Dr. Karen Becker: How to Choose a Good Dog Food

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To see Part 2, please click Dr. Karen Becker Shows How to Choose a Good Dog Food.

For more help, watch Dr. Becker’s video to discover The Best and Worst Types of Food to Feed Your Dog.

  • Elena Lizardo

    My little chihuahua is in the hospital with a renal problem here in Costa Rica. The doctor tells me than I am going to have to feed my dog a special food for renal deficiency with a diet with not much protein. I cook for my chihuahua balanced recipes made for chihuahuas, what kind of food will I have to give her now?

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  • Janice

    What is the difference between foods that are “highly recommended” or “enthusiastically recommended” ? I’ve changed my dogs food so many times my head spins, but I use the recommendations on this site as a guide. My pup has a sometimes sensitive stomach but I am unable to determine the cause, so once again I’m shopping for a new food, He has been on a large number of the 5 star foods on this site for 2 years and I must say that out of all I’ve tried EVO worked the best but when the recall came out I switched to NutriSource Grain Free but the lose stools are making a more frequent appearance per week lately, sometimes there is so much conflicting information on this site it makes it difficult to determine what is right. my pups are large breed. Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks all :)

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  • Pattyvaughn

    Her dog has/had specific problems that the the food that was recommended, Brothers Complete Allergy Formula, is particularly good for. Several of us here have had the same or very similar problems and had very good results with it. And many of us would never recommend any Diamond product. The extra things you would have to add to a less expensive, lesser quality dog food to raise it to the quality she needed would bring it up to the cost of the better food, so you might as well start with the better food.

  • http://www.facebook.com/sevansons Sevanson Myers
  • http://www.facebook.com/sevansons Sevanson Myers

    Re: Debbie the owner of the previously ill/vegan dog-why not a fish based diet? Either fresh, canned, or perhaps even a good quality, grain-free, dry kibble like “Taste of the Wild-Pacific Stream”?, and just add some water to it-making a gravy (& obviously increasing moisture content)-perhaps gradually adding a little meat, or the ocassional hard-boiled egg/cheese to it? It’s easier to digest, lower cost than some of the other brands or methods mentioned here, and don’t forget internet searching for coupons, & shopping at some large (rural) feed stores-which are often much cheaper than most “high end” pet stores (& certainly better than Wal-Mart or most Grocery Store brands).

  • Jeanett prater

    My dog has had the kind of kidney stone that it is now recomended that she eat only SO food. Is there anything else I can do for her. The food is very expense. Thanks

  • Shawna

    Please explain further.

  • losul

    Certainly not in the loose and selective sense that many people here use the term.

  • Shawna

    You wrote “I’m sure others here will claim it was only “detox” if they haven’t already.” 

    You don’t believe in detoxing then?

  • bill

    Thank goodness.

    I’ve an entire freezer of beef
    and really want to also get some
    dehydrated in there since my kidd
    did so well on that before (Addiction)

    Although, I’ll move to a better dehydrated
    food and mix with chunks of beef on the
    other end of the day.

    Nothing beats results and his stools
    are nothing like they used to be
    even though I was supplementing
    with all the stuff I found on Raw.

    Think I found a happy medium though
    based on your reply.

    Thanks for that last note Shawna.

    I really need to STOP now as I’ve spent
    days on research and am literally Dog-tired
    and brain dead.

    I never did this much research on what’s on
    MY plate…

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hey Bill – you should check out the new raw topic area and homemade food topic area on the forums, there’s some good info there too.

  • bill

    Thumbs-up!

    Y’all need to write an encyclopedia…great stuff!

  • bill

    Thanks Sandy, that’s a marvelous insight.

    I’m on-it!

  • bill

    Tsk, tsk, tsk Shawna.

    Never apologize when you bombard
    with THAT much vital info.

    One couldn’t pay enough for those golden
    nuggets of knowledge.

    Let me go digest it all and see if I can
    turn myself into a dog-chef.

    And yes, all the mom’s and dad’s here
    are super…guess you’d have to be owning,
    putting up with, and succeeding with 4-legged
    children.

  • Shawna

    Just to clarify — for about the last 2 or 3 years I’ve been using commercial raw (currently using and recommend Darwins for those here in the US—I mainly use their duck product).  I also buy organic meats from Trader Joes (usually ground turkey and ground beef).  Bravo is a commercial product here that has meat only as well as meat and bone varieties.  I get their meat only venison, bison and salmon.  To the above I add a premix like Honest Kitchen Preference or Steve Brown’s Premix. 

    I used to use Primal (another commercial brand here in the US) quail and pheasant premade frozen foods.  I still use their premade rabbit product off and on.

    My point, you don’t have to always feed the same way.  You can keep premixes around for those times you don’t have as much time.  You can feed some ground whole chicken and the next meal feed chunks of chuck roast with eggshell calcium..

    Once you have the basics down you can get creative.  Add ground brazil nuts for extra magnesium.  Add sardines for omega 3 (bone in so don’t need extra calcium).  Add raw eggs for their protein.  Small amounts of high quality sea salt adds sodium but also lots of trace minerals (sodium is derived from the blood of a true prey diet and is necessary for optimal health).  Dandelion greens (especially when young) from yards that aren’t sprayed add a variety of nutrients at no cost :).  In my area, Whole Foods gets $4.00 for dandelion greens (they are more expensive than spinach).  Add freshly grated garlic for it’s many benefits.  Etc etc etc…..

  • Shawna

    Hi Bill :)  Aren’t these guys on this blog GREAT :).. 

    I have small dogs ranging in weight from 5 to 14 pounds — 8 dogs total.  Feeding a small breed dog is a bit different than feeding a larger dog.  HDM can get away with feeding a whole quail.  Mine could eat it but it would be breakfast and dinner for several days.

    Pure uncontaminated bone meal is a better source of calcium then eggshells.  Eggshells can be used for sure but they don’t have any phosphorus and some nutritionists feel that our pups won’t be getting species appropriate amounts of phosphorus on eggshells alone.  I use a combination of shells and bones.

    Eggshells should be supplemented at about 1/2 teaspoon per pound of meat (food) used — which is about 900 to 1200 mg of calcium.  The amounts of calcium in different brands of bone meal are different and you have to factor in the phosphorus.  Amounts to supplement vary then by product.  Sandy linked to dogaware.com..  GREAT place to get proper amounts to supplement no matter what you use.. 

    Feed Billy Junior the amount based on percentage but watch his body condition closely and adjust the amount fed from there.  I have three five pounds dogs and they each eat different amounts — Gizmo my Pom gets .94 ounces (less than an ounce) while my other Pom Peanut gets 1.6 ounces and my Chihuahua Cloee gets 2 ounces per meal..  Any less or more for each will cause weight gain or loss.  I weigh their food out on a tea scale every meal.  I do add a teaspoon of high quality, higher protein canned food to their meals as well (for variety).

    When I feed raw meaty bones I have to make sure I am feeding parts that have significant amounts of meat.  Younger birds will have more meat and less bone as an example.  Or the little drummetts chicken legs are small enough that I can feed those and some meat if necessary and feed a bit less their second meal of the day.  Your furkid is a bit bigger than most of mine so you have more wiggle room on what can be fed.

    Just make SURE to use a WIDE VARIETY of meats — red and white and dark etc.  This is the only way to get varying amounts and types of amino acids, fatty acids etc..  Red meat has more saturated fat while dark meat chicken has more omega 6 fats as an example.  Turkey has more amounts of tryptophan, heart is higher in taurine, brain has good omega 3 DHA and other healthy fats etc.  Variety is the key to a healthy diet.

    I’ll make up a batch of baby food and will save the jars and will ask others for jars.  I’ll buy a wide variety of baby foods (both in jar and pouch but always organic and grain free).  I’ll then mix 5 or 6 different ones and store them in the amounts appropriate for 1 pound of food.  I cheat a bit — one pound of meat is 16 ounces and 20% of 16 ounces is 3.2 ounces so I’ll portion the mixed baby foods by 3.2 ounces.  Then I’ll freeze all the jars.  When I need to make a pound of food I’ll defrost one jar of the mixed baby food.

    When fruits and veggies are fresh I’ll buy fresh and steam the ones that need to be cooked then will puree or grind all the veggies/fruits.  These can be frozen in the same baby food jars, can be added to baby food to change the texture etc.  You can also use frozen veggies/fruits.

    I do the same thing with organs.  I’ll buy liver, heart, brains (when available), kidneys etc.  I’ll portion out 5% liver or .8 ounces and .8 ounces of a variety of other organs and freeze.  When I’m ready to mix the food I’ll thaw and grind a bit to mix them before mixing in with the meat, veggies and calcium source.  I also add a whole food vitamin (just to be safe) and a supplement mix I make up using super foods and herbs (spirulina, burdock root, coconut flakes etc).  My dogs are mainly rescue and their health was questionable when coming to me..  I like the extra comfort of the supplements/vitamins.  And like Sandy, I add enzymes and probiotics or probiotic foods like home made fermented veggies or raw green tripe.

    Sorry for the length of this :)..

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I was posting earlier from work as “guest”.  Maybe you could find a schnauzer forum and ask other schnauzer owners about how their dogs do on raw and what they feed, etc…

    Just because the breed is prone to pancreatitis doesn’t necessarily mean your dog will be.  Just transition into the new chicken food.

    There’s dogforums.com.  It has a raw feeding section, not to mention a “raw feeding pictures thread”!  You’ll have to check that out! Maybe you can post a question there for other schnauzer owners feedback.  I’m sure there’s a forum just for schnauzers though.

  • guest

    Here’s one site that talks about supplements:

    http://www.dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html#cooked

  • guest

    Didn’t mean to throw your plans totally off!  You can slowly add in some of the new chicken food to whatever he’s eating now instead of going to the new raw chicken diet cold turkey or maybe you can ask the butcher about skinless chicken!  HDM or Shawna can tell you about calcium supplementation.  I feed meat and bones so don’t supplement and don’t have my recipe book on hand (Healthy Foods for Cats and Dogs by Becker/Taylor).  I’m at work right now. Have you thought about getting some of the raw feeding recipe books?  You can use egg shells, but I use bone meal when needed.  Also chicken will be alot cheaper than beef!  And you can give skinless drumsticks and thighs (usually easy to find) or skin the whole chicken yourself and cut it up.  He should be able to consume the whole bird. And the addition of digestive enzymes with meals will also help with digestion of fat.   

  • bill

    Excellent question.

    I hadn’t thought about that.

    I’ll have to go ask the butcher.

    I believe they probably grind it
    all together.

    Goodness, definitely don’t want to
    risk that.  I didn’t know. Thanks
    for the heads-up!

