Muenster Natural Dog Food (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★★½

Muenster Natural Dog Food receives the Advisor’s second-highest tier rating of 4.5 stars.

The Muenster Natural product line includes five dry dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Muenster Natural Whitefish All Life Stages
  • Muenster Natural Classic Chicken Large Breed
  • Muenster Natural Classic Chicken All Life Stages
  • Muenster Natural Grain Free All Life Stages (5 stars)
  • Muenster Natural Chicken and Pork All Life Stages (5 stars)

Muenster Natural Classic Chicken Large Breed was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Muenster Natural Classic Chicken Large Breed

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 31% | Fat = 18% | Carbs = 43%

Ingredients: Chicken meal, whole ground grain sorghum, whole ground brown rice, chicken fat, (naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), fish meal, barley, flax seed, dried beet pulp, carrots, peas, sweet potatoes, blueberries, cranberries, spinach, pumpkin, muenster cheese, diatomaceous earth (an inert carrier and anti-caking agent), chicory root, natural chicken flavor, fish oil, yeast culture, dried kelp meal, potassium sulfate, sea salt, dried eggs, Yucca schidigera extract, sage, zinc amino acid complex, manganese amino acid complex, copper amino acid complex, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement (natural source vitamin E), mixed tocopherols, citric acid, DHA gold, rosemary extract, ferrous sulfate, choline chloride, manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, cobalt carbonate, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Lactobacillus lactis fermentation product, Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, Bacillus subtillis fermentation product, and Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 4.4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis28%16%NA
Dry Matter Basis31%18%43%
Calorie Weighted Basis27%37%37%

The first ingredient in this dog food is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The second ingredient is sorghum. Sorghum (milo) is a starchy cereal grain with a nutrient profile similar to corn.

Since it is gluten-free and boasts a smoother blood sugar behavior than other grains, sorghum may be considered an acceptable non-meat ingredient.

The third ingredient is brown rice, a complex carbohydrate that (once cooked) can be fairly easy to digest. However, aside from its natural energy content, rice is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The fourth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The fifth ingredient includes fish meal, another protein-rich meat concentrate.

Fish meal is typically obtained from the “clean, dried, ground tissue of undecomposed whole fish and fish cuttings” of commercial fish operations.1

Unfortunately, this particular item is anonymous. Because various fish contain different types of fats, we would have preferred to have known the source species.

The sixth ingredient is barley. Barley is a starchy carbohydrate supplying fiber and other healthy nutrients. However, aside from its energy content, this cereal grain is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The seventh ingredient is flaxseed, one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.

However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The eighth ingredient is beet pulp. Beet pulp is a controversial ingredient, a high fiber by-product of sugar beet processing.

Some denounce beet pulp as an inexpensive filler while others cite its outstanding intestinal health and blood sugar benefits.

We only call your attention here to the controversy and believe the inclusion of beet pulp in reasonable amounts in most dog foods is entirely acceptable.

The ninth ingredient includes carrots. Carrots are rich in beta-carotene, minerals and dietary fiber.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With five notable exceptions

First, this recipe includes peas. Peas are a quality source of carbohydrates. And like all legumes, they’re rich in natural fiber.

However, peas contain about 25% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the meat content of this dog food.

Next, we find diatomaceous earth, also called fossil shell flour. This substance is derived from a fossilized form of microscopic one-celled plants known as diatoms.

Diatomaceous earth is EPA approved for mixing with cereal grains to help control mealworms, crawling insects and other pests. It’s also used as an anti-caking agent in animal feeds.

We’re not sure why it’s included here in this dog food.

In addition, chicory root is rich in inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

Next, fish oil is naturally rich in the prized EPA and DHA type of omega-3 fatty acids. These two high quality fats boast the highest bio-availability to dogs and humans.

Depending on its level of freshness and purity, fish oil should be considered a commendable addition.

And lastly, this food also contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Muenster Natural Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Muenster Natural Dog Food looks like an above-average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 31%, a fat level of 18% and estimated carbohydrates of about 43%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 34% and a mean fat level of 19%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 39% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 58%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the flaxseed and peas, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a notable amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Muenster Natural is a plant-based dry dog food using a notable amount of chicken or fish meals as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 4.5 stars.

Highly recommended.

Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content and (when appropriate) their fat-to-protein ratios.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every report is directly dependent upon the quality of that data.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

12/02/2014 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  • Ricky Endres

    We’ve been using Muenster Natural Grain Free for about 5 months now, and our dog loves it! She had been eating Blue Buffalo before, but just randomly went on a hunger strike and refused to eat any more of it. So far, the switch to Muenster Natural has gone way better than we could have expected. Our dog seems to really love the food. A few other things we’ve noticed is that her eating pattern is very consistent now, where with Blue Buffalo, it really wasn’t. Her poop is much more consistent and more healthy looking now too! Overall, I HIGHLY recommend giving Muenster Natural a shot!

  • Mike Jenks

    These new foods are awesome. I’ve had trouble with finding a food my dog would eat, but I think I’ve finally found it. I was feeding Blue buffalo…when my dog would eat it. So, I switched to the Muenster Natural Chicken and Pork and my dog devours it. Plus free shipping on their website http://www.muenstermilling.com/store

  • C

    Betsy tateltale

  • C

    Shawna tateltale

  • Cavalier

    Patty tateltale

  • phillip

    jp,I experienced the same thing. Long time user and promoter, but started getting bags that smelled chemical, dogs resisted but I left it out until they ate it, thought they were just being finiky. Both my beloved bird dogs died of cancer this January. I still cry when I think I may have fed them something that caused their cancers.

  • mitch
  • BEth

    I too have been buying for years – both labs would eat no problem … now one will not touch it and she is my most sensitive . I will email the company as well .. thanks for positing

  • jp

    i have been using and recommending Muenster dog food for several years and my dogs were all healthy and liked the food. a couple of weeks ago i bought a new bag and i have noticed a strong chemical smell coming from the food. my dogs will no longer eat it, which tells me all i need to know. i have written to the company and advised them of this and inquired as to what they have changed, but i have received no response whatsoever. i will not be buying it any more!

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    The example recipe is correct.  However some formulas in this line of food are corn/soy/wheat free.  Just not all the formulas.

  • Pattyvaughn

    This review was last updated in March, 2012.  At that time this food had both corn and wheat.  Are you saying that they have reformulated?

  • mamdman1

    Muenster Natural Dog Food is
    made without Corn, Soy or Wheat. Then flax seed is added to balance the Omega 3
    and Omega 6 fatty acids. Stabilized flax is natures richest source of Omega 3!
    Nutritional experts have found that a diet rich in Omega 3 and natural
    antioxidants significantly improves the health and appearance of animals.
    Natural tocopherols (which are a source of vitamin E), citric acid, and rosemary
    extract are natural antioxidants used in Muenster Natural.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    that recipe has BHA, BHT and menadione and might have ethoxyquin from the fish meal.

  • Nostalgicgranny

    What about
    Muenster Perfect Balance Dry Dog Food?  It has no wheat, no corn, and no soy. 

  • Lisa

    It is Melissa, and it did pass. :) She actually was ok after the first one, I mean a little under the weather for a day or so, but when she got the 2nd one the Vet even said expect her to be a little under the weather for a few days, and it was longer then a few days. Bella is not getting the vaccine, I frontline her, with as sensitive as she is, I just don’t want to chance the vaccine. Lyme disease comes and goes correct? My sons girlfriend said her dog has problems from time to time from it. I am sorry to hear about your dogs. With the mild winter we had, they said thats why the ticks are so bad. They do have different versions of the vaccine, one is the safest version, which was the one my vet uses. It has the least amount of side effects. She goes Friday for her vaccines so I will talk to the vet. Also, she is now on the Honest Kitchen Love, its the all beef, no eggs, no peas, and not 1 reaction. She has been on it 4 days. Her bowels are completely normal, still 2 times a day. I have not seen her lick or bite her feet once or itch, and her ears are completely normal colored for the first time ever! She even smells good. Only thing is Miley wants it too. So I mix a little in with her Acana duck, which is no big deal. lol I am not going to use the fish one, because they are working on making the eggs free range, which I was told to make sure they are, so I will wait until they do that. 

  • melissa

     If a  dog has a reaction that scares me and causes me to be concerned for their well being, I do not consider that normal. And, if its considered a “normal” reaction to a particular vaccine, that vaccine is not for me and my pets. I have had several lyme positive dogs over the years(most come into rescue with it) but two of my own were infected a few years back. I can directly attribute it to failing to use the Frontline plus when I should have(hubby thought I did it, I thought hubby did) When we use it during the main tick season, we have never had a problem or a dog come up positive

  • Toxed2loss

    The rabies vac IS currently mandatory in most states. The site http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws has a review by state.

    If its mandatory in your state, and your state as no exemption, or doesn’t accept titers, then you have to decide wether you vaccinate or break the law. It’s a horrible decision.

    It is at least a relief to know that they are protected…

    Be sure to ask for 3 year labeled rabies vacs if you have to have one. Te other vacs have multiple year labeled strains too, but vets don’t always push them because they like to see you in there annually. Always ask! If your vet insists your pup needs all the shots, he/she isn’t thinking of your dogs best interest. Remember, the vial is labeled “for use in healthy animals only”!!!!! So if yor dog is itchy, as skin, eye or ear discharge, etc. say, “Not at this time.” you are your pets advocate. & find a new vet. :-}

  • Kaliberknl

    One of the biggest problems with the vaccine is that it does not protect against the myriad other tick borne diseases and people can become complacent.  Deer ticks are so tiny, they are difficult to detect on human skin.  Most of us who have had to suffer with infected dogs do not vaccinate but do have the Idexx Snap 4dx test done biannually for early detection.

  • Lisa

    Thank you, I did not know that. I thought the Rabies was mandatory, Bella is due this month so I will talk to the vet to see what I can avoid. 

  • melissa

     Bob K-

    I should have been clear on brands : ) Our dogs had no problem with the “old” vaccine(the original one ) that was made by Fort Dodge-however, it did not appear to be as effective in studies. Most vets at some point seemed to move(at least in my area) to Merial’s Recombitek(or something to that nature) This was supposed to be a better vaccine with high effective rates-It was the one that caused the issues. 

    Since most vets in my area use Merial products, I have elected to skip the Lyme-not sure about the one you mention. One thing I will note-back in the day’s that I worked in a vet hospital, it was rare for a dog to be given any kind of “other injection” at the same time-you got the distemper/parvo and off you went. I have noticed lately a trend to giving the dog/puppy a “pain med” to help prevent stiffness etc with some of the newer vaccines.

  • Lisa

    Hi Bob, that is the shot I did. It was called Nobivac, is it supposed to be the safest one but Miley was ill for a week and I have never been so scared. However after that she was fine so apparently it is a normal reaction according to the Vet. The 2nd one was the one she reacted to. It was 2 parts. My sons girlfriends Golden has lyme’s disease and he is 5 and they only seen 2 ticks on him in his life, but maybe with the longer coat, it is harder to see. 

  • Lisa

    I am so sorry for the people who lost pets!! :( That is so sad. This is great info, thank you!! Perfect timing as Bella is due this month. I do not do Bordetella anymore, but I had to 1 time because they went to a doggy day care and they mandated they have it. My dogs never had a tick and Miley will be 6 in June except once since we moved and that was because we took them to the wooded area which I don’t anymore. That is the only time I ever seen a tick on them, and I won’t take them now. I am off to watch the video. Thanks :)

  • Bob K

     melissa – What about the newer Lymes vaccine called Nobivac from Intervet/Shering?  I hear is is much better then the older vaccines.  Nobivac®
    Lyme—specifically designed to induce high levels of borreliacidal
    antibodies against  key factors involved in Lyme disease transmission. This vaccine provides a unique second line of defense against infection.

  • melissa

     Shawna-

    I have to agree with you on the Lepto. Typically speaking, in all my rescue years, the most reactions we have seen involved the lepto component. We have not included Lepto in about 12 yrs.

    Lyme-We are in a high risk area, and I still will not do it. Heck, only part of the property the deer do not parade through is my fenced back yard-and we even find a tick or two hitchhiking on a dog from time to time. Last time we Lyme vaccinated was in the late 90’s-when one dog had a severe reaction-stiffness, could not get up to the point of yelping in pain. Never again. We do however use Frontline when the ticks are more common-spring, summer, fall. We do not seem to have a problem once the snow flies, and we have not had a problem with fleas. We use the Frontline every 45 days.

    We do bordetella, but only when necessary(destination requires it) and then we do the intranasal.

  • Shawna

    Morning Lisa ~~ the first person I mentioned that just had to euthanize her 2 year old dog had shots other then rabies but I don’t think she had lymes shot. 

    This last person, Kay, had only given her little 4 year old baby the rabies shot..

    Rabies is mandatory by law so you may not be able to avoid it.  Check with your vet about exemption laws.  In my state the shot can be delayed or avoided all together if the health of the animal is compromised. 

    I think with the others you have to consider the risk of getting the disease against the side affects of the shot.  If you are in a high risk area it MIGHT be worth giving as the disease, if contracted, can be HORRIBLE!!!

    Unfortunately, they can not titer test (testing before giving the shots) for lymes, lepto and bordetella (kennel cough).  Titer tests only work for viral diseases — dispemper, adeno and parvo.

    You can titer for the above three instead of giving them — and I would encourage it if you can..  Titers are significantly more expensive then the shots.

    Check with your extension office on the significance of lymes in dogs in your area.  Also consider how likely it will be for either Miley or Bella to get a tick carrying lymes — on walks, from your yard or not likely at all??

    Leptospirosis and bordetella I personally (and many I’m sure will disagree with me) would NOT GIVE THEM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE..  Lepto is the most reactive vaccine next to rabies..  It is also not very effective..  People can actually get lepto but they only give the shot in 3rd world areas where exposure is VERY likely —- because of the nasty side effects from the shot!!!

    If you want more info on vaccinating — Dr. Karen Becker interviews Dr. Ronald Schultz in this very very very informative 4 part video series :)    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC–bGthNN8

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Lisa,
    The rabies vaccine is reported to have a higher incidence of reactions, but all vaccines contain adjuvants, antibiotics, antibacterials and fungicides. All of which are toxic. The adjuvant is intended to stimulate the immune system into a more aggressive response. It does that by “assaulting it.” The adjuvants are commonly thermerisol, which is 50% mercury, a known neurotoxin. It’s the one used in rabies vacs, unless you specifically ask for one that is thermerisol free. There’s only one: Imrab 3 TF. It uses gentimyacin, an antibiotic and aluminum, also a neurotoxin. The antibiotics, antibacterials and fungicides are necessary to keep the growth of toxic bacterials and molds down, that are inherent in the production process. These are all toxins, and it’s why Dr. Schultz, the head of the Vaccine recommendations board, says that over vaccination is an assault to the immune system. His recommendations are much more conservative. He is participating in the Rabies Challenge fund, which is a fund raising project for the scientific studies that test for duration of immunity. The chemical companies won’t fund the Research, there’s no profit in it for them.

  • Lisa

    Shawna, I am just reading these posts, this is very sad! I could not even imagine. :( Is it just the Rabies vaccine that is supposed to be bad? They also have a lyme vaccine, and I never knew about it until this year and Miley went for her shots and they insisted she have it. They were telling me about all the Lyme disease in dogs and this is one of the highest rated areas for Lyme disease, anyway I will never ever do that again. She had a lot of side effects and I was scared to death. I could not believe I let them convince me to give her that vaccine. They did not explain any side effects, yet they pushed it on me and didn’t even tell me one thing to look for or anything. Bella is due for her shots this month and she is NOT getting that vaccine. Not with her allergies. Even if she didn’t have allergies, she is not getting it. So I should have her tested before her vaccines? With a highly sensitive dog as she, I would think they would want to do that. I will have to ask the vet. This is just the Rabies? The others are ok? 

