Before Grain Dog Food (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★★★

Before Grain dry dog food gets the Advisor’s top rating of 5 stars.

The Before Grain Dog Food product line includes 4 kibbles, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Before Grain Pork Dog Food
  • Before Grain Buffalo Dog Food
  • Before Grain Salmon Dog Food
  • Before Grain Chicken Dog Food

Before Grain Buffalo dry dog food was selected to represent the others in the line for this review.

Before Grain Buffalo

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 36% | Fat = 17% | Carbs = 39%

Ingredients: Buffalo deboned, chicken meal, potato dehydrated,turkey meal, chicken fat(preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of vitamin E),sweet potato dehydrated, natural chicken & pork flavor, dried egg product, yeast culture, blueberry dried, organic alfalfa, salt, sodium phosphate, salmon oil, choline chloride, Yucca schidigera extract, zinc amino acid complex, chicory root, marigold extract, rosemary extract, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, iron amino acid complex, vitamin E supplement, manganese amino acid complex, vitamin A supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, copper amino acid complex, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin D3, niacin, lecithin, riboflavin supplement, biotin, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, pyridoxine hydrochloride, cobalt amino acid complex, folic acid, thiamine mononitrate, sodium selenite

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis32%15%NA
Dry Matter Basis36%17%39%
Calorie Weighted Basis31%35%34%

The first ingredient in this dog food is buffalo. Although it is a quality item, raw buffalo contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The second ingredient is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The third item is dried potatoes, a dehydrated potato product usually made from by-products of a food processing plant. This item is equal to corn in calorie content yet possibly with more protein.

The fourth item is turkey meal. Like chicken meal, turkey meal is another high protein meat concentrate.

The fifth ingredient includes chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The sixth ingredient is dehydrated sweet potato. Sweet potatoes are a good source of complex carbohydrates in a dog food. They are naturally rich in fiber, beta carotene and other healthy nutrients.

After the natural chicken and pork flavor, we find dried egg product, a dehydrated form of shell-free eggs. Quality can vary significantly. Lower grade egg product can even come from commercial hatcheries — from eggs that have failed to hatch.

In any case, eggs are easy to digest and have an exceptionally high biological value.

The ninth ingredient is yeast culture. Although yeast culture is high in B-vitamins and protein, it can also be used as a probiotic to aid in digestion.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions

First, the salmon oil. Salmon oil is naturally rich in the prized EPA and DHA type of omega-3 fatty acids. These two high quality fats boast the highest bio-availability to dogs and humans.

Depending on its level of freshness and purity, salmon oil should be considered a commendable addition.

Next, the manufacturer appears to have applied friendly bacteria to the surface of the kibble after cooking. These special probiotics are used to enhance a dog’s digestive and immune functions.

Thirdly, chicory root is naturally rich in a substance called inulin… a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

And lastly, this food also contains chelated mineralsminerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Before Grain Dry Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Before Grain appears to be an above-average good dog food.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 36%, a fat level of 17% and estimated carbohydrates of about 39%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 36% and a mean fat level of 17%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 39% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 47%.

Above-average protein. Near-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Free of any plant-based protein boosters, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a generous amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Before Grain is a grain-free dry dog food using a generous amount of named meats as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

Those looking for a wet product from the same company may wish to visit our review of Before Grain canned dog food.

A Final Word

This review is designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food. However, our rating system is not intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyzed this product, please be sure to read our article, “The Problem with Dog Food Reviews

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt consult a veterinarian for help.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

02/08/2010 Original review
09/13/2010 Review updated
05/16/2011 Review updated
08/21/2011 Review updated (added chicken and pork flavor)
04/25/2012 Last Update

Dog Food Advisor IconThe Dog Food Advisor publishes independent reviews to help pet owners make better choices when shopping for dog food.