    So, perhaps it would be better to
    give Billy J the chunks of beef with all
    the other stuff:
    1. Chunks of either ‘glop’ or baby food
    2. Organ meats
    3. calcium (via either crushed eggshells/bone meal)

    Does that look right?

    And I’d read something about grinding eggshells as a
    better bio-digestible form of calcium.

    What’s your take on that?

    Have you come across a site or know
    of the quantity to give per meal/day, per
    weight or whatever?

    Thanks

  • bill

    Gottit, thanks HDM.

    Are you doing percent of your
    dog’s weight…as mentioned in
    BARF and other RAW sites?

    If so, what percentage are you working
    with?

    I’m doing 3-5% for Billy Junior.

    And just to clarify: are you giving
    boneless muscle meat
    organ meat
    raw meaty bones

    all at one meal/day?

  • guest

    Do you currently feed Jr a fatty diet? Do you know if the ground chicken from the butcher will have alot of skin?  A sudden increase in fat content can sometimes lead to pancreatitis. Something else to think about with schnauzer breeds!  Have you thought about a transition period in regards to changing from his normal fat content to a higher fat content food?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Bill –

    No I have large dogs. 110 lb. male bloodhound, 68 lb. female bloodhound and a 45 lb. 5 month old female  bloodhound puppy. I generally give them 1 pouch each (a pouch is usually 4-5 oz.). You could probably give 1/2 pouch to a dog the size of yours.

    My rule of thumb is give 8 oz. boneless muscle meat and 2-3 oz. organ meat for every pound of raw meaty bones (turkey necks, chicken necks, etc.) fed.

  • bill

     HDM,

    That was glorious information.

    I’m so bowled-over by your consideration
    and detailed help on this.

    Fantastic.

    THAT’S what I miss about not being back
    home.  The utter dedication and focus of
    movements and beliefs.

    Thanks so much.

    Billy Junior thanks you too.

    We’re either going to order the baby food
    online–those brands aren’t available on the
    Singapore shelves–or scour similar organics
    here.

    BTW, do you have small dogs?

    how many jars–or portions thereof–do you
    feed yours, per meal?

    I’m still trying to work out the percentages.
    for Billy Junior.

    As you saw he’s very active and is a mini
    Schnauzer weighing about 14-15 lbs.

    trying to get the mix of meat, mix and bones
    right.

    Oh, and the info about the calcium and bone
    within the ground chicken…that was precious!

    Thanks x 2

    Yee-Hah!

  • bill

     Absolutely Betsy.

    I’m in the same boat

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Bill –

    I know I’m not Shawna but these are the baby food substitutes I like to use in my dogs’ raw diet:

    -Peter Rabbit Organics – http://www.peterrabbitorganics.com/ (Carrot/Squash/Apple, Pea/Spinach/Apple, Pumpkin/Carrot/Apple, Pear/Pea)

    -Plum Organics – http://www.plumorganics.com/ (Second Blend: Apple/Carrot, Blueberry/Pear/Purple Carrot, Broccoli/Apple, Spinach/Peas/Pear, Pumpkin/Banana)

    There are other brands out there too, these are just two of my favorites as they’re organic and I can get them at my grocery store. Just make sure you read the ingredients and get one with just fruits and veggies (no grains) and make sure there’s no onion, raisins or grapes in it.

    If you’re feeding a ground mix with bone do not add bonemeal or any other calcium supplement. You’ll throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio. A whole ground chicken has the appropriate calcium to phosphorus ratio. Ground is tidier but I’d recommend feeding RMBs at least a few days a week for dental health.

  • losul

    To anyone, I would be very careful about taking absolute advice from anyone here. For example, the following quote came from one of the resident “experts”, believe it or not.
    “I wouldn’t feed potatoes, beans or lentils. I’d go get some past date chicken wings. Feed those raw, with eggs, cooked broccoli, pumpkin puree, some coconut oil, turmeric, until your food get here.”

    This is the advice given to debbie, “supposedly” for an ill dog, that is likely very nutrient deficient, immunocomprised, has been on numerous pharmaceuticals, has been fed a vegan diet most of it’s life, has had very little exposure to ANY animal proteins, only very recently in it’s dry kibble, and has NEVER been fed ANY raw meat.

    Now the advice is to immediately expose it heavily to not only raw chicken and eggs, but to feed it out of date raw chicken wings. Sounds like a prescription for a disastrous bout of salmonella infection or something else, could even be fatal.

    As a raw feeder I already  KNOW my dog has most assuredly been exposed to, and is probably fairly regularly exposed, to various numerous pathogens, especially various coiliforms and salmonella bacteria. I challenge any raw feeder to deny the fact that their dogs are exposed regularly to NUMEROUS pathogens. A fairly high percentage of meats sold in the grocery routinely have numerous pathogens, even so do commercially prepared raw diets. Exposed to a little here and there, most dogs can handle very well, but they need to be slowly aclimated to it, and allowed to build up resistance, or you can end up with a very, very sick dog or even worse.
    ——————————-

    To Bill, my best guess as to why your dog got the hershey squirts switching to raw beef so drastically is that his body was not yet prepared to handle these pathogens adequately. As it was beef, your dog was probably receiving an over exposure to coliforms (one of the various e-coli strains),  clostridium,,  some other pathogen, or something combined. I’m sure others here will claim it was only “detox” if they haven’t already. 

    I’m not not at all against raw feeding, i’m just a realist.

  • Mike P

     Joanie hang in there,I’m positive Dr Mike will take care  of this poster problem.We on DFA have been through this before and Dr Mike will take care of it.Please keep coming back and you will get the answers to your questions.

  • Solimarchin

    Blunt or not, probably one of the best posts concerning this drama in a long tome.  Thank you losul for making my day!

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Do you use the 100% pure oil only for skin or do you give it as a food supplement too?  Or should one buy separate products?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Hi bill, Lucky you. I’d love to find a place locally where I could pick up number three on your list which is essentially the neatly packaged prey model raw which is nutritionally complete and a heckuva lot neater than a whole chicken. Granted you lose some of the dental benefits, but you also don’t end up giving a pup with greasy ears a bath quite as often.

    You’re in the military? Thank you for your service.

  • bill

     Hiya Shawna,  you’re a wealth of info.  Or have I just been on another planet for 3-years.

    Anyway:

    1.  Tell me more about the baby food substitute (details, details).  Can it replace the ‘glop’ in varying BARF diet books?  It seems easy and I too am pressed for time but, unfortunately, am stationed in Asia and they don’t have a penny on the resources back home?

    2.  After BJ got choco-pudding-pooh from silly me feeding him chunks of pure beef and barely anything else I’ve reversed field and wrote to someone whom said BJ’s activity level probably warranted more calories.  I did not want to give him veggies as I’d read they are not necessary but, I’m thinking otherwise if for only the fiber for binding.  Or can I just stick to the proper amounts of bone, salmon oil, vitamin e, and be safe?

    3.  Instead of throwing him a whole chicken can i spoon out ground chicken (with the bone, skin, organ meats all-in) they prepare at a butchers down the road here whom pack it and freeze it for neighborhood doggies? Ground is so much easier/tidier, then I can add the other stuff (bone meal/seaweed calcium) with his meals and be set-to-go?

    I’d be overjoyed to be able to find a mixture I can combine or food process (all-in), bag it and stick in the freezer about 2-3 month’s worth.

    4.  BTW, which vitamins/bone meal can I add to the food inside the bag that’s to be frozen and which supplements can I NOT add into the freezer bags.

    Once again, just thinking of simplicity.

    Thanks!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Joanie –

    Sorry, sometimes discussions like this pop up. Dr. Mike is working on a forum now so soon off topic  discussions won’t be as much of a problem. :)

    What type of food are you looking to feed? Raw, homemade, kibble, canned, dehydrated, a combination? What you decide to feed will also depend on your budget and time constraints. I can image feeding a kennel of labs could be expensive and require a lot of time. Any of the 4 or 5 star foods on this site would be a good choice, go with one within your budget and that works for your dogs. Every dog is different and what works for one might not work for another.

    I have three bloodhounds and feed a homemade, balanced, grain-free raw diet. My dogs are thriving. I’ve fed everything from low quality grocery store kibble, “holistic” kibble, grain-free/high protein kibble, dehydrated, canned and raw. Once I switched to raw and saw the difference in my dogs health I knew I would never go back to commercially prepared foods. It’s expensive and time consuming and it took A LOT of research, but it’s been totally worth it.

    Be sure to check out Dr. Becker’s video above on choosing a pet food and this video of 13 pet foods ranked from best to worst:

    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2010/07/21/13-pet-foods-ranked-from-great-to-disastrous.aspx 

    Dr. Becker is a great resource for animal nutrition.

    I’m sure others will pipe up with their opinions and experiences. Good luck finding a food! :)

  • Joanie

    I joined this post for information on changing how I feed my Labrador Retrievers in my Kennels.  It is hard to keep track, and absorb the information I need, when one person seems to dominate the postings.  I am the Owner/Breeder of Labrador Retrievers, and what to feed them the best I can.  If someone can help me with a solution, please email me;  [email protected]

  • Storm’s Mom

    What I mean is think of Brothers as the cornerstone of everything Audrey eats. It sounds like it’s actually ALL Audrey NEEDS to eat.  If you do not have Brothers on hand, everything else that we/you are talking about here is a moot point because it’s a supplement TO Brothers.  At the moment, you do not even have Brothers on hand …and my understanding is that you did not buy your first bag of Brothers from your own funds,  nor the one that should come in tomorrow… so you have not even bought the Brothers at all from your own funds yet! Until you know you can do so over a period of time ..and until you HAVE done so over a period of time.. for the life of me I cannot understand why you are even thinking about adding these extras now or “for future”. If you can’t even purchase Brothers on your own, Audrey may not even HAVE a future. Focus, debbie, focus.

  • InkedMarie

    Sort of sounds like all the reviews I read about coconut oil, useful for many things! I didn’t even know they made emu stuff for humans. On a side note, when we go to ours sons home, we pass by a house that has two Emu in the backyard

  • Dave’s Hounds

     I started using it on cuts and wounds – irritated spots and it worked wonders. Now we use emu oil soap, shampoo and lotion for the humans. I always buy 100% pure emu oil as well. I also use as an after shave and the redness goes away immediately (I have really sensitive skin).

  • InkedMarie

    I saved that link to read later….my Boone was a big paw licker, til he started on the Brothers. He’s back to it a bit now, I think maybe from the heat being on all the time. Maybe the Emu oil would be a help. Thanks, Dave!

