Primal Raw Frozen Formulas (Raw Frozen)

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Rating: ★★★★★

Primal Raw Frozen Formulas Dog Food receives the Advisor’s top rating of 5 stars.

The Primal Raw Frozen Formulas product line includes 9 raw dog foods.

Each recipe below includes its related AAFCO nutrient profile when available on the product’s official webpage: Growth, Maintenance, All Life Stages, Supplemental or Unspecified.

Important: Because many websites do not reliably specify which Growth or All Life Stages recipes are safe for large breed puppies, we do not include that data in this report. Be sure to check actual packaging for that information.

Primal Raw Frozen formulas are available as Patties, Nuggets or Pronto Scoop and Serve.

  • Primal Canine Pork [A]
  • Primal Canine Duck [A]
  • Primal Canine Rabbit [A]
  • Primal Canine Venison [A]
  • Primal Canine Pheasant [A]
  • Primal Canine Beef (2.5 stars) [A]
  • Primal Canine Lamb (2.5 stars) [A]
  • Primal Canine Chicken (2.5 stars) [A]
  • Primal Canine Turkey and Sardine [A]

Primal Canine Duck formula was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Primal Canine Duck Formula

Raw Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 47% | Fat = 31% | Carbs = 14%

Ingredients: Duck, duck necks, duck wings, organic kale, duck gizzards, duck hearts, organic carrots, organic squash, duck livers, organic broccoli, organic apples, blueberries, cranberries, organic pumpkin seeds, organic sunflower seeds, montmorillonite clay, organic parsley, organic apple cider vinegar, salmon oil, organic coconut oil, organic quinoa sprout powder, dried organic kelp, alfalfa, vitamin E supplement

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 6.3%

Red items indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis15%10%NA
Dry Matter Basis47%31%14%
Calorie Weighted Basis34%56%10%
Protein = 34% | Fat = 56% | Carbs = 10%

The first three ingredients in this dog food include duck. Duck is considered “the clean combination of flesh and skin… derived from the parts or whole carcasses of duck”.1

Duck is naturally rich in the ten essential amino acids required by a dog to sustain life. And the necks and wings include bone, an excellent source of natural calcium.

The fourth ingredient is kale. Kale is a type of cabbage in which the central leaves do not form a head. This dark green vegetable is especially rich in beta-carotene, vitamins C, vitamin K and calcium.

And like broccoli, kale contains sulforaphane, a natural chemical believed to possess potent anti-cancer properties.

The fifth ingredient is duck gizzard. The gizzard is a low-fat, meaty organ found in the digestive tract of birds and assists in grinding up a consumed food. This item is considered a canine dietary delicacy.

The sixth ingredient is duck heart. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing to us humans, heart tissue is pure muscle — all meat. It’s naturally rich in quality protein, minerals and complex B vitamins, too.

The seventh ingredient includes carrots. Carrots are rich in beta-carotene, minerals and dietary fiber.

The eighth ingredient is squash. Squash is a nutritious addition high in complex carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals and dietary fiber.

The ninth ingredient is duck liver. This is an organ meat sourced from a named animal and thus considered a beneficial component.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With six notable exceptions

First, we find pumpkin seeds, which are rich in fiber, vitamins, minerals and, more importantly, linoleic acid, an essential omega-6 fat.

Next, sunflower seeds are a good source of plant-based fatty acids that and are also rich in vitamins. minerals and dietary fiber.

In addition, montmorillonite clay is a naturally occurring compound rich in many trace minerals. Montmorillonite has been approved for use in USDA Organic Certified products.

Reported benefits include the binding of certain mold-based toxins and even controlling diarrhea and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).

Next, this recipe includes coconut oil, a natural oil rich in medium-chain fatty acids.

Medium-chain triglycerides have been shown to improve cognitive function in older dogs.2

Because of its proven safety3 as well as its potential to help in the treatment of canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS) and chronic skin disorders, MCT can be considered a positive addition to this recipe.

We also note the inclusion of alfalfa, a flowering member of the pea family. Although alfalfa is high in protein (18%) and fiber, it’s uncommon to see it used in a dog food. This hay-family ingredient is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

And lastly, except for vitamin E, we find no mention of added vitamins or minerals on the ingredients list, but we’re reassured to find a detailed list of naturally present nutrients on the company’s website. 4

Primal Raw Frozen Formulas Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Primal Raw Frozen Formulas looks like an above-average raw product.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 47%, a fat level of 31% and estimated carbohydrates of about 14%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 52% and a mean fat level of 30%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 10% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 57%.

Above-average protein. Near-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical raw dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the alfalfa, this looks like the profile of a raw dog food containing an abundance of meat.

However, with 56% of the total calories in our example coming from fat versus just 34% from protein, some recipes may not be suitable for every animal.

Bottom line?

Primal Raw Frozen Formulas is a grain free meat-based raw dog food using a abundance of named meats and organs as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

Primal Dog Food
Recall History

The following list (if present) includes all dog food recalls since 2009 directly related to this product line. If there are no recalls listed in this section, we have not yet reported any events.

You can view a complete list of all dog food recalls sorted by date. Or view the same list sorted alphabetically by brand.

To learn why our ratings have nothing to do with a product’s recall history, please visit our Dog Food Recalls FAQ page.

Get free dog food recall alerts sent to you by email. Subscribe to The Advisor’s recall notification list.

Dog Food Coupons
and Discounts

Readers are invited to check for coupons and discounts shared by others in our Dog Food Coupons Forum.

Or click the buying tip below. Please be advised we receive a fee for referrals made to the following online store.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

The Dog Food Advisor does not test dog food products.

We rely entirely on the integrity of the information provided by each company. As such, the accuracy of every review is directly dependent upon the specific data a company chooses to share.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

We rely on tips from readers. To report a product change or request an update of any review, please contact us using this form.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

However, we do receive a fee from Chewy.com for each purchase made as a direct result of a referral from our website. This fee is a fixed dollar amount and has nothing to do with the size of an order or the brand selected for purchase.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

08/19/2017 Last Update

  1. Adapted by the Dog Food Advisor from the official definition for chicken published by the Association of American Feed Control Officials, 2008 Edition
  2. Pan Y et al, Dietary supplementation with medium-chain TAG has long-lasting cognition-enhancing effects in aged dogs, British Journal of Nutrition, Volume 103, Issue 12, June 2010, pp 1746-1754
  3. Matulka RA et al, Lack of toxicity by medium chain triglycerides (MCT) in canines during a 90-day feeding study,Food Chem Toxicol, Jan 2009, 47(1) 35-9.
  4. Primal Pet Foods, 10/11/2016
  • Peter and David Levine,

    After writing to the email address that you used to create your comments here, the real owner of that address wrote back to me confirming your unauthorized and fraudulent use of his identity.

    Please be advised I have retained all records of your criminal actions here including email and IP addresses used by you in case this individual needs it for a police investigation.

    In the meantime, we all look forward to the eventual unmasking of your true identity. Please do not post any further messages in this community.

  • LawofRaw

    Cyndy/Tinky’s mom/David Levine/Peter Levine,

    You’re not a doctor of any kind. It’s impossible that you could be, with such poor grammar and spelling mistakes that you keep making! At least it’s not possible that you’re one from an English speaking background. Otherwise you couldn’t have possibly passed any of the necessary exams. This is my honest opinion and perception, anyway.

    Now, with regard to the same tune you keep singing, you don’t actually debate other valid points made. I’m still waiting for you to explain to me if you understand the difference of the biology and physiology of between a human and a canid? And why can a canid eat bacteria infested decaying carrion? Why can the dog you walk (Well I hope you walk your dog) stop and sniff and lick this and that off the ground, as most dogs do, and have no health issues what so ever? If we did such a thing, we would inevitably become sick with symptoms of nausea and food poisoning to name a few. Do you just not want accept the fact that dogs and people are different?

    I don’t know who told you that you don’t have to wash your hands after handling raw meats. I sure do and this should be standard precautionary practice to protect us!

    Many dog owners have this mentality that whilst I agree that our beloved 4 legged pets are family members, these same people think they’re the equivalent to their human members. This is just not the case! One of the stores I buy my offal from, from time to time has a store manager who knows me and asks why I buy the offal and scoffs at the idea of feeding any dog offal. She conveys to me, “Aghh yuck how can you could feed that. I couldn’t imagine eating that as is”. I try and explain to her what dogs are and their background, which is met with a vague look and somewhat even disbelief and denial.

    Now instead of singing the self pity song and looking for sympathy, why don’t you stick with one pseudonym and debate/answer/discuss points made?

  • Betsy Greer

    Disquass, lol!

  • Melissaandcrew

    I just asked Mike to verify you. Lol should have read ahead. Only you control whether or not you participate..by posting you are. Disqus does not change what you wrote.

  • Shawna

    If we follow David and Peter’s advise to avoid foods that might be contaminated we will also have to avoid swimming and contact with other people per WebMD. Sounds like a sucky way to live….

    “E. coli in water

    Human or animal feces infected with E. coli sometimes get into lakes, pools, and water supplies. People can become infected when a contaminated city or town water supply has not been properly treated with chlorine or when people accidentally swallow contaminated water while swimming in a lake, pool, or irrigation canal.

    E. coli from person-to-person contact

    The bacteria can also spread from one person to another, usually when an infected person does not wash his or her hands well after a bowel movement. E. coli can spread from an infected person’s hands to other people or to objects.” http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/e-coli-infection-topic-overview

    We’d pretty much have to lock ourselves in our homes never to venture in the real world.. 🙁

  • Melissaandcrew

    Posting under mutiple names is a violation of this website David. HDM’s dog did not have e coli. Isn’t reading comprehension required for medical professionals? Lol. I know
    . You are Peter posting for David. Mike can you confirm this persons identity?

  • Cyndi

    What I said was a joke! Hence the “Lol!” Chill out!

  • InkedMarie

    Not everyone here has a social media account. I do but I didn’t have to prove who I was because I didn’t post under various identities or use invalid email addresses as some have done. You don’t need social media, you just need to verify your email address as dr mike says above.

  • Peter Levine

    We have received your emails. Don’t
    understand what this is all about.
    You have stated:

    please also provide verifiable proof of your real identity using a Facebook,
    LinkedIn or other recognized social media account upon which you’ve been
    officially registered

    We both cancel now our Disquass account as we
    don’t like spam and have been swamped with it. We don’t use social media and can’t
    therefore verify via Facebook. We wish not to participate anymore. You can block
    us since we do not have a facebook account. We find it unfair but understand
    that your regular contributors have flagged us and down-voted us as we stated
    facts against their own belief system. We understand that they push you hard and try
    to push their own agenda in a way which is pathetic.

    It is also evident that regular
    contributors bully on here and if
    they don’t have a facebook account they can verify they get blocked. If the
    regular contributors would have not down-voted me and Dave,emailed you, flagged
    me I would not have to verify anything and would not be blocked for not using
    facebook or social media.Am I old-fashioned and weird for not using it? guess I
    am.

    We do see now how people do get blocked
    on here…

    P.S.:looks to me your discuss program is not working properly, as I posted
    a couple of things differently and as a result get accused of things which are
    incorrect.

    P.S.: Hope you don’t have any more incidents of dogs on raw dog food on
    here getting sick from the raw dog food, which is according to the bullies on
    here ‘completely safe’, ‘they can handle the bacteria’ and ‘no need to wash your
    hands handling raw meat’ among other very concerning statements. We simply attempted to help out.
    I hope people come to their senses.

    We
    do not wish you participate on your site anymore based on the arguments we just have made.