  • LMD

    No sorry needed! I feel (as I’m sure the community does) that your two cents are worth quite a bit. I was going to add the gmo factor in my post anyways, but it already seemed a little wordy. I do have a question for you not related to this topic or this thread…What is your level of knowledge of chelating minerals? While I assume they are favorable, I have read some interesting things to the contrary. Mostly that they are attached to soy. Is this the case? If so, would a food (say NV, since I use it) that touts no soy, being doing this, or would they really mean no soy? Maybe I should ask them, but I’m not entirely sure I know what I’m talking about. Anyone feel free to pipe in…

  • Shawna

    LOL Richard :)

    You don’t have to view, read or research what I post.  I just want to put it out there for anyone interested :) .  I know how busy you are :-)

  • Shawna

    Potatoes are GMO?  Really?  I didn’t know that..  I know there was plans of GMO rice but no idea they started modifying potatos…..  Ughhhh

  • Toxed2loss

    Corn isn’t sprayed with just round-up… That was the intension… The genetic modifications have created a weaker plant that requires more, toxic insecticides, more frequently, and the weeds are becoming round-up resistant due to pollen transfer. They now must spray with atrazine, dicamba, imidichlor, Metolachlor & fipronil, in addition to the round-up.

    Re: corn causing villi damage… I don’t need a study; it happened to me. I now can’t eat corn products at all without dramatic, immediate adverse reactions. Studies aren’t as important as first hand observations.

    I’ve had a lot of experiences where doctors have screamed at me, “That can’t happen!” They were screaming it while watching it happen. The literature (based on research) didn’t support my adverse event. Consequently, I learned very quickly, that scientific research is extremely limited, bordering on willful ignorance in many cases. Scientist, and the people who pay them are looking for specific things. They do not fund “exhaustive” studies. They are set up to answer specific questions and to obtain a “yes” answer or you don’t get any more funding. I learned that last bit from my children who both worked in the field of biology starting in their teens. My daughter is now a Ph.D. Entomologist. I am an active member of the Union of Concerned Scientists. These practices are rampant in all fields of scientific research. Those are the realities.

  • Toxed2loss

    Just hopped over from mercola… He reports 86% of corn, 93% of canola and cotton are GMO. I’ve read else where that 96% of soy is GMO. I’ve also read higher numbers on corn’s % GMO, but can’t remember the source right now. His article is worth the read. He includes a table of health harm studies on animals that have eaten GMO plants, i.e. Lung damage, cancer, mortality, low birth weights, reproductive disorders, organ disruptions- kidney, liver, heart & spleen, etc.

    Potatoes are also a GMO crop. Just another reason to avoid them.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Shawna

    Your homework assignments are never ending. LOL :)

  • Shawna

    LOL Richard :)

    Dogtor J also has some great information on Zonulin and leaky gut.  He also discusses lectins and their connection to autoimmune diseases :)..

  • Shawna

    LMD ~~ I agree with you and Aimee.  Corn, when processed, is digestible.  Others might say, if it has to be processed then its not good.  Again I disagree.  Veggies have to be processed to make them digestible but they are a good food to include.

    But, I have issues with corn besides those you have addressed.

    1.  Corn is the most genetically modified crop in the nation.  And you can likely be fairly confident that feed corn is GMO.  If corn is added to the food we get a double whammy.  The chicken or beef in the food ate GM corn and now we add more GM corn. 

    2.  On top of being genetically changed corn is heavily sprayed with toxic pesticide Roundup.

    3.  Aimee, I believe, disagrees with this statment..  Corn is one of four foods that can damage the little hairs in the intestines that absorb the nutrients from the food we eat – they are called villi.  If the villi are damaged we don’t digest our nutrients and can become malnourished.  Dogtor J has some great info on his website  http://dogtorj.com/

    4.  In higher quality foods this wouldn’t be an issue but as you state, higher quality foods don’t use corn.  Lower quality foods often use the protein in corn to up the overall protein in the food (corn gluten meal).  Although corn is digestible the amino acids that get digested are not well utilized by the body making it a poor protein source.

    Sorry :0)  Had to add my two cents :)

  • Shawna

    No, I didn’t see that.  My first reaction was — dang, must be over feeding..  But, then I thought about my dogs.  The male foster dog in the house is a SLOW eater.  He doesn’t take a half hour but he’d be hounded by 7 other dogs if he did.  Doesn’t matter what the meal is (raw, various kibbles) he eats slow.  I actually throw out food (kibble, peas etc) to keep the girls preoccupied while he finishes :)

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Shawna

    I watched this presentation and it was very impressive and educational. WOW! Nothing like the real experiences and observations from a practioner with 16 years of Neuro-feedback experience – plus references to scientific studies and data for a well rounded picture.

