Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★★★

Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Dog Food receives the Advisor’s top rating of 5 stars.

The Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free product line includes four dry dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Chicken
  • Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Fish (4.5 stars)
  • Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Chicken Small Bites
  • Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Fish Small Bites (4.5 stars)

Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Chicken Recipe was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Chicken Recipe

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 38% | Fat = 20% | Carbs = 34%

Ingredients: Fresh deboned chicken, chicken meal, tapioca flour, fish meal, russet potato, fresh chicken liver, dried egg product, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), fresh whitefish, pea fiber, pumpkin puree, inulin (prebiotic), fresh spinach, fresh blueberries, fresh apples, fresh carrots, fresh sweet potato, ground whole flaxseed, monosodium phosphate, sea salt, choline chloride, taurine, dried kelp, green tea extract (catechin), glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, Yucca schidigera extract, dried alfalfa, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Lactobacillus lactis fermentation product, Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, vitamins and minerals (sodium bentonite, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, vegetable oil, vitamin E, copper proteinate, manganous proteinate, vitamin B12, niacin, sodium selenite, calcium d-pantothenate, folic acid, vitamin A, riboflavin, calcium iodate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin D3 ), natural flavor, rosemary extract

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.9%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis34%18%NA
Dry Matter Basis38%20%34%
Calorie Weighted Basis31%40%28%

The first ingredient in this dog food is chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The second ingredient is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The third ingredient is tapioca flour, a gluten-free, starchy carbohydrate extract made from the root of the cassava plant.

The fourth ingredient includes fish meal, another protein-rich meat concentrate.

Fish meal is typically obtained from the “clean, dried, ground tissue of undecomposed whole fish and fish cuttings” of commercial fish operations.1

Unfortunately, this particular item is anonymous. Because various fish contain different types of fats, we would have preferred to have known the source species.

The fifth ingredient includes potato. Potatoes can be considered a gluten-free source of digestible carbohydrates. Yet with the exception of perhaps their caloric content, potatoes are of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The sixth ingredient includes chicken liver. This is an organ meat sourced from a named animal and thus considered a beneficial component.

The seventh ingredient is dried egg product, a dehydrated form of shell-free eggs. Quality can vary significantly. Lower grade egg product can even come from commercial hatcheries — from eggs that have failed to hatch.

In any case, eggs are easy to digest and have an exceptionally high biological value.

The eighth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The ninth ingredient is whitefish, a marine or freshwater species native to Canada and the California coast.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With six notable exceptions

First, pea fiber is a mixture of both soluble and insoluble dietary fiber derived from pea hulls. Aside from the usual benefits of fiber, this agricultural by-product provides no nutritional value to a dog.

Next, we note the inclusion of inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and typically sourced from chicory root.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

In addition, flaxseed is one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

Next, vegetable oil is a generic oil of unknown origin. The ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats in any oil is nutritionally critical and can vary significantly (depending on the source).

Without knowing more, it’s impossible to judge the quality of an item so vaguely described. However, compared to a named animal fat, a generic vegetable oil cannot be considered a quality ingredient.

This food also includes dried alfalfa. Although alfalfa is high in protein (18%) and fiber, it’s uncommon to see it used in a dog food. This hay-family ingredient is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

And lastly, this food also contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free looks like an above-average dry dog food.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 38%, a fat level of 20% and estimated carbohydrates of about 34%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 34% and a mean fat level of 20%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 38% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 58%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the flaxseed and dried alfalfa, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a significant amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Dog Food is a meat-based kibble using a significant amount of chicken and fish meals as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every report is directly dependent upon the quality of that data.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

09/03/2012 Original review
03/17/2014 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  • Bob K

    Pyridoxine is one form of vitamin B6. Its hydrochloride salt pyridoxine hydrochloride is used as vitamin B6 dietary supplement. Many ingredients and vitamins when taken in excess can be harmful. Hint – Eat a pound of salt or chicken fat. If you are concerned, vote with your wallet and buy something else or prepare your own food for your loved ones.

  • Annasita

    I am a pet owner and I have been highly frustrated with the incredible number of conflicting reviews about the same dry dog food products on the market. I have to think that some of the reviews sites get a cut from the manufacturers (I am not insinuating that this one does, but please understand my frustrations). I just did a random search on one of the ingredients not addressed in this review, Pyridoxine, but present in the Nutro brand under review. Keep in mind I have never used Nutro before, I do not know the brand and I was just browsing through all of the various brands reviewed on this site. Pyridoxine, according to WebMD, “is LIKELY SAFE for most people. In some people,
    pyridoxine might cause nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, loss of appetite,
    headache, tingling, sleepiness, and other side effects.

    Long-term use of high doses is POSSIBLY UNSAFE. It might cause certain brain and nerve problems.” (See ref.)
    Shouldn’t this then, like BHA, be considered a “potentially harmful ingredient”? And why is it not a “red item”?
    BHA is alleged to potentially cause cancer, but it has never been scientifically proven so, wouldn’t the case of Pyridoxine be the same?
    Thanks for any elucidation.
    (Concerned pet owner)

    Ref. http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-934-pyridoxine%20vitamin%20b6.aspx?activeingredientid=934&activeingredientname=pyridoxine%20vitamin%20b6

  • CodeRed

    I have decided to opt for Horizon Legacy Grain Free Dry Dog food which I will switch to in January. It is also rated 5 stars and costs approximately $20 to $25 less for a large bag than this.
    Hope, my dogs like it and their stools will be normal again.

  • Dr J

    Who argues with you that bread and rice is not a grain? I just know that our guys do a lot better on grain free food than on food containing grains. No constant licking, gunky ears, sore noses, high hair loss etc. That is all. If a dog does well on grain containing food that is fine as well. We cook them food and add occasionally rice to it, but usually it is beans and legumes.

  • CodeRed

    for the sake of it, it contains both. We all know corn isn’t a good ingredient in any dog food, but you cannot argue that rice and bread are not grains. Feeding dry rice crispies, example, to a dog isn’t particularly unhealthy, however.

    All this to say that while grain-free may be the best option, at this level, the with grain oven baked, is still rated 4 stars, which is good. I doubt it will affect the overall health or make as much as a minor impact on your dog if you choose to go with grain here. BUT the grain free is priced at nearly $20.00 more here. It is nothing more than a marketing tool to profit off of customers who are convinced that grain free is worth the extra $20/bag, when it is not.

    I also heard that Holistic is BS, as in the food isn’t consisted of ”whole” nutrients, for the mind and body, (that last part I’m guessing). It is named as such to make believe it is composed of all the whole essential ingredients. A gimmick. But that belongs on another thread, I’ve haven’t been there yet with that brand.

  • Dr J

    The whole grain council considers corn as a grain. Never doubted that nuts are not a grain, because they are not.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Sugar is carbohydrate, rice is carbhydrate, rice is a source of sugar.

  • CodeRed

    I will correct myself as well as you, corn and nuts are not in fact grains, they are considered tree or soil ”fruit” or ”legumes,” respectively.

  • CodeRed

    I wasn’t referring to corn, a minimal amount of certain nuts found in the woods, say, they would eat, although it is not their preference or main source of nutrient. I call them omnivores because they are not solely carnivores, even if it’s their main source of food.

    Be careful about those cakes you leave lying around. Sugar is bad. ;)

  • CodeRed

    Had I started this fascinating debate? Sorry I was away.

    I was referring to the only comment here beneath about this food causing soft stools in mine too, and didn’t expect to trigger such a discussion.

    I’ve read what I could see and to be clear, I know I need to switch, and plan on remaining with the grain free variety, which kind is still unclear, since I stocked up on these oven baked bags to end January 2014.

    I’ve been away, so pardon the tardy participation. I do agree that dogs are mostly carnivores, this food here is 57% meat protein, not 100%, and they do require other nutrients/components in their overall diet, which is why I classified them as omnivores (with, naturally, a dominant carnivorous side), which I though was a given, but they are not ALL carnivore.

    I was actually thinking of wild dogs, as opposed to wolves, who similarily eat the same things in nature since they derive from them. Regardless, the main reason I must switch is due to their constant soft stools, which cannot be healthy or 5 stars, especially after a year of feeding them only this. Little healthy treats here and there, from time to time aren’t the culprit. Example, purebites – freeze dried beef liver dog treats, as rewards.

    And lol at the comment $90/bag is extortion at any rate. :) who can spend over $1200/year (average with 1 medium sized dog) on dry dog food alone, and when you have bigger one’s and/or more than 1, it’s crazy! One ”large” bag lasts with mine 2.5 – 3 weeks approximately. They exercise a lot and are not fat, at a healthy weight and eat once a day. And it doesn’t seem that they eat any less of it than with their prior food, even though I read it would be the case.

    The switch must be made, no question, to what remains a mystery for another month at least. If you have any suggestions or tried and true good quality (and normal stool) food I can transition them with my last bag to, do share.

    ETA: Both are 6 yrs. old, one large (lab) and one medium (beagle x)

    The more I read and get suggestions and info. the better when the time comes to make the change. Hopefully, the final one. Although, if you ask 5 doctors 1 question, you may get 5 different recomendations or variations. It also may be another trial and error experience, so no pressure.

  • CodeRed

    true.

  • CodeRed

    I know I need to switch, and plan on remaining with the grain free variety, which kind is still unclear, since I stocked up on these oven baked bags to January.

    I’ve been away, so pardon the tardy participation in this debate. I do agree that dogs are mostly carnivores, this food here is 57% meat protein, not 100%, they do require other nutrients as well, such as vegetable, starchy carbs and other in their overall diet. It is why I classify them as omnivores, even though the carnivorous side reigns.

