Brothers Complete Grain Free (Dry)

Gordon, don’t you have anything better to do with your time, than come to this site and attack Richard? IT IS REALLY GETTING OLD AND NO ONE WANTS TO READ YOUR MEAN SPIRITED REMARKS ANYMORE. Why don’t you find something else to do with your self. You like potatoes? GREAT! Feed them to your dogs all day if you want. Whatever trips your trigger. But trust me, everyone is tired of your posts, and your attacks on Richard. And the way you think that your opinion is the ONLY correct one! Funny, but despite your attacks EVERYONE seems to be taking Richard’s side. You really should find another hobby!

Okay, I’m a bit confused now – the argument started with potatoes and has seemed to end with lecturing Richard on how he speaks as a businessman.

Quite frankly, I find Richard to be honest and straightforward, something that one rarely sees in business nowadays. I know it’s ‘unconventional’, but I wasn’t aware honesty and willingness to discuss his product in such depth is so unconventional as to be deemed unprofessional. I would rather do business with that sort of transparency, and if I lived in Florida, I would be visiting his store. 

And you know what? I won’t do it undercover to try to catch him saying something. Personally Gordon, I think you simply cannot believe that someone in the pet food industry can actually care about pet health, and your responses to Richard are clearly bias in that regard. It’s one thing to be skeptical, but it’s now obvious you’re arguing just to argue and you really seem to be deliberately trying to get him to lash out at you in frustration so you can hold it against him later. 

Yes, Richard is selling a product. But out of ALL the representatives of other pet food companies I’ve seen post to this site, HE is the ONLY one that has bothered to continue posting, engage others in debate, and contribute to some very fascinating discussions. I think that says something about his character, and I feel as though you dismiss all of that too easily…because he makes a profit. Richard Darlington isn’t Purina, he isn’t Proctor and Gamble. He’s got a small operation and his goal is to produce the best dry dog food possible. We both agree that raw is best – but people are LAZY. They hardly prepare meals for themselves, let alone their dog. I applaud him for trying to do what’s best for pet nutrition WHILE making money, which ISN’T evil by the way.

I’m betting Richard’s tongue is bleeding right now. I know mine is.

Mike S I made some comments vs Gordan a few months ago that were out of line and regret them now.I will never get mean spirited on this site ever again.I do have a problem with the attacks that are going on from Gordan to Richard.I know that Richard can defend himself but this is getting really old.Do you agree?It just sounds so personal with qoutes like “heard from the downlow” whatever that means.I know that Gordan will rip me for this post but I feel I have to express my feelings on this debate.Richard has IMO always been available on a number of dog food subjects with no mean spirited retorts.He never bashes other foods but does promote Brothers which is fine with me.I tried Brothers but switched because my dogs stool was to hard so I don’t have a vested motive in all of this.The Gordan vs Richard thing just seems personal from Gordans post and very mean.Mike S please let me know if I am out of line with this post.I may be the only one feeling this way.Gordan I don’t wish to get involved with you on this subject so give your keypad a rest and save it for Richard.I think this whole thing is about a potato.

Hi Gordon…..

I’ve been following this debate, I was wondering which kibbles do you think are the best and why. thanks in advance, i’m quite terse in comparison to you guys.