    Prediction: 10 down-votes and 5
    flags from 7 regular contributors and 3 followers.

    BTW:Your
    policy states:

    we delete comments that exceed the boundaries
    of courteous behavior. This includes remarks that are rude, profane,
    mean-spirited, disrespectful, lack good manners or otherwise unrelated to the
    topic at hand.”

    Can you tell me what the
    reason is why you did not delete the mean-spirited comments on this section and
    others from your regular contributors? Example Cyndi 2 days ago:

    Yes,
    please let the door hit her on the way out……hard!!
    Lol!

    I don’t need to explain how
    mean-spirited this statement is and how it ‘exceeds the boundaries of courteous
    behavior’. There are many more examples of your regular contributors who have
    been acting in a manner contrary to your policy.We have to guess the rules don’t
    apply to the entire population.

    As
    Dave and I have stated before we wish not to engage anymore in this
    forum.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    My dog didn’t have E. Coli. The other poster on this site who tried Primal had his dog test positive for E. Coli. Get your facts straight.

  • Peter Levine

    There is no way of knowing for sure where the E-coli bacteria is from.I completely disagree.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I told you all that s/he would get confused about who s/he is.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m not the one who isn’t behaving professionally. Don’t make me laugh!

  • Peter Levine,

    According to our commenting policy:

    “…the use of multiple identities or other deceptive tactics designed to mislead readers are strictly forbidden.

    So, if we suspect you’re posting fraudulently, be prepared to verify your email address or to confirm your real name by providing your Facebook, Twitter or other established social media identity.”

    Please respond to the email I just sent you and follow the instructions it contains. Thank you.

  • Betsy Greer

    He’s as much a doctor as I am.

  • LabsRawesome

    The b and the p are nowhere near each other, not on my keyboard, anyway. You would think a Medical Professional would be able to spell crap.

  • beaglemom

    Yes, let’s please do that. I don’t really know why a medical professional has any authority on dog nutrition anyway.

  • LabsRawesome

    I think a Medical Professional would know how to spell “favorites”.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Why on earth do people do this???! Whyyyyy??!?! Ugh. What a waste of time for Dr Mike to keep having to deal with this 🙁

  • Peter Levine

    Come on, time to move on with this crab.

  • LabsRawesome

    I know. “They’re” Cindy, and Tinky’s Mom too. Lol. And of course, everything they say is going to be correct, because they are “Medical Professionals”. LMAO.

  • beaglemom

    David I mean Peter just edited the above post after accidentally admitting they’re the same person. Creepy.

  • LabsRawesome

    He’s back. Now is name is Peter.

  • LabsRawesome

    LMAO

  • Peter Levine

    As an MD I must say this:if I would be you I would do my research on raw meat.I would especially pay attention to reports by the FDA that has been testing raw meat for many years for disease control.We are a medical group.If raw meat doesn’t contain any bad bacteria I’m all for it.Raw meat at the grocery store is not safe as some people on this forum have noted.Some people on this forum have been getting bullied by regular contributors for pointing out the dangers of raw meat. Raw meat can have six to seven different strains of bad bacteria.These bacteria can ultimately weaken the immune system, cause organ damage as well as infections disease. It could even cause problems without you kowing it-It looks to me your dog could have an infection. Just do your research and only purchase what is safe. Be careful how you handle raw meat. You are not the only dog owner that has issues. Regular contributors on this forum will tell you raw meat is safe while it is only safe if it is not contaminated while most of it is. Just be careful what you purchase.Perhaps buy directly from a farm, if possible as it is gonna be less processed therefore less chance of contamination.
    If someone slamms me or anyone else who may post on here simply for suggestng caution please be an impartical observer and draw your own conclusions.
    Why would you want to put your dog’s body/immune system/organs through so much stress having to combat so much bad bacteria? If you can get it from a safe source I’m all for it.

  • LabsRawesome

    LMAO.

  • Peter Levine

    We are a group of medical professionals and disagree with your crazyness about David and everyone else who might be involved,I do not know.We would for sure never listen to you or any other regular contributors on here based on your predictible response.

  • Peter Levine

    I have never stated that ‘raw feeding is bad’: Please read exactly what I said before drawing inaccurate conclusions.

  • Hugo’sMom

    Hello, I have a question for you all. I’ve been feeding my 8 month old Wirehaired Pointing Griffon a homemade raw diet for the last six days. He loves the diet and there’s an obvious difference in his stool, small and relatively hard, which I understand is normal and expected. However, he has peed in the house twice this week and this morning when we got him out of the crate we discovered he had peed in there too. Hugo has been house trained for the last four months, so this is a surprise, especially the accident in the crate. Do any of you know if a raw diet can have this effect? I’ll include the ingedients below so you can see if there’s anything that might be the culprit. We’re most likely going to the vet regardless, but i thought I’d check in here too. Thanks!

    Ground turkey, turkey heart, kale, puréed pumpkin, carrot, plain yogurt, apple cider vinager, parsley, flax oil, eggs with shells, small amount of garlic (I know this is controversial, however the recipe author stated that garlic is actually benificial unless it’s eaten by the the bulb). I also give him about 1 1/2 lbs. chicken thighs/wings on the bone.

  • Melissaandcrew

    I dont use Primal but I have to give you a big thumbs up for keeping track of this forum and responding personally.

  • Matt

    Tinky’s Mom,

    It is unfortunate that the information you choose to present in this forum is inaccurate and misleading. I am Matt Koss, the owner of Primal Pet Foods. The fact is that you and I had one email exchange in which I clarified for you that Primal had purchased Treat Bags from a Canadian company that had the bags made in China. As well, I made it clear to you that we no longer use this vendor and all of our packaging is produced in the USA.
    The record to which you are referring clearly refers to bags and not food product, if you read the document closely.
    Again, the information you have presented to the other members in the forum is false and the factual documents on public record clearly outline the type of product that was imported by Primal Pet Foods.
    May I suggest to you that in the future, prior to posting comments, that you insure your facts are straight, honest and accurate.

  • LawofRaw

    Hmmm yeah it could be schizophrenia, and that could also be the reason she/he denied it. If it’s schizophrenia then it is sad and he/she/they need help. Or of course if not schizo than denial of other pseudonyms is just to play games. And that’s sad for them too.

    She/he/they had or have interesting walk-of-life roles as well, being a book dealer who’s a medical professional and who has the time to phone and write to various pet food manufacturers all day long and relay their claimed communication on here, time after time. Gee wasn’t that a dead give away, lol. Which brings me to the following point….it’s most likely not schizophrenia if the theme of all their posts’ message is the same kind, since schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder, causes each personality to alter and reveal a different character and hence even different writing styles and message themes. I could be wrong and that’s how I understand the symptoms of schizophrenia to be. So I reckon she/he is aware of their intentions/agenda.

  • LabsRawesome

    I’ll tell you why. Because this person gets off on pretending to be other people. They want to have several identities, so they can post, and agree with each other. This same person was on here last year posting under like 10 different names. They misspelled the same words, and used the same writing style, in all posts. And I can tell that Cindy, Tinky’s Mom, and David Levine, are all the same person, and the same one from last year. I don’t know if its a multiple personality disorder, or what.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi David Levine –

    I’m assuming “regular” raw feeder you referenced who had a dog with a kidney infection is me. I would like to set the record straight – not for you because it’s apparent you’re only here to cause problems – but to any other readers. My dog’s kidney infection had nothing to do with his being fed raw food and it was nothing “food related” period. This was issue was discussed in depth with the veterinarian (who, by the way, was against raw feeding). If it were related I would be the first one to advise against feeding raw. Do not ever make a post referencing my dead dog and act as if you know anything about the situation.

  • Cyndi

    Ha ha!!

  • InkedMarie

    Smart aleck! Make that 1996!

  • Pattyvaughn

    I have trouble just keeping track of who I’ve told back story to and who I haven’t. Adding to the story would be social suicide, it’s already to complicated.

  • Cyndi

    Was email invented in 1976? LOL! Just kidding!! 😉

  • somebodysme

    I think that saying raw feeding for a dog is bad is about as ridiculous as saying that humans shouldn’t eat broccoli and spinach. Can’t we get past all of our modern silly thinking and processed food junk to see that dogs are animals and they are meant to eat what “mother nature” intended them to eat. Dogs/wolves don’t cook their food…humans have started cooking dog’s food only just recently. But…humans don’t even know what is OK for us to eat so lord knows figuring out what an animal is supposed to eat would make their heads explode. Can’t we just get away from the “processed foods are healthy” way of thinking!

  • LawofRaw

    I asked Tinky’s Mom before, if she was Cindy and she denied it. Why not just be honest and say yes it’s me and I just want to post using a new pseudonym. I’ve change my own such a couple of times and publicised it. No big deal.

    Anyway the main reason I feel compelled to respond is in relation to your claim of “pseudo science” in relation to raw feeding. There is nothing pseudo-science about one million years of mother nature’s evolutionary and ancestral canid diet. As a medical professional that you claim to be, be cautious not to confuse a human with a canid. Whilst both are mammals, both are anatomically, biologically, and physically vastly different in many ways, not the least in how either systems process foods.

    How can a wolf eat carrion, and live to hunt another day without issue? Can you imagine the severity of bacterial infestation of carrion? My dogs are different breeds and of different litters, and have been on an almost exclusive raw meats diet for the last 3 years. I plan on feeding such for the rest of their lives. It should be interesting to see their final days someday in the hopefully very long future. I can only speak with experience on their behalf as I can also from materials read from other raw feeders and non pseudo-science experts such as Dr.s Lonsdale, Billinghurst, Symes, Becker, and some more to follow. Dr. Lonsdale, the enemy and nemesis of all mainstream commerically processed pet food manufacturers, has for years fed and put his patience on a diet solely of raw meaty bones, offal, and human table scraps with much success including reversal of ill-health from many ailments gained whilst on their previous to raw food diets and habits.

  • InkedMarie

    You know, I’m just going to be me. I’ve had the same email address since 1976. I’m readily available on FB. I don’t lie about anything, I can’t, Ive met too many people from the internet in real life. If I was a fake, how could I meet people IRL, I’d have to keep notes so I’d know what to say!

  • LawofRaw

    That kind of information is not proprietary. It is publicly accessible information and that Northwest Natural rep is kidding themselves. Probably more reason to be more weary of them.

  • LabsRawesome

    David Levine is probably Tinky’s Mom, aka Cindy’s newest persona.

  • LabsRawesome

    Take your pick, there was like 10 of them.

  • David Levine,

    Thanks for your comment. Your points about raw feeding are certainly worthy of consideration by our readers.

    However, as I clearly stated in my previous remarks, Tinky’s Mom (as some before her) lost her posting privileges here not because she had a “difference of opinion” (as you claim) but because she chose to post her comments fraudulently.

    Contrary to your criticism, this website was created for the very purpose of providing an open forum to encourage these kinds of debates.

    As documented by the more than 85,000 other comments on record here thus far, all opinions are welcome by the editor.

    However, I have no control over the way these many different views are received by others — or to how they up-vote or down-vote the remarks of others.

    Although regular contributors may think alike (as humans tend to do in any like-minded community), they are not given any exemption from the stated rules of this forum.

    Your charge that I am biased against those who disagree with these “regulars” is unfair.

    For proof, you need look no further than the fact your own “difference of opinion” has been allowed to remain here in its unedited entirety.

    Thanks for taking the time to post your critique.

  • Pattyvaughn

    It must be hard to have a multiple personality disorder and yet still be just alike. How do you even keep track of who you are at any given time.