  • Shawna

    I menioned here earlier in the week a poster on Mercola losing her young pup to hemolytic anemia believed to be caused by vaccination…  Today another posted to the same thread stating the same.  Here entire post is quoted below (with her permission).

    “Hello, I first want to say that I am so sorry for your loss. I definently feel your pain. I went through ths same thing almost 1 year ago when I lost my 4 year old yorkie poo. He developed IMHA and ITP a couple months after receiving his 2nd rabies vaccine. After 2 blood transfusions, steroids, antibiotics and thousands of dollars I lost him to something that could have been prevented. He was the love of my heart and I am still in pain from losing him. I started a petition a couple of months ago which would require vets to test pets before administering vaccines to see if they even need it. If they have enough antibody in their blood, they should be allowed exempt from having to receive the vaccine. If you would like, please visit the link below and pass along to your FB family and anyone else that you know who would be willing to support this cause. I feel very passionately about doing something about this because I never want anyone to have to suffer the way I did. There are holistic vets out there that understand this and won’t push vaccination, I hope that you can find one. -Kay https://www.change.org/petitions/pepper-s-bill-stop-overvaccination

    http://healthypets.mercola.com/groups/healthypets/forum/p/128687/469274.aspx#469274

  • Toxed2loss

    Aaa awww! Thanks Sandy!!!!!! You are a champ!

  • Shawna

    Sandy ~~ YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!  Thank you :-)

    You are such a sweet, intelligent and kind person!!  This site is so much better for having you here!!!  

    Love the picture!!! :)

  • SandyDuarte

    Yes they are all helpful as well and I haven’t been discouraged by the naysayers yet and don’t intend to be! I’m sure I’ll have more questions coming your way and to others here when I start to include raw into her diet.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    You’re welcome.  But I’ve been learning from other experts/other peoples’ experiences on this site for about 2 years now, maybe more…I lose track of time.  My pug is 4.5 yrs now and I’ve been fostering for over 3 years (past foster #125 recently).  I only came here at the advise of another concerned foster pug lady.  Thank goodness I did! Stick around and you’ll learn lots of things and differing viewpoints not just on dog food, either, but other topics.  Special thanks to Shawna and Toxed for always sharing their knowledge base.  I think you can also find both of them at the Mercola pet site.  And the other regulars here are always so helpful – some more natural, some more scientific.  (And then of course there are some that are not helpful and not so nice) but don’t let that discourage you from this site.  I would have kept feeding the largest, most colorful bag of cheap dog food if I hadn’t learned any better!  Remember the picture of my pug with hardly any hair?!!  And of course, not all foods/treats/therapies work for all dogs!!  I can only tell you what has worked on mine. And I’ve used alot of stuff!  Are you keeping a dog diary?  And are you a member of a species-specific dog forum.  I forgot what kind of dog you have.  Is that a pit bull?  I’m a member at PugVillage too and it is really helpful sometimes when one is looking for something specific for your breed.  I’ve saved alot of bookmarked sites.

    http://www.amazon.com/Work-Wonders-Feed-Meaty-Bones/dp/0975717405/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338750613&sr=8-1-fkmr1

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_12?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=billinghurst.+ian&sprefix=billinghurst%2Cstripbooks%2C232

  • SandyDuarte

    Thank you so much sandy, I knew I came to the right person for advise. You really didn’t have to go thru all this trouble. But without you and this site my puppy wouldn’t be as healthy as she is and I know will continue to be. I get so many compliments on how soft and shiny her coat is. My boyfriend thinks I’m crazy because of everything I’ve been reading up on and getting for her but I just want to be educated and know what’s best for her. I just got in now so I’ll go thru all the links you sent me, I also picked up some coconut oil to try. Thanks again. :)

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy
  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Click on the 2 products (probiotics and enzymes) for some good info.  Actually her recipe book has great info too even if you don’t plan on home cooking.

    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/products.aspx

    You can also use the Brothers kibble as a treat or put it in a treat ball, something like an IQ Ball.

    I’ll link some more articles for you later today.

    I use several brands of treats and always like trying new treats.  Stella and Chewy’s has freeze dried treats, Instinct freeze dried and Dr Becker Solutions Bites I use.  I also give my kids chlorella and spirulina, but supplements are another story!!

  • SandyDuarte

    Oh and no I haven’t given probiotics yet, do you suggest I do, what are the benefits?

  • SandyDuarte

    Thanks for your reply. Maybe I will try the coconut oil. I was told to just use a drizzle in her food, is that correct? I saw Earthbath on the Brothers site, maybe i’ll take a look at it some more. I was thinking it might be from the diet as well, I want to be able to move to the Earthborn as soon as possible but have made it a slow transition since it took her some time to get used to the Canidae. I also just got some samples from Brothers and she loves it, i’ll give her that when the transition is done. Haven’t tried the roasted duck feet, I also saw that Bravo has freeze-dried treats would FreshisBest be a better product? She got her shots done at Petco including heartworm and will be getting her last set of puppy shots including rabbies, i believe, in 2 weeks. My dog loves the grass too, she just plops down in it especially after a walk or play.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Coconut oil would be good for the dry spot. And also good to add to her diet. I’ll send you the coconut oil article when I get home (if you haven’t seen one yet).  I also give CocoTherapy coconut chips. You can also see Dr Karen Becker’s video on coconut oil on youtube.  I use Earthbath right now and avoid oatmeal (even with bathing) since it is a carb. BUT, I rarely bathe my dogs – 2 or 3 times a year, that’s all. In fact, they haven’t had a bath yet this year.  Wow how time flies! My dogs have no smell!  They do get brushed as pugs are shedders and they get their nose rolls cleaned out, occasional Zymox to their ears. I bathed one of my fosters last week though.  They are a bit yeasty smelling so no oatmeal baths for them.  Be sure to check your Dogswell jerky as most are made in China. Have you seen roasted duck feet?  Good snack and fairly cheap. I like meat treats and currently use grain free biscuits, liver treats, and will be ordering some FreshisBest freeze dried treats when I get around to it. They tried roasted trachea last month and really loved it too.  As far as itch, it could be anything.  Do  you use chemicals in the yard? What about the topical flea and tick/heartworm meds?  My dogs roll around in the grass but I think it just feels good!  They are heat intolerant and the grass feels cool. They don’t scratch otherwise.  It could also be diet.  As she is young, she may still be building up her gut heatlh. Are you giving probiotics?

  • Shawna

    I am actually familiar with the 2011 Guidelines….Dr. Becker released an article discussing the revisions shortly after released..

    I find the 2011 to be a watered down version of the 2006.  Example — no comment on the known efficacy of the core vaccines in the new Guidelines.

    Admittedly, I haven’t read through the entire article — just viewed the chart.

  • Shawna

    What do you mean by this Nemo?

    “One of the problems are people confusing this with the people who resist childhood vaccinations, which is a projection of that on to our pets. Not the same issue, but people seem to be projecting it nevertheless.”

    This is unfortunate about Washington State :(

    Titer isn’t accepted in my state either (for rabies at least).  Luckily, however, we do have medical exemptions..

  • Nemo

     The most current official position on vaccines from the AVMA (2011), is here:

    https://www.aahanet.org/Library/CanineVaccine.aspx

    The actual paper can be downloaded via the link at the bottom. It’s long and somewhat technical, but certainly not incomprehensible by a non-Vet.

    They do state quite clearly that a titer test for an otherwise heathly animal is not considered a substitute for the mandatory annual rabies boosters by State/Local governments that have required them.

  • Toxed2loss

    Thank you very much!!!!!!! I used quotes around ‘absolute proof’ because I get what your saying, but meant “those who will demand more evidence than one paper.” Plus, I like to study something in more depth, before I’m comfortable giving an opinion on it. I didn’t have any other papers on it, hadn’t got to it, so left it alone until I do my homework. Thanks for the study material!!!!

  • Nemo

    This has actually been well cited since the 90’s.

    http://www.healthyhappydogs.com/VaccinationDanger
    http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_vaccination.php

    I include the PAWS cite because they have excellent references, not because I agree with their parent organization’s point of view.

    In Science, especially the Medical Arts, nothing is absolute, but the evidence has been steadily mounting, and the number of Vets who agree has been rising. So, “absolute proof” depends upon the ability of the person to understand the scientific method. I won’t get into that further, but I will say that being able to understand the strengths and limitations of a particular study/paper is essential to one’s idea of “absolute proof.”

    One of the problems are people confusing this with the people who resist childhood vaccinations, which is a projection of that on to our pets. Not the same issue, but people seem to be projecting it nevertheless.

    Nothing is 100 percent in Science or in life. However, on this subject there quite a large chorus and the resistance by Vets to accept it when confronted is seems not very strong when you talk about it in the exam room today.

    Unfortunately, in WA St where I live, they just passed a state law requiring yearly Rabies shots… Not sure how that is going to turn out. Last I checked a titer is not a way to avoid or satisfy that requirement.

  • monkey

    I’ve been dealing with dry skin too towards the tail. I don’t know if it is the groomers doing or not but my brother is probably taking her somewhere else next time that pays more attention to individual dogs needs. There is also a product by Happy Tails called Fur Butter that i am thinking about trying. It might be worth looking into for a conditioner that you can rub into her back? Earthborn GF Omega 6/3 ratios are really close (except primitive natural) so i probably wouldnt add any fish oils. Grain can be drying so maybe the switch will work for you!

  • SandyDuarte

    Hi sandy, i’d like your opinion on something. I went to a local groomer/pet store and asked about something that would help Mila with dry skin, mostly she has it at times toward her lower back near her tail (and wearing her harness) and it was suggested to me to use coconut oil. I thought maybe it was her shampoo so I’ve changed it to the oatmeal kind, and also am changing her kibble to Earthborn GF because maybe the grain in the Canidae single grain was bothering her. I’ve changed all her treats to jerky (dogwell, zuke’s). Is this what you would suggest also? She does love to roll around in the grass especially to cool down if it’s hot out so could it just be the dirt making her itchy?

  • someperson11111

    geez, this could have been my dog, i had every intention of buying some antlers, having heard so many others exclaim how much their dog loved it, how long they last, etc etc.

    but, i simply couldn’t afford one.  The store bought ones, which did seem hard to me, started at $28 for a small piece.
    We are now always on the lookout for antlers in the woods now….i wonder how to determine if the shed antler is soft enough to be safe for a dog to gnaw on…? if we find one, i mean.
    Most years, we’d notice tons of antlers, but, since we started looking for them, of course, now we never see any !! LOL!

  • Toxed2loss

    One clue you can use is if the center part is a light pinkish color. The center part of the antler is kind of like a quick, in the nail bed. Only it’s temporary. Dear & Elk shed them and grow new ones each season. The center can be a light tan, too, but in fresh ones, it’s more pinkish. Thats where the blood supply was, for growing. In old ones, including cast antlers, it’s pale yellow or white/grey. The older, the harder.

  • aimee

     Someperson,

    It was a store bought antler. The salesperson at the natural pet store had convinced her it was the very best chew item.

    I know she was planning on taking it back to the store, telling the salesperson what happened  and asking them to foot the bill for the dental work. I have no idea what became of that.

  • someperson11111

    Aimee, this dog with a chipped tooth was using a store bought “hard” antler, or a “fresh” one?

  • aimee

     I was wondering if fresh antler had a different consistency. Thanks for verifying. Only ones I’ve seen in pet store are rock hard!

  • Toxed2loss

    I’ve read that article. It’s pretty cool info, but if someone is looking for “absolute proof” they’re going to dismiss that, unless you can back it up with 3 or more additional sources. Do you have them? I’d love to get hold of some! :-)

  • Toxed2loss

    That’s why I said fresh. Old antlers are hard as rocks. But this seasons antlers are “living” and relatively soft, by comparison. More like a really hard parmasean cheese. When the dogs chew them, it looks like finely grated Parmesan. :-)

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Have you tried Earth Bath? I’m using the Mediterranian one right now.

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Aimee….

    Good. cause I was not saying that to you, per say.
    But I felt bad anyway.

  • Shawna

    My problem with SkeptVet is that he is anti-alternative..  NOT that he is pro-science because he ignores science if it doesn’t support his viewpoint..

    This is on the first page of his website

    “Most alternative medicine is not mainstream for good reason. If it’s truly effective it will become mainstream and no longer alternative. If it remains alternative, it belongs there. Scott L. Replogle, M.D.” 

    You may not agree with some alternative concepts but I do feel you have an open mind.  SkeptVet CLEARLY has a closed mind to anything alternative. 

    And THANK YOU!!  That was very kind of you to say!!!

  • Shawna

    Did you read the article Kaliberknl?

    The author (a vet) is stating that if the number is LOW it doens’t mean there is not still immunity and revaccinating may not be necessary….

    I’m surprised you would agree with that.

  • Shawna

    Okay Nemo, I just read the entire article word for word and I actually strongly agree…

    For those that are either bullied into vaccinating or are fearful for their pet, titers are a better option then vaccinating out of fear though..

    As mentioned, Dr. Becker has shown immunity for over 20 years..  My Pom Peanut (I have two) has had the same readings each and every time she has had the test done.  Admittedly, she is the only one I have titered as the others were adopted already having health issues so I wouldn’t vaccinate them anyway.. 

    I completely agree with the article (and Dr. Schultz has stated) that vaccines can give immunity for a lifetime.   

  • Shawna

    Hi Nemo :)

    Okay, I do like the very last sentence of the article (admittedly I skimmed through rather then reading word for word).  The last sentence reads.

    “And if protection against invaders is your ultimate goal, rather than vaccinating repeatedly, you would do far better to strengthen the immune system. Transfer Factor does this safely, simply, and surely, in all species of animals, including Homo sapiens.”

    I couldn’t agree more!!!!!  I rely on this with my Audrey..  She was born with kidney disease so vaccinations are not an option — she is exempted for life from receiving rabies (has never been vaccinated) and and only received puppy shots of other core vaccines…  She is actually healthier then the 7 other pups in the house — despite her kidney disease…

    Regarding titers however — if the American Veterinary Medical Association says titers are valid proof of immunity for vets then I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply to our pets too.. 

    “Physicians, local health departments, and travel clinics may offer pre-exposure human rabies vaccinations to veterinarians and their staff. Veterinarians also have several options on where to receive a rabies titer test.”  http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr06/060401b.asp

    Dr. Karen Becker stated on her Facebook page that she was vaccinated at age 14 (she was a licensed wildlife rehabilitator) and has been titered since — over 20 years later she has never required additional rabies vaccinations.  Her titer shows she is protected and the AVMA accepts that as proof.

  • Shawna

    He couldn’t handle being around us..  We eat raw garlic on everything from salads to veggies and eat roasted garlic on about everything..  :)

  • Kaliberknl

     Agreed…pathogens don’t shrivel up and die because a magic number is reached.

  • Nemo

     Those that rely on titer tests to make a decsion upon whether or not to revaccinate should really know what that test actually measures:

    http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/vaccinations/a/FALC_vacctiters.htm

    Just sayin’

  • aimee

    I don’t have time tonight to read  the garlic info and brain is fried for any “heavy lifting” but it looks to be really interesting!!

    I don’t feed garlic but in a healthy dog I wouldn’t expect a problem in small doses. I think in Skeptvet blog on garlic a few ? vets wrote in a said they saw problems.

    Unfortunately we are a garlic and onion free house as hubby can’t stand even the smallest amounts! He is so sensitive… Only time I get to indulge is when he is out of town for work. BUT then I have to make sure not to have any for at least three days before he returns as he can still smell it on me… Did I say he is very sensitive … shesh!  : )   

  • aimee

    Hey Johnandchristo,

    No worries I have thick skin which is why I made light of  the comment. : )

  • aimee

    I have to admit that I thought it weird when he said it splintered because it was a “second” which is what he hands out. I kinda thought gee if you are trying to get buyers to add your product to their store wouldn’t you want to give out your “best”.