    It was interesting to me that the most severe neurological damage was observed in vegetarians and  Vegans. 

    It also describes how Glutin produces Zonulin which regulates intestinal permeability and is another cause of “Leaky Gut” from gluten grains. Science is finally catching up to what we “empirically oriented individuals” have long suspected.

    You certainly are a wealth of information. If you’re secretly trying to turn me into an amateur nutritionist I think it’s working.

  • LMD

    Aimee,
    I aplogize. I was directing my response towards you initially, then it turned into a monster post on steroids, that really not applicable to what you initially stated. Sorry about that.

  • LMD

    Aimee,
    Thanks for replying to my comments. I feel that any dietary change can be cause to have concern. I think, just like in people, all things can be argued from a given perspective with good data to back. (I’m sure others will disagree) Corn is not a tragic addition to any kibble. I assume this is your take as well. It is digestable when cooked. All the proof I need for that, like you said, is when my dogs get into the neighbors deer feeder, and then I have whole corn poo.
    There are 2 issues with products that add corn (in my opinion).
    1. Corn, just like everything, needs to be rotated. It can and does cause allergies, and the mechanism is the same as over using a animal protein source. So you bought the chicken with corn bag…next you rotate to lamb with corn…you see where I’m going? If it’s the base for your diet rotation, you can expect it will begin to cause issues.
    Furthermore, if you’re a rotation fan, you can change the nutrient profile by changing the carb source/protein source/brand. This negates feeding excess or not enough of a given nutrient.
    2. I’m extremely picky with my kibble choices. Having said that, I cannot find one to suit my needs with corn. As it seems, kibble are either very high quality ingredients, or very low. There doesn’t seem to be a middle. I feed grain free, but I’m not opposed to grain. I just simply have not been able to find a kibble that fits my needs that has grain included. I want high protein and fat, low carbs. This would mean that a manufacturer would need a smaller amount of corn than what is generally found. I have looked at Natures Logic, which is grain inclusive and high in protein and moderately high in fat, but it still doesn’t have corn. Also, all the profiles of their kibbles differ, making it unappealing for use in my rotation.

    As far as obesity in dogs, I think owners are largely to blame. I’ve often found that in our instant gratification society, we tend to make things happen instead of waiting for them. This applies to food as well. For humans and dogs. ”I went on a diet and didn’t lose 40 lb in 2 weeks…I QUIT.” “Fido seems to be a little thin, I think I’ll double his food.”
    These are things I hear (maybe a little overstated) but people don’t realize that whether you need to lose or gain weight, as well as our dogs, it needs to occur slowly. You may not see change tomorrow morning when you get up. I cannot tell you how often I see this behavior in my neighbors dog food feeding tendancies. They are on a constant diet or fattening up process. I on the other hand, tailor daily, based on activity and assesment of current body condition. The same as I do with myself. If I ate a 200 calorie excess, then I better do something to expend it, or expect the scale to go from .4 to .6 the next day.
    I’m rambling, I’m done with this post. lol  

  • sandy

    21% protein/10% fat Natural Balance LID Sweet Potato and Fish

    34%  protein/15% fat BB Wilderness

    The foster pug I had 10/2010 was normal sized, skinny waste, 16 or 18 pounds, no extra fat pads, and only 4 years old.  I visited his home last month and he now looks like a pig.  From overhead, he is twice as wide as he was with a layer of fat like a corndog at the state fair. I asked what they were feeding him.  NB LID Sweet Potato and Fish - 1 cup a day.  While he was here, he was eating BB Wilderness Salmon, 1 cup a day.

    I’m going to blame the high carb in the food and not because I read studies.  Just from experience with actual living animals over the past 2.5 years fostering 100+ dogs.

  • aimee

    I saw that. IMOHO I think there probably are confounding variables at play but did you see the “watches the dog eat for over 1/2 hr a day” connection! Brooke downs her food in about 12 seconds.. I’d have to feed her a lot of food to watch a 1/2 hour show and sure as shooting she’d be obese!

  • sandy

    YumYumYum…(hopefully a picture will post)

  • aimee

    Mike,
    I don’t think fat causes obesity anymore than I think carb or protein causes obesity. I don’t think the blame lies in the food so much as it does the feeder!  But if you made me choose one of the three I would have to pick fat because the research studies to date have found a correlation between fat in the food to fat on the animal.

