V-Dog (Dry)

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Rating: ★★½☆☆

V-Dog Dog Food receives the Advisor’s second-lowest tier rating of 2.5 stars.

The V-Dog product line includes one dry dog food, a recipe claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for adult maintenance.

V-Dog

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 26% | Fat = 10% | Carbs = 57%

Ingredients: Dried peas, brown rice, pea protein concentrate, oats, sorghum, lentils, organic canola oil, peanuts, sunflower hearts, potato protein, brewers dried yeast, alfalfa meal, flaxseeds, natural vegetable flavor, quinoa, millet, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, vegetable pomace (carrot, celery, beet, parsley, lettuce, watercress & spinach), taurine, vitamins (vitamin E supplement, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D2 supplement, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid), choline chloride, minerals (zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, sodium selenite & calcium iodate), dl-methionine, l-lysine, l-carnitine, parsley flakes, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), dried cranberries, dried blueberries, preserved with citric acid and mixed tocopherols (form of vitamin E)

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 5.1%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis24%9%NA
Dry Matter Basis26%10%57%
Calorie Weighted Basis24%22%53%

The first ingredient in this dog food is dried peas. Dried peas are a good source of carbohydrates. Plus they’re naturally rich in dietary fiber.

However, dried peas contain about 27% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the meat content of this dog food.

The second ingredient is brown rice, a complex carbohydrate that (once cooked) can be fairly easy to digest. However, aside from its natural energy content, rice is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The third ingredient is pea protein, what remains of a pea after removing the starchy part of the vegetable.

Even though it contains over 80% protein, this ingredient would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.

And less costly plant-based products like this can notably boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The fourth ingredient is oats. Oats are rich in B-vitamins, minerals and dietary fiber.

The fifth ingredient is sorghum. Sorghum (milo) is a starchy cereal grain with a nutrient profile similar to corn.

Since it is gluten-free and boasts a smoother blood sugar behavior than other grains, sorghum may be considered an acceptable non-meat ingredient.

The sixth ingredient includes lentils. Lentils are a quality source of carbohydrates. Plus (like all legumes) they’re rich in natural fiber.

However, lentils contain about 25% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The seventh ingredient is canola oil. Unfortunately, canola can be a controversial item. That’s because some worry that canola oil is made from rapeseed, a genetically modified (GMO) raw material.

Yet others cite the fact canola oil can be a significant source of essential omega-3 fatty acids.

In any case, plant-based oils like canola are less biologically available to a dog than fish oil as a source of quality omega-3 fats.

The eighth ingredient is peanuts. Peanuts are not true nuts but rather legumes similar to beans and peas. They are rich in mono-saturated fats and dietary fiber.

The ninth ingredient is sunflower hearts. Sunflower hearts consist of the hulled kernel of the whole seed. They are rich in omega-6 fatty oils, vitamins A and E as well as dietary fiber.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With two notable exceptions

First, we find no mention of probiotics, friendly bacteria applied to the surface of the kibble after processing to help with digestion.

And lastly, the minerals listed here do not appear to be chelated. And that can make them more difficult to absorb. Non-chelated minerals are usually associated with lower quality dog foods.

V-Dog Dog Food
The Bottom Line

V-Dog is by design a meatless product.

So, although we do recognize the need for some dog owners to provide (for whatever reason) a completely meat-free diet, we also respect a dog’s natural carnivorous bias.

For this reason, the highest rating awarded any vegetarian dog food found on this website can never exceed 2.5 stars.

That said, and before we determine our final rating, it’s still important to estimate how much plant-based protein might be present.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 26%, a fat level of 10% and estimated carbohydrates of about 57%.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 38%.

Near-average protein. Below-average fat. And above-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Bottom line?

V-Dog is a meatless plant-based dry dog food that uses peas and pea protein concentrate as its main sources of protein, thus earning the brand 2.5 stars.

Not recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

Special Alert

Rice ingredients can sometimes contain arsenic. Until the US FDA establishes safe upper levels for arsenic content, pet owners may wish to limit the total amount of rice fed in a dog's daily diet.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

06/27/2014 Last Update

  • LabsRawesome

    Why not feed your dog his ancestral diet, and just use humanely raised meat. Feeding a carnivore a vegan diet is wrong period. http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/one-vets-advice-dont-force-your-pet-to-be-vegan?WT.z_mod=TOV

  • aquariangt

    “I’m looking forward to seeing my dogs health improve over time :)”
    Unlikely, but I wish you the best of luck

  • LabsRawesome

    Why not feed your dog his ancestral diet, and just use humanely raised meat.Feeding a carnivore a vegan diet is wrong period. http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/one-vets-advice-dont-force-your-pet-to-be-vegan?WT.z_mod=TOV

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi JB, welcome to DFA!

    Congratulations on becoming a vegan.

    You said:

    “I am completely disgusted with what I know about the quality of meat in pet foods”

    I agree that the quality of meat in dry dog food is pretty bad but I also think the quality of the veggies in dry dog food is also pretty terrible.Why do you think the quality of the veggies are any better than the quality of the meat?

  • JB

    I’m a bit late to the party here, but I just wanted to let you know that I don’t see you as angry or irrational at all. I am planning on buying V-Dog for my pups as soon as their current food runs out. I’m a new vegan and I am completely disgusted with what I know about the quality of meat in pet foods. Other than cooking for them (which will be way too expensive) I think this is the best option. Everyone else on here may not understand, but then again what were we thinking they would say? It’s hard enough getting people to comprehend a life with no meat,dairy,eggs for themselves let alone feeding their dogs that way. I’m looking forward to seeing my dogs health improve over time :)

  • Jeremy

    I would definitely require some sort of research and links to believe anything like that. Dogs are instinct driven and I don’t believe that will change by changing the diet.

  • aimee

    I do think it is a bit challenging to formulate a vegetarian diet. But not too difficult when dairy and egg are allowed. Vegan is harder still, but it can be done.

    If feeding vegetarian or vegan I’d only trust a company with veterinary nutritionists on board and I’d want feeding trials. There are a few products out there.

    In regards to philosophy as I see it most of what is in pet food is a by product of human consumption. The human demand for meat is what fuels the industry. Once an animals life is taken to feed a human I’d rather see all the by products used to feed another to honor that life vs go to fertilizer.

  • theBCnut

    Some plants need help getting pollinated, that could be considered plant rape. They don’t consent, you know.
    Forcibly hybridizing has got to be even worse…

  • LabsRawesome

    LMAO.

  • Shawna

    :-) I suppose you could consider forcibly hybridizing plant “rape”.. :-)

  • LabsRawesome

    Oh snap! Plants have emotions and feel pain. So, plants are being raped and murdered as well? I guess there’s no way around murdering something, to fill our bellies.

  • Claire L.

    I said nothing about a conspiracy involving the importation of dogs. You are the one shouting conspiracy when you said “yeah, that’s what they want us to think” in response to me saying there are millions of dogs being euthanized every year because there aren’t enough homes for them.

  • Shawna

    Why do you think the Center for Disease Control would be behind a conspiracy involving the importation of dogs? What do you think their motive is?

  • aimee

    Yup really I don’t agree a dog needs meat just as I don’t need meat.

  • Claire L.

    Okay, I really don’t know what is going on in your head. Now there is a conspiracy? Check the stats. Millions of dogs are euthanized every year because there are not enough homes to put them in. That is called excess. I don’t know if the article is factual or not. If it is, then a lot of the dogs that are being shipped in are strays, which are pretty much “extra dogs” wandering the streets. Again, excess.

    Yes, “responsible breeders” (there’s no such thing btw) ARE a problem. Forcing an animal to become pregnant is a problem. SELLING AN ANIMAL’S YOUNG FOR PROFIT IS A PROBLEM. Many of these specially bred dogs end up in a shelter, which just adds to the unwanted dog population, which as we know is high enough already.

  • Shawna

    LOL!! Okay, we all know that is true but one can say that they are going to die anyway (although many will first put down seeds etc). But I watched something one time that plants actually have emotions (I think on Discovery Channel). I couldn’t find the original film (which was probably too long for here anyway) but MythBusters did a test and the video is only about 5 minutes long. What do you guys think? (Since we are on the V-Dog page, I am assuming this is not too off topic?).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fStmk7e9lJo

  • LabsRawesome

    “Fact: plants die when you eat them”. LMAO!!

  • Shawna

    Well said.. I was thinking the very same thing.

  • Shawna

    I have definitely found over the years that you can’t beat someone over the head if you want them to consider your viewpoint.

  • Shawna

    Good point!! Makes you wonder doesn’t it.

  • LabsRawesome

    Here’s an excerpt from the article you posted- “These dogs are heartier and healthier than those that come from the southern U.S.” (dogs from Puerto Rico to as far as Taiwan). I wonder why their so much healthier? Could it be the lack of vaccinations? Hmmm……..

  • Shawna

    “There is an excess when it comes to dogs. Millions are euthanized every year because there AREN’T enough homes for them.”

    Yeah, that’s what they want us to think and some shelters and rescues are legit, probably most. But not all… An article from USAToday
    “Peluso is part of a trend: Animal shelters in the USA are casting a wide net — from Puerto Rico to as far as Taiwan — to fill kennels.

    Critics say many shelters have solved the stray problem in their own area — but rather than shut down, they become de facto pet stores. Some charge more than $200 per adoption for imported dogs.

    In the last seven years, one organization in Puerto Rico has shipped more than 14,000 strays to the states for adoption. Shipments from other countries also appear to be increasing. Most imports are small to medium-size dogs popular among adopters.

    …But people who want to adopt dogs increasingly find aged dogs or undesirable breeds like pit bulls at shelters, Patronek says.

