you mentioned your pup was doing well on SD. While far from my favorite brand, if he was doing better on that then Acana, then which one, for that dog, was the garbage food?
- This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by HoundMusic.
HoundMusicParticipantWould you be willing to offer a raw knuckle bone? Those, IMO, do WAY better than CET chews for teeth
Knuckle bones are a great way to fracture teeth, especially in small/medium breeds. Just with pork necks on 25lb (ish) dogs was enough to break molars, and cause a stress crack in the front canine of a 65lb Shepherd mix. I remember about 15-16 years ago, when raw was called “BARF”, some owners used to feed knuckle or marrow bones as recreational bones, and they soon developed the nickname “wreck bones”, for all the damage they did to teeth.
HoundMusicParticipantIt might be the protein levels in the food are too high. Phosphorous is a mineral that “tags along” with protein – i.e., the higher the protein levels in a feed, the higher the phos. will be. And if that is the case, it could be affecting the dog’s kidney function, which is a major cause of inexplicably bad teeth in young dogs.
Some dogs do naturally have a tendency to build up tartar, but there is plenty that can be done with diet to prevent it. Try a lower protein feed or one that specifically has been formulated for dental health. Several years ago, I had to put an older dog on Science Diet Oral Care, because at 2yrs old, her teeth were practically rotting out of her mouth after whelping a litter. Still don’t know the underlying cause for it, but I gave her the kibble pieces as treats, and it did help. I don’t care for the SD brand and wouldn’t recommend it, but there are certainly other brands that do make similar foods.
And just as an aside, in a bad case, the “bumpy” Nylabones and rawhides might also be of some help.
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