  • debbie

     please excuse the post, im tired and just seen I double posted that part of the link from a site, sorry.. did go in to edit it, but guess it did not work, night.. and hope you all have a great sunday:)

  • debbie

    Read for a while tonight, went for a ultra long walk, then realized I left the pc on… found a neat site about dog foods etc, and found this on it, simple but meaningful…:

      THE ROTATION DIET

    Many people choose not to feed the same food day in day out for the
    life of the pet.  There are a few reasons why but mainly it’s to help
    keep a dog interested at meal time and because many people feel what one
    kibble is deficient in the other can make up for it, and vice versa. 
    It’s a good idea to find a few different kibbles a dog can tolerate and
    thrive on.  You never know when an allergy might pop up so it’s good to
    have differing formulas at your disposal.  Some people who incorporate a
    rotation diet change the food at each meal time.  Some do every week. 
    Some do every other week.  Some change once a month.  Some change
    whenever a bag runs out.  If you’re interested in rotating kibble please
    know there is no set way to do it.  It’s up to you and your dog.  Sure
    can be fun though!
     

    Many people choose not to feed the same food day in day out for the
    life of the pet.  There are a few reasons why but mainly it’s to help
    keep a dog interested at meal time and because many people feel what one
    kibble is deficient in the other can make up for it, and vice versa. 
    It’s a good idea to find a few different kibbles a dog can tolerate and
    thrive on.  You never know when an allergy might pop up so it’s good to
    have differing formulas at your disposal.  Some people who incorporate a
    rotation diet change the food at each meal time.  Some do every week. 
    Some do every other week.  Some change once a month.  Some change
    whenever a bag runs out.  If you’re interested in rotating kibble please
    know there is no set way to do it.  It’s up to you and your dog.  Sure
    can be fun though!

  • losul

    Debbie, I know you surely have problems, but I wonder, if on top of all your and your dog’s health problems, if you have ever been diagnosed with an attention seeking personality disorder? Maybe some sort of Munchausen by Internet Proxy?

    If so, I guess you picked a real good place here to get what you crave by playing to the vanities to the abundance of the “nutritionists”,  “dieticians”,  “toxicologists”, “herbologists”, “veterinarians”, etc.  Heck along with some well meaning and intentioned folk you can get pity from, there are probably even a few hypochondriacs, obsessives and other phobics you can connect with.

    Excuse me if I was too blunt.

  • debbie

     thank you, right now im laying  off all treats, but for future was curious as to what you gave,  I used to make hers, homemade.. different ones, have not done that in ages.. again thanks

  • Shawna

    Nice post Betsy :)

    Via research it has been discovered that “adult” dogs are not efficient at converting the ALA fatty acid in plant based foods into DHA fatty acid.  DHA is needed for eye, brain and immune system health.  Animal sources of omega 3 have preformed EPA and DHA. 

    I don’t think some flax in a dog not having estrogen dominance issues (Toxed knows more about this than I) is bad but it shouldn’t replace animal based omega 3s.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Sorry for the duplicate.  I’m trying to reply to nherrera5.

    You can rotate kibbles, canned foods, even other forms of foods like raw, freeze dried and homemade. Even adding a lighlty scrambled egg or can or sardines on top of the kibble. My dogs main meals are kibble and raw. I use freeze dried as treats, canned foods as kibble toppers, sometimes reconstituted dehydrated food as a kibble topper and sometimes they just get a raw chicken drumstick

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    Nature’s Variety Instinct, Stella & Chewy’s Carnivore Crunch, and Nutrisca.

  • debbie

     Not quite sure what you mean here? I am asking because so many people have said I should put the egg, or sardines, etc.. on top of her kibbles…  or the canned, and other things…  I am just making sure I have it right, thats all.

  • debbie

     Sandy, what kind of freeze dried do you use as a treat? thanks

  • Storm’s Mom

    debbie – please keep the KISS principle in mind here.  Seems to me your focus might be better spent on ensuring you ALWAYS have Brothers on hand – sustainably, by your own means – rather than trying to figure out what ELSE to feed/give her on a daily basis.  As I understand it, Brothers was carefully designed to work on Audrey’s issues ON ITS OWN. Let it. Stop futzing around with this so much. Once you have the means, and perhaps the stress of what Audrey’s going through has subsided somewhat, you’ll be in a better position to make other decisions about what Audrey consumes, but it honestly just does not sound like you are there at all at the moment.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    You can rotate kibbles, canned foods, even other forms of foods like raw, freeze dried and homemade. Even adding a lighlty scrambled egg or can or sardines on top of the kibble. My dogs main meals are kibble and raw. I use freeze dried as treats, canned foods as kibble toppers, sometimes reconstituted dehydrated food as a kibble topper and sometimes they just get a raw chicken drumstick. Give probiotics or probiotics/enzymes to help build up gut health.

  • debbie

     ok, so what your saying is one day maybe add some egg to the top of the brothers, maybe next day sardines, one day yogurt, like different things everyday? or every other day?

     I did that when i was making her homemade vegan food, but when i put her on the nat bal dry kibble it was only that.. but to be honest she was not wanting it, she loves the brothers…i used to have to add carrots, or yogurt something just to get her to eat the nat bal duck, even the nat bal vegan, same she never liked it.. the brothers, ohh my she loves it.. im just scared all this other stuff will make her sick, but guess not, right? and in time  even change up on the brothers, get the allergy, and give one day that, one day the fish, etc? so dont add the flax oil, betsy posted it was not good, and the vet told me to get it, lol…
      I noticed a little while ago, she is laying here sleeping, on my feet:), that her eyes are now runny… im hoping all this is the bad coming out you know? not another infection coming in, see she stopped all the meds and usually when she does, not long after the infection comes back:(

  • doggonefedup

    oops meant to say you don’t have to add anything. veggie broth is even okay.

  • doggonefedup

    yeah sure you have to add anything. it’s mostly for variety right now. I love pizza but would get tired of eating it if that was all had 24/7even with the various combination of toppings.

  • debbie

     ps vet said audrey has thyroid problems also, she takes 2 pills a day for it, and 2 drops in eyes every other day for dry eye…
     and they said the ph in her urine was not right…

  • debbie

    thank you, again:), ok someone else mentioned wetting the food, and I think I asked re it, cause see I read some where, once not to do that.. as it ruins the food? crazy stuff you read you know? ok I have broth, lol but veg broth, so thats not good for her i take it right? ok, i only bought sardines tonight, but i bought a half dozen of eggs, should have got more:(and quite a few cans in the little tin of the sardines.. i can get the mackarel.. cant  get the canned food now…will this be ok for now?

  • doggonefedup

    my thoughts would be to add 10-15% fesh meats or fish or canned food and also wet the kibble with either water or broth to increase volume… it’ll help fill her up some

  • debbie

     thank you, oh good as i was waiting longer…. I try so hard with her, i dont know how these ear infections ever started, a lady i know actually gives her cocker walmart food, yuck.. and her dog never had bad ears:( i dont get it… i guess my bad luck has worn off on poor audrey…

  • debbie

     ohh, oops mike, sorry:(

  • doggonefedup

    yes it coukd be the ear opening up. that growth could very well be something like a pimple. a little inverted puss pocket. As the Candida starts to die off or starve itself out, the infections will always get a lot worse. the ear infections (symptoms) may have been completely gone or even for lack of better words dormant until they start to die off. Then they will seem to come back with a vengence until they finally do die off. That may be whatt is going on now. that also explains being tired and extra hungry as of lately.
    30 to 45 minutes should be enough time for the ears to dry out enough to not interfear with the ear drops.

  • Mike P

    an average of 1 post every 3 minutes…awesome

  • debbie

     dave, when the food comes monday, should I keep adding the sardines n egg to the brothers? or just stick to the brothers plain? what do you think?

  • debbie

    :( the right ear is soo bad that when you touch it, you know how it is supposed to be soft? well its like a rock, has been for yrs, vets said its from all her chronic ear infections, when she got her first one i rushed her to the vet, always have, got the meds, did all i was supposed to… i dont get why she kept getting them, vet here said ohh put her on duck limited ing food, i did, wow the skin n ears got worse… its been one crazy ride.. a friend in ny had to have her dogs both ear canals removed, i dont have the money for it, plus that surgery scares me….

  • debbie

     after i flush, how long do you think i need to wait before putting in the cream?I seen betsy posted before asking if maybe the odor is coming from the ears starting to open up, so thats a good thing then, right?

  • debbie

     humm.. you know your right, lol.. when dave sent me the link , posted it to that article, obviously he was being kind.. and when I read it , it did make sense, but now what you say also makes sense…
     I have a ton of stuff in my faves in a area just for audrey, when I can i will look for that and re post it.. it all sounded good…but if i dont flush, i dont see how its gonna help her, you are right..she is such a sweet dog…. you know I got her as a puppy, and have done everything I felt i should have since… I have talked to people with cockers who never ever had a ear infection, and have talked to people who had to have their cockers ear canals removed, like they want me to do with audrey, see its her right ear, kinda always now stays closed, and it has a piece, a growth over it, which makes it very hard to get anything in there.. at the last vet visit, he could not even look in it it was so closed, yet she had no infection then…

  • doggonefedup

    don’t worry about putting your finger in the ear and hitting the ear drum. The ear canal is actually in the shape of the letter “J” so when you put your finger in there and hit bottom you are nowhere near the eardrum.

  • debbie

     thank you.. yea its odd she started this being sleepy deal right about i think when the odor of the ears came, but what i dont get is i have never stopped doing the ears, so why are they getting infected again? also what you say here, sounds like what the vet did a few times there at  their office, but they used a q tip a huge one and cleaned her ears with that, and all this big black junk came out, when i do her ears, hardly anything comes out:( im to scared to go way in there….

  • doggonefedup

    Think about this. there is a lot of oil in the ear. oil is lighter than water and will float to the top. With that in mind do you think flushing is going to push all the bad stuf further down into the ear? just use some common sense when you read some of those articles. Gluten is one of the worst things a dog can consume but thee are many articles that will tell you otherwise.

  • debbie

    ok, ty dave.. and i e mailed you re the food its due to arrive monday afternoon… I wanted to go get it, but cant its on a container truck.. as springfield is pretty close to me..

  • debbie

     Betsy, ohh my i screwed up again:(? , all the things I were told was good, i find out in here are not:(, I started  using it approx. 7-8 mo ago when I came back to mo and when her ears got really bad, the vet told me to get it and to add a tablespoon of it in her food daily, so I did… but the ears n skin kept getting worse, so I actually stopped it, I use it still, but not often…this one says its rich in essential omega 3 fatty acids..n vitamin b 6, it was not cheap.. ok, so then its not good to use it?

  • doggonefedup

    debbie,
    Glad I made you laugh. It’s important to laugh. and yes fill the ear massage to loosen everything up and let her shake her head them swab it with a paper towel you’ll be suprized at all the crap that comes out.