    That’s where imports like Peluso come in.” http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-01-30-dogs-usat_x.htm

    DVM360 has an article on the topic as well (there’s is based more around the puppy mill trade but say this) “One rescue organization alone imported 295 dogs from the Middle East in 2006, according to Galland and Marano’s article”

    In the same DVM360 article the “CDC has taken “snapshots” of data to gauge dog import trends and found that 287,000 dogs were imported in 2006.” http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veterinary+news/States-crack-down-on-puppy-mills/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/658787

    Responsible breeders, in the US, ARE NOT the problem..

  • sue66b

    Hi I am a vegetarian, but I would never never stop my poor animals from eating any type of meats, I feel that is so cruel, I just read the ingredients peanuts, peas & more peas, Sunflowers hearts what are sunflower hearts??? I understand if a dog was real sick & could not digest meats then maybe this would be OK to eat but when a dog is healthy why deprive him from what he’s meant to eat…thats my opinion…

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi Claire L,

    Coming on DFA as a vegan who feeds their dogs a vegan diet is a tough role to play under any circumstances. But coming on DFA and attacking people, being rude and acting aggressively toward non-vegans is only going to stop people from hearing your message and alienate you and your “CAUSE”

    So if your intent was to rile people up against vegans you have succeeded admirably. On the other hand if you wanted to enlighten people on the plight of feed animals you have failed miserably!

    It’s not about what is right or what is wrong it is about the reality of what happens when you come and use the style of persuasion you did. You leave your “CAUSE” in a worse place than before you arrived. You fuel peoples anger and disrespect towards those “vegan nuts”.

    Of course you are free to continue to go about preaching a vegan lifestyle for people and their dogs any way you wish. I just want to let you know that unfortunately you have HURT and not helped the vegan movement on the Dog Food Advisor.

  • USA Dog Treats

    Thanks Labs, They are agressive!

  • Claire L.

    theBCnut, I’ve already stated multiple times that I do not support the pet industry. But if you want to keep your fingers in your ears and keep spouting off unfounded accusations, be my guest.

  • Claire L.

    I am not a member of PETA.

  • Claire L.

    LabsRawesome, I don’t believe non-human animals should have more rights, I think they should equal consideration. I am not a speciesist.

  • Claire L.

    Okay, let me explain.

    Yes, adopting dogs who are on death row in a shelter does not support puppy mills. It does contribute to a culture of domestication, I do agree with that. However, I value individual lives. These dogs deserve homes, and I believe they should have them. I DO NOT believe that we should
    keep breeding, and I DO NOT believe that the pet industry should even exist. Adopting a dog from a shelter does not create a demand. There is an excess when it comes to dogs. Millions are euthanized every year because there AREN’T enough homes for them. The only demand that is being created is that by selfish people who are breed specific and buy from breeders. THAT is where the demand is being created.

    Let’s move on. Eating animals supports slavery, rape, torture, murder, etc.There are no “humane” conditions. That is a myth. Even on
    “family friendly” farms, there is still slavery, rape, separation of mother and child, branding, theft, etc. There will always be inhumane conditions when you are raising animals for food, or stealing their eggs and breast milk. The two are inextricably bound together. To continue to eat animals from any farm, factory or otherwise, not only directly supports harming animals, but also perpetuates the culture of eating
    animals, neither of which are good things. So on the companion animal part, yes you are perpetuating a culture, but you are saving individuals while not contributing to the breeding of more. On the animal eating part, you are perpetuating a rather barbaric culture, while directly supporting mass harm to others.

    I can be against domestication and take care of dogs. I do not like
    domestication, but I recognize that there are innocent lives here that need to be cared for. I have never and will never support breeding domesticated animals.

    So as you can see your interpretation of the logic I am using is clearly flawed.

  • aquariangt

    No basic commands? Let me know how that goes when your dog chases a rabbit into the street

  • LabsRawesome

    You can’t reason with members of PETA. They believe that animals should have more rights than people.

  • LabsRawesome

    So I take it you’re a member of PETA? That explains why you’re so aggressive.

  • LabsRawesome

    Really, aimee? You don’t believe that dogs need meat? Don’t you feed kibble that contains meat, as well as add fresh meat to that kibble? I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here.

  • LabsRawesome

    OMG. Not that creepy vet video again. UGH

  • Henry

    What food does your dog eat?

  • LabsRawesome

    Sorry Shawna, but you can’t reason with someone that thinks animals should have more rights than people.

  • LabsRawesome

    She’s a PETA Nazi. They think animals should have more rights than people. Yet PETA killed a bunch of dogs in their care. They would rather see dogs die than be kept as pets. PETA wants to outlaw owning companion animals. I guess they want us to turn them all loose? Craziness. There would be packs of wild dogs everywhere attacking people, little kids. PETA is nothing more than a bunch of kooks.

  • LabsRawesome

    I’m totally fine with people making a personal choice to be a vegan/vegetarian. But dogs need a meat based diet. If a person is not willing to feed an animal it’s ancestral diet then they shouldn’t have that animal in their care. Period. These 2 new people show up here at the same time, on the same day. And start with these angry rants, and talking down & being rude to everyone. Strange coincidence, isn’t it? Claire L. even attacked you. And you expect us to just all get along? Sorry, but that’s not going to happen. These 2 are just too aggressive towards everyone here.

  • Shawna

    Let me take one more stab at this — I TOTALLY agree with you that adopting a few dogs from a shelter doesn’t support puppy mills.

    BUT using your logic that ANYONE who eats meat, even from humanely raised and slaughtered animals, is supporting the abuse of all — I can say that by EVERYONE owning a dog we are creating a demand for dogs and thus supporting puppy mills. You are expressing a one size fits all viewpoint and I am giving you another one size fits all viewpoint. It’s just that you don’t like that one so you are defending your actions.

    Then to take it a step further, you say you are against companion animals. I disagree but at least your views are in line. However you show yourself to by a hypocrite by making that statement but then owning two dogs…

  • theBCnut

    “Billions are enslaved, raped, tortured and killed every year for greed, and I will be no less than outraged over that. I do not advocate for “humane” conditions, I advocate for freedom.”
    The beginning of this describes the dog industry just as much as it describes the food industry, so I thought that maybe you would have the same standard for dogs as you do chickens and cows, but I guess you care about chickens more.

  • Claire L.

    You are deeply confused Shawna. I don’t know how else to explain it to you, I tried to use clear language but you just don’t seem to understand the difference between supporting breeding and rescuing dogs. I don’t know what else to say.

  • Shawna

    You have double standards Claire. You may not be able to see it (or won’t allow yourself to) but you do. I can get on board with vegetarianism and veganism as a personal choice but I can’t take you seriously at all.

  • Cyndi

    Don’t feed the trolls. ;)

  • Claire L.

    aquariangt, dogs have evolved alongside humans to thrive on omnivorous and herbivorous diets. You will find many vets that back plant based diets, and you will find even more dogs who are happy and healthy on plant based diets. Every single dog is going to have their caretaker’s values pushed onto them in the form of food, whether it be animal or plant based, yet people only want to talk about how the vegans are “pushing their beliefs” onto their pets. That is such a lame argument and I am surprised at how often I hear it. And don’t even bother using the nature fallacy; there is nothing natural about domestic dogs and my chihuahuas, they are products of selective breeding.

  • Claire L.

    Yes, Shawna, but giving shelter dogs a chance at a happy life does not SUPPORT the breeding business. They are shelter dogs, they either get adopted or they die. Whether or not Solly and Ava were adopted had no bearing on whether people will breed again. People are going to continue breeding, and dogs are going to end up in the shelter because of it. But again, they either die or get adopted. Either choice will not influence breeding. I already stated I am completely against breeding, so you don’t need to tell me what kind of sick lives breeder dogs live. I know about it and I abhor it. I do not even support domestication in the first place and hope to see a world where companion animals don’t exist. But these dogs DO exist and they are individuals, and they can either die or be adopted. I chose to adopt a couple and give them a loving home. Adopting dogs otherwise sentenced to death is not a support for breeding. It just isn’t.

  • Claire L.

    theBCnut, what a laugh! Someone has to take care of them, otherwise they will die. Our two chihuahuas are not going to make it on their own if we set them loose. They are not subject to my “whims.” I don’t force them to do tricks and they don’t even know basic commands. Yes, they have some restrictions, like when they go outside, but all in all they pretty much do what they want, usually snuggling in bed with me and my husband. And you want to talk about unnatural diets? The whole pet industry is unnatural. THEY are unnatural, products of selective breeding. I feed them a healthy diet supplemented with yummy treats and foods that I know they like. They are happy and healthy, and I think that’s a pretty good thing seeing as one was rescued the day before being euthanized and the other was in a very high kill shelter. You will never convince me that I am not doing a good things by taking care of these defenseless creatures.

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi Dog Food Ninja,

    You wrote:

    “I will not for a second believe that eating meat is somehow wrong.”

    That is YOUR belief. I don’t agree with it but I don’t have to.

    People who don’t eat meat for ethical reasons do so because of THEIR belief system not yours.

    People who don’t eat meat for ethical reasons don’t have to disagree with your whole evolutionary argument. They just have to say they don’t feel comfortable eating animals for THEIR reasons.

    There is no argument that a meat eater can put forth that will show an ethical vegetarian that their belief system is WRONG.

    Vegetarians who choose to feed their dog’s a vegetarian diet are often made fun of or ridiculed or told that it is WRONG to feed their dog’s that way.

    People who feed their dog’s a vegetarian diet because they believe it is unethical to eat or feed animals should be treated with respect not disdain.

    The world would be a much better place if everyone tried to do their best for all animals no matter which side of the meat or no meat argument their personal philosophies fell on.