Richard’s response:-

Gordon Your comment about me that you heard on the “down low” is truly unworthy of you, or anyone for that matter. If you come to my store and ask my opinion of a particular kibble or what I think is the best kibble then I would assume you want an honest answer and if that answer is that I find a particular kibble wanting because it has grain, potato, lack of enzymes, lack of effective probiotics or any other reason. or combination of reasons, then I will point that out to my customer, in an effort to use my experience and knowledge to help them. I have a substantial bit of experience that I’m willing to share and I do explain the differences in the kibbles to my customers so they can make their own decision. Did your source on the “down low” inform you of that as well? As it turns out Brothers IS one of the few I can recommend but those recommendations are based on facts and the individual dog’s needs – not sales considerations. For you to suggest otherwise, having never visited the store, or knowing me on any meaningful level is, once again, not really worthy of you and does not really qualify as an exchange of information. My family has invested a great deal in a genuine effort to remedy the problems we observed in thousands of our customers dogs in our store over the years by designing a food that was as good as we could make it; and which, by the way, has been resolving those problems very successfully for our customers dogs – what part of that are you having trouble with? Are you upset that raw isn’t the only food that can nourish a dog or resolve a health problem?I’ll address your comments one paragraph at a time – first on the potato paragraph:You said,  “* Actually, potatoes are something wolves in the wild have indulged in, in rare to occasional cases, and depending on the region. Potatoes are nutrient dense albeit with usually a high GI. And that also varies. Also there are experts like Dr. Bruce Syme that would beg to differ on the fact that some seeds are actually ingested by wild dogs in the wild.”While the occasional wolf “may” have eaten a raw potato (although where he might have found it 100,000 years ago I can’t imagine) that really has little to do with the quality of potatoes that actually make their way into dog food, and are cooked, which is a very different story. Cooked potatoes have a glycemic index from 80 to 100 while white sugar is about 65 and peas are about 40. So when you are figuring out the percentage of Carbs in a dog food it seems prudent to take into account that all Carbs are NOT created equal. Surely the body will react differently to a pea than it will to a potato. So, while Dr Mike cannot go into that kind of detail in these reviews, I do think that the educated consumer would be wise to take into account the source of the carbs and not just lump them into one big (negative) category. Didn’t you mention that wolves ate berries, etc. in the wild?White or Russet potatoes are in the nightshade family and must be kept in a cool place (55 to 65 degrees preferably) then cooked, peeled, and eaten fresh to prevent the toxin SOLANINE from developing or being ingested. The following info on Solanine is found on MedLine Plus site at:http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medline…
Poisonous Ingredient
Solanine (very toxic even in small amounts)
Where Found
The poison is found throughout the plant, but especially in green potatoes and new sprouts. Never eat potatoes that are spoiled or green below the skin. Always throw away the sprouts.
While you personally may buy nice fresh potatoes, pluck off any new shoots, and even peel them before eating, let’s not pretend that the dog food industry does. The potatoes they use are all too often the potatoes that were rejected from the human food chain because they were old, spoiling, and growing sprouts. These reject potatoes are transported and eventually stored in hot silos and bins, where the toxic conditions worsen, until finally being ground up and added to the dog food. Now are you going to compare a kibble that has 25 to 50% of these potatoes in their formula to a kibble that doesn’t have any?Regarding your wolf eating a raw potato…Regarding your wolf eating a raw potato…Following is a quote from Dr Ben Balzar regarding the Paleolithic diet and the use of RAW potatoes on his site at: http://www.earth360.com/diet_p… are all toxic when raw- there is no doubt about this- it is a fact that no competent source would dispute- they can be extremely dangerous and it is important never to eat them raw or undercooked. These toxins include enzyme blockers, lectins and other types. I will talk about them in detail later as they are very important.I guess those wolves that ate the raw potatoes didn’t feel too good later, which is probably why they really don’t eat potatoes in the wild now – unless they want to get sick.LECTINS: Potatoes are a large source of Lectins which damage the intestinal wall and can lead to leaky gut.http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html“Lectins are hardy proteins that do not break down easily. They are resistant to stomach acid and digestive enzymes.Lectins may bind to the gut wall and damage the gut lining, are not altered by digestive enzymes, and may alter gut permeability and pass through the gut into general circulation. Lectins can cause alterations in gut function that may be related to colitis, Crohn’s Disease, Celiac-Sprue, IBS and gut permeability.Lectin damage to the gut wall may allow other non-lectin proteins to cross undigested into general circulation and cause allergic reactions,…”In addition to all the facts above (versus opinions) I also have accumulated a substantial amount of empirical evidence in observing the effects of different diets in thousands of dogs over the years that confirms that generally dogs do much better when they are not eating potatoes.

Richard’s response:-

Gordon

It does not follow that EVERY kibble contravenes the evolutionary diet. I think that any kibble that includes grains and potatoes (ESPECIALLY the grain and potatoes that find their way into dog food) definitely contravenes the evolutionary diet.

