Purina Active Senior 7 Plus (Dry)

Melissa,

Thanks for your kind comment. I do try to remain objective and post factual information. I appreciate the comment that you have seen many dogs consume grain based commercial diets without all the effects as posted here. (Heck not even all holistic veterinarians think grains in a diet are problematic for all dogs and DogtorJ recommends potato based diets for those using commercial foods, yet others vilify that ingredient.)

There may be at issue a population bias, meaning that the owners of dogs that consume diets containing ingredients that are vilified, and do well with them, are not posting in these types of forums.

The field of nutrogenomics is in its infancy and I have no doubt that there are genetic subsets that are intolerant of particular food types. But I think it is incorrect to make broad based statements based on a subset of the population. I think it more correct to say gluten causes villous atrophy in a susceptible population which then takes into account all the people/dogs who can eat gluten without problems.

I also don’t like to see cause attributed when none is established. Villous atrophy for example, is a tissue level diagnosis and in my opinion should not be made without the tissue in hand. (By my understanding, if widespread it should lead to some pretty profound GI signs!) So if an animal/person improves after removing a particular ingredient from the diet than I think the best we can say to describe that observation is to call it an “adverse food reaction to ingredient “X”. Just my 2 cents

Hi Sandy,

There are several types of study protocols. Many are similar to the type of research done on people. Retrospective studies may be done by looking at data already collected by veterinary schools from animals brought to the hospital for care. If interested in GI, than the records of all the dogs that had GI biopsies would be gleaned.

In prospective studies dogs with a particular problem are offered reduced costs for participating in the study. The dogs are then assigned to a treatment group. Other studies are done using purpose bred dogs in a research setting. I believe using dogs from shelters is falling out of favor.

In digestion studies input and output is measured. Sometimes intestinal content is collected as well. I’m not aware of any studies comparing high vs low protein over a lifetime or grain vs grain free. The only lifetime study I know of was the one done by Purina.

Well said, Shawna!! & Richard!!

Sandy those are excellent questions. Most studies are performed with shelter dogs. The trial is short term, a few days to weeks, and the dogs are killed and necropsied. The Research uses euphemisms to obscure the fact that they kill the dogs. It’s one of the reasons that I find it appalling that certain people will only accept research done on dogs… In order to get tose answers it means the senseless killing of more dogs!

I like Richard’s experimental scenario better! Iknow from first and second hand experience that Shawna is correct. I’ve counseled thousands of people (only a couple hundred pet owners, directly) to clean up their, or their pet’s, diet (and I’m not counting those whose lives were improved by environmental clean up, which is mostly what I do.) and its dramatically improved their lives. Richard, Shawna and I focus on the whole picture, and the results invivo. That’s quality of life for the living, not dead science.

I will say this, Shawna goes, I go, too.

Shawna,

Please dont go! You are one of my favorite commentators to read here. Dealing with a Shepherd that has an issue with Candida, you and Richard have been instrumental to me turning him around.

Aimee ~~ you wrote “The true prevelence isn’t known. If it was at all common though I’d expect that there would be publications addressing it.”

That is exactly the point, it is unknown at this time — even in humans. Food intolerances/allergies is grossly under diagnosed in humans. I know MANY people who have a condition in which food is causing villous atrophy that was not diagnosed by a doctor. My own case would have never been diagnosed if I hadn’t been so obstinant about finding a root cause for my symptoms. I would be on several different medications now controlling the symptoms (like hypothyroid) of my intolerance/allergy as well.. I tried for 10ish years and MULTIPLE doctors before finding the doctor that finally (after on 5 minutes with me) made the diagnosis.

Dogtor J also fought the medical establishment for his diagnosis.

I became friends with a person in California that was on disability her symptoms were soooo severe. She told me she was suicidal even. She saw multiple doctors and not one of them suggested a food intolerance. However, her symptoms were too similar to mine for me to be quite and I suggested. She tried an elimination diet. She is a different person today and I have a life long friend. She has told me that I “saved her life”.

On a local forum I belong to I suggested a mother take her 2 year old daughter off grains to see if it would clear up the psoriasis her daughter was experiencing — her doctors had given up on her. Within days of stopping the grains (oatmeal and buckwheat) she started clearing up and mom reported her mood was even better. So, mom went off grains too and also reported feeling better. The very long conversation can be found here (if anyone wants to confirm my story)– this is kinda the middle of the convo. http://www.completelynourished.org/profiles/blog/show?id=2667312%3ABlogPost%3A11596&commentId=2667312%3AComment%3A13221&xg_source=activity (The founder of this website, by the way, was seriously ill due to MSG.)

And there are SO many more that are affected and learning of their intolerance thru laypersons NOT their MDs. You would see this if you quit worrying about the studies and started talking with people more.

SO my thinking is, if it is this under diagnosed in humans (who supposedly should be getting a good deal of their daily diets from grains) how could it not be more prevalant, yet under diagnosed, in dogs that have NO biological requirement for grains? Do you really think that the positive results Richard, DFN and others have seen are all a bunch of hype?

Some of my symptoms that improved when I eliminated dairy (or mostly eliminated dairy that is) — arthritis like joint pain, tendonitis, hypothyroid, chronic sinusitis and more. How many people actually have these or similar symptoms but are on medications to suppress them? These symtoms all started developing in my early to mid 30′s. Oh — I had NO gastrointestinal issues.

Sandy

EXCELLENT point IMO – common sense, practical and astute !!

That grains and potatoes (at least what goes into dog food at this point) create health problems in the vast majority of dogs is no longer in doubt for me. Through the years with thousands of dogs coming through our store and hearing the litany of dog problems, and the mostly inane reasons given to our customers by Vets for the cause of them, I’m not remotely surprised that most veterinarians are selling Hills Science diet and “prescription” diets in their stores and are basically clueless about the problems grain and potato cause in dogs. I’m not saying they are corrupt – just clueless.

If I could design a way to find out which nutrients worked and which didn’t I’d watch thousands of living dogs with problems and then alter their diet until the problems went away. When over 90% of the problems go away if grain and potato are removed – which is the case – then I’d look for the reasons why…not state that it can’t be so because someone hasn’t done specific research to prove it yet. Then after dogs died I’d do autopsies to learn what I could from their physical condition.

The real and best proof in my opinion is to be found in real life – not theory or studies that often times are WAY too specific and short and don’t take into account the ENTIRE biological system over time – not just a few weeks.

You can do a study to prove the a biological system needs calcium but it will not tell you that you need calcium to be in balance with magnesium or phosphorus unless you look at a bigger picture.

I’m just wondering how many dogs are used for scientific study. Are people donating them to science after death? Are their guts being analyzed at a microscopic level? How do “scientists/researchers” know what they know? Just by live feeding trials? Blood/stool specimens? How would researchers know what a life long diet of grains or vegan or high protein does to the intestines and how they affect nutrition absorption and how it affects body organs? Since I don’t think we were really interested in dog diet/health until fairly recently. If there hasn’t been alot of research and testing done on live or dead specimens, how would we really know the prevalence of anything?

Well, Aimee,

This morning I was going to try posting the rest of the lengthy list of citations that validated The importance of meat based protein sources, when I read your latest post.

I’ve got your message loud and clear. You just want to argue. I don’t have the health to spare to play your game. You aren’t open to learning anything.
I know a citation war with a closed mind goes nowhere, as one can find peer-reviewed citations of minutia to support any view point. Let’s agree to drop it.

Toxed2loss,
Hmm I’ll try again. In the fresh state an animal based protein will likely have a higher digestibility over plant based protein. But protein sources in kibble are often altered from their natural state. Rendering, drying and extrusion can all decrease digestibility. Additionally, chicken for example, as most commonly used (necks, backs and frames) has a lot of connective tissue associated with it (bone ligament and cartilage) vs chicken breast or thighs. These factors can then explain why a plant based protein source when incorporated in dog food may have a higher digestibility than an animal based source. There is no value judgment here. It is just a neutral statement that I do not interpret as being denigrating to meat.

The paper I cited evaluated sources as they are used in pet food production.
I cited the source to support the statement I made that that protein digestibility of a plant based source can be greater that an animal based source once incorporated into kibble. For example from table 4 the ileal CP digestibility for soy bean meal was 85.3% while that for poultry meal was 72.7%.