    Definitely there is a link between obesity in cats, insulin resistance and DM, but so far no link to carbohydrate level in the food. Do I think carb based kibble is good for cats?  I think kibble in general can be a problem for cats for many reasons.

    I hear your story… IMHO it is a huge problem in nutrition to focus on one component of the diet to the exclusion of others because you just can’t change only one thing at a time in a diet. The diet needs to be evaluated as a whole and each component has strengths and weaknesses. As I said before I’m carb neutral. I neither vilify nor exalt carbohydrates which is why I’d never say a high carb diet is best.  

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    aimee

    I don’t know how I missed that you prefer fresh food to processed food – but I’m very glad to know this about you – and I gladly retract my miscatagorization of you and offer my humble apology. I’ll go erase that Dick Dastardly mustache immediately and offer a piece of organic fruit instead.

    I guess after observing for some time the outward manifestations of a substantial, capable, and adept intellect in you, what confounds me, and even strangely saddens on some level, is what seems to be self imposed limitations that such a proficient mind has been constrained to operate within. I mean no disrespect. 

    The incongruity of your innate intelligence combined with your position that only published nutritional research or “data” is worthy of your consideration when you have lived in the real world for at least a few decades, is all too apparent to me. You seem to have made a religion out of “data” and you are quite adept at defending your position, but this is an incredibly limited position to take if you are trying to evolve into higher states of knowledge.

    There is a huge difference between using your intelligence to investigate and extrapolate information from others empirical experiences, ideas, or parallel information (as human nutrition) and severely limiting the information you will consider to only certain “data” sources. 

    In the world that this approach defines there is no such thing as intuition, ESP, or love. None of these things can be proved, but who can argue against the existence of love? You have discounted this argument in the past, but if you actually define and qualify your world the same way you define and qualify nutrition then you must leave everything behind that science has not proved or run specific tests on to gather data.

    aimee, I cannot honestly believe for one single minute (unless perhaps you have been severely traumatized to be afraid to think for yourself) that you are this narrow and restrictive in the application of your intellect – defining any and all information worth knowing about nutrition in dogs as HAVING to be verified by “data” acquired by a research project is  exceptionally limiting – even if you are gullible enough to believe all the research data that has ever been produced – which I know you are not.

    Even Einstein, who might rightly have claimed to be as smart as they come for a generation or two, stated:

    Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited.

    To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle, requires creative imagination and marks real advance in science.

    The only source of knowledge is experience. 
    (and I don’t think he is referring to just experiments)

    And my personal favorite, “Whatever a person thinks, unless it is stimulated by the thoughts and experiences of others, is even in the best case rather paltry and monotonous.”

  • Shawna

    I found this interesting in one of the links provided..

    Two groups were surveyed – one with obese dogs and one with normal dogs.

    “The veterinarian was the most important source of information on dog nutrition for both groups; owners of normal dogs, however, made significantly more use of other sources such as sales persons in pet shops or specialist books.”                                                  

  • aimee

    Yes carbohydrates are not needed in the diet of dogs but inclusion in the diet didn’t adversly affect growth or weight gain either. There was no difference in plasma AA levels, glucose/ insulin, triglycerides or body composition.

     I agree carbohydrtes are a less expensive way to supply energy than using protein as an energy source. Using animal based protein as an energy source is not ecologically sustainable and I’ll venture to say the market forces won’t support it either.

     

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Currently, I’m too skeptical of join the fat-causes-obesity bandwagon in dogs.

    And what about cats? I’d assume there’s a definite link to Type 2 diabetes (as you mentioned earlier), insulin resistance and obesity. Is a carb-based kibble good for cats?

    With human nutrition, the fat link to atheroschlerosis and obesity was promoted starting with the Nathan Pritikin era of the late 1970s. And even became a part of a national obsession with low fat foods, food pyramids and government regulated nutrition panels.

    Then, this mood slowly but steadily evolved (changed markedly) into a direct connection with carbohydrates.

    For now, I’ll shamelessly admit my scientific attraction to the common sense design of a dog’s natural ancestral (high protein, moderate fat and low carb) diet.

    And I’ll await future studies before I’m ever convinced a high carb diet is the best one for Bailey – and my readers.