    I was actually thinking of wild dogs, as opposed to wolves, who similarily eat the same things in nature since they dervie from them. Regardless, the main reason I must switch is due to their constant soft stools, which cannot be healthy or 5 stars, especially after a year of feeding them only this. Little healthy treats here and there, from time to time aren’t the culprit.

    And lol at the comment $90/bag is extortion at any rate. :) who can spend over $1200/year (average with 1 medium sized dog) on dry dog food, and when you have bigger one’s and more than 1, it’s crazy. One bag lasts with mine 2.5 weeks approximately. And to top it off, it doesn’t seem that they eat less of it than with their prior food, even though I read it would be the case.

  • aimee

    You asked if longer exposure to the control diet would result in even higher levels.

    I doubt you’d find elevations of any relevance. All of my dogs are on diets you’d consider “high carb” and have been for years. These are this years triglyceride levels from my dogs: Jack’s triglyceride was 32, Brooke’s was 75 and Chloe’s was 76.

    What are your dogs’ triglyceride levels?

    I referenced what I wrote ( I didn’t quote from any of the papers) so you could read the all the original data.

    Sad that you just disregarded it all without even reading any of it. Why ask me for references if you aren’t even going to read them?? Are you afraid to look lest you find something you don’t want to see or know?? ( P.S. I’ve done several hours of reading from Dr. Perlmutters site)

    I think a primary difference between us is that I don’t hold any convictions so I don’t have any reason to disregard any data. I strive to make reasonable conclusions based on ALL available data.

  • Shawna

    The “modest amount” was after only 12 weeks on the higher carb diet.. Would the modest increase continue rising with continued exposure?

    Since I don’t feel carbs (in the form of grains that haven’t been sprouted etc) are suitable in a humans diet, which I am very open about, I wonder why you would ever think I would find them suitable in a dogs diet? My conviction is so strong, I will never come around to your thinking. Luckily, the medical community is starting to come around to the same conclusions as the medical professionals I follow because the science IS there.

    You are correct in that I don’t consider 8% fat, or 11% for that matter, to be moderate. My mistake…

    As far as not reading the research you cited, you posted the quote so I would assume if you wanted me to read more you would have posted the link. If you are implying I didn’t read the material posted, I did I just disregarded it. The same thing I think you do to material I post. Such as Dr. Perlmutter’s data from “The Grain Brain” (which he backs up with science in a link on his site titled, appropriately enough, “Science”).

  • aimee

    In regards to my dog she munched down on a bag of cat food that was opened approx 2 weeks earlier. (After opening a bag and transferring a portion into a secondary container for of daily use I tightly roll down and seal the bag.) The fat was not rancid and it was sourced from poultry, pork and egg.

    Not my dog but a dog I knew opened the refrigerator and ate a newly purchased pound of bacon… the dog developed pancreatitis.

    So we see correlation, but correlation doesn’t mean causation which is why I wouldn’t say dietary fat causes pancreatitis.

    There is a role that carbs play in pancreatitis cases. It is in the treatment of pancreatitis ( carb being a preferred nutrient to start with when reintroducing food ) and the prevention of future episodes( carb based diets).

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    Details are important..
    From your reply to me I can only assume that you haven’t read the research I cited. That in itself is disappointing. I’m not sure why you ask for research and why I should spend the time looking it up for you if you don’t read it. OK vent over : )

    I have not ever said “dietary fat causes pancreatitis” I think you are quoting what I said from this most recent post “Pancreatitis can be induced by infusing FFA …. as somehow evidence that I said “dietary fat causes pancreatitis”.

    I’m sure you realize that there is a huge difference between those two statements. Infusing FFA into ex vivo pancreas is very very different from “dietary fat”

    I also did not say I was “not aware of any research, in dogs, linking carbs to higher triglycerides.” What I did say was “I’ve never found that high triglycerides levels in dogs has ever been linked to carbohydrate”

    The difference of course when you use the word “higher” that is relative comparison. In this case between a lower and higher carb diet. When I said “high triglycerides” that is a clinical abnormality.

    So what we saw in your cited study is a modest relative change. The highest triglyceride level was about 86 ( pre was around 70).

    Triglyceride level normals will vary from lab to lab but normal is around 30-300. I think I’ve seen it as 400 and above being considered “high”.

    As I’ve said I’ve never found that high triglycerides levels in dogs has ever been linked to carbohydrate..”

    The triglyceride levels in this study in the lower 30% of normal range.

    I was however interested to read that you considered “Fat was moderate in all diets” as the fat levels varied from 8-11%. I’ve always considered that range to be low fat. Just curious ( as you say) if 8% is moderate fat diet what do you consider to be a low fat diet?

    I’ll finish this later …

  • Shawna

    Morning Aimee,

    You wrote “Pancreatitis can be induced by infusing FFA or triglycerides through the pancreas ( Saharia 1977).”

    You also mentioned you were not aware of any research, in dogs, linking carbs to higher triglycerides. There is a weight loss study in The Journal of Nutrition demonstrating the benefits of high protein diets to high carb diets in weight loss. Fat was moderate in all diets so the only difference was the amount of protein and carbs. In both carb diets triglycerides went up while in both protein diets tg went down.

    “Significant reductions in serum TG from baseline to 12 wk were observed in the HP (−16% ± 8.3) and HPCLA (−26.9% ± 10.6) groups as compared to the increases in TG observed in the CON (32.5% ± 7.99) and CLA (25.2% ± 11.5) groups (Fig. 3).

    Several studies showed the potential benefits of a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet on reducing body weight in humans (6,7). These diets are also associated with decreases in serum TG as compared to diets high in carbohydrates. The results of the study reported here suggest that these same benefits can also be obtained in dogs fed high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets. ” http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2087S.full

    You wrote “If you accept that hyperlipididemia is a risk factor for pancreatitis I’m not sure why you are struggling with the concept that dietary fat plays a role in pancreatitis cases.”

    I could say the same thing — If you accept hyperlipidemia as a risk factor, I’m not sure why you are struggling with the concept that dietary carbs plays a role in pancreatitis cases.

    You wrote “Curious though as to why in this instance you want to see research based evidence when usually you discard published research in favor of anecdotal observation.”

    I’m more than willing to accept anecdotal observation — I’ve stated several times that rancid, or species inappropriate, fats are factors in pancreatitis (Fats are likely to become rancid when exposed to light and air. Lots of people, not saying you do, free feed their cats thus increasing the risks of consuming rancid fats). I accept the anecdotal observations of the vets I quoted suggesting carbs play a role as well. :)

  • aimee

    Yes, later in life she did develop mast cell cancer.

  • aimee

    Hi Shawna,

    Just because I didn’t immediately respond back to you doesn’t mean there isn’t information linking dietary fat to pancreatitis. : )

    If you accept that hyperlipididemia is a risk factor for pancreatitis I’m not sure why you are struggling with the concept that dietary fat plays a role in pancreatitis cases.

    Post prandial hyperlipidemia is a normal physiologic event. In dogs with fat metabolism abnormalities as in my prior dog, this is magnified.

    I do need to clarify that I have not said that “dietary fat causes pancreatitis”. the pathogenesis of pancreatitis is multifactorial. I did say dietary fat plays a role in pancreatitis cases.

    The NRC has set the safe upper limit for dietary fat based on Lindsey et al ( 1948). Pancreatitis was induced in 11 out of 14 dogs by feeding a high fat diet (72%ME)

    Goodhead (1971) and Haig (1970) reported dietary fat as a factor in the
    the pathogenesis of pancreatitis as referenced in Simpson (1993). Willard (2012) reported that most cases of pancreatitis are related either to ingestion of fat or lipemia secondary to diabetes.

    Haig (1970), Schaer (1979) reported long term feeding of high fat diets altered membrane stability in aciner cellls making them more susceptible to breakdown and release of the enzymes they contain. This altered membranes strength was/is thought to contribute to a higher risk of pancreatitis.

    CCK released in response to fat ingestion may also play a role as CCK
    analogs are capable of inducing pancreatitis. (Nordback 1991, Morita 1998, Willemer 1992).

    I previously explained how dietary fat can lead to pancreatic inflammation. A high concentration of chylomicrons in the blood contributes to sluggish blood flow through the capillaries of the pancreas. Membrane bound lipase acts on the fat releasing
    fatty acids. Fatty acids are directly toxic to the tissue as are triglycerides. Pancreatitis can be induced by infusing FFA or triglycerides through the pancreas ( Saharia 1977).

    Additionally, the released free fatty acids may bind calcium and result in micro clots The resulting lack of oxygenation and resulting acidic environment along with FFA activates trypsin leading to pancreatitis ( Hall 1998, Stewart 1994).

    I have no doubt that the above mechanisms are what lead to my dog developing necrotizing pancreatitis after ingesting a high fat meal.

    Curious though as to why in this instance you want to see research based evidence when usually you discard published research in favor of anecdotal observation.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Dr J and Sugar,

    Your college degrees do not give you the right to abuse your rights to post in this community.

    Any further comments posted by either of you that are not about the topic of dog food will be immediately deleted. And you will be permanently blocked from posting on this website.

  • Dr J

    I agree

  • Dr J

    Cool, that is a great field. I am not sure how stats is relevant to a field that has so many subjective answers, but heck good on you.

  • Crazy4cats

    You guys are being ridiculous. Please take your “honest” debate elsewhere. It has nothing to do with this thread or even dog food!

  • Sugar

    My last word on this topic: I’m studying Psychology and as you may know we have LOTS of statistics. Now I will move on.

