[Akari_32]

As a member of Purina For Professionals, I was cruising the site out of curiosity and checking out the prices that I can get different foods for, for the giggles. Well, I clicked on the JM and was actually surprised at how good it looks compared to the other VD. Four of the first six ingredients are animal proteins, and it meets the low-fat requirements that Ginger needs, but has that higher protein I like to see.

https://www.purinaforprofessionals.com/canine-jm-joint-mobilityr

She’s always limping around, and has been favoring one her shoulders and been reluctant to get on and off the bed lately (she has doggy stairs). She’s on about 350 mg of glucosamine a day, but it’s not really helping much, and she’s really nasty when she’s in pain. I’m to the point now where if something helps her, I want to use it. This is a pretty decent looking food, and the reviews on it say it does help with their dogs joints.

Since the clinic I was at when I got my membership is closed now, I’m going to email and rep and make sure I can use another clinic’s prescription. She’s cool, so I don’t think it’ll be a problem, seeing as the food is delivered to my door, and not the clinics anyways.

If I’m able to use another vets script, do you guys it would be a good choice? You all know I’m not particularly a Purina fan, but I’m really to the point where I’m grasping at straws to affordably keep this dog pain-free, diarrhea-free, and mobile. She may be 14, but she’s got so much spunk left him her, I just want to do whats right by her. I’m still unsure if I would use just this, or if I would rotate it ever other bag. Still haven’t quite figured out how she does on rotation now that I’ve taken all the canned out of her diet and reduced her fat intake. Thats the next step.

I’m unsure if the shopping part of the site is just for logged-in members or not, so please let me know if that link doesn’t work, and I’ll just copy/paste everything here.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Akari:
I can’t get onto the sight to check it out.

At 14 rotating her food would be the last thing I would be concerned with. Finding a diet that agrees with her and sticking with it would be my priority. I hope you get her to a Vet soon for a check-up; sounds like she is uncomfortable and might need prescribed medication.

I don’t know of anyone who has used this for their dogs. However, I have read reviews from owners who have tried various over the counter supplements and foods without any improvements who fed this food with good results.

[Akari_32]

I thought so. Here’s the ingredients list:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/94ECE872-B7BA-4635-9E5E-881C063BED8F_zps8ulniyc0.png

And the GA:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/A083CE42-D2DF-4D5E-AC95-4297EAA61FA0_zpsa9aylmxv.png

I haven’t quite decided if I’ll rotate or not. It would let me take advantage of deals, but it could screw her stomach all up. However, taking canned out of her diet has made her really great in the tummy-department. She’s on Wellness Simple Small Breed Salmon and Potato right now. I’m actually not sure what the fat is on that, but I know the protein is low.

I’m in the home stretch of finals week, so once it’s over, I’ll actually have time to do things. Getting her to the vet is at the top of my list. I was up until 6 in the morning the other night doing homework and studying for exams. Work then proceeded to schedule me 12:30 to 10 that day. 8 hours of homework, 5 hours of sleep, and 9 and a half hours of cashiering makes for a terrible two days @.@ One final left and I have my Tuesday’s and Thursdays to myself again!

She’s been good until it’s started getting cold off and on and having no idea what it wants to do. The cold makes her spunky, she runs around like a lunatic on the tile floor, and the activity makes her sore.

I’ve emailed the rep. Just waiting to hear back from her. If I can use another vets script, I can get a 6 lb bag for $10.22, plus whatever shipping is. I think I’d do two bags at a time, since orders can only be placed once a month.

[Bobby dog]

Yes, the end of a semester is both a blessing and a curse! 😉

If my dog was ill I would think outside of the box and certainly try different approaches to ease pain and discomfort. An Rx food would not be out of the question and I have fed them in the past! I really can’t comment on this food other than the reviews I read about it. BTW, the comments I read weren’t from the Purina website. lol I was looking into some supplements for my friend’s dog that has been a little stiff.

Deals are wonderful, but you need to consider Ginger’s health and comfort. Senior pet care can be pricey. My senior horse’s supplements are almost triple the price of my younger horse’s. That’s a decent price for Rx food IMO.