I did not cite the source as support for my understanding of why this occurs. That was not directly addressed in the paper though this statement alludes to composition being a factor. “Nutrient composition and bioavailability of animal by-products is inconsistent. This is due partly to the fact that any number of animal tissues are included in the animal by-product sold to the petfood manufacturer.”

In regards to lamb meal, I judged a source as being not needed so I humbly apologize for that oversite. In this paper the mean AA digestibility of lamb meal was 62%, the lowest of the sources tested. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=lamb%20meal%20digestibility%20dog

I posted the information about digestibility only as a source of information without any intent to exalt or denigrate any pet food ingredient. My only purpose was to make people aware that animal based protein sources as used in pet food may not always be highly digestible.

My comment “I’m not sure why you said dogs can only absorb carbs from a plant based source.” Was in response to this:
Nov 22 time 1:51 “The short digestive track of dogs makes it extremely difficult for the dog’s system to absorb anything more than carbs from those sources, leaving the harder to obtain nutrients and protein to get “crapped out.”

It seemed to me you were saying protein from a plant source would be defecated out rather than digested and absorbed.

aimee – Do you really read all those posts people post or were you already aware of them? Personally, I honestly don’t read them as it can just take up too much of one’s already hectic schedule. Unless of course, reading them benefits or relates to your profession. Ahhh I’m a cheeky bugger

Shawna,

No need to rewrite the book: ) I have always acknowledged that gluten sensitivity exists as a very uncommon autosomal recessive genetic disorder seen primarily in Irish Setters just as it is decscribed in SACN. I’ve read the research on this topic.

What I haven’t seen is anything that supports the idea that villous atrophy occurs independent of this uncommon genetic disorder.

Where we disagree is that gluten should be removed from the diet of all dogs because a miniscule number of dogs have a genetic condition known as gluten enteropathy. Similarly, I don’t believe that all people need to avoid wheat, barley, rye, oats and buckwheat simply because a subset of people have Celiac Disease.

No where in SACN does it say that all dogs should have gluten removed from their diet. Along those same lines, SACN does not say all dogs should have beef or dairy removed from their diet simply because some dogs are allergic/intolerant to it.

No Aimee I am not saying it, Small Animal Clinical Nurition is saying it. Should we ask them to remove the data from their book because you are not able to find research material?

“GLUTEN- AND GLIADIN-FREE FOODS
Several potential antigens are found in flour when cereal grains are processed. One polypeptide, gliadin, is found in wheat, barley, rye,
buckwheat and oat flours. Gliadin is responsible for gluten-sensitive enteropathies in people and dogs. Homologous gliadin polypeptides
are not present in whole grains and flours produced from rice and corn.
In people, gluten-induced enteropathy or celiac disease is an important malabsorptive disorder. An analogous condition, termed wheatsensitive
enteropathy, has been identified in Irish setter dogs and is suspected to affect dogs of other breeds. Affected animals develop
small bowel diarrhea due to malabsorption secondary to villous atrophy. Gluten- and gliadin-free foods are most commonly recommended
for managing dogs suspected of having wheat-sensitive enteropathy. In most cases, withdrawal of the offending gliadin antigen from
the diet results in resolution of the villous atrophy and clinical signs.” https://s3.amazonaws.com/mmi_sacn5/Chapter%2048%20-%20Introduction%20to%20GI-Pancreatic%20Disorders.pdf

And YES, certain casein proteins in dairy also causes villous atrophy (in humans and presumably in dogs).

Gordon,
Now you’re stabbing me?? Should I be hurt? My skin is thick… I think your blade crumpled against it! : )

Melissa,

Have you tried Amicus Senior/Weight Management in your rotation? It’s 30/10.5-12.

Mike P.

I add in some Epigen sometimes to decrease the carb content.

Melissa…What in your opinion is high high protein? Because of cancer and Boxers being so prone I want to keep the carbs under 40.So you think 3 brands are a good rrotation? Thanks for your input…

I seem to be experiencing technical difficulties. When I get them sorted out I’ll post the rest of my rebuttle…

And to continue,  Aimee,
So just because an article is peer reviewed, and even if it’s written by a credentialed author(s), that doesn’t guaranteed it will be true or accurate, or even relevant… And at the same time, just because a person doesn’t have academic credentials, he or she isn’t automatically an uneducated, moron incapable of logical thinking or deductive reasoning. 

But because you seem to need other people to cite THEIR  sources, here you go:

(Mike, (and all the other readers who are bothered by the inordinate amount of space this takes up) I apologize for the inundation….)

To start, let it be known…
“Their digestive tracts are short, and simple as opposed to the complex system of digestion required by herbivores in order to digest and assimilate indigestible plant materials, and dogs and cats need to consume preformed amino acids from their food. Their digestive tract contains specific enzymes such as protease for digesting protein, and lipase for digesting fat in the right proportions for a meat based diet, the diet they evolved to eat.” 
http://www.petsynergy.com/overview.html
—
“The biological value of a protein is a measure of that protein’s ability to supply amino acids, particularly the 10 essential amino acids, and to supply these amino acids in the proper proportions.>>>> In general, animal proteins (meat, by-product meal) have higher biological value than vegetable proteins (soybean meal, corn gluten meal).” Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine, http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/sa/clin/cp_handouts/Nutrition_Adult_Dog.pdf
—
“Remember, though, that grains provide mostly carbohydrates and only limited amino acid (protein) profiles. Extra carbohydrate intake, above the immediate needs of the dog (which occurs often with grain-based diets) prompts internal enzyme factors to store that extra carbohydrate (sugar) as fat.”  T. J. Dunn, Jr., DVM, http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_ protein_in_the_diet

“Grains tend to be better sources of carbohydrate, a quick source of energy. Animal-derived tissues are more easily digestible and have a more complete array of amino acids than do grains. http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_protein_in_ the_diet?page=2
—-

Mike P-

That would depend on your dog. For mine, I do not want a high high protein level, and therefore always rotate and mix foods to control the amounts of protein and fat. I boost the content with the canned and fresh toppers, which they love. I rotate as a way of ensuring optimal nutrition as its my belief that not every kibble can be “everything’ to every dog-My vet does not have to agree with my theory because, well, they are not the vet’s dogs. I do rotate brands/types less now that I mix three together-previous I would switch foods out every 3 mths or so, now I rotate ONE out every 4-6mths depending on how the dogs do and whether or not there is a newly reviewed food I wish to try. The Acana grain free is one that I may stick with as a “permanent” base and rotate the other two as the dogs seem to really love it,and its ones of the few GF’s that is low enough fat that I can control the amounts through “mixing”.

I don’t find a 72lb boxer with muscle to be overweight-especially if the ribs can be felt when you rub your hands over her, and she has a clearly defined waist. However since boxers tend to have hip and heart issues, he may be leaning towards keeping her trim(not thin) and may be correct on her not gaining any more.

Mike P and Sandy

Regarding rotation of kibble (or raw for that matter).

In the initial stages of formulating Brothers our Ph.D animal nutritionist told me something that stunned me. He said in 30 years of experience in dog food formulation and research, working for almost every dog food company in the US, he did not know of a single dog food that made any effort to actually BALANCE the nutrients in the food. They just usually made sure they met AAFCO standards, which is basically minimums and maximums on certain vitamins and minerals but has nothing to do with BALANCING the nutrients TO EACH OTHER. As you pointed out Sandy, they don’t even have a recognized need for Omega 3 in AAFCO “standards” much less how to balance it to Omega 6 or other nutrients.

Along those lines, as we ran our dog food store over the years we were visited by many dog food and industry reps and often heard the admonition to tell our customers to constantly rotate the foods because they admitted that none of them were nutritionally balanced. So it really was widely known and accepted that these commercially produced foods were not designed to be a “complete” or well balanced source of nutrition.

So we made the decision to “balance” the nutrients in each Brothers formula taking into account every component, and it does seem to be making quite a difference – but I do admit that, to some degree, I myself am taking this on faith because I am not the Ph.D. nutritionist doing the “balancing”.