  • Dr J

    Funny you are the one going on and on and on about it. if you are so clever you could very quickly establish who I am by goggling all the topics I have worked on, because I am sure not many scientists have worked on all these fields. However, I am still missing the slightest inkling on what you have been working or what you are even claim to be studying….Sugar come forward I so want to be impressed by your intellectual power…having worked on so many different topics I resent you call me narrow minded..Come on lets tango about science and dog food

  • Sugar

    Dr J and others: I see you keep poking on my degrees and so on but for some reason. I cannot find your posts; some issues with discuss at the moment: I have offered you yesterday to provide my credentials via email if you do the same and you did not respond. Normally scientists have publications, have websites etc. and you have provided so far none.
    I made you the offer yesterday to provide you proof that I’m enrolled at the University, you did not respond, I said, I would do it in exchange when you provide me with your website and publications. You have ignored all of my requests, which has been suspicious to me.
    I have now moved on and would like to move on with this endless debate.
    I don’t care if you are a doctor of not. You have stated something yesterday indicating that you are not a doctor and are not working on a doctor.
    I would like to have honest debates and don’t need to brag about anything. I know who I am and the education I have. If I can’t be honest I should not be on this forum.
    I promise that I’m 100% honest about my credentials as stated but I do regret saying anything. I have many more credentials I did not mention and I will not respond to anyone anymore attacking them because it is all not relevant in this forum.
    I don’t think it is relevant on which degree I’m working on and if I have an MA or MS. I only brought it up in a conversation. Degrees and so on mean only something when you have learned how to approach data and how to do research. It is all about being objective.
    I’m trying to bring a certain objectivity into this forum because I believe people get narrow minded by believing this or that.

    You can read books and learn just as much as when you are working on a degree. I have met lots of intelligent people who clean houses. I don’t listen to someone more or less just because he or she is more or less educated.
    If you keep questioning my degree program etc. I might ignore it in the future.
    I am here to dicuss dog food not doctors, Ph d’s or degrees, etc. it is all not that relevant.

  • Dr J

    Reading post does help, does it not. Stop trying to muddy the waters. What are your qualifications, not that it matters too much about dog food…but stop trying to portray that you are a highly qualified person….NO I am not from Canada….I am Swiss with all of my degrees from the UK and all my faculty positions in the US…you know some of us do travel..

  • Dr J

    Wow, now my studies and PhD become irrelevant because they were years ago, in Canada….which part of being faculty have you missed?

  • Dr J

    Please provide your credentials…I am more than happy to debate you in any medical or scientific arena…30 years of experience versus a stats course at a PhD level will make it an interesting debate…..

  • Dr J

    Betsy,
    I am not a doctor of people, but all my work has been very close to issues of people. I would be more than happy to answer any questions you have. All my family and friends ask me a lot of people issues, because all of my work has been so close to clinical issues. Besides my academic qualifications I am also a qualified outdoor emergency technician, due to me being a ski patroller in my free time. So fire away and I will let you know if I know something about your questions or not….

  • Sugar

    Betsy, I believe that he has said yesterday that he is not a doctor. Am I wrong ? I believe he said something in this regard it is not true that he is working on a doctor.
    It appears to me that he is from Canada and did some specific scientific work.

  • Sugar

    I agree with ‘Dr J’ that we should not get hooked up on technicalities.

  • Sugar

    Hi,
    I’m sorry if I was wrong about you. You did not respond to my question yesterday when I had asked for your website or publications. I did not find that our conversation was very scientific or based on how you approached factual data. Naturally it all raised questions for me.
    PEACE.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi Dr. J,

    I presume you’re a doctor of people, right? Either way, I could have lots of questions for you.

    You probably get that a lot don’t you? : )

  • Sugar

    I had offered on several occasions to provide my credentials. I don’t understand why you think that ‘Dr J’ has identified himself. He has only explained his resume which makes it more believable that he has done work in science.

  • Dr J

    If you work on a PhD you are doing it for the wrong reason…..

  • Dr J

    It is no skin of my teeth do so. She can represent what ever she wants to do so, but I just declared what I have done and where I am coming from. Does this make a an authority on dog food? No, but it makes me somebody who can at least add scientific evidence to certain claims, especially since I worked in intestinal uptake and infections…

  • Shawna

    You apparently also aren’t able to find research directly linking dietary fat to pancreatitis. Pancreatitis is such a common disease you would think there would be tons of data.

    My girlfriends dog had high triglycerides and high liver enzymes which were directly related to the oats in her diet. But the symptoms manifested when she changed the diet to exclude the oats. I’ve mentioned her here before. Her vet is Dr. Jean Dodds. How many vets likely would have seen the symptoms as caused by the new diet? Thankfully Dr. Dodds is better, in my opinion, than many vets.

    I’m still curious how quality dietary fat directly causes inflammation?

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m also sure you noticed she didn’t identify herself in any way while she was asking you to identify yourself.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Is the dog you’re referring to the one who had cancer?

  • Dr J

    Dear Sugar,
    I saw your contribution doubting my scientific credentials. let’s get this straight. I hold a BS in Biochemistry and did my PhD in Physiology (Antibiotic transport across the small intestine). Since then I worked as a postdoc on small intestinal infections and junior faculty on P. aerguginosa infections and intra cellular signaling in cystic fibrosis. From there I had a factulty position working on the effect of Lipopolysaccharide

  • aimee

    In all the research I’ve done I’ve never found that high triglycerides levels in dogs has ever been linked to carbohydrate ingestion but it is linked to fat metabolism, obesity, and hormonal problems.

    My dog had fat metabolism problems and had hyperlipidemia that resolved when placed on a low fat diet. She got into my cat’s high fat food, her serum looked like cream instead of clear fluid due to the hyperlipidemia that was a direct result of the high fat intake. She nearly died of pancreatitis. She never again got into a fatty meal, she ate a high carb diet she never again had hyperlipidemia and never again had pancreatitis.

  • aimee

    As I said the hormone released when fat is ingested will cause pancreatitis when given experimentally. It is unknown if this happens clinically. Dogs differ in their ability to process fats resulting in hyperlipidemia. One proposed mechanism is that hyperlipidemia results in sluggish blood flow in capillaries of the pancreas and microthrombi. Ischemia than leads to pancreatitis. Causes of pancreatitis are definitely multifactorial, fat plays a role.

  • aimee

    Plant bulbs and roots are not fruits they are roots. The point was simply that canids do eat digest and utilize sources of carbohydrate independent of the need of humans “predigesting ” them.

  • aimee

    Have you ever seen the T.V. show brain games. Your brain doesn’t always remember correctly or really “see” what is happening.

    What my husband said is that even after I go though all of this that you wouldn’t accept the results. This is what I wrote: “Hubby says he thinks after I go through all of this and document empty shells of the kernels vs whole kernels that you will find some reason to not accept the data.”

    If he had thought the experiment was flawed than I wouldn’t have done it!

    Which is why I also posted this “So now I’m asking all of you who believe that dogs can not digest
    unprocessed corn, if you find fault with my experiment to speak now or
    forever hold your peace. …let me know if yu think this is
    a valid test and if not how I need to adjust the methodology.”

    and you replied “Yes, aimee I will concede that the test is valid for sweet corn purchased from the store.”

  • Storm’s Mom

    Ok, I stand corrected. My sincere apologies.

  • Jennie

    Storm’s Mom

    You are very rude and very wrong.

    In the USA an M.S. degree refers to a Master of Science degree!!!

  • Shawna

    Yeah, I really did botch that up didn’t I :)… In a previous post I said something like – I bet the carbs eaten were not things like non-sprouted grains etc. Although I was surprised to see 70% fruit, I was not surprised that grains were not a part of the diet. I do think we would all agree that 70% fruit is totally inappropriate for dogs so I’m not sure how the maned wolf’s diet can be compared to a dog’s diet.

    Looks like that is the only region where golden jackals primary diet is (again) fruit though. That’s not the case for most regions though “In East Africa, it consumes invertebrates and fruit, though 60% of its diet consists of rodents, lizards, snakes, birds, hares and Thompson’s gazelles.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal#Diet

  • Betsy Greer

    My integrative vet is a BVSc. If I had been searching for a DVM, it would’ve taken me a lot longer to find her.

  • Dr J

    Storm, where I come from it is called a BSc but in the US it is called a BS, apparently, so a MS should be the equivalent as a MSc. I don’t think we should get hooked up on technicalities.

  • Dr J

    Why delete my comment and leave a response to a comment that now makes no sense at all, because it refers to nothing? Kind of a strange editorial decision. I admit I made ONE flippant comment about doing a doctor, but hat was clearly in jest. The rest was neither rude nor inappropriate. Sorry if you felt differently.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Dr. J,

    You apparently believe that flagging comments is in some way inappropriate behavior. However, flagging comments is the correct way to deal with those you feel are behaving discourteously toward you (or anyone else).

    Your comments were not all about statistics as you claim. Your scientific debate remains but your comments that were in violation of our policy will remain removed.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Yes.. and there is no such degree as an MS, btw.. it’s MA or MSc.

  • Sugar

    Did you have any statistics in your program and do you have an MA or MS? I have an MS, not MA. If you had statistics, I think that you would be as suspicious as me because the statements did not make any sense. Sorry if I’m wrong about everything. I’m still waiting for a response from “Dr. J.” to show me his publications.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Having done 2 undergrad degrees and a graduate degree, and having worked at a university for the last 15 years, I can tell you that universities are the LAST place that would ever demand that you be “100% familiar with the facts and cannot be inaccurate”. That is the antithesis of what a university education is about!!!

  • Sugar

    Please email me and I can prove to you that I’m enrolled in a program at the University. In return, I would like to see proof that you are a scientist. Can you name some of your publications or a website? Scientists do have usually a website and have published their findings. When you do your doctor these studies are normally published. Anything you can show us so we can actually believe you? I’m the first person to say sorry for being wrong about you! At the University, when I submit a paper, I have to be 100% familiar with the facts and cannot be inaccurate. I read a lot of textbooks and have scientists as my teachers. It did not sound to me credible what has been said.