[Akari_32]

I know! I’m finishing off my last final right now. Playing through one of the online lectures, and waiting for him to talk about something I care about LOL

Thats why I want to try this food. If I can avoid having to drug her up, which comes with its monetary and health issues, that would be great.

Oh I know. Pricey just isn’t an option right at this moment -_-‘ I can get this stuff at half price (retail is $20-something!!) if the rep says its ok to use another vets script. That would help with the cost aspect, and this time of year, I need all the help I can get.

[InkedMarie]

I wouldn’t feed that at all. Brewers rice and the first ingredient? Corn gluten meal? Animal digest? These are the makings of a crap food. There are many supplements & drugs to use for joint issues. Grains are inflammatory, making this a poor choice.

[theBCnut]

This food will not keep her pain free. It may or may not help keep her mobile. I personally wouldn’t feed it. Too many garbage ingredients for what good you are supposed to get out of it.

[aimee]

Hi Akari,

I found this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22805303 in which significant improvement was demonstrated through the use of a veterinary joint support diet. This study was double blinded and placebo controlled and used force plate analysis to measure the amount of weight the dog was willing to bear on the limb, so I do think joint diets have a place in managing arthritis. I can’t tell from the abstract which company’s product was used, but I don’t think it was Hills as their Omega 3 looks to be more ALA based.

I wouldn’t rotate the diet unless to one of similar EPA/DHA content and Omega 6/3 ratio otherwise I’d think the benefits would be lost. It takes time ( 6 weeks???) to incorporate the fatty acids into the cells and if you change off you may switch before any benefit would be seen.

With a Omega 6:3 ratio of 1.7:1 it may be difficult achieve that with supplementation of a standard diet. If your vet thinks it is appropriate I’d most definitely give this diet a trial of at least 3 months. It has a nice nutrient profile and nice ingredient line up!

[Akari_32]

I’m not looking at just the main ingredients. Yes, I think Brewers rice and corn gluten meal aren’t quality ingredients, but looking at the bigger picture, there’s a good amount of animal protein in the food, and elevated levels of omega, glucosamine and antioxidants that I could not achieve on my own. Patty, you’ve said yourself quality comes second, and using what works for each dog is the priority. I’m not looking for “this food has a couple questionable ingredients, it’s absolute garbarge,” I’m looking for objective replies on if this food does or does not do what it’s supposed to do. I know how to pick quality dog foods, but I’m really just beyond that at this point with Ginger. The poor thing needs something more than I’m doing right now, and I’m grasping for straws at this point.

I can’t afford to spend any more on supliments (and dog food) than I’m already spending, and if I dump anymore glucosamine pills on this dogs 1/2 cup of food, she’s going to think I’m nuts. It’s bitter and she hates it. That said, if there is a commercial, non-prescription food that doesn’t charge out the nose and does what this is supposed to do, by all means, suggest away. I’m looking at $15 a bag without coupons, or including shipping.

Btw, have you two *seen*, say, Hill’s joint food? Now *that* is nasty stuff. Purina looks like it’s made of gold compared to Hill’s. Just saying.

And Aimee, thank you for the link. I wish I knew half of what they were saying! Seems like products like this do actually work, or at least help, though.

Bobby Dog and Aimee, you’re right about rotating. I forget how long it takes to see results with joint supliments lol I hate to keep her one food, but I think minimal switching around is best. Once I find something for her I like, I will have to just keep her on it.

[Akari_32]

The Purina rep got back with me and said I could use another vets prescription on P4P.

I’m wondering, she’s had bladder problems in the past, before I got her, and it’s said glucosamine is also good for bladder health. If I do decide on this diet, should I continue to add glucosamine to her meals? Any that isn’t used is pee’d out, and I know it doesn’t hurt anything using it when the body doesn’t need it, but I don’t want to use it if it’s not necessary, more for money reasons than anything else.

Classes are done with for the semester, so I’ve got a few days a week to myself again for the time being. I’ll be making her an appointment at the vet for sometime next week.

[theBCnut]

I wouldn’t just so you know whether the food is any help.