  • losul

    I think it’s challenging for humans to get all they need from plants, but even more so for dogs.

    And again that falls back on the misleading arguments that dogs need nutrients not ingredients, and need/thrive/survive, etc.

    Maybe some do, but I thinks it’s quite reasonable to say that some dogs will not thrive on a vegan diet, and some simply won’t even tolerate a diet without meat. If a dog fails to thrive, hopefully the vegan owner of these dogs would recognize that, seek professional help and/or could either set their philosophies and preferences aside for the dogs sake or consider rehoming the dog to another family, IMO.

    Aimee you always emphasize the importance of feed trials, I would agree most emphatically in the case of canine vegan diets.

    In your own link;

    However, none of the currently available meat-free diets for dogs or cats base their claims of nutritional adequacy on recognised feeding
    protocols such as those of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO, 2007).”

    “Many plant ingredients contain high levels of non-starch polysaccharides and other anti-nutritive factors, which may reduce the availability of some nutrients. A diet devoid of animal ingredients is also likely to be of low palatability to
    dogs.”

    “Palatability

    Although some individual dogs and some breeds of dogs will consume most foods that they are presented with, the palatability of diets devoid of animal ingredients is likely to be an issue for many dogs with more discriminating palates. It is interesting to note that a website promoting vegetarianism in dogs and cats also advertises ‘vegetarian supplements’, including flavour
    enhancers “to encourage dogs and cats to eat” and enzyme powders “to increase the absorption of vital
    nutrients”.

    “This seems to imply that palatability and nutrient digestibility are problems associated with the vegetarian and vegan diets they are promoting.”

    ———————————

    “The nutritional adequacy of vegetarianpet foods has been investigated. One study analyzed 12 commercially available vegetarian dog foods and found that only 2 of them were nutritionally adequate.”

    http://ciencia_tecnologia_carnes.docx.evz.ufg.br/uploads/66/original_Dietas_nao-convencionais.pdf

  • Blegh

    Well, that was unrelated to your original question.But I get it, you don’t want anyone who doesn’t share your exact opinion on a public forum. I will leave and not engage in any further discussion with people like you who lack compassion. And yeah, check any vegan site and find your hypothesis disproven. Wet get bullied and attacked all the time. And never did I tell you what to feed your dog. You asked about consent from animals and all I can hope is that your pets will never get treated like farm animals simply because they (per your statement) can’t consent.

  • LabsRawesome

    Yes, Blegh and Claire L. are definitely the same troll. Everyone should just stop responding. Let her argue with herself.

  • LabsRawesome

    You are the one that could use some manners. You purposely come to a site where the majority of the participants are NOT vegetarian/vegan, and start arguing with everyone. You should go to a site for vegetarian/vegans. I bet you don’t get people crashing/trolling on those sites, trying to convince you to feed your dogs meat. You can feed your captive dogs improperly, if you want to. Just remember they can’t give you their consent, so you are basically raping their bodies, by feeding them incorrectly.

  • aquariangt

    Do you think that over 60% carbs is acceptable for a dog? Dogs get the most from high protein, which the best source to keep carbs low is a meat based diet. There is always the amino acids conversation as well, though I’m well aware of the fact that you know all of this :-P

  • aimee

    What specifically, nutrient wise, is found in meat and not in plants such that a dog on a meat free diet would not be able to thrive?

  • Dog Food Ninja

    Fact: plants die when you eat them.

    That being said, I will not for a second believe that eating meat is somehow wrong when we evolved to be the big brained primates we are now over 2.2 million years of meat consumption. And dogs are even more specialized for eating meat by even longer evolutionary lines. We can certainly all agree that animals should be treated humanely and cared for and have good quality of life. Furthermore, food animals should eat the food they evolved eating as well: cows eat grass, chickens eat bugs, etc. But the argument changes when we are talking about what is truely healthful to eat. Corn and wheat and soybeans are not foods consumed by any thing in nature. Dogs did not evolve a system of digesting whole grains. Nor did we, which is why grains must be processed to become sort of edible (but toxic and full of sugar none the less). Grass fed grazing animals are edible exactly how they are found in nature. Most non-seasonal year round vegetation is not usable by people or dogs. Which is why we have relied on animal fat and protein as our main source of calories for most of our evolutionary history. Besides, you can grow many more animal based calories of of a rotational grass farming operation than you can from acres of GMO corn and soy monocultures.

  • aquariangt

    that paper is definitely a well done review, and I think “need” is a strong word. Again, there is the thrive and survive topic. And while soy is certainly an alternative for most animals (including humans) I think the soy industry is every bit as corrupt as the meat industry

  • aimee

    Just want to add that I don’t agree that dogs need meat.: )

    I think this paper is a well done review of the topic http://www.une.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/30471/brown-raan-2009-vegetarian-dog.pdf

  • Blegh

    Lol. That was so convincing that I’ll just have yo throw all my morals overboard and become a carnivore again.

  • OhMyGoodness23

    If Vegan is so good why do grazers eat their off springs placentas for the concentrated nutritional value

  • Blegh

    Do your own research. I’ve done mine. Even though I doubt that someone with an “everybody does it so it’s the only right thing” attitude can actually grasp peer reviewed scientific studies.

  • aquariangt

    From long periods of time ago, none of the, are reading this now.

    And please, link me some credible research that shows I’m “spreading misinformation” about dog food.

  • Blegh

    Look around this thread and you’ll find many people with healthy dogs on vegan diets. Maybe you should find a new hobby. Spreading misinformation seems a bit desperate to me.

  • aquariangt

    Don’t really need to. Everyone but Claire here agrees that dogs need meat. I didn’t stumble on a website that clearly doesn’t agree with vegan dog food and try to convince people that seem to be more informed than you otherwise. And it doesn’t matter what details you’ve said or not said, every comment I’ve made stands because you say “I am doing what’s best for my dog” while feeding what is well known to be biologically inappropriate

    What are you trying to do? Yahoo is that way, I’m sure there are vegan feeders there.

  • Blegh

    Haven’t seen anything from you either except for poorly crafted responses to things I didn’t even say.

  • aquariangt

    Why? You’re doing the same thing with your dog. Go ahead and read the ingredient label. It’s a lot of crap, just to warn you. Feed what you want, but don’t come toting here that you’re doing what’s best for your dog. I’ve also not seen you post a credible source for research, and your vets blood work certainly doesn’t count

  • Blegh

    You lost me at “most vegans”.

  • aquariangt

    Are you just trying to flip words around from what I said to you? That isn’t sound reasoning, and if you think scientific progress is vegan dog food, you live in a but of a shell. You’re already feeding kibble, which is unnaturally processed, but most vegans I know just eat processed crap because they’re too lazy to be educated on proper nutrition and what it takes to be a vegan

  • Blegh

    How are you qualified to make that statement?

  • Blegh

    I feel for your poor dogs. I know scientific advancement and latest research is not of concern to you. It seems unfair that they have to suffer as a result.

  • aquariangt

    I’m really not a troll, I do firmly believe that what you’re doing is wrong though. And I disagree that any vegan dog food would be “ensuring ones dog welfare”

  • aquariangt

    Vets and nutrition isn’t exactly a good match, they don’t receive much education on the topic and they don’t stay up with current research.

    You said you were concerned with animal welfare, well, I am too. So I’m just pointing out the disservice you’re doing your pups :)

  • Blegh

    C’Mon, troll. Just stop pretending to be an authority. There may just be more than one way to ensure one’s dog welfare.

  • Blegh

    Well, I did my research, talked to three different vets and have blood work done on them every year and they’re doing great. I doubt you’re more qualified than vets to come to your very narrow minded opinion. And see how I don’t tell you how and what to feed your dogs? You’re the one pushing ideals on dogs and people. Good luck with that, but get off my back already.

  • aquariangt

    I would disagree with you. You sound more uneducated on the topic than anything. Your dogs welfare in particular.

  • aquariangt

    Seems that way, they sound the same

  • aquariangt

    I have a sneaking suspicion that your dogs aren’t thriving, and you just are blissfully unaware. While cats are an obligate carnivore, as you’ve pointed out a few times, dogs are definitely more carnivorous when given the choice. You’re already supporting meat. Do some actual nutrition research, because if you did, you would know you aren’t doing what’s best

  • Blegh

    Lol, no. It appears that there’s more than person concerned about animal welfare.

  • Blegh

    I agree that there’s a big difference between survive and thrive. My digs are thriving. Their energy levels are perfect, they have full shiny coats and blood tests confirm that they are healthy. I am not pushing my ideals on them, I do what I know to be best for them. Now I also have a cat and I’d never deprive her of meat, she is a true carnivore and there’s nothing I can do about that.

  • Betsy Greer

    I’m confused. Are Blegh and Claire L the same person?

  • aquariangt

    I mean, that’s cool and all, but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re feeding your dogs a poor diet. Survive and thrive are also two different words, since we’re on vocabulary. If you’re that concerned with animal welfare, go fishing for your dogs, but you mostly are busy pushing your ideals on an animal who, without choice, is being fed an unnatural diet

  • theBCnut

    So you adopted two dogs and turned them loose, right? Or are they living in captivity as your slaves, subject to your whims, forced to eat an unnatural diet? Don’t tell me, let me guess, you’re protecting them.

  • Blegh

    I’m quite calm, but thanks for trying to weasel out of your fallacious argument. No one is watching cows have sex. Where did you get that from? We’re talking about cows being forcefully and artificially impregnated for the majority of their lives. They are then robbed of their calves and bellow for days in mourning then they are pumped non-stop, develop infections and diseases and don’t get to move around. This happens repeatedly throughout their entire lives. Your nonchalance is willful ignorance and I am always amazed how people like you would rather make things up to attack those of us who care about where our food comes from. And consent is something you clearly habe to educate yourself on. Next time you ask a question and someone takes the time to answer, have some manners.

