Purina Active Senior 7 Plus (Dry)

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Rating: ★☆☆☆☆

Purina Active Senior 7 Plus dog food receives the Advisor’s lowest rating of 1 star.

The Purina Active Senior 7 Plus product line includes one dry dog food. Although this formulation appears to be designed for senior dogs, we found no AAFCO nutritional adequacy statements for these dog foods on the Purina website.

Purina Active Senior Seven Plus

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 30% | Fat = 9% | Carbs = 53%

Ingredients: Ground yellow corn, corn gluten meal, ground wheat, meat and bone meal, soybean hulls, soybean meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of vitamin E), animal digest, propylene glycol, sugar, water, phosphoric acid, salt, sorbic acid (a preservative), l-lysine monohydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, potassium chloride, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), zinc sulfate, added color (red 40, yellow 5, blue 2), ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, vitamin B12 supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 8.1%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis26%8%NA
Dry Matter Basis30%9%53%
Calorie Weighted Basis29%22%50%

The first item in this dog food is corn. Corn is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

For this reason, we do not consider corn a preferred component in any dog food.

The second ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.

Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.

This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The third ingredient is wheat. Wheat is another cereal grain and subject to the same issues as corn (previously discussed).

The fourth ingredient is meat and bone meal, a dry “rendered product from mammal tissues, including bone, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents”.1

Meat and bone meal can have a lower digestibility than most other meat meals.

Scientists believe this decreased absorption may be due to the ingredient’s higher ash and lower essential amino acid content.2

What’s worse, this particular item is anonymous. It doesn’t even specify the source animal.

Even though meat and bone meals are still considered protein-rich meat concentrates, we do not consider a generic ingredient like this a quality item.

The fifth ingredient includes soybean hulls. The hulls are the skins of soybeans and a waste product remaining after processing soybeans into oil and meal.

Soybean hulls are often used as inexpensive fillers to dilute the energy content of various animal feeds.

We consider soybean hulls a lower quality pet food ingredient and of little nutritional value to a dog.

The sixth ingredient is soybean meal. Soybean meal is relatively useful by-product — what remains of soybeans after all the oil has been removed.

Although soybean meal contains 48% protein, this ingredient would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.

And less costly plant-based products like this can notably boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The seventh ingredient is animal fat. Animal fat is a generic by-product of rendering, the same high-temperature process used to make meat meals.

Since there’s no mention of a specific animal, this item could come from almost anywhere: restaurant grease, slaughterhouse waste, diseased cattle — even (although not likely) euthanized pets.

We do not consider generic animal fat a quality ingredient.

The eighth ingredient is animal digest. Animal digest is a chemically hydrolyzed mixture of animal by-products that is usually sprayed onto the surface of a dry kibble to improve its taste.

Purina Active Senior 7 Plus contains the controversial food moisturizer, propylene glycol. Propylene glycol has been banned by the FDA for use in making cat food.

But it can still be found in some lower quality dog foods.

Next we find sugar. Sugar is always an unwelcome addition to any dog food. Because of its high glycemic index, it can unfavorably impact the blood glucose level of any animal soon after it is eaten.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With five notable exceptions

First, we’re always disappointed to find artificial coloring in any dog food. Coloring is used to make the product more appealing to you, not your dog. After all, do you really think your dog cares what color his kibble is?

Next, this product also contains menadione, a controversial form of vitamin K linked to liver toxicity, allergies and the abnormal break-down of red blood cells.

Garlic oil may be a controversial item. We say “may be” here because we are not certain of the oil’s chemical relationship to raw garlic itself.

Although most experts favor the ingredient for its numerous health benefits, garlic (in rare cases) has been linked to Heinz body anemia in dogs.3

However, the limited professional literature we surveyed provided no definitive warnings regarding the use of garlic — especially when used in small amounts (as it likely is here).

Next, we find no mention of probiotics, friendly bacteria applied to the surface of the kibble after processing.

And lastly, the minerals listed here do not appear to be chelated. And that can make them more difficult to absorb. Non-chelated minerals are usually associated with lower quality dog foods.

Purina Active Senior 7 Plus Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Purina Active Senior 7 Plus looks to be a below-average dry dog food.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 30%, a fat level of 9% and estimated carbohydrates of about 53%.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 31%.