[Akari_32]

True enough.

I just realized the glucosamine values never made it up here. I’ll fix that… According to the site, it’s 119 mg of glucosamine per cup of food. Plus all that other stuff (vitamins E and C, and Omegas 3 and 6).

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/089CB3EA-9F7C-4013-949B-6657588BA4CE_zpsvhsotvu5.png

I’m also looking at Health Extensions Lite and Health Extensions Little Bites. Both list glucosamine and chondroiton in their ingredient lists. I emailed the company and asked for the mg per cup so I could compare it with the JM. The biggest difference I can see just between the two Health Extensions foods is the Lite only has 9% fat (and 380-something kcal/cup) and the other one has 12% fat (and 400-something kcal/cup). Makes me thing the glucosamine and chondroiton will probably be close, if not the same.

[theBCnut]

Um, what is considered a therapeutic dose of glucosamine for your dog? Does this food come close? I’ve read that the reason joint support foods are a waste of money is because they do NOT even have a therapeutic dose, so in the end, you do have to still add a joint supplement. That’s OK if you get the food at a good price and you like how your dog does on the food, but not OK at all if you have to pay more for it and then add a supplement, especially if your dog isn’t doing remarkable on it.

[Akari_32]

It’s 20 mg per pound, I think. She weighs 11.2 pounds as of last night. This food isn’t a full therapeutic dose for her, especially because she doesn’t eat very much, about a half cup, but I think the comination of all the food has to offer (anti-inflammatories, omegas and glucosamine) should counter that and do the trick. I’ve been looking at reviews for the food and haven’t found one yet that says that the food doesn’t help their dog, and with the price, anyone disappointed with it would be highly likely to make a huge fuss all over the internet.

I’m still wating to hear from Health Extensions on the two formulas I asked about, and I also found a mid-grade looking grocery store brand, Publix Premium, that has glucosamine in it (compares itself to Pro Plan), but I haven’t calculated how much glucosamine it has in it, yet. It’s also $10 for a 6 pound bag. At that point, I think i’d rather go with the Purina JM, for the sake of not going with a grocery store brand, plus the added benefits the JM has to offer (or says it offers, anyways).

[Akari_32]

This is the response I got back from Health Extensions:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/8A7F98F8-378C-497A-829D-8DD016BC3FB0_zps7gsrsdrd.png

It doesn’t make much sence to me, however, the Publix Premium brand has 500 mg/kg, so for the price between these two, and as far as joint support goes, the Publix Premium would be the way to go. However, it’s not the most fantastic looking ingredient wise, with by-products as the second or so ingredient. It’s looking like the PVD JM is going to be the way to go, if I can’t find something else. Still unsure on that front. I will be making an appointment at the vet Thursday, money and time permitting.

[Dori]

Hi Akari. Sorry, I don’t know how I missed this entire thread other than to say life gets crazy around the holidays.

You mentioned that Ginger weighs 11.2 lbs. Has you vet told you what her optimum weight should be? It is very very important to keep dogs that have musculoskeletal problems on the thin and trim side. Every added ounce overweight adds to their pain and discomfort.

But this is really what I wanted to tell you. You say that you are dumping the glucosamine/chondroitin in her food. Glucosamine/Chondroitin should never be given with food. It most definitely needs to be given either one hour before food or two hours after. Otherwise it WILL NOT WORK! That is one of the main reasons why foods that are marketed as being good for dogs with arthritis and contain glucosamine/chondroitin don’t work. They also don’t put enough in to be beneficial but even if they did, the supplement must be given one hour before meals or two hours after twice a day or more often if indicated. That could very well be the reason you are not seeing any improvement with Ginger even though you are giving her the supplement.

Just trying to help.