However, I do trust our nutritionist and with our “nutritionally balanced formulas” have seen enough “miracles”, as someone on DFA once proclaimed (with skepticism at the time), that I am becoming a believer – to the point where I spend much of my time researching nutrition and how we might improve Brothers even more as we go forward. There is no substitute for seeing hundreds of dogs get healthier to validate an idea and inspire further improvement.

I think that even Shawna, Gordon, and other raw food proponents (which I include myself) would agree that “balanced nutrition” is most likely best achieved by rotating a wide variety of raw foods. Even in feeding raw, which is natures preferred food for a dog, there can be problems if the diet is not properly balanced. We have witnessed this first hand, on numerous occasions, in our store over the years.

For our customers who feed raw, or want to, and are not as adept as Shawna or Gordon at balancing the diet, we usually suggest one meal raw and one meal Brothers because I am confident that they are then getting a good balance of nutrients. This has proved very successful and is how we feed our brood of dogs.

So, unless you are following our example, I do highly recommend a constant rotation of kibbles, as you are both following. I don’t know if dogs do actually prefer variety, I suppose some do, but they definitely need variety if they are eating most commercial kibbles.

I dropped a plate of raw gizzards,hearts,and livers on the floor (clutz) and my dog ate it all in a heart beat.I always put them in a frying pan with an egg for 30 seconds until the egg just begins to scramble.I dropped them on my way to the stove.Even our little toy poodle house guest gobbled some up.She comes over for friday doggy breakfast.Is adding the extra’s a few times a week a good thing while feeding a higher protein kibble?I found on dog food websites alot don’t list the ca/phos ratio.Blue wilderness 1.3ca/.8 phos does. I could not find that info on Merricks BG OR fROMMS GRAIN FREE.

I favor rotation myself. Why settle for one food with one flavor forever? How would you know if ALL the vits/minerals were balanced and balanced to each other? Maybe some brands will be at the upper limits on Ca and Phos and some brands will be on the lower end. And maybe some brands just meet the minumum requirements and don’t aspire to be more since we only have AAFCO to go by anyways. Would keeping a dog on a food with unbalanced omega fatty acids or an unfavorable ratio of EFA’s forever be a good thing? AAFCO doesn’t even require omega 3′s. I think if your dog is thriving on a good rotation diet of high quality foods and meats with all the complete amino acids from different meat sources, keep doing it. I feel sorry for the dogs who have no choice but to eat the same “cereal bar” every single time forever…(speaking of the lower quality foods)

I took my dog to the vet for a dew claw problem.Nothing major and all is well.During the visit I brought up dog food.I told him I feed grain free food and top with canned,sardines,gizzards,hearts,livers,yougurt,eggs.I believe in food rotation and he told me “what you read on the internet is mostly lies”.He said try Iams,science diet,or purina.He said find the one my dog likes and to stick with it.He doesn’t believe in food rotation.I have rotated 5 or 6 different brands all 5 star grain free and she does great on all of them.10 day transition and never a problem.She did puke yesterday after i mixed in sardines and scrambled egg.I don’t think I let it cool enough before I gave it to her.AAn hour later I gave her a cup of Brothers with warm water and she ate it with no problems.Question to the experts…Are to many brands rotated a bad idea?Mike S says there is no perfect food …Any thoughts about rotation??

Shawna,
Oh Ok… I’m pretty grain/carb neutral and you want me to go grain free….
I think my dogs snubbed the raw because of the odor.. even I admit it was strange not a normal meat smell. This was years ago long before raw foods were popular. It was a ground raw diet that a vender at a show was promoting.

I think the terms I searched on were “lectin dog intestine” and “gluten dog intestine” because Toxed2loss said in her post that they caused gut wall damage, leaky gut and allergies. Other than Irish Setters I found the study done on SCWT which concluded that “Gluten administration did not increase intestinal permeability” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10803646

I read the first two references.. poor dogs is right but the reaction of “hysteria” was not due to the gluten… It was due to the nitrogen trichloride.
You gave me a lot of homework! It will take a while to get through it all!

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=813680

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23313.htm

http://www.walthamusa.com/articles/cgismintes.pdf

Oops — just realized Aimee was referring to gut issues. The links I posted relate to gliadins relation of convulsions/seizures.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ucazAAAAIAAJ&q=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&dq=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&hl=en&ei=t2bQTr_YDMmq2QXR5JTQBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA

Doesn’t specify dogs — http://books.google.com/books?id=rkpGAAAAMAAJ&q=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&dq=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&hl=en&ei=t2bQTr_YDMmq2QXR5JTQBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=55xrAAAAMAAJ&q=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&dq=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&hl=en&ei=qmfQTvjTE-SK2wXH1tyVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwADgK

http://books.google.com/books?id=X7VsAAAAMAAJ&q=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&dq=canine+gliadin+villous+atrophy&hl=en&ei=qmfQTvjTE-SK2wXH1tyVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBjgK

“Gliadin is responsible for gluten-sensitive enteropathies in people and dogs.” https://s3.amazonaws.com/mmi_sacn5/Chapter%2048%20-%20Introduction%20to%20GI-Pancreatic%20Disorders.pdf

My search criteria for the above was “canine gliadin villous atrophy”

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/95/4/563

Lectins are a bit harder to find as I don’t know which lectins actually cause the problems (like gliadin in gluten grains). I did find info on this one specific lectin though.

“The acute phase reaction detected in dogs by concanavalin A binding”
http://www.springerlink.com/content/f2647x607r211p74/

I haven’t even checked Dogtor J’s site yet. Likely to have more info I would assume…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2055391/pdf/brmedj03743-0008.pdf

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/135/12/760.extract

This one cites one study, in dogs, but doesn’t give particulars http://books.google.com/books?id=YhoIulsMpUoC&pg=PA300&lpg=PA300&dq=canine+gliadin&source=bl&ots=A6CDzIy496&sig=IaVrVad2QcRV-TjTpL0oOcVxO28&hl=en&ei=lvbPTvmJHuvisQLlweXIDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=canine%20gliadin&f=false

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/10/5372.full.pdf

http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/reinkey_ws09.pdf

I found these all on regular google using “canine gliadin” as my search criteria. There were more and I quite reading them after the first few.

Aimee ~~ no, not convert you to raw. Rather convert you away from grain.

Its not surprisig to see or hear of a dog snubbing raw.. Most all of us would pick junk food over health foods if not used to eating the healthier foods. I’ll bet you a class full of sixth graders, most, would pick french fries over a lettuce salad (with healthy dressing (like lime or lemon juice)) every time.

Audrey — I see what you are saying. However, I will know she is going down long before she gets so uremic that she quits eating. I, and you and probably most on this blog, know when our pets aren’t 100%. I know how long it takes for her gums to turn pink after pressing them. I know the color and temperature of her tummy and tongue. I can tell when she has a mild fever (and start preventive measures (garlic) before she really develps symptoms). If she wakes me up more then once a night to go outside I know she needs to drink more and therefore has more toxins to clear (and start probiotics/prebiotics to help her clear them). The fur along her shoulder blades is the first to change, gets coarse, if she’s not feeling well. The brown pigment of the spots in her fur also fades. Etc etc etc

Additionally, I will not (when these subtle events take place and I can’t reverse them) completely change her diet. I will add more fat (in the form of ghee and coconut oil) so she requires less protein to meet her caloric needs. As well as transition to higher fat meats. I have canned tripe (which she adores) stocked up and ready.

There has been three or four times over the years that she refused to eat. I force, via syringe feeding, a little diluted apple cider vinegar down her. She belches within 10 to 30 minutes and then is ready to eat her meal.. And she is a hearty eater — usually one of the first done.

Aimee-

I have never found studies re damages either-and would love to see them if any one knows one to cite-

In some forms of “natural medicine”, isn’t the Reishi Mushroom(could be off on the name of it) used to fight stomach cancer? Purely because the lectins are believed to attack and devour cancer cells?