Near-average protein. Below-average fat. And above-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

When you consider the protein-boosting effect of the corn gluten meal and soybean meal, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a limited amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Purina Active Senior 7 Plus is a plant-based kibble using a limited amount of anonymous meat and bone meal as its main source of animal protein, thus earning the brand 1 star.

Not recommended.

A Final Word

This review is designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food. However, our rating system is not intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in specific health benefits for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyzed this product, please be sure to read our article, “The Problem with Dog Food Reviews

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt consult a veterinarian for help.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Please feel free to share your comments below.

Notes and Updates

12/24/2009 Original review
07/27/2010 Review updated
05/15/2012 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials, 2008 Edition
  2. Shirley RB and Parsons CM, Effect of Ash Content on Protein Quality of Meat and Bone Meal, Department of Animal Sciences, University of Illinois, Poultry Science, 2001 80: 626-632
  3. Yamato et al, Heinz Body hemolytic anemia with eccentrocytosis from ingestion of Chinese chive (Allium tuberosum) and garlic (Allium sativum) in a dog, Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 41:68-73 (2005)
Dog Food Advisor IconThe Dog Food Advisor publishes independent reviews to help pet owners make better choices when shopping for dog food.


  • Addie

    I always read the comments on this forum, but rarely comment. While I do like hearing both sides of the story, I don’t understand why aimee always tries pushing a pro grains argument into every discussion. I work in a local pet store, so I read all these comments in case I come across someone’s pet who shows signs of what Richard, Shawna, or any others discuss. aimee and melissa keep stressing how only some dogs have bad reactions as if those dogs don’t matter. The owners with dogs who do have bad reactions feel hopeless and confused, and it’s hard to find information on what’s happening, so why does aimee find it necessary to constantly dismiss any information given citing issues caused by grains? I’ve seen hundreds of miserable dogs with missing hair, dull coats, and loose stools be cured with a grain free diet. Some dogs do fine on grains, yes, but some do horribly on them, and those people come here to find out what’s happening. I really enjoy this website, and I tell a lot of customers to check it out, but it really annoys me having someone who constantly pushes one sided research into every discussion. I ask customers to come to this website with an open mind, which is the whole point of this forum I think, but some people clearly have their minds made up, and their agendas set. I don’t want to tell customers to come here if each thread turns into a dramatic argument, which is what happened here by melissa using passive aggressive remarks regarding Shawna. Shawna has always been one of my favorite commentators because she’s always incredibly polite, and so informative. I’m not blaming you Mike for allowing this behavior, but instead think maybe the commentators should remember we’re all adults, and should be treated with respect. People come to this website for information, and I think people who politely present it like Richard, DogFoodNinja, and Shawna should always feel welcome here.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Shawna… I don’t see anyone wanting you to go. Looks to me like you have no choice but to stay.

    Since you joined our DFA discussions, our blog has grown and so have your fans. You’ve developed quite a following. So, please stay around. We love you.

    If you still have any doubts, please be sure to re-read Richard’s response to your question. Chief White Hair speaks for me, too. :)

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    To All Involved in the Recent Dispute… I’ve intentionally tried to stay away from the recent dispute that’s been going on here for the past few days. But unfortunately, I can no longer stand by and watch some of our most regular (and nicest) members of our community cause each other so much unnecessary stress and emotional pain.

    Even though our active discussion area receives about 100 to 150 comments each day, that’s actually way less than 1% of the total number of daily visitors to this website.

    This week, for example, The Dog Food Advisor has hosted more than 18,000 visitors (and 90,000 page views) each and every day! And that’s amazing. According to Google Analytics and Alexa.com, we’ve now officially become the busiest website about dog food on the Internet.

    And that’s what concerns me.

    You see, these many thousands of impressionable folks are watching us — and our discussions — every minute of every day. They’re judging our knowledge, the value of this website, our reviews and (most importantly) the friendliness and warmth of our community.

    So, personal attacks like some of the ones I’ve seen here lately have nothing to do with dog food. They offend and frighten new visitors — and make them too fearful to ask questions.

    Not to mention, these mean-spirited remarks are a source of embarrassment to all of us — and cannot be tolerated.

    Let there be no mistake. All comments that have anything whatsoever to do with canine nutrition or dog food will always be welcome — no matter how long, no matter how detailed and no matter what the level of scholarship or education.