If you do decide to go with the Purina JM you still need to give the supplement one hour before her meals or two hours after. I don’t have an opinion on the food. Obviously you know it’s not a great food by anyone’s definition but you have financial constraints and are doing the best your pocket book will allow. She’s a senior dog that you don’t have a lot of history about. If you can find one single food that she does well on, give her the supplement the way it is suppose to be given, then I would do that for the remainder of her life. The object is to find some quality to her life. It’s not about how many years you can add to her life, the concern is how well she gets to live the time she has left in her life. She obviously has musculoskeletal issues, she’s had them since you got her and since there’s no way to really know what happened to her before you got her to know what exactly is wrong with her or to do expensive CT scans, X-rays, MRI’s, surgeries, if they are indeed called for, you do the best you can through a food that doesn’t upset her digestive system and give her supplements. My advice to you would be, for right now, to keep her on the Wellness that you are feeding her before you switch her food since her tummy seems to be doing better and start the supplement as it’s suppose to be given and see it it makes a difference. I think it will. Another supplement that you can give her, if money allows you to, is Sam-e. Though it’s marketed as a liver support supplement it is a great anti-inflammatory. You would still need to give her the glucosamin/chondroitin. Sorry my post is so long I was just upset with myself for not noticing your thread on this issue and just happened to catch the sentence where you mention putting the supplement in her food bow.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Dori.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Just on the topic of glucosamine, I used to give Lily her supplement right after dinner, but after reading something Dori posted a while back I moved it to 1-2 hours afterward. Is that enough? Also, is it possible to overdose in anything they put in the supplement? I sometimes miss a day, and I’m wondering if I should give double the next day.

Edit: Just checked and the serving size for a 1-10 pound dog, which is what Lily gets, contains 350mg Glucosamine HCL, 125mg MSM, 50mg “Tart cherry and dark berry proprietary blend,” 6,000mg Linolenic acid omega 3(flaxseed), and 1,300 Linolenic acid omega 6(flaxseed).

• This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Dog_Obsessed.

[Akari_32]

Dori, she should probably weigh about 12 pounds, so with her joint problems, I’d say she’s about good where she is now. I can see her ribs when she bends, so she’s not scrawny, but not quite at an “ideal” weight either.

I have tried giving her the glucosamine with out food, but because it’s a capsule, with everything powdered inside, she spits it out as soon as it breaks open and looks at me like in trying to kill her. This is the same dog that is on a wrapper that falls on the floor in half a second flat and tries to run off with her prize. So I figure over the food is better than nothing, especially since it’s about twice as much as she “needs”. I have seen an improvement since starting her on it, but she needs some anti-inflammatories or something, I think.

She’s doing good on the wellness simple small breed salmon, btw. No more messes in her cage at night since removing canned food from her diet! Yay! I feel like I have only dog ever that can’t eat canned food LOL

Yes, I’m just trying to do right by her. If she decides to live for another 5 years, then I’ll do what I can do to keep her comfortable and moving. If she decides she’s had enough next week (though I hope to God not! She’s my baby lol), then so be it. We took a walk this morning since it was warm enough for her to tolerate, and she loved every minute of it, and did her wiener dog run for a good quarter of it :p She was feeling it by the time we got home, though, limping on all four legs up the drive way and to the door. Poor thing lol

Don’t worry about how long your post is! I need help with this joint drama dog. I’m open to all sides of the situation :3

[Dori]

Hi Dog Obsessed. As I stated earlier to Akari, Glucosamine/chontroitin can be given one hour before meals or two hours after a meal. Not one hour after a meal. Also, I give Hannah her Glucosamin/Chondroitin twice a day. Denamarin only once a day sometime mid day (at least a couple of hours after breakfast) but you can give it in the evenings at least a couple of hours after dinner. Doesn’t make any difference. Try not to miss any doses, it does make a difference.

Akari. There are really very good glucosamine/chondroitin supplements that are chewable and also Denamarin chewables. There’s no way that I could get Hannah to eat a supplement without food that wasn’t a chewable. If you need any suggestions I can give you a list of the glucosamine/chondroitins that I give Hannah. As the the Denamarin, I buy the chewable type. I look on line for the list expensive site and that’s where I buy it. Denamarin is the brand name and that’s the one I use. Let me know if you need suggestions on the Glucosamine/Chondroitin.