Shawna,
I’m not suggesting we feed dogs that low of a protein diet so we may not really be all that far apart. : ) But I do think that a fair amount of the protein that is being fed when feeding a high protein diet is being diverted to energy.
Convert me? What will I be converted from/ to hee hee : ) I’ve always said that I think the best diet is a well balanced diet based in fresh ingredients. As far as feeding raw.. well… it just isn’t aesthetically pleasing to me but I did actually offer it to my dogs once but none of them would eat it. One even fled from her bowl growling.. and these were all Labs we are talking about LOL

In regards to Audrey I was thinking along two lines: one being low phos diets as a protective measure and two, that if she isn’t feeling well when you introduce a new diet she may well be less likely to eat it.
But I also completely understand you not wanting to “rock the boat” She really is a miracle isn’t she!

Point taken Toxed !!! Taken and agreed with!

Mr. Francis writes in his book that he even had to completely exclude himself from society to heal.. Moved up to the mountains, no phone, no newspapers, nothing that makes our lives convenient as it was preventing his recovery…

Thanks Shawna! other than the ‘finding ones self in a hospital,’and the degrees, sounds like me! I’m still wading through Steve Brown’s book, as well as, Dr. Becker and Beth Taylor’s book, and a dozen or so research papers, but I’ll put it on my list. To be honest I gave myself a break in heavy reading and devoured 4 or 5 Pat McManus books… GFETE…the Sheriff Bo Tully Mysteries. I’ll check it out when I get through some more of this homework.

“It’s also true that if you eat an optimal diet and live a toxic lifestyle, your system will, likewise degrade.”

YES, just at a slower rate.. Either way however the end result is poor health so best to address both.. You really really would, I think, like “Never Be Sick Again”.. I know you have enough to read right now but maybe in the future

Melissa ~~ Your point is received and duly noted!! And — you are absolutely right.. Health has many many aspects. Through my training, researching and reading I feel that nutrition is the absolute key factor in it all though.. My thoughts on your little one (NICE JOB by the way) is that — if his/her parents were properly nourished the cleft wouldn’t have happened in the first place (I also think the same thing about my little Audrey – and her momma was raw fed but the diet wasn’t balanced). And, I then wonder to myself — could there be a 100% improvement if fed something better then Purina? Yep, that is how my mind works!! Proper nutrition there is health and undernutrition leads to a lack of health — however, it can be the nutrition of the parents (or even grandparents) causing a genetic weakness and nothing to do with the immediate diet (my Pom has a fabulous coat but her teeth are terrible if not properly maintained).

Diet can even prevent and cure autoimmune diseases.. IMO, diet is the one thing that we shouldn’t skimp on. If we can’t afford anything but Purina then Purina it is but… I can’t afford to feed all dogs in my home exclusively raw so when rescue asked that I keep kibble incorporated into the foster dogs’ diets, it was actually a bit of a relief…

I just personally think that the nutrients we put into our bodies are the number one factor in health.. I feed commercial raw (complete and balanced) and then give extra nutrients from whole foods in addition to that… And then, I give what I believe to be the best of the best in the extra nutrients. My 2 year old grand daughter is even on 3 different whole food supplements. And my daughter took the best of the best prenatals (that weren’t covered by insurance).. I’ll admit — I’m, shall we say, anal about it..

Toxed ~~ I’m not excluding toxins here in any way shape or form.. Just think that those better nourished can deal with toxic exposure better then those undernourished. I know you would agree, you mention you use food when you get hit to pull yourself out of it — egg yolks etc…

Ooops! Omega 3 fats. Like organic cream cheese! Yumm! The fat in organic prime rib! Yuuuumm! Broccoli with home made organic cheese sauce!!! Yuuuummmmmm! Yum. GFETE

Marie and Shawna,
“a bit on the rare side, or a lot..” yumm! And yes! Though Marie, you’ll get even more healing by cutting all food additives from your diet, especially MSG (incl. hidden sources) and aspartate…. Read Dr. Blaylock’s books! The other important factor is remove ALL environmental toxins, like fragrance, commercial cleaning products, solvents (women’s over looked solvents would be things like nail polish remover, nail polish, perming solution, hair spray), petroleum and synthetic personal care products.

Shawna, Copper, tin and zinc are some more trace minerals that are necessary for healthy skin and hair. Even with my severely damaged immune system, my hair is still naturally dark. I don’t have even one grey hair. (I’m in my fifties.) When I get a major hit, I get one. I never pull them, but by nutrition, it comes back dark as I repair the damage. Just sayin…

Marie —- TOO FUNNY!!!! However, from what I’m reading the answer is yes!! Okay, maybe not “cure” but could be improved.. If you really do have bipolar — google Dr. Russell Blaylock (he’s a neurosurgeon). He has a TON of information on foods (and food items) connection to mental illness.

I also found more then just that one research article on nutrition and mental disorders if interested.. PS — you’ll probably have to eat your steak (or turkey) a bit on the rare side (or a lot of it) to get the most benefit… YUCK!!!

So my bipolar can be cured with steaks?

Please say yes.

Hi melissa,

I think I mentioned that I have Pomeranians and I don’t brush my girls except when they are blowing their coats.. They don’t matt. And this matting was beyond normal.. And yes, not all dogs on SD or Purina matt so badly but as you said they are probably maintained better but that doesn’t mean they are any healthier.

Also, my last rescue was a puppy that came in with an open fontenelle and an okay coat eating Science Diet Puppy food. I switched immediately and even in a 12 week old puppy had detoxing symptoms… I started her on raw and then switched her to 50 raw/50 high quality kibble. Her coat improved and her fontenelle closed even though our vet said it was unlikely — could but unlikely.

And yes, I do think people can determine the quality of the coat. However I have been amazed myself with my own and foster dogs. A coat that I thought was very nice improved even more. Example — my daughter’s short haired 15 year old Chihuahua eating a raw food, commercial, complete and balanced diet — I started her on a whole food (glandular) multi-vitamin and was pleasantly surprised to notice an improvement in her already very supple coat.

Also, coat quality is just one aspect of what can be witnessed — my sister-in-laws dogs (including the Bulldog) have less lean muscle mass then my daughter’s Chihuahuas.. I mentioned they live in the country. They also have a lake on the property that the Retriever and Lab swim in. They’re getting exercise.

Oh — when we adopted Cloee (the Chihuahua) from the local humane society she was guessed to be about 9 years old. She had gray hair, poor coat quality and her eyes had the grayish cataract looking film – but not cataracts. Granted we don’t know her background – she was found as a stray. But, on a raw food diet her gray hairs went away as did the gray in her eyes. Interestingly, malnutrition can also cause premature gray hair in humans — humans eating a fortified diet. Iodine deficiency hypothyroid is a cause of graying in clumps as an example.. I’ve also had two dogs with collapsing trachea that healed with no additional support other then diet.

Nutrition is what keeps us living and thriving. Poor nutrition results in poor health. It just may not be readily apparent — such as the connection to gray hairs. I attended a webinar given by DVM Dr. Cameron last week. I wrote this comment down from his webinar (most of the webinar attendees are vets and he addresses the entire audience as if they are all vets). He stated — “Nutritional deficiencies are common and are associated with symptoms we are seeing. Every case we see has a nutritional component.”

Shawna, aimee, Toxed, and all

I’ll throw in my two cents here since I can no longer contain myself.

I do think we must keep in mind that often peoples perception of the grains and potatoes that go into dog food are NOT EVEN CLOSE to what they (the people) eat or can relate to when they think of the grains or potatoes that they see in their grocery store.

How many of us have actually seen the truck loads of damaged, spoiled potatoes and grain pulling into the dog food manufacturing plants, and then seen them stored in the super hot silo’s that are full of bugs, and are breeding grounds for heaven knows what as they store these rejected “components” of the human food chain for months and months?

It’s only natural to imagine what WE usually see when we pour out the nice clean, selected, approved for human consumption, high end grain, out of the nice clean boxes it comes in, from the nice clean air conditioned stores it’s kept in, while in our nice clean kitchens.

Are the potatoes that we imagine going into the dog food nice, firm, fresh potatoes with no roots coming out of them as would be the case if they are a bit too old, which I clearly remember happening to the potatoes in my mothers pantry that were kept in our pantry for a few weeks too long?