    Antlers scare me becasue of the teeth factor. Someone in one of the training classes I was in bought one for her dog and 1/2 hour later was in the vet office with a fractured carnassial tooth. It was in three pieces! The tooth not the antler : )

  • Nemo

     Agreed. In fact, more people would do better to find out what their particualar breed/mix ate in the countries they were originally bred in. The original Standard Schnauzer had a diet that included whole grain wheat and rye, basically the heavy German diet–Beef, potatoes, carrots etc.

    Granted this may not work for some, but it does work for others. I have found anything with soy or white rice makes my Standard Schnauzer start scratching himself silly. Neither of those are in a German’s diet…

    BTW, he was fed Purina Puppy Chow until one year of age, and he thrived, and had some pretty well developed muscles, so even on a two star food can be OK in many cases. I switched him to Nutro Max and Ultra after a year…

  • aimee

    I totally agree which is why I incorporate fresh into my dog’s diets. I’m sure there are gobs of nutrients that haven’t been identified yet. I use kibble as a base to work off of.

  • aimee

    Too funny…but I don’t consider you an adversary… you stretch my mind which is a good thing!

     Skeptvet is a much greater mind that I have!!  I like his stuff cause he does reference well but I have to say he seems pretty anti raw based on the number of postings on that topic.

  • Toxed2loss

    I think that’s a reasonable concern Bob, and a very valid point.
    :-)

  • Bob K

     Toxed – Even if the vaccines were good things I can not for the life of me get get over the concept that one size vaccine fits all dogs. One Parvo/distemper or Ravies shot no matter the size of the dog just makes no sense to me.  

  • Toxed2loss

    Mikey, I titered Rosie for Distemper/Parvo. That means I know that she never needs another one, cause her count was ‘that high.’ If she’d had even one rabies vac, I’d titer that to test for immunity. But she hasn’t. It’s too toxic. The problem for me is that my son lives in a rabies active state. I want to be able to visit him, and keep her safe. That’s why I want a safe vac to be available. There is a real risk of rabies exposure in some states. I know that the science says that one is enough, and probably for a life time, not the arbitrary, 1-3 years that was decided on by a beauracrat. The science also says that if one doesn’t confer immunity, chances are that subsequent ones won’t either. The science also says that the vaccines don’t need the toxic adjuvants, and foreign DNA bits. In other words, it can be done a lot safer! So I’m going to have to wait for the safer one. But we won’t be getting anymore D/P shots, either.

    Posting another food pic for you! ;-)

  • Mike P

    Toxi I’m inclined to not vaccinate anymore.In Jubilee’s young life she has had 3 rabbie and 4 distemper/parvo shots.I got her the 3 yr rabbie in March and refused the parv/distemper that my vet insisted we get. I’m putting my faith in the Dodds and Shultz’s and all of their research that has not been approved by the money hungry government laws.I lost two great Boxers to cancer.My fault on the bad nutrion part as I was a dumbass on that one, but they also had yearly vacs which I believe also played a part.I have nothing to lose when juby’s life expectancy is 10 to 12 years.I want to outlive her so I hope she lives for 20 more years lol…

  • Toxed2loss

    Monkey, I also use Naturoli’s soap nut shampoo on the dogs, too. It’s very mild and naturally conditions. In case you want other options. When I use Earthypet, it’s only a couple of drops, with something else. While its safe, it’s still pretty smelly. ;-}

  • monkey

    I tried Dr. Bronners on my shih-tzu. Didn’t work out for us. I can usually judge the shampoo by her urge to get out of the bathtub too. With Bronners she wanted out ASAP, she didnt like it at all. With B3 Why Itch she stands in the bathtub relaxing. I hope Becker brings back her shampoo though, i want to try it.

  • LabsRawesome

     I’m with you Shawna. My kitten licked herself bald and bloody after her kitten vaccinations. Vets had no idea why. I made them treat her for yeast overgrowth, and she finally stopped licking, her hair never did grow back in completely. She just has an undercoat in some spots, no top coat. No more vacc’s for her. She stays inside all the time.  :(

  • Toxed2loss

    Rushed tone noted. :-) I didn’t take it as adversarial, just a discussion of differing view points. My tone should be read as exhausted… I over did it. GFETE

    When you say “genetic diseases,” are you aware that they are caused by teteragenic environmental toxins? (in a previous generation) Many environmental toxins are known to damage genetic material, and many have specificity to reproductive tissue. In addition, toxins that the gestating mother is exposed to cross the placental barrier, damage the developing fetus and manifest in the offspring, as either mutations or “weaknesses” (genetic diseases or a predisposition for such, in that animal or a subsequent generation).

    I have severe pesticide poisoning. I was sprayed while surveying a field in 1996, with an organophosphate, insecticide. Even though I repeatedly told doctor’s about the spraying, they ignored it and diagnosed several other things. In fact, if they had listened, and treated me for OP pesticide poisoning, right away, I would never have ended up disabled. It was one of the pesticides that there was actually a treatment for… But, they didn’t want to look there. They wanted to look for something else.

    I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, “take your problem to a neurologist, he’ll diagnose you with a neurologic problem. If you take the same problem to a cardiologist, he’ll diagnose you with a cardiac issue, etc,” Many times people see what they expect to see. (now its my turn to emphasize that I’m not intending to be adversarial)

    I just have done a lot of study on consumer product and environmental toxins, as they relate to several different medical specialities. Leading specialists in the fields of oncology, neurology, birth defects & reproductive medicine, and cardiology, all concluded that consumer product & environmental toxins either cause or exacerbate all forms of chronic disease. Have you read the “Health Case for Reforming the Toxic Substance Control Act”?

    So, I am siding with those breeders. Their pups health issues, wether mutation or “genetic diseases” are caused by environmental toxins. When we start peeling the onion, that’s what we find. They are interdependent issues.

    So, what I discussed with the immunologist at Merck, when I went looking for a non-toxic Rabies vac, for my dog, (who has vacinosis, and I still want protected) is that we need solutions that are not going to cause more problems. I can’t have my dog vacced, even if she didn’t have vaccinosis. I’m so immune compromised and the stuff they put in the rabies vac is so toxic, it volatizes out of the dog and makes me very sick. So, the immunologist is completely on board with safer vaccines. This makes sense. Especially as we consider the rising number of health problems in pets, and people, and we still need protection. That safer vaccine is 5-10 years away.
    Here’s to hoping!!

  • Shawna

    I saw a connection to gerbils (a pocket pet for sure :) but obviously I have incorrect or old data.. :) 

    Agree or disagree with each other, we/I do appreciate your insight here.. 

    Your first post (reply) to me put me on the defensive but that is an issue I need to work through :)..

  • Kaliberknl

     My dogs can usually be found easily on the net.  The youngest is off to agility class so I can have some peace tonight.  As for me, you’ll find little – my glory days are past tense :-)

  • Shawna

    My Pom had a mild seizure a few days after having her rabies vaccine.  One year later she had another seizure exactly four days after getting the shot.  I was on the phone with my allopathic vet when it happened.  I asked if it could be the vaccine since it happened two years in a row.  She agreed it “could” be the cause.

    Sometimes we don’t see what we aren’t looking for —- and likewise we do see what we want to see. 

    However, there is enough negative info from legitimate sources to warrant all of us being careful.. 

    This is an example of what I’m talking about (cats and kidney disease possible due to vaccinations).

    “The vaccine companies are doing a great job making pure and effi cacious vaccines,” said Dr. Lappin. “However, when FVRCP vaccines are made, each dose is contaminated with just a little bit of cell culture. What we discovered recently was that cats not only develop antibodies to the viruses in the vaccine, which is our intent, but they also develop antibodies to the cell culture – a culture based on a feline kidney cell line. And that’s where we have to begin to ask some very intriguing questions. In particular, is it possible that overvaccination induces antibodies that are associated with immune-mediated feline kidney disease?”  http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/insight/2004/fall2004/cats.htm

    Kidney disease is certainly something that is not going to be linked to vaccinations given years before…  Yet their is a concern that there may be a link…

  • Shawna

    LOL!! I only saw one review and that was a positive one talking about pups coming from you (wasn’t really looking though).. The person said your dogs are intelligent and a bit mischievous — I think were her words :)…  I like dogs with personalities so I view that as GOOD :)..

  • Kaliberknl

     Thanks…I’ll give it a try :-)

  • Kaliberknl

     Well, I hate reptiles and birds hate me but I have seen my share of pocket pets.  My patients were mostly canine and feline.  Most owners liked me…animals not always so much.  Lord only knows what is written on this interface :-)

  • Kaliberknl

     Unlike other pet vaccines, rabies vaccine must be tested using live virus challenge in order to be approved.  In 1988 we had a rabies vaccine recall because vaccine labeled for three year use was found not to protect against disease for the stated duration of immunity.  My evidence is anecdotal but I have never seen a rabies vaccine reaction and have probably administered thousands of doses.  (Having had the vaccine myself, I am aware of the problems it may cause in people.)  I have, however, seen genetic diseases cause havoc on thousands of animals, mixed breeds included.  Breeders tend to blame environment when DNA is to blame.  Tone can be difficult to convey on the internet.  Please know I am not trying to be adversarial but am in a rush.

  • Toxed2loss

    I read that too but not sure if it depends on source. I was also not impressed with the merchandizing of sharks…

  • Shawna

    Because we don’t know how much garlic is in the Tripett I am reluctant to say to give too much more…  The amount may be miniscule but we just don’t know???  If you notice she is having an issue with bugs you may want to increase it a bit but I would do so in small increments – maybe 1/2 close a few times per week and see if any improvement. 

    Dogs don’t sweat but they do have pores and the garlic smell (assuming the sulpher) is released through the mouth and pores.  It is the smell that I think keeps the pests away..  Garlic is one of the ingredients used in products sprayed around the yard.  It doesn’t take much garlic to create an odor (especially one detectable to pests)..

  • Shawna

    Squalene is also a nasty (per Blaylock) found as an adjuvant in vaccines???  Maybe on the body it is safe while injected as an adjuvant it is not?  And I still can’t shake thought of the link to formaldehyde but I can’t remember where I read it?????  Grrrrr

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Monkey,
    I hopped over to her ite, and don’t see it anymore. But, the “Flea and Tick Defense” is the same essential oils that used to be in her pet shampoo. If you used Dr. Bronner’s, which Dr. Becker as said has the correct Ph balance for dogs, with the flea & Tick Defense, you end up at the same spot. ;-)

    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/products.aspx

  • Toxed2loss

    O.k. I looked up squalene…
    “Squalene oil is a compound found in the livers of deep-sea sharks and in plants and vegetables. It is also naturally produced in small amounts in human tissue cells, and it is vital for synthesizing cholesterol and vitamin D in the body.

    Read more: What Is Squalene Oil? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_7474835_squalene-oil.html#ixzz1wZKCCFhr

    O.k. So depending on source & processing, it could be o.k. But the free glutamate sources are enough for me to say “no.” ;-)

  • Toxed2loss

    Thank you Mikey! I do groom her myself. All the commercial places use fragranced products, so I wouldn’t even be able to have her back in my house… Even if they used a fragrance free product on her. Transfer. If you’ve ever driven through an area with a road-killed skunk, you get the idea. All VOCs work the same way. Synthetic VOCs are deigned to last for months. Rosie gets rinsed with water a lot. Even rinsing to the skin with just water interrupts the flea life cycle. The peppermint, cloves, rosemary and lavender repel the fleas. Garlic from the inside makes the dog “not tasty.” by the way, I read that one fresh ground clove added to the garlic in their food once a week, even helps with Heartworm. I mixed up a spritzer bottle of essential organic clove oil, to add to my arsenal. GFETE. I’d ask Shawna about garlic dosing. :-) I give a pinch of powdered every now and then. But we bath so frequently, it’s not an issue. Rosie has to be rinsed off every time she comes in from pottying after they’ve sprayed, until the VOC period has passed. Good thing she’s a poodle and likes to play in the water!

    Did you copy my flea & tick IPM?

  • monkey

    Where is Dr. Becker’s shampoo? I have only seen the video of her talking about them but i haven’t seem them available for purchase.

  • Shawna

    Hi Mike ~~ Good to see you.. 

    The ingredient list doesn’t really give a lot of information as to the EXACT ingredients however squalene triggered a pause for me…  For some reason I equate squalene to formaldehyde??  Toxed — I’m bowing out and letting you take this one…. :-)

    The Creme Rinse has “hydrolyzed” wheat protein and citric acid — I’m assuming excitotoxins would be just as detrimental via topical exposure?…

  • Mike P

    Hi Toxi…Thanks I will look at those.Jubilee only gets a bath 3 or 4 times a year.I brush her daily and wash her face,feet,ears,butt,and her private with a damp wash cloth.Do you groom Rosie?She is stunning!What do you think about the garlic thing?Should I give more than once a week?I give her tumeric capsules 3 times a week and also fish oil capsules a few times a week as well.She gets Sardines (rinsed)on wednesday.Sunday,Monday,and Tuesday she gets 1/3 can of Tripett which contains garlic.

  • Shawna

    I would dearly love to attend a lecture by Dr. Dodds or Dr. Becker :)..  A friend sponsored a lecture given by Dr. Schultz and sent me a copy of the CD..  :)

    My girlfriend, in California, actually gets to take her pups to Dr. Dodds!!  Very jealous :)…

    I remember Dr. Schultz commenting that he already has proof rabies lasts at least 7 years but the study was not conducted in a manner that was acceptable.  Also the French, I believe, have proof but it too is not acceptable here in the States.

    Dr. Becker says (as a wildlife rehabilitator) that she was vaccinated at 14 years of age and has been titered every year since—-over 20 years later she is still protected and has not required revaccination…

    Have you seen Dr. Becker’s 4 part interview with Dr. Schultz —- a TON of GREAT information is presented…

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Mikey!
    I’m super picky, besides being toxically injured. I won’t use that one. Here’s the Ingrediants list I found…

    INGREDIENTS
    Purified water, natural emollients, chelating agents, hydrolyzed wheat protein, colloidal oatmeal, stearyl alcohol, citric acid, almond essence, and olive oil squalene (natural preservative). All ingredients are natural, 100% biodegradable, and gentle for humans & animals.

     The ingredients I don’t like, ” hydrolysed wheat protein, citric acid. Both are sources of free glutamate, and absorb through the skin. Plus I don’t like the terms “natural emollients, cheating agents, and squalene too ambiguous. I think Dr. Becer’s product is better. I use Earthypet, or Dr. Bronner’s mint Castile soap, which Dr. Becker also o.k.s. just my preference. :-}

  • Johnandchristo

    HI Mike

    Its the Brothers Oatmeal,allergy Itch Relief. really worked great
    Christo shined up like a new penny!!!

  • Mike P

    Which one did you get John??I was eyeballin the mint…

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Mike …..

    I know you asked Shawna, but I got that shampoo,
    it works great.

  • Mike P

    Hi Shawna…I have been giving Jubilee 2 cloves of garlic once a week.I thought it would be a good idea now that it’s bug season around here.This could be for you or Toxi…Have you guys seen the natural dog shampoo that Richard sells?Any thoughts??

  • HealthyDogs

    http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
    This highlights Drs. Shultz and Dodds work on Rabies vaccine which they are working on moving to 5-7 year rather than 3 year.  They were instrumental in getting the 3yr through the AVMA.  This work has been going on for many years. I attended a Dr. Dodds lecture and it was exceptional.

  • Johnandchristo

    Shawna …….

    When I first came hear, I knew very little.
    I liked you and respected you from the get go because 
    you Helped me and made me feel welcome. I learned a lot, and I hope to keep learning. I dont want put anyone down because they may or may not feed menadione, I truly believe it is poison . And want to spread the word. I used to just read your posts, and Toxed and dog food ninja, and Richard. I was a little intimidated at first but all you guys let me in on the fun, and of coarse helped out my best pal Christo.
    I’m still learning things from you guys.