Akari. As far as weight is concerned, Hannah’s ideal weight would be 8 lbs. for her size and height and age. I keep her at 7.3 lbs. as best I can. If she weighs more than that then she starts having a bit more of trembling in her back legs and a bit of a limp. At the 7.3 lbs. her legs do not tremble and she doesn’t limp. Weight is a big issue for the arthritic be they animals or humans.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Dori.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Dori.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Thanks Dori! It is usually about 2 hours after her dinner, but sometimes I do it earlier. I won’t from now on. What about the stuff in the supplement, is it dangerous to overdose it? I posted the active ingredients above.

[Dori]

Dog Obsessed. I’ve been giving Hannah glucosamine/chondroitin for a number of years twice a day two hours after both her meals. I give her her Denamarin (both for her liver and as an anti-inflammatory) one to one and a half hours BEFORE her p.m. meal. A number of months back I started adding a glucosamine/chondroitin at bedtime since I knew she hadn’t had anything to eat in a number of hours. I don’t give any treats of any sort after 9:00 pm (I feel their guts need a little resting time instead of constantly having to digest food). She’s been doing very well with three times a day. If you’re only giving once a day then you can start on the twice a day and see how your dog does. If you’re going to add the bed time one then I would wait on that one for a while to make sure your dog isn’t getting loose stools or diarrhea. I introduce supplements very slowly and once I realize they’re doing well, then I up the supplements. And so on and so on.

[Akari_32]

Vet appointment at 1:30 today! I have a list of things to go over with him. Mouth, ears (she’s been bothering them lately), and joints.

On a slightly related note, the vet I got Ginger from and that I was interning for will be back in business soon! Yay! I just wish these problems could have waited for him lol It’s so much easier to keep a dog at a vet that they know. A fresh mind is always good though.

[Bobby dog]

Hey Akari, now you can get Ginger’s medical history from him. Good luck at the Vet’s today. 😉

[Akari_32]

I’ve looked at it before. The vet that owned the practice before he did was terrible at keeping records. All he had in there was a nail trim back in 2011 or something. Then the vet I was working with only started seeing her this year, just before I got her, for a bladder infection. It’s best to just assume we have no idea, because we really just don’t lol

[Akari_32]

Alright! Back from the vet. Since this thread is for joint stuff, I’ll just stick with that. We talked some about what could be done for her joints, and talked about what I was doing now for her and how she was doing on that, but that I thought she could be doing better, and he said he wouldn’t mind seeing her on a prescription joint diet. He tried to get me to do Hill’s (what he stocks), but I told him I had a membership with P4P and that it would be much cheaper to do Purina. I refrained from telling him the Hill’s looks absolutely disgusting lol anyways, we have a prescription for the JM, and we will order some soon. Hopefully it helps. I did, however, neglect to see if I needed a new prescription for every order… Oh well, I’m going to order two bags each time anyways lol

Thanks guys for all your help! I will let you know how this stuff works. If it doesn’t work as well as I’d like, it gives me time to price shop for those supliments while it gets used up. But with money and schedule both tight and unpredictable, I hope this does the trick. The easier the better, for sure.

[InkedMarie]

Curious about the glucosamine, Dori. Gemma gets a liquid glucosamine which has to go in her food, no other way for her to eat it.

[Akari_32]

That reminds me! The vet said how I was giving Ginger her glucosamine over her food was fine. So now I’m not really sure what to think lol

[Dori]

Yes there is Marie. If you have access to a syringe which is incredibly easy to purchase. Then she’ll get full benefit from you’re putting in a syringe and feed it to her that way.

[Dori]

Akari. I hear what your vet is saying because that is probably the easiest way for people to give their pets meds, but to get the most benefit from this particular med is on an empty stomach.

[InkedMarie]

Heh, you gotta come meetnGemma, Dori. She may not have any teeth but her jaw is like a vice grip.

[Dog_Obsessed]

@Dori Thanks! Are you saying we should double the supplement or give half twice a day? I took Lily to the vet today, and we talked about things that have relevance on about three different threads. I will post about it either on the Clicker thread or start a new one.

[Dori]

Dog Obsessed. You double the dose. One dose one hour before or two hours after each meal.