    I know some visitors (and some commentators, too) have complained that these more in-depth discussions can make it difficult to locate information and comments about the individual dog foods themselves.

    But until I come up with a more definitive solution for this community wide problem, we’ll all have to learn to live with each others’ remarks and presentation styles as they are. Tolerance must be the guiding principle for all of us.

    If after reading this comment, you still find it necessary to criticize, demean or insult a fellow commentator, you can expect your comment to be immediately removed.

    Please take just a moment and think of how truly important it is to respect the opinions and posting styles of others — and to allow each participant the right to express herself without any fear of unreasonable criticism, verbal retribution or personal attacks.

    Thanks for listening.

  • aimee

    Melissa,

    Thanks for your kind comment. I do try to remain objective and post factual information. I appreciate the comment that you have seen many dogs consume grain based commercial diets without all the effects as posted here. (Heck not even all holistic veterinarians think grains in a diet are problematic for all dogs and DogtorJ recommends potato based diets for those using commercial foods, yet others vilify that ingredient.)

    There may be at issue a population bias, meaning that the owners of dogs that consume diets containing ingredients that are vilified, and do well with them, are not posting in these types of forums.

    The field of nutrogenomics is in its infancy and I have no doubt that there are genetic subsets that are intolerant of particular food types. But I think it is incorrect to make broad based statements based on a subset of the population. I think it more correct to say gluten causes villous atrophy in a susceptible population which then takes into account all the people/dogs who can eat gluten without problems.

    I also don’t like to see cause attributed when none is established. Villous atrophy for example, is a tissue level diagnosis and in my opinion should not be made without the tissue in hand. (By my understanding, if widespread it should lead to some pretty profound GI signs!) So if an animal/person improves after removing a particular ingredient from the diet than I think the best we can say to describe that observation is to call it an “adverse food reaction to ingredient “X”. Just my 2 cents

  • melissa

    Shawna-

    A wee bit sensitive? Lmao. I made a statement to Aimee, in re to how I feel reading this blog as of late-and several other posters have mentioned the same thing in the past, so get over it. Calling you out on your beliefs? Since when does a poster have to feel that by questioning statements and presenting opposing thought processes, it must certaintly be a personal vendetta or attack on another?

    Mike S has always entertained opposing thoughts and expressions of belief, so unless he states that we must all agree and hold hands singing “Kumbaya”, I shall continue to present my theories, beliefs and opinions. And, I for one will continue to do it without throwing a temper tantrum and threatening to leave the playground.

    And, I stand by my statement that in the thousands of dogs that we have dealt with, gluten/grain issues have seemed to be the exception to the rule, rather than the rule. For those that have sensitivities, it makes sense to remove them from their diet-but just because I am allergic to strawberries does not mean they should be removed from everyone’s diet-

  • aimee

    Hi Sandy,

    There are several types of study protocols. Many are similar to the type of research done on people. Retrospective studies may be done by looking at data already collected by veterinary schools from animals brought to the hospital for care. If interested in GI, than the records of all the dogs that had GI biopsies would be gleaned.

    In prospective studies dogs with a particular problem are offered reduced costs for participating in the study. The dogs are then assigned to a treatment group. Other studies are done using purpose bred dogs in a research setting. I believe using dogs from shelters is falling out of favor.

    In digestion studies input and output is measured. Sometimes intestinal content is collected as well. I’m not aware of any studies comparing high vs low protein over a lifetime or grain vs grain free. The only lifetime study I know of was the one done by Purina.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com Richard Darlington

    Shawna – aka SWOOPING EAGLE

    Do not talk such nonsense.

    You are SWOOPING EAGLE not “Rodent Running” or “Hare Hiding”

    You are not going anywhere – I FORBID IT !!!

    You were named SWOOPPING EAGLE because it is your destiny to fly above ordinary experience to gain a perspective of the world that is different and one that many cannot, or will not ever have – but some will look up and see you…and perhaps their ideas will be influenced by SWOOPING EAGLES perspective.

    It is not for the Eagle to come to earth and battle the Fox or the Badger – let the Fox and Badger be their unique selfs. They have their own lessons to teach. Others can decide which perspective “speaks to them”. We learn something from every perspective – even ones that are sometimes wrong. Your destiny is to soar…and leave results up to the Great Spirit.