  • Toxed2loss

    GFETE, then show up at his house when he’s arriving back from the hunt and his wife will help you get the antlers. If she’s like me, she’s more than enthusiastic about encouraging him not to keep “another” rack!!!!!!!!!

  • Shawna

    OHHHHH Jonh ~~ You just mentioned something that I knew but didn’t think about…

    Probiotics do “create” vitamin K as well as other vitamins like B’s.. 

  • Shawna

    THANK YOU for saying that John!!!!  And you are right, I would never intentionally snub or try to hurt someone for the choices they make…..***especially when circumstances force that choice…. 

    Food is the foundation for health but it is certainly not the only factor.. 

  • Johnandchristo

    Hears some thing to think about:

    Menadione (Vitamin K3)One of the more obscure ingredients found in many pet foods are menadione derivatives – in the form of menadione sodium bisulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite, menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfate, menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfite or menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite, often listed as “a source of vitamin K activity” or “vitamin K supplement”. Unless otherwise noted, these compounds are summarily referred to as “menadione” in this article to make it easier to read.Watch out:Some manufacturers leave out the “menadione” part of the above chemical names in their ingredient lists (e.g. you see only “dimethylprimidinol sulfate” listed instead of “menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfate”), and menadione does not only occur in dry and canned foods, but edible chew toys, supplements and treats as well.
    Thoroughly research any item with an ingredient list that claims a “source of vitamin K”, “source of vitamin K activity” or “vitamin K” in parentheses and contact the manufacturer if you have any questions.What is it?Menadione, also known as vitamin K3, is a synthetic version of vitamin K. The natural occuring compounds are vitamin K1 (Phylloquinone, from plant sources) and Vitamin K2 (Menaquinone, synthesized by bacteria in the digestive tract and absorbed by the body). Technically menadione isn’t even a vitamin, but a precursor that is converted in the body after ingestion. Natural vitamin K is fat soluble, while menadione derivatives (pure menadione can not be processed) are water soluble and bypass the natural pathway of utilization by the body.Why is it added to pet food?Menadione is added as an inexpensive vitamin K supplement in commercial foods. The common statement as to why it is added is “to help with blood clotting”, yet it is scientifically proven that the effectivity of menadione on blood clotting is inferior. Even veterinarians will administer vitamin K1 as an antidote to dogs who have for example ingested rat poison, which causes internal bleeding.Manufacturers who use menadione in their products also like to claim that it is “more stable” than natural vitamin K and has “more nutritional value”. Not a single one of them has acknowledged the scientifically proven side effects of this substance.It is simple to come to a conclusion about the truth in these statements when you consider thatnot all pet food companies add menadione to their foods and dogs have eaten these products for years without developing deficiencies
    the National Research Council was not able to demonstrate a dietary requirement for vitamin K in dogs during tests when natural ingredients were fed and
    fish meals, liver and green plant supplements (e.g. alfalfa, kelp and other seaweed, nettle leaf, blue-green algae, spirulina) are rich sources of natural vitamin K.Why is it bad?As a non-native speaker (German is my native language), it has been difficult for me to compose this article in English, since I had to translate most of my information from literature originally written in German. My search for relevant, unbiased sources in English was not very successful, with exception of some obscure references and texts that provided some information but do not include all the facts. There were also many articles written by authors who didn’t even have the basic knowledge to differentiate between vtiamin K1, K2 and K3.Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. It is incomplete, since my English medical terminology is lacking and I was simply not able to translate the more complicated scientific phrases into proper English:causes cytotoxicity in liver cells
    causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions
    considerably weakens the immune system
    possible mutagenic effects
    damages the natural vitamin K cycle
    has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested)
    causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses
    disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis
    is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K
    builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives
    causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes
    causes allergic reactions and eczemaReferences:
    Bässler, K.-H. et al. (1997): Vitamin-Lexikon für Ärzte, Apotheker und Ernährungswissenschaftler. ISBN: 3437211404
    DGE (2000): Referenzwerte für die Nährstoffzufuhr. ISBN: 3829571143
    Elstner, E. F. (1990): Der Sauerstoff. ISBN: 3411140011
    Friedrich, W. (1987): Handbuch der Vitamine. ISBN: 3541120118
    Hoehne, Dr. med. vet. Eberhard (1985): Vitamine. ISBN: 3873470284Things to considerMenadione (e.g. menadione sodium bisulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite or menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite)has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food
    has been banned from use in food and supplements for human use in many European countries due to serious side effects, including permanent damage and deaths
    FDA has banned synthetic vitamin K from over-the-counter supplements because of its high toxicity
    vitamins K1 and K2 are metabolized through the lymphatic system, utilizing pancreatic enzymes and bile acids and regulated by the liver. Vitamin K3 is absorbed directly and bypasses the natural pathways and regulators.Comments from various sources(German sources thanks to Christian Schulz)Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung (translates to German Organization for Nutrition), “Referenzwerte für die Nährstoffzufuhr 2000
    The term vitamin K3 for menadione and also its use should be avoided due to considerable side effects, which distinguish the compound from actual vitamin K compoundsProf. Dr. Wolfram, Technische Universität Munich 12/14/2000
    Menadione (vitamin K3) is cheaper because it does not occur naturally. It is also burdened with considerable side effects. It is unsuitable for use in humans.Hoffmann-La Roche Corporate Health Protection 10/03/2000
    The better is always the enemy of the good. Or here: Vitamin K1 is undisputedly better than Vitamin K3.Hoffmann-La Roche Professional Services 07/30/1999
    The background, why Synkavit [a synthetic vitamin K product] was in 1969 removed from the market, was presumably in the realization that vitamin K [here: K1] is practically non toxic in comparison to the K3/K4 versions, and develops a stronger coagulant effect.Hoffmann-La Roche Professional Services 06/28/1999
    SynkavitRoche had hemolytic side effects, as we know today, so that it is assumed that at the time many newborns suffered permanent damage [ed.: there were also deaths]. This prompted the recall of the product in 1967 and instead the harmless Konakion was introduced.Mark Rosenbloom, MD, MBA, FACEP, Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University
    This particular toxicity is typically associated with formula-fed infants or those receiving synthetic vitamin K-3 (menadione) injections. Because of its toxicity, menadione is no longer used for treatment of vitamin K deficiency.Common claims made by employees of the pet food industryPet Food Industry Claim:
    “Menadione compounds are the only viable source of Vitamin K in commercial pet foods”My take on it:
    A large number of food manufacturers have already proven that this statement is patently false. Many companies have eliminated this questionable ingredient from their formulas, relying on ingredients that are naturally high in vitamin K, or adding the same, completely harmless natural supplement that is for example used to fortify commercial baby food.Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “Menadione is AAFCO approved/self-affirmed GRAS for poultry and swine at nutritionally recommended doses. K3 is in essential all poultry and swine diets. Cost is the only reason AAFCO approval was not also sought for petfood.My take on it:
    Poultry and swine are not cats and dogs – we are looking at a lifetime exposure of several weeks (poultry) to several months (swine) vs. years in cats and dogs. Further, many commercially farmed animals require constant vitamin K supplementation since their intestinal flora is completely wiped out by long-term administration of antibiotics (preventing the beneficial bacteria from producing vitamin K), which does not apply to pets in the same format. Cost is no excuse, especially not considering the profit margins made by manufacturers on pet food. As outlined here on this site itself, menadione is being removed from more and more products – what does that tell us?Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “Menadione has not be shown to create any detrimental effects at levels within 10x of recommended levels. (toxicity reports being utilized by this latest group of “activist” are not only disputed but at mega dose levels with no relevance to actual practice)”My take on it:
    I don’t know which “activists” make such claims, but I’d like to point out that I do not support the use of any amount of menadione. It has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food, and the detrimental effects are not just simply related to high levels, but also to long-term exposure to low levels. Again I have to point out we aren’t looking at livestock or lab animals just being exposed for a relatively short period of time, but what this substance can do to pets, especially their immune systems, over a period of 10-15 years or longer.Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “Menadione is utilized to prevent nutrient deficiencies and not acute situation such as Rat poisoning.”My take on it:
    This is correct, because menadione has been proven to be entirely ineffective for blood clotting, yet some manufacturers still using menadione compounds (often disguised as “vitamin K supplement”) give “aids blood clotting” as a selling point. I call that consumer deception.Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “If products were to be ranked in regards to bioactivity, of course K1 is better than K3, but if we look at application efficacy K3 is better than K1. It is a question of practicality of application.””My take on it:
    Cost vs. efficacy might be a selling point to livestock farmers, but manufacturers selling products for the pet market should realize that pet owners want to do right by their pets and keep them healthy as long as possible. In my personal opinion there is no room for the “least cost principle” in the pet food niche, especially not when many manufacturers claim to have our pets’ best interests in mind.Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “The credibility of the anti-menadione arguments are very weak.My take on it:
    Just because someone with a commercial interest in using a less costly product says my arguments are weak doesn’t make them so. I think I have listed enough accredited, scientific sources in my article that outline why it is not a bad idea to avoid menadione in a food, under the best of circumstances it is an unnecessary ingredient and under the worst it may be harmful. The fact that my sources are not written in English has nothing to do with the argument – the pet food companies make enough profit to be able to hire certified staff for translating these sources if they were really interested in learning about the other side of the argument. As it is they don’t care about anything but protecting their own interests though, and European research seems to be either touted or bashed, depending on which is more convenient in a particular argument.Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “It seems the same folks advocating no Menadione are also in favor of non-processed diets for their pets.””My take on it:
    Not necessarily. Many people simply want good quality commercial diets without unnecessary or harmful ingredients for their pets, and they have a right to be informed.Pet Food Industry Claim:
    “Dr John Suttie retired Research Prof, Univ of Wisconsin to the people in Germany who started this whole issue with Vitamin K in pet foods many years ago. He has published in excess of 225 paper on menadione, Vitamin K1, 2 and 3. In short he knows more about Vitamin K than any of us will ever want to know. When we had this problem in the early 2000’s I sent all the files and publications from Germany and he did this rebuttal to their pseudo science. We were never able to understand what the problem was with these people, but after this letter we did not hear from them again until this latest discover from this nutritional guru in California.”My take on it:On the day Dr. Suttie, or any person in favor of utilizing menadione in commercial pet food, is able to provide the favorable results of a properly conducted, independently funded, long-term study on the effect of menadione on domestic pets, I will stand down on the issue. Until then, unfortunately, I will have to continue to look at it from a “worst case scenario” point of view, just like I do in regards to synthetic preservatives, various rendered and non-rendered animal materials and other poor quality ingredients deemed appropriate for use in pet food by AAFCO.In the case of human food additives and supplements, it has to be proven that they are not harmful before they are allowed to be included, why should we be satisfied with the reverse scenario for ingredients in the food our pets eat, often for many years, and listen to someone with a vested interest telling us that there’s nothing wrong?Wouldn’t you rather buy from a company that respects your wishes than one that touts bits and pieces of regulation while conveniently leaving out others?

  • Shawna

    Just found some of the data I was stating about Dr. Schultz….  I will take his word ANY DAY over a vets..  His credentials speak for themself..  Just sayin…….

    “Professor and Chair, Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison, USA

    Dr. Ronald Schultz has held his current position since 1982. He has written many articles and published over hundreds of scientific papers on his research in immunology and infectious diseases, especially viruses of dogs, cats and cattle. He is well known among animal owners, for the canine, feline and bovine vaccine and infectious diseases studies that he has been conducting for more than 40 years. He was the First President of the American Association of Veterinary Immunologists and received the first Distinguished Veterinary Immunologist Award. He has co-written the American Animal Hospital Associations’ Canine Vaccines Guidelines for the US, the American Association of Feline Practitioners’ Feline Vaccine Guidelines for the US and the World Small Animal Veterinary Association’s Canine and Feline Vaccine Guidelines for countries around the world. He was also a member of the AVMA Feline Vaccine Associated Sarcoma Task Force. He is the founder of the International Veterinary Vaccines and Diagnostics Conference (IVVDC) and hosted its first meeting in 1997 in Madison.”  http://www.ivvdc2012.org/invited-speakers-6/prof-ron-schultz/

  • Shawna

    Yeah, my boss hunts and I’ve asked him, every year, to save them for me…  And every year he forgets (or the rack is impressive enough he keeps it)..  He is a brilliant man but ohhhh so forgetful :)…  Part of my job is “nagging” at him when he forgets things…
    :-)  He refers to me as his second wife :)…

  • Shawna

    One of the fancy Sushi restaurants here puts a large cucumber slice in their glasses of water…  That and a drop of real lemon or lime would be wonderfully refreshing and yummy!!!!! 

  • Shawna

    “Small animal” — admittedly I could be wrong but the data I pulled up indicated you specialize in one specific animal (smaller then a cat or dog).?

  • Shawna

    Dr. Ronald Schultz is the leading immunologist/pathobiologist (not a vet) in the US (more then just “popular in the media”?)…  He’s also one of only three on the World vaccination recommendation task force..  I’ve also read (but can’t find the reference now) that he also consults vaccine manufacturers.  He’s also a member of the task force that wrote the 2006 vaccine guidelines for the American Animal Hospital Association..  Which states that all core vaccines (except rabies) is KNOWN to have an efficacy of at least 5 years NOT 3 and certainly not 1..

    It is equally irritating when some mainstream vets discount the consequences of over vaccinating..  Neurosurgeon, Dr. Russell Blaylock has some very enlightening data on exactly what vaccines do to the brain…  SCARY….  And that’s just one aspect…

    I do vaccinate my dogs but I refuse to over vaccinate — I titer instead.

  • Shawna

    Garlic induces apoptosis so yes it would assist in natural cell death..  I found the below quoted article very interesting.  Hope you do too.

    “Thus, garlic consumption not only causes increased energy demand from the faster RBC turnover but also increases the production of CO, which in turn stimulates splenic erythropoiesis by an erythropoietin-independent mechanism, thus completing the sequence of feedback regulation for RBC metabolism. Being a pleiotropic gasotransmitter, CO may be a second messenger for garlic’s other physiological effects”  [link removed by moderator due to report of malicious content]

    Yes, I am aware of the additional causes you mention ;)..  My frustration comes with people being warned against even small amounts of garlic (in healthy dogs no less) but no mention of other risk factors????  This poor gal on Mercola was convinced by her vet that yearly shots were needed and we know that is just not true…. :(  My heart goes out to her!! 

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Melissa….

    I totally agree, and think it would wrong and very mean to make anyone feel bad because of what they feed. We all do the best we can. I posted yesterday that menadione was “not something a loving dog owner would feed” Aimee got a little offended, I then posted that my words were not well thought out. Sorry Aimee. Just for the record I’m not a rich guy. I have made some sacrifices for things I buy for myself.
    But I would NEVER EVER put anyone down if they did not do the same. Because I dont know there circumstance’s . I have been raving about Brother’s because it worked really well for Christo, and that makes me really happy , but if someone else feeds a different food I still want to be friends, Shawna feeds raw, she has never snubed me cause I feed kibble/canned.lol  

  • Toxed2loss

    Hey sweetie,
    We hunt, so we get ours for free. Don’t you have some nearby hunting friends? You want the current years antlers, not the ones that have been hanging out on the back side of the barn for decades. GFETE.

  • Shawna

    My crew all get Himalayan Chews and do fine with them.  I know the rescue president (and her mothter) buys them in bulk too.  I’ve never had an issue with splintering in the ones I’ve purchased from the store….  I can’t beleive they would hand out chews that would splinter — I’d be upset at that!!!!

    My crew are all toy breeds as you know..  The medium sized chews will last them several days and I haven’t had any broken teeth..  I do think that may be more common in larger and more aggressive chewers though..