  • Sugar

    “Dr.J”: You have stated that you are a scientist. Do you have a website, conducted any official studies or published any of your findings? In which field to you work in?
    I have not deleted your comments, but you claimed you are a scientist and then strangely when I had asked about credentials you have stopped responding. If you are a scientist I’m sure you have something to show us regarding your credentials and publications on the web!

  • Dr J

    Mike, please let me into the secret why having an argument about statistics is deemed inappropriate. Sugar comes out with the most bizarre comments about doing a PhD and PhD level stats and my comment that she has no understanding of the scientific process, based on my personal experience of having worked for over 30 years in science and holding a faculty position is getting nixed….I am not the one calling people names, and I am certainly not reporting them to you if they do this to me. I thought out of all the folks you would be above the sand pit playing of the likes of sugar.

  • Dr J

    Wow, I see plenty of my comments have been deleted without me having said anything against any of the house rules. Apparently having a scientific debate about statistics etc is now being deemed inappropriate or could it be that Mr or Mrs Sugar just does not like it to being called out on false statements and then presses the report button. So Sugar, grow up for your own sake, please.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Hey Guys,

    The Dog Food Advisor community encourages “courteous critiques, polite debate and calm disagreement”.

    Unfortunately, recent remarks here compel me to remind all involved to adhere to Our Commenting Policy which states:

    “… we delete comments that exceed the boundaries of courteous behavior. This includes remarks that are rude, profane, mean-spirited, disrespectful, lack good manners or otherwise unrelated to the topic at hand.”

    Flagged comments in violation of this rule have been removed. Your respect for the opinions of others would be appreciated. Thank you.

  • InkedMarie

    Have you ever tried any THK for some meals?

  • InkedMarie

    Somebody?

  • Sugar

    So you don’t believe that I’m studying at the University? Because I stated I’m working on a PHD or PH D or phd or whatever I said, not stated ‘I’m working on a doctor’-but, I’m enrolled in a ph d program, what is wrong with that? Are you jealous?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I was a little surprised by that as well when I first read the article. That’s really what made me begin to think fish-based kibbles aren’t worth the risk – sounds like a lose/lose situation. I wish I had know this when I used to feed Gus kibble, I used several fish-based kibbles in my rotation. I’ve gotten very picky about fish oils as well. I used to buy the fish oils made for pets in pump dispensers or tried to get the cheaper fish oils to save money, now I only buy the more expensive brands in capsules. I refrigerate them, use them within two months and make sure the product has high levels of vitamin e.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I always try to use a bag in 1or 2 months – which is do-able with 7-10 mouths to feed!

  • Betsy Greer

    What surprised me about that Steve Brown article that we were reading the other day was this:

    ” Preservatives are used in dry dog foods to slow down the oxidation of the fats. Natural preservatives such as mixed tocopherols are considered to be less harmful for dogs than artificial preservatives, but they do not prevent oxidation (rancidity) for as long as artificial preservatives do.

    If you’re planning on keeping a food toward the latter half of its “best by” date, your dog may be better off with a food that is preserved with a synthetic antioxidant such as ethoxyquin. Personally, I think the dangers of rancid fats are greater than the problems posed by synthetic antioxidants.”

  • Sugar

    I don’t understand why people give this Dr. J. who is neither a scientist nor a doctor any up-votes. He talks about statistical calculations, and claims that science is not flawed. Don’t you get it? Science is all about flaws and every scientist learns about them in their studies, statistics is all about flaws. There is no way that a scientist would talk like that! He talks about statistical analysis and throws in some numbers.
    Don’t be fooled, he is not a scientist, there is no way! If he was a scientist why did he not show to me his publications every scientist has, by now or something? Don’t you get it?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Agreed. It’s unfortunate that a company isn’t required to label preservatives unless they add them themselves (most meat meals come with the preservatives already added). It’s important to ask if the company can guarantee that the meat meals are free of preservatives upon arrival at the manufacturing plant.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I think alot of foods out there have synthetic preservatives in them (and especially the lower priced ones). They don’t have to be listed. One must email every dog food’s company they intent to feed and ask.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, green tea extract and as always, there are pros and cons…that’s why I make dog food too, no preservatives other than freezing it!

    http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_5/features/Dog-Food-Preservatives_16221-1.html

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’m not so certain Hi-Tek’s meat meals don’t contain synthetic preservatives. I remember calling them once and asking them about it and the person I spoke to was pretty evasive with my questions. Was very reluctant to give me a straightforward answer.

  • aimee

    You lost me there. What due you mean by “not carbs but fruit”? Fruits are made up of starches and sugars.. unripe fruits have a higher starch content then a ripened fruit. the “ripening” process the starch is converted to sugars.

    Sugars and starches are both carbohydrates.

    From wikipedia: “Near the Vakhsh River, the jackal’s spring diet consists almost exclusively of plant bulbs and the roots of wild sugar cane, while in winter it feeds on the fruit stones of wild stony olives”

  • Betsy Greer

    What kinds of preservatives do you look for Sandy?

  • Sugar

    Dr. J.: Why have you stopped responding the moment I had asked for your credentials or website? It makes it very suspicious.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I think with foods with preservatives (not just the preservative in the fat) will keep their quality better and of course keeping the bag rolled down so less oxygen gets to it. I worry with foods that don’t have additional preservative in them like Hi-Tek naturals grain free. No other preservative in the bag except for the fat source. Purina One Beyond was recalled for mold not too long ago – no preservative other than in the fat. So I would still buy fish kibble, just small to medium size and definitely be vigilant with the storage. I might even keep it in the frig. I haven’t done that yet and the fish kibble I have smells great still.

  • Shawna

    Just googled maned wolf diet. Two different sources say 30% animal based diet and 70% FRUIT (not carbs but fruit). I’ve read that fruit, due to the enzymes within, is highly digestible if one can break through the cellulose. Guessing maned wolves chew to some degree.

    “Carvalho (1988) recommended that a suitable daily diet for maned wolves
    in captivity might consist of the following (depending on availability):
    900 g seasonally available fruits (e.g. avocado, pineapple, peeled orange,
    caqui, banana, cerrado fruits), and 400 g animal matter (e.g. egg, 1/2
    chicken, chicken’s head and neck, cow’s stomach and cartilage, 1 or 2
    chicks).” http://www.canids.org/publicat/cndnews2/manedwlf.htm

  • Sugar

    Please show us your publications and website-you claim you are a scientist. You claim that science is not inaccurate or doesn’t have flaws. No scientist would say that, sorry if I’m wrong and you are a scientist.

  • Sugar

    Please show us your credentials. Where is your website, where are your publications? You have stated that you are a scientist. As a scientist you should know that not all dogs can handle high amounts of fats and you would be more accurate in your statements.

  • Sugar

    Dr. J I doubt that you are a real scientist, sorry if I’m wrong. Please show us your website or publications. Body of evidence is forensics.

  • Sugar

    I never said that dogs are omnivores. I’m starting to doubt that you are a scientists, as in science you have to be very accurate and you keep putting words in my mouth among other things. Please show us your website or publications.

  • Shawna

    No actually, I told you I wouldn’t — if you remember your husband said we (collectively) wouldn’t accept your experiment and I agreed with him.

    In all honesty, I am blissfully unaware of what the diet of jackals, coyotes etc truly is. BUT, my guess is that it is NOT potatoes, non-sprouted grains, pasta and such. And, as you know, I’m all for veggies and small amounts of fruit in the diet at appropriate levels of 20 to 25% or less.

  • Sugar

    Thanks for letting us all know what ‘science is’ or isn’t. What kind of ‘scientist’ are you? Usually real scientists have accomplished studies, made all kinds of publications and have a website. Dr. J. do you have any of it to show us here?

  • Sugar

    Thanks for letting me know what I’m studying. I cannot find your other posts since Discuss is having an issue and I won’t respond to all of them. One thing I would like to mention though: It is simply inaccurate to say that farmed salmon has the same mercury levels like wild salmon. I am really curious as to where you get your information or data from.

  • Dr J

    Since when does one study prove anything. It is a body of evidence that suggests something. Your contribution just proves that you have no idea what science is about.

  • Storm’s Mom

    What is wrong is that it’s wrong, and it’s an error that someone working on that degree would NEVER make.

  • Sugar

    And what about the study that just came out disproving the previous studies that claim that saturated fats cause or contribute to heart disease? One study comes out ‘proving’ something and then another study disproves it. The so called science is not hat scientific. Of course a lot of scientists claim that their study is superior to the others etc. but in reality to do justice and really find the truth you goanna have to be open minded. What I learned in my studies is to be a critical observer. I have had statistics in my bachelor, masters and ph d program. I know enough to know that I cannot know anything for sure.

  • Dr J

    I am sure you are working ON a doctor but not the way a PhD student does ;-)

  • Dr J

    Can digest carbs better than assumed, means nothing. Just because they can digest carbs a little better does not make them omnivores. Please list all the enzymes dogs have to breakdown cellulose, complex carbohydrates etc. Then please enlighten me as to the status of how the broken down carbohydrates are transported across the intestinal into the blood stream.

  • Sugar

    What is wrong with saying ‘I’m working on a PH D’? Do you spell check everything? This is not class just a forum.

  • Dr J

    Dogs need fat……dear oh dear…..