  • debbie

     thank you, and im glad you say what you did re the Zymox, as I was gonna get it in jan. so that is not needed?… so much going on with her.. ill tell you what she loved the eggs n sardines:)

  • debbie

     thank you, ok so then you do feel to fill the ear is ok? its bad you hear so many different things about the same , you know? like I have had 4 vets give me totally different answers on the same things…

  • debbie

     LOL, I have to say as depressed as I am you made me laugh..

  • debbie

     doggonefedup, thank you, and no I wont.. and I need to read the indgredients in the trizedta w/ batril again, as I think it has it in there, as why  I think? for a while I stopped using it, and only used the cream, plus the vets said to fill the ear canals  , so much where it comes out,  then massage, but a while back dave sent me a good link where another site said not to do that, as all it does it put the bad stuff further into the ear, which makes total sense, this is very confusing, you know?

  • doggonefedup

    debbie,
    one more thing absolutely do not put any alcohol in audreys ears. That would be as bad as putting it in your own eyes at this point. If you have to make your own ear flush, use peppermint, menthol, and Salicylic acid (aspirin) in some distilled or at least boiled water.

  • doggonefedup

    HDM,
    I agree. either fish oil or lard (pig fat) for omega 3’s. Lard also contains omega 6’s and omega 9’s in the proper proportions for dogs.

  • doggonefedup

    debbie,
    The flaxseed oil…….audrey doesn’t need it. sunflower oil, palm fruit oil, cocoanut oil, and olive oil are ok.  the flaxseed oil you may want to use on your hemmoriods. It won’t do anything for them other than keeping someones foot from getting stuckin your…..well never mind… just kidding.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Betsy –

    Dogs can utilize plant-based omega 3’s, but not as efficiently as animal-based omega 3’s. EPA and DHA (the essential long chain omega 3 fatty acids) are found in fish and fish oils. Plant-based omega 3’s (like flax oil) contain omega 3’s in the form of ALA (a short chain omega 3 fatty acid). The enzyme delta-6 desaturase is required for the dog to convert ALA to EPA and DHA. The dog’s ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA is rather limited (I believe I read somewhere – not sure how accurate this statement is – that in some cases only about 20% of ALA ends up being converted to DHA and EPA) so for this reason a quality animal-based fatty acid is always preferable. 

  • doggonefedup

    She may actually be acting more hungry than usual because her body is in the process of fighting off an infection. The boric acid could be a good thing for infections too just make sure there are no open sores inside the ears before using it, other wise it could make things worse by causing more pain. When you do the flush the ear, fill the ear completely and gently massage it from the outside to losen up all the crap inside before you let her shake hr head. Yeah she is probably going to screem the first few times because of all the pressure but you have to do it. Just be very gentle….I’ve been through it with a German Shepherd dog that has a nasty attitude an doesn’t put up with any crap. He knew it was helping him so he reluctantly let me do it. 

  • doggonefedup

    debbie,
     Sorry I didn’t look in sooner.
    If the ears are as bad as you say you should be flushing the ears EVERY DAY maybe even twise a day for the first couple of days. Deffinetly use the mometamax daily.  If you have any Zymox throw it in the garbage. Zymox is only good as a preventitive not as a cure/treatmant. Flush the ears some more…. you need to keep flushing all the crap out of the ears. it is the build up that is causing the discomfort. benyedryl would help right now too. as would a good antibiotic.
    The problem always gets worse before it gets better! remember that.
    Mackeral fish is probably one of the best things she could be eating right now. It doesn’t matter if it is in water or oil. In fact the olive oil isn’t a bad idea right now. All those fresh fruits and veggies you have….if you are not going to eat them throw them out! Audrey doesn’t need to be eating them in her condition. they tend to feed the bad probiotics that are causing some of her problems….a little extra salt isn’t going to hurt. I’m not saying add any salt but if the food is a little salty that’s okay too. salt is a natural healing aid and It will make her drink more water and that is always a good thing. ALSO don’t worry about her overeating right now she could use the extra nurishment to help fight off the infection….starve a fever, feed a cold. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Debbie, Why are you giving her the flaxseed oil? Have you been using it regularly? I had a conversation with my vet and again here with Shawna, both of whom told me that too much of an anti-inflammatory (I was using fish oil) can actually cause an inflammation response. Also, it’s my understanding that flax can interfere with endocrine functioning (like early neutering – which is why Sam isn’t neutered yet). And, I also thought (but could be mistaken) that dog’s don’t metabolize omega-3s from plant sources.

  • Dave’s Hounds

     I would be doing the flush daily at this point – you could use the vets solution one day and the home remedy the next. But you need to flush more than once a week so that you can start getting down to the infected areas. it sound like the ears are opening up so go at them. I am not a vet but all I have read is that boric acid is very effective in serious cases.

  • debbie

     food arrived in springfield at 3 am, i called wanted to go pick it up this am , they said no its on a container truck, will be delivered monday afternoon

  • debbie

     this is the blue power, one ingredient is hard to find, also i was told by all the vets not to use boric acid etc, as her right ear is very bad:(:

    I use what I was given by vets, I do want to try other things though, also that liquid called? zxyol?:
    http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/Blue%20Power%20Ear%20Treatment.pdf
     

  • debbie

     ok, yea it sounds kinda like the one called blue power… wonder if I should stop using the flush n med. drops im using? obviously they must not be helping if she has another ear infection:(
     to much of the same meds for her, she has become ammune to many of them by now im sure

  • debbie

     Dave, I also have flax oil, got it months ago for audrey, is it good to use daily? the one I have is:
     Barlean’s organic oil flax oil, pet essentials…this one says on bottle with rosemary

  • Pattyvaughn

    The ear solution Mike suggested might be worth a try.  Keep in mind that it will stain things purple so try it outside and let her get any head shaking over with and blot up any excess before you take her in.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Interesting. I’ve heard a little about emu oil – I saw an emu oil spray and a shampoo for dogs somewhere and I think I saw an emu joint supplement online once. I’ll have to look into it.

  • debbie

    dave, what i have left for her ears is this:
     trizedta/batril in it, I use it in her ears to clean/flush, when they are dry I add 8 drops in right ear n 4 drops in left ear of:
     mometamax, it was what i have left from the vet, suppose to do the flush weekly, or as needed, and the drops, they are like a cream, daily…

  • debbie

    ohh ok, yes these have salt, and i did not like that, ok what i gave her tonight, i did not rinse off, but in am i will now…

  • debbie

     yes, I did, I actually got the sardines on sale for 1.00 a can the good ones I guess? were 2.99 a can, but had oil in them anyhow, there was a isle in the store dollar items, and so I got a bit of those, and eggs, and I have fresh fruit here, apples, and veggies, brocoli n green beans, and still a half bag left of nat organic coconut flakes.. food shows on tracking to arrive monday afternoon

  • debbie

     mike, what dog food is your dog on? and do you add these other items each day?

  • debbie

     of course I am ! as I posted earlier, the 2 items from the vet, both prescriptions, a cleaner/flush, and a cream I put in afterwards.

  • Dave’s Hounds

     the oil is ok just rinse them in cold water. I always rinse sardines, salmon and mackeral just to ensure the sodium is reduced.

  • debbie

     thank you mike, and I actually  at times will have those items, and I do give her yogurt, and I now make a homemade kefir:), she loves it….

     she gets her teeth brushed by me, about once a week, not daily as i should i know…  her teeth are actually pretty good… and she  does have that black tummy, and the elephant type skin, but if you seen my posts, just on this short time since brothers, i have seen a difference… as why im suprised her ears now have a bad odor.. I also have a nice flax I add to her food now n again… I am saving your post, as I am going to try these things on audrey, but what about all i hear about certain breeds needing certain foods? what do cockers need?

  • Dave’s Hounds

     Mackeral is 89 to 99 cents for a large can – Sardines are 89 cents – load up until your food arrives.

  • debbie

    thank you so much.. i just got home i noticed i got by mistake the sardines in oil, the first one was in water, so i zoomed back to store to exchange them…. ty betsy for the link:)

  • debbie

     ahh, first off, I am here for advice etc.. I have not been rude to anyone in this forum since I got here, if I felt ever I was going to be , I would simply not even post, just leave, look when that last bag was running out, was when I was as you know, thinking about maybe changing to a cheaper food, etc.. then dave offered to help… also this has been I think her first day w/out the brothers, and I would never ever let my dog go hungry…she has sardines now and eggs, and other fresh items, well more then enough for monday… just like when I was making her homemade vegan, when I realized it was getting to hard, I started buying nat bal, in their biggest bag.. she actually has never ran out of food till this time around, due to all vet bills etc.

          I called my vet today, one I used to take her to, after hrs he returned my call, and said in her case, her being so overweight, that her getting sardines n eggs for a day or so would never hurt her.

            ok, I am also done with this,  this was exactly why I was not going to post here re it, but I did want to know peoples ideas on what I should get her till monday.
     I agreed w/ it, and went and got it.

  • Dave’s Hounds

     I add coconut oil to my dogs morning meal. There are numerous benefits

  • Dave’s Hounds

     I use Emu Oil topically – it is very effective – antibacterial and anti-inflammatory great for many different ailments http://www.uniquelyemu.com/whyemuoil.htm

  • Dave’s Hounds

    Are you not doing anything to treat the ears? You have been given a wealth of information here of the past several weeks. Food alone will not be enough to treat the ears. I am sorry to say it – that poor dog.

    Natural Home Remedy
    Head to the local drug store to purchase a these inexpensive and
    natural ingredients so you can mix up a natural home remedy to cure your
    dog’s ear infection. Rubbing alcohol , boric acid powder and Gentian Violet
    liquid solution. Rubbing alcohol cleans and disinfects, boric acid is
    an antiseptic and antibacterial and Gentian Violet is a natural
    antifungal and an old-timey home remedy used for various fungal infections including mouth thrush and ear infection.

    Mix 4 ounces of rubbing alcohol, 1 tablespoon of boric acid powder and
    4 drops of Gentian Violet liquid and pour in a dropper bottle. Place a
    few drops of the ear solution in your dog’s ear twice a day for the
    first week. For the following two weeks use the ear solution once a day,
    then for the next two months use the ear drops twice a week.

    Sometimes a bacterial infection will follow a yeast infection in the
    ears and this home remedy will not combat the bacteria, so if symptoms
    continue after two months of treatment, a visit to the vet for
    prescription antibiotics will be needed.

    NOTE you can give your dog enteric coated baby aspirin if she is in pain 2 80 mg for a 40 lb dog at bed time so she can sleep.

  • Dave’s Hounds

     I reluctantly ordered 15lbs on Thursday so it should arrive Monday if it didn’t come today – I am guessing. Normally my food arrives from Brothers in 2-3 dsys

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Huh, mine have never gotten gas from it. But hey…I’m sure the butter tastes better, I know I’d rather have butter!