    I would like to try antlers but in my area I’d be forking out clost to $100 just for the chews.  I already spend between $200 and $300 per month on food and supplements — can’t afford really expensive chews.. :(

  • Shawna

    PS — all of this data on extruding and drying killing and damaging nutrients is only proving how important real, unprocessed and undenatured food is!! :) 

    We know that synthetics are not the same as whole food nutrients as some nutrients are outright missing and those that are accounted for are isolated….

  • Shawna

    Very interesting Aimee!!

    I’m really not versed in menadione so stay out of it except to bring up not in human foods..  However, as you have pointed out — it is utilized for human consumption..

    I’m not convinced it is safe but as you have stated other foods are not safe in large doses either.  Even something as benign as water..

    PS — Skeptvet is not a good reference to use when trying to sway me :)..  I’ve gone up against him and his disciples and am NOT impressed…  YOU are a much better adversary for sure… :-)

  • melissa

    Hi John-

    Lol. I think we can agree : ) Performance wise, it did well for my dogs-Ingredient wise, not so impressive. However, as I have said before, I think each owner researches and then makes a decision about what their personal hangups(deal breakers) are, and then strive to find a food that meets those requirements in the price range they can afford. For some, Purina meets those requirements.

    I personally(at this point in time)feel that I do not want a food made with Chinese ingredients, no by products, generic unnamed meals/protein sources, or the chemical preservatives. For making that choice, I have to pay a higher price point-I live in an area where I can get my food of choice “off the shelf”, have the means to pay the price, and all is well. : ) However, not everyone has selection available, not every one has the same vision/interpretation of ingredients,etc. Its grossly unfair to tell anyone that since they feed a food with a certain ingredient, that they are not loving pet owners(or to imply it) .

    Personally I think the majority of the pets owned by the participants here are very lucky dogs-because when we know better, we do better-or at the very least we make informed decisions : ) Give that handsome Christo a smooch for me-

  • aimee

    Thanks for your input!

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Mellissa

    Truth be told , growing up my mom and dad fed purina
    to all our dogs. MY sister(not the flat coat breeder) had a GSD, Misty, that lived to 14. thats why I choose 
    to feed Christo puppy chow. He was allergic , the other dogs were not. Only after reading up on whats in dog foods have I changed my stance . Now I would not feed purina because of all the nasty things that are in it. (animal fat) dont even want to go there . to early.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Thanks!

  • Addie

    From their site: 
    Generally speaking, about 10% of the dogs that try our product experience an initial loose stool or gas that always resolves. We have never had a problem with repeated or lasting GI issues. We have been giving this product to our dogs since the beginning, and we have had no problems over this sustained period of time. 

    Most or all lactose is removed during the cooking, and cleaning and removal of whey liquid from the solids after the coagulation of the milk. So, the final product have little or no lactose to contribute towards the intollerance among dogs.

  • Addie

    No, surprisingly no stool inconsistency at all. My dog has had loose stools occasionally from bully sticks, but no issues at all from the Himalayan. I think I read somewhere that most of the lactose is removed during cooking, so it’s easier for dog’s to digest. 

  • Addie

    Yeah, they’re definitely pricey. I was hoping for that price it would last, but no such luck. My dog is the same way with the 12″ bully sticks, lol. My friends watch in awe at how quickly he finishes them off because their dogs take forever with them. Kongs definitely help keep him busy, but since he’s such an avid chewer, I’m always on the look out for a strong chew. 

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Anyone with GI problems after a Himalayan dog chew?

  • Toxed2loss

    My son’s GSDx was like that. Fresh antler sections were the only thing that lasted… About 5 days. He loves ‘em.

  • aimee

    Addie,
    Thanks for replying. The pet store by me really pushes them and I find them pricey.  Something like 20.00 -25 for the big ones. I was thinking I was the only one who didn’t have good luck with them!!  

    Mine takes about 20 min to get through a 12 inch bully and I have to hold it the whole time or she would just swallow it. I have most luck with just freezing fresh foods into Kongs.  

  • Toxed2loss

    O.k. No sweat! :-)

  • Toxed2loss

    Me too!

  • Toxed2loss

    I think that harm by any means is more than “irritating” to any animal lover, to say the least. While I can respect your compassion for the animals lost to rabies, I become angry at the senseless deaths and suffering of animals lost to vaccinosis and espeally from the rabies vaccine. I support the Rabies Challenge Fund because they aren’t against vaccinating for rabies, they are against “over vaccinating.”

    If it in fact confers immunity for 5, or 7 or 10 years, shouldn’t we find that out? Wouldn’t that the best scenario? The animal would be protected from rabies and over vaccination.

  • melissa

     HI Johnandchristo-

    I fed Purina proplan and Purina one for years-and my shihtzu made it to almost 18yrs of age-had a full set of pearly whites when she left us, never a dentistry and no other major vet visits except for one ear infection. If I were to go based on how my last dog did, I would be using it now : ) I simply changed as I wanted to feed a food with less fillers, chemicals etc-my personal preference at this point in time. I have no problems from a “success” standpoint with Purina.

  • Addie

    The himalayan chew wasn’t a hit in this house either. It didn’t splinter or anything, but the dog finished it in less than an hour. We had the Large Dog size, which is for 40-80 lbs, and he’s 50. Maybe if I went with the next size up, it might actually last? I was super excited too because he goes through bully sticks like they’re nothing, so I was really hoping for a long lasting chew. 

  • aimee

    I really don’t know what the actual reason for banning it was. I knew about the injecting newborns with it, but aI also reas about people overconsuming as SkeptVet wrote about. Maybe a combination of factors??? 

  • Addie

    Hey Toxed, can’t get email to work on my phone for some reason, so that’s why i haven’t emailed you yet. Haven’t forgot about you though ;)

  • Johnandchristo

    Aimee ….

    Its funny that you keep coming on for the lowest crappy most unhealthy brands. haha. you like purina ?
    thats a hoot. Whole grain corn , poultry by product meal, corn gluten meal , animal fat , brewers rice soybean meal, animal digest, fake coloring’s. I cant take you serious because the food you hawk is 100% crap. Please does anyone disagree? Purina is toxic waste sorry Aimee.  

  • Toxed2loss

    Aaawww aimee!! That’s so sweet!! LOL!!!

  • aimee

    Hi Toxed,

    I have to say I thought of you last night at dinner : ). Hubby asked if I wanted to put some lemon sqeeze flavor stuff in my water. The ingredietns were a who’s who of chemicals .. I thought of you : ) 

  • aimee

    Hi Mitch…

     Hope you weren’t referring to me.. I get it. : ) As I said I have respect for companies that ignore the public opinion hype and follow NRC recommendations.

     I have no concerns about feeding  my dogs a diet that contains menadione.

  • Johnandchristo

    Mitch….

    Making mc Donalds illegal not a bad idea, lets stop the profiteers in their tracks dont you agree???  

  • aimee

    Hi Hounddogmom…. yup it says Himalayan dog chew on the package.. I’d think your Bloodhounds would have more jaw strength than my lab. It just popped apart with the first munch!

    Maybe I’ll get brave and try the other one I have.

  • Kaliberknl

     I’ve been exclusively small animal.  Mainstream veterinarians usually disagree with those popular in the media.  The rabies challenge Fund is irritating to those of us who have seen cases of rabies…especially those of us who dealt directly with the rabies vaccine recall of 1988.  I’m sorry – I don’t want to be antagonistic.  I just want people to know not to be cavalier.  Hemolytic anemia is such a sad disease.

  • Marie

    I thought it was because doctors were injecting infants at like 1,000x the normal dose and killing them. Somehow this translates into ‘dangerous at minute levels ingested with food’.

    I mean, don’t get me wrong, if all things being equal between two foods I’d likely choose the one without it, but I truly do *not* understand the hysteria by some (not here, at other sites) over k3. Just not feeling it.

  • aimee

    Shawna,

    My point was the some people freak out because  menadione when injected at high does caused hemolysis and cite that as a reason that it should never be used. (low doses  by mouth as in pet food does not cause hemolysis) I was just saying garlic causes hemolysis at any dose but people don’t freak out over it : )

    IMHA …That is so sad… years ago an aquintance of mine had a cocker that developed IMHA  No trigger known of.. the breed is apparently at high risk. He did well for awhile but never could get off the drugs. Had a second episode and more immunosuppressents were added. He again responded but about 8 months later had a third episode despite being on three immune surpressents, at that point she let him go.. So sad.  

    Vaccines can trigger it as can antibiotics, antiseizure meds, tick diseases and I’m sure other things as well. It is terrible.  

  • hounddogmom12

    Really your dogs shattered the Himalayan chews? That’s impressive, the extra large size generally lasts my 70 lb. and 110 lb. bloodhounds 3 or 4 days and they’re fairly strong chewers. Were the chews you received the actual Himalayan brand or something else? I’ve seen similar products offered by other companies and they never receive as high of reviews on online shopping sites, so I’ve never tried any of the other brands.

  • Toxed2loss

    aimee,
    Sure we’ll forgive you. Just giving both sides. Yes too much water can kill you. But let’s not get extreme. The whole synthetic vs. natural debate is a valid one. Vitamin D2, ergocalciferol, is toxic, while D3, cholecalciferol, is not. There are a lot of doctors out there that still don’t know that. It’s important to bring this kind of stuff up. John said it best… We all gave our opinions, now its up to each person to decide.

    There are a lot of things out there that can harm us, are harming us, and we don’t have a choice about wether we’re exposed or not. There are things out there that are harmful and people don’t know about it until its too late. (Like the poisoned military families at Camp Le June.) I think that it’s important to give people the chance to change what they can. Sometimes thats the only way to get the industry to make a change for the better. Voting with your dollar works. :-}

  • aimee

    Shawna,

     Do you have any experience using Himalayan chews?? I was at the Backer Show and a vendor gave me some samples. I was leary of the product as it looked like a good thing to break a tooth on : ) I first tried it with my lab and she shattered it with one crunch and I fished all the sharp shards  out of her mouth. They were sharp as glass !!

    Then I gave a peice to the Crested who due to his hairless gene its pretty shy in the teeth department.. He shattered his piece as well. More fishing in pharynx.

    This year the same guy was selling at the show and I told him of my experience. He said the reason they shattered was because he gave me “seconds” so to prove his product he gave me a retail worthy piece. I have to admit I haven’t tried it yet.  

  • Mitch

     again, you don’t get it, and probably never will. Menadione is not toxic to dogs, I had a black lab that lived to be 16 years old! Yes, there was menadione in the diet. Should we make McDonalds illegal for human consumption?

  • Shawna

    I don’t mean to come off as cavalier…  However MANY vets have been using garlic for a LONG TIME without seeing heinz body as a result…  As I’ve mentioned before — well respected, Dr. Martin Goldstein calls garlic a “panacea”.. 

    Dr. Jean Dodds and immunologist Dr. Ronald Schultz discuss rabies link to hemolytic anemia on The Rabies Challenge Fund website.. 

    Is that in your own dogs or patients?  I was under the impression (looked you up when you first hit the scene) that you don’t see dogs/cats in your practice? 

  • Mitch

     The reason vets inject K1 into the bloodstream is because it can be. You can’t put K1 in a food. Yes, you can say to add leafy vegetables, but extrusion and drying does a pretty good job of killing any vitamin K that may be in the food. These studies from above come from menadione being injected, not injested for them to alkalized. Again, just another reason this is speculation.

  • aimee

    Shawna,
    I’m not well versed on Vit K stability. I figured we get most of ours through
    fresh foods. I googled Vit K and commercial processing and got hits like this
    one.

    ” However, vitamin K is often lost through commercial processing of foods……
    Vitamin K survives most cooking methods, but it may be lost when cooking foods
    over extended periods.”

    So maybe it has something to do with the extrusion and canning process??? The
    nutritionist for Weruva seemed to be saying not to use natural forms. http://www.livestrong.com/article/347382-nutritional-facts-for-vitamin-k/#ixzz1wUElOP00

    SkeptVet also has a nicely written article on Vit K3 and he wrote “is
    useful as a Vitamin K supplement in pet foods because it is more stable and
    tolerates heating better than the other forms of Vitamin K.”

    He also says that the three board certified veterinary nutritionists and and
    one board certified veterinary toxicologist he consulted when writing the
    article “all agreed that there is no evidence of any significant risk from
    menadione in commercial pet foods.”

    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2011/07/vitamin-k3-menadione-in-pet-food-is-it-safe/

    I read somewhere, as Marie did, that menadione was banned because people were
    ingesting it in large quantities for its anti cancer effects and overdosing on
    it. (This is what SkeptVet stated as well) But apparently it is still being sold for that purpose! Not sure what
    country it is coming from.

    Dr. Jonathan Wright’s ProsStay is a supplement containing high levels of vitamin C and vitamin K3 (menadione). http://www.iherb.com/Life-Enhancement-ProsStay-180-Capsules/12321?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=c

    and I found this on medscape: “VK-3, a menadione, is a synthetic, water-soluble compound used to treat VK deficiency associated with maldigestion and malabsorption syndromes; however, it is not used in newborns due to the hemolysis observed with higher doses.” http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126354-treatment

    I also found it is being used in  the US in clinical trials against cancer, topical creams and homepathics.

    So maybe only banned in supplements as people were over doing it???? I don’t know

      

  • Mitch

     Sandy, in general, unfortunately GMO’s are going to be wide spread whether they’re claiming to be “GMO free” or not. Due to cross pollination, it’s going to be very random to find non GMO ingredients. As for sweet potato’s, unless you are paying a premium, more than likely they’re coming from China. They are about 25% of the cost of domestic sweet potato’s, so I would be careful w/ any dog foods that list sweet potato as a major ingredient.

  • Kaliberknl

     After nearly three decades, I have never seen a case of hemolytic anemia secondary to vaccination.  Tick born diseases probably cause most cases.  If you ever had to endure watching a dog suffer from this disease, you would not be quite as cavalier.  Red blood cells which die naturally do not cause the same effects as red blood cells that are hemolysed. 

  • Shawna

    Let’s not forget however that the benefits of garlic FAR OUTWEIGH any consequences of consuming small amounts.  And I would agree that some red blood cells might die off with even small doses but that is natural..  Unhealthy and old red blood cells die – fact of life.  This New York Times article says red blood cells of a healthy adult human only survive 120 days before dieing and being replaced by new red blood cells.  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/02cell.html?pagewanted=all

    By the way, someone on Mercola Healthy Pets just Monday had to euthanize their 3 year old Cocker Spaniel due to hemolytic anemia vet suspects caused by vaccination.  The vaccines given were not rabies so likely not “necessary”.  :(  So sad!!!!

  • aimee

    Sigh…. I was only trying to answer your question as to why companies elect
    to include menadione into the food they produce. The group of highly esteemed
    scientists that comprise the committee on dog and cat nutrition for the NRC, the
    operating agency of the National Academy of Sciences recommends menadione be
    added to pet foods. Pet food manufactures are under absolutely no obligation to follow NRC
    recommendations but some of them elect to.

    You may think me naive but I’m sure these renowned experts in their fields
    understand very well all aspects of menadione.

    I do not have an AAFCO manuel to consult, so when I said AAFCO requires
    menadione I was repeating what was stated by Weruva “AAFCO requires us to put
    menadione in our seafood based cat food.” and Natura “The reason for Menadione’s
    presence in that formula is that the AAFCO requires the use of Menadione in any
    cat product containing greater than 25% fish on a dry matter base”.

    Mike has clarified that the actual requirement is for Vit K and that the only
    form of Vit K allowed to be added is menadione. You will have to forgive me for
    my transgression. (humbly bowing before you : )).

    YES Menadione is toxic in high doses and when injected. Many compounds that
    are beneficial to our bodies are not safe in high doses or when taken by
    alternative routes. I can safely drink pure water. However, pure water
    delivered IV instead of through my GI system can kill me! Route of
    administration matters!! Dose matters!! Heck even drinking too much water can
    kill you.