[Dori]

Marie. Even them Gemma keeps her jaw shut tight is it possible to slip the syringe in by pulling her upper lip open toward the side and gently squeeze it in. Any liquid meds and supplements that I’ve ever given I did that way then just held their mouth shut for the second it took for them to swallow. Worked every time with every dog that I had to do this with. Marie how many cc’s or how much liquid supplement do you give Gemma?

[Dog_Obsessed]

Thanks Dori!

[InkedMarie]

Dori,
She gets 2 tsp’s in the morning & 1 tsp in the afternoon.

[Dori]

Marie, that’s a small enough amount for a syringe to go just inside her cheek, hold her mouth shut for the second it takes her to swallow. Anyway, that’s how I’ve always given any liquid meds in syringe that had to be given away from food. Try it and see how it goes.

[Akari_32]

Ok guys, I have the stuff on order. Should be here tomorrow. She’s not fully on the Wellness Toy Breed Healthy Weight yet, she’s still about 1/2 and 1/2 with the Wellness Simple. So once she’s done with this bag (its only 2 lbs) I’ll give her one more bag, and then start to switch her to the PVD. She had trouble enough the first couple days of switching to the Toy Breed Healthy Weight, so I don’t want to rush anything. Should I discontinue her Glucacosamins as soon as I start her on the PVD, or after she’s been on it for a while?

[Akari_32]

Its heeeeere! I forgot all the shipping stupidness with new years and everything lol So I got it today! It was poorly taped up, and they are lucky nothing fell out, but the inside was nicely packed, with a big bubble pouch thing in between the two bags.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/21E5C822-5512-4667-B261-9930EFC2E784_zpsanakshj8.jpg

She’s been real ouchy the last week or so, so I’m going to ahead and start her on the PVD tomorrow. I’ve only got about 2 cups of her Wellness left, but if she needs a longer transition, I have a couple more 2lb bags of it just in case.

Fingers crossed this helps her. I’m back to being unsure about this whole Purina thing… lol

[Dog_Obsessed]

Cool! I would also be unsure about Purina, but as BCnut always says, first go with what works and then worry about quality.

Also, has any vet ever talked about putting Ginger on pain meds temporarily? I might have missed this if you said it. It just occurred to me because Lily is temporarily taking Medacam (tonight was her last dose) and it’s really helped her. I know we all like to avoid medication if possible, but if it will make her feel more comfortable, then it might be worth it at least temporarily.

Where the heck do you get 2lb bags of Wellness, or any food for that matter? I need those! 🙂

[Akari_32]

This JM isn’t too horrible, not fantastic, but not terrible, either. Could be worse *cough* Hill’s! *cough*cough*

I have, but neither of them think she needs it. Maybe they’ll think differently if this food doesn’t do the trick. Bentley was given Previcox when he had that episode with his knee, and it helped him so much. The vet even sent some extra home just in case he needed it after his week long dosing was done, but I’ve since given it to him, before we even got Ginger.

Pet Supermarket sells them! I’ve not seen them at any other store around it. Only the Toy Breed ones come in the 2 lb bags. They’re something like $8.99, I think.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Ooh yeah, they have those on Chewy, too. Thanks!

[Akari_32]

How much are they on Chewy?

[Dog_Obsessed]

$8.99, not including shipping. http://www.chewy.com/dog/wellness-toy-breed-complete-health/dp/49392

[Akari_32]

Nice to see the prices are comparable! I usually find online dog food sites to be more expensive. Mostly because I have always coupons…. lol

[Dog_Obsessed]

I usually find them to be cheaper, lol. How do you get so many coupons anyway? Like, so many of the same one?

[Akari_32]

I just print them…. Lol It helps to have multiple computers, phones and iPads as well, for sites likes coupons.com were you can only print two coupons per device.

[Dog_Obsessed]

You can print multiples of the same coupon? What else don’t I know? 🙂

[Akari_32]

Yeah! It’s usually two per IP address. But sites like Wellness will do two “prints” but let you enter how many coupons you want to print each time.

[Dog_Obsessed]

First thought: Cool! I gotta do that!
Second thought: Wait, that’s legal right?

[Akari_32]

Yes lol

[Author]

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