  • LabsRawesome

    Yes! Laura, Peter, Simon, 102sparki, dogsonthehill. Are just some of the ones I remember.

  • Cyndi

    Whoever it is, they need to get a life!

  • Pattyvaughn

    All I can remember is Laura, but I remember that Laura was at or near the end of a string of names.

  • LabsRawesome

    If this is the same poster from like a year ago, they used about 10 different identities, both male, and female. Just a really weird person.

  • Cyndi

    Yes, please let the door hit her on the way out……hard!! Lol!

  • Cyndi

    …or should I say “guy”

  • Storm’s Mom

    Wow, good catch!!!!!!!!

  • LabsRawesome

    Lol.

  • Pattyvaughn

    ROFL!!! When you’re right, you’re right.

  • Cyndi

    Why did that guy pick Tinky’s Mom’s post to say he has “watched the Cindy incident”…. That’s awful ironic if you ask me. & wow, if you’re gonna act like different people, do a better job!

  • Melissaandcrew

    Gosh your writing style is familar..just csnt put my finger on which past poster it was.

  • Pattyvaughn

    So then as a medical professional, you believe that individuals that suffer from pancreatitis due to too much fat in the diet should not be concerned with fat levels in the diet, because that is what Cindy told someone on this blog. She then attacked me when I tried to set the record straight. By the way, your posting voice is very much like Cindy’s. You don’t complete thoughts, you use sentence fragments, and you seem to think that people won’t answer your post because of your ridiculous statement. I bet you would probably misspell as many names as Cindy too.

    Good Bye Cindy. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

  • InkedMarie

    Also, next time something here is difficult to watch, just “X” out of the website.

  • InkedMarie

    I believe cindy was blocked because of coming here under different identities. That’s not allowed. I have no idea how much you’ve read but you’re wrong about the Cindy situation. My problem with her is her continued posting things she “believed” that were false. Normally I wouldn’t care but when she gives incorrect advice to someone, advice that could really hurt a dog, I spoke up. I admit to her getting under my skin about a particular food, since its a food I use, love and a company I trust, that po’d me off. I called the company and was given false info from an employee and I was wrong. In that case, I didn’t spout info that I believed, I spouted info told to me by the company. There’s a difference

  • David Levine

    Looks to me that people get blocked from this website rather from having a different opinion than acting inappropriately. I have watched the Cindy incident and it became very apparent to me that ‘regular contributors’ on this site have acted with obscene language and profanity, insults and name-calling: and they are getting away with it! It appeared that Cindy and many others were just responding to their inappropriate acts, and the responses were not that inappropriately to me. The ‘regular contributors’ rallied up against her. It was difficult to watch. They have interestingly not been blocked. Interestingly, whenever someone has a different opinion the exact same ‘regular contributors’ are going up against that particular person in a group setting, they flag them all together they give them positive or negative votes-always the same people, making it look like anyone else is behind it- in an attempt to control them. Mike doesn’t seem to bother about their inappropriateness no matter how far they go. I have watched probably five other incidents just like this as well. As a result of all that the ‘regular contributors’ can still continuing while everyone else is ‘blocked’ so the same rule doesn’t appear to apply to all people.
    Subject Raw-feeding: I must completely agree with the person you obviously have something against. Interestingly the same ‘regular contributors’ who say it is 100% safe ‘for healthy dogs’ have admitted on this forum that their dogs have suffered from a couple of infectious diseases such as kidney infections or colitis. To me as a medical professional I know that there is a link between e coli bacteria in raw meat and possible infectious diseases that can contribute to kidney infections among of other possible medical implications. Stressing the body’s immunity that as to endure excessive amounts of bad bacteria can cause the body to suffer additional complications. While some of their dogs might do well others may suffer complications as the person who has been bullied has mentioned. I’m not against raw feeding what kind of meat is the question though.
    No one with just two years of experience of raw feeding like I have seen on this site can without a doubt say that raw feeding is 100% safe (for a healthy dog). The possible overload of bacteria can contribute to a new problem esp while feeding chicken raw.
    It amazes me to what extend the ‘regular contributors’ have gone on this site and promote pseudo science and tend to rally up against other people with different view points. They provoke them and act very selfishly.
    This site obviously lacks by the ‘regular contributors’ on respect and tolerance for other people’s point of views. These ‘regular contributors’ have hijacked this site and don’t provide any objective perspective. Perhaps the book by Sigmund Freud: Mass Psychology would shed light into the matter as they have fallen into the trap of mass psychology rallying and bullying people who are a bit different from them that -without a doubt- display a valid point.
    Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the myself and not of any third party. I do exercise my right not to respond to any attempts of down votes or rallying up against me as I have seen that such acts are conducted mostly by the exact same people in this group over and over again against one person, who conduct themselves according to the theories of S. Freud. I, as a medical professional, have the right to assert myself against bullying, against profanity, against dubious claims and against bias, if I wish based on Freedom of Speech. I also exercise my right not to respond to anyone and not to assert myself again, even it might be warranted.

    This is my only and final response to years of observation of the ‘Dog Food Adviser’: a site that should provide ‘unbiased’ reviews, as claimed and not bully, block and deny other people’s opinions making accusations but provide exceptions to some ‘favorates’.

  • InkedMarie

    Me too (on the pickiness). I may not feed prey model raw or barf but I can still be picky about what I do feed! Everybody should be, there’d be alot less dog food on shelves

  • aimee

    Thanks HDM,

    So it looks like Primal first than Northwest Naturals.

  • Hound Dog Mom
  • Hound Dog Mom

    Neither do I. I’ll probably have to add them to my don’t feed list (which is getting quite long – I’m so picky lol).

  • InkedMarie

    Hmm…if I ever get a call back, they’ll tell me the same thing. Proprietary info? I don’t like that.

  • aimee

    Hmmm… I was wondering if Primal is a company that had contracted through Morasch Meats to make their product.. like a co packer arrangement. Then at some point Morasch decided to market pet food themselves and created their own outlet ” Northwest Naturals”

    Which company came first Primal or Northwest?? I found a date for Primal as 2001 but no “start date” for Northwest .

  • InkedMarie

    I called NW Naturals yesterday, someone was supposed to call me back but no cll. Just called again, she said “we’re very busy around here”. Don’t think I like that answer. We’ll see if anyone calls me back

  • Hound Dog Mom

    “Proprietary” information is what Northwest Naturals told me lol. Appears as if there may indeed be some sort of connection though. I don’t know why they’d need to keep something like that a secret?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    For anyone who is interested in the recent issues brought up concerning Primal and Northwest Naturals.

    Yesterday I called Primal’s customer service and asked if they were owned by the same company as Northwest Naturals – the rep told me no. I then asked if there was any affiliation, the rep put me on hold to verify the information, then returned and told me there was no affiliation between Primal and Northwest Naturals.

    Today I called Northwest Naturals. I asked if they implement HPP on their products. They told me no they do not currently implement HPP on their products. However, they are considering starting to use HPP on their poultry formulas in the near future. I then asked if they are owned by the same company as Primal and the rep told me that was proprietary information.

  • aimee

    Here are other documents showing a connection either ongoing or in the past

    http://www.importgenius.com/importers/primalpet-foods-c-o
    Company Name Primalpet Foods C O
    Address
    MORASCH MEATS
    4050 NE 158TH PORTLAND,OR
    97230

    http://www.allthebestpetcare.com/2012/10/09/introducing-northwest-naturals/

    “The parent company of Northwest Naturals, Morasch Meats of Portland, OR,…… making foods for other raw food companies”

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I don’t know how you’d assume that from this post. No – healthy dogs aren’t at risk.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    To clarify – I never said I didn’t believe you about Northwest Naturals using HPP. I simply said if they do use HPP I believe that their website is deceptive. To be honest, it wouldn’t surprise me if they do use HPP as most companies (unfortunately) are these days. I just find it very odd there’s no mention of it on their website.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    If they do indeed use HPP then I’d label that as deceptive. I (and I know many others) don’t consider HPP to be “raw.” So to advertise on your website that your food is raw and not disclose that it’s actually HPP would be an attempt to deceive the buyer imo. All other companies I know of that use HPP (S&C, NV, Primal, etc.) openly disclose. I’m pretty sure I checked every page on NWN’s website and read everything and I didn’t see one mention of HPP.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Thanks Aimee! I’m going to call Northwest Naturals today and see what they have to say about it. I asked Primal if their foods were manufactured by NWN and the rep said no. I then asked if there was any affiliation between the two companies and she said she didn’t think so but put me on hold to double check. When she came back from asking whoever, she said there was no affiliation whatsoever. So the plot thickens…

  • Shawna

    Might not get any work done but we’d have fun!!! 🙂 LOL

  • InkedMarie

    say huh? LOL!! love ya, Shawna. I wish you were here so you could help. Then again, if you were here, we’d never get any work done LOL

  • Tinky’s Mom,

    Your mention of specific products and topics along with your unique behavior and posting style fits the same pattern exhibited by a previous visitor known for using fictitious identities to deceptively mislead and provoke others.

    According to our commenting policy:

    “…the use of multiple identities or other deceptive tactics designed to mislead readers are strictly forbidden.

    So, if we suspect you’re posting fraudulently, be prepared to verify your email address or to confirm your real name by providing your Facebook, Twitter or other established social media identity.”

    In an attempt to contact you directly to request proof of your identity, it was discovered that you are posting here using a fraudulent email address.

    Until I’m convinced you are a legitimate individual working with credible objectives, your posting privileges here have been revoked.

  • Tinky’s mom

    NW naturals don’t have the best costumer service. Email return is 3 days. But to me their food is superior to Primal or equal, the price is better too. I could explain it, but you can see for yourself looking at the ingredients, it is just my opinion. I don’t think they are deceptive, I just think they don’t have the best advertising skills. I would buy from them before I buy primal, probably won’t buy primal again, as there I have seen lack of integrity and knowledge on many instances. Both products I believe are quality and in the Northwest produce and meats are quality. It is all human grade.

  • Tinky’s mom

    You are right I’m back and telling you that I think they do, as explained in the post to Hound dog above.

  • Tinky’s mom

    Hound Dog Mom,

    You got inaccurate information from Primal questionable and unreliable costumer service, it is not true that there is NO affiliation as indirectly or directly there is depending how you look at it. The girl you talked to did not know much about anything, as I talked to her myself, and I myself had to explain it all to her.

    Mr. Morasch OWNS Northwest Natural food. I posted on this thread a couple of times Morasch meats make Primal and then one time said it was NW Natural. The parent company of Nw Natural is called Morasch meats, a USDA human facility processing human food. They are making their own pet food known as Northwest Natural in this facility as well. For a very long time now they also have been the makers for Primal frozen food.

    The same people, the same owners, the same facility is producing Primal food and Northwest Natural. One company is the parent company.

    Why I said Primal is made by Northwest Natural was is because all the pet stores around here say that. They officially say Morasch meats make Primal, as legally they have it set up as the Parent company. But in reality it is all the same. Northwest Natural people are the makers of Primal frozen foods. To us in our region it is all the same NW natural is Morasch meats.

    I have talked to the girl today myself the one you talked to at Primal and asked her why she was not so kind to explain it all to you. She is quiet rude. I was surprised how little she knows about Primal dog food as she had to ask someone else for all the answers. I also don’t need to get into details all the crab she told me, this is the 5th time in the past 10 days I was hearing and getting myself inconsistent and inaccurate information from Primal dog food company.

