RAW Diet – gas and eating poop

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  • #12229

    marmaduke
    Participant

    We have been following the Going RAWR dog food diet for awhile now and our 2 Golden Retreivers will NOT stop eating their (and our 10 year old Lab/Border Collie Mix’s) own and each other’s poop and one of the Golden’s has gas constantly.

    They are just over a year now and we have had them on the RAWR diet since they were approx. 4 months old.

    We feed them ground raw chicken for dogs from our local butcher and a recipe for a vegetable/fruit slop and raw chicken hearts or liver.

    The veggie/fruit slop contains: romaine lettuce, celery, beets, carrots, squash, bananas, oranges, apples, pineapple, kelp powder, whole eggs (including the shell) and plain yogurt.

    Their daily meals are:

    Morning – 1cup raw chicken meat, 1/2cup veggie slop, 2 raw chicken hearts or liver.
    Evening – same as above.

    ANY suggestions on how to cure the poop eating behaviour or the gas, I would certainly appreciate it!!

    I am even considering going back to a dry kibble…tried several “premium” brands (Acana, Fromm) and found them to be gassy on them as well…maybe they were too rich?

    Thanks

    #12230

    marmaduke
    Participant

    forgot to mention that i also add approx. a tablespoon of Flaxseed Oil to their food each meal as well and 400mg of glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM in a 500/400/400mg tablet.

    #12232

    Hound Dog Mom
    Participant

    Hi Marmaduke –

    The first thing I would recommend is having the dog checked by the vet – occasionally stool eating can be due to intestinal malabsorption or intestinal parasites. If medical causes are ruled out I’d supplement with a quality enzyme and probiotic supplement. Some dogs don’t secrete enough enzymes naturally so they consume feces because feces are rich in enzymes – although enzyme deficiencies are more common when dogs are on processed food diets. Enzymes can help with gas as well. You could look into a supplemental stool eating deterrent – but check the label as most contain MSG. The other thing I wanted to point out is that you should not be feeding only chicken – this is not enough variety and your dogs will not be getting all the nutrients they need. Ideally, an even mix of red meat and poultry should be fed. At the very least I’d recommend alternating chicken with beef but the more different meats you can feed the better. While flax is a good addition to poultry based meals, you need an animal-based omega 3 as dogs don’t convert plant-based omega 3’s to DHA very efficiently. Lastly you need to add some vitamin e – this diet provides no vitamin e. Hope that helps!

    #12234

    pugmomsandy
    Participant

    More probiotics and digestive enzymes and maybe your butcher can get you some green tripe.

    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-stink-on-tripe/

    #12239

    Hi Marmaduke,

    You may want to check out this video posted by Dr. Karen Becker for some answers to your dog’s problem. Hope this helps.

    #12254

    marmaduke
    Participant

    Ok, did some research and I do beleive that the lack of digestive enzymes is probably the main cause of the gas and stool munching. :P I have seen some undigested “slop” in their stools as well, which leads me to beleive that they are not processing their food completely.

    I have sourced some green tripe from a local butcher who kills beef…I can purchase 20lbs for $10…I cannot find how much to give them per feeding though…the only thing I have been able to find is an approximation of 5-10% of their protein weight per serving. Any thoughts or suggestion on how much green tripe to feed them? Also, is there any trick to preparing the tripe?

    There are a couple of products on the market that I have found that are enzyme supplements…Dr. Mercola Digestive Enzymes and another is Prozyme All Natural Enzyme Suupplement. The 1st seems like it is more animal based (Betaine HCl, Ox Bile Extract, Bromelain (pineapple), Papain (papaya), Pancreatin which includes Protease, Mylase and Lipase) and the 2nd is plant based looking at the ingredients (Lactose, Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product dehydrated, Aspergillus niger fermentation product, dehydrated, pineapples (stem,fruit).

    We do include Pineapple in their “slop” mixture, but I guess it does not fully constitute the lack of digestive enzymes that they need.

    Thoughts?