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Betsy –

    No, heating coconut oil does not alter the positive properties, no need to worry. Coconut oil is one of the few oils that isn’t damaged by heat. :)

  • InkedMarie

    Debbie, I’m not going to address anything else about your post except you running out of food. You have a living breathing being, you can’t run out of food. That is not fair to her. You knew you were getting low and that Brothers is not a food that you can’t go to the store and buy. I’m afraid my patience is wearing thin and it’s time for me to stop reading this thread. I’m sorry but I’ve had it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer
  • Mike P

     When we rescued our dog 2 years ago she had a black patch on her side.She had yellow teeth and she was only 2 years old.She had missing fur on her elbows.Her tummy was dark and not white.She smelled and had awful breath.They said she had a thyroid problem.I found this site and started adding fresh meat to high quality kibble.Topped with sardines,eggs,meats,full fat greek yogurt,turmeric,fish oil,ground eggshell,digestive enzymes,fresh garlic,sometimes veggies and fruit.Guess what??All her probs went away.Got her teeth cleaned and give her a raw marrow bone a week and her teeth are white and her breath is great.Most of these things are a couple of bucks added to our grocery bill.I don’t get myself the snacks I used to buy so it’s a win win situation for me and the dog.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Is it possible that the ears are now opened allowing for them to drain (and for Debbie to smell the order that she couldn’t smell before) when they were previously closed ?

  • debbie

     thank you mike, wow wish you lived a tad closer… ok so the fresh meat will help re her ears??
     I need to find her post.. thanks again

  • debbie

    just made 2 scrambled eggs for her and topped it off with a jar of the sardines, she loved it…got enough to last till monday…left the pumpkin out, as i think i have been giving it to much, almost daily… well she ate all this in minutes and loved it, now more stress re the ears:(
      this time they are really hurting her.. never happened, I guess before when she had the inner ear infections it was just different…there is one vet that is supposed to be really good in springfield , betsy actually found her once for me , on a site? she says she is holistic… but she cost more then all the other vets around here, 50.00 for a visit, other ones here are 35-40….

           right ear is still pretty closed up.. left seems not to be, but wow what a odor:(

        im just glad she loved the sardines n eggs, i did not think she was gonna eat it.. thank you, thank you all

  • Mike P

     Debbie read Sandy’s post. I agree so much with what she said.Try any fresh meat you can get from the grocery store and add it to her food.Stores always have marked down meat.That’s when I buy it and freeze it until I want to use.I live in Illinois…

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Hey HDM, I heat my coconut oil just enough to liquefy it s that I can pour it over their food. Do you think that alters the positive properties and the reason why I’m using it in the first place?

  • debbie

     felt again, and very very hot.. and she cryed when I was trying to check, not what I wanted to hear:(
     I wish there was a  place here, like I hear people here talk about that would help out re a dog going to vet, getting meds etc… but, even if I got help to get her to a vet n meds, then back on meds, more toxins in the body, right? I swear I think im doomed if I do, and if I dont:(

        me and audrey fell asleep on couch yesterday together, and when i woke up she was on other end and the odor was so bad from her ears it made me sick:( it has never been like this… anything natural you know of to give her?

  • Daryljlassen

    What do you think about honest kitchen dehydrated dog foods, I like the grain free and potatoe free if possible.

  • Mike P

     I do have unrefined organic coconut oil and have used it several times.Everytime we used it Jubilee got the toot’s.Now when I cook her food I use just water or organic butter.No gas with the butter…

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    You can rotate kibbles, canned foods, even other forms of foods like raw, freeze dried and homemade.  Even adding a lighlty scrambled egg or can or sardines on top of the kibble.  My dogs main meals are kibble and raw.  I use freeze dried as treats, canned foods as kibble toppers, sometimes reconstituted dehydrated food as a kibble topper and sometimes they just get a raw chicken drumstick.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I think it’s bad.  It sounds like infection:-(

  • debbie

     yes, hotter there then rest of body.. is that good or bad??:(

  • Pattyvaughn

    No, I mean where the ear canal runs down the sides of the face.  And I’m all the way down in FL.

  • debbie

     ok, got sardines and a half doz of eggs… i do have fresh organic coconut flakes here i can also add to the sardine/scrambeled egg mixture, I put the flakes on all her food at times, ok, you mean to feel the top  liike on top of her ears? like  on her head? ok, did and I do feel a slight difference of heat then rest of body… by chance you are not in missouri are you?

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I’ve never used coconut oil topically but I do add it to my dogs’ homemade raw food on a regular basis. It’s a great source of medium chain triglycerides. Most coconut oil is solid and I find that a pain to add to the recipe (doesn’t distribute very evenly), so I usually buy the liquid. I have large dogs (bloodhounds) and I generally give them each 1 tsp. a few times a week. Here’s a good article about the health benefits of coconut oil: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

    Also if you’re interested in starting raw, I’d highly suggest Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” It has some very simple and easy to understand recipes. It was the first book I bought when I began researching raw. It’s a quick read too, really short.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I haven’t used it yet, several here do, but I’ve only heard good things about using it.  It’s good on the outside too, in fact I was going to suggest to Debbie that she use coconut oil in her dogs ears.  It has anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties.  It’ssupposed to be an easy fat for dogs to digest if you want to increase the fat in your dogs diet.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Since you have a bag of food and you have plans for a next, now is the perfect time to start doing research on feeding raw.  I started out with a simple recipe and the supplements they suggested and continued researching.  I still am learning and find more questions I need to ask on a regular basis.

  • nherrera5

    The store owner also talked about adding coconut oil to the diet? Do any of y’all have experience with coconut oils?

  • nherrera5

    Thanks everyone for the comments. I went to a local dog store and bought a bag of nature’s valley instinct limited ingredient with some merrick cans to feed with the dry food. I plan on switching the flavor of canned food every can and when the instinct is done try the brothers complete fish. I hope that this is a good strategy. I think eventually we could move into a raw diet but for now it is somewhat intimidating.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Do you feel heat coming from her ears if you put your hand against the sides of her head? I mean more heat than her body temp.  I hope it’s detoxing, but I just don’t know.

  • debbie

    ok, im off to store.. i will do sardines n the eggs;)
     wish i could have drove to get the brothers at ups in springfield:( so do u think the ears are detoxing?

       ok, well i have a few stores here, for a small town quite a few and one very close…. glad you guys have helped me i was not knowing what to feed her..

  • Pattyvaughn

    Sardines are already cooked.  Canned foods are heat processed as part of canning.

  • LabsRawesome

    Hey debbie, yes, 4 cans of sardines. 1 for each feeding. Yes, scramble a couple of eggs, let them cool, add a can sardines to her bowl with the eggs. Sardines are already cooked, so no need to heat them.

  • Pattyvaughn

    If you just get the sardines or whatever fish you don’t need the eggs, or you can do a couple meals of fish and a couple meals of eggs, whichever you prefer.

  • debbie

     ok, ill do the sardines… and no eggs correct? not much gas in car, lol so i only want to make 1 trip to the store..

  • debbie

     good thing i seen this post, on my way out now, as im not feeling good at all… ok, so sardines, no eggs, and about 4 cans in water, and no beef or chicken? do i cook the sardines? or raw out of the can?those little tin can type things right? so 1 can for each feeding?, thank you

  • LabsRawesome

     Hey debbie, you’ve got to feed her tonight, 2 x tomorrow, and probably Monday morning. I would get 1 can of sardines for each feeding. So 4 cans. You do not even need to add the eggshell, because the Sardines have bones, which will give her the calcium.  :)

  • Pattyvaughn

    Yes, in water.  You need enough for 4 meals so maybe 2 cans if you get sardines.  Herring comes in bigger cans and is cheaper.  Sardines are better but it’s not like we’re talking long term feeding here.

  • debbie

     np, ok im off to the store, hope I can get all this cheap… maybe just a half dozen of eggs and a can or 2 of sardines, but in water, not oil right? and I just ground up the egg shells?? odd, lol  but hey if its good for her, im all for it:) the ears are  really scaring me now:( been through this vet/med crap for to long:(

  • Pattyvaughn

    Yes sardines or herring in a can even mackeral, whichever is cheapest for you.  You can boil eggs, or scramble them, but give them shell and all.

  • debbie

     ty patty… you see her ears are odd, she really never had the head tilt, well she did, but as odd as it may sound to you, she has the head tilt all the time, even when her ears are fine.. what she gets to let me know her ears are bad is she cant stand up, or walk or move:( inner ear infections:(, makes her dizzy etc..

       but never had a odor… now the odor will knock you out:(

        smells like puss like yes, I guess, she never had the odor before, guess cause it was the inner ear?

  • debbie

     yes eggs would be a ton less gross for me, lol.. well i guess either she  has 2 bad ears now:(, coming from stopping all the meds, well not stopping, they were out.. all she is on now is 2 thyroid pills a day, and eye drops for her dry eyes…, or its the detoxing like you said, i would prefer the detoxing of course.. hound dog mom mentioned sardines in water, that i could deal with better, and i bet it will be cheaper….

  • Pattyvaughn

    It wasn’t up yet.  I’m trying to do 6 things at once so it’s taking me 15 minutes to compose even the shortest reply.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Sorry debbie, I forgot you were vegan! I recommended the ground eggshells to add calcium. You’d want to add about 1/2 tsp. ground eggshell for each pound of meat or if it’s not as gross for you (being vegan) you could forget the meat and make scrambled eggs with veggies and add 1 whole ground eggshell for each egg used. Labs had a good suggestion with the tinned sardines – very cheap and since the bones are in it you wouldn’t need to worry about adding calcium. You could even add the tinned sardines to an egg and veggie omelet. Yum. :)

  • Pattyvaughn

    I hope the thing with her ears is just detoxing.  Pus smells really bad, but you should be able to tell if that’s going on in her good ear and usually if an ear is that bad the dog will have a head tilt and be whining etc.

    If you usually feed her 1/2 cup of Brothers then she gets 1/2 cup of which ever meat.  I would go ahead and figure out how much she will need to get through the weekend and Monday morning and cook it all at once, then put it in a container in the fridge.  At least that way you don’t have to keep cooking more and more of it.  I wouldn’t give more than 1 teaspoon of the pumpkin and about that much of the green beans cooked and mashed too.

    It doesn’t matter whether it’s turkey or beef, but turkey might be easier for her.

  • debbie

    think i may have heard of ohio pet foods, not sure, is it a good food?…. but why is he against the rotating of foods?
      yea the meat will gross me out alot more then the eggs but if she needs it i will…. but i cook the eggs right? boil, like making hard boiled eggs?