    Regarding HPP use:
    Here an email from Northwest Naturals about their use of HPP. It confirms what I said earlier that they use it for poultry, but not red meat:

    We are starting to HPP All poulty products.

    Lamb, Beef and Bison will not be HPP’s

    Thank you

    Patti

    Patti Salladay

    NW Naturals

    Sales & Marketing

    503-705-0112cell

    866-637-1872wk

    [email protected]

  • Shawna

    Sorry, I missed this…

    “There’s an app for that..” There’s an app for almost anything. 🙂 I haven’t done it with my iPad but have with my Android Phone. Works pretty slick.

    Here’s one for the iPhone that may work on the iPad too. Or, you can go to the app store from your iPad and search for “document scanner”. 🙂
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/doc-scan-scanner-to-scan-pdf/id453312964?mt=8

    It uses your camera to scan the documents. You can then store them, email them, fax them etc.

  • Tinky’s mom

    HoundDog Mom, this is incorrect, as stated earlier, Nw natural do the same. Nw natural and Primal food are made by the same people in the same facility. The owners of NW natural manufacturer Primal dog food. I know you did not believe me earlier but it is a fact. You also did not believe me on the HPP thing but it is a fact as well. Please see email below:

    We are starting to HPP All poulty products.
    Lamb, Beef and Bison will not be HPP’s
    Thank you
    Patti

    Patti Salladay
    NW Naturals
    Sales & Marketing
    503-705-0112cell
    866-637-1872wk
    [email protected]

  • Tinky’s mom

    WOW, you are changing now your opinion???…

  • Tinky’s mom

    That is the stuff I was talking about, as an example they had salmonella, but I am a person that trusts my intuition. I feel more comfortable cooking a little bit white meat and give only the red raw. Of course I know that they had issues with hamburgers, but it is usually the poultry and then hamburgers (example bravo recall or primal recall). Has to do with how they raise and process the cows, and the fact that ground meat is more processed, so more chances of contamination I guess.

  • Tinky’s mom

    Shawna, I know of course. In the reports of the FDA they talked about antibiotic resistant bacteria but the findings also concluded that it is similar with salmonella or e coli.

  • InkedMarie

    Spongy, squishy….whatever it is, it made me completely uninterested in serving it again

  • InkedMarie

    Forgot to say, I’m not surprised they don’t make Primal. I’m sure “TinkysMom” will come back & say she thought they did. Well, probably not since I posted this. Lol

  • InkedMarie

    I called Northwest Naturals, woman didnt have the answer but would call me back when she does.

  • aimee

    Glad it isn’t just me… I was not even sure if “spongy” was the best way to describe it.

  • InkedMarie

    I agree about the sponginess. I fed one bag/sleeve of it & that’s just what it looked like. When I opened my first package of Darwin’s, I was sort of taken aback at how much it looked like real meat, especially compared to S & C

  • InkedMarie

    What? Are you saying I can scan with this thing? I’m serious, how do I do that?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Tinky’s Mom –

    I just got off the phone with Primal’s customer service and (as I thought) Primal has no affiliation with Northwest Naturals. I contacted Northwest Naturals as well concerning their use of HPP and they were out at a demonstration the woman I need to speak to is calling me back tomorrow and I will post my findings on that.

  • aimee

    Got it!

  • Shawna

    Good find Losul!! Thanks for that!!

  • Shawna

    I found the below quote from the paper VERY interesting (as well as something we both, and others, already know).. 🙂 I know you will too..

    “Vaccines, including genetically modified organisms, may be used in some organic (nonconventional) systems (114). However, for these systems, most growers prefer probiotics and prebiotics to control Salmonella (41). Probiotics are live cultures of beneficial microorganisms given to the birds in either the feed or water, and prebiotics are indigestible substrates that select for a specific population of beneficial bacteria (48, 60). These treatments attempt to manipulate the microbiota within the gut, which can provide protection against colonization of Salmonella in several ways: (i) production of antimicrobial substances (volatile fatty acids, bacteriocins, or hydrogen peroxide), (ii) reduction of the availability of niches for colonization, (iii) competition for limited nutrients, and (iv) stimulation of the immune system (35, 48, 60). In addition to limiting Salmonella, probiotics and prebiotics can also provide protection against other pathogens, including E. coli, Yersinia enterocolitica, and Campylobacter jejuni (107).”

    The paper goes on to state how pro and prebiotics have limited value due to colonization when the bird is taken off the supplements for processing.. BUT, we don’t have to worry about that if we feed these to our pups and take ourselves… 🙂

  • losul

    I think poultry has much higher incidence of Salmonella contamination than beef or other mammals, but I also think the reverse is true for E-coli.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Interesting. I wonder if S. Heidelberg is more problematic for dogs as well?

  • Shawna

    I thought the very same thing about higher incidence during procesing due to small size… Makes perfect sense!!

    PS, I posted an interesting research article below.

  • Shawna

    I did a quick google search and found an interesting research paper.

    The increase in salmonella contamination in poultry is due to many factors — an increased consumption of poultry, a large number of birds being raised in confinement operations as two examples.

    But what I found very interesting is that poultry carries a particularly problematic salmonella serovar for humans.

    “S. Heidelberg is also among the most commonly detected serovars from poultry and is among the top five serotypes associated with human salmonellosis (25, 46). Compared to other gastroenteritis-causing Salmonella serovars, which usually cause mild to moderate and self-limiting illness, S. Heidelberg tends to cause invasive infections.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3127710/
    That would certainly warrant extra precaution.

  • aimee

    I always thought poultry was more likely to be contaminated because of the a higher frequency of salmonella infection in the species and perhaps higher incidence of opening the intestinal tract during processing due to small size of carcass??? In actuality though I don’t know….

  • Shawna

    I might tend to agree with you if they weren’t such sticklers about pasteurization of dairy products… I actually think it has far more to do with politics and money than it does with true health concerns.

    The consistency of NV did change after they began using HPP. My dogs wouldn’t eat it after implementation. Also, the different companies utilize the process differently. Sandy gave me the specs S&C uses (temp and time) versus that used by NV — Sandy worked for NV before moving to S&C but I believe the move happened before NV started utilizing HPP.

    I sure do wish Healthy Pets forum was not taken down.. There was a TON of valuable inforamtion in there…

  • Shawna

    Hi 🙂

    My statement was in general not just in regards to Primal. Milk and eggs are supposed to be highly contaminated as well. Yet it has more to do with the raising of the animal and processing than it does the product itself. I wonder if chicken is the same way?

    In the movie Fast Food Nation they discussed how the processing of beef allows for contamination of the product. A high amount of the burgers eaten at fast food restaurants, as an example, are contaminated with cow feces and feces is a source of bacterial contamination. Unless McDonalds and such have their own processing plants, that same feces would be in store bought ground beef as well..?

    Regarding Primal however, this apparent contamination was with ecoli not salmonella.

  • losul

    Color change linked to oxidation/peroxidation?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    The HPP Primal mixes I used were spongy, as well as gray in color and had “rinds.”

  • aimee

    To keep FDA happy though I would think the frequency that Salmonella is found in the food has to be rare.

    If the frequency of positives is high, I don’t think FDA cares if HPP was used or not. If the end result isn’t fewer positives I don’t see why a company would invest in it.

    The Stella and Chewys seems “spongy” to me. When I used Natures Variety it didn’t seem that way but maybe that was pre HPP

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Yeah, that’s what’s hard about treating when you feed raw. It’s hard to find something higher value than raw green tripe, pork necks, etc. 🙁 I guess the peanut butter wasn’t enough lol

  • aimee

    I think where I had a bit of an edge is that her basic food is boring so the foods I use in training are “high value” Work with her when she is hungry (motivation) and condition her to the sound, sound precedes food. Sounds on…food.. sound off (as she finishes the food). Only when she comes running when she hears you turn the brush on should you move on to the next step.

    Brooke took a few weeks to adjust to the vibration. She still gets ticklish with incisors so I leave those til last than reward.

  • Shawna

    LOL!! You’re gonna have to learn to use that iPad to its fullest potential :)… Hee hee hee

    Pretty soon you’ll have so many handwritten notes that you won’t be able to find the data you are looking for. Then you’ll have to use your iPad to scan in every page and upload it to Dropbox or something similar. 🙂

  • Shawna

    Apparently they are creating more super bugs with the process as well.. 🙁

    Also, depending on the time and amount of pressure used it can actually “heat” the food being presurized. And, it denatures, or otherwise damages, the heme protein in the meats which is the reason for the color change. Sandy of S&C assured me this does nothing to impact the nutrition of the meat and said the same color change occurs when the meat is left in the fridge too long.

    Sandy was able to refute every concern I had but I still have my doubts..

  • Shawna

    I had a conversation with Sandy Goodman, CEO of Stella & Chewys, on the Mercola Healthy Pets forum regarding HPP. From memory, Sandy told me that HPP is being implemented to protect manufacturers from being shut down. Apparently they don’t get too many strikes before hefty measures are taken by the FDA (or whatever local agency steps in?).

    That would be enough incentive, I am sure, to entice any CEO to implement the process..

  • losul

    In this video, on human meats I presume, it looks like the meats are in some kind of packaging, whether it’s the final packaging or not?

    The machinery looks expensive, the whole process looks like both time consuming and expensive. Apparently it is pressurized in water.

    http://www.avure.com/flash/HPP350L150K.asp

  • AJ

    Thanks everyone for your help and opinions….Tonka is a little better today. He is on a boiled chicken and rice diet for a few days and on antibiotics. If, and this is a big “if”, I decide to do raw again, I might do darwin’s pet food. The only reason why I am even thinking of changing his food is because he is not eating his kibble and I feel like he needs something fresh. Anyways, thanks again.

  • InkedMarie

    Thanks for clarifying, added it to my notes (handwritten, unlike Shawna LOL). BTW, I have the phone number for Northwest Naturals handy, will call late this morning to see if they really make Primal. I hadn’t heard that.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Yes.

  • InkedMarie

    Am I reading right, are you saying that NV, S & C and Stewarts uses HPP on ALL of their frozen?

  • InkedMarie

    I was thinking the same thing. I;m pretty sure no one ever mentioned Morash meats til Cindy found her way here.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I wasn’t aware of this but I’ll check into it. I can’t find any information on Northwest Naturals’ website (or anywhere else on the internet) stating that they use HPP which I find odd (if they do). Other companies that use HPP seem to happily advertise it and have sections dedicated to it in their FAQ’s. I was able to locate an outside website that claims Northwest Naturals has a special “flash freezing” process designed to preserve the integrity of their raw food and decrease the chances for bacterial contamination but nothing about HPP. If it does turn out that they use HPP, I would (unfortunately) have to place them under the deceptive category. I don’t think it’s right to implement HPP on a product and not blatantly advertise it.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I tried them out last night. Gertie (as expected) was pretty accepting – especially considering I used peanut butter for “toothpaste.” Mabel put up more of a fight, I think I’ll try the technique you used with Brooke – it could take her a week or two to warm up to it. I wish there were silent spinbrushes, I think it’s the sound that’s the issue not the spinning.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Well seeing as manufacturers hold HPP food post-processing and test for bacterial contamination (or at least claim they do) – it should be free of bacteria when it heads to packaging. Whether this is the case or not I do not know – I would be more apt to believe the contamination occurs post-processing.

  • Tinky’s mom

    Hound Dog mom, Northwest Naturals is the maker of Primal. Same process like Primal here.

  • Tinky’s mom

    Shawna, I did not base what I was stating on assumptions:Matt Koss, founder and president of primal food also stated that there is an issue with poultry, according to the findings of the government (FDA)-below one of the emails I have received from Matt Koss, founder and President of Primal food dated July 1, 2013 which supports what I’m stating.