    Chief White Hair has spoken.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Well said, Shawna!! & Richard!!

    Sandy those are excellent questions. Most studies are performed with shelter dogs. The trial is short term, a few days to weeks, and the dogs are killed and necropsied. The Research uses euphemisms to obscure the fact that they kill the dogs. It’s one of the reasons that I find it appalling that certain people will only accept research done on dogs… In order to get tose answers it means the senseless killing of more dogs!

    I like Richard’s experimental scenario better! Iknow from first and second hand experience that Shawna is correct. I’ve counseled thousands of people (only a couple hundred pet owners, directly) to clean up their, or their pet’s, diet (and I’m not counting those whose lives were improved by environmental clean up, which is mostly what I do.) and its dramatically improved their lives. Richard, Shawna and I focus on the whole picture, and the results invivo. That’s quality of life for the living, not dead science.

    I will say this, Shawna goes, I go, too.

  • sandy

    Well I wouldn’t know as much today if all of yall weren’t around. Everything has 2 (or more) sides and we wouldn’t get all this info and cross-examination info to brings things to light. So keep it up!! In the end, it’s my decision on what I feed my fur babies after all, and nor did I feel “beat into feeding” a certain way.

    Actually maybe owners who feed Beneful or Boots and Barkley deserve a beating!!

  • Alexandra

    Shawna,

    Please dont go! You are one of my favorite commentators to read here. Dealing with a Shepherd that has an issue with Candida, you and Richard have been instrumental to me turning him around.

  • Shawna

    Melissa ~~ what a SHOCKER!!!

    We each and every one of us has a right to our opinions. I, Toxed, and others don’t try to “beat” anything into anyone til you and Aimee call us out and force us to defend our opinions…

    I’ll go away if enough people on this site feel the same way that you do.. Here’s your chance people — let me know what ya think!!

  • Shawna

    Aimee ~~ you wrote “The true prevelence isn’t known. If it was at all common though I’d expect that there would be publications addressing it.”

    That is exactly the point, it is unknown at this time — even in humans. Food intolerances/allergies is grossly under diagnosed in humans. I know MANY people who have a condition in which food is causing villous atrophy that was not diagnosed by a doctor. My own case would have never been diagnosed if I hadn’t been so obstinant about finding a root cause for my symptoms. I would be on several different medications now controlling the symptoms (like hypothyroid) of my intolerance/allergy as well.. I tried for 10ish years and MULTIPLE doctors before finding the doctor that finally (after on 5 minutes with me) made the diagnosis.

    Dogtor J also fought the medical establishment for his diagnosis.

    I became friends with a person in California that was on disability her symptoms were soooo severe. She told me she was suicidal even. She saw multiple doctors and not one of them suggested a food intolerance. However, her symptoms were too similar to mine for me to be quite and I suggested. She tried an elimination diet. She is a different person today and I have a life long friend. She has told me that I “saved her life”.

    On a local forum I belong to I suggested a mother take her 2 year old daughter off grains to see if it would clear up the psoriasis her daughter was experiencing — her doctors had given up on her. Within days of stopping the grains (oatmeal and buckwheat) she started clearing up and mom reported her mood was even better. So, mom went off grains too and also reported feeling better. The very long conversation can be found here (if anyone wants to confirm my story)– this is kinda the middle of the convo. http://www.completelynourished.org/profiles/blog/show?id=2667312%3ABlogPost%3A11596&commentId=2667312%3AComment%3A13221&xg_source=activity (The founder of this website, by the way, was seriously ill due to MSG.)

    And there are SO many more that are affected and learning of their intolerance thru laypersons NOT their MDs. You would see this if you quit worrying about the studies and started talking with people more.

    SO my thinking is, if it is this under diagnosed in humans (who supposedly should be getting a good deal of their daily diets from grains) how could it not be more prevalant, yet under diagnosed, in dogs that have NO biological requirement for grains? Do you really think that the positive results Richard, DFN and others have seen are all a bunch of hype?

    Some of my symptoms that improved when I eliminated dairy (or mostly eliminated dairy that is) — arthritis like joint pain, tendonitis, hypothyroid, chronic sinusitis and more. How many people actually have these or similar symptoms but are on medications to suppress them? These symtoms all started developing in my early to mid 30′s. Oh — I had NO gastrointestinal issues.