  • Shawna

    I completely disagree, it is those puppy mill dogs that end up at the rescue or shelter. I foster for Boston Terrier rescue and Papillon rescue. People get a dog, can’t potty train them or whatever, get rid of them and then we find out less than a year later they have another dog.

    Generally, people who get their dogs from “responsible” breeders have a contract that the dog has to go back if they can’t keep it. Dogs in rescue and humane societies are FAR more likely to be puppy mill dogs.

    Do you know some mill owners shove steal pipes down the breeding dog’s throat in order to debark them. Sometimes it goes horribly wrong. Dogs live outside in TINY little cages in ALL weather conditions. Some lose their legs to the wire cages. Some have dental disease so bad that their jaws disintegrate.

    Think this one over again – IF humans didn’t have dogs in their lives, puppy mills would not be around just like if there weren’t meat eaters there would be no CAFO’s.

  • Claire L.

    I can’t in good conscious promote anything but the message of veganism. Billions are enslaved, raped, tortured and killed every year for greed, and I will be no less than outraged over that. I do not advocate for “humane” conditions, I advocate for freedom.

    I adopted two dogs from shelters and I am adamantly against breeding. My actions do not promote puppy mills in any way, so that argument is out.

  • Shawna

    I agree with you. And when I was young I had high ideals and expectations. I thought I could make a difference in politics, in animal welfare etc (I live in a puppy mill state — talk about HORRIBLE LIVES). I didn’t stop caring but I did realize that baby steps are going to make a far bigger impact than trying to change the world. People will often just block the entire message if you go too big too fast.

    By the way, puppy mills meet a very high demand for the companion animal “business”. It could be argued that you owning a dog contributes to the EXTREME abuse breeding dogs deal with in those puppy mills.

  • Claire L.

    These farms a very, very small minority. The majority of animals used for food (10+ billion a year in the US) are packed into warehouses living in their own filth and waste. There is beak clipping, tail docking, tagging, castrating, etc. These are HORRIBLE lives to live. I do not advocate for “humane” farming because I don’t believe animals are ours to use in any way, shape or form. Besides, “humane” farming is not a solution. Factory farms exist to meet a very high demand for animal flesh and secretions. “Humane” farms will never meet this demand.

  • Shawna

    Ummm, I grew up on a farm in Colorado and I can tell you from first hand experience that our cows had LOTS of space to roam and the chickens were only cooped up at night — to protect them from coyotes.

    Yes, I know about veal and gestation crates for pigs and how they kill baby male chicks in the egg laying industry. But rather than attempt to turn everyone away from all animal based products, why not advocate for humane raising and slaughter. It seems this is far easier, but still very difficult, then to try to turn everyone vegan. I eat pork but I boycotted pork from companies that use gestation crates. I buy, as much as I can, grass finished beef products. I even buy cosmetics with the leaping bunny seal.

    For what it’s worth, I tried vegetarian for a year but I just couldn’t stay vibrant on it. It was likely more my inability to properly combine proteins but I don’t have that problem with the small amount of meat I consume daily.

  • Claire L.

    Not really, USA; I stated facts. If you want to operate under the guise of a “humane vegetarian” then so be it, but don’t expect people to not call you out on it. I don’t know what standards you set for “understanding” but I directly responded to most of what you said. But if you want to bow out because you can’t adequately defend your stance, then go ahead.

  • Claire L.

    LabsRawesome, that’s exactly the point, they cannot and do not consent to what is done to them. I’m not speaking about bulls having sex with cows, I’m speaking of humans sticking their arms into a cow’s anus, or putting a metal rod into her vagina. That is sexual assault and it’s disgusting.

  • Claire L.

    Shawna, we don’t protect these animals, we exploit them. We don’t provide them land, we stuff them in warehouses. Their lives are filled with pain and sorrow. I’m constantly baffled when people throw out the extinction question. What is more important, that a species exist, or that individuals aren’t subjected to lives of confinement and torture? Sure, we keep the species alive, but at what cost?! I’m am much in favor of the species dying out if it means the billions are free from the horrors we afflict on these animals.

  • Shawna

    Have you ever wondered how chickens or cows would survive without the protection of humans? It’s quite doubtful that most human beings would feed, protect and provide land/water for these creatures if they didn’t get something from them. Would cows, chickens etc be extinct if not for human consumption, and therefore protection, of said animals?

    That said, I am very much against killing anything inhumanely. I recently read an article regarding snake skin products that still makes my stomach turn due to the inhumane treatment every time I think about it… :(

  • LabsRawesome

    Woah, calm down, We’re talking about Cows here. Not people. How can you tell if one Cow is raping another Cow? How can you tell if it’s consensual? Also, why are you watching Cows have sex in the first place?

  • Blegh

    Yeah, and if you can’t consent it’s rape. And what about physically or mentally impaired human animals? Or babies? Just because they aren’t able to consent in the first place, they can’t be raped or sexually assaulted?

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi Claire L,

    Your response to me is so clouded by YOUR biases that you clearly did not get my meaning. So I will bow out of a debate with you until you can at least respond like you understood what it is I actually said.

  • LabsRawesome

    How do you know that Cows are raped? I didn’t know that was possible, as animals can’t really give consent in the first place.

  • Claire L.

    First of all, animals do die in the dairy and egg industries, and they suffer greatly. In factory farms calves are slaughtered for veal, and lactating mothers are killed when they are of no more use. Chickens constantly die in the egg industry due to being completely packed and uncared for. (Your iPad is bigger than a layer hen’s space.) Let’s not forget the high rates of mastitis and other afflictions and diseases these animals endure. I don’t know where exactly your philosophy is coming from, or why death is so much worse than a life of suffering, but your average Joe vegetarian is still supporting death, violence and suffering.

    Even “family friendly” farms that you are supporting and believe to be “humane” commit atrocities such as separating newborn calves from their mothers and raping cows to get them pregnant. Hens are better off consuming their unfertilized eggs to replenish calcium and other nutrients, as laying is very taxing on their bodies. And of course, when they are no longer producing they are killed. So you are still supporting rape, slavery, suffering and death in your “humane” choices. Btw there is no such thing as “humane slaughter” as the very definition of the word implies something brutal and violent.

    Second of all, it really doesn’t matter how well he explains his bias if he’s biased. The website clearly states “unbiased reviews” and that is not what is going on here.

    Third of all, the old dog story was just an anecdote for people to consider, since so many people think that putting a dog on a plant-based diet is going to kill them. And people believe that- no joke.

  • USA Dog Treats

    Debates on vegetarian dog foods pop up every now and then on DFA.

    I’m a vegetarian. My philosophy is that I will not eat anything that had to die for me to eat it. So I do eat eggs and cheese. I am fortunate to be able to buy eggs and dairy that come from humanely raised and slaughtered, hormone and antibiotic-free animals. I also feed my dogs meats that fit those specifications. For many reasons I do not feel comfortable feeding my dog’s a vegetarian diet. One day I hope that changes!

    As for the argument that a vegan kibble is “better” than meat based kibble “A” I find the limitations of ALL kibbles pretty significant and I would suggest that the argument be moved to homemade diets that are vegan or meat based to produce any reliable results.

    The editor of this website rates all foods based on meat content. Biased? yes but he explains this and he is consistent in his reviews. He also does not take into account the “Quality” of the ingredients.

    There is a new Editors Choice section that DOES take into account the quality of the ingredients and the “Quality” of the companies.

    The argument that a certain dog lived to an old age eating a certain food is pretty flawed. Maybe if you had a litter of 12 pups all raised together with 6 eating ONLY one food and 6 eating a different food with EVERY other part of their diet and lives being the same you could draw some conclusions about which diet did what. Otherwise you could never know if the vegan dog who lived to 27 would have lived to 29 or 24 if he ate a meat based diet.

    I respect vegans and vegetarians who feed their dog’s a vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical and moral reasons. It is a noble cause! I hope that when they post here at DFA we respect THEIR views and not offer sarcasm like they should have gotten a rabbit instead.

  • Shawna

    I definitely agree with you there!! However it isn’t simply meat that has turned into “crap” food.

    I’m glad to see you are concerned with toxins in the environment. I’m assuming then you don’t use flea/tick or heartworm meds. I don’t for the very reason you mention.

    Some would argue that ANY kibble is crap due to the excessive heat and processing. Most vegans and vegetarians I know would never eat a processed pellet devoid of natural vitamins and enzymes as the mainstay of their meal.

    There are several ingredients in V-dog that have proven to be problematic for health. There are no less than three ingredients (possibly four) that are sources of free glutamic acid and over time can have the same consequences as MSG. Flaxseed is a wonderful source of fiber and the fatty acid ALA. But adult dogs can not efficiently convert ALA to the more needed DHA/EPA (necessary for brain, heart and eye health).

    Dr. Pitcairn is a vegetarian and very conscientious of toxins in our food supply, especially meat. That said, he believes in the importance of dietary meat in the canine and feline diet. He does however utilize considerably more carbohydrate than others whom advocate a less processed diet.

    One final thought – my dog was born with chronic kidney disease. She will be eight years old in ten days and is still in very good health. Dogs with kd need to be fed “high quality protein” — quinoa (which I had for lunch and love), soy and such are not “high quality” proteins when you factor bioavailability — which means everything in kd. And, the only time she gets symptoms such as vomiting is if I feed her kibble for more than a couple meals off and on. Her normal diet is high meat protein, raw. I try to source organic and grass finished as much as possible.

  • ceegeewi

    Prey drive is one thing. Quality food is another. The crap meat in dog food doesn’t qualify as quality food to me. My dog is on v-dog and just fine. I wouldn’t let my dog eat wild animals either… People put out poisons, the put chemicals on their lawns etc.