  • aimee
  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Marie,

    You make a good point. It’s true, verbal communications can sound much different than text.

    However, I believe the phrase “courteous behavior” covers things in general.

    I don’t want to make people feel self conscious about their remarks. Or that they’re being over restricted and micromanaged.

    I want them to feel free to participate. No need to watch their Ps and Qs. Just be polite and make your point in a friendly way.

    Thanks for your suggestion.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Aimee,

    Whenever I go to look, I still find it extraordinary there’s such a minimal volume of veterinary nutrition research available that make any attempt to scientifically study the potential link between high carb kibbles and canine/feline obesity.

    It’s my own personal opinion that this chronic lack of interest could very well be caused by an industry with no financial incentive to indict its own profitable carb heavy food products as a primary cause of this chronic and dangerous malady.

  • Alexandra

    Thanks Richard!

    They love their bones that’s for sure.

    Part of me doesn’t want to mess with what isn’t broken. But I like giving the variety. Booker has no problem with it, but I am very cauttious with Dante.

  • aimee

    Hi Mike,
     
    The conclusions from the two studies are not in conflict with each other as one studies growth and one studies weight loss, two very different metabolic states. In the growth study both high protein and lower protein diets were trialed and all dogs had similar lean body mass which provides more data to support that once protein needs are met feeding additional protein will not result in more muscle growth. 
     
    Certainly there is a correlation between the introduction of commercial foods and obesity but there are many confounding variables as well (neuter status, indoor sedentary lifestyle, the role the dog plays in the family) which I feel are the predominate factors. In the obesity studies conducted to date it is factors such as these that are cited as the primary reasons for obesity. In Lund’s study which surveyed nearly 22, 000 dogs, diet was grouped into type rather than composition which was unfortunate.  The obese dog’s diet type was more likely NOT to be commercial foods. I think this may reflect “bond” issues as much as it does composition.   
     
     To date the obesity studies in dogs have not found a link between type of diet fed and obesity which could explain why a carbohydrate link hasn’t been explored as a separate issue. I don’t think this has to do with who funds the studies. The two high protein studies you cited were funded by dog food manufactures as was the study Shawna cited.

  • Alexandra

    Thanks Shawna,

    I will download the suggested book.

    I guess a part of ny reluctance is also Dante being stable for the first time in his 16 months, changes make me nervous.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Shawna

    Thanks for the link – I’ll look it over and I’m sure I’ll learn something new.

    Briefly regarding your question about our nutritionist being aware of the heat losses incurred during extrusion; Absolutely yes – he takes that into account! 

    Our food is processed about 180 degrees so there is less loss than normal, but he knows there is loss from the heat and he has this very complicated program where he takes into account every vitamin and mineral in the ingredients and the projected losses from extrusion. He then designs a custom blend of vitamins and minerals that are applied to the kibble after it cools to create a balance of all nutrients so they work synergistically with each other, and do not block each other due to too much or little of one or another. 

    I KNOW it’s not as good as fresh or raw but remember I’m trying to make a “kibble” that is nutritionally as close as is possible to a balanced raw diet for those ho can’t or won’t feed all raw.

    He also adds digestive enzymes to help conserve energy the dog would normally expend on creating digestive enzymes (very energy intensive he tells me), adds prebiotics and probiotics to maintain intestinal health, (80% of the immune system is generated in the colon i’m told) and takes into account the surviving fiber content as well. I won’t say he’s obsessive/compulsive about balancing the overall nutrient profile, but he does have “tendencies” in that direction.

    In the 30 plus years he’s been in this industry he’s never been able to talk another dog food company into going into such detail to balance the nutrients -taking everything, including extrusion temperature and time, into account. I’m proud Brothers was the first to ask him, but it’s a sad commentary on a profit driven industry.

    I am reluctant to repeat a statement of his for fear of it being misunderstood, but he has often said to me, “Richard, the COMPLETE nutrient profile, the LEVELS of the different nutrients and how the nutrients are balanced TO EACH OTHER, is so crucial that it’s importance cannot be overstated;  and I could raise a healthy dog on little more than shoe leather if I could perfectly balance the complete nutrient profile.”

    Of course I told him we wanted to use premium grade ingredients AND balance the nutrient profile.