  • melissa

    Aimee-

    I find your comments relevant and informative. I hate when I come to a blog of any kind and its domineered by one or two people attempting to beat the rest in to seeing things their way. Some days I come here and it seems that the “meat” of most responses is simply a multitude of links for people attempting to prove their theory is better than the next person’s.

    I think for SOME, glutens, grains, potatoes are a problem, but not for all, and one can not automatically link a reaction in one dog to the general population. An itchy dog can be just about anything, however, its human nature to automatically think “Well, my dog itched due to x, so therefore, the owner of the other dog should do y” In 20 plus years of rescue, we have dealt with thousands of dogs-and most ate “run of the mill” or commercial dog foods such as Iams, Purina etc, and I have yet to have experienced such food issues being commonplace. It just has not been our experience here.

  • http://brotherscomplete.com Richard Darlington

    Sandy

    EXCELLENT point IMO – common sense, practical and astute !!

    That grains and potatoes (at least what goes into dog food at this point) create health problems in the vast majority of dogs is no longer in doubt for me. Through the years with thousands of dogs coming through our store and hearing the litany of dog problems, and the mostly inane reasons given to our customers by Vets for the cause of them, I’m not remotely surprised that most veterinarians are selling Hills Science diet and “prescription” diets in their stores and are basically clueless about the problems grain and potato cause in dogs. I’m not saying they are corrupt – just clueless.

    If I could design a way to find out which nutrients worked and which didn’t I’d watch thousands of living dogs with problems and then alter their diet until the problems went away. When over 90% of the problems go away if grain and potato are removed – which is the case – then I’d look for the reasons why…not state that it can’t be so because someone hasn’t done specific research to prove it yet. Then after dogs died I’d do autopsies to learn what I could from their physical condition.

    The real and best proof in my opinion is to be found in real life – not theory or studies that often times are WAY too specific and short and don’t take into account the ENTIRE biological system over time – not just a few weeks.

    You can do a study to prove the a biological system needs calcium but it will not tell you that you need calcium to be in balance with magnesium or phosphorus unless you look at a bigger picture.

  • aimee

    Toxed2loss,

    I’ve never questioned the importance of meat based sources.

    I was reporting information that I had recently learned and thought was interesting.

  • sandy

    I’m just wondering how many dogs are used for scientific study. Are people donating them to science after death? Are their guts being analyzed at a microscopic level? How do “scientists/researchers” know what they know? Just by live feeding trials? Blood/stool specimens? How would researchers know what a life long diet of grains or vegan or high protein does to the intestines and how they affect nutrition absorption and how it affects body organs? Since I don’t think we were really interested in dog diet/health until fairly recently. If there hasn’t been alot of research and testing done on live or dead specimens, how would we really know the prevalence of anything?

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    I’ve always ackowledged that gluten enteropathy exists in dogs other than the Irish Setter… so yes I do understand that : ) The true prevelence isn’t known. If it was at all common though I’d expect that there would be publications addressing it.

    P.S. How do you link to the SACN book? I can’t seem to find the way to be able to read it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    Well, Aimee,

    This morning I was going to try posting the rest of the lengthy list of citations that validated The importance of meat based protein sources, when I read your latest post.

    I’ve got your message loud and clear. You just want to argue. I don’t have the health to spare to play your game. You aren’t open to learning anything.
    I know a citation war with a closed mind goes nowhere, as one can find peer-reviewed citations of minutia to support any view point. Let’s agree to drop it.

  • Shawna

    There are other reasons, Aimee, to eliminate gluten (and other) grains from the diet besides villous atrophy.. But you already know this..

    And, the book clearly states in Irish Setters and believed to affect other breeds. Simply because they haven’t done a study on it yet doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You understand this right?

  • aimee

    Toxed2loss,
    Hmm I’ll try again. In the fresh state an animal based protein will likely have a higher digestibility over plant based protein. But protein sources in kibble are often altered from their natural state. Rendering, drying and extrusion can all decrease digestibility. Additionally, chicken for example, as most commonly used (necks, backs and frames) has a lot of connective tissue associated with it (bone ligament and cartilage) vs chicken breast or thighs. These factors can then explain why a plant based protein source when incorporated in dog food may have a higher digestibility than an animal based source. There is no value judgment here. It is just a neutral statement that I do not interpret as being denigrating to meat.