  • swak

    you gonna love this
    richarddarlington.com

  • swak

    she said he said
    richarddarlington.com

  • Claire L.

    The oldest dog was a 27 year old vegan, which far trumps your comment. Dogs do not need meat to be healthy, and we don’t need to be killing animals to feed our pets.

  • Claire L.

    This is not an unbiased review; you are clearly biased towards meat products. Our two dogs eat V-dog and are extremely healthy, with full coats, no allergies and loads of energy. One came from the shelter and was very underweight when we adopted her. She is now a healthy weight and has no health issues. We have several friends who feed their dogs V-dog and they are all very healthy. All of the ones who get blood work done always come back with normal profiles. Btw, the oldest dog in the world was a 27 year old vegan, and many vets recommend plant based diets for dogs with severe allergies. V-dog chooses quality ingredients instead of slaughterhouse waste (eyeballs, beaks, etc.) and diseased and/or euthanized animals. Dogs do not require animal products and do very well on plant based diets. It’s a shame your review doesn’t reflect that.

  • Dori

    Absolutely will let her have the blueberries, strawberries, raspberries. She can have them all if it will make her better.

  • Shawna

    Very refreshing take yidaki_mark!!! An 18 year old Great Dane?? That is fantastic!! Many of us here, myself included, feed raw diets.

  • Shawna

    I’m am laughing hysterically picturing this in my mind!! Let Hanna have all the blueberries and strawberries she wants right now!!!! ;-)

  • Shawna

    Pet Poison Helpline (which is made up of pharmacists, toxocologists and vets) says the tomato itself is not toxic.

    “The ripened fruit of this plant (the commonly eaten tomato) is considered non-toxic but the green parts of the plant contain solanine, a glycoalkoloid. Solanine is also found in many other plants from the Solanaceae family, including the potato plant (green parts only). Typically, when ingested by dogs and cats, it rarely results in toxicity. A large amount needs to be ingested (e.g., chronically in cattle) for solanine to result in severe poisoning. Ingestion can cause severe gastrointestinal distress
    (e.g., vomiting, diarrhea), lethargy, weakness, and even confusion.” http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/tomato-plant/

    Data about the staff members of Pet Poison Helpline http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/about/staff/

  • yidaki_mark

    Robin, but you are forcing your own self-interest on your dogs. See dogs are very much like us. If you limit what they eat and then offer them something else they won’t eat it. Just like we do. So your dogs don’t really love eating vegan. You’ve conditioned them to not enjoy anything else. I’ll tell you what. Order some green tripe from http://www.mypetcarnivore.com and add a few pieces to your dogs meals. What how quickly their normal desires kick in. They’re start eating the tripe and leaving the vegan food. I asked one vegan friend to try this with his Schnauzer. He messaged me two days after he started giving his dog tripe and told me that his dog stopped eating the vegan dog food and only wanted tripe.

  • yidaki_mark

    I am vegan, my dogs are not. I have a friend who is feeding all of her dogs raw daily. Want to guess how old her youngest one is? Her Great Dane is 18 years old and acts like a puppy. No joint pains or problems. She also has two Borzoi that are 13. No one ever mentions Borzoi that age. I will not ever feed dogs a vegan diet as I feel it is completely wrong. It is not biologically appropriate for them and does not meet all of their nutritional needs. Please do your research. I have been vegan for 26 years. This is a topic very close to my heart. Obviously, for the same reason as you. I am a vegan. However, my furkids never asked to be vegan. They have those powerful teeth for a reason and it’s not to chomp on cucumbers. They’re meant to crush bones into powder.

  • yidaki_mark

    Noooo. Do not let your dogs eat tomatoes. The actual plants are toxic to dogs. They are listed as one of the most toxic plants for dogs.

    http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/5-fruits-and-veggies-that-are-toxic-to-your-dog/

  • Shawna

    LOL!! Speaking of toxins, several of mine dine regularly on fallen acorns from the neighbors tree. I freaked when I learned they can be toxic but I can’t prevent those determined to eat them from getting at least some… Ughhh

  • dchassett

    My dogs are also crazed when the figs are in season. If I don’t act quickly, between the birds, chipmunks, squirrels and our dogs we get hardly any for us.

  • JaketheMutt

    There must be something in tomatoes that attract dogs,lol! Mine are the same way,we have 4 beefsteak tomato bushes in our backyard that the dogs will not leave alone.The orange tree leaves/oranges are also a staple,wait hold that thought,pretty much anything with leaves is considered quite tasty amongst my brood,thankfully they never messed with the Sago palms we used to have;after I found out they are toxic to dogs;I ripped those suckers out pronto.

  • dchassett

    Thanks Labs. I’m always looking for something to make her a bit more comfortable. Also I haven’t tried Biotin for her poop eating. Interesting.

  • LabsRawesome

    Here’s a link, it gives vitamins and and tells what diseases/problems they help with. There are some that they recommend for easing allergies. http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_vitamins.php

  • dchassett

    I took a look. That is so funny, it’s C4C except for her cat.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    My pug is always on a diet so he goes and pulls little tomatoes off the vine!

  • Shawna

    I understand your neighbors disapproval of his chickens being chased but a gun is NOT the solution — not that I have to tell anyone here that!!!

    That is funny that he was still such a sweet boy despite the bullet wound!! :) Dogs are amazing creatures!!!!

  • dchassett

    Thanks Patty. I was always afraid of them getting any tomatoes. I’ll have to try a little and see how it goes. I love finding new ingredients to add to their diets. I will go slowly with my “delicate flower”, Katie. As I’ve said. Everyday it’s something new with her and now with Spring arriving and everything starting to bloom her environmental allergies have kicked in.

  • theBCnut

    Peekaboo always hissed, spat, and swatted at us, and now she can’t get enough attention. It’s like she lost her mind, but in a good way.

  • Crazy4cats

    Lucky you! I have a grey one trying to sit on my lap right now on top of my iPad. She waits until I’m trying to sleep to get on my head. She was also a wild stray. As soon as I make a move for her, however, she’s under a bed lickety split! She always seems to know when to hide.

  • theBCnut

    Remember how I had to PTS one of my cats last month and I was worried about her sister pining away for her? Well, one of those gray ones on the head must be Peekaboo, who has decided she no longer wants to be a feral cat and now spends every minute of every day seeking human attention, including climbing on top of my head when I’m sitting on the couch.

  • Crazy4cats

    Hey- that looks nothing like us. You are missing a white cat! Lol!

  • neezerfan

    so far so good with the tomatoes

  • LabsRawesome
  • theBCnut

    I agree to judge a dog by it’s breed is stupid unless you are talking about an actual breed trait that the dog is showing, but I have know many dogs that were completely messed up due to bad breeding, so I don’t blame the owner either. Temperament is inborn, behavior is trained.

  • theBCnut

    I don’t think there is a food that is too acidic for a healthy dog. Two of mine love tomatos, the third is sensitive to them, but not because of the acid.

  • Crazy4cats

    Oh, my dogs didn’t eat any chickens. They just thought it was really fun to chase them. It wasn’t about eating them at all.

  • LabsRawesome

    The wolf dog was so sweet and gentle, I really hope she’s there again when I go. I want to get some pics of her. The way she played with little Blue was so cute! The size difference was too funny. :)

  • Nickolas

    My point is that what is natural once you domesticate an animal especially a carnivore? The natural argument is invalid due to domestication by a species designed to eat plants. lol

  • Nickolas

    I have heard switching dogs to plant based diet makes them less likely to kill and eat other animals. Not surprising it makes sense really.

  • Crazy4cats

    We had a 1/2 coyote dog at our park last summer. Had never seen that before. He didn’t really want to play with any of the other dogs. But, he didn’t really bother any of them either.

  • dchassett

    I believe that behind any dog with bad behavior one can always find a very lazy ill informed owner or an abusive owner. It’s not the dog, it’s not the breed. It’s the owner. We don’t judge an entire population by their race, or nationalities (at least I hope not) why do people get to do that with animal breeds. They hear a few bad stories about a breed and then follow with the assumption that they’re all bad, all aggressive, all biters, etc. A lot of toddlers bite. Should we fear them or spend time teaching right from wrong? What is acceptable behavior and what is not.

  • dchassett

    OMG! Poor baby. Rotten neighbor.

  • LabsRawesome

    I was at the dog park, when I noticed this huge dog getting out of a truck with it’s owner. I watched them come into the fenced area. So I said hello to the girl & she said hi. Then I asked her what kind of a dog she had, she said German Shep mix. I said really? What’s the mix? It looks like a Wolf. She (kind of nervously) said yes it is a G Shep/Wolf. She said she doesn’t like to tell people that. I was like that’s okay, I’m not scared. I don’t judge dogs by their breed, their all individuals. She seemed really relieved. Her Wolf dog was the sweetest most gentle dog at the park (well besides my Lab lol) Her Wolf/dog played with my tiny Dachshund, actually it played so gently with all 3 of my dogs. It had great manners, it was a very impressive huge dog. I hope she comes back so I can get a pic. I forgot my phone that day too, of course.

  • Crazy4cats

    This happened almost a year ago. Luckily, we have not accidentally left our gate open once since then.

  • Crazy4cats

    No, not good at all. One of my dogs took a bullet for it. We are very lucky he is still alive. Poor thing. I didn’t know why he was bleeding when I rushed him to the vet. He was still sitting in the waiting room wagging his tail and greeting everyone that came in with a bullet hole in him. Dumb dog!! :)

  • dchassett

    YIKES! Poor neighbors chickens. :)

  • dchassett

    I think it’s a bit turned around at my house. I think most of the time I’m at my girls mercy and they have trained me well.
    But, yes, unless you have a big piece of property where they can hunt, they are at our mercy for food which is why we spend as much time investigating foods and nutrition and getting advice from others. So glad for this site. Love all you guys in dogfoodadvisor land. My girls are so happy and healthy now and it’s all due to all of you.