     
    Whole foods are controversial too! Kelp, your rcommended source of natural Vit K, is associated with thyroid
    disorders. Veterinary toxicologists report garlic  destroys red
    blood cells no matter what the dose, it just isn’t clinically apparent.

     I’d guess you don’t feed any
    foods that contain garlic since you said “I love my dogs and if there is even a
    shadow of a doubt about the safety of a particular ingredient it doesn’t go into
    their mouths.” The safety margin on garlic is much smaller than it is on
    menadione yet some people give it to their dogs on a routine basis.

  • Toxed2loss

    Yes, lots of that kind of thing happened. Politics hasn’t changed. :-) But Wiley was very dedicated to protecting consumers. He was never actually the Head of the FDA. And the FDA was Under the jurisdiction of powerful industry leaders. There was a lot of politics. Those that didn’t “play ball” we’re ousted. I think you’re thinking of Herbert Ley, Jr, MD. He only lasted a year. 68-69, both his predecessors & those that followed ‘retired’ to lucrative industry positions. He did not. And I was reading the ‘White-washed version.’ Previously, I’ve read the ‘expose version.’ but I couldn’t find it today. ;-)

  • Shawna

    I think Wiley was ousted, wasn’t he, for not bowing to the powers to be..  That’s what I remember but been so long I may be thinking of someone/something else.

    I have also read that several scientits have been relieved of their positions for not passing certain products..

    On a different note but similar theme — Jeffery Smith, in his book “The Seeds of Deception” discusses how the scientist working with GM products (in England) discovered the negative side and was sent packing.  And later issued a gag warrant so he could not discuss his findings…  Been a while since I read the book..  Should re-read here shortly :)

  • Toxed2loss

    I stand corrected. I reviewed the FDAs own web site and Wiley, who worked in the Dept of Chemistry, under the auspices of the Dept of Ag, and Campbell, 1927-1944, who was first appointed commissioner of the newly made Food, Drug and Insecticide Agency were pretty good guys, and managed to hold their own. But the political battle and industry influence began to make in roads shortly after that. :-(

    3 years after Campbell took office they divided his office and perview.

  • Shawna

    Himalayan chews are a type of “cheese” said to be gnawed on by field workers in the Himalayans..  So, as a cheese—albeit a VERY HARD cheese :), yes the chews would be a fermented product.  The ones I’ve been buying include cow’s milk too..

  • Shawna

    My understanding to that question is yes..  Yogurt is bacteria only and then can be limited in amounts.  Kefir is bacteria and yeast and more of them.

  • Kaliberknl

     Sorry if this is off topic but is the yak milk used in the himalayan chews fermented?  Any opinions on it?  TIA  :-)

  • Marie

    Agreed. Part of the problem is that AAFCO oversees ALL animal feed- not just dogs and cats- so when pet owners demand better practices in *pet food*, the cattlemen/ranchers get their panties in a bunch over the higher cost imposed on them on an already marginaly profitable business (at least on their end). In order to solve this problem we need to have separation of pets and livestock so pet owners don’t get blocked by the meat industry, two interests that shouldn’t have much to do with each other…

  • Kaliberknl

     Are there more or better organisms in kefir vs yogurt?

  • Shawna

    Home made kefir is super easy..  Basically start with fresh milk and add kefir grains (can be bought online) then let sit on kitchen counter til soured.. 

    Yogurt is a bit harder as it has to be temperature controlled but is also doable for those at home enthusiasts :)..  My parents make home made yogurt — much tarter then anything that can be purchased at the store.

    I’ve made kombutcha tea and make (and LOVE) fermented veggies but haven’t tried kefir yet..  My fave veggie recipe is cabbage, kohlrabi, a green apple and garlic.  Dogs LOVE it too..

  • Shawna

    Yes — fermented goat milk with a small amount of added honey and cinnamon.  It is also curdled as they were not able to sell it otherwise.

  • Kaliberknl

     Is Kefir difficult to make?

  • Kaliberknl

     Isn’t Answers goat milk for dogs a fermented  product?

  • Shawna

    Yeah, my friend said she couldn’t get her usual source for about 4 to 6 weeks but then production began again and she stocked up.  She makes home made kefir for her dogs with the raw milk so bought a bunch and stuck in the freezer.. :)

  • Shawna

    I think the FDA started with good intentions but was hyjacked along the way.. 

    The current president of the FDA is a former Monsanto lawyer :).. 

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I can buy it straight from a farm in Texas (there’s a place a few miles from me) or buy retail Answers brand goat milk (for the dogs).

  • Toxed2loss

    Unfortunately I’m hearing horror stores out of California, now, over raw milk. Here’s one from this last March: http://www.naturalnews.com/035208_James_Stewart_torture_county_jail.html

  • Toxed2loss

    And check out this article from Dr. Mercola, on the problems with “organic” food, for some examples of how the industry works the system to their advantage. It’s one of the reasons I say “know your source, & minimally processed” The dog food industry isn’t much different…

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/20/kastel-organic-foods.aspx

  • Toxed2loss

    Many people believe that the job of the FDA is to protect the American public. That has never been their mission. The agency was created to protect the interests of manufacturers. And in fact is still staffed by CEOs of major corporations.

    Check out Dr. Mercola’s diagram on industry infiltration into government:

    http://media.mercola.com/ImageServer/public/2012/january/study1-big.jpg

  • Johnandchristo

    HI Toxed, Shawna….

    I’ll post more later, I”m late to work!!! But Thanks you guys are the best! See ya later.

  • Shawna

    In California you can buy raw milk right from the grocery store.  In Colorado it is legal to buy raw milk from the farmer.  Not sure about other States.

  • Shawna

    True Marie ~~ It’s unfortunate when that regulation became more about industries money then about the publics health…..  The FDA has become a major joke!!

  • Toxed2loss

    And this:

    “Toxicology. 2003 Sep 30;191(2-3):77-88.

    Protection of cells from menadione-induced apoptosis by inhibition of lipid peroxidation.
    Chiou TJ, Chu ST, Tzeng WF.
    Source
    Section of Medical Oncology, Department of Medicine, Veterans General Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan ROC. [email protected]
    Abstract
    Menadione is a commonly used compound that causes oxidative stress. We investigated the influence of lipid peroxidation on the apoptotic response of mouse myogenic C2C12 cells following menadione-induced oxidative stress. The presence of hypodiploid cells and phosphatidylserine translocation were assayed to detect apoptotic cells. Menadione at 10-40 micro M induced cell apoptosis. Menadione at dose of 80 micro M induced both apoptosis and necrosis. At a 160 micro M dosage, menadione induced cell necrosis. Caspase 3 activation is required for menadione-induced apoptosis. Incubation of cells with 40 micro M menadione resulted in the depletion of cellular glutathione and increased lipid peroxidation.”

    Notice the size of the amount necessary to induce cell death? 40 micro M (moles)! That’s infinitesimally small, to those of us who aren’t biochemists or Toxicologist.

  • Shawna

    “Erect an agency to really (Food wise) protect animals” —— AND humans :)  Lord know the FDA has fallen by the wayside… :(

  • Toxed2loss

    And from the Journal of Free Radical Biology Medicine,

    “Menadione triggers cell death through ROS-dependent mechanisms involving PARP activation without requiring apoptosis ” Gabriel Loor, et al

    Which concluded, “These studies suggest that multiple redundant cell death pathways are activated by menadione…”

  • Shawna

    I’ve always wondered why natural vitamin K stability is an issue in dog food but not in human foods?  Or do they use menadione in human foods?  I heard in Europe its use is banned….  That says something in and of itself if you ask me :).

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi John,
    Don’t apologize to anybody. This is from OSHA:

    NAME: Menadione

    SYNONYM(s): Diesel Exhaust Component; 2-Methyl-1,4-Naphthalenedione; Kativ-G; 2-Methyl-1,4-Naphthoquinone; Menaphthone;Panosine

    IMIS: M158

    CAS: 58-27-5

    NIOSH: RTECS QL9100000; 51314

    Notice it’s synthesized from

    DIESEL EXHAUST & NAPTHALENE!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Johnandchristo

    Toxed …..

    Me , lol they would not have accepted me if I begged on hands and knees!!!!    But Toxed on a serious note
    I’m a little confused what is the deal with menadione?
    Its bad for dogs right? Or do I need to start saying sorry to a few people?

  • Toxed2loss

    You a cop? Easy fellow, just asking’! Let me ask around… Maybe I know a guy, who knows a guy….just saying’… Ya can’t be too careful!

  • Johnandchristo

    Pssssst

    anybody know where I can score some boot leg milk? ;)

  • Toxed2loss

    Yes, and if people really knew what was in pasteurized milk, the “legal” kind, they’d gag!

  • Marie

    Raiding people over raw milk is a perfect example of government overstepping it’s bounds. Things like that are why I’m not a fan of sweeping regulations.

    It’s *milk*, for God’s sake, not heroin. It’s a food – but since we demand regulation of the food industry (good thing in general ) that permission we give government gets used to justify regulating EVERYTHING to do with food, including raiding farmers that sell milk that hasn’t been heated up long enough.

  • Toxed2loss

    True Marie! The one that springs to my mind is “raw milk.” people are actually being raided, and arrested around the company for the sale of raw milk.

    The science shows that correctly handled raw milk has a much lower bacteria count, and far more nutrition than pasteurized. Yet, many state governments classify it as a health hazard. even the CDC warns against it. Yet we have far more cases of food poisoning from fast food, and thats not classified as a health hazard! Go figure!

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Hi Everyone,

    I hope I can help shed some light regarding the menadione issue being discussed here.

    First of all, like it or not, AAFCO is an important player when it comes to the nutritional content of pet foods.

    Much of its standard dog and cat nutritional profile data on which virtually every dog and cat food is engineered is based upon the work of the National Research Council (NRC) of the National Academies of Science.

    Unfortunately, without AAFCO, there are no standards in the pet food industry. It’s all we’ve got. So, we must honor and rely upon its published recommendations.

    OK, now, it’s on to menadione.

    Vitamin K is not on either of AAFCO’s listed nutritional profiles (for adult or growth) as a requirement for any dog food.

    However, it’s presence IS a requirement for cats – when a recipe contains more than 25% fish on na dry matter basis.

    What’s more, and complicating the issue, vitamin K3 (also known as menadione) is the only version of vitamin K accepted by AAFCO for use in ANY pet food.

    Hope this helps clear up this issue.

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Marie…..

     No argument here, but still wouldn’t be nice if we could erect an agency to really(Food wise) protect animals? Think of all they do for us. K9s seeing eye dogs companions. ect and so on. Both points made by you and I can be true in some respects, but what I meant (however poorly articulated lol) was big money influences laws and policy. Tobacco used to advertise that it was healthy to smoke. asbestos manufacturers knew long in advance that asbestos was deadly . seat belts were not by law mandatory when I was a kid. The thing with menadione is it is illegal for human use. but can still be used for dogs. I think that is sad. But I’m done arguing about it. I just will not use it. to each his/her own.     

  • Marie

    The government is slow in regards to pet health because animals are legally property. They have no de facto rights in this country and quite frankly it’s amazing that there’s even an organization like AAFCO around.

    And, conversely, I could agrue that just because something is illegal doesn’t make it dangerous.

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Hounddogmom12…..

    You have it right. People think because something is legal, it must be safe. Time and time again people or pets must die, before the government takes action.
    many things that are legal are unsafe. weed killers, alcohol , msg, artificial sweeteners, bug sprays, you name it. the government is very slow to act, it takes casualty’s before anything is done to protect the public. So just imagine how slow the government acts when concerning pets. I cant argue any more with the menadione pushers, alas…. they are woefully behind the 8 ball. When we as a people stop questioning the powers that be we become sheep, and as history tells us that can have catastrophic effects on human lives.

  • hounddogmom12

    Aimee,

    You still haven’t proved a point for the fact that the AAFCO does NOT require the addition of menadione in either cat food or dog food. So and so may recommend it, but it’s not required. You seem hold the AAFCO to a very high esteem and believe that adhering to their standards is a necessity for pet health, but it appears that they can’t think the addition of menadione is too necessary or they would specifically require the addition of menadione and not allow of for the addition of safer, less controversial, and more assimilable forms of vitamin k. Also, when you’re reading all this “scientific evidence”, not just about menadione but about any controversial items in pet food, you may want to start considering the motives behind the people conducting the studies. Do they have some affiliation with big name company? Do you really think they are concerned about the well-being of your pets? Do they even take into consideration the evidence of the negative effects of an ingredient before conducting the study or is their sole purpose just to prove beneficial properties of the ingredient (some harmful ingredients may have beneficial properties, but oftentimes their negative aspects outweigh their good qualities)? Knowing that a pet food company would opt for a synthetic ingredient rather than a natural ingredient is bad enough (that just screams profit), but it goes beyond horrible with ingredients like Menadione. Menadione is known to be highly toxic in high doses. Hazard information
    regarding menadione lists “carcinogenic effects” and states “the
    substance is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes. Repeated
    or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs
    damage.” (http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Menadione sodium bisulfite-9924604) So even if it’s considered safe at the levels present in pet foods why add something you know is capable of producing these harmful effects when you could add something that produces no harmful effects?! You may be willing to risk the health and your animals by feeding foods with the addition of controversial ingredients, but I am not. I love my dogs and if there is even a shadow of a doubt about the safety of a particular ingredient it doesn’t go into their mouths. Even if I don’t believe the evidence against the ingredient or am not fully convinced about the potential harmful effects of a controversial ingredient – I still don’t give it to them because I take no chances when it comes to the health of my animals. And the funny thing is, no fresh whole foods seem to be controversial…

  • Johnandchristo

    thalidomide was given by many loving moms and dads.
    everyone knows how that turned out. blind faith in giant company’s ? You can assume if you like. many many people question k3, I’ll play it safe and take that as fair warning. my train of reason does not believe in axiom’s very easily, when dealing with pet foods.( I’m extra skeptical ). Aimee…. I’m  sure you are a loving pet owner. Scrutinize what big company’s say is science, they have warped the truth many many times in the past, money is what these company’s care for not pets. Menadione is not safe. None of the top brands have it in them. only the cheap super market brands do. Why? they also have other pretty gross stuff in them too. But that for a different topic.   

  • Jess

     menadione sodium bisulfite is a synthetic type of vitamin K and I would never feed any dog food with this in it. To much out there proving it is really bad. vitamin K is in many ingredients and isn’t needed if the ingredient list is formed correctly.

  • aimee

    Aww Gee Johnandchristo…. that means since there is  menadione in the food I feed I’m not a loving owner….guess that leaves me to be a very loving owner : )  

  • aimee

     This was a reply from Weruva “In designing our formulas, we have worked with a nutritionist who has served on several AAFCO boards. When specifically discussing menadione with her, she responded via email, “A couple of websites, that do not seem to have much science behind them, are trying to pressure companies to not use vitamin K3. So for fish items where there is clear evidence that vitamin K is important to the nutrition of the animal, they want you to put the animal at risk. The only form of vitamin K allowed in pet foods in menadione sodium bisulfite complex. So the K1 and K2 besides not being stable are not approved sources. Some companies have caved, but I strongly recommend that you don’t, especially when you are selling fish items.”  

    http://www.traciehotchner.com/blog/533/why-is-menadione-in-weruva/

    Maybe there is concern for stability when using natural sources???

    From NRC ” Diets containing a high proportion of fish should have menadione added”

  • Marie

    :( Purina has some great marketing, I’ll give them that.

    I used to think that Sheba was the best cat food you could buy because it had a fancy logo, lol!

  • hounddogmom12

    Yeah…I used to think Beneful was real vegetables. :(

  • Marie

    And to answer your very last question- Because not everyone is of the opinion menadione is dangerous, and the fact that petfood’s only regulating body endores it’s use doesn’t help quell that.

  • Marie

    I don’t disagree. Why not?