    The paper I cited evaluated sources as they are used in pet food production.
    I cited the source to support the statement I made that that protein digestibility of a plant based source can be greater that an animal based source once incorporated into kibble. For example from table 4 the ileal CP digestibility for soy bean meal was 85.3% while that for poultry meal was 72.7%.

    I did not cite the source as support for my understanding of why this occurs. That was not directly addressed in the paper though this statement alludes to composition being a factor. “Nutrient composition and bioavailability of animal by-products is inconsistent. This is due partly to the fact that any number of animal tissues are included in the animal by-product sold to the petfood manufacturer.”

    In regards to lamb meal, I judged a source as being not needed so I humbly apologize for that oversite. In this paper the mean AA digestibility of lamb meal was 62%, the lowest of the sources tested. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=lamb%20meal%20digestibility%20dog

    I posted the information about digestibility only as a source of information without any intent to exalt or denigrate any pet food ingredient. My only purpose was to make people aware that animal based protein sources as used in pet food may not always be highly digestible.

    My comment “I’m not sure why you said dogs can only absorb carbs from a plant based source.” Was in response to this:
    Nov 22 time 1:51 “The short digestive track of dogs makes it extremely difficult for the dog’s system to absorb anything more than carbs from those sources, leaving the harder to obtain nutrients and protein to get “crapped out.”

    It seemed to me you were saying protein from a plant source would be defecated out rather than digested and absorbed.

  • Gordon

    Mike P – It’s all water under the bridge as far as I’m concerned. Have a good festive season and New Year as well.

  • Gordon

    aimee – Do you really read all those posts people post or were you already aware of them? Personally, I honestly don’t read them as it can just take up too much of one’s already hectic schedule. Unless of course, reading them benefits or relates to your profession. Ahhh I’m a cheeky bugger :P

  • Gordon

    Your skin is thick aimee? Ewww, I prefer a woman to have soft, supple and feminine skin, lol.

    Anyway, between you and I only, ;) ….I know that you really do know that a diet rich in meat and bone and in its raw state just as per Mother Nature’s intentions for dogs, biological wolves, is best for them. I understand your vested interest in your continued attempts to convey and influence otherwise. However, in more subtle ways in recent times. ;)

    Tell those fat cats at Iams or Nestle to send some more of you spin doctors on these doggie blogs ;) It’s all fun.

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    No need to rewrite the book: ) I have always acknowledged that gluten sensitivity exists as a very uncommon autosomal recessive genetic disorder seen primarily in Irish Setters just as it is decscribed in SACN. I’ve read the research on this topic.

    What I haven’t seen is anything that supports the idea that villous atrophy occurs independent of this uncommon genetic disorder.

    Where we disagree is that gluten should be removed from the diet of all dogs because a miniscule number of dogs have a genetic condition known as gluten enteropathy. Similarly, I don’t believe that all people need to avoid wheat, barley, rye, oats and buckwheat simply because a subset of people have Celiac Disease.

    No where in SACN does it say that all dogs should have gluten removed from their diet. Along those same lines, SACN does not say all dogs should have beef or dairy removed from their diet simply because some dogs are allergic/intolerant to it.

  • Shawna

    Oh and yes, I suppose an intolerance to beef (or the hormones and antibiotics in some beef) would cause enough colon inflammation (colitis) to create permeability. Chicken, after all, causes colitis in my dog Gizmo (NSAIDs as well).

  • Shawna

    No Aimee I am not saying it, Small Animal Clinical Nurition is saying it. Should we ask them to remove the data from their book because you are not able to find research material?