  • LabsRawesome
  • dchassett

    Actually one of my best friends had a dog(?) that was actually more wolf than dog and he was incredibly sweet and quite domesticated. She finally had to relocate it to her brother-in-law in the Carolinas because it is illegal to own a wolf as a pet in Connecticut where she was living at the time.

  • dchassett

    I didn’t realize tomatoes work ok for them. I thought they might be too acidic. Am I wrong in that thinking?

  • dchassett

    Actually my dogs are constantly eating the blueberries off my bushes, can’t hardly keep any for us. It’s a race between me and them trying to get to the blueberries. My husband, Jim, thinks the entire scene is quite amusing and just watches and laughs. I’ve had to dig out the strawberry bushes and replant into tall containers so that I can at least have a few for us. They’re great sharing with each other, not so much with us. They are quite funny. As soon as they look up and see me coming they start gobbling them down as fast as they can. Again, they crack me up every single day.

  • dchassett

    I can just imagine your home when your daughter’s hamster got eaten. Yikes! Tasty meal for your poodle, but awwww your poor daughter.

  • Shawna

    Dogs have only been eating processed kibble for a very very short time in evolutionary history. They may look completely different (some at least) from a wolf but their digestive tracts and digestive abilities are quite similar.

  • Shawna

    Uh oh!! That’s not good!!!! :) I edited my post above (which I see now is being held for approval for some reason. Hopefully it appears soon). Our Staffie, when I was growing up, ate one of my grand dad’s chickens.. My dad tied what was left of the chicken around Morton’s neck and left it for several days (Morty was an inside dog but spent those several days outside). Never bothered another chicken after that…

  • Crazy4cats

    Unfortunately, my dogs are obsessed with our neighbor’s chickens. :<(

  • Shawna

    My Papillon, the mouser mentioned above, is OBSESSED with the neighbors cherry tomatoes which grow on the fence between our property.

  • Crazy4cats

    That’s funny. I was just trying to point out that most dogs don’t have to go out and hunt for any type of food whether it be meat or vegetables. They are at our mercy!

  • neezerfan

    Actually, my dog eats tomatoes from my tomato plants in the summer and my next door neighbor’s dogs eat the blackberries from her bushes. They know when stuff is ripe. Just saying….

  • Crazy4cats

    I don’t see them out picking berries and vegetables either. LOL!

  • Nickolas

    that is like comparing chimps to human! we share 99.9% dna but are remarkably different. wolves are not dogs and you would realize that by trying to make a pet out of a wolf. Pug vs. Wolf! Educate yourself about nature and domestication.

  • Nickolas

    WTF? No meat dog food cannot get more than two stars. B.S.!!!! So closed minded and stubborn. Last time I checked dogs don’t fish or run down large game. lol

  • Suzanne

    I had a Great Dane that I adored. Problem 1, short lifespan. I decided to try a Vegan dog food. Average life of a Dane 7-10 years. Mine lived 13.5 years with no cancer, no arthritis, no cataracts, no deafness. Argue please that she was a carnivore….needed meat….just like people. I haven’t eaten meat or fish or dairy for 30 years. I’m still alive!!!!
    I love taking on meat eater’s. Eat whatever you want…at your own peril♥

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi RJ

    I am happy to hear your dogs are doing well on V-Dog.

    Adding eggs is a great idea! Eggs are a really good source of animal protein. If you are OK with dairy I would also add cottage cheese. It is a good choice for dogs. And if you are not giving them meat only because the quality is lacking in commercial kibbles then you could add fresh meats from the supermarket lightly cooked.

    Either way I would not add any extra Veggies to their diet. They are getting plenty of Veggies in the V-Dog and they would benefit more from added eggs, dairy or any other animal protein!

    Omega 3′s from algae are a good vegetarian choice and they would be the first supplement I would recommend you try for your pooches.

  • RJ

    My dogs have been eating V-Dog for a while now, and they are doing very well! I do supplement with an egg and some well-cooked vegetables.

    I do not trust the dog food companies to put fresh, nutritious desirable animal parts in dog food…it is not profitable. Who really knows what is in there, I mean if bologna and hot dogs are made from unidentifiable animal parts, I would expect that what is left over from those things would be made into dog food. 100% chicken? What part of the chicken? The ovaries? Yuck! I would rather give my dog plant-based over unidentifiable any day!!!

  • Pattyvaughn

    Boy, Franklin, that’s pretty rude. I am not a liar. Yes, Kevin is VEGAN, not vegetarian, I know the difference and so does he. He is, however, gluttonous, even vegans can eat unhealthy. If you eat foods that are heavy on simple carbs and loaded with oils in huge amounts, then even vegans can be massively overweight. As I said, it’s not what you eat. It’s how much. I didn’t say it had nothing to do with eating, I said it had nothing to do with what you eat. There is a difference.
    And I don’t see how wanting to feed a dog appropriately makes people hypocritical. Do you understand the definition of hypocritical.

  • franklin

    Btw, it is common for many to group vegans with vegetarians. Since vegetarians eat milk and cheese (and usually a lot of it) they are typically not very healthy. An overweight vegetarian is possible.

    I’m glad that you have thought about eating less meat. Thank you for your thoughts as well. For the record, I do feed my dog a fish based meal because I haven’t figured out the proper diet and I’d rather be safe.

  • franklin

    Total lie. No way a vegan will be 300 lbs. A vegetarian perhaps but not a vegan. Not enough calories to maintain that weight.

    Very aware this is a dog site. I’ve just read so many comments about how dogs should eat this and dogs should eat that because its good for them but then they are hyprocritical about what they are putting into their own bodies. It is funny to me.

    Gluttony has everything to do with eating. It is “habitual greed or excess in eating.”

  • InkedMarie

    You do realize this is a dog food review site, right?

  • losul

    Franklin, I agree with most of what Patty said, except I’ve never personally known any vegetarians/vegans. So I couldn’t judge one, nor do I want to.

    You hate to be judged, yet you are judging those who choose to eat meat, and in an insultive manner. You are blaming eating meat for the obesity epidemic, when what I see is heavily processed foods, gluttony, addictions to bad carbs- potato chips, donuts, french fries, quick cereals, breads, etc, as most of the cause, and too much fat laden meat can be a contributing factor also. And then there are those who through no fault of the own, nor any weakness, who always have trouble maintaining a healthy weight, be it glandular. or whatever.

    I believe man evolved eating meat, even evolved as much as we have because of eating meat. I believe I need at least some to thrive, and I truly believe my dog needs even more than I to thrive. Nevertheless, you shouldn’t be judged because of your choices and beliefs for yourself nor your dog, IMO

    I don’t know why anyone would tell you that God designed us to meat, the Bible clearly instructs not to judge those who choose to eat meat, nor those who choose not to eat meat.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14%3A1-6&version=NIV

    I think you should feel completely free to post your opinions in non-antagonistic, non-insultive way. And any responses to you should then be done in the same way. It would much better serve you in order to get your points across.

    There was a poster here several weeks ago, who always seemed to be just the opposite, antagonistic, insultive, insistive, obstinate, even illogical, IMO, He was tolerated for several weeks and probably a couple hundred posts, before he was finally (and rightfully so, IMO) booted off. He did make a few points that at least I took to heart, but again his time would have been much better spent in a respectable manner, and he probably wouldn’t have lost his posting priviledges. Not for sure if it was him, but then it seems he returned later with a different name, and even more abusive comments, even falsely accusing others of lying.

    Post with respect and without judgement or insult, and you should get the same courtesy in response. If not, those offensive responses to you should be flagged and removed, JMHO.

  • Pattyvaughn

    It’s funny that you should say this, because the only person I know who is vegan has been vegan for over the 20 years that I have known him and he has weighed over 300 lbs the whole time and over 400 for most of it. He is also the most overweight person I know.
    I have always eaten more meat than I should, much more, and for the first 30 years of my life I was 20 or more lbs under weight. I, finally, after age 35 and a couple kids gained a little bit too much weight. Gluttony has nothing to do with what you are eating. And people being overweight has nothing to do with what dogs should eat. This is a dog food site.
    BTW, I guess I’m not a good example, because I’m not against veganism for people, just dogs, cats, etc. It just doesn’t work for me, but I freely admit I would be healthier if I ate less meat and more veggies.

  • franklin

    I’d be interested to see the body shape and medical history of those critical of this dog food. Not their dogs but themselves. Those against veganism usually preach about how we are designed by God to eat meat and that is what is best for us humans and dogs; meanwhile they are gorging out on processed, disgusting McDonalds or Olive Garden with helping size for two people. Oftentimes, vegans are called wackos because they choose to live differently than the norm. To me wacko is gluttony: walking around with calves the size of a thigh, knees and joints that have been rendered useless because they have had constant pressure because of so much weight, and heart that barely pumps the blood throughout the body. I’ll take the b-12 deficiency ;) over diabetes and swollen legs any day.

  • Cinthia Gordon

    I ordered this v-dog food directly from the company and to my asthonishment the kibble size is a bit larger and this food really smells great, it appears to be a high degree of quality. Most of my dogs eat it without a problem and are healthier than ever. This food meets standards by AAFCO and it is endorced by many welfare for animals org. I still give my dogs some meat but they are doing amazing. The food is made in a very good factory here in California.
    I’m not getting into arguing.