  • Addie

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480633/pdf/canvetj00075-0058.pdf This even references the Rosmos study saying carb free diets did not have an effect on growth rate or weight gain in Beagle puppies. Article also makes it pretty clear that carbs are merely an economical way of supplying energy (companies save money by adding them, rather than protein – Hills, Purina, etc) It all comes down to making the most profit while allowing dogs to survive, not thrive. 

  • Shawna

    Fat, especially during the growth phase, is instrumental to good brain development.  I wonder how low fat could go before it starts to affect the brain. 

    In the below video the presenter discusses how important a higher fat diet is for brain developement and calls a low fat diet “genocide” for the developing brain.  She also discusses the impact carbohydrates have on the brain.  And this is in people!!!  Scary to me how this would correlate to our dogs.  http://vimeo.com/27961539

  • Shawna

    In my opinion, no not all carbs are created equal.  Grains were eaten by our ancestors but not to the degree we eat them and they were not eaten without “properly” preparing them by long soaking in acidulated waters, fermenting (as in sour dough bread) or sprouting.  We don’t prepare them properly any longer — not for our human foods and not for our dogs’ foods.  Because of this they cause more harm then good.  Dog Food Ninja has discussed how the grains of today are not the grains or our ancestors as well. 

    I think fruits and veggies added to many processed canned and kibbled foods is more about pleasing the human then the health of the dog.  Everything good about fruits and veggies (excluding minerals) is limited or completely lost in the extruding and baking process let alone sitting on store shelves for months on end.  Enzymes, vitamins etc are heat sensitive.  How much actually survives to benefit the dog?  I’m sure its different in every food but it certainly isn’t the same quantity that would be found in raw or steamed fruits and veggies.

    Brothers doesn’t use the same higher heat processing that are used by other manufacturers so obviously some of the lesser heat sensitive nutrients do survive.  Has your nutrionist made any comments on this Richard?

    I think it all boils down (potato, tapioca, peas, grains, garbonzo beans etc) to how the food impacts insulin and leptins and the amount of nutrition available to the body.  This is long and sciency but this video (of Nora Gedaudas) discussing sugar and starches impact on the body and brain may interest you Richard :)    http://vimeo.com/27961539   Pay special attention to the “gluten” section.  This is for people.  Imagine the consequences in our dogs!!!!!

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Dr Mike

    I think it’s a FANTASTIC idea to post guidelines for civilized and courteous behavior when exchanging ideas on YOUR site. 

    You have been kind enough to put forth the effort, energy, and dedication necessary to provide everyone  interested in helping their animals to better health with a place to learn and share regarding dog nutrition and, in my opinion, the very LEAST we can do is behave as gracious guests, treat each other with common human courtesy, and respect the wishes of our host.

    I was going to make my second of three posts regarding those incidents, over on the Brothers thread but since the topic has come up, I’ll just add it here.

    One of the things I have noticed during recent unpleasant situations is what appears to be the emergence of a “Community Conscience” for lack of a better term. I get the feeling lately that the community as a whole is beginning to take responsibility for helping you maintain and enforce a standard of behavior that is consistent with the high regard we have all come to feel for you, and for this idea that you have made a functional reality, and which this “community” has come to value and has apparently decided to protect the integrity of.

    I don’t know if others see or share this observation but in the midst of the storm the realization was an unexpected ray of sunshine to me; and I had the distinct feeling that the DFA Community had begun to coalesce into an entity that had decided to reflect and protect the positive intentions of it’s creator.

    It is not an event or series of events that have the power to determine our future so much as it is our reaction to those events. (I’m not claiming credit for this thought – I’m just paraphrasing something I heard long ago)

    Here’s a stained glass representation of a transformational light that appears during a storm - 

  • aimee

    Richard,  

    I see I get a category all to myself! “aimee touting research on Hills and their creative chemical conglomerations”   But like the others you have miscatagorized me as well I’ve always said fresh over processed foods. Is it just because I like data instead of rhetoric you have painted a Dick Dastardly moustache upon my face? : )  I’ll be happy to tout any published nutritional research that your company has funded, but I’ve yet to find any.  
     

  • aimee

    Toxed2loss,
     I don’t necessarily disagree with Dr. Kincaid in her assessment that commercial foods as a contributing factor in the obesity problem in pets, though our reasons for saying so would be different.
     