    “GLUTEN- AND GLIADIN-FREE FOODS
    Several potential antigens are found in flour when cereal grains are processed. One polypeptide, gliadin, is found in wheat, barley, rye,
    buckwheat and oat flours. Gliadin is responsible for gluten-sensitive enteropathies in people and dogs. Homologous gliadin polypeptides
    are not present in whole grains and flours produced from rice and corn.
    In people, gluten-induced enteropathy or celiac disease is an important malabsorptive disorder. An analogous condition, termed wheatsensitive
    enteropathy, has been identified in Irish setter dogs and is suspected to affect dogs of other breeds. Affected animals develop
    small bowel diarrhea due to malabsorption secondary to villous atrophy. Gluten- and gliadin-free foods are most commonly recommended
    for managing dogs suspected of having wheat-sensitive enteropathy. In most cases, withdrawal of the offending gliadin antigen from
    the diet results in resolution of the villous atrophy and clinical signs.” https://s3.amazonaws.com/mmi_sacn5/Chapter%2048%20-%20Introduction%20to%20GI-Pancreatic%20Disorders.pdf

    And YES, certain casein proteins in dairy also causes villous atrophy (in humans and presumably in dogs).

  • melissa

    Hi Sandy-

    NO, I have not tried the Amicus because 1) its not available in my area and 2) I avoid senior and weight management products since I have dogs of all ages-I try to stick with ALS, but on occasion rotate in an “adult maintenance” Its a royal PIA to check and double check everything before adding it in, but its even more confusing to attempt to feed separate brands to every one.

  • aimee

    Gordon,
    Now you’re stabbing me?? Should I be hurt? My skin is thick… I think your blade crumpled against it! : )

  • aimee

    Shawna,
    I read through all the references you posted, yet none of them said that when gluten is fed to a normal dog it causes gut wall damage and increased permeability.

    I have no problem accepting wheat as an allergen or that increased gut permeability exists and may play a role in the development of allergies. But when it is stated that gluten causes villous atrophy and increased permeability this implies that it happens across all dogs, not just those with the genetic CD like affliction as seen in Irish setters (which I already acknowledged does exist)

    If that is so then there should be a straightforward cause and effect study. Yet the only study I came across of that design was the one I posted and when intestinal permeability was tested before during and after feeding gluten there was no such effect.

    It seems we can read the same source and come to different conclusions. The SACN doesn’t contradict the above study. SACN states that increased gut permeability occurs prior to the development of gluten sensitivity.

    SACN also says increased permeability may be a factor in the development of allergic reactions and beef, dairy and wheat contain proteins to which allergies commonly develop.

    If I follow your reasoning that wheat causes the intestinal permeability which allows the allergy to develop then I have to conclude that beef and dairy do as well. Are you saying beef causes intestinal permeability and gut wall damage in an otherwise normal animal?

    I don’t disagree that once a GI allergic response develops a circle of inflammation and increased permeability can occur. Considering that all gut is permeable and most individuals develop tolerance not allergy I have to conclude that there are other immune regulation events necessary for that to occur vs a food itself causing an allergy to develop.

    Are you saying that because of a genetically based gluten intolerance all people and pets shouldn’t eat gluten? If we stopped eating everything because of a small segment of the population having a sensitivity to it there would be nothing left to eat : )

    In regards to NCl3 it was commonly used in flour production over 50 years ago but I don’t see that it is used any longer in that role.

  • sandy

    Melissa,

    Have you tried Amicus Senior/Weight Management in your rotation? It’s 30/10.5-12.

    Mike P.

    I add in some Epigen sometimes to decrease the carb content.

  • melissa

    Mike P-

    Since I have dogs with fat intake issues, its impossible to find a grain free that has moderate protein(imo 30-33percent and fat under 15 percent) that the dogs can eat solo. So, I mix the food to get the protein/fat and calorie ratio that works for us. I used to get crazy, mix and rotate out two brands every 3 mths or so to be sure to try to avoid excessive/deficiency-now I upped it to three foods : ) Adding the canned and the cooked meats ups the protein levels but keeps the fat under control(I boil the food and take off the fat for those that can not have the fat added back in) The grain free seems to keep the stools nice and firm.

    I really like the Acana and so do the dogs, so I am considering keeping it as part of the “permanent” rotation mix and just rotating the other two, grain inclusive foods. I understand your point about Boxers and cancer-but genetics has a huge play in whether or not the dog will develop an issue, so you can’t make yourself crazy over it-just do the best that works for you and she, and what you are comfortable with. Since my dog tend to live long healthy lives, I have to assume that I am doing something right, even if it flies in the face of “science” and current recommendations. And remember, those “recommendations” change frequently : )

  • Mike P

    Melissa…What in your opinion is high high protein? Because of cancer and Boxers being so prone I want to keep the carbs under 40.So you think 3 brands are a good rrotation? Thanks for your input…

  • Shawna

    Aimee ~~ the authors of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition disagree with the findings of the paper you linked ““Gluten administration did not increase intestinal permeability” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10803646

    “Dogs with GI diseases, including IBD, have more food allergen-specific serum IgG than normal dogs, a finding that may reflect increased antigen exposure due to increased mucosal permeability (Foster, 2003).”