    “Glad to have clarified the situation for you.

    Yes, Morasch is a quality operation, for many, many years.

    HPP is a necessary as the FDA regulation is zero tolerance for pathogens in all packaged pet food. Without a step such as HPP, poultry products are out of compliance as a high percentage of poultry products for human consumption are contaminated with Salmonella.

    Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

    Best Regards,

    Matt
    _____
    Matt Koss
    Founder, President
    Primal Pet Foods”

  • Tinky’s mom

    I’m not sure sure about your assumption of ground meat.

    The meats have been tested by the government based on regular grocery store products. All the poultry showed a problem, not the red meat. I’m not sure if there was a difference if it is ground or not, I just base it on reports.

    In addition, I have had multiple conversations with the founder and president of Primal food. He himself told me that red meat is not a problem regarding bacteria, it is the poultry. This is why they only use HPP on the poultry, not the red meat.

    Primal has had once a recall and it was the chicken and salmon that was contaminated as far as I know.

  • aimee

    That makes sense.. the meats in the video looked like they were in vacuum packed packages. Seems like since kibble gets contaminated post extrusion it could be just as likely that the raw could get contaminated post HPP. The companies though must see benefit in this process Hmm I’ll have to try and find out more about this.

  • aimee

    Woo Hoo Let me know how it goes! I had to first pair the sound with food and then the vibration ( on Brooke’s neck) with food before moving into the mouth.

  • Shawna

    I’m not sure if that is true or not, it sounds odd, but it really doesn’t matter as all commercially prepared raw foods that have been discussed here are ground.

  • Tinky’s mom

    It sounded like from at least one post to me that there was a question, how come this happened-HPP was used as this destroys the bad bacteria, so therefore the product may have been contaminated afterwards..that is how I understood your posting, indicating that HPP destroys (maybe all)bad bacteria.
    I agree with you that the good bacteria are destroyed as well,and therefore cannot combat the bad.

    But it is my understanding that not all bad bacteria is destroyed with HPP.

    I’m also wondering that perhaps the cavalier had an issue as maybe he was not given probiotics and it is not used to the raw? Maybe another dog used to raw and being fed probiotics for years may have been able to combat the e coli.

  • Tinky’s mom

    I must have read it on someone else’ s post then. Sorry.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Nowhere did I state “K9” uses HPP.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I don’t believe I claimed it was? It can leave behind spores. IMO – this is why it’s best to nut use HPP. The good bacteria are destroyed and aren’t there to combat the bad.

  • Tinky’s mom

    But from what I read is that HPP doesn’t destroy all the bad bacteria.It is not a 100% process.

  • Tinky’s mom

    Ok i see, so you are saying, Primal and Bravo don’t use HPP on red meat.All others do on all meat, those you have mentioned. Don’t know about all of them as this is a new process. I know for sure that Primal and NorthWest Naturals only use HPP on poultry for sure.
    You have also stated that K9 uses HPP but they told me that they do not.????

  • Tinky’s mom

    My name is not Cindi and I never have used different nick names unless it was a typo.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I would argue it’s safe due to the fact that I’ve fed three dogs raw poultry daily for two years and never had a dog get sick. I’m also not as “cleanly” as I should be (admittedly) when handling raw meat and I’ve never gotten sick. Until something happens that makes me believe otherwise I will stand by the statement that raw poultry is safe for healthy dogs.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    No – Primal and Bravo are the only companies that do this. Nature’s Variety and Stella and Chewy’s use HPP on all formulas.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Now I’m seeing it.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Just about word for word.

  • Storm’s Mom

    You sound an awful lot like a Cindy that was on here a couple weeks ago….

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi AJ –

    Yes, generally speaking, it is safe for a dog to eat raw chicken. There can be bacteria in chicken (as there can be in any raw meat) but if the dog is healthy it should not pose a problem. My dogs eat raw poultry for dinner every evening and have never had an issue. It’s about the strength of the dog’s immune system.

  • Tinky’s mom

    I need to say something else about Primal: I emailed them 1 week ago, asking them if they use any products from China or if they EVER have used in their foods any products from China. They assured me that they don’t and never have. Then I presented them with a piece of paper I have located where it stated that a couple of years ago they important a product (it looked like it was something ‘small’ like sunflower seeds) directly from China. In fact, it was shipped for them directly to Morash meats, to make their food. Morash meats make their food in Portland. The founder and president of Primal answered me and I ended up having a couple of conversations with him personally. He did admit, as he had to, that they did purchase something, but it had to to with treats. He also claimed it was a canadian company, even though the paper showed, that they directly imported from china, and nothing from Canada was on the papers.

    Again, I caught him in a lie, as Morash meats make their frozen food, not their treats. It was delivered to be processed at Morash meats for them, for their frozen food, not in their California facility where they make the treats, in the facility where the meats are made.

    In other words, I caught them more than 2 x in a lie. Or let’s say the president was a bit intellectually dishonest, trying to downplay the issue. I don’t want to be hard on them, as they seem nice people who make good food. But just thought I mention it. They made a bit of a mistake and tried to cover it up, and this is probably how most companies would handle it. Not much integrity though.

  • Tinky’s mom

    AJ; I don’t know if you saw my recent post above. I did lots of research on it, and the FDA finds that there is lots of bacteria in poultry, but raw feeders would argue it is safe as the dogs can usually handle the bacteria.

    It is possible that a dog that is used to it would have maybe being able to handle the issue.

    I read an FDA report, stating that 70% of the poultry in grocery stores have antibiotic resistant bacteria in them. Less than 10% in red meat (the numbers could vary a bit). It is more difficult for bacteria to get into red meat than white meat, because it is more dense

    My personal preference is to cook the poultry and to give the red meat (mainly lamb) raw.

    I also would add some probiotics for your dog, as the good bacteria can handle the bad bacteria, and it is important for health. There are supplements or you can simply give yoghurt or kefir. This way you will have a lesser chance of having an issue in the future, even there would be slight contamination.

    When you touch the raw you should also wash your hands, and i never heard of anyone having an issue before. (I said more on top of this page just a minute ago).

    However, I would not purchase the Primal poultry frozen raw for 2 reasons:no 1: I don’t think HPP is a good process, and no 2 I believe that poultry is often contaminated. It doesn’t mean that my dogs would have an issue, but I rather don’t give it to them based on a personal preference.

    You should not have an issue however, purchasing raw red meat like for instance the lamb from Primal, regarding bacteria and it is not treated with HPP.

    Bacteria issues on raw meat occur merely on poultry.

    I hope this helps.

  • Tinky’s mom

    Hi AJ;
    Regarding the Primal e coli issue: it is eater possible that you got an old batch, as they did not start to use HPP until very recently, the meat was afterwards contaminated, or the HPP was not very effective (it is not 100%).

    I always wash my hands before and after touching the raw meat, but I doubt that this was an issue here, I do believe it is possible that Primal dog food was contaminated.

    According to the FDA poultry has large amounts of bacteria, red meat usually not, as it is more thick. Dogs however should be able to handle it, I feed my dogs lots of probiotics (from yoghurt or kefir, with at least 10 different positive strains), therefore the good bacteria can more easily fight the bad ones

    Primal (and other companies) started doing HPP ONLY on poultry. I only feed the red (mainly) lamb raw, and cook chicken or turkey In spite the arguments I rather cook the poultry as red meat as is not as contaminated. I don’t feel comfortable feeding poultry raw to my dogs, it is a personal preference, even though I have never heard of an issues until now.

    I feed my dogs in the morning some kibble or some pre made raw, frozen, I would consider most brands but only the red meat due to either bacteria on poultry or HPP used.

    I also feed sometimes in the morning the Ziwipeak venison the dehydrated food. I get usually a 2.2 # bag for $ 25 online at dog.com. This food is excellent as an alternative to ‘real raw’. I would give it in rotation only though, not a main food.

    In the evening, I give them either my home made meal or give them raw or cooked meat and add a premix. With the premix you can either cook the meat or give it raw and add the premix. The premix has everything they need. I prefer Grandma Lucy Artisian and Urban Wolf above all others. And I add Fish oil.
    So you get the premix (without meat) in it, and all you have to do is adding meat and fish oil.

  • AJ

    Ok I saw it. Sorry for all the questions. So generally speaking, is it safe for a dog to eat raw chicken?

  • Tinky’s mom

    Hound Dog, Primal and other companies only use HPP on poultry.Others such as Bison, Lamb and Beef are not treated, as bacteria is not an issue. Because the meat is more thin, bacteria can get easier into poultry, vs. red meat.

  • Tinky’s mom

    I have seen you posts earlier, and I must say Annaemat is excellent food! I myself feed kibble and raw (not at the same time). Primal used to have issues of contamination, but only their poultry is treated with HPP, and it is also possible that you got an old batch, which was not treated yet, as they just started very recently to do that.

  • losul

    I wonder then if chemical migration from the packaging material into the meat is a concern.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi AJ –

    The food was re-contaminated at some point post-processing (please read through the above discussion between myself, Shawna and Aimee) – this is how kibble becomes contaminated with bacteria as well (the extrusion process kills all bacteria in kibble yet we are seeing the many salmonella recalls because it becomes contaminated post-processing) or it could be possible your dog ate something else that was contaminated.

  • AJ

    So let me understand something. Primal dog food basically removes the bacteria in their food? So if that’s true how did my dog get sick?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hey Aimee – off the topic of HPP but I wanted to let you know I picked the girls up some spinbrushes today! I’ll have to see how this goes over – I’m not too concerned about Gertie but Mabel could be a problem..

  • Shawna

    I HATE it when companies do that!!! Maybe you were the first to report the problem.. Wonder if they considered that??? Ughhh..

    I would definitley contact the FDA. There’s a place you can do it online..
    https://www.safetyreporting.hhs.gov/fpsr/WorkflowLoginIO.aspx?metinstance=D842A7A063FAFDEB17009C26F72387B35164724D

    or you can call them – the number for your state is listed in the following link http://www.fda.gov/Safety/ReportaProblem/ConsumerComplaintCoordinators/default.htm

  • Hound Dog Mom

    As far as I know the food is processed and then packaged – which is the problem. 🙁

    I found this concerning Nature’s Variety:

    “For Nature’s Variety, both pre-packaged and final retail packaged products are processed at UPC. Its pre-packed products are delivered pre-ground and blended to UPC in bulk, vacuum-packed bags. After they are processed, the products are held for 24 hours at UPC’s facility for pathogen testing, after which they are returned to the Nature’s Variety facility for final forming into medallions, patties, and chubs in various packaging formats.”

    So the food is ground, vacuum packed in bulk, sent to the processing facility, held for 24 hours, tested for bacteria, then shipped back to NV’s processing plant and made into patties/chubs/etc. and packaged for retail. Sounds like a a lot of room for re-contamination.

  • AJ

    I did and they told me that they did not have any problems with any recent batches and told me it could possibly be I left the food out the fridge too long and it got contaminated.

  • Shawna

    AJ, I think it is VERY important that you or your vet contact Primal (and possibly the FDA) to let them know of your incident.

  • Shawna

    That’s a good point aimee! It seems to me I watched a video regarding packaged meats and they were done post packaging..

    I don’t know the answer regarding dog foods but my guess is that it is prior to packaging as the bags have air in them. Pressure pasteurizing with that amount of air would surely cause damage to the bag if not cause it to actually pop open I would guess?