However, if the kibble includes a high percentage of meat and fat in a healthy proportion, and carbs that are mostly complex, as well as vitamins, minerals, digestive enzymes, prebiotics, and probiotics then I think it is not only possible to claim that a kibble could be similar in benefit to the a raw diet but in many cases (given the practical problem that most people don’t know how to balance the raw diet correctly) it is very likely superior over the long term.

I have observed hundreds of our customers feed raw over the years and frankly almost all of them eventually run into trouble with it. Do I think that a beautifully balanced and varied raw diet along with lots of probiotics and possibly digestive enzymes is extremely beneficial if you are able to devote enough time to it and understand how to balance it? – absolutely! Do I think that there is more than one person in a hundred or a thousand who can manage that long term? Not in my experience. I have found that a combination of raw with a superior kibble is the best “practical” solution.

I have infinitely more real world experience with people feeding raw than you do – and while I admire your zeal – I know from observing thousands of dog owners how very few are really able to do what is necessary to feed  raw effectively over the long term. We finally resorted to recommending half raw and half Brothers to blend the advantages of both. Unfortunately the “all or nothing” stance usually ends up heavily weighted on the nothing side.

I can tell you unequivocally that Brothers IS superior to almost every other kibble out there because I have been intimately involved in what goes into Brothers, as well as other kibbles, and why, and I have the benefit of an amazing wealth of knowledge from a Ph.D animal nutritionist with 30 years experience in research and formulating dog food. When you, or anyone else, states that the 5 star foods are all about the same then I know you do not really understand all that is involved. That you still think that a kibble cannot be made to closely provide nutritional support that is close to raw means you are not keeping up with the industry. It’s not meant to be a criticism – you certainly don’t have the incentive to understand the intricacies of the different kibbles that I have, but it doesn’t change the reality – there can be, and are, substantial differences between them.

I know it’s hard to believe that a kibble might be superior because the manufacturer makes that claim – I totally get that and consequently don’t blame anyone for being skeptical. But in all honestly I have not seen you express any interest in trying to understand WHY I claim that Brothers is superior. I, on the other hand, have studied extensively why raw is beneficial, as well as the claims made by other kibble manufacturers, and the dog food manufacturing process in general. You seem to have dismissed the POSSIBILITY that someone actually has come along and is not only trying to make the best kibble possible – but might be succeeding – without investigating it. I know I haven’t written a book (yet) like the honorable Dr Lonsdale but I’m very available for anyone interested.

What about the 99% or more of dog owners who will never feed raw? Wouldn’t it be beneficial to all those dogs if there were a really good kibble available to them? I can assure you Gordon that I am every bit as sincere in my efforts to help dogs, and their owners, as you are. You are providing for one group and I for another.

Hi Toxed…..

I wish I’d said that, your response, by far out classed mine. happy new year.

Thanks Michelle and Jubilee knows it to lol.We are very lucky humans to have such great doggies.By the way,are you clear on the human grade chicken meal thing?? Jeez lol

Hi Richard, I sent you the pics. I made sure to add the extra d this time.lol

Bob K,

For real dude, Richard said exactly that – the chicken used to make the chicken meal IS human grade, but the resulting chicken meal MADE from that human grade chicken is NOT due to legality. You can’t buy chicken meal in any grocery store because chicken meal is not meant for human consumption – period. Richard acknowledges this – and goes the extra mile to  make sure to purchase chicken meal made from only chicken approved for human consumption.

Mike P

I see that patch on Jubilee. I have repeatedly seen those kind of discolorations on dogs go away once they are eating better food.

Jubilee is looking very good – she has a very engaging smile.

Thanks Mike S you computer geek…it worked!!! YAY

hi

Now to get my name back lol

Mike P

I guess that would depend on how much change you wanted in the stool. You could always mix the first few meal at 25% Allergy and 75% White meat and then adjust from there. Adding a 5 lb bag to a 25 lb bag would be 16.6% to 84.4% ratio.