  • debbie

     Hound dog mom, no im vegan and never keep meat or eggs in the house, I live alone, just me and audrey… I cant think of when I last bought meat, lol many many yrs ago.. like many, ha ha… guess I will need to make a trip to the store and see what is the cheapest, and now im worried re the odor coming from her ears:( I tell you, it seems to never end:( what kind of veggies? and eggshells? not the egg? sorry, confused.. so I get say a half dozen of eggs, and cook them, them add them to her food, shells and all? I thank you..

  • LabsRawesome

     Hey debbie, I realize that you’re vegan. But all that stuff you’re wanting to feed Audrey, isn’t really good for her. If it’s raw meat that bothers you, I would suggest giving her some that are already cooked…. Sardines in spring water or even Tuna, would be a couple of cheap ones. If you can bring raw meat into the house, then I would go with ground beef, you can add rice for bulk, until Monday when the Brothers arrives.  :)

  • Pattyvaughn

    What HDM said!! Eggs are good too and maybe have less of a gross out factor for you.

    And he likes Ohio Pet Foods

  • debbie

     ps thank you patty

  • debbie

     yes, I can and will do that:), I will just use a pot or pan for her, and not use it again for me:), I know you may think its nuts, but I cant cook out of something that had meat cooked in it… would you say turkey or beef? and how much? plain? or mix it with pumpkin and  green means etc?
     ohh boy, ok, just smelled the ears and it is both:( unreal….

       I swear this is getting to be horrible.. but you think its just detoxing? so really good then, not bad right?:(

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Sorry patty, I didn’t see your post when I just posted. I do that all the time. :)

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Debbie – Do you have any meat or eggs? If the Brother’s is going to arrive Monday and you’re out of food I’d suggest meat, cooked & mashed veggies and some ground eggshell. Definitely not nutritionally complete but it could hold her over until Monday and would be a lot more healthful than green beans and pumpkin.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I don’t know if you can do it, but I would give her meat like plain ground beef or plain turkey until her food arrives.  Is it her bad ear that the smell is coming from, the good one, or both?  If it’s the good one or both then it’s definitely detoxing, If it’s only the bad one then you may have something to worry about.

  • debbie

     Patty.. ohh I did not know.. what dog food company  does he like? Lol..
     ok, off the topic of mr walterwoods.. I need to ask you something , I posted yesterday for people to please e mail me re audrey.. first off as of last night I was totally out of all brothers food, for breakfast I gave her green beans and pumpkin:(, yes I know that sounds nuts.. I have white organic rice here n brown rice, and fresh potatoes, but I really dont want to do that, need to ask you, until brothers arrives what do  you suggest I give her?I have been tracking the brothers on ups, and as of 3 am , it arrived in springfield mo. im only about 10-15 min from there, so i called ups to see if i could pick it up, they said no as its not in a ups office, its in a truck:(i can go get it monday after 9 am they said, but its due to come here monday..
     so what do you think i should give her till monday? ohh i also have oatmeal, but that to is not good for her, the other thing im worried about is this, I noticed night before last a horrible odor coming from her, and she was recently bathed, so I smelt her, and sure enough coming from her ears:(, and odd as it may sound she never ever had a bad odor in her ears, even though she has had a ton of ear infections, her ears never had a odor.. well now they do:( and I did not want to mention $$ on here, lol as why i asked if people could email me , but i dont have the funds to go back to the vet n get more meds:(, wondering what to do, wondering if the odor is coming from the brothers food? as in a good way.. maybe its letting out the bad? but this never happened before, very confused, and upset.. today I flushed the ears, dryed them and added her med.. but im worried, the odor is very bad:(
     ohh and i have fresh broccoli also.

  • debbie

     walterwoods57, how about you post some proof that rotating a dogs food is not good, or not needed? I dont know about everyone else here, but I am truly always open to hear  new things, and  would like to know if there is another side to it….
     I just did a very fast search, and posted a few links for you, but I am sure if I spent more time I could have found alot more saying that rotating the food is a positive thing to do, why not you post things telling us why it is not? as I personally would be interested in seeing that….

  • Pattyvaughn

    He’s on another forum and known for always posting in favor of foods from a particular company so take away from that what you will…

  • debbie

    patty, exactly, lol.. common sense if your only buying their food, then you are giving more money to them, maybe  this person is here for unknown reasons? lol

     I have to admit I at times when she was on nat bal bought a small bag, but I am talking maybe once a yr or so, as the small bags are not cheap considering how little your getting, I think this poster  just wants, well never mind, lol as why I sent him links and said he needed to research it himself… unreal

  • Pattyvaughn

    Seriously?  I don’t know too many people who buy the small bag of anything unless they can’t afford the bigger one.  I certainly don’t buy the small bag.  And how is a company making more money if you buy their smallest bag and then move on to a different company?  They aren’t.  The gimmick is the companies that try to con you into believing that it’s best for your dog to eat only one thing its entire life, then they make money, whatever size bag you buy.  How ignorant.

  • debbie
  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Walterwoods57 –

    You’re obviously a very gullible person and you are the one that’s fallen for the marketing gimmick. You’ve fallen for the gimmick many companies use to create brand loyalty – the “this food is complete and balanced and has everything your dog will ever need all in one dried up shelf stable pellet” gimmick. :)

    No food is complete and balanced. Would you eat the same meal every day for your whole life? Doubt it. Feeding the same food day in and day out weakens the digestive system. Take a dog that’s eaten one type of food for 5 years and try to switch its food – odds are there is going to be some serious digestive upset. This digestive upset is because the dog is not healthy, lack of variety creates a weak digestive system. Take a dog that’s used to variety, feed them something new and nothing is likely to happen.

  • debbie

     ahh, very good read:

     http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_7/features/15728-1.html

  • debbie
  • debbie

     ok walterwoods57, im new here to, and I have had a few issues here that really upset me , but I have had to learn to just ignore some people, got a very nice email from shawna other day… saying pretty much that people will be people, and well she knows im not what was said about me , and more so as long as I know it, I just hate friction though, dont you? would be nice if we all can get along here, no? its ok to differ on things, but I feel we need to respect each other, and not judge till we know… re the rotation of food here, when I was giving store bought I did stay with one kind, but when I was doing my homemade vegan I made different things, to give her a bit of a change, I mean would we want to eat the same daily?? no, I doubt any of us would… if you dont agree, why not research it?
     sometimes you will come up with 2 different ideas, alot of people say to stay on same food, some say rotate it.. so research it before you make comments that may not be right.
     just giving my 2 cents:)

  • Walterwoods57

    Food rotation is a gimmick supported by some companies that worry more about their wallets than yours. It was found that when people rotate foods they buy food in smaller bag at a higher cost per pound. There is no support for this at all scientifically. Not one shred of evidence that it is beneficial. It makes owners happy thinking they are doing a great thing but it means nothing.

  • nherrera5

    Thanks! Very helpful!

  • Pattyvaughn

    Some people change foods every meal, some after every bag, some a few times a year.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Hi nherrera5,

    Rotation means basically, to use a variety of foods; which you would want to do for a number of different reasons. I think the most important reasons are to provide varying nutrients from a variety of proteins and to avoid prolonged exposure to certain ingredients that could eventually lead to an allergy or intolerance. Take a look a Dr. Mike’s article on diet rotation: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/frequently-asked-questions/diet-rotation-for-dogs/.

    Some people rotate every meal, every bag or every few months. A healthy gut doesn’t have the same need to be slowly transitioned to new food. My dogs get kibble with canned toppers for one meal and raw for the other. I use both Brothers Complete and Nature’s Variety Instinct in my dog’s rotation.

  • nherrera5

    What does it mean to rotate foods? I was priviosly looking at nature’s valley before you mentioned brothers complete. The only factor for brothers is the price but if it can be alternated with nature’s valley that could work.

  • Dave’s Hounds

     great videos Bill!

  • aimee

     Oh Gosh No Toxed2loss,

     I didn’t say I edited a book. English is not my forte. I said I was asked to review a book, which I did do : )

    I’ve never seen “veterinary nutritionist” capitalized as in a title, only used as a descriptor to describe a veterinarian who was board certified in nutrition. 

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5700441_become-canine-nutritionist.html

    Anyone can hang out a shingle as a pet wellness coach…. no education required.

  • Toxed2loss

    You’re welcome! :-)

  • Nherrera5

    June!

  • Nherrera5

    This is my pup

  • Nherrera5

    Thank you for your input. It’s greatly appreciated!

  • Honeybeesmom

    Thanks, Betsy!  I did try that…and when I clicked “next” for the calulater, nothing happended. Like I needed to make a purchase first.
    I did email from that site…and still haven’t heard back. I’ll try again.

    I jumped on here tonight because I’m getting another box of the HK tmrw…and wanted to read up on more of it.

  • debbie

    Please, can someone e mail me prvt?? it is in re to my dog audrey…. having a problem with her, and NO this is not having anything to do with the brothers food, or anyone helping me anyway.. I just need some help, and  feel like if I start posting what is happening now to her it will not get read the right away..please reach me at:
     lookatallthebooks@ com  again, this is about audrey.. and I am worried about her.com

     

  • Shawna

    Thanks :)

    1.  Some people prefer to balance every meal and some prefer to balance “over time”.  Either way is fine as long as the end result is a balanced diet.  I used to home prepare meals but my time is limited these days so I use commercial raw (Darwins – one of the best in my opinion). 

    A general rule of thumb for home preparing is 5% liver, 5% other organs, 5% fruits, 15 to 20% veggies and the rest meat with the proper amount of calcium either from bone or a supplement like bonemeal.  With LOTS of variety and of course feeding the best quality ingredients we can get — organic, grass fed etc.  Grass finished meats are going to have a better overall fat ratio and a better omega 6 to 3 ratio.

    If you want to balance ever meal you can get use the recipe guidelines in Dr. Becker’s Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats, you can use a commercial raw, you can use meat you purchase with a premix or you can make your own recipes using software like that on the website balanceit.com.  In my opinion variety is more important than one recipe..

    If you prefer balancing over time, dogaware.com is one of the best sources of info on how to do it right..  There’s also some good books.  Variety and proper amounts of bone are key.

    2.  Some detoxing (including stool issues) is to be expected when switching to a better quality food but a decrease in energy is usually not seen (from those I’ve spoke with and my own experiences).  I’d be concerned he’s not getting all the nutrients he needs.