  • Dr J

    Really there all kinds of theories. In science a theory is lead by a hypothesis and if you do it properly you set out to disapprove your own hypothesis not prove it, hence the 95% confidence limit or alternatively a p-value of less than 0.05. Science is neither flawed nor inaccurate. Science is step by step approach of learning to understand of what is actually going on. I am a scientist and question science on a daily basis, it is simply part of the job. If you do not question it you might as well open your own church, because you believe rather than research. And trust me statistics at a PhD level is rudimentary, unless you actually study statistics.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Yes, it is.

  • Sugar

    I said ‘in general’ AND you have to compare fish to fish; of course it is logical not to compare Shark with Catfish. You are comparing the same fish; for instance Herring wild is lower in mercury than Herring farmed. Catfish can be farmed or wild in lakes and both are low in mercury. Salmon farmed is high in mercury but wild is generally low. I can give you some data if you still want this debate to be going on. I would never buy fish from China be it wild or farmed.

  • Betsy Greer

    Forgive me if this is redundant, my first response seemed to have gone poof!

    This is something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit as well. Since Sam cannot do potatoes or legumes, I’ve been looking at foods with alternative binders, such as Nature’s Logic with millet or Brothers with high quality tapioca. I’ve even been looking at Solid Gold because they use some interesting pseudo grains for binders such as quinoa, amaranth and buckwheat.

    I know I’ll end up with a problem if I end up with a rotation of nothing but peas!

  • Storm’s Mom

    I’ve worked in universities for 15 years, and have an MA. I’ve never heard anyone say “I’m working on a doctor”. It’s “I’m working on my doctorate” or “I’m working on my Ph.D” (or Ed.D) etc. If you are going to make a more general statement, it would be “I am working on a doctoral degree” or “I am working on a doctorate”, not “I am working on a doctor”. Someone who is actually working on such a degree is extremely unlikely to make the error you just did.

  • Sugar

    What is your level of education? You don’t like people who work on their PHDs?

  • Betsy Greer

    Good point, since you’re closer to the source, you’re probably able to buy it much sooner than I would be.

  • Betsy Greer

    I think it’s somebodysme.

  • Shawna

    Nor have I seen “dietary fat” in the research.

    Why do you suppose fat would cause inflammation of the pancreas? Inappropriate amounts of AA fatty acid is inflammatory but that is very very specific and really has little to do with total fat intake.

    IF fat caused pancreatitis, shouldn’t we see an increased risk factor for working sled dogs etc? I still think it is like protein and the kidneys — only an issue after the disease has set in.

  • Pattyvaughn

    The university class in statistics at PhD level is only one more piece of proof.

  • Shawna

    Beaglemom is my second guess at having the pea issue :).. I’ll be bummed if I strike out two for two… :)

  • Storm’s Mom

    Nope …*knocks on wood*.. no problem with peas here. I know who you are talking about because I remember he/she always put “PEAS” in their posts, but I don’t recall who it is.

  • aimee

    Hi Sugar,

    As one whose dog almost died from pancreatitis, I agree it is about the fat. Likely most dogs can handle high fat diets just fine but for those dogs that have altered metabolism and are fat intolerant fat can be deadly.

    I’m sure that the percentage of veterinarians who think carbohydrate plays a role in the cause of pancreatitis is a very very tiny percentage of the total number of veterinarians.

    I have never seen carbs as a contributor to pancreatitis reported in any peer reviewed credible literature nor have see any research that supports that idea that.

    .

  • Storm’s Mom

    Yeah, I’m aware of the fish-based kibbles issues… I just don’t know if I can take away my chicken-allergic guy’s beloved fish kibbles, too!! :-O With both Legacy Fish and Nutrience GF Fish, I bought the bags the 1st week they appeared in stores, so justified it to myself that they were “as fresh as they could possibly be” (even though I know….) …and thus I haven’t really had to contemplate this yet, but… ugh.

  • Shawna

    Agreed!! Your dog has issues with peas correct? Took you FOREVER to figure it out if I remember correctly?

  • InkedMarie

    Not just you

  • InkedMarie

    I mentioned something similar to richard last week

  • Betsy Greer

    I love Legacy Adult too. Sam does so “fantastically” well on it. I thought I’d try the Legacy Fish, but haven’t yet. I had been trying various fish kibbles (Canine Caviar, Nature’s Logic, Wellness Core, Orijen Six Fish and heck, even EVO and Mulligan Stew) but, I think I’m going to steer clear of fish based kibbles from now on after I use up, as quickly as possible, the stash I have on hand, thanks to this article that HDM mentioned yesterday: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_12/features/Fats-Chance_20658-1.html

  • Dr J

    Not true, the levels of mercury in wild and farmed salmon are the same.

  • Dr J

    That all depends on where the fish is farmed and how old and large they are. there are several science articles which contradict your point. As I said it depends on where and type of fish.

  • Shawna

    I had that happen too.. Posts by someone else showing up as if aimee had left them.. Ended up happening when there was a comment left on the page I was already on and I linked to that comment WITHIN the page. If you click on another page and then go back to the original page it shows the correct poster.. I thought I was losing my mind and took pictures of the comments with my phone so I could prove what I was seeing!!! Hee hee hee (I posted copies of the pictures even) :)

    Disqus apparently likes to pick on aimee..??

  • Karen

    Weird, I am not Aimee for sure! lol (Technology- can’t live with it, can’t live without it!) I will get some Nature’s Logic and see how they do. I have been looking at certain Wellness and Acana formulas also (although I think the Acana had peas). I would like to try to get some samples and see which they prefer, they’ve been so picky lately. I put the food down and they eat a few kibbles and walk off. I miss the days when they used to chow down!

  • Sugar

    OK< I see. But you are right, most of the grain free are higher in fat, but there are a couple of foods out there which are high protein/low fat, which is great.

  • Shawna

    “As a holistic
    veterinarian, I don’t think it’s a fluke or happenstance that the
    pancreas has become more and more attacked as an organ. We know that the
    high carbohydrate-based diets that most dogs and cats eat are extremely
    taxing to pets’ insulin levels, which are, in turn, taxing to the
    pancreas.” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2009/12/16/dont-let-this-organ-ruin-your-pets-life.aspx

    Veterinary nutritionist Meg Smart has an article by vet Dr. Michael Fox on her website….In this article Dr. Fox discusses “Manufactured Pet Foods” in general. http://petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2012/08/michael-fox-comments-on-pet-foods.html Assuming Dr. Smart agrees, at least to some extent.

    Dr. Becker also quotes Dr. Fox in one of her articles http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/07/09/dr-becker-and-fox-on-pets-obesity.aspx

  • Hound Dog Mom

    All the foods I mentioned were grain-free.

  • Sugar

    HoundDog I can not find your post- some issues with Discuss. But I do agree, that there are some foods with high protein/low fats. Those you have mentioned are great too. Some of them have grains though. I’m lucky that my Schnauzer LOVES fish. Fish is high on Omega 3 and low on fat. Believe me, my dogs as an average get over 30% protein in their diet. I just purchased wild Haki Fish from Africa and Wild Alaskan Salmon for him on sale.
    What I was ref. to was that a lot of times people think high protein is healthier but then often it comes with high fat too. It depends on the dog if he can handle it.

  • InkedMarie

    She was responding to HDM, not you.

  • Shawna

    Sorry aimee but that doesn’t cut it for me.. I do agree that research states “hyperlipidemia” can induce pancreatitis but…..

    “Hyperlipidemia refers to increased levels of lipids (fats) in the blood, including cholesterol and triglycerides.”

    In humans they have known for a very long time that high triglyceride can be caused by carbs and sugar. I have no reason to believe the same is not true for dogs.

    Cholesterol can be increased due to toxins.

  • Sugar

    Shawna, I know you seem to hate me for whatever reason, I don’t understand, but pancreatitis is all about fats.
    I would like to know where you got this information from as you have stated above that ‘many vets agree that high carbs contribute to pancreatitis’.

  • Sugar

    I agree that Pancreatitis is all about fats. I saw the difference in my Schnauzer Dog when I started a low fat diet for him. Carbs won’t bother him.
    I don’t understand where Shawna has this from, the idea that ‘many vets agree that high carbs contribute to pancreatitis’, this doesn’t make sense to me.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Unfortunately because you’re not a registered user, we can’t see your posting history to go back and find something you posted previously. You really ought to consider registering so that at a later date we can more easily find the valuable stuff that you post.

  • aimee

    “complications of canine hyperlipidemia include pancreatitis”

    “Lipid metabolism and hyperlipidemia in dogs.” (Xenoulis 2010)

  • Shawna

    The ability to “digest without problem” does not necessarily equate to appropriateness.

  • Shawna

    I don’t…. I have a hard enough time organizing my own research :).. Hee hee That’s okay though….I’ll just assume that it’s on rats or hamsters or doesn’t show a clear causation… Best that we don’t get in the “sciency” discussions anyway :)…

  • Hound Dog Mom

    You say “high protein comes with high fat, you will have to automatically reduce the protein in order to get the low fat content.

    This is not true.

    Examples:

    The Honest Kitchen Zeal 36% protein/9% fat.

    Wellness CORE Reduced Fat 33% protein/10% fat

    Annamaet Lean 30% protein/7% fat.

    Just to name a few. None of these foods have any added plant protein concentrates.

    It’s also very easy to formulate low fat/high protein homemade diets (cooked or raw) using lean meats – such as poultry breast, poultry gizzards, heart, extra lean ground meats, various organs (most 95% lean or greater), etc. Many commercial raw diets that are low in fat are available.

  • Shawna

    Sugar — I truly am not trying to “turn the conversation negative”. But based on previous conversations with you, I have decided that I want to bow out now. Please continue giving your point of view. If I agree, as always, I will up vote you (which I have done a couple times today and several times yesterday). If I strongly disagree I will continue to down vote (be it you or someone else–I have only down voted one of your comments). I just know from the past that it is likely we will not agree at any point so to continue this conversation seems kinda pointless.. No reflection on you (OR me) just that it is time for me to move on..