    I’m not sure what her basis is for saying that corn isn’t digested well as there are numerous digestion studies that are published that contravene that idea. Also it never made any sense to me to say corn isn’t digestible and in the same breath say it makes dogs fat.  If it isn’t digested than it will be on the lawn not on the dog! : )
     
    Corn was the source of the carbohydrate fed  in Romsos study yet the dogs fed the highest percentage of their diet as carb from corn had the least body fat percentage which refutes Dr. Kincaid’s opinion that calories from corn become fat.
     
    I’ll take data over opinion.
     

  • aimee

    Shawna,

     I don’t see these two studies to be in conflict at all as they are looking at different things.  The Romsos study elavualted body composition throughout growth, an anabolic state, among “diets ranging from carbohydrate-free to high-carbohydrate and from adequate-protein to high-protein.” I cited it because LMD was concerned that feeding a lower proportion of calories from fat during growth may adversely affect body composition.  In the study lean body composition was the same among treatments and fat composition varied.
     
    In the weight loss study all diets were low fat and the dogs were put in a catabolic state and lost more weight when the calories were fed protein instead of carb. This wouldn’t be unexpected due to the thermic effect of protein.
     
    As I said in my response to LMB “Dietary fat is not a problem per say…. you need to watch portion control”
     
    The Romsos study was funded in part by a grant from General Foods. But if we are going to discount study data because of who paid for it than all the high protein data needs to be dumped as well as it was paid for by Walthram! 

  • Marie

    HI Mike,

    Those rules seem good. I might mention something like being careful how you word things, as text communication can come across differently than verbal and what one might mean as non-offensive might be completely misinterpreted. Unless you already put that in your rules and I missed it, LOL

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Shawna

    I’m looking forward to reading his latest book and it appears it will mesh nicely with the “Paleo Diet” by Loren Cordain that sandy got me to start reading. 

    The Paleo Diet is definitely going to change the way Marisa and I will be eating in the future. In fact we’ve already started. This morning for breakfast instead of cereal I had a chicken breast (I did salt it a bite with sea salt).

    Remember when Ninja (Jonathan) was getting on all of us about the Paleo diet many months ago? Now I know why – the man was ahead of his time on DFA.

    Funny how such a simple idea can hit you right in the core when it makes sense, and does the Paleo diet ever make sense, and not just for us people – for our 4 legged sources of unconditional love as well.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Shawna

    I’ve been meaning to get your input on an aspect of carbs for some time now.

    Do you think there is a substantial nutritional difference between carbs that come from grains, potatoes, even the tapioca we use, and other ingredients that fall under the “carb” classification like veggies, pumpkin, fruits, etc where dogs are concerned?

    I guess I’m trying to understand why we have observed such a difference in the health benefits of kibbles that are low on the starchy carbs (especially if they are lower glycemic index carbs) with a good variety and quantity of veggies and fruits versus the kibbles that have a similar carb percentage, or higher, but the starches are predominantly potato or grain versus veggies and fruits.

    Brothers has kept the tapioca, which is a hypoallergenic carb with a medium glycemic index, down to between 9% and 13%, as it’s main purpose is as a binder for the kibble. All other “carbs” are designed to have a positive effect on the nutrient profile and overall function of the food. 

    I realize this is outside that parameters of what Dr Mike can address in these reviews but I wanted to know what your opinion on the subject was. Where overall nutrition is concerned for dogs – Are all carbs created equal?

  • sandy

    I know!!  That’s pug abuse!! Why do folks let their pugs get out of control like that?  That’s the equivalent of a 700 pound man!! And the poor pug I dropped off last year to his new owner is now obese!! They wanted to meet another one that I had…someone else got her instead!  But…they do not know about dog nutrition so I sent them many links to read over…I can only hope for the best :(

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hey All,

    Encouraged by some of those awful discussions we had in our community just before the recent holidays, I finally got around to writing and posting the our new Commenting Guidelines.

    Hopefully, this should help folks feel more comfortable while on our website – yet also to understand a few reasonable guidelines about good posting etiquette.

    Let me know what you think. Did I leave anything out?

  • Shawna

    Holy cow Sandy!!  Great job!!!  I thought the second picture (before blowing up larger) was a pig :)