    When I was making my own meals for my dogs I would make up several weeks worth on a Saturday morning.  I’d make a batch of venison, a batch of turkey, a batch of beef etc.  And would use different fruits, veggies and organs with each protein source.  When I was done mixing the individual batches I would bag them in individual servings and freeze them for later use.  Towards then end when my time became more limited I started getting creative and using organic baby food (grain free varieties) for some of the fruit and veggies etc.  I would also use a whole food multi and extras with every meal (spirulina, raw goat milk, kefir, raw goat cheese, eggs, sardines, fermented veggies etc)…

    It’s not hard but it does take some research and can be a bit time consuming (at least at first).

    I gleen from your videos that you may know a lot of this data as it relates to human nutrition.. :)  Billy is a pretty amazing little man!!!!

  • Pattyvaughn

    I do mix my kibble with water.  It slows down my dogs that eat too fast and I have one that won’t eat any food that sticks to the side of the bowl, so he gets soupy food.  Yes, until Audrey is much better you should stick with Allergy Formula, it is formulated specifically for problems like hers.  Fish Formula is a great food and it will help, but not as fast as the Allergy Formula will.  Leave it in it’s original bag, squeeze all the air out, and put it, bag and all, in your storage container if you like.  Room temp is OK, refridgerator is better, in a warm sunny location is BAD.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1140685339 Betsy Greer

    Oh my gosh, bill!  Your dog is ama-zing!  You’re a great doggie daddy!  Your dog also unfortunately makes me dogs look like complete idiots.

  • bill

     Wow! Fantastic response shawana.
    Its coming on 2am here and I’ve gotta get my bootie to bed.  But, first:

    1.  I started Billy Junior just recently on k9 Raw, then after a week switched to Raw homemade with Beef cubes (I know should have started with chicken back) but, what’s the best resource to do it correct and hassle free…or at least efficiently without spening my entire life preparing?

    2.  I know there is a transition period but his stools are minimal, to say the least, and like small bouts of pudding…not good. Is this still the transition period?  Oh and his energy has gone down a bit…he sleeps more. 

    3.  Previously he was on Addiction (for 2-years) so he’s not been on kibbles since he came to me from the pet shop.

    4.  Trying to get all the proper mix for homemade raw is a like creating a new species.  How can I get it right?

    Here are links to my kidd:

    Billy’s Treadmill Workout:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYWSA56ZxNA

    Billy at home with agility practice (distractions at trials are still preventing

    us from winning…he’ll run off to judges table or go sniff the ground):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56IWh7MULcA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE9Od2IoV6I

    he got a huge bag of dog-food

    for beating the other dogs on AIBI treadmill dog-day contest:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50SNWd3rCW8

    However I’ve decided to

    put a hold on that after reading literature

    on damage that has recently been found

    in scientific findings on shoulder injury

    http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=768613&sk=&date=&pageID=2

    And of course we do our usual, casual

    2x per day walks around the neighborhood.

    A next door neighbor has just finished building her

    dog therapy and rehab pool and Billy J and I worked

    out a deal to use it for exercise, 3-4 times per week.

    Here’s my Billy Junior:

    Billy’s Treadmill Workout:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYWSA56ZxNA

    Billy at home with agility practice (distractions at trials are still preventing

    us from winning…he’ll run off to judges table or go sniff the ground):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56IWh7MULcA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE9Od2IoV6I

    he got a huge bag of dog-food

    for beating the other dogs on AIBI treadmill dog-day contest:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50SNWd3rCW8

    However I’ve decided to

    put a hold on that after reading literature

    on damage that has recently been found

    in scientific findings on shoulder injury

    http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=768613&sk=&date=&pageID=2

    And of course we do our usual, casual

    2x per day walks around the neighborhood.

    A next door neighbor has just finished building her

    dog therapy and rehab pool and Billy J and I worked

    out a deal to use it for exercise, 3-4 times per week.

    Bill

    http://www.billcalhoun.com

    http://www.bill-calhoun.com/site/

  • debbie

     patty, when you say here and water, you are not meaning to add water to the kibble? or are you? also with audrey i should stick to one brothers now, not the different varieties as you mentioned here, right? till she gets all better, right?also, one more question, I love the say brothers say they make and store the food, but how is it to be kept at home? in a cool dry place?? in the same bag? I used to  put her food in one of those plastic bins with the covers, then read that the plastic in there, was not good for the food…

  • Toxed2loss

    Aimee,

    I’m not responsible for your assumptions.

    An animal “Wellness Coach” does not exclude her having expert knowledge of animal, or veterinary, nutrition. To be a “Wellness Coach” requires her to have extensive knowledge on all aspects of animal wellness, including nutrition.

    I used the term as a descriptor, not as a title, which would signify degrees, etc. Which is identified by the fact I did not capitalize it… Something you should know to be qualified to edit books as you claimed you were doing.

    I have read information describing her as a veterinary nutritionist. My bad… I didn’t run it down and verify the source! No, I did not email her and ask for her CV. But then neither did you.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Is there even such a thing that isn’t bought and paid for by big pet food companies?

  • debbie

    thank you patty…. ok will do:), you know it just became habbit, after each am walk she knew she got a treat.. for yrs, and now nothing:(, but  this is how it is, i think she will be happy getting a little raw green beans now n then:)

  • debbie

     ok, and actually she loves raw green beans, never thought about freezing them for a treat, good idea, but she loves them, not the canned the fresh, she has always liked them…

  • Pattyvaughn

    For her issues you need to go as close to zero carbs as you can.  That means any treats that aren’t more of her kibble need to be meat, so like Marie said, stick to the Brothers even for treats, but adjust how much you give her at meal time.

    I can’t even feed mine the Brothers dog biscuits and they have less carbs than anyones.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Most people go with kibble because it’s cheaper and more convenient, but it’s also the most processed type of dog food there is.  The best kibbles are probably better than the worst dehydrated or raw, but just like taking a multivitamin is not as good as eating the right foods, adding vitamins back in is not as good as having them in there in the first place. 

    The problem with kibbles is both ingredients and processing.  You can take the best ingredients and still ruin them by what you do to them, but you’ll never make something good out of the worst ingredients.

    The best kibble is never as good as the best raw, but there are a few really good kibbles out there.  Brothers Complete low temperature cooks theirs for a much shorter time.  They tried to formulate the BEST kibble instead of the cheapest.  They microencapsulate their probiotics and store in a cooled warehouse, so by the time the food gets to you the probiotics are still good.  They make small batches, bag it up immediately, and send it to their cooled warehouse so their food is always fresh.

    The best way to feed kibble is to pick a few different ones and rotate through them.  And to add high protein toppers plus water.

  • InkedMarie

    This is jmo, I don’t know if anyone else agrees but you have a dog with issues. Feed the Brothers and nothing else. If you have to have a treat, use some of the kibble (remember to adjust from her food ration). Dogs don’t need treats. I don’t think a few raw green beans or salt free frozen green beans will hurt but she doesnt need anything else. 
    IMO again, get her healthy, then worry about the extras.

  • debbie

    yep, going to do that, now is a good time as im almost out of the brothers, lol so i need to give less till new arrives, lol… she has really been through the mill re food, poor thing… from vegan, to homemade vegan, to duck, lol, to brothers, lol..unreal.. and she always had great treats, now her only treats are raw carrots or apples, and im trying to cut back re the sugar…does anyone here have a healthy, treat, or a recipe for one?

  • Shawna

    Oops, forgot to mention something in previous post.

    Dr. Demian Dressler DVM of the dog cancer blog describes how kibble can be a carcinogen in his article titled “Dog Food: Is There A Cancer Risk?”

    Not all kibbles are processed in a way to create the carcinogens discussed but many are.

    Here’s the link if interested  http://www.dogcancerblog.com/dog-food-is-there-a-cancer-risk/

  • aimee

    Toxed2loss,

    When I think of a veterinary nutritionist I think of a veterinarian who is boarded in nutrition. Others may make the same assumption.

     I don’t know what Beth Taylor’s educational background is.

     Beth Taylor is only described as a “pet wellness coach”  on the site http://www.drkarenbecker.com

    “Her second cookbook, a collaboration with pet wellness coach Beth Taylor”

  • Shawna

    Hi bill,

    Great questions!!!

    1.  When a raw feeder talks about kibble they are referring to ALL kibble.  All kibble is processed and all kibble will have some nutrient loss due to that processing.  Because of that nutrient loss the manufacturers have to add synthetic nutrients back in and many believe that synthetic nutrients are not utilized as efficiently by the body.  A quick example — in nature there are 8 forms of vitmain E (not all foods have all 8 though).  In processed foods only “alpha tochopherol” or “mixed tocopherols” are added.  None of the 4 tocotrienols are added and science has discovered that it is one of the tocotrienols that is the cancer fighter of the 8 E’s.

    2.  Yes, a well designed and balanced kibble can be just as, or even more, nutritious then a poorly balanced freeze dried, dehydrated or even raw diet.  However a balanced raw diet is, in my opinion as a raw feeder, the most nutritious way to feed our pets.  A quality raw food will have all the nutrition that mother nature put in the food.  Two examples — the amino acid lysine is damaged by temps as low as 110 degrees (kibbles are cooked above that temp).  The amino acid taurine is damaged during processing (the amino acid that prevents heart disease)..  ALL balanced cat kibbles (and canned too I think) have to have added taurine.  They are now discovering that some breeds of dogs require taurine too.

    3.  Both — the extrusion process, the baking etc all damage certain nutrients.  Example — meals are heated twice so there, in my opinion, is a greater risk of amino acid loss in meals then in say “chicken or beef” which are only processed (heated) once.  However it is impossible, I am told, to make a higher protein food without the inclusion of meals.

    Ingredients — It is also impossible to make a kibble without adequate (but unnecessary to the pet) starch to bind the kibble together.  Because a dog, and especially a cat, has no nutritional need for carbs (per Waltham etc) kibbles are not “species appropriate” as they are all too high in carbohydrates.  The type of carbohydrate used is also a consideration — potatoes can aggravate arthritic issues and can cause blood sugar issues to name just a few issues.  Grains have anti-nutrients (phytates) among other issues.  Most of us raw feeders add fruits and veggies but in SMALL amounts.  Nowhere near the 40+ percent carbs found in kibbles.

    4.  Many of the freeze dried and dehydrated foods don’t NEED the added chelated minerals and vitamins because the ones originally in the foods ingredients have not been damaged by processing.  You also have to look at the individual food.  Example — The Honest Kitchen food is “guaranteed” to be human quality.  EVERY ingredient in the food can be consumed by humans.  Nothing in the food is “waste or by-product” from slaughter houses, no potato peels etc.

    My problem with most dehydrated foods is that they are still too high in carbohydrates and too low in protein.

    My problem with freeze dried is that most are too high in fat which displaces the protein in the diet.  The high fat content of these foods can often be from feeding poorer quality “fatty” cuts or parts of meat rejected for human use.