  • aimee

    I’ve posted it all for you before so you should have it.

  • Sugar

    Yes, me neither.

  • Sugar

    I don’t understand why you have to all the sudden turn the conversation into something negative.

  • Shawna

    Research please :)

  • aimee

    In part consumer demand/marketing forces and when processed cats digest carb without problem.

  • Shawna

    LOL!!! :) I totally agree!!

  • aimee

    Fat causes CCK release. Injecting CCK analoges has been shown to cause pancreatitis. Lipemia is also a proposed mechanism.

    On a practical level my dog ate a high fat meal of cat food and nearly died from pancreatitis.

    It happens!

  • Sugar

    Shawna, you are very mean. And you think you know it all. What do you know? What can you know for sure? not as much as you think.

  • Shawna

    I’ll quote you from yesterday but this will be my last post in this conversation — “Look, I’m not stupid.”

  • Storm’s Mom

    Did not know that, but glad it’s “not just me” :-)

  • Sugar

    Excuse me?

  • Shawna

    You and I are not the only ones Storm’s Mom… An email went around yesterday about it…. :)

  • aimee

    When I proposed the ‘experiment you said you would accept the results. Now that it came out other than what your pre conceived belief was you doubt the results.

    Did you collect your stool and do a full analysis as I did with my dog?

    How do you explain the diet of jackals, coyotes, maned wolves that all rely on significant amount of plant based material to sustain them?

  • Shawna

    True, I haven’t found any research linking carbs to pancreatitis. That’s why I said “some vets” believe carbs to be a cause.

    Can you link to research that states “dietary fat causes pancreatitis” please. I haven’t found anything on that either but maybe it is simply that I hadn’t found something that is there.

  • Storm’s Mom

    It seems that you and are on the same page about “the other names”..

  • Shawna

    Yes, I remember aimee… I’ve always found it interesting how your dog was able to digest corn quite well when I am not.. Maybe it’s just me though. :)

    Do you have research demonstrating the ability of dogs to digest intact cellulose. I would very much like to read that…

  • Sugar

    Probably it is better to chose a food which is not potato heavy, like not number 3 but number 10 on the list instead.

  • Karen

    Thanks, that was the conversation I saw that kind of scared me off. Maybe I will give them a try and see how the girl’s like it. I liked everything I saw about them, that’s for sure and it is easy for me to get here.

  • Sugar

    Perhaps the Horizon Legacy might be better. All I know is that Horizon is a very good company. I consider the food safe and great. Some of the brands I use the poops are a bit more but this is just the fiber, it is not bad for the dog. High fiber can prevent anal gland issues. In fact, my dogs never have blocked anal glands either.

  • Storm’s Mom

    hunh? This post sounds so un-Aimee-like that I’ve flagged it.

  • Karen

    Thanks for all the help, this is so great! Trying to find the right food has been so hard lately. I was feeding Fromm when my issues started. I had been feeding them the Chicken a la Veg since I rescued them. (I did not know about rotation feeding then.) They LOVED it, until one day the just quit eating it and started having bloody diarrhea. I was shocked, because Fromm is so reputable. My vet told me it was an allergy. (No worms. Blood tests normal.) Then I tried Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast and they had horrid diarrhea, but it wasn’t bloody. I tried it for a few weeks, but it didn’t improve. So my vet put them back on the stupid Hill’s. Then I tried Nature’s Variety Instinct Lamb and Duck and LID Turkey. I must have got a bad batch because 3 weeks ago I spent $1,000 at the vet when they both became extremely ill with watery vomiting and diarrhea (once again, no worms, blood tests normal.). Once I pulled the NV they improved. I’d like to find something that would be gentle on them to easily transition to. Especially my one, she has always had such weird tummy issues. :-(

  • Shawna

    Interesting that you are pointing to science as a reason for feeding diets higher in carbs as opposed to nature then??

    The foods tested and confirmed to be adequately digested were “predigested”. Dogs do not make cellulase – something that everyone agrees on.

    With this however, I am going to bow out of this conversation. I am finding that this discussion is no different than the discussions with you when you posted under the other names..

    Good luck :)

  • Sugar

    I saw health issues in my Schnauzer when feeding a high fat diet. So I had to reduce the fat, he is fine with the carbs, as the link with carbs is indirect when it comes to pancreatitis. My dogs get perhaps 2 times a week a little bit of grain, but otherwise their food is grain free. It all depends on the quantity you use and how you combine the foods.

  • aimee

    Maned wolves also don’t have cellulose yet eat a high carb diet. In fact i read in husbandry manuals that they don’t do well unless carb is fed as part of their diet.

    If you remember my corn experiment my dog digested it quite well!

  • Sugar

    I’m not certain omega 3 are always rancid in all kibble, unless I see proof I do believe it depends on how the food is made.
    I think you give your dogs decent brands, but obviously they are not perfect. I am looking in a food more about the quality of ingredients vs. amount of meat protein.

  • aimee

    Pancreatitis can be induced by giving the hormone that is released when fat is ingested. The quality of the fat has nothing to do with that.

    There is no evidence carbohydrate causes or contributes to pancreatitis.

  • Sugar

    Farmed fish from Canada is higher in mercury than wild fish.

  • Storm’s Mom

    ..and, of course, sadly it seems like peas are becoming the new chicken in that so many foods are including peas these days, which will almost inevitably lead to more dogs becoming intolerant to peas :-(

  • Shawna

    Hills as an example “Chicken, Whole Grain Wheat, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat, Powdered Cellulose, Pea Bran Meal, Dried Egg Product, Wheat Gluten…” 34.6 percent protein..?

  • Sugar

    That is not what the latest science it pointing to. If this would be true then my dogs must have digestive issues and their digestion is perfect. I don’t know a dog that looks so great and has prefect digestion like my dogs.
    In science there are all kinds of theories. And in the end these are just theories. I had at the University Master Level Statistics. And most of it what we have learned is about the flaws and inaccuracies in Science. Most people believe Science and won’t question it.

  • Shawna

    Why then do the major players use a significant amount of plant based foods in their cat foods?

  • aimee

    The dentition of the dog is classified as mixed suited for both animal and plant based foods as opposed to that of cat.

  • Shawna

    Umm, what they have proven is that dogs can digest carbs that have been “predigested” for them. Dogs, like humans and cows, do not poses the digestive enzyme, cellulase, that digests cellulose. SO if humans do not intervene by predigesting (cooking, food processing, fermenting etc) the grain/veggie first — dogs can not utilize it.. Humans can’t either — one reason we are told to “thoroughly chew” our food. Something most dogs don’t do.

  • Sugar

    Not true. Generally, Farmed ocean fish is much higher in mercury as they farm them on the shorelines and there are more pollutants. The only time where you have low mercury in farmed fish, is mostly if you have a lakefish, such as Catfish USA sourced. They are considered safe, but this is not in question here.
    Not all wild fish is of course mercury safe.Chunck light tuna and Skipjack tuna are safer, but Albacore isn’t. Shark and Bluefish are not safe, but Arctic code, Flounder, Mullet, Perch, etc. are.

  • Shawna

    ANY food can cause digestive upset if the dog eating is intolerant of an ingredient in that food. My Pom (who is raw fed) would have an issue with many of the Fromm foods due to an intolerance to chicken meat. Her reaction (a form of IBD called colitis) has NOTHING to do with ease of digestion and everything to do with her intolerance to chicken lectins.

  • Storm’s Mom

    I was asking Hound Dog Mom about NutriSource being “shady”, not you. I did not say you said it was shady.

  • Sugar

    You compared dogs to wolfs as if they are 100% wolfs, but they are not…

  • Sugar

    Oh no, you are not starting this debate again: “Are dogs omnivores or carnivores?”. All I can say, even if you are right, latest science does show that dogs have adapted to a more a wider range of diet and can digest carbs better than previously assumed.

  • Dr J

    I personally do not by much farmed fish. US or Canada sourced trout and catfish are pretty much the only ones. One thing is for sure one needs to stay miles away from fish farmed in Asia, especially China. The conditions are simply terrifying.

  • Shawna

    Agreed…. Not to say there isn’t significant issues with farmed fish though..

  • Dr J

    Just a simple question. How well do you think probiotics do when heated, such as during the production of kibble?

  • Shawna

    When it comes to food intolerances to lectins the amount of the intolerant food plays a role but only in how long it will take for symptoms to appear. Symptoms WILL still appear if that food is fed too often even with only small amounts.

    MANY vets feel that high carbohydrate foods contribute to pancreatitis as well. Not only that but they have yet to show any causation between quality fats and pancreatitis. It’s just like protein and kidney disease — non-rancid fat doesn’t “cause” pancreatitis but it does contribute to the symptoms once the pancreas is diseased.

    They also know that certain lectins contribute to type 1 diabetes in humans (the same type of diabetes that dogs get) and contribute to exocrine pancreatic insufficiency.

    Not to mention, there are meats that are very low in fat. Most kibbles can’t meet the dietary need for fat by just adding meat as evidenced by the inclusion of added fat.

  • Dr J

    Really, farmed fish which are fed a controlled diet in a Canadian fish farm are higher in mercury than wild fish…..hummmm not sure if you are not mixing things up. I always though that older wild large fish are the ones with the highest mercury content, hence the advice not to eat too much tuna…….

  • Storm’s Mom

    “formulate the food with probiotics a certain way that makes it easy to digest” – please explain?

  • Shawna

    Three of my dogs get kibble w/ toppers. The other five get raw w/ extras including kibble to keep them occupied while the slower ones finish eating (I toss it on the floor).