    Well some brands won’t because they’re not premium and their particular consumer base thinks that the pretty bright green kibbles in Beneful are real vegetables.

    They make their purchasing decisions one way (“Hey, that commercial said it was healthy!”) and we make ours another way (“Down with corn, wheat, soy, and menadoine! RAWR!!!! D:<") and there's a niche out there for any company to fill for any type of consumer.

  • hounddogmom12

    That’s my point though. The use of menadione can be avoided. So, although there are differing opinions (obviously) of how dangerous it is, shouldn’t it be avoided at all costs if there’s even the slightest evidence that suggests it could be harmful for pets? Alfalfa, kelp, and egg yolks are all good sources of vitamin k…why not just avoid the controversy altogether by throwing in some kelp and forgetting the menadione?

  • Marie

    Menadione addition can be avoided if the food’s recipe calls for ingredients that just naturally contain vitamin K. The only *synthetic* vitamin K that AAFCO approves of to be added in pet food is menadione. Some brands manage to get around menadione by changing the recipe.

  • Marie

    Aimee is correct. Fish-based cat foods will need supplemental Vitamin K(unless the recipe calls for the addition of something like kelp that contains natural K) and, as far as my own research goes, that is the only approved form of vitamin K that can be added per AAFCO. A few heavily fish-based Weruva recipes contained them at some point. Although I don’t feed a lot of fish for that reason, I’d much rather avoid vitamin K deficiency through the use of the minimum affective amount menadione. I’m also not entirely convinced menadione is deadly.

    That being said, I DO consider menadione a hallmark of a cheap, lower quality food. So in that respect, I tend to avoid it’s consumption by my cats.

  • hounddogmom12

    Aimee,

    Vitamin K is a nutrient requirement in cat food, not menadione. As is seen with dog food, only low quality cat foods utilize menadione as their source of vitamin k. I checked Orijen, The Honest Kitchen, and Blue Buffalo’s cat formulas and none contain menadione (even their fish-based formulas are menadione free). You say high quality pet food companies are not using menadione because they are “bending to public opinion” but obviously vitamin k requirements can be met without adding menadione (as was demonstrated with the cat food example), so technically they are still following AAFCO specifications. And personally, menadione included, I am not a fan of synthetic vitamins period. My dogs don’t get “vitamin anything” (only exception is natural vitamin e) – they just get a wide variety of fresh, high-quality, unprocessed, species-appropriate foods. No lab can replicate nature and all living things should derive as many nutrients as possible from whole foods sources.

  • Johnandchristo

    Aimee….

    wrong, not safe. not what a loving pet owner would feed.. just saying. 

  • aimee

    Hounddogmom12,

    Menadione is required by AAFCO in cat food with high fish content.

    NRC recommends that menadione be added to both dog and cat food.

    IMHO companies add menadione because they are following the science instead of bending to public opinion. As you pointed out it would be cheaper for them not to add it. I have to say I respect companies for doing that! ( ducking for cover:) )

  • Johnandchristo

    Mitch , I get it. I’m not selling dog food I’m feeding dog food. Again I would never feed any thing with K3.
    This web site is far from fear mongering, but then I would expect a remark like that from someone who is backed into a corner. You cant put a spin on it, I have read the pro’s and the cons concerning k3, I dont feel posturing to be fact. No disrespect but the rest of the ingredients are more like horse or goat food than dog food. You assumed that I fed potato based grain free you were wrong, your also wrong if you assume I dont understand that dogs are carnivores. Corn, wheat, sorghum, wheat bran, corn gluten meal, barley rice bran?????? are you for real???? You feed that tto your dogs if you want, I would never ever feed that to mine. Maybe if I get a pet rabbit, but only if you take out the menadione.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Ash and moisture are part of the 100.

  • Toxed2loss

    There has been a real effort to quietly introduce GM potatoes into the market for years (more than a decade). Green peace lead a movement to keep GM potatoes out of fast food products in the late 90s. But there are a number of varieties currently out there. Not AMFLORA. Their glycoalkaloid levels are too high. I did read this in BASF’s “Scientific Backgrounf on AMFLORA Potatoes,” pg 14

    “Potato pulp and juice can only be processed in animal feed.”
    ——-
    Every now and then you read about where a project surfaces, like the following one in Idaho.

    http://www.capitalpress.com/idaho/JO-Fortuna-110211
    “Posted: Thursday, November 10, 2011 10:00 AM
      
    Idaho growers eye BASF’s new GM potato
    Blight-resistant spud will be introduced in Europe
    By JOHN O’CONNELL
    Capital Press
    More than a decade has passed since Jim Tiede was among the growers caught up in a debacle over the first U.S. genetically modified potato variety.
    Even today, the American Falls, Idaho, farmer copes with the fallout of planting Monsanto’s GM potato New Leaf, as processors still ask him to submit a certificate proving his fields are testing free of its patented gene.
    Now Tiede, chairman of the Idaho Potato Commission, will be an observer as Europe reacts to a new GM table spud, Fortuna, developed by German-based BASF Plant Science.”

    A few years back, the potato industry was less eager to develop an insect resistant variety, due to the concurrent release of imidaclorprid, a neonicatinoid. However, with the discovery that this class of insecticides are at the heart of the Colony Collapse Disorder that’s devastated the honey bee industry, there’s a resurgence of interest in BT toxin, as well as alien plant lectin gene insertion.

    AMFLORA is being grown in Europe. So it’s conceivable that there is contamination. Tracking that kind of information down would be hugely time consuming. So, it’s easier to rely on raw bones or antlers as “chew toys” and dehydrated liver or kibble without potato (etc) as treats. :-)

    And you’re right in your hypothetical situation. There can be a lot of contaminants that they don’t actually test for. Buy local, from know dealers, preferably organic or chemical free, minimally processed. Know your source and partner with them to improve the product. ;-)

    Organically raised cattle DO NOT eat GM. There have been a few loopholes,that have allowed some GM in certain supplements, etc. And “Organic” doesn’t guarantee “good animal husbandry.” So, know your source…

    The good news, sweet potatoes and yams are not currently being GM’d, to my knowledge. I have not seen it in the literature.

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Hounddogmom,
    I don’t honestly know why they add it. Sabine gave a short answer, that it was “a cheap substitute…” to “help clotting factor.” in her article that I posted below.

    I can only speculate that in many cases, they may think what they are doing is beneficial. They probably believe the rep that sold them the additive. Surprisingly, I’ve found that to be true of many medical practitioners, as well as other product manufacturers. It’s time consuming to run down significant data on all the additives and processes (supplements & medications for medical Practitioners). Many times they take their “trades people” at their word. Those same people were assured by someone else, that it was fine. The misinformation is perpetuated.

    So, bottom line, they have been lead to believe it was helpful. I’ve found providing fact based evidence is the best way to encourage manufacturers to improve their products. :-}

  • Kaliberknl

     What is wrong with my math:  100 – (42 + 32) = 26 not 5% carb?

  • hounddogmom12

    Toxed2loss,

    Something I have always wondered is, does menadione serve some other purpose…maybe a preservative or flavor enhancer? I just don’t understand why low quality dog food manufacturers add it when it’s been proven to be harmful, many high quality companies do fine without adding it to their food, and it’s not even required by the aafco. It seems like since it’s not necessary dog food companies would just forget about it all together and save that much money from not having to buy it.

  • Shawna

    That is great Mitch..  However in raw feeding circles, it is recommended that protein provide the most calories in a dog food not fat.  There is only two or three foods that I would recommend or use myself because the fat is too high in others.  In this new formulation of 32% fat and 42% protein —- fat supplies significantly more calories then protein…  Are you marketing this food to endurance dogs and athletes (who do have an increased requirement for fat calories)?

  • Toxed2loss

    Mitch,
    Here are the facts from an Animal Nutritionist on Vitamin K3,  or menadione, from the following site.

    http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione

    “Menadione (Vitamin K3),
    by Sabine Contreras (degreed in animal nutrition)

    One of the more obscure ingredients found in many pet foods are menadione derivatives – in the form of menadione sodium bisulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite, menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfate, menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfite or menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite, often listed as “a source of vitamin K activity” or “vitamin K supplement”. Unless otherwise noted, these compounds are summarily referred to as “menadione” in this article to make it easier to read.

    Watch out:
    Some manufacturers leave out the “menadione” part of the above chemical names in their ingredient lists (e.g. you see only “dimethylprimidinol sulfate” listed instead of “menadione dimethylprimidinol sulfate”), and menadione does not only occur in dry and canned foods, but edible chew toys, supplements and treats as well.

    Thoroughly research any item with an ingredient list that claims a “source of vitamin K”, “source of vitamin K activity” or “vitamin K” in parentheses and contact the manufacturer if you have any questions.

    What is it?

    Menadione, also known as vitamin K3, is a synthetic version of vitamin K. The natural occuring compounds are vitamin K1 (Phylloquinone, from plant sources) and Vitamin K2 (Menaquinone, synthesized by bacteria in the digestive tract and absorbed by the body). Technically menadione isn’t even a vitamin, but a precursor that is converted in the body after ingestion. Natural vitamin K is fat soluble, while menadione derivatives (pure menadione can not be processed) are water soluble and bypass the natural pathway of utilization by the body.

    Why is it added to pet food?

    Menadione is added as an inexpensive vitamin K supplement in commercial foods. The common statement as to why it is added is “to help with blood clotting”, yet it is scientifically proven that the effectivity of menadione on blood clotting is inferior. Even veterinarians will administer vitamin K1 as an antidote to dogs who have for example ingested rat poison, which causes internal bleeding.

    Manufacturers who use menadione in their products also like to claim that it is “more stable” than natural vitamin K and has “more nutritional value”. Not a single one of them has acknowledged the scientifically proven side effects of this substance.

    It is simple to come to a conclusion about the truth in these statements when you consider that

    not all pet food companies add menadione to their foods and dogs have eaten these products for years without developing deficiencies
    the National Research Council was not able to demonstrate a dietary requirement for vitamin K in dogs during tests when natural ingredients were fed and
    fish meals, liver and green plant supplements (e.g. alfalfa, kelp and other seaweed, nettle leaf, blue-green algae, spirulina) are rich sources of natural vitamin K.
    Why is it bad?

    As a non-native speaker (German is my native language), it has been difficult for me to compose this article in English, since I had to translate most of my information from literature originally written in German. My search for relevant, unbiased sources in English was not very successful, with exception of some obscure references and texts that provided some information but do not include all the facts. There were also many articles written by authors who didn’t even have the basic knowledge to differentiate between vtiamin K1, K2 and K3.

    Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. It is incomplete, since my English medical terminology is lacking and I was simply not able to translate the more complicated scientific phrases into proper English:

    causes cytotoxicity in liver cells
    causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions
    considerably weakens the immune system
    possible mutagenic effects
    damages the natural vitamin K cycle
    has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested)
    causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses
    disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis
    is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K
    builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives
    causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes
    causes allergic reactions and eczema
    References:
    Bässler, K.-H. et al. (1997): Vitamin-Lexikon für Ärzte, Apotheker und Ernährungswissenschaftler. ISBN: 3437211404
    DGE (2000): Referenzwerte für die Nährstoffzufuhr. ISBN: 3829571143
    Elstner, E. F. (1990): Der Sauerstoff. ISBN: 3411140011
    Friedrich, W. (1987): Handbuch der Vitamine. ISBN: 3541120118
    Hoehne, Dr. med. vet. Eberhard (1985): Vitamine. ISBN: 3873470284
    Things to consider

    Menadione (e.g. menadione sodium bisulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite or menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite)

    has never been researched or specifically approved for long term use, such as in pet food
    has been banned from use in food and supplements for human use in many European countries due to serious side effects, including permanent damage and deaths
    FDA has banned synthetic vitamin K from over-the-counter supplements because of its high toxicity
    vitamins K1 and K2 are metabolized through the lymphatic system, utilizing pancreatic enzymes and bile acids and regulated by the liver. Vitamin K3 is absorbed directly and bypasses the natural pathways and regulators.

    Comments from various sources

    (German sources thanks to Christian Schulz)
    Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung (translates to German Organization for Nutrition), “Referenzwerte für die Nährstoffzufuhr 2000
    The term vitamin K3 for menadione and also its use should be avoided due to considerable side effects, which distinguish the compound from actual vitamin K compounds

    Prof. Dr. Wolfram, Technische Universität Munich 12/14/2000
    Menadione (vitamin K3) is cheaper because it does not occur naturally. It is also burdened with considerable side effects. It is unsuitable for use in humans.

    Hoffmann-La Roche Corporate Health Protection 10/03/2000
    The better is always the enemy of the good. Or here: Vitamin K1 is undisputedly better than Vitamin K3.

    Hoffmann-La Roche Professional Services 07/30/1999
    The background, why Synkavit [a synthetic vitamin K product] was in 1969 removed from the market, was presumably in the realization that vitamin K [here: K1] is practically non toxic in comparison to the K3/K4 versions, and develops a stronger coagulant effect.

    Hoffmann-La Roche Professional Services 06/28/1999
    SynkavitRoche had hemolytic side effects, as we know today, so that it is assumed that at the time many newborns suffered permanent damage [ed.: there were also deaths]. This prompted the recall of the product in 1967 and instead the harmless Konakion was introduced.

    Mark Rosenbloom, MD, MBA, FACEP, Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University
    This particular toxicity is typically associated with formula-fed infants or those receiving synthetic vitamin K-3 (menadione) injections. Because of its toxicity, menadione is no longer used for treatment of vitamin K deficiency.”

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I thought you heard of it already!!

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Just wondering about it in general…how much of the Amflora/GM potato is around us?  Hypothetical of course, but these treats making dogs sick could have this GM potato superglue in it and they wouldn’t test for it.  Just test for the usual suspects – melamine, aflatoxin, other toxins, not this “food product”? They haven’t modified sweet potato or yams yet, have they?  So organic beef do not eat GM feeds, right?

  • Mitch

    In response to everyone on the grain free diets. If you look at my previous post, I stand firm that they are not providing a purpose unless they are higher in fats and proteins. This is why we’re coming out with a raw meat diet that’s a 42% protein and 32% fat in about two weeks. No grains, no potato’s. It will be less than 5% carbohydrates.

  • Mitch

     Johnandchristo,

    You obviously don’t get it. It never enters the dogs system as menadione, it enters it as vitamin K as the dogs stomach alkalinizes the menadione into vitamin K. It’s the only way to get vitamin K into a dog food through extrusion. If it went into the dogs system as vitamin K, then yes there would be problems, and people wouldn’t do it, however, there is not a problem with it and I encourage you to read this article:

    http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Default.aspx?pageid=5306&id=2372&terms=menadione

    THESE are FACTS by a PHD Nutritionist. Not a fear mongering website, facts. Here is proof that it is not bad unless given in doses of over 1000 times the recommended amount. Remember, people can die of drinking too much water. Does that mean it’s toxic? Absolutely not.

  • Shawna

    Oh that’s just GREAT news!!! :(

    Thanks for posting this Sandy!!

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Sandy!
    Nice article. :-) which aspects do you want me to dig into, exactly?

    Did you want additional citations for the points made in the article? Do you want the skinny on the GMO reproducing the pesticide in the gut? Do you want the citations for the high amount of free glutamate (an addictive excitatory neurotoxin) in potato waste water and derived starches? The info on the solanine and other toxins in potatoes (which they haven’t researched way effects the gene modification will have on that)? GFETE Once we start peeling the onion, it just gets worse. Incidentally, they’re GM potatoes in the US now for livestock feed, and human consumtion. Sign any and all petitions for GMO labeling!

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Toxed,

    Maybe you can dig deeper into this one…Amflora potatoes?

    http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/risky-gm-potato-believed-to-be-in-some-pet-products.html

  • Shawna

    Mitch ~~ I agree with the others…  Grain free foods are a definite improvement (even if exibiting the same guaranteed analysis) as those grain inclusive foods. 