Do we imagine these potatoes are kept in a nice cool place (55 to 65 degrees) so the neurotoxin Solanine will not grow under the skin as it does when the potato is too old or has been warm for too long, or has grown those new little roots? And if the potatoes are too spoiled, or old, or allowed to get too warm, are they then peeled in an attempt to remove as much Solanine as possible before being ground up and added to the dog food, or just thrown out which would be best?

Then do we imagine that even if we made your own dog food and added the nice clean human grade quality of grain or potato it would be OK for a carnivore [who may have some omnivorous tendencies, even though the Mitochondrial DNA (which is responsible for energy conversion) in our little dog is 99.8% identical to the Gray Wolf and has been for 5 to 10 million years minimum] it would be good for our dog? Probably not unless we lovingly soaked the grains as Gordon does – “they come air-dried raw and I soak the premix in water or be it acidulated water for 24 hours so to have the nutrients released, and anti-nutrients and phytates inhibited. This method makes grains actually nutritious and easier to digest”).

I’m still wondering about the Lectins in grains even after soaking – what happens to them?

Anyway, I know many of us were raised on Disney stories with happy endings but in this real, multi billion dollar, profit driven world of huge corporations controlling dog food manufacturing and distribution – we need to think for ourselves for a moment here. I’m sorry to be so blunt about this but in my humble opinion – if you are still imagining the Disney version of what goes into most commercial dog food made by large corporations then it shows the amazing power of marketing to quell the power of reason. It is simply not possible to make a food that costs so little a pound out of quality ingredients and market it through a 3 tier profit structure with everyone making a profit substantial enough to sponsor golf tournaments and race cars.

Purina, Hills, and Mars, manufacturer the worst, and most unhealthy processed pet foods on Earth. Oh, did I forget P&G? Sorry aimee, which one was it that you work for again? Ooops

“Shawna….I mean this with the kindest of hearts, If you wait for Audrey to feel bad before adjusting her diet could it be too late to be of the most help?”

Aimee ~~ I didn’t take it any other way .. I do get frustrated, at times, during our conversations but I do enjoy them as well. You are open minded and willing to review the data presented to you — I appreciate that very very much. I DO want to convert you, don’t get me wrong , but I do appreciate, even if I don’t agree with, you viewpoint and our discussions.

Okay, back to Audrey. Who’s to say that adjusting her diet isn’t what starts her decline? I don’t recall whom it was but I once had someone tell me “if you want to fulfill Audrey’s life expectancy, put her on a prescription diet”. I also am far more concerned with her quality of life then her longevity. And, if you think about it, she has done AMAZINGLY well on her diet.. 1. She had polydipsia and polyuria even before weaning 2. Diagnosed and showing azotemia (stage II of kidney disease) at 1 year of age 3. Jump forward FOUR years and symptoms are still the same as when she was 6 weeks old. Have her kidneys deteriorated in those last four years — it’s possible. I haven’t had blood work done to confirm one way or the other. BUT, its been four years and she still remains happy and healthy AND strong. Her immune system is smoking strong!!! She may be azotemic but as long as she is not uremic I am going to maintain my course with her…

By the way — she started “failing to thrive” at 4 weeks of age (if I remember the timeframe correctly). She had a collapsing trachea and couldn’t get enough milk from her momma despite the breeder giving her every possible chance to do so — without sibling interferance. She was put on raw egg whites and raw goat milk – syringe fed til she could lap it up on her own. I was holding the spoon (had gone to visit her) when she took her first lick..

She really is my little miracle baby!!!!

Shawna,
I’m following you, we are in complete agreement. Roll with me here as you say…greatly simplified : ) The body needs 100 AA for synthesis of enzymes, cell repair, etc. to make 20 proteins each with the sequence blue red green yellow orange. If you provide 100 AA in 20 of each color than all is well. But if you provide 100 AA and only 15 are yellow well then only 15 proteins are made and the other 25 AA are left over, can’t be utilized, and are broken down for energy. The body is protein depleted.

I think where we may differ though is in the following:
If we feed 500 AA, 100 of each color, (perfect balance) the body STILL will only make the 20 proteins it needs and the other 400 AA are left over, used for energy and the nitrogen excreted as urea.

If you provide 500 AA that are not in perfect balance, as long as there are 20 of each color, the 20 proteins the body needs will be made and the remaining 400 will be used for energy and the nitrogen excreted as urea.

This is why I was perplexed when I’ve read in regard to KD if the protein is of high BV more of it can be fed. Yes you can feed more if you wish but it will just be used for energy.

Depending on whom you read, for adult maintenance, if protein is high BV it only need make up 5 ( Strombeck) to 8 (NRC) % of the diet! Freakishly small amounts!

I’ve noted more than once in posters comments that when their dog was changed to a high protein dry diet they noted their dog drank a lot. This makes sense to me as there is a lot of protein being used as energy and hence a lot of urea to be excreted!

You also make an excellent point though as to what else do the ingredients bring to the table so to speak. My husband did his PhD on the effect pesticides had on the formation of sperm. He of course was blinded as to which samples were from the controls. He was very excited to find some very bizarre findings, and equally crushed to find that they were in the controls! He was using corn oil as the carrier agent for the pesticide for oral administration. The phytoestrogens in the oil caused some funky changes in the sperm!

Sadly enough my husband’s friend was just diagnosed (three days ago) with kidney failure and is now on dialysis. He thought he had the flu.. malaise that was hanging on. Guess the body kept adapting until it just couldn’t anymore.

Shawna….I mean this with the kindest of hearts, If you wait for Audrey to feel bad before adjusting her diet could it be too late to be of the most help?

LOL!! You guys crack me up…

Oh my gosh Toxed!! Love the pic… Doesn’t do justice to how beautiful you are though!! The original photo is better!! Hollywood starlett versus mad scientist .. I know, I know — mad scientist on the inside and Hollywood starlett on the outside!! Best of both worlds.. Too funny!!

Richard:

A fascinating story…..but I would be lying if I said it didn’t make me cringe…glad you still have that thumb!

But for real: D:

Here’s the ingredients for the Canine Renal Support..
“Ingredients: Bovine kidney, kidney bean extract, buckwheat leaf juice and seed, oat flour, bovine liver, ribonucleic acid, nutritional yeast, veal bone PMG™ extract, bovine orchic Cytosol™ extract, pea vine juice, beet root, bovine and ovine spleen, alfalfa juice, bovine kidney PMG™ extract, mushroom, rice bran, bovine thyroid PMG™ extract, carrot, wheat germ oil, black currant seed oil, black currant juice, kelp, bovine adrenal, allantoin, bovine pituitary PMG™ extract, chlorophyll extract, manganese glycerophosphate, beet leaf juice, and extract of Rhizopus oryzae grown on Tillandsia usneoides and beet root.” http://www.standardprocess.com/display/VeterinaryCatalog.spi?ID=343

Standard Process is one of the few products my father, my doctor, my dentist and my vet all agree on … My chiropractor thinks the sodium content is too high but carries the line. He also sells a proprietary brand to the technique he uses B.E.S.T. So I think there MAY be a little prejudice there ..

And are all toes sources of C & Bs whole food sources?

Okay — exipient free… I would think so but how would I know for sure?

Shawna, as for turmeric, was it organic and excipient free? I almost hate to ask, as she’s so sensitive, but if there were excipients present or it was grown in a country with lesser organic standards, she may have been reacting to something other than the turmeric. :-} We can hope but the testing could be scary…

When I first started treating my condition, I couldn’t even stand C. The healing crisis was terrible. I had to start with as much as would stick to a dry finger tip… I worked up, SLOWLY, to 25 grams… The C has diminished my scars, until they’re almost gone. I wondered if because of her injuries, her ability to synthesize C was impaired, and therefore boosting it might give you the scar remission you’re looking for….?

Toxed quoted “Thus, manipulation of the wound repair process in order to shift it towards regeneration will probably require the ability to slow the rapid fibrotic response so that renal progenitor cells can allow tissue regeneration rather than scar formation.”

“Slow the rapid fibrotic response” — Interesting!!! I gave Audrey turmeric as the curcumin in it is anti-fibrotic but she didn’t tolerate it well… Bummer!!!!!!! I’ll have to go looking for other anti-fibrotic natural substances now.. She does get protomorphogens which prevent further damage from inflammation quite efficiently…. So maybe the anti-fibrotic isn’t as necessary while taking protomorphogens?