  • Charles

    So much protein is proven wrong I could sing a song

  • Charles

    Theu sell you so much meat with deceot

  • Charles

    Miikkee is a liar liar pants on fire

  • Charles

    My dog turned into a frog after eating Shhaawwmas meat thats not neat

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    You said, “…every dog needs what works for them”.

    I couldn’t agree with you more.

  • Cavalier mom 1

    Shame on you Shawna, Inked Mary, Betsy Greere for down voting this post below.
    This poor woman has a healthy dog thanks to a vegetarien diet. Why aren’t you happy for her?
    Shawna why did you have to lie to me claiming your kd dog would not receive any medication and covering up how much protein and phosphorus you feed to all of your dogs?
    Why lie about the poor quality of life your kidney dog suffers ?

    If you were certain about your 40-54% meat protein diet as quoted on blue buffalo wild then why defend,lie and cheat about data and twist the actual amounts back and forth?

    On the wellness complete thread you flagged me cavalier claiming I would be Tiki and got my posts deleted.

    I am not Tiki or whatever. it is your karma now that people know only your information.
    You and Hounddog lied about the textbook. They said to increase protein from 18-26% not 35 or 54% like you misconstrued the facts as well as the boove kronfeld study.

    Indeed the dogs fed a very high protein diet had glomeric lesions on the kidneys so there was harm and poor quality of life.

    It is not unusal for your dog to be still alive unlike you falsely claim.

    But quality of life can be diminished if you feed so much protein and phosphorus.

    your theory about diet for kidney disease is wrong. Proof is testimony below and your conduct.
    If you and the groupies would be right with the hogh protein meat concept why bully everyone who points out a different way?
    Why misrepresent data and studies, hide facts, lie and cheat?

    You are very dishonest.t

  • another dog mom

    Okay, my kd dog is eating V-Dog. She has undiagnosed kidney issues that she came to me with at 13 weeks old. She has had x-rays, ultrasound and of course many blood and urine test. I have tried everything from raw, to cooked, to kibble to Hills K/D for her. Since being on V-Dog she is doing better then ever. She holds her urine better, looks great and seems to feel great too. Her lab test are all good. She is stable. So my take is every dog needs what works for them. She is 4 1/2 years old.
    That is it. I will not get into an arguing match.

  • Patty

    You are very wrong to compare healthy veggies with fries and burgers. Robin knows what she/he is talking about.

  • InkedMarie

    Lol, seriously? Your dogs sneak veggies so you think that’s whist they want? You are the dog owner. It doesn’t matter what they want, you give them what is best for them. The same goes for children. They may want burgers & fries but that doesn’t mean it’s good for them.

    I’m still lol’ing about they sneak food so that must be what they want. I’ve had dogs who’ll eat poop; can’t imagine what it means that they want.

  • Robin

    I will admit that I am disappointed in the comments on this food. While I agree wholeheartedly that this review is extremely bias, I also don’t get the extreme accusations.
    Yes, I am one of “those people” who do not eat meat. I have two labs. When at a party and my dogs pass on the steak to eat salad and banana off a plate, it told me that I needed to change food. They clearly wanted the veggies. I am not “forcing my lifestyle” on my boys. They chose repeatedly. With that said, they are thriving on a vegan diet. Yes it is much like humans, we all get choices to make. Do more research if interested in vegan meals for your dog. Don’t take this person’s word for the end all. V-dog has been a good choice for my boys.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Ain’t that the truth!! Though I’m not sure ignorant is quite the right word.

  • Shawna

    You can’t help those that insist on being ignorant!! :(

  • Joe

    People usually feed vegetarian diets to dogs out of compassion for ALL animals.Sometimes a vegetarian diet can be additionally beneficial like it has been determined in studies for kd-perhaps the lower phosphorus content puts less strain on the kidneys.Sometimes vets recommend a vegetarian diet for other health concerns.

    In the end all amino acids found in meat protein are found in plant protein as well.For instance Quinoa contains all essential amino acid with high bio-availability.There are health risks that come with meat consumption.The FDA admitted that arsenic is added to chicken, for instance.Now you will argue arsenic is also found in rice.There are certain toxins though that accumulate in meat and bones and are found -based on some of the aforementioned studies-up to ten times higher amounts (in toxic measures) than in plant products or water, such as for instance fluoride or lead.
    There are also additional health benefits of plant products such as antioxidants for instance.

    In the end dogs appear to be doing very well on a vegetarian diet.

    http://www.pkdiet.com/pdf/diet/Dog_Health_Survey.pdf

    http://www.heimat-fuer-tiere.de/english/articles/med/meat_makes_you_sick.shtml

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    You said that “dogs are not obligate carnivores” and that “dogs have the digestive system of an omnivore…”

    Most here would tend to agree that dogs are not obligate carnivores.

    Our own philosophy at DFA is that dogs should be considered omnivores with a notable carnivorous bias.

    However, vegetarian diets are designed to be consumed by animals considered to be herbivores — not omnivores.

  • Joe

    I have made my point.I see what is going on here with you ‘and all other top contributors’.Good luck to you.

  • Pattyvaughn

    What part of congenital kidney disease do you not get? They die young too. And she never said the only thing she does for her dog is food, She said the high meat diet was not harming her dog. Even with medications and kidney support supplements, these dogs are not known for living past 1 1/2 years post diagnosis. Certainly, if the diet was contributing to the kidney disease, it would have had some affect before 7 to 8 years later. Her dog is not medicated, does not receive IV or subQ fluids, and is not getting dialysis or any other treatment other than food and nutraceuticals.
    And now, like Shawna and all the others, I’m done with you.

  • Joe

    Hill’s do not have scholarly practitioners.They may have scientists.I read through Shawna’s posts and no.1 am not sure about the kd diagnostic,perhaps the dog has a genetic defect, but no need to go there, and no.2 it appears that Shawna also has given the dog some natural remedies for kidney support.

  • Joe

    Your ‘VET’s diet for kidney disease HIGH in animal protein’ you are referring to is not a regular vet diet but it is the new raw kd diet by Darwin’s.And it is not a regular ‘diet high in meat protein’ at all,it contains phosphorus inhibitors and supportive herbs.As I kept trying to make my point,it is not as much the protein but the phosphorus and other factors which puts a strain on the kidneys by generally promoting excessive amounts of meat protein.

    From Darwin’s website:
    Key Benefits:

    Added herbal supplements support healthy kidney function

    Appropriate moisture content to naturally maintain essential fluid balance for kidney health.

    Low phosphorus formula

    Highly palatable, appeals to even the most finicky dogs.

    http://www.darwinspet.com/kidney-support-for-dogs/

    The diets you previously recommended for kd were not low on phosphorus at all as you did not mentioned previously that phosphorus would be an issue and recommended to senior and kd dogs ‘extra meat protein’ only without phosphorus inhibitors.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I didn’t say you were supporting them, I said they have scholarly scientists. This is the sort of thing that Shawna was talking about when she mentioned you making things up. You are taking what people say and assuming what they mean and using that as if it is in fact what they meant.
    Nobody has any idea how any dog would do on a different diet than what it was on, BUT they do know how long kidney patients usually live after diagnosis and it certainly isn’t more than 7 years WITHOUT further symptoms.

  • Joe

    I’m not supporting Hill’s diet at all and never quoted their studies.Would be interesting to know how Shawna’s dog would have responded to a vegetarien diet.Pursuant to the aformentioned study there are promising results, perhaps due to the lower phosphorus content in vegetarian food than meat.Quinua and tofu have high bio-availability while being low on phosphorus.

  • Pattyvaughn

    The problem is that they were finding that the adjustments that vets were recommending right off the bat actually did harm. There is a time and place for reducing protein in KD patients, but reducing it too early was found to be detrimental. However, quality of protein may also play a factor, which is why for early KD I would stick with meat protein, but no kibble.
    BTW, the vet recommended diet for KD, Hill’s Prescription Diet K/D is known for allowing dogs to live about a year to a year and a half post diagnosis, and it is nearly vegetarian and designed by vet nutritionists, those scholarly scientists you speak so highly of. Shawna’s dog has lived quite a few times that amount, unmedicated. In all my years working for a vet, that was completely unheard of.

  • Joe

    There are many studies out there on the issue but it does appear that excessive amounts of phosphorus is a negative factor and health concern in a healthy person or dog.Protein itself may not be the issue but the other factors that come with the meat consumption.

  • Pattyvaughn

    If they had compassion for dogs, they wouldn’t own them, because they were not made to be herbivore, or they would feed them as nature intended, because they were not made to be herbivores.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Joe, I worked for my vets for 14 years, I don’t have to ask. You don’t have to modify the diet of a dog in early stages of KD, except under special circumstances. The prescription diets were made for late stage kidney failure, yet most vets prescribe them at the first sign of KD, even though it have been proven that those diets are not appropriate at that time. For this reason alone, I would not put over much stock in most vets advice about nutrition. But in adition to that, I have had many of the same classes in nutrition that the vets get and they are severely lacking. Most are seminars put on by those big name companies that want them to recommend their food. A total of 2 of my classes were not put on by those companies. The first was large animal nutrition. It included nutrition for cattle, horses, goats,sheep, pigs, etc. including some of the more common zoo animals. It was a 3 credit class, so you can guess that it didn’t go into too much detail. We did learn to formulate a horses diet since that was this professor’s special interest.
    The second class was small animal nutrition. It covered cats, dogs, rats, mice, ferrets, guinea pigs, several different pet birds, common pet reptiles, etc. We also had guest speakers from all the major dog food manufacturers and classes in the proper use of prescription diets. It was also a 3 credit class. I’m sure you can tell that it couldn’t have gone into too much detail.
    That is the other reason that I don’t ask too many vets about nutrition. You may not be capable of learning anything on your own, but I definitely am, so I read everything I can find and I continue to learn.
    If you are happy with your choice to force dogs to be vegan then that’s fine, for your dogs, but it isn’t fine for mine and it isn’t in line with the beliefs of the author of this site or the other regular posters or nature. So you are going to have someone disagree with you at ever turn on this site. That’s what we’re here for.