    #12255

    Hound Dog Mom
    Participant

    Marmaduke –

    Are you cooking the fruit/veggie mix? Dogs don’t produce cellulase (the enzyme required to digest the cellulose in the plant material) so fruits/vegetables should be cooked and pureed in order to break down the cellulose. There’s no trick to preparing green tripe, you jut feed it. Tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 so you can feed as much as you want. I think feeding your chicken mix as one meal and tripe as the other would be a good idea.

    #12258

    marmaduke
    Participant

    We are NOT cooking the veggie/fruit mixture….the RAWR diet book that we have been following does not say to cook the mixture…we do puree it in a food processor though.

    I can also get a beef dog food mix from the same butcher as the green tripe…I beleive it is a mixture of beef “parts”…

    Can the chicken and beef be mixed together? Right now they get 1 cup of chicken per serving twice a day…can we do 1/2 cup f the beef and 1/2 cup of the chicken or would that be a cross contamination? Would it be better to feed a serving of chicken and a serving of beef?

    Thanks

    #12261

    Hound Dog Mom
    Participant

    There’s no reason you can’t mix proteins. However I prefer to serve only one protein at each meal, then the dogs aren’t getting exposed to the same ingredients at every meal and their bodies can have a break from certain foods.

    #12342

    marmaduke
    Participant

    What do you feed for an animal based Omega 3 and vitamin E supplement? I was going to give the boys an Omega 3 fish oil with vitamin E gel cap with their meals…how much to give them? I have read that for a 50lb dog, approx. 400-500 UI or 350mg per day…

    Also, what do you give for fish as a protein instead of chicken?

    Thanks

    #12350

    pugmomsandy
    Participant

    Marmaduke,

    I give krill oil capsule or a raw whole sardine.

    HoundDogMom has the E dosage in the Raw Menus thread I think.

    #12406

    Hound Dog Mom
    Participant

    Marmaduke –

    I give my dogs 1 tsp. of an animal based omega 3 (sardine oil or anchovy oil generally) and 1 tsp. of a plant based fat (flax, evening primrose, borage or sometimes sprouted chia or coconut oil). I split 2-400 i.u. vitamin e capsules between the three of them – so that would be about 267 i.u. each per day. For a large dog anywhere between 100 and 400 i.u. per day should be adequate, however I wouldn’t go over 400 i.u. per day. I have large dogs, since you have golden retrievers that are probably around the same size as mine these doses should be fine for your dogs.

    #12432

    marmaduke
    Participant

    Thanks Hound Dog Mom!!

    I have sourced frozen beef offal (liver, kidneys, heart liver etc.) from a local butcher and he said that he will save me the beef necks from his kill days, I have also ordered the Dr. Mercola Digestive Enzymes for Pets (until I can get some fresh or frozen green tripe) and have started the boys on the Carlson’s Very Finest Fish Oil and a Vitamin E supplement @ 400UI per day, I have also sourced frozen raw chicken backs, necks and pkgs of chicken hearts, gizzards, liver…based on my previous menu with the veggie/fruit slop and the ground raw chicken with bones…what would you suggest for a menu? Do you buy ground beef and fish from the grocery store?

    Does the beef offal on it’s own provide enough protein or does it have to be mixed with a meat source?

    I live in Ontario Canada so the products like Darwin’s Naturals are pretty much out of the question as they are only in the States…

    I really want to keep my Goldens on a RAW diet as I feel it is a much healthier diet for them compared to the store bought kibbles and even the “premium” brands providing I can provide them with the nutrition they require to be a healthy happy animal (they are pretty healthy and happy now, but I worry about not feeding them correctly)…

    Thanks for all your advice…

    Duke

    #12436

    Hound Dog Mom
    Participant

    Hi Marmaduke –

    I love Carlson’s products – I think they make some of the highest quality fish oils. I give my dogs their cod liver oil a few times a week for extra vitamin d – I wouldn’t feed most cod liver oils due to excessive vitamin a and Carlson’s is the only one I’ve found without excessive levels.