They talk about curcumin and kidney disease here
http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v68/n5/full/4496349a.html

The other dogs in the house get turmeric off and on still though

Sandy ~~ I’m cracking up again.. Esp considering I left my post before reading your post about longer and longer!! I had a teenager that was in to all the texting lingo and I picked up quite a bit from her. Toxed has a slightly different variation then mine but means Roll On Floor Laughing My A– Off..

Toxed ~~ you wrote “Now, Shawna you remember in Dr. Blaylock’s books that he talks about brain tissue regeneration… Up until a couple of years ago, very few people in the mainstream medical field accepted that. Now it’s becoming more well kown. Research is always like that. :-}” Dang girl, my brain was so fried when I read the VERY techinical book (even though he says he dumbed it down) that I had to re-read most every word to understand half of it.. I’ll have to go back and read it all over again now that I’m in less of a fog … Thanks for the additional info!! I have to go back and read ALL of it except the second, shorter paper. Keep getting distracted while at work and it’s cutting into my reading time… Geesh…. I still have to read some other stuff you sent me on your condition too…. Thank you again for that!!

Sandy, Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A– Off

Shawna, honey, you want these here or back channel?

Here’s one more for you here, just because it is sooooo exciting! LOL…

http://www.fibrogenisis.com/2/1/3

Review
Possible mechanisms of kidney repair
Paola Romagnani1,3* and Raghu Kalluri2
* Corresponding author: Paola Romagnani p.romagnani@dfc.unifi.it
Author Affiliations
1 Excellence Centre for Research, Transfer and High Education DENOthe, University of Florence, Florence, Italy
2 Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts, USA
3 Department of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Division of Matrix Biology, Department of Medicine Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts, USA
For all author emails, please log on.
Fibrogenesis & Tissue Repair 2009, 2:3 doi:10.1186/1755-1536-2-3

The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: http://www.fibrogenesis.com/content/2/1/3

Received: 2 January 2009
Accepted: 26 June 2009
Published: 26 June 2009

© 2009 Romagnani and Kalluri; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
This is an open access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0), which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
Abstract
In most adult epithelia the process of replacing damaged or dead cells is maintained through the presence of stem/progenitor cells, which allow epithelial tissues to be repaired following injury. Existing evidence strongly supports the presence of stem cells in the adult kidney. Indeed, recent findings provide evidence in favour of a role for intrinsic renal cells and against a physiological role for bone marrow-derived stem cells in the regeneration of renal epithelial cells. In addition, recent studies have identified a subset of CD24+CD133+ renal progenitors within the Bowman’s capsule of adult human kidney, which provides regenerative potential for injured renal epithelial cells. Intriguingly, CD24+CD133+ renal progenitors also represent common progenitors of tubular cells and podocytes during renal development. Chronic injury causes dysfunction of the tubular epithelial cells, which triggers the release of fibrogenic cytokines and recruitment of inflammatory cells to injured kidneys. The rapid interposition of scar tissue probably confers a survival advantage by preventing infectious microorganisms from invading the wound, but prevents subsequent tissue regeneration. However, the existence of renal epithelial progenitors in the kidney suggests a possible explanation for the regression of renal lesions which has been observed in experimental animals and even in humans. Thus, manipulation of the wound repair process in order to shift it towards regeneration will probably require the ability to slow the rapid fibrotic response so that renal progenitor cells can allow tissue regeneration rather than scar formation.”

Richard, RFLMAO,!! I like yours better!!!! It is sure to start my day off right!

Shawna, there was some even cooler stuff on the first site, like a grown man growing a new finger! Lots of kids have, but very few adults. As a matter of fact, years ago my husband chopped off his thumb. It was only attached by a 1/4 ” wide piece of skin. Our neighbor just happens to be one of the best bone docs around. Long story short, he stuck it back on and warned me it would probably turn necrotic, but he’d managed to splice a couple of blood vessels. He also told me he would never regain feeling in it.

Weeeeell, My mom read those books about C when I was a kid and swore by it so I pushed it like cotton candy at the fair. Dang but the thing took, and he has complete feeling and use of it. It did take 5 years to get the feeling back and he had to protect it, when out in the cold, especially the first winter.

Now, Shawna you remember in Dr. Blaylock’s books that he talks about brain tissue regeneration… Up until a couple of years ago, very few people in the mainstream medical field accepted that. Now it’s becoming more well kown. Research is always like that. :-}

Grinning From Ear To Ear. and yes I had to google it myself!!

Toxed

I’ve been meaning to ask what the heck GFETE means. You are always putting on your posts and I must have missed the explanation.

All this time I’ve been thinking it meant-

Gigantinormously Freakin Extremely Technical Explanation….

but now I’m thinking I may be mistaken…

….LOL!!!
just kiddin around –

Marie got my day started with a laugh and I’m feeling the need for another one…

But really – what on earth does it mean?….everyone else already seems to know and I’m feeling left out.

Regarding Kidney regeneration:
Just so you know, mine are regenerating, and it is becoming recognized that kidneys can repair them selves. Herea a couple of sites/citations for you.

From  http://www.ask.com/wiki/Regeneration_(biology)
“Kidney
Regenerative capacity of the kidney remains largely unexplored. The basic functional and structural unit of the kidney is nephron, which is mainly composed of four components: the glomerulus, tubules, the collecting duct and peritubular capillaries. The regenerative capacity of the mammalian kidney is limited compared to that of lower vertebrates.
In the mammalian kidney, the regeneration of the tubular component following an acute injury is well known. Recently regeneration of the glomerulus has also been documented. Following an acute injury, the proximal tubule is damaged more, and the injured epithelial cells slough off the basement membrane of the nephron. The surviving epithelial cells, however, undergo migration, dedifferentiation, proliferation, and redifferentiation to replenish the epithelial lining of the proximal tubule after injury. Recently, the presence and participation of kidney stem cells in the tubular regeneration has been shown. However, the concept of kidney stem cells is currently emerging. In addition to the surviving tubular epithelial cells and kidney stem cells, the bone marrow stem cells have also been shown to participate in regeneration of the proximal tubule, however, the mechanisms remain controversial. Recently, studies examining the capacity of bone marrow stem cells to differentiate into renal cells are emerging.[40]
Like other organs, the kidney is also known to regenerate completely in lower vertebrates such as fish. Some of the known fish that show remarkable capacity of kidney regeneration are goldfish, skates, rays, and sharks. In these fish, the entire nephron regenerates following injury or partial removal of the kidney.”

http://www.hsci.harvard.edu/newsroom/kidney-repair-shop
“The kidney actually ranks very highly in its ability to repair itself,” said Joseph Bonventre, MD, PhD Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School, Chief of the Renal Division at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, and head of the HSCI Kidney Disease Program.
Bonventre and his team study the mechanisms by which the kidney repairs tissue after disease, particularly the repair of nephrons, which are the key functional units of the kidney. The nephron consists of a filtering unit for the blood, the glomerulus, and a  complex tubule responsible for filtering the blood. The small tubules collect the filtrate and process it before passing it on to ducts leading to the bladder. “If tubules are damaged they can be repaired but if the damage is severe enough the nephron may be destroyed. Unfortunately the kidney can regenerate and recover, but the kidney cannot make new nephrons, and in that context, its regeneration is limited.”

thanks Shawna!

Hi aimee ~~ I do DEFINITELY agree that lowering phosphorus is the gold standard!! I recommend it to any that ask me.. However, I don’t think it is absolute or I’d be doing it with Audrey.

The protein / amino acid — in my opinion all comes down to bioavalibility. Amino acids are not used individually but in groups. Example — for the body to “make” glutathione it needs cysteine, methionine and glutamine (plus vitamins). Some amino acids are grouped to make other amino acids etc. Take egg — supposedly has 100% bioavailabity. So, 100% of the amino acids are utilizable by the body (to make glutathione, keratin, muscle etc). If 100% is used then there is nothing, theoretically, left to become urea. Now take soy and corn.. I don’t remember the bv numbers for these two but lets say soy is 63% and corn is 59%. This is crude but for this explanation please roll with me here. That means that soy has 37% and corn has 41% that is unutilizable. When combining soy and corn another (say) 12% can be used by the body but there is still a considerable amount that is not used. This would be the case in a low protein, moderate or high protein diet — if they can’t be grouped together by the body for efficient use, they become waste.