To add pictures go up to the DISQUS logo just above and set up a profile. Then when you want to imbed a photo at the bottom of a post you just click below on the “+ Image” sign and choose the photo you want from your desktop or wherever.

Hey Mike P

Good to hear from you. Hope you’ve had a good Holiday so far.

First, about the hard poop – in the wild many animals have poop that tends toward the hard side, as dogs on a raw diet tend to do. As long as the dog can poop without straining then it’s actually healthy. It’s usually a positive sign that there is a very healthy and active colony of beneficial bacteria in the colon. 

The healthier the colony of beneficial bacteria in the colon is, the healthier Jubilee is going to be. The good bacteria maintains the health and thickness of the mucosal lining which helps prevent a “leaky gut” condition where contents of the colon gain access to the blood stream causing no end of problems, including systemic Candida if there is a Candida overgrowth condition. Since 80% of her immune system is generated in the mucosal lining, the healthier her colon is, the stronger her immune system will be. As ironic as it may seem for the colon to be the foundation of a healthy body – there it is – another of life’s little ironies.

I think everyone has become used to stools that are too soft due to feeding our dogs kibble that is full of grain and/or potato, as well as lacking in proper bacterial action (which helps pull the moisture out of the stool while it is in transit and return it to the body as it should) and we think a soft stool is the healthy norm.  

The firmer stool also helps clean the colon walls. Normally I would think that too loose a stool, if it persists, is indicative of a problem whereas a firm stool is a positive sign as long as the dog has no trouble passing it.

However, that being said, if you would like Jubilee to have a slightly softer stool then you can accomplish it by adding a little of the Brothers Allergy Formula, which is Turkey and egg, to the Red meat, White meat, or Fish formula. 

The Allergy formula does not have a prebiotic in it and the other three Brothers formulas do. The prebiotic “feeds” the “encapsulated” probiotics that are in all the formulas (once they activate inside the dog’s colon) to create a healthy, robust colony of beneficial bacteria, that is probably responsible for causing a firm stool as a byproduct of its function. So just add some Allergy formula to one of the other formulas to get the poop consistency you want. 

Dr Mike has always stood apart from most people in his position by continually exhibiting a willingness to learn, evolve, and improve DFA as his knowledge and experience have dictated over time. DFA has become the leading dog food analysis site on the web as a result of that, I believe, and rightfully so. As more and more plausible and factual input, and empirical evidence concerning the effects of grain and potatoes on dogs, comes to light and is accumulated over time I’m sure he will know what to do and when to do it. In the meantime you can accumulate your experience with a grain and potato free diet to add to the growing store of empirical knowledge.

Here’s a picture of my son Aaron’s healthy little Chinese Crested who’s got firm poops too. The two on the left were taken when Aaron used to trim him a bit. I’ve also attached a couple photos of him now that Aaron hasn’t cut his hair for a couple months. We all prefer him with the “abominable snowman” look.

BobK you make an excellent point about all dog food and  meat meals.

Meant meanness.  : )

Mary lou….

I cede, its not in my nature to be mean, but I dont like it when I see others being antisocial

Bob K,
Richard didn’t say his chicken meal “is human grade.” he said that it’s manufactured from chicken’s that met the criteria to be processed for human consumption… Just like those tidy Saran wrap and styrofoam packages of breasts, drums and thighs are no longer a chicken. They are a “chicken product.” the product must be manufactured from stock that meets certain criteria. At some point, both the package of chicken leg quarters and the chicken meal had to start as an actual chicken. The chickens themselves are what is graded, BEFORE they are processed in any way… That is when they are graded. During the grading process, which has several stages, culls are removed and redirected. Dead, dying diseased are repurposed… Fertilizer and soil amendments in more conscientious facilities, livestock and pet food in less conscientious facilities. What Richard is assuring you is that he has made sure that he is using only the best quality chicken meal, derived from livestock that was graded PRIOR to processing as fit for human consumption. He was not saying that the chicken meal was, just that the chickens were free of disease and freshly killed, not rotting or putrid… When they were processed into meal. I hope that helps…