    I use Orijen, Earthborn Primitive Naturals, Nature’s Variety Instinct, Nature’s Logic, Merrick, Acana and others. Some I use more often than others. Most every kibble is going to have one form of lectin or another. The deal with lectins is to not feed the same kind too often. A healthy body can keep up with the damage done by lectins unless those lectins are fed too frequently (and the dog/person is intolerant of that lectin). My Pom is intolerant of the lectins in chicken but can eat chicken without symptoms for about three days.

    I buy only small bags and rotate in a new brand/protein with each bag. I don’t buy a lot of fish based kibbles due to the instability of omega 3 fatty acids. Doesn’t matter where the fish is sourced from if the fat has gone rancid before it is eaten….. :(

  • Sugar

    Karen, Fromm, to the best of my knowledge, never changed any of their formulas. They added new products to their lines.
    Which Fromm have you tried? I’m not sure that peas are the issue. They have many different lines and some are better than others digestion wise, depending on the protein and formula they use. Generally Fromm should not cause any digestive upset, but some formulas are easier to digest than others.

  • Sugar

    That surprises me, all the dogs I knew did very well digestion wise on it. Even if there are legumes in it, they formulate the food with probiotics a certain way that makes it easy to digest, at least that is what I thought.

  • Dr J

    Really they are not 100% wolves, who would have thought that. ;-). Well all you need to do is look at their skull and teeth, that should tell you what they are….carnivores.

  • Dr J

    At nearly 90 bucks a bag they extort money period…..

  • Sugar

    I would not feed Timberwolf, unfort. they do have a quality issue.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Ditto, I wasn’t too impressed with how Storm did on Pulsar Fish, either. His poops were massive.

  • Sugar

    Dogs are not 100% wolfs. Latest science suggests, that dogs have actually adopted genetically to a wide range of diet, being around humans for so long. My dogs love meat, I could not imagine feeding them a vegetarian diet. However, I’m not against it.

  • Sugar

    Shawna, another question: What kind of kibbles do you feed to your dog? Are you feeding Orijen? I believe I read once your post where you have stated you use this food. Orijen uses some FARMED fish. This is high in mercury. Don’t they use lentils in one of the formulas now? Don’t lentils have lectins?
    My dogs have had MAJOR digestive issues on Orijen too! So do many other people report the same.

  • Shawna

    Grains have a protein in them called a lectin. Lectins bypass digestion and can cause maldigestion via villous atrophy (they kill the hairs in the small intestine that absorb nutrients). They are also absorbed into the bloodstream and can cause major disease (including autoimmune diseases). However, grains are not the only foods that contain lectins — chicken, eggs, legumes, potatoes, green beans, milk etc can be problematic too.

    Grains also have “anti-nutrients” like phytic acid that bind with minerals in the body. A diet heavy in grains could cause certain mineral deficiencies which can then lead to other diseases — a magnesium deficiency, as an example, can cause seizures.

    You are correct that Hills doesn’t “extort more money for grain free or with grain” rather they extort money for other reasons in my opinion — such as quality of protein used (which can have a profound affect on health).

  • Betsy Greer

    My dogs do not do well on Horizon Pulsar because of the of the legumes. I have several small bags of it on hand and use it as training treats, but even after that small quantity, they’re both gassy.

    Why do you believe that Pulsar is so easy to digest?

  • Sugar

    Shawna, you stated that you know of many dogs with digestive issues with peas. I don’t feed my dogs just peas. Can you tell me of a case that a dog had digestive issues on the Fromm that contains some peas? I have never heard of it, but would be curious. Fromm formulates their formulas a certain way so that dogs can digest their food fairly easily.
    Did you ever had an older Schnauzer in your care for a long time? If you feed it a high protein/high fat diet there will be the risk of pancreatitis. I stick with what works for my dogs.

  • Dr J

    I am not sure how you can even compare Hill’s Science Diet at nearly 90 bucks a bag to Orijen, which has 40% protein and is grain free at 70 bucks a bag. I know which one I would, or better in fact, choose.

  • Dr J

    While dogs may survive on veggie based matter I am not sure one would look upon them as omnivores and I still have to see a wolf chomping down on a cob of corn. My four guys clearly prefer meat although they eat grass and leaves as well, and will swipe a piece of cake if it is left unattended at the appropriate height, My experience with a high grade grain free chow is that they eat less.

  • Shawna

    The fact that they use pea protein tells me that they are not, in fact, always trying to do the right thing… Sure, that shouldn’t significantly deter from the good they do but it IS a negative no matter how you look at it.

  • Shawna

    I know of several dogs that have MAJOR digestive issues with peas. And when it comes right down to it, pea protein is inferior to meat protein plain and simple. It doesn’t mean the food is bad of course, but call it what it is…..a way for the company to up the protein content without the expense of meat protein.

    I’ve had over 30 dogs in my home over the last 5ish years and have yet to have one that didn’t do well on HIGH protein diets. Some couldn’t tolerate certain ingredients but ALL did well on high protein. For what it’s worth, many of those dogs were retired or ill puppy mill breed dogs.

  • Sugar

    Shawna, I have answered the question below. Most of my dogs don’t do so well on a very high (like 40% protein) diet and I have explained a bit why. They do fine on the Fromm with the peas and seem to be able to digest it fine. In fact, when I put my neighbors’ dog on that food, the digestion was so much better too than before and now he is on TOTW and he doesn’t look so well and has issues pooping. So in spite of the peas dogs do very well on Fromm! I have not seen one argument as to why peas are harmful. All I can see is theories, but in real life Fromm is the best food I have ever used.

  • Sugar

    I’m not these people, but Horizon Pulsar is very great for the digestive tract and easy to digest for dogs. I would also add some yoghurt or probiotics powder AS WELL as digestive enzymes, for instance those from Mercola Hope this helps.

  • Sugar

    what exactly did you ask? See, that is the kind of stuff I mean with these companies. I want a company that is 100% transparent. There is no reason not to disclose anything unless you have something to hide.

  • Sugar

    Ah you are the one who said that NutriSource is shady. I just trust my intuition, and I never touched the food, perhaps I felt something in that regards, but cannot put my finger on it. I don’t know enough about it, but as said earlier, I heard that they use low quality, but don’t know much about it.
    The other question is source of ingredients; there are companies they say things ‘all vitamins are from USA’, while some of the USA-Vitamins, such as Ascorbic Acid, Taurine and B-Vitamins originated in China. Fromm Vitamins are from Europe. They are really trying to always do the right thing, don’t use Canola or Sunflower oil, use only Fish they test for Mercury and is safe etc. etc. Why I stick with them is because a lot of companies are dishonest and they are the ones which use high quality and do great costumer service. Their ash content is 6.5% which says something about their quality of meats they use. They do have their own human grade factory and use human grade ingredients.
    They do lots of quality control and cook their food with low temperature. They do things correctly, yet I understand the pea protein argument, however, it is not harmful. It is probably not the very best most expensive protein, but it is not harmful.
    I did not say that heavy meat protein is harmful for a healthy dog, it can be harmful for a dog with certain health concerns, I said. I give you an example: I have 4 dogs, one is a Schnauzer. Heavy meat protein comes with high fat. Schnauzers, the breed, can have issues metabolizing the fats; at least when they get older, they need a low fat diet. Since high protein comes with high fat, you will have to automatically reduce the protein in order to get the low fat content.

    In addition; I have some older dogs who don’t do well on too much protein. It is probably a digestion issue. I have to use high quality, lighter protein, but if I feed them kibble with 40% protein they don’t seem to do very well, their eyes get all watery and they get digestive upset. I do believe that even pea protein has its place but cannot put my finger on it at this point. So far I have not seen any real evidence that it is really bad.
    Regarding ‘truthaboutpetfood': More than once I have seen articles which were not 100% true or based on science. So just because it says it is not regulated means nothing to me. Fromm works very well for us, I have used the product probably for 8 years.
    I have had dogs for the past 12 years and NEVER fed my dogs anything else but holistic brands even in times when it was not as popular as today. So over the years I got to know LOTS of products.
    I NEVER went to the vet, even when my dog jumped into a canal and almost drowned. He had water in the lungs and I was able to cure the issues with natural remedies. My 11-year old Schnauzer his hair is all soft and he is running around as if he is 1. I do see the results of good nutrition.
    I

  • Sugar

    I did not say that NutriSource is shady. I think it is a good recommendation, but don’t feel they use the highest quality. Of course in the end it is very difficult to exactly say what a company does or does not. I would for sure not talk someone out of it from using the product. You gave a good recommendation. The reason I brought it up is because you brought up the pea issue regarding the Fromm products, so I have mentioned the issues with NutriSource and the fact that they use Sunflower oil. I don’t feel you should feed Sunflower oil to your dogs. I have to admit that I use some of the Addiction products and they do contain Canola oil, but these products are not heated as much as they are only dehydrated, not cooked (saturated fats). As I said, the only reason I brought it up is because you questioned Fromm, and what I was saying is that there are pro and cons regarding many products. I prefer pea protein over sunflower oil.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Could potato possibly be the problem instead of peas? Depends on which varieties of Earthborn and Fromm, in particularly, you tried ..although NV doesn’t have potato, but if the reaction to that was even slightly different, it could’ve been a “detoxing from the potato” reaction. Could just be wishful thinking on my part, because a problem with potato is actually not as, um, problematic as a problem with peas, in terms of the variety of dog food that would still available to you.

  • Betsy Greer

    Hi Karen,

    There was recently a conversation about Nature’s Logic because it appeared as though there may have been some issues with nutritional information on the the company’s website not being up to date. I don’t know that the issues with the website have been corrected as of yet.