Science Diet canned KD food is a prime example – although not whole, due to the phosphorus in egg yolk, egg is the first source of protein in the food. And, NO plant proteins are used — only animal (egg white/pork liver/whey and synthetic taurine. Why, because the body uses more of it for regeneration and less goes to waste. Yes, the overall protein and phos is low but no plant protein is used (is my point). http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-canine-kd-canine-renal-health-canned.html They CAN’T make this same food in kibble form so they don’t..

Another way to look at it — soy has the most, per Dogtor J, glutamic acid of any protein source. The body can only use so much glutamic acid — they rest goes to waste. If cysteine is damaged by heat then even more glutamic acid goes to waste because there is not enough cysteine to group together to make glutathione. It’s obviously way more complicated then this but this is my understanding. I hope I am making sense with all this..??

You wrote “I don’t understand why plant AA when used as energy would “strain the kidneys” while meat sourced AA wouldn’t?” Meat sources do as well but becuase less is wasted there is less strain. Imagine the complications of feeding 50% protein as only plant based.. Not a pretty picture. Or, look at it this way — the liver’s JOB is to filter as well but when you consume an excess of something it is not designed to filter an abundance of — you have problems. Again this is crude but I hope it makes my point. A little bit of alcohol is no problem for the kidneys or even A LOT in a short time. But some over a long period of time strains the liver to the point of disease.

What does IRIS say about the “quality” of protein fed?

I also wanted to mention with grains — you also get the additional negatives such as an extremely high omega 6 content (in many) causing unnecessary and damaging inflammation. With corn and soy, genetic modification is a concern (at least for me). Jeffrey Smith has some very very eye opening data on this. Then there’s phytates and enzyme inhibitors. My doctor (also a certified clinical nutritionist) as well as many many others feel that NO grains should be eaten unless “properly” prepared by sprouting, long soaking or fermenting. This is the thinking of old school nutrition and is starting to make a come back. There’s even a line of products on the market (called Ezekiel) that has been sold in health food stores for as long as I’ve been shopping at health food stores and probably longer. Ezekiel sprouts the grains before making their breads and other products. They are so fragile that they have to be stored in the freezer. Sorry, got side tracked a bit there

The first year of Audrey’s life I fed her without worrying about how much phos or calcium (outside of what is correct ratios etc). Over the next year I started fiddling with her diet to see what helped and what didn’t. I made her BUN and creatinine worse by doing so. I also gave her leaky gut and food allergies by adding barley to the diet (a good source of fermentable fiber but inappropriate (I now know) for other reasons). I am actually thankful to her vet for not listening to my concerns early on as I may not have had the guts to stay my course if I had not had a year of that course as a guideline.

The year of blood work every three months was really really hard on Audrey. She would violently shake each time we pulled into the vets parking lot. In addition to that (some reading this may think I’m a loon but I couldn’t care less) I have several (including one vet) animal communicators ask her what she wanted — no veterinary intervention was consistantly the comment suggested back to me. Ohh, by the way, the bloodwork was initially done as a pre-spay. I was so blind sided by the news and had to make an immediate decision as she was at the vets office that I allowed the spay. She was HORRIBLY ill for darn near a week. I slept on the floor with her for the first three days because she would wet herself while sleeping several times a night and I would have to change and launder our bedding each and every night. Plus would have to carry her outside or to her food bowel etc. She also had an allergic reaction to the sutchers.

Anyway, all that said — she hasn’t been to the vet in the last three years. Through fostering she has been exposed to kennel cough, giardia, coccidia, whipworm, hookworm, ringworm and who knows what else. She has an amazing immune system (she is the one to either not get ill at all or to get well first). Her quality of life far exceeds her quantity of life.. As symptoms start to appear I will start slowly and carefully modifying her diet. So, I’ve give 70% lean meat instead of grass fed, I’ll incorporate more tripe into the diet, I’ve feed the whites of the egg only and then no raw, reduce the amount of organs, I’ll cut out bone and start another source and if she accepts I’ll start small amounts of sushi rice.

Sorry this is soooo long…

Shawna,
I appreciate you taking the time to explain to me your understanding of the treatment of kidney disease. I’m still struggling with what you said about plant protein “straining the kidney”.

When treating uremia it seems the purpose of limitation of protein is to prevent AA being used for energy by providing them in perfect balance and in only the quantity needed for cell repair etc.

When protein isn’t tightly limited though, many of the AAs fed are “leftover” and used for energy with the end product being urea. I don’t understand why plant AA when used as energy would “strain the kidneys” while meat sourced AA wouldn’t?

I don’t see either as “straining the kidney” but both as contributing to the urea to be filtered by the kidney. Dogs on high protein diets (including raw) as a group have a higher BUN than dogs on lower protein diets because there is more urea to excrete but I don’t see this as straining the kidneys.

I followed and read the link you provided which proposed various mechanisms by which high phos levels triggers high PTH and noted that dietary restriction restrictions of phos continues to be recommended. So I still maintain that it is valid to follow IRIS guidelines when treating kidney failure and to select for low phos foods.

One more question.. You said you are prepared for when Audrey needs phos reduction. What parameter are you using to know when it is time? Creat ??or are you using phos or PTH or????

Lastly.. have you asked your vet to consider submitting a case report regarding Audrey to get this in the literature for others seeking this approach?

My congenital liver dog who was originally projected to die at 9 months lived to 14..with her “ little liver that could”.. I’m rooting for Audrey to have “the little kidneys that could” and have a full and long life with you! She is lucky to have you!

Gordon ~~ that is the second REALLY REALLY REALLY nice thing you have said to me (the first was when you accused me of something — hee hee hee).. I can’t tell you how much I TRULY appreciate your comment!!!!

You wrote “However, when it comes to raw feeding, I’m totally in concurrence with and of the belief that Dr. Lonsdale has it more right than anyone else when it comes to the correct diet of both domesticated cats and dogs.”

You may enjoy knowing that I’ve had a change of heart on your and Dr. Lonsdales diet (as you relay the diet that is).. I actually commented here before but you must have missed it. The diet that you feed your dogs (including whole carcasses and whole fish etc) I can totally get on board with — and even would agree that it is, if done right, the healthiest way to feed. The meat is fresh, it is truly biologically appropriate (no synthetic nutrients) etc. I do think there is a good deal of room for lazy people to screw up. However, I also stated in the previous post that even with Dr. Becker’s diet there is room for lazy people to screw up.. So the problem is not the diet but rather lazy people cutting corners. Can’t blame Dr. Lonsdale for that. By the way — I do plan on still purchasing an e-copy of his book and reading. Gonna have to wait til after the holidays however.

I did get your email but had received numerous others in that time frame and it appears missed a few.. I would have seen them when archiving but you beat me to that… Sorry!!

I’m glad your new job is going well and what an awesome opportunity — going back to school!!! How did the dogs acclimate to the new work schedule?

Thank you again!!!!!!!!

Shawna stated, “I quoted material from the Iams research symposium stating that restricting PROTEIN in kd dogs does more harm then good… This is old news…. Manufacturers designing kibbled diets for kd dogs seem to ignore this data…”

And further stated, “…..They know beyond a shadow of a doubt that “protein” in and of itself does not contribute to kidney disease either before it has developed or after it has set in.. In fact, many educated on the subject, feel it is “low quality proteins” like those found in less biologically avialable by-products and grains, as well as a chronically dry diet, that puts extra strain on the kidneys.. ”

I couldn’t agree more! I know I said it time and time again, but I’ll say it again….In my lay person opinion, Purina and the like, before any other reason, intentionally provide more cheap carbohydrate fillers and ingredients with little or no meat protein, for maximising their bottom line first and foremost. All other reasons, including those re Rx foods to treat certain ailments, are also used in masking their real main reason for providing such truly malnutritional diets. Some reasons of which, really look and have some debatable scientific merit behind them, when it comes to ailments like KD.