    I have been told by a Primal sales rep that Primal uses the least amount of pressure of all the foods currently (a yearish ago) subjected to HPP. Maybe some bacteria escaped the process?

  • aimee

    HDM et al : )

    Do you know if the companies that use HPP process the food before or after it is sealed into the bags as the final to consumer form?

    I’m asking because I watched a video on it from the Stella and Cheweys link and the foods in the video were all processed after being sealed in the final packaging ( wasn’t dog food though in the video). If this is how it is done then I wouldn’t expect post “kill step” contamination.

  • AJ

    Blood and stool test.

  • losul

    AJ, I’m just wondering how your vet determined it was e-coli poisoning?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    You need to do what you feel comfortable doing. I don’t want to push you in the direction of raw if you’re leery of it – but, as Shawna just stated, this is the exception not the rule and it could happen on any food (even kibble). If you want to give it another go, that’s great. If not and you’re still looking to get away from kibble there are cooked products (some frozen such as Lucky Dog or refrigerated such as Fresh Pet), dehydrated and canned foods you could consider.

  • AJ

    Do you think I should put him on a different raw food once he gets better?

  • Shawna

    Wow in looking back through your postings, you’ve had quite the experience with foods :(… Doesn’t seem like anything you’ve tried recently has really worked for your little guy.. That must be very frustrating… 🙁

    Like HDM I’ve been feeding raw for quite some time, over eight years. I currently have 8 dogs that all get raw food with every meal. I also foster and have had over 30 dogs in my home that have all eaten some raw. Not one of the 38 dogs in my care have ever come down with a bacterial contamination (that I am aware of).

    I know this experience you have had is likely to forever jade you towards raw, as it would many, but do know that your experience is the exception and not the rule..

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Not at this time, there are a few that don’t – Darwin’s, Nature’s Logic, Answer’s, Aunt Jeni’s and K9 Kraving don’t which I know for sure. I also don’t believe Northwest Naturals, Vital Essentials or K9 Natural do. Although, I think it’s going to be becoming more common or possibly even required with the new regulations the FDA is putting in place. 🙁

  • AJ

    do all the pre made raw dog food do that?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Primal uses high pressure processing on their chicken formula – this is essentially pasteurization to destroy bad bacteria. So this wasn’t actually a “raw” food your dog was eating. Food such as kibble, canned foods, or HPP “raw” foods undergo processing which destroys the bad bacteria (such as e. coli). Unfortunately, these sterilization processes can’t prevent a food from becoming re-contaminated after processing. Myself and many of the other raw feeders on this site have serious concerns about the HPP process many commercial per food manufacturers (such as Primal) are now implementing. The problem is HPP not only destroys the “bad” bacteria, but it also destroys the “good” bacteria. So, in the event that that bad bacteria is re-introduced at some point post-processing, there is no “good” bacteria to keep it in check.

    This is an excerpt from an article about HPP published in Pet Health & Nutrition Center’s blog:

    “While I acknowledge that HPP destroys pathogenic bacteria, a concern is the fact that the beneficial bacteria, enzymes and other functional proteins are known to be destroyed during this process. But what effects don’t we know about at this time? Well, one thing we do know is that the beneficial bacteria found on raw food products, as well as those found in your gastrointestinal tract, are responsible for keeping colonies of pathogenic bacteria from multiplying quickly through competitive inhibition (competing for growth). This leads to my primary concern, which is, once these friendly bacteria are destroyed along with the unfriendly bacteria, there is nothing to keep the pathogenic bacteria from growing out-of-control if the food product is re-contaminated during manufacturing. This is exactly what has happened with several popular brands of kibble dog food recently, as well as overthe last several decades, and this re-contamination with pathogenic bacteria, like Salmonella, after the cooking process, without the presence of friendly bacteria, can make people and animals sick. I fear
    raw pet food manufacturers, like Nature’s Variety and Stella and Chewy’s, are opening up a Pandora’s Box by using HPP, I hope others don’t follow suit.”

    I have fed true raw for a few years now and none of my crew have ever gotten sick – but they are also very healthy with strong immune systems and receive foods rich in healthy bacteria (probiotics) and anti-bacterial additions to their meals (i.e. apple cider vinegar, coconut oil, garlic, alfalfa, etc.).

    Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience. 🙁

  • AJ

    Chicken formula and ecoli poison

  • Hound Dog Mom

    That’s strange because Primal uses HPP on most of their formulas (high pressure processing to destroy bacteria making the food technically not “raw”). What formula did you feed? What type of poisoning did the vet determine he had?

  • AJ

    So a little update on my experience with this food. I started transitioning my King Charles to this food about 4 days ago. At first he was inhaling his food. Yesterday I noticed he was acting strange. He would not move from one corner. He wouldn’t eat or drink. This morning he started shaking. I took him to the vet and turns out he got poisoning from the raw food. I’ve never seen him as sick as I’ve seen him today. I don’t think I will use primal or raw food.

  • AJ

    So would you say this is better than orijen or Annamaet?

  • AJ

    Yes and I’ve heard so many good things about raw diet.

  • Betsy Greer

    OK, gotcha. I thought that’s what you said you were most recently using. You said your pup was going well on Orijen, right? Is there a reason you’re wanting to switch? I know his hip was bothering him recently, is that why you’re feeling you should switch?

  • AJ

    Ya that’s what I meant to say.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi AJ,

    Aren’t you currently feeding Orijen?

  • Shawna

    Like HDM said, it depends on the individual. Almost every single one of my foster dogs have had mild and intermittent diarrhea along with mucousy stools when I transition them (always cold turkey). Oh, and some get eye goobers. I always have canned pumpkin and high quality probiotics on hand to help with the transition. Usually after about two weeks the diarrhea etc subsides.

    If you want to transition slowly you can add raw as a topper to his Annamaet and increase as you see fit.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    All of my dogs have switched right to raw cold turkey with no digestive issues. Gertie and Gus switched directly from The Honest Kitchen and canned to raw and Mabel switched directly from Pro Plan to raw.

  • AJ

    How easy is it to transition him? He’s currently eating Annamaet.

  • Jan_Mom2Cavs

    I agree with Shawna. My Cavaliers (and they’re seniors) have eaten Primal raw before and it was fine.

  • Shawna

    Yep, can’t think of any reasons why it wouldn’t be safe for an otherwise healthy dog of any breed.. Do you have specific concerns though?

  • AJ

    I was wondering if this is safe to feed a King Charles spaniel?

  • Elani Hantel

    My little dogs love all the beef and chicken, but not the rabbit. They tried to cover it. Then I decided to give it to my big dogs for treats and they refused to eat it also. Has anyone else had this problem with the rabbit? Do you think it was bad?

  • beaglemom

    I opened a bag of the Pheasant last night and after thawing it noticed it has quite a pungent odor. It’s hard to describe… I wouldn’t say it smells like it’s gone bad, but it makes me want to wrinkle my nose… Has anyone else had this experience? The dogs didn’t bat an eye and ate the little that i gave them… but they’re the type that eat now and think later. I don’t think I feel comfortable continuing with it smelling like it does. On a side note, after the last bag of non-HPP Primal we had (venison) and using Darwin’s, I’m never getting anything HPP again — doesn’t even resemble real meat. I only picked this up in hopes of giving them some variety.

  • InkedMarie

    Darwin’s is a great product. You probably know they offer a nice trial size

  • Thanks for your response. She only just started doing this and only with the raw chicken. No problems with her kibble or wet food whatsoever.

    I just offered her the raw primal duck and she did finish it. Now to see if she holds it down.

  • An update…she finally did finish the duck. Now I use have to see if she keeps it down.

  • Guest

    An update….she finally did finish the duck. Now I have to see if she keeps it down.

  • Thanks for the response. This is so baffling to me. I gave her kibbles this morning and she was fine, ate them all, very hungry as usual. I offered her the primal duck now and she is just putting it in her mouth chewing and putting it n the floor. She was fine for a couple weeks eating the chicken. It seems the texture is not what she likes, but who knows.

    I’m thinking of trying Darwin’s and already spoke to someone there in length. I’m thinking of calling her and ordering their food and see if she can offer any explanations this may be happening. I’m really uncomfortable with giving my dogs meat and bones from the butcher.

  • Shawna

    Raw feeding vet Dr. Karen Becker has an article on vomitting and regurgitation. In the article she discusses some causes of regurgitation.

    “Motility disorders or problems with the muscle contractions of the esophagus can be either congenital or acquired. An acquired motility disorder can be caused by esophagitis (inflammation of the esophagus), hypoadrenocorticism (which is the fancy name for Addison’s disease), lead toxicity, organophosphate toxicity, myasthenia gravis (a neuromuscular disorder), and possibly hypothyroidism. Megaesophagus or an enlarged esophagus can also cause regurgitation in many pets.” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/12/17/vomiting-vs-regurgitating.aspx

    Just a few weeks ago I posted some data from Certified Pet Nutritionist Monica Segal on megaesophagus.. Monica is an advocate of raw and home cooked diets. She believes food allergies/intolerances can be a cause.. With this in mind, I think it would be a good idea to try a different protein source. And like Gordon, I think it is wise to rotate proteins on a regular basis.

    From Monica’s article (note — she doesn’t mention chicken but chicken has the same “lectin” proteins that gluten grains have and can be a cause of food intolerances in dogs. My Pom is intolerant of chicken.)

    “Certain
    Food Items Are a Must to Avoid
    Gluten Is At the Top of the
    List!
    Some grains contain gluten and
    some dogs react to it. These same dogs may be quite able to digest gluten-free
    sources of carbohydrates which include: potato, sweet potato, rice, quinoa,
    buckwheat (not derived from wheat despite the name), amaranth, corn (not advised
    for some dogs – see notes above), and millet.” http://www.gsdhelp.info/gastro/meganutritional.html
    Good Luck!!!!!

  • Guest

    That’s unusual but possible. Dogs absolutely become bored of the same old food day in day out, so that could also be what is happening. I would have thought that it would take a dog a little longer than 3 weeks to get to that point. I would advise that you do mix it up and alternate with different flavours for the purpose of variety and indeed protein sources.

    Why not try alternating raw meaty bones such as chicken wings, maryland, frames (carcasses), backs, turkey necks, wings, lamb briskets, pork briskets, rabbit carcasses, duck, whole fresh unscaled un-gutted fish etc etc. All these are easy to buy from your local butcher(s) (check out a few if not all carry above, or pre-order etc) Place such in freezer bags and into your freezer and when when you’re going to feed your dog such at night or the evening, take a bag out and have or thaw in the fridge all day, or if feeding during the day and it’s hot, dogs enjoy frozen raw meaty bones. They can also be main meals and in fact they are for my dogs. I noticed some recent comments in the Suggested Raw Section and I’d like to add a few more cents and elaborate on this further and how to introduce raw offal and some additional information. I’ve not much time now, as I’m busy with other household errands, but I hope this is of some use to you, if nothing at all.

  • I started my puppy, 11 month Yorkie now, on primal chicken about 3 weeks ago. She transitioned beautifully and loved it, until this week. She started regurgitating it about a half hour after eating. Now she will not eat the chicken. I’m only offering it for her morning feeding now as she can’t be doing this all day. Should I try a different protein at this point? Maybe she tired of it? I’m so disappointed.

  • Diane

    sandy Pkgraham • 8 months ago
    Be careful of Nature’s Instinct products. I found this review regarding their use of rabbit from China. Stella and Chewy does not, and they are very good about responding to questions. My pet store owner was still waiting for a response from Nature’s Variety.

