“… I can’t wipe every … Unless I’m absolutely sure…”

Absolutely! And that’s part of what I’m hoping to accomplish in this discussion. I’m hoping that we can get to the bottom of it.

In the meantime, something that I mentioned in my transferred post: are they seeing symptoms? Not every critter has the same sensitivity. There are a whole lot of variables. If a dog that’s glowing in health, there’s a little more wiggle room. His healthy immune system may be able to handle it, to prevent it from doing damage.

I think you may remember Dr. Blaylock’s list of susceptible individuals? “the old, the young, the infirm…” their blood brain barriers are compromised, therefore more toxins get in there fore,( and this part is from Kidd) more glutathione is used up, therefore there isn’t enough available to detox the excitotory neuro toxins. There fore (and this is from me) if you or your pet show symptoms of health harm, it’s always in your best interest to eliminate as many toxins from your diet and environment as possible, to allow your immune systems to repair themselves. If you catch it sooner, you don’t get chronically ill. This is a situation where an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure!!! IMO.

The sicker you or your critter are the more imperative it is for you to avoid toxins. So, not everybody needs to, but estimates that I’ve furnished to the CDC, and that I’m starting to see used, are 85% (conservatively) of the human population has some kind of chronic health condition due to consumer product and environmental toxins. Actual figures support 95% from mild to severe, as a more realistic estimate, but that would start a general panic. Not many people read every word carefully for content, you know. They’d blank on “mild.” and many people don’t understand the word “chronic,” as used in medical terms… but 85% is still alarming.

“… Then so would any other amino acid…”

Not necessarily so, not all bonds are formed at the same strength. However, I think that’s an excellent research project for future consideration. I think it would be equally as shameful for people feeding this for its alledged nutritive value to discover that they weten’t getting those either. Are we getting back to ground zero? Raw and lightly cooked are best.

Richard

I am extremely sensitive to glutamate and react to even similar substances. I react to ferrous gluconate, the substance they use to make olives black. It’s related, and I get the same symptoms, though some what milder. I’m bringing this up because I don’t get reactions to stew or boiled food at home. I don’t get reactions to pressure cooked food at home.

So that answers your question but also illustrates that there is something substantially different in “natural flavor” or “broth” on labels. I do get reactions to every item I’ve ever tested that has said, “natural flavor.” or “broth” including when its listed on raw chicken and turkey labels. Both are found on pet food labels, in addition to “meat meal” which has a similar processing practice.

I’ve noticed in my pets that if it says “meat meal” they’ll eat it until they puke. If its real food, even raw, they’ll walk away when they are full and come back when they are hungry. I recognize this from my own similar behavior.

Long ago, before I gave up MSG in all it’s forms, I’d think to my self, “I want a cookie.” I’d go to the cupboard and get a cookie. Then another, etc. and in 30 min. I’d eaten the whole stupid box! What happened? Addictive substances. This is the equivalent of what I see in my pets.

Thanks for the compliment on detective work and for printing the facts on who’s heading up the AAFCO, and the shell games commonly played in marketing. Lots of people are unaware.
You should know that I too am continuing to research as we’re doing this discussion. (as I’m sure Shawna is! Nice reference, by the way, Shawna!) I really would like to pin down the difference and figure out which is safer and how to differentiate.

So I read Shawnas link. Even in wiki’s explanation their doesn’t seem to be a readily apparent difference in the wet method. Here’s my suppositions based on what I know about freeing glutamate/ammino acid bonds, which also frees aspartate.

Research on MSG says that it can be derived by extremely high heat, short term, or low heat long term, by chemical -like hydrochloric acid (at much greater amounts than in our stomach) or by enzymolysis.

In stew, you boil it until the meat is tender. It’s a moderately high heat, but a relatively short duration, 1-4 hrs. In wet rendering they boil it, but for how long? Some of it was rendered to the point that it was a slurry. The article said it was generally used in canned dog food…

In the dry rendering process, they’re using extremely high heat, steam, for short temperature.

If we’re seeing symptoms and reactions of addictive substance in animals that consume products that we know contain ingredients that can be manufactured in such a way as to derive free glutamic and aspartic acids, then we can, with relative certainty, determine that it’s in there. “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.”

So, what are they doing to meat meals that are wet rendered that are not cooked for long times at moderate heat, that still elicit the addictive, excitotory neurotoxic response?

My therory? They could be adding chemical, enzymes or even holding back a portion as a base. The base, that would be cooked for much longer, would provide the free MSG & “Asp.” (aspartate = Asp. for future reference.)

I figure it’s part of the shell game, the industry acceptable practice.

So Richard, can you shed any light on this?

Does dry rendering look problematic to you?

If boiling chicken is so detrimental then how come chicken soup has been an age old remedy? It’s often referred to as “Jewish Penicillin” if I remember correctly. I know i was raised on it along with my 10 brothers and sisters. My mother used to keep a huge pot of it boiling on the stove night and day and each day more stuff was thrown into it.

Be careful about what you say about her chicken soup now…you don’t want my mother involved in this discussion. Her Missouri down home “logic” is usually devastating to anyone audacious enough to question her. LOL – just a little mom humor.

The point of boiling the chicken, from what I have been told, is to separate the majority of fat and moisture from it so it can be dried and reduced to mostly meat. The fat is added to the kibble later with preservates (hopefully mixed tocopherals).

“Process variations
The rendering process varies from plant to plant in many ways.

1.Whether the end products are to be used as human food is based on the type of raw material and the processing methods.
2.Whether the end products are to be used as animal or pet food.
3.The material may be processed wet or dry. In wet processing, either boiling water or steam is added to the material, causing fat to rise to the surface; in dry processing, fat is released by dehydrating the raw material.
4.The temperature range used, whether high or low.
5.Processing may be either in discrete batches or in a continuous process.
6.The processing plant may be operated by an independent company that collects the material on the open market, or by the packing plant that produced the material.

Rendering processes for edible products
Edible rendering processes are basically meat processing operations and produce lard or edible tallow for use in food products. Edible rendering is generally carried out in a continuous process at low temperature (less than the boiling point of water). The process usually consists of finely chopping the edible fat materials (generally fat trimmings from meat cuts), heating them with or without added steam, and then carrying out two or more stages of centrifugal separation. The first stage separates the liquid water and fat mixture from the solids. The second stage further separates the fat from the water. The solids may be used in food products, pet foods, etc., depending on the original materials. The separated fat may be used in food products, or if in surplus, it may be diverted to soap making operations. Most edible rendering is done by meat packing or processing companies.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(animals)#Process_variations