    HOWEVER, I’m not pro potato either.

    Grains are higher in omega 6 inflammatory efa’s then even corn fed meat.  Grains have antinutrients like phytates (I just posted a research paper that states “cereal grains” bind with zinc (and other minerals) and prevent their absorption.  Grains have the most devestating lectins of cooked foods (rice being the least problematic).  Some grains can significantly skew the guaranteed protien amount.

    I would (and do) choose products with potato any day over products with grain — I do incldue my own raw meats in to up the protein content.  However, given the option I choose grain and potato free over foods with either.  I rotate however so do include some foods with potato in the rotation.

  • Dog Food Ninja

    I don’t believe white potatoes are a huge improvement over grains. But, having no gluten makes them a tad better. But part of what you’re missing here is that most grain-free foods ARE higher in fat and protein. The above food doesn’t offend me so much because it contains grains, but rather that it contains a disproportionate quantity of carbs vs fat and protein. Same deal with nutro and science diet’s grain free foods. They both have precious little meat. I’d feed my dogs Canidae’s single grain formula which is made with rice but contains 32% protein before I fed them nutro’s grain free bag of white potatoes which only contains 23% protein.

  • Johnandchristo

    Mitch….

    Hear are some more little tid bits about menadion,
    The FDA has banned the use of it. Menadion causes abnormal breakdown of red bloodcells. It causes toxic reactions in liver cells. It weakens the immune system. It induces allergic reactions. Are these all lies, really Mitch?? Speaking of allergic reaction, the ten grains and gluten(an inferior dog food protein imposter) well they do as well. Sorry but am not buying your argument. Its not conclusive or or persuasive, and I respectfully think the kibble is one of the worst on the market today.  

  • Toxed2loss

    Mitch,
    You said this, “Dogs don’t digest a dog food and decipher grain vs. potatos, the decipher carbohydrates, fats, and proteins.”

    Not a true statement, and here are some citations as to why…

    “Their digestive tracts are short, and simple as opposed to the complex system of digestion required by herbivores in order to digest and assimilate indigestible plant materials, and dogs and cats need to consume preformed amino acids from their food. Their digestive tract contains specific enzymes such as protease for digesting protein, and lipase for digesting fat in the right proportions for a meat based diet, the diet they evolved to eat.” 
    http://www.petsynergy.com/overview.html

    “The biological value of a protein is a measure of that protein’s ability to supply amino acids, particularly the 10 essential amino acids, and to supply these amino acids in the proper proportions.>>>> In general, animal proteins (meat, by-product meal) have higher biological value than vegetable proteins (soybean meal, corn gluten meal).” Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine, http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/sa/clin/cp_handouts/Nutrition_Adult_Dog.pdf

    “Remember, though, that grains provide mostly carbohydrates and only limited amino acid (protein) profiles. Extra carbohydrate intake, above the immediate needs of the dog (which occurs often with grain-based diets) prompts internal enzyme factors to store that extra carbohydrate (sugar) as fat.”  T. J. Dunn, Jr., DVM, http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_ protein_in_the_diet

    “Grains tend to be better sources of carbohydrate, a quick source of energy. Animal-derived tissues are more easily digestible and have a more complete array of amino acids than do grains. http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_protein_in_ the_diet?page=2

    Not all proteins are created equal, and some are better for pets than others. Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is termed biological value. Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard by which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value.  http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459#answer_3

    AND in regards to grains harming canines…

    “On the other hand, after vigorous running, significant anemia (reduction of hemoglobin) appeared in the VP (vegetable protein) diet dogs … In dogs of AP (animal protein diet), those changes in lipid pattern caused by exercise and sports anemia did not appear significantly. ”  Comparison of effects of vegetable protein diet and animal protein diet on the initiation of anemia during vigorous physical training (sports anemia) in dogs and rats, AuthorsYamada T, et al., J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1987 Apr;33(2):129-49.

    “For very sick animals, quality is sometimes an even more important factor, because their detoxification processes are not working well. The lighter the load on the body, the better. If your cat or dog is ill, it’s even more important to make sure you know every ingredient going into his mouth – and the simpler food is, the more likely it is that there are no artificial, toxic or highly processed foods involved.” Real Foods For Healthy Dogs and Cats, by Dr. Karen Becker and Beth Taylor 

    “‘The confusion, even blindness, by researchers and regulatory agencies (however well intentioned) is apparent in the following incredible contradiction by authors with DVM, PhD and specialty board certification in veterinary internal medicine and nutrition credentials: “These protocols (The authors are discussing AAFCO studies) were designed to assure that pet foods would not be harmful to the animal and would support the proposed life stage. These protocols were not designed to examine nutritional relationships to long-term health or disease prevention.” (G F Collings, et al, Veterinary Forum Oct, 1992, p34)” In other words a food could cause disease and destroy long term health yet at the same time “not be harmful” and be “100% complete”! So after a pet has been fed the “proven” food for a period of time equal to the duration of an AAFCO study (26 weeks), all bets are off. The “100% complete and balanced” food may then be literally poisoning the animal with the blessings of the entire academic, professional, scientific, governmental and industrial pet food establishment.’ ”
    (Wysong, 1993)”

    “Sometimes the health of our animals is abruptly compromised by the forced intake of unsuitable foodstuffs. Gastric dilatation volvulus affects 60, 000 dogs per year in the USA. (Burrows and Ignaszewski, 1990) More commonly the problems are of a slow insidious nature thus the dietary connection is less obvious. Feeding in an optimum wild environment will be of sufficient quantity , quality , and frequency as to provide for the animal’s needs. Both the chemical and physical components must be recognised as two sides of the same coin. You cannot or should not have one without the other. ” Lonsdale, http://www.rawmeatybones.com/PFIC.html

    Here are ten reasons why veterinarians and dog health experts consider carbohydrates harmful for your dog.

    Lowers Metabolism: Dogs’ digestive tracts are short and designed for quickly digesting animal protein and fat, but not carbohydrates. Complex carbohydrate like those found in grains and starches are very difficult to digest and absorb. As your dog’s body tries to digest complex carbs, his metabolism becomes less efficient and his immune system is similarly weakened.

    Improper Use of Teeth Structure: Dogs’ teeth have been adapted for the sharp grabbing of food rather than grinding and crushing against grain. Think gnawing through a piece of meat versus chewing through a piece of toast. In addition, dogs lack the saliva enzymes necessary to effectively break down carbohydrates, which therefore tax the metabolic system and render it less efficient.

    Digestion Problems: If you ever watched a dog eat, you know that he eats in large mouthfuls. Often large bits of grains can pass through the intestines undigested, which can cause elimination problems.

    Slowed Digestion: Grains, unlike fruits and vegetables, take a long time to digest. The longer the undigested material remains in the colon, the increased risk of gastrointestinal problems.

    Increased Hunger: Grains and complex carbohydrates cause a release of insulin in the body. If the dog is not getting enough exercise and is eating too many carbohydrates, an increase in hunger is likely to occur.

    Large Intestine Problems: The slow process by which grains are digested may cause irritation and spasms to occur in the large intestine.

    Inefficient Use of Energy: While carbohydrates provide energy through its breakdown of sugars, fat and protein offer better energy for stamina, endurance and satiety.

    Improper Mineral Absorption: Grains and starches contain substances called phytates, which can prevent the absorption of key minerals like, calcium, magnesium, zinc, iron and iodine.

    Kidney Problems: Because grains are gradually digested, they may also tax the kidneys which over time, can result in kidney problems.

    Weight Gain: Carbohydrates like grains and starches metabolize into glucose, which is another name for sugar. If the sugar, which is needed for immediate energy needs is not utilized, the extra glucose will get stored as fat, which leads to weight gain.
    http://www.k9criticalcare.com/news/29/Ten-Reasons-Why-Carbohydrates-Hurt-Your-Dog.html

    AND to really understand why corn, wheat and soy, the “plant protein sources in pet food” hurt our pets you need to read this really entertaining paper by DogtorJ!

    “Here is the important thing. The other “foods’ that coat (and subsequently damage) the intestinal villi…and the only ones that do this along with casein…are gluten, soy, and corn. These are the big four or the “four horsemen of the apocalypse” as I now like to call them. And it is man and animals against casein, gluten, soy, and corn as the title implies. The strongest evidence of their potential harm is found in the fact that all of these food elements are used to make adhesives…powerful adhesives. Casein, gluten and soy are the strongest, stickiest, and most powerfully antigenic glycoproteins while corn is a slightly less powerful but nonetheless very significant player (especially the corn that we have recently created). They put cars together with the super-glues manufactured from soy protein. They make waterproof industrial adhesives from casein and gluten that are used for numerous purposes ranging from the glue on stamps and envelopes to putting metal together. But, the “best” they can do with corn glues is to put cardboard boxes together. So, we see why the FDA and veterinary lists of food allergens are what they are: in order, the (primary) food allergens are cow’s milk, wheat, soy, and corn. (We will discuss “secondary” allergens in a moment.) Soy could become number one…if that were possible. Fortunately, there are too many soy opponents who will keep this from happening.

    Now, here is what should really grab attention of veterinarians and (hopefully) not let go. Talk about hindsight being 20:20. When I graduated from vet school 26 years ago, dog foods were corn-based. (Keep in mind that corn has been modified to “death” over the past 25 years. Ever hear the term “hybrid corn“? Do you remember the Starlink /CRY9C corn scare a while back and how Taco Bell took the fall for that one? You only heard the beginning of that story.) The bottom line is that corn was bad enough and was, in retrospect, causing so many of the problems that we saw back then, especially in the “trouble breeds”: the German shepherd, Poodle, Cocker, Shar Pei, some giant breeds, and the Irish setter. (Remember when there were Irish setters around? We’ll be getting to that soon.)

    But…but…when we started adding wheat to the diet of pets about ten years later, we effectively landed the single-most devastating blow to veterinary health that we had struck since adding a milk coating to the puppy and kitten chows. Don’t let that last part slip past you, either. The cow’s milk coating we had on the growth formulas was a huge problem that we are just now seeing the vital importance of. In a recent medical study, researchers in human medicine found that our children that ingested cow’s milk in the first five days of life had a staggering 40-50 times higher rate of asthma, type-1 diabetes, and juvenile-onset rheumatoid arthritis when compared to the general population. Oh, no! How could that be? You need to remember what is going on in the gut and immune system of the newborn during the first five days of life as well as understand the concept of “lectins”- antibody-sized glycoproteins derived from the big four- to really grasp the importance of this cataclysmic mistake. Much of this particular issue is outside of the time restraints of this presentation but I think you will find that this “fun fact” fits right into the grand scheme of things. We will discuss lectins a bit later, however.”Food Intolerance- Man and Animals versus Gluten, Casein, Soy, and Corn
    or How We Won the Battle of “Helm’s Deep” by Dogtor J., ©2005 DogtorJ.com,  http://dogtorj.tripod.com/id23.html

    Source of protein does matter. It matters because food sources aren’t isolated components, they are complex, synergistic compounds that both interact with our bodies and within themselves.

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Mitch…….

    I agree,thats why I feed my Dog grain and white potato free. Where I dont agree however, is that dogs need or should get any grain.Corn is the worst,potato’s are also really bad,and sorry mitch but menadione is very bad and should never be included in a dogs diet. I do agree protein and fat should be high, but from meat not from plant based boosters. I  believe in a species appropriate diet, therefore would not include corn , glutens wheat, rice ect. FYI any potato based grain free food IMO is second rate. My dog only gets first rate, no potato rice corn oats barley wheat or gluten(real crap)and NEVER menadione
    IMO it is poison, if you dont agree tell me would give to your children? I think not nor I, the rest is just semantics dont you agree?  

  • Mitch

    Johnandchristo,

    Grain free is a great concept, however, it is largely a deceiving label. Dogs don’t digest a dog food and decipher grain vs. potatos, the decipher carbohydrates, fats, and proteins. However, many dog food companies have deceived people into believing that a grain free diet with potato’s is better than a diet w/ rice. The problem is, the majority of the time the amount of fat and protein in the diets do not change. Potato’s are actually higher in sugar which is the real problem with the diet in the first place. So, if you’re in the grain free camp, it needs to be a diet that is pretty high in fats and proteins in order to make a difference a 25-15 is simply no better w/ or w/out grains.
    As far as menadione is concerned, this is a really a sad misconception. This lie was started when someone read a German physicians desk reference that was about 40 years old that said that menadione can cause kidney and liver damage in infants. The problem is, they stopped reading it right there without reading what/why it happened. It’s put in the food to provide vitamin K for dogs. How does this happen? Well, the dog eats the food with the menadione in it, it’s then alkalinized in the dogs stomach and is then turned into vitamin K to help clot blood when the dog is cut in order to keep then from bleeding out.
    In the physicians desk reference where the fear inciting individual read this it states that the doctor injected the menadione directly into the blood stream. Well, guess what? when it’s injected into the blood stream, it doesn’t have the opportunity to be alkalinized, so it never transformed into vitamin K and then caused organ damage. The problem is, people often believe anything they hear when there is not real proof, but it’s different, so they run with it. Menadione is put in probably 90% of the dog foods in the United States and there is not an epidemic of dogs dying from kidney and liver failure. This is because the dogs never have menadione coursing through their veins, they have Vitamin K. Same way with grains in dog foods. If you want a real difference in foods, then I suggest cutting the carbs down to about 20% or less, which is what we’re currently about to debut with a new raw diet.

  • melissa

    Johnandchristo-

    Don’t get me wrong though : ) My guys/gals eat a combination and if they COULD eat Acana grain free 100 percent(fat content issues) they would-

  • Johnandchristo

    HI Melissa…..

    I agree.  Never again will I feed Christo anything with menadione nor gluten, and yeah grain . I,m saying for me, my humble opinion lol.

  • melissa

     Johnandchristo-

    I am not from the grain free best camp(lol) and this has way to0 many grains for me : ) The amount of grains may be “over lookable” for a bag or two in the rotation, but the gluten and menadione are huge deal breakers for me-

  • Johnandchristo

    Hi Mitch Felderhoff……..

    I was wondering why do they add menadione sodium biulfite ? And corn gluten, is that to boost the protein?
    I counted ten grains in the food. thats seems a little high. I only asking because I’m in the grain free camp.
    I was wondering what are some of the reasons you would give food like this to a carnivore? Please dont 
    take my questions the wrong way. just wondering. 

  • Mitch Felderhoff

    Mike,

    I work with Muenster and would like to make a quick reply.
    First- This is our original formula that you have rated and it has not changed in the 13 years that we have been manufacturing the product. We have kept it the same because our results have been incredible regardless of the fact that it has corn and wheat in it. As you said, as long as it comes from a quality source, and it does, they should not be considered toxins. We have been buying our corn and wheat from our local farmers for 80 years this month.

    Second- We have since changed our puppy, adult, and senior foods to be corn, soy, and wheat free. This was done in April of 2011. They also now include fruits, vegetables, L-Carnitine, glucosamine, chondroitin, and prebiotics (previda). We do not believe in using probiotics in dog food right now as we have not found one that can survive extrusion. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but the ones we have tested do not survive. We will not put an ingredient in a dog food if we do not feel it can add value to our product. I tried looking for a way to contact you directly, but have not been able to. We appreciate your efforts to educate pet owners on animal nutrition.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1332728607 Omar D. Plumey

    Thanks.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Hi Omar,

    Provided they’re from a quality source, corn and wheat shouldn’t be considered toxins. They’re simply of a lower nutritional value to a dog than other ingredients.

    Hence, only a 3-star rating.

    Please be sure to read my article about corn – which, by the way, applies to most all cereal grains, too.

    Hope this helps.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1332728607 Omar D. Plumey

    Don’t understand how you can recommend a good with corn as the second ingredient. Plus all the wheat.