    I get my meat from several sources. I do buy meat from the grocery store on occasion (Be VERY careful with buying fish – depending on the type of fish and where it came from it could have salmon poisoning. I personally don’t feed raw fish very often – occasionally raw sardines, but that’s it.), I occasionally order from hare-today.com and mypetcarnivore.com (I can get a lot of difficult to find offal from these places), I get unwanted parts (usually offal and bones) from hunters (I actually got my dad to give me a whole deer this year ;) ) – but mostly I get meat delivered from a wholesale distributor. I order shipments of 300 lbs. at a time from a wholesaler that also sells to grocery stores, restaurants and caters to large dog kennels – I can get a lot of the stuff I need (chicken backs, turkey necks, hearts, gizzards, livers, ground beef, etc.) for about half of what I’d pay in the grocery store. The only downside to buying in bulk is everything just comes in huge 40 lb. boxes – I have to divide it all up myself, but it’s worth it considering how much money I save.

    To answer your question about offal – offal i very high in protein, about the same amount if not more than muscle meat. Organ meat should only constitute 10% of your dogs’ diet – 5% should be liver and 5% should be other offal. Organ meat is VERY nutrient-dense – it’s necessary to feed in order to provide adequate amounts of certain vitamins and minerals but it’s easy to go overboard. Many of the vitamins and minerals found in organ meat, while necessary in small amounts, can be toxic if fed in large amounts. For example, liver is extremely high in vitamin a – vitamin a is a fat soluble vitamin so extremely high levels fed over an extended period of time can cause toxicity. Remember green tripe, heart and gizzards are NOT organ meat – a lot of people think these things are organ meat, but they’re not and the amount fed of these things doesn’t have to be restricted (like it does with true organ meat). The things that would count toward your dogs’ 10% organ meat would be: liver, kidneys, lungs, pancreas, spleen and brain.

    I wouldn’t be too upset that you can’t get Darwin’s or other pre-made raw foods – homemade is much higher quality, more customizable and you can feed more variety. It is time-consuming to make food from scratch, but I’ve gotten to where I think it’s fun to formulate new menus – I would get bored feeding pre-made. If you check out this link you’ll be able to see some typical menus for my crew of three bloodhounds:

    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/menus/

    #12437

    Hound Dog Mom
    Participant

    Hi Marmaduke –

    I just sat and typed a nice long response answering your questions, posted it and it disappeared (so if a duplicate response shows up later that’s why). :(

    So here it goes again…

    I get my meat from several sources. I occasionally buy meat from the grocery store, I order some hard to source items (such as certain organs and green tripe) from Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore, I get unwanted meat (usually bone and organs) from hunters (my dad actually gave me a whole deer this year!) – but most of my meat comes from a wholesale distributor that supplies restaurants, grocery stores and large dog kennels. I have to order from the distributor in 300 lb. shipments but it’s worth it – I pay about half the price I’d pay at the grocery store. As for fish – be very careful! Certain types of fish can carry a parasite that causes salmon poisoning in dogs if the fish is fed raw (and no, it’s not just salmon that can carry this parasite). I rarely feed raw fish, occasionally I’ll feed raw sardines because I know they’re a safe fish but that’s about it.

    To answer your question about organ meat – organ meat is as high, if not higher in protein than muscle meat. However, organ meat should only make up 10% of your dogs’ diet – 5% should be liver and 5% should be other organs. Organ meat is extremely nutrient-dense – it’s necessary to include in the dogs’ diet to supply certain vitamins and minerals, but the levels are so high that too much organ meat can be toxic. Keep in mind – green tripe, gizzards and heart are NOT organ meat (some people make the mistake of thinking they are, so I wanted to clarify to make sure you understood) and can be fed as muscle meat. Organ meat would include: liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, lungs and brain.

    I wouldn’t feel too bad about not being able to get pre-made raw – I think homemade is much higher quality and you’re able to feed more variety and have better control over the ingredients. Formulating menus – while time consuming – has actually gotten fun for me, I think I’d get bored feeding pre-made! Here’s a link to some typical menus that I’d serve to my crew of three bloodhounds:

    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/menus/

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