As someone with KD can I jump in again? I’ll assume a “yes” answer from at least one of you. GFETE First off, my son-in-law gets kidney stones and his specialist told him “no soda, because of the phosphorus. That’s it. Obviously if the specialist thought it was a bigger deal he would have made it so. My son-in-law takes magnesium and potassium salts to prevent his stones.

My KD is treated by my EI physician. It’s treated with IV C, B complex, mag and potassium. I’m also on a high protein, veggie and fat diet. My kidneys are almost healed. I have peed blood, peed brown, passed chunks, and pee’d maroon (porphyria) following exposures. At the time I peed the blood the chemical exposure was so bad that my urologist told me that it lacerated my kidneys. It also caused a systemic ecoli attack that was so bad the lab called her during surgery and she called me -during surgery! So for me to say that my kidneys are almost healed is a HUGE thing.

I never even heard of the Phos thing until last year when my son-in-law relayed the “no pop” order. Since my doctor knows I don’t drink soda, it’s never been an issue for me. So aimee, it seems to me that eliminating grains from the dogs diet, and feeding them closer to the biologically appropriate diet, benefits their whole health with a lot less fuss than computing cal/phos ratios. It’s worked for Audrey and its worked for me. In fact, I got dumped by my urologist, because I wouldn’t do the standard treatments. Treatments which they say might prolong the KD patients lives by a few months or years, but not heal the kidneys… The method that Shawna uses for Audrey and that I use is doing a whole hek of a lot better than that!!!! Think about it. I don’t remember which source you’re quoting, but their results aren’t that impressive. And really, isn’t that what really counts. Just my 2¢.

Mike,
My comment had more to do with diet formulation for dogs with confirmed kidney insufficiency than anything to do with this diet.

I do not think lower protein or phosphorous levels prevents kidney problems. Nor do I see any reason to take older dogs off of meat based protein diets. Old age is not a disease.

In regards to protein, I didn’t mean to imply it should be decreased in early kidney problems. (Shawna Iams stages their kidney diets in regards to proteins as does Royal Canin but they are both probably lower than what you’d like : )) But since a dog only uses/needs so much protein/day and then the rest is used for energy I’m comfortable with substituting carbohydrates for protein as an energy source. Shawna I’m not sure what you mean in regards to various AA compositions putting strain on the kidneys, can you elaborate?

My understanding is that restricting phos is the first step in controlling PTH. A dog may have a normal blood phos but behind the scenes the body may be pumping out PTH to maintain it as such while another dog with the same degree of kidney insufficiency may have a normal phos and normal PTH. There isn’t a good way to tell these two apart unless you measure PTH.

I think the IRIS guidelines regarding phos restriction are based on the phos and creat levels because of the correlation to PTH levels. At higher creat levels adding calcitriol is recommended as well. But they are guidelines so yes, if the dog’s phos remains in range and the PTH remains normal than I don’t see why phos restriction would be of benefit.

Oops — re-read Toxed’s comment… She is referring to Bean, Lew Olson’s dog. Lew would lower Bean’s phos when symptoms warranted doing so and then have him on a regular raw, barf diet at other times. Bean lived to age 5.

As mentioned in my previous post, I don’t restrict Audrey’s diet at all — of anything except carbs and no grains. The only time I tried grains (barley) on her it was a complete disaster!!!!

Shawna’s right about that. I treated mine, in part, with high amounts of quality protein. Organic, grass fed lamb, beef, wild venison and elk. I actually don’t do as well on fish (even wild salmon) or poultry. Just My Experience (JME)

“Is it really necessary for manufacturers of products like Purina’s Active Senior recipe to cut meat protein for the sake of the prevention of renal disease?”

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! They know beyond a shadow of a doubt that “protein” in and of itself does not contribute to kidney disease either before it has developed or after it has set in.. In fact, many educated on the subject, feel it is “low quality proteins” like those found in less biologically avialable by-products and grains, as well as a chronically dry diet, that puts extra strain on the kidneys.. Every individual educated in the do’s and don’ts of a kd diet will tell you “high quality” protein — grains and plant material are NOT that..

LOL!! Hey Gordon ~~ GOOD to see you around.. I actually sent you and email – guessing you didn’t get it It said — I’ve taken over as top commentor and don’t want to be there — where are you?

Didn’t answer you completely..

I don’t restrict Audrey’s diet at this time. She eats everything. However, when the time comes I know I will start by feeding egg whites but eliminating the yolk, green tripe sourced from lamb, higher fat meats. I will give egg shells for calcium instead of bone meal. Yams are significantly higher in phos then sweet potatos (which are not always in season — but I did find a source for frozen sweet potatos at Whole Foods). I have sushi rice on hand (in the freezer).

One cup of medium grain white rice has 242 calories, 68.8 mg phos and 5.6 mg calcium. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5718/2

One cup of sushi rice has on 169 calories but also only 13.9 mg of phos and 3.5 mg calcium. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5722/2

You could feed a lot of calories in sushi rice and still be significantly below white rice in phosphorus — allowing for a higher meat content — esp if feeding higher fat meat.

One ounce of 90% ground beef has 51.5 mg of phos while one ounce of 75% ground beef has 40.6 mg. Coconut oil is another good option.

One of the kidney forums I belong to has a nutrient calculator that allows you to create diets higher in proteins and lower in phosphorus.

Shawna,

What meats do you feed Audrey? I recall you saying tripe was low in phos. I calculated it out at 54mg/100 kcals which is similar to corn at 57mg/100 kcals but you said corn is high in phosphorous. What am I missing?

Other meats I calculate out at much higher level: beef sirloin 105 mg/100kcals, turkey raw lean 128 mg/100 kcals, beef liver 286 mg/100 kcals, turkey giblets 170 mg/100 kcals, chicken breast 101 mg/100 kcals.

Looking at other grains rice is 19 mg/100kcals, barley is 62 mg/100 kcals, oats and wheat are higher at 123 mg/100 kcals and 110 mg/100 kcals respectively and are similar to the meats I looked at.

Lisa,

This food has 30% protein. There are better foods out there at or around 30% as well – Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream, TOTW Sierra Mountain, Natures’ Variety Prairie, Blue Buffalo Life Protection Small Breed, Natures Select Hi Protein, Whole Earth Farms, Wellness Small Breed, Canidae Single Grain Protein Plus, Honest Kitchen Thrive, Nature’s Variety Instinct LID, Nutrisource Grain Free, Canidae GF Pure Land, Natural Balance Alpha Dog. None of these foods have corn, corn gluten meal, soybean hulls, soybean meal, wheat, sugar, animal digest, propylene glycol, food coloring, or menadione or generic meat and bone meal. All of these would have the “better quality meat” than Purina.

I want to put in a good word for Purina Active Senior 7 Plus. With regards to my little King Charles Spaniel, who has suffered from kidney disease since birth, this is the only food he likes and would eat, and it has been a lifesaver. Not sure why he only likes this particular brand; however, we have tried all the brands of senior food, and this is literally the only one he will eat, and moreover, likes. The protein content, which has to be lower than what can be found in can foods, must be in line with what he can eat. Our veterinarian was even happy when she saw him recently. She was impressed, and wanted to know what he was eating, which has always been a major issue with regards to his health and longevity, and the continuance of normal kidney function. Since switching over to Purina Active Senior 7 Plus, our poochie’s health has greatly improved, and the amount of health related kidney attacks has diminished to a new low. Since we love the baby so much, we are very thankful to have tried this Purina product, and it enhance the quality of his life. Thanks again.

This inferior grain-based kibble crap is on crappyness par with kibble like Pedigree.

What is Purina thinking? Let’s fast track the slow and painful death of dogs 7 years +? Besides, a dog is estimated to be around the mid 40′s in equivalent human years when it reaches 7 years old. So I doubt a human 45 year old, would deem them self a senior citizen. But I guess Purina’s agenda, like all the other main stream pet food companies, is to limit the life span of the dog to around 12 years on average, accompanied with multiple vet bills along the way, right up until its unnaturally Purina induced premature death.