    “Beef, dairy products and wheat are most commonly reported as ingredients
    causing adverse food reactions in dogs.”

    “The pathogenesis of gluten-sensitive enteropathy has been debated for many years, but researchers now think gluten sensitivity in people is probably mediated by the immune system. Knowledge of the complete sequence of immunologic events is incomplete, but it appears IgE mediates
    acute responses to gluten whereas the delayed hypersensitivity (and mucosal atrophy) is mediated by IgA and IgG (Vojdani et al, 2008). Gliadin-activated macrophages may possibly recruit lamina propria lymphocytes resulting in a delayed hypersensitivity response and various inflammatory changes such as infiltration of inflammatory cells, mast cell degranulation, production of eicosanoids, increased microvascular permeability and
    complement activation (Marsh, 1992; Loft et al, 1989). The lymphocyte density of the mucosal intraepithelium is increased and serum total IgA levels are elevated in gluten-sensitive dogs (Hall et al, 1992).” https://s3.amazonaws.com/mmi_sacn5/Chapter%2031%20-%20Adverese%20Reactions%20to%20Food.pdf

    Sixty-nine percent of reported cases involve beef, dairy and wheat (in dogs). It also does say, however, that dogs are not affected to the degree that humans are — which can be quite severe.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    I seem to be experiencing technical difficulties. When I get them sorted out I’ll post the rest of my rebuttle…

  • Shawna

    I completely agree with the others!! They’ve all covered the rotation aspect so I want to focus on the protein question. Most, higher end, kibbles are going to range from 30ish to 40ish percent protein. Raw feeders feed significantly more protein then this. The recipe in Dr. Karen Becker’s (a raw feeding vet) book is 60% protein on dry matter basis. If my math is right — Primal raw Venison is approximately 72% protein on dry matter basis. Bravo Balanced Beef is also around 60%. The small amounts of healthful protein you are adding is not going to, in my opinion, create and excess of protein.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Toxed2loss Toxed2loss

    And to continue,  Aimee,
    So just because an article is peer reviewed, and even if it’s written by a credentialed author(s), that doesn’t guaranteed it will be true or accurate, or even relevant… And at the same time, just because a person doesn’t have academic credentials, he or she isn’t automatically an uneducated, moron incapable of logical thinking or deductive reasoning. 

    But because you seem to need other people to cite THEIR  sources, here you go:

    (Mike, (and all the other readers who are bothered by the inordinate amount of space this takes up) I apologize for the inundation….)

    To start, let it be known…
    “Their digestive tracts are short, and simple as opposed to the complex system of digestion required by herbivores in order to digest and assimilate indigestible plant materials, and dogs and cats need to consume preformed amino acids from their food. Their digestive tract contains specific enzymes such as protease for digesting protein, and lipase for digesting fat in the right proportions for a meat based diet, the diet they evolved to eat.” 
    http://www.petsynergy.com/overview.html

    “The biological value of a protein is a measure of that protein’s ability to supply amino acids, particularly the 10 essential amino acids, and to supply these amino acids in the proper proportions.>>>> In general, animal proteins (meat, by-product meal) have higher biological value than vegetable proteins (soybean meal, corn gluten meal).” Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine, http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/sa/clin/cp_handouts/Nutrition_Adult_Dog.pdf

    “Remember, though, that grains provide mostly carbohydrates and only limited amino acid (protein) profiles. Extra carbohydrate intake, above the immediate needs of the dog (which occurs often with grain-based diets) prompts internal enzyme factors to store that extra carbohydrate (sugar) as fat.”  T. J. Dunn, Jr., DVM, http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_ protein_in_the_diet

    “Grains tend to be better sources of carbohydrate, a quick source of energy. Animal-derived tissues are more easily digestible and have a more complete array of amino acids than do grains. http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_protein_in_ the_diet?page=2
    —-