    Personally, Nature’s Logic is a product I have a lot of confidence in and I would suggest that if you’re interested in trying it, call or email the company. They’re very responsive. If you’re familiar with Susan Thixton, I know that Nature’s Logic is a food that Susan thinks very highly of as well.

    Nature’s Logic is an excellent product, with whole food ingredients, no synthetic vitamins or minerals added and no ingredients source from China. Nature’s Logic doesn’t contain any peas and uses millet, a gluten free pseudo grain, as its binder. My grain sensitive pup does very well on Nature’s Logic.

  • Karen

    Yes, I currently do a human probiotic, I think it has 7 different strains in it. I have looked at Nature’s Logic before, but I think I saw a convo in the forum between Dr. Mike and someone else that may have scared me off. lol I will look into it again. :-) I will check Timberwolf too, I haven’t heard of that. I live in Minnesota, so I usually have a lot of access to different foods. Peas are definitely hard to avoid, I haven’t had any allergy testing done, but my issues started with Fromm and right after I read they changed their formula and upped the pea protein. (I think.) Then I tried Earthborn and that was disastrous, but it also had a lot of peas. I was wondering it was a pattern. The meat protein sources were different, so I didn’t think it was that.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Ugh. Might have to reduce my rotation down to 6 different companies now then :-( Darn, Storm really liked/likes the GF Lamb!! ..and I loved the price!! :-(

  • Storm’s Mom

    Hi there, Nature’s Logic comes immediately to mind as one to check out… adding digestive enzymes might be an idea too. Hope that helps? It’s really tough to find a pea-free food these days, particularly one that is of high quality :-(

  • Karen

    Hound Dog Mom and Storm’s Mom,
    I see you post here quite a bit and was wondering if you could help me. The struggles I have had with horrid GI issues with my dogs would fill this webpage, so I’ll try and keep it short and sweet. (I’ve written about them in the Fromm and Nature’s Variety forums). I need a GOOD quality food that would work well with sensitive tummy’s. I believe that I need to avoid peas, lamb and possibly- foods that are fish heavy. I have been searching and searching for months and have had failure with Fromm, Earthborn Holistic and Nature’s Variety. Currently my dogs are eating the horrid prescription diet from the vet, and I want nothing more than to get them back onto something else. I know it is not a healthy food, but since they’ve been on it the last 3 weeks it is the first time since April I have not struggled with diarrhea, bloody stools or constant calls to my vet. I believe my one girl in particular may have IBD, and it seems she does better on lower fiber foods. They do get pumpkin and a probiotic at this time. Any help anyone could give me would be GREATLY appreciated. Sorry for the novel. :-)

  • Hound Dog Mom

    They weren’t willing to disclose some detailed information I asked them regarding ingredient sourcing and quality, suppliers, specs, manufacturing, quality control, etc. etc. I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to divulge the info unless they have something to hide.

  • Storm’s Mom

    In what way(s) did you find NutriSource very shady? I just mentioned them in my response as the 1st value-priced GF option that came to mind that I have experience with, had great results with the GF Lamb and it’s part of my rotation… but I’m not wedded to keeping it in the rotation, particularly if the company is being shady. In my (probably relatively very limited ;-D) experience with them, I haven’t gotten that impression at all, but the GF Lamb is probably the lowest quality currently in my rotation, so I’m willing to be persuaded to remove it (the inclusion of sunflower oil doesn’t bother me because it’s the only food that I feed Storm that has sunflower oil).

  • Shawna

    If Fromm tried to “justify” using pea protein for any reason other than to cut their own costs — I would quit using the product and quit recommending it. I actually only use the cat formula.. :)

    Like HDM, I’m curious why you feel “heavy meat protein is not always the best for all dogs” other than liver shunt and later stages of kidney disease as HDM mentioned? For what it’s worth, vegetable protein would be far more problematic for a dog with kidney disease than meat protein…

  • Hound Dog Mom

    A few chronic medical conditions aside, (for example late stage renal failure or liver shunts) could you identify a situation in which “heavy meat protein” is not good for a dog? I’m not aware of any situation in which “heavy meat protein” is harmful to a healthy dog.

    Pea protein on the other hand is a low quality vegetable protein. It’s cheaper than meat – that’s why it’s used, not because it’s superior to meat. What reasons did Fromm give you for using pea protein?

    -Peas belong to the legume family, legumes are high in phytic acid and lectins. This was discussed in an article Kim Kalandar featured on Truth About Pet Food: http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/more-than-health-concerns

    -Pea protein is an ingredient that is not defined by the AAFCO there fore there’s no regulation as to what pea protein is. This issue as recently discussed on Truth About Pet Food: http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/more-than-health-concerns.

    Concerning Fromm vs. NutriSource, I would probably go with Fromm too though. Ingredient-wise I think both foods are about equal however I think Fromm is a much better company. I’ve found NutiSource to be very shady, I guess it could be a good brand if someone is one a budget but it wouldn’t be my first recommendation.

  • InkedMarie

    You can feed your dogs what you want but you will end up saving money by feeding a grain free dog food because most dogs eat less of it. You also will end up with less stool and if you find the right food, you won’t be dealing with soft stool or diarrhea.

  • Sugar

    You have recommended NutriSource. Nutri Source is $ 1.70 per # and Fromm $ 2.50 per # on Petflow, the grain free version (the Gold is cheaper). I can see that Fromm is very expensive, so is Acana. I personally don’t care if I spend $ 10 a month more on dog food for using Fromm. I don’t really care what it costs me to feed good quality food. You are right though if someone doesn’t want to spend the money with NurtiSource they probably still get good food.
    However, NutriSource uses Sunflower Oil and Sunflower meal. It has been long scientifically proven that Sunflower Oil is in dogs carcinogenic. Also I have met someone working for the company and the person said, the company uses cheap ingredients; of course I cannot guarantee this ‘rumor’. Rumor aside, I prefer a company such as Fromm who carefully choses ingredients and have their reasons why they use Pea protein and because they know the dangers of Sunflower oil, they won’t use it, they also don’t use Canola oil, unlike many other companies. I like the fact that they make wise decisions and do everything they can to keep the ingredients on the safe side.
    Did you know that heavy meat protein is not always the best for all dogs, esp. if they have medical issues? It is not going to be harmful for a dog to eat some pea protein. But it is harmful for a dog to use poor quality meats or Sunflower oil.
    What I also like about Fromm is that they do lots of quality control and they are honest, I can 100% rely on them. I see what you say about price, and what you said is valid, but I prefer pea protein over Sunflower oil and meal, over possibly lower quality of meats, as far as I know they are not human grade on NutriSource, or are they? In the end even if the food is equally of quality I would not feed a food with Sunflower oil.
    There are def. pro and cons, but I try to feed foods which are on the safe side.

  • Storm’s Mom

    Fromm isn’t far behind in the “most overpriced food” department… their grain-free is hugely overpriced for what’s in there!! (not a lot of protein from meat…)

  • Sugar

    Why would you want to feed a dog food with low quality ingredients? Obviously this company is all about profits at the cost of quality. All the pets on this food I have ever met have diarrhea, they don’t look great and have no energy. At least everyone I met did not look good at all!
    In comparison Fromm uses HUMAN grade ingredients, NOTHING from China, they do in-house and third party testing, they never had a recall; similar companies are: Annaemat, Verus, Halo, or Health Extension.
    You are taking a risk feeding Hills.

    Please read this below before purchasing this food:

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/science_diet.html

  • Storm’s Mom

    Hills Science Diet is pretty much the most overpriced food out there!!! If you want a solid value-priced grain-free, check out something like NutriSource GF. Grains are VERY inflammatory for a dog, with very little – if any – nutritional value to them. It’s fine to feed a grain-inclusive food or two in a rotation with grain-free foods, but feeding the same food for months or years on end – particularly a grain-inclusive food – is not a good idea. With whatever you switch to (or even if you don’t), make sure you add digestive enzymes and probiotics to the food.. this will help prevent soft stools and diarrhea. Feeding less may also help. Canned pure pumpkin (not the pie stuff!) also works wonders – a teaspoon or so with a kibble works wonders.

  • CodeRed

    same thing with mine since I switched to Oven Baked. It’s been about 6 months I’ve switched and both of my dogs stools are very soft and sometimes they have diarrhea. I have a big (tall, muscular lab) and a beagle cross. They didn’t have that before the switch. I’m thinking about switching to Hills Science Diet even though the reviews here are rather modest. I also heard there is not much difference between grain free and with grain except extorting more money for grain free product than the regular. Dogs are omnivores, which means they eat everything in nature, not just meat. My own dogs often graze like cows the grass and eat berries in the woods. At least The Hill Science Diet don’t extort more money for grain free or with grain – they’re equally priced. It’s up to the owner to decide, it’s not more complicated or costly to produce one over the other.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Is he able to eat a smaller amount of food now that he’s an older puppy or go to 2 meals a day? That can help with stools as puppies usually eat alot more than adults.

  • Pattyvaughn

    That was a huge quality shift and sometimes dogs don’t handle such big shifts as easily as you would like. I think their bodies have trouble adjusting to what enzymes need to be produced in what amounts, so I usually suggest adding probiotics and digestive enzymes. Since you really don’t want to go that route, I’ll suggest NutriSource. It is a food that dogs usually transition to easily and it is good quality.

  • Shichon Mom

    My 7 month old Shih Tzu x Bichon Frise puppy has been on Oven-Baked Tradition Grain Free Puppy but his stools are not solid. I switched him from Royal Canin Mini Puppy because I thought Oven-Baked was a better food but after 2 months of being on just the Oven-Baked his stools are less solid than when he was on Royal Canin. I’d prefer to have him on a food with solid stools than add additives to the Oven-Baked (such as Pumpkin puree). Any suggestions?