    You can email them and they will tell you. It’s been a while since I got that kind of info. The rabbit for the frozen raw and the kibble and canned come from different places. China, Italy or France. But that was over a year ago.

    From an old email:

    “Our ingredients are sourced from different locations, depending on the time of year and batch. The rabbit protein we use in our raw diet is from China. The rabbit in our canned is sourced from Italy and China, while the rabbit in our kibble is from France.”0

    Reply

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Laura –

    The best website concerning homemade food – imo – is Dog Aware. There’s a ton of info there. http://dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html.

    I’m not sure if you’re interested in raw or cooked homemade but “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown is a wonderful resource for first time raw feeders.

    If you go to the forum section there’s some good tips, suggestions and recipes there as well. I actually have “recipes” for what I feed my dogs posted in the menus section (I feed raw). I did a nutrient analysis on my latest menus and they exceed the AAFCO nutrient standards for all life stages. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/menus/page/3/

    Pre-mixes and vitamin/mineral balances are always a good option for beginners as well. With a pre-mix all you generally have to do is add water and fresh raw or cooked meat – the mix contains the fruits, vegetables, vitamins, minerals, etc. Some good pre-mixes are The Honest Kitchen’s Preference, Urban Wolf, Sojo’s, Grandma Lucy’s, Dr. Harvey’s and Birkdale. With vitamin/mineral mixes you just add meat to create a complete and balanced meal – fruits, vegetables, etc. can be added as up to 20% of the meal but it’s optional. Some vitamin/mineral mixes are See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix (formulated by Steve Brown who wrote “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet that I mentioned earlier), U-Stew and Wysong’s Call of the Wild.

  • Cate

    Dr Karen Becker DVM has a good health website & many recipe books for pet food along with diet additives to keep digestive tract healthy.

  • Laura

    can anyone here recommend a resource for making a homemade diet? there’s so much information and my head is swimming. i’d love a recipe if anyone wants to share. really wanting to make the food from scratch, but want to make sure it’s balanced and complete.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Sarah K –

    Heart is high quality lean protein, however large volumes of heart can cause loose stools in some dogs. I have 3 large bloodhounds that eat a homemade raw diet and while they do get a meal with some ground beef a few times a week – the majority of their muscle meat comes from heart, tripe, gizzards and what muscle meat is on their RMB’s. While things like boneless chicken breast, lean ground meat, etc. sound appealing to people, they aren’t any nutritionally superior to heart, gizzards, tripe, etc. which are much cheaper (in fact I would argue that heart, gizzards, tripe, etc. are more nutritious for dogs). With three dogs that, combined, consume 6+ lbs. of meat per day I would never be able to afford to feed things like lean ground lamb or beef on a daily basis. With this said, I will agree with you that with the price tag Primal carries there should be some lean ground beef or lamb in the mix. I get my heart, gizzards, liver, etc. for under $1.00 a pound. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with heart being the main source of muscle meat, but the price tag should reflect that. Also, I would like to see at least one other type of organ meat in the mix – 10% of a dog’s diet should be comprised of organ meat and only half of that should be liver. I’ve used the Primal “Mixes” and “Grinds” in the past, which also utilize heart as the muscle meat, and my dogs had no issues with it.

  • Sarah. K

    I see Primal’s Lamb and Beef formulas only contain Lamb/Beef Hearts and Livers as their ONLY meat source. You mean wolves and other carnivores will only eat hearts and livers of their preys??? I tried it because of its 5 star rating here and after transitioning them from Nature’s Variety, my dogs experienced bouts of diarrhea and I am noticing increased fur loss and chewing. Primal might be a lot of things but not all their formulas are equal. For a brand with such a hefty price tag, I would expect no less from them.

  • Sarah. K

    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/primal-freeze-dried-formula/

    I see Primal’s Lamb and Beef formulas only contain Lamb/Beef Hearts and Livers as their ONLY meat source. You mean wolves and other carnivores will only eat hearts and livers of their preys??? I tried it because of its 5 star rating here and after transitioning them from Nature’s Variety, my dogs experienced bouts of diarrhea and I am noticing increased fur loss and chewing. I see that Primal adds synthetic minerals into their formulas including Sodium Selenite and the long term toxicity from feeding it daily.

    I read your article on Sodium Selenite and you seem to be saying that a little ‘poison’ that doesn’t kill you immediately is fine. You, being a dentist, would you say dental amalgams with its mercury content is safe since it leeches out so slowly, it doesn’t kill you right away?

    As another guest mentioned “The msds for sodium selenite gives it a 3 for health, thats pretty bad.. I will look for sodium selenite free foods in the future. I read that sodium selenite accumulates over time in your dog so long term effects can sure be worse than the immediate toxic effects. Yeah I guess in a couple of years sodium selenite will be in the same category as menadione and they that defend it will become less and less. ”

    Kindly re-evaluate this brand as I don’t see how you can in good conscience give it a 5 star rating.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Robert –

    I would suggest rotating through all the protein sources as long as your new pup doesn’t have any issues with certain proteins. The more variety the better. Primal has a feeding calculator on their website (remember this is just a starting point, feed her the amount she needs to maintain optimum body condition – you may have to adjust the recommended amount and feed more or less): http://www.primalpetfoods.com/education/calc

  • Robert Jackson

    I have a 3mo old english bulldog and been thinking of trying primal formula would like to know of some good suggestions on flavors and how much to feed her

  • The thing I dislike about the higher fat foods is that a lot of people like to add things like coconut oil, salmon oil etc. When adding to an already exceedingly high fat food, the fat is skewed even more.

    For extremely active large breed dogs this is okay but my crew would never meet their protein needs on these higher fat foods even WITHOUT adding any extra fats that I like to add. I’m particularly fond of pumpkin seed oil.

    I love the ingredients in Answers and I think the VP of the company Jacqueline Hill is amazingly talented when it comes to nutrition. But the food is just too high in fat to use as a staple diet for my crew.

  • InkedMarie

    ah, I see. The two places that sold Answers around here don’t sell it anymore and I don’t think I’ve ever seen Aunt Jeni’s either

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Darwin’s wouldn’t be my first choice as far as pre-made raw goes.

    What I like about Answer’s and Aunt Jeni’s is that all the nutrients are derived from whole foods and the calorie and fat content is a little higher which works best for my crew. The other thing I really like about all three foods that I mentioned – Answer’s, Aunt Jeni’s, Primal – is that the protein isn’t the only thing that’s different with each variety – fruit and vegetables and in some cases even fat sources and whole foods supplements are switched up between varieties. Most other brands offer different protein sources, but all other ingredients remain the same so in order to practice true rotational feeding you’d have to rotate with another brand.

  • InkedMarie

    not a Darwins fan?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    If I had to go pre-made I’d use Answer’s or Aunt Jeni’s. I also like the non-HPP Primal varieties (the ones without any poultry, the poultry varieties are HPP).

  • mward1993

    So what is the best pre made raw in your opinion?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi mward1993 –

    I’m currently spending about $400 per month to feed 3 large dogs (110 lbs., 70 lbs., and a 60 lb. puppy). I started getting most of my meat in bulk from a wholesale distributor which cut my costs a lot. Here are some examples of what I typically feed my dogs in a day: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/menus/

  • mward1993

    Hey Hound Dog Mom, how expensive is it to make your raw diet? And how do you do it?

  • Only the Venison could be added at 16% DM fat. The Turkey/Sardine is 25% DM fat.

  • Miss_melee

    Would like to point out that the Primal Raw Rabbit, Venison, and Turkey & Sardine formulas are all low fat – less than 17%.  The Low Fat dog food suggestion on this site only calls out the Rabbit.

  • My crew are well acclimated to different amounts of protein and fat that they haven’t had issues with anything I give them.  Just another “pro” for diet rotation.  I even leave the skin on my raw foods when they get it.

  • Jan_Mom2Cavs

    I would try Nutrisca, but I’d have to order it online.  I might, though.  I don’t feed that much to Stella.  She currently weighs 19 lbs. (not overweight at all) and gets 2 Primal nuggets in the morning and 2 in the evening well hydrated.  She has not had any issues with it all so far. 

  • I’m sure it’s on the To-Do list already!  I haven’t tried it yet but know it’s high in fat (79-100% fat-to-protein ratio).  I’m currently using Nutrisca freeze dried occasionally as a treat not as meals which is slightly lower in fat.

  • Jan_Mom2Cavs

    This is for Dr. Mike S…..I noticed there isn’t a rating for Primal Freeze Dried.  I believe it’s fairly new on the market.  I’m assuming it’s similar to the regular Primal Raw food, though.  I’m feeding it rehydrated to my oldest Cavalier and next food buget will be buying it for all the dogs.  I know the regular raw would be better, but the freeze dried is much more doable in this household.  So far, my oldest Cavalier, Stella, is doing wonderful on this food.  I like it much better than THK or Sojo’s types of food.  I’ve also bought Stella and Chewy’s freeze dried, and while Stella does great on it, too, it’s much more expensive than the Primal FD…especially for 4 dogs lol!  So, Primal it’ll be, though occasionally I’ll buy a bag of S&C’s for variety.  I also plan on putting my cat on either Primal or S&C’s freeze dried.  I’ll keep everyone posted on how it goes.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Liz –

    If you can, I would recommend going with a frozen raw food versus the freeze-dried. Frozen raw is less processed and has a much greater moisture content, it would probably be cheaper in the long run as well. I personally prefer Primal to Stella and Chewy’s, although Stella and Chewy’s is not a bad food. If your dog does fine on both there would be no reason you couldn’t rotate between both brands.

    As far as supplements for the home cooked meals, whether or not they’re necessary would depend on how often you are feeding home cooked meals. I think you could safely feed home cooked for one or two days out of the week without needing supplements, if you are feeding it more often than that I would recommend supplements so you don’t risk throwing off the overall nutritional balance.

    If you’re cooking the food, you won’t use any bone. You should aim for 90% muscle meat and 10% organ meat. So for a pound of meat there should be about 14.5 oz. muscle meat and 1.5 oz. organ meat (liver, kidneys, etc.). You will also need to add 800-1,000 mg. calcium for each pound of meat fed. I would also add about 1/2 C. cooked, pureed vegetables for every pound of meat fed. The supplements you will need to add are an Omega 3 (I would go with a reduced vitamin a cod liver oil or tinned sardines, for the vitamin d as well), vitamin e (about 50-100 i.u. per 25 lbs.) and trace nutrient supplements (kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, bee pollen, etc.). Extras like eggs, cottage cheese, and yogurt can be added as well at a rate of about 1/4 C. per 1 lb. meat. You can find some great tips for homemade diets (both cooked and raw) at dogaware.com.

  • Liz

    so Primal freeze dried dog food is better then stella & chewys freeze dried dog food? i want to feed my mini poodle the primal freeze dried dog food, right now i am feeding stella & chewys freeze dried ones, but i find out that my poodle has allergy to one of the ings is beet, beet pulp causing his ear infection, not good for him eating too much of beet pulp or beet, beet pulp cause ear infection especially the poodle ears, anyway find out that my dog has allergy to beet!! so i wanted to try the primal freeze dried lamb, it says that this food digest well and very healthy~ what are the benefits of this food primal? how to transition to this food from stella and chewys freeze dried? both of them are freeze dried~ and also i need help to find vitamines or supplements cause sometimes i feed home cooking meals for my poodle and need to add vitamines or supplements? i tried the salmon oil life line but it did not work out with my poodle, he did not like the smell and taste, maybe i should try the gel capsule fish oil instead salmon oil, can not find salmon oil gel capsule,,is anyone feeding fish oil or salmon oil that my dog will like it,,,

  • SSM

    My pet loved this. She refuses to eat her food with out it. He coat has improved and so has her stool. Would recommend this product to everyone. Slightly expensive, but totally worth it. 