  • Joe

    These ‘whack jobs’ are actually either true scientists or animal lovers who love ALL animal including cows, rabbits,pigs and don’t eat meat out of compassion.

  • Joe

    Not exactly accurate-here is what you said:

    “Alcohol can cause cirrhosis as can high fructose corn syrup (and large amounts of fructose from fruits),”

    There are alot of theories out there some of them make no sense at all.

  • Joe

    What did I ‘make up’?Are you remembering your own posts?You stated all of that in earlier posts, I can quote them without a problem if you wish.

  • Joe

    When you have kd a special diet low in phosphorus is recommended.Ask your doctor and veterinarian.

  • Joe

    High phosphorus levels in meat is a health concern-the right amount of phosphorus is of essence-when you have 50% meat content in a dog food or more you may feed too much phosphorus even in a healthy dog.A lot of dogs die of kidney disease these days and kidney is often an issue in senior dogs.One last information—It does appear that excessive amounts of phosphorus can harm the kidneys. You for sure did not say ‘in kd dog or senior dog I recommend a diet high in meat protein but you also need to add phosphorus inhibitors since phosphorus is a concern.’You simply recommend ‘high meat protein diets’ which come with ‘high phosphorus diets’. In addition research on the issue show mixed results regarding high/low protein diets in re. to kd. (w/o phosphorus at issue only protein).

    Dr. Joseph Vassalotti, chief medical officer at the National Kidney Foundation, says:
    “Other studies have suggested that once diagnosed with kidney disease, weight loss may slow kidney disease progression, but this is the first research study to support losing belly fat and limiting phosphorus consumption as a possible way to prevent kidney disease from developing.”

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/268144.php

  • InkedMarie

    You’ve been more patient than I’d have been.

  • Joe

    Appreciate the article-as long as phosphorus is kept low (possibly with phosphorus inhibitors) a diet high in meat protein doesn’t appear to have an adverse effect on kd dogs.Shawna kept recommending to kd dogs and senior dogs ‘a diet high in meat protein’.Phosphorus is a concern with kd dogs.They used to think high protein is an issue-it is not but high amounts of meat comes usually with high amounts of phosphorus-Phosphorus is a known negative factor in kd- hope this makes sense.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    In an important article entitled, “Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function” written by Dr. Kenneth C. Bovée (DVM, MMedSc) professor of Clinical Studies at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine and published in the Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian (1998), the author concludes:

    “The continued use of protein restriction in the absence of scientific evidence deserves thoughtful consideration. I would suggest that the dogma and mythology of a possible benefit are so embedded in the thought process of veterinarians and owners that these cannot be easily dislodged despite the scientific evidence. I would refer to this as the myth of dietary protein and characterize it as a negative myth.”

    Please be sure to check out that article. And of course, the numerous references Dr. Bovee uses to support his position.

    By the way, Joe, when someone disagrees with conventional medicine or openly suggests an alternative approach to a health issue does not automatically mean a person is practicing medicine without a license.

  • LabsRawesome

    You are irrational and Shawna is done talking to you.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Some do.

  • Joe

    Did not say that but for sure they don’t recommend a meat based diet high in protein and high in phosphorus.

  • Joe

    Of course because ‘she said so’.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Since when do vets in general recommend a vegan diet for dogs with KD like you have?

  • Joe

    Wow-your research of 4 dogs only is worth the effort and my research of thousands of people and dogs of 35 scientific studies worldwide you can read the references below the study, not?That is so irrational.

  • LabsRawesome

    Agree.

  • Shawna

    I’m sorry, I’ve never been this rude before and “I don’t want to offend you” but the research is there, you are just not worth the effort… Take care…

  • LabsRawesome

    Joe, the same logic applies to your theory that dogs can thrive on vegetarian diets. So you found a few whack jobs that think veggie diets are good for dogs, do you want a cookie?

  • Joe

    Can you repeat the peer-reviewed article? All Shawna has provided is an article with 4 dogs that showed that a high protein diet did not damage the kidneys-not much proof to me.

  • Shawna

    Wow, you make things up as you go along… I clearly remember saying that grain fed, feedlot living cattle are not healthy. I clearly remember saying that I eat and feed organic and grass finished (when able) due to this reason.

    I do feel that today’s grains are not natural in the human or canine diet and I get that information from Professor and scientist Loren Cordain of Colorado State University.

    I noted that not all will be intolerant of all lectins but most will be intolerant of at least one and wheat is problematic in many.

    I also remember stating my diet of mainly vegetables with smaller amounts of fruits and meat and sprouted grains…. I also said I commend you for your commitment but feel it is not for everyone and especially not for canine and felines. You really seem to be placing words in others mouths to help further your cause… We all see it Joe…

  • JellyCat

    You were given enough peer reviewed references, in fact I’m sure you can do you own literature research.
    I’m just trying to point out the fact that if you want to feed vegan you can, your dog will be able to tolerate it. However, you choices are limited as in this instance you’re forced to feed highly processed surrogates. By the way, this particular product has some unhealthy additives which are there because they are cheaper and not healthier. For this reason, I wouldn’t consider feeding it even if I believed that vegan diet is the bet for my dog.

  • Joe

    There are lots of dictators in the world that have a lot of followers too.Shawna this country has thousands of nutritionists and veterinarians.You found a few who support your theory?These people are not scientists or true scholars.There is no evidence that this theory is true.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Yes, but your dog loving them is not what makes them healthy.

  • Joe

    I have read the article you have provided-not impressed.Sample size was only 4 dogs-lots of room for error and all it was said was in conclusion:”These results do not support the hypothesis that feeding a high protein diet had a significant adverse effect on renal function or morphology.”A high meat diet did not help with kidney disease.The scholarly article I have provided showed that a vegetarian diet put much less strain on the kidneys than a meat based diet.

  • LabsRawesome

    EXACTLY.

  • Shawna

    Actual studies on canines

    “The only exception was found in dogs fed a reduced-protein diet, which
    failed to appropriately adjust renal tubular excretion of sodium and
    phosphate. The only advantage of reduced dietary protein in this study
    was a reduction in blood urea nitrogen (BUN). Disadvantages of
    reduced-protein diets were reduced glomerular filtration rate (GFR) and
    renal plasma flow. In the second study, the hypothesis that large
    amounts of dietary protein sustain renal hyperfunction and produce
    progressive glomerulosclerosis in dogs as previously reported in rats
    was tested. Results failed to find a pattern of deterioration of renal
    function over 4 y. Light microscopic changes and electron microscopy
    also failed to find glomerular injury similar to that reported in
    rodents. These results do not support the hypothesis that feeding a high
    protein diet had a significant adverse effect on renal function or
    morphology.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941208

  • Joe

    ‘not designed to help dogs achieve the best health..’-says who?What kind of ‘science’ are you talking about?Are you also like others talking about non-peer reviewed articles of some people online making outrages claims?If you would study the scientific evidence and articles I have provided written by true scholars and know what I know backed up by science I’m sure you would be making different choices.

  • LabsRawesome

    I never said OBLIGATE Carnivore. Those are your words. And dogs require zero carbohydrates to live. I am glad you agree that you need a reality check.

  • Shawna

    Google — are you ready for the list? Here’s just a few that can be found online.

    Dr. Chris Collins
    Dr. Bruce Symes
    Dr. Anita Moore
    Dr. Karen Becker
    Dr. Peter Dobias
    Dr. Kim Bloomer Veterinary Naturopath
    Dr. Amy Nesselrodt
    Dr. Tom Lonsdale
    Dr. Ian Billinghurst
    Dr. Martin Goldstein
    Dr. Stephen Blake
    Dr. Jeannie Thomason Veterinary Naturopath
    Dr. Christina Chambreau
    Dr. Barbara Royal

    and a few nutritionists

    Lew Olson
    Steve Brown
    Mary Straus
    Kymythy Schultz
    Beth Taylor

    Phosphorus doesn’t damage a healthy kidney and doesn’t cause kd but once in kidney failure it MAY need to be restricted in early disease and will need to be restricted as the disease progresses. Do your homework on this Joe.. PLEASE

  • JellyCat

    Joe, with all due respect, I do understand that you believe in that vegan diet is the best diet. However, science and believe are different things. Believe is more like a religion and has nothing to do with facts. Indeed, I’m pretty sure your dog can sustain life on this kibble as it has all, artificially added by the way, essential amino acids. And of course vitamins and other micronutrients. However, it is highly unlikely you would be able to sustain your dog’s health on home made vegan diet.
    This particular product marketed to people who believe that vegan diet is great for dogs, and is not designed to help dogs achieve the best health outcomes.

  • Joe

    Dogs are NOT obligate carnivores and there is SCIENCE that points out that dogs have the digestive system of an omnivore and genetics that show they can digest carbs better than some people like you believe.There are many examples of happy vegetarian dogs.REALITY? I think a reality check is warranted!

  • LabsRawesome

    Joe, you are ridiculous. Dogs are carnivores, no matter how much you want them to be vegetarians. If you want a vegetarian pet, get a rabbit. And recommending foods is not practicing medicine. You need to stop living in your little fantasy world, and come back to reality.

  • Joe

    According to your theories we cannot drink milk,eat tomatoes,soy, tofu, legumes lots of fruits or any grains. According to what you said meat is the healthiest thing to eat-that’s so outdated.

  • Joe

    Since when do vets in general recommend a diet for dogs with kd high in meat AND phosphorus like you have?