  • Pingback: In love with Primal Pet Foods | lifearollercoaster()

  • Shawna

    Hi Neezerfan ~~ I, like Hound Dog Mom, would prefer to see the SP product not include a few of the ingredeints.

    However, I find their products to have more benefits then drawbacks.  Whole Body Support is a more therapeutic product.  The protomorphogens in it (PMGs) actually help to protect their corresponding glands. 

    That said, I think PetGO is a good product too.  Dr. Becker recommended it (when a therapeutic product was not needed).  I emailed the company to check on completeness and she was not able to guarantee the nutrients within.  As such it could be deficient in some nutrients.  But still an excellent product and one I would use if I didn’t use SP (I use Catalyn instead of Whole Body Support).

    I’m sure there are multi’s that have enzymes and probiotics but I’m drawing a blank on any right now.  Sorry…

  • neezerfan

    Thanks,  I looked at that page, don’t know why I didn’t scroll down to the ingredients. Good point about rotating.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Neezerfan –

    I rotate my supplements every couple months. I’m currently using the Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier in my blend – I’m mixing with Springtime Inc.’s C-Complex and a joint supplement in the proportions I want – and I’ve used it in the past, I’m a fan.

    I’ve never heard of SP before but I’ve located an ingredients list:

    http://www.standardprocess.com/Products/Veterinary-Formulas/Canine-Whole-Body-Support

    It looks like more of a glandular supplement to me. I’m not a big fan of the soy or the oat flour but it doesn’t look too bad, definitely good to use in a rotation. If using as a supplement for a raw diet I’d definitely use in conjunction with some phyto greens like kelp or alfalfa though, I think it’d even be fine to use a small dose of this in conjunction with the NL. If you’re interested ina  good glandular supplement this one is available on Natural K9 Supplies – no soy or oats – http://www.naturalk9supplies.com/Dog-Supplements/pets-friend-pet-go.aspx.

  • InkedMarie

    thanks for responding! I need to get it out of the freezer!

  • neezerfan

    HDM and Shawna,  And anyone else who might know, I’m thinking of getting a whole food supplement and I’m looking at either Standard Process Canine Whole Body Support or Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier Supplement. The only thing making me hesitate choosing the SP is that I can’t find an ingredient list for it. I’d like to have the probiotics and enzymes included if possible.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I don’t think it’s really necessary to gradually introduce it to them, you could feed it for an entire meal or mix it in with the Darwin’s pre-made raw. On their new feeding schedule I recently put them on (I switch it up every few months) my dogs are getting green tripe supermix from my pet carnivore for breakfast every other morning (1 lb. for each). The thing about green tripe is it naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio and good ratios of essential fatty acids so it really can be fed as a balanced meal on it’s own a few times a week. I’ve actually read where it’s safe to feed green tripe for up to 75% of a dog’s diet (I don’t think I’d feed quite that much though).

  • InkedMarie

    Yep, I feed a premade raw (Darwins) but only for one meal a day and my dogs in total weigh 64lbs
      HDM, this brings up a question from me: I got in tripe from Darwins last week, forgot about it til I read your post. Once thawed, do I give them a little here and there since they’ve never had it or do dogs usually do fine with it? It’s a 1 pound package. Split it between the two?

  • neezerfan

    I use commercially prepared raw. I rotate in some canned also. I’m just not comfortable formulating it myself. Even giving it as part of the diet is better than not giving it at all.

  • Commercial raw is quite expensive.  I’ve gone the homemade raw route.  The initial cost – a freezer and a commericial meat grinder $1000.  The benefits – healthy dogs, no vet bills, no allergies, good weights (working on the new bulldog’s weight loss right now), good poops and little gas.  I catch sales at the meat counter and the markdowns when the meats are at their “sell by” dates. $1.49 per pound or less for chicken and will start to buy bulk shortly.  I also still feed kibble and canned foods.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi K~T –

    Premade frozen raw is extremely expensive – especially if you have large dogs or multiple dogs. I could never afford pre-made for my three bloodhounds, it would probably cost me over $1,000 a month. Primal’s complete formulas average about $6.85 per pound and my dogs all eat about two pounds each per day. I’d love to do pre-made for convenience reasons but it’s just not financially practical. I do homemade raw and it’s so much cheaper. I’m feeding all three for around $600 a month now. I order everything in bulk – I get meat from a supplier that supplies local restaurants/grocery stores. The minimum order is 300 lbs. but I pay about half the price of what meat is sold for at the grocery store. I also order tripe, whole prey animals, and some organ meats from hare-today.com and mypetcarnivore.com.

  • K~T

    How expensive are these products? I love the idea of a raw food diet but I dont know if I can afford it! :/

  • InkedMarie

    Yes, I feed Darwins and Brothers! (darn, was hoping it was apple and pumpkin pie! LOL). Richard, you probably still have my email from a couple weeks ago, I’d like to see it too!

  • monkey

    Haha it is a pie chart for Brothers, since i feed that too. In an earlier thread i said looking at the protein/fat/carb numbers alone is stupid without knowing the major sources. So if you feed some Brothers too, see if he will share with you. 🙂

  • InkedMarie

    Pie chart? What is that? (Yeah, I know you’re talking to Monkey but since I feed Darwins as well, I’m nosey)

  • Alexandra

    Agreed, Darwin’s is the best looking of the raw diets. I do feed Primals non HPP meats and they look pretty comparable to Bravo. But Darwins does look much more appitizing.

  • InkedMarie

    I have never seen the Primal, no one has it around here. I have seen NV and Stella & Cheweys and Darwins looks so much better

  • monkey

    I cant get past how fake this food looks. I feel way better feeding Darwins, it looks like real food. Maybe using one of their non HPP foods would be better. I bought the turkey and sardine formula. 

  • InkedMarie

    Nice of you to reply Matt! I read this in the email the other day!

  • Matt

    Bob, the price per pound should be same.  We did not raise prices, rather reduced bag weight by 25% and wholesale price by 25% per pound.  This should translate to a 25% per pound reduction at retail.  If you are having pricing issues at retail, please contact us immediately and we will contact your local retailer.  You can call us toll free 866-566-4652. Thank you!

  • monkey

    In the email from Primal they made it clear that the price per pound is unchanged. So your retailer is marking it way up or Primal lied. 

  • doggonefedup

    Joliege,
    MOISTURE ! The freeze dried has no moisture. The wet raw has to have the moisture removed for classification purposes. So if the wet raw is 75% moisture that only leaves 25% total for everything else. Try comparing them using ratios. 

  • Jolieqe

    Can someone help explain why the raw foods list a lower percentage (12% range) while the freeze dried raw and kibble are usually around 25% range? Thanks!

  • I like the new bag design but whats up with the less food for the same price? Com’on now…

  • melissa

     KOjak-

    I think you need to look at the dry matter basis for the fat content. I can not imagine that any food is just 5% fat, especially for a raw.

  • Kojak713

    Thank you so much for this information!!  I am in the process of switching my dog to a raw food diet, but I need to find low-fat choices due to my dog’s recent bout of pancreatitis.  Another brand had their duck frozen raw food choice w/ just 5% fat; the Primal Formula for Dogs w/ Duck as stated above is 10% – which is too much for my dog!   Thanks again for your great information!

  • jessi L.

    Hi all, which Primal Frozen would you suggest i get first? I want one with a more common protein to fat ration, one that is a favorite flavor to many and not rabbit, b/c i am trying to keep a few meat sources as his novelty sources in case i need one in the future. Thanks. I used to feed Bravo Balance but something is going on with their patties that is not working for me, so i plan to give primal a try.

  • Pugsonraw

    Hi LA,

    I’ve actually used both Darwins raw and Primal for both of my pugs. They are both excellent products that I researched and chose to feed based on the ingredients and mostly fat content. The average fat % on raw food would be about 27% and these range on the lower end at 22% to 25% fat. Darwins has fantastic customer service. They are mail order only and will customize, change or stop your order as needed. Delivery was within 2 days of ordering to CA. Their meat is packed in sealed packets for each 1/2 lb if I remember correctly which made it easy to defrost and serve to small dogs. Meat is very fresh, nice pinky red coloring. The only con for Darwins is you have to order least a minimum of 20 lbs each time, And it is pricey.

    I currently use Primal raw and have found this also to be great quality. I love that they have such a wide variety of meats to chose from and rotate. I can buy Primal at a few pet stores within a 10 mile radius of my home which makes it easy to Find. I mostly use the turkey/sardine, rabbit, venison and quail for my dogs that Have allergies. It is also very convenient to use the 1 oz cubes with my smaller dogs.

    You can’t go wrong with either of these products. Good luck on your decision.

    Dawn aka Pugs

  • LA

    Thanks Monkey – I am on Darwins Website right now checking it out – they are having an introductory offer – very cheap to try their food.  I had a problem with two of my girls do to the bone in the meat. They were very constipated and the vet had to help them.  They were on grind chicken and bone from a butcher that only prepares and sells the meat for pets.   I think the bone was just too much.    Darwin contacted me and said they have beef and bison with bonemeal in it which they recommend.  They also said that using Chicken at everymeal can also cause the problem too. 

  • monkey

    Hi LA,I use Darwins. I use the beef and duck formulas right now. I also plan on using Primal’s Turkey & Sardine. I love how fresh Darwins is and i don’t have to worry about how the distributors and retailers store the food since it is shipped straight to me. (couple retailers in my area don’t carry Primal anymore because the distributor wasn’t always handling it correctly). If i open up a bag of Primal and it is all frosty, it is going back to the store. 

  • Dog Food Ninja

    I use Primal as an occasional topper on my pack’s Earthborn Grain free rotation.  They love it and I have seen no stool issues.  Any raw at this quality level is better than a canned or kibble food.  Except for Bil Jac raw.  What a mess that crap is!  lol

  • hounddogmom12

    I’ve never used Darwin’s, Primal is the only pre-made raw I’ve used (I generally make my own). Darwin looks like a good quality food but I prefer Primal for thre reasons: 1) They use different fruits, vegetables, herbs, and fat sources in each formula – Darwin’s only switches proteins. So if you rotate formulas using Primal your dog will get more variety and 2) Darwin’s is a little cheaper per pound but it has a lot less calories than Primal (I’m guessing Darwin’s has more moisture) meaning you’d have to feed a lot more, and finally 3) Darwin’s uses synthetic vitamins and minerals, the nutrients in Primal are derived from whole food sources. But with that set they’re both great foods and I’m sure your dog would do great on either. 🙂

  • LA

    Hey there Hounddogmom – question have you used Darwin Raw at all – I am trying to make a decision between Darwin & Primal . Do you know any pros and cons of them

  • hounddogmom12

    Yeah, Primal’s been using HPP for well over a year now. I’m not a huge fan, but I use the mixes and only the Chicken and Turkey are HPP; the Sardine, Beef, Lamb, and Buffalo are not.

  • rarnedsoum

    Sadly, after 7 years, we have recently stopped using Primal formula as they have added a pressure processing method that makes their product rubbery, and even the stools from the dog are now dark brown, a color we’ve never had from raw. 🙁
    http://www.primalpetfoods.com/education/foodsafety 

  • rarnedsoum

    yes, we make raw free range chicken necks and we add broccoli, kale, carrots, coconut, blueberries, alfalfa, parsley, and more.
    They love it.
    YMMV.