  • Shawna

    Hi Walterwoods57 ~~ Even the “experts” have vastly different views on nutrition.  My M.D. is also a Certified Clinical Nutritionist (advanced degree).  Her philosophy on human nutrition is VERY similar to Dr. Becker’s philosophy on dog nutrition and VERY different then what most Dieticians or even Certified Nutritionists recommend…

    Lew Olson has a PhD in Natural Nutrition and she too recommends a diet very similar to what Dr. Becker recommends.

    A degree is helpful but not mandatory to understand nutition.

  • bill

     Hi folks,

    May I tweak yall’s brains?

    Can you help me…to the best of your knowledge?

    I’m so confused about all the nay-Sayers with regard
    to ‘kibbles’

    The very mention of the word seems to conjure up visions of
    exorcism, mutiny, death penalty and atheism…what’s a poor dog–and handler–to do?

    I see some ‘kibble’ foods–especially raw/real meat-types–are ranked 5-star on this site.

    My questions:

    1.  When they say kibbles are the cause of all the fuss are they referring to the grain ones or all kibbles?

    2.  Can premium kibbles–like Orijen/Acana, etc–be just as nutritious and safe as freeze dried/dehydrated raw?

    3.  Is they way they make/heat kibbles really the culprit or is it the ingredients?

    4.  After reading all your FANTASTIC reports i see that with the chelated minerals and vitamins the kibbles of premium brands are similar if not better concocted than some of the freeze dried and dehydrated raw…plus, a lot less expensive.

  • Toxed2loss

    Good morning Nherrera5,
    There are lots of factors to consider. Time, price nutrition – the positives the food has, the negatives it doesn’t. Spend some time browsing the articles that Dr. Mike has written, read through some of the past comments.

    The best nutrition is specie appropriate, balanced raw. But that might be overwhelming for a new dog owner. :-) There are commercial raw diets, they are expensive. Then there’s canned, dehydrated or freeze dried, and kibbles. Most people think dog food has to be kibble, but that’s actually relatively new. It was invented in 1890. Before grain based kibble, dogs lived twice as long.

    The biggest factor you should focus on is animal based protein. Dogs need meat, bones, organs, and very little carbs -NOT grains! & NOT potatoes.

    Dr. Mike has a link to the best 5 star foods, top left.
    If cost is going to be a determining factor, there are some better 4 star foods.

    The easy answer IMO is Brother’s Complete. I feed the Fish formula, its flax free. I feed it along with raw. All their foods are grain & potato free. The nutrition is balanced, complete and it has encapsulated probiotics. Richard Darlington designed their kibble to be the best specie appropriate kibble available for people who can’t or won’t feed raw. (Like me, with my health issues, sometimes I’m too sick to manage a balanced raw diet, so I can feed Brother’s and raw, and know my girls are getting the best nutrition available.

    A healthy gut means a healthy immune system. While it is an expensive food, it pays for itself in the long run, with fewer vet bills, and you feed less. Grains, potatoes, natural flavoring, and other toxic additives cause life long health issues, that can run into tens of thousands of dollars in veterinary care. Brothers doesn’t have those.

    You can feed up to 20% raw toppers, to stretch your dollars and get additional nutrition. Mike P, and JohnandChristo have got this down, and share their recipes. :-) Check out some of the pics of there beautiful dogs. You can find a bunch on the Brother’s Complete threads.

    I hope that helps. :-} I know it can be overwhelming, but hang around. There are lots of great folks to help you over the learning curve.

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Walterwoods57,
    Do you realize that Dr. Becker wrote her raw pet food book with veterinary nutritionist Beth Taylor?

  • InkedMarie

    It all depends on the dog, their metabolism and energy level. If she is overweight then she is getting too much food. Start with a half a cup, per meal and go from there. Dogs should be lean, not thick. If you add canned, decrease the dry.

  • HealthyDogs

    Walterwoods57
    Correct, she is a Veterinarian. Thing is with Nutrition we have no definite individual answers. All we can do is generalize. Per peer reviewed journals, Nutrition is highly individual. For example beagles metabolize calcium differently than Great Danes; Boxers and Dobermans metabolize Fish Oils differently. And that is only breed specific, not even an individual issue. We have to start with the general guidelines, and work with observation for an individual. This observation may be general appearances, blood work, urinalysis etc. but until Nutrigenomics becomes common place, we won’t have definitive answers for an individual.
    Sadly, lots of scientific papers and studies are funded by drug companies or in the case of dog food, dog food manufacturers. This no doubt skews our information, not necessarily the results of the study, just which studies are done or not done- funded or not funded.

  • Walterwoods57

    You all realize that Karen Becker is not a nutritionist, right?  No formal training, has never published a scientific paper and is not recognized as an expert in the scientific community.

  • debbie

     wow, that seems like so little, no? I guess cause its so high in protien?? when she was eating the nat bal i think she had 2 cups a day, lol n when i was making her the homemade about 2 cups, wow i really screwed up:(

  • Nherrera5

    hello everyone! I have a 6 month old bloodhound/lab and i am looking for the right food to feed her. this is my first pup so i so i am new to all of this. can someone point me in the right direction?

    thank you

  • InkedMarie

    probiotics are a good thing and I doubt they will add weight to her. If you want to add canned, that may be fine (as long as they don’t have ingredients that you are keeping away from) but you will need to reduce the amount of dry if you give canned.

  • InkedMarie

    it says:

    Dog’s Weight (lbs)            Amount of Food Per Day (cups)

    Up to 25 LBS                     ¼ to 1 Cup

    26-50 LBS                           1-2 Cups

    51-75 LBS                           2-3 Cups

    76 LBS and Over                  3-5 CupsSince she *should* weigh 27lbs, she should eat about one cup a day, 1/2 cup a meal. (she is closer to the 26lbs, not the 50lb). 

  • debbie

     ps so you dont think she needs the canned or probiotics?? will be better for my $$ if not, lol, but if she needs it i want to try to get it all you know?

  • debbie

     ahh, ok.. thank you..

  • debbie

     yes, again your right:), not sure what the bag says for what she should weigh, but i think it says 40 pounds up 1-2 cups, so im over feeding:(

  • debbie

    thank you marie, yea i keep feeling that amount is not enough for her, but i think what has happened here is all the meds, steroids etc, put weight on her, and i over fed, and she got used to it:( so, I am taking more advice from you all, seriously.. and going to cut her back…

  • InkedMarie

    Late reading this and haven’t read what anyone else has said but if she *should* weigh 27lbs,  I would feed her about 1 cup per DAY.  That is half a cup per meal. 
       I have a dog who is about 30lbs and not as active as he used to be, he only gets slightly more than 1/2 cup per meal. (he only has Brothers for one meal, raw for the other)

  • InkedMarie

    Debbie, with Audrey’s issues, I think you should just stick with the dog food and nothing else. Most dogs will eat anytime you give them food, that doesn’t mean they’re hungry. If you give her non dog food items, she could react to that. How much Brothers are you giving her per meal? IMO, feed her the amount on the bag for what she *should* weigh and add or delete, depending on her weight.

  • Pattyvaughn

    It is a lot to take in all at once.  Fortunately, it’s OK for Audrey if you don’t do everything at once.  That shampoo sounds like a good one.  Peppermint is cooling for the skin and eucalyptus is good too.  I don’t buy canned by the case because I mix up brands and flavors.  I don’t know how much my probiotics were, I got several things at the same time.  Just google Mercola, click on pets, then click on products, and look for probiotics.  I don’t know if it’s still on but they had a sale on them if you got 3 bottles, so I got 3 of several things I wanted.

  • debbie

     patty.. ps someday, lol I will get it all together for audrey:), its just alot, and well I guess I wasted many yrs not really knowing she needed probiotics etc.

     kept going to vets and having my money eaten up:(

      I guess its like raising a child, you try your best.. you know?

         I wish she was younger, as she is over 6 yrs old now and have had alot of bad years:(
     I am glad your dog is doing better to:)

  • debbie

    Patty, yes I actually try to give her a bath 3 times or more per week, it does not dry  her out, actually been helping.. have a great shampoo that i was able to buy from a vegan/organic store in pa before i moved here to mo( but they also sell it online) their ingredients are:
       saponified (fair trade n organic)cocos nucifera(coconut)oil, triticum vulgare(wheat)germ oil, and ricinus communis(castor) seed oil, essential oils, and love:), that is exactly what it is:), and it is totally vegan and cruelty free… and a mom and daughter own the shop and they make everything right there!!the shampoo is called “augie”, peppermint,  clary sage, & eucalyptus), the shop is called the fanciful fox.
       been using it off and on for 2 yrs maybe and it works great.. sometimes in between I will bathe her in a little of the keratolux, that i got from a vet in pa also..its tar free and i like it to…I left the shampoo soak on her 20 min while i rub n massage it in n rinse good.. the vet here said to use a cheap dog conditioner, got one from petco a while back and all it did was irritate her.. the vegan shampoo is nice n really does not need a conditioner after it..
    how much is the probiotics you now use? and  the canned do you get it cheaper if you get a case or what? ty patty:)
         

  • Pattyvaughn

    Yep, I feed Brothers Allergy + canned + probiotics.  I’ve been dealing with this for a little over 2 months now.  I think the ear issue was because I had been using one kind of probiotics and I switched to the one that everybody is recommending, Mercola.  It has many more strains of the good microbes than the other one I was using and I think that was enough to trigger more rapid detoxing.  If you can give her a bath when the itching picks up or weekly, it really helps when you remove the toxins from their skin.

  • debbie

     wow, so u just started on the brothers to? which one? but I wonder why if he never had ear issues before he did then, that one time? its odd patty, audrey is getting more of those bumps, but they dont smell and no more puss:), the chewing has almost stopped alltogether, and the licking has cut down a ton, but this am she went through a long time of licking again… she has been scratching, im hoping no fleas, i dont see them, but its hard to see them on her… im so stressed re her n everything else..
     well im glad im not alone here thinking the brothers is working fast:), and you also give canned plus pro biotics also? daily?

  • Pattyvaughn

    I started being able to tell with my dog in just 2 weeks and his symptoms were very mild compared to Audrey’s, so I’m not suprised to know that you can already see a difference.  You’ll still see healing crisis here and there.  About once a week, I’ll notice Micah’s eyes will goop up or he’ll get itchy.  A coulpe days age, his ears just all of a sudden started waxing up like crazy.  Ears is the only issue I hadn’t had with him.  Well, I went ahead and cleaned his ears and he spent the next half hour rubbing and rolling all over the house.  When he stopped, he had no more ear issues and they haven’t waxed up again yet.  Last week, he washed his paws, no chewing, just an hour of licking.  He will not be itchy for days and then all of a sudden, he’s scratching like mad, then he needs a bath to remove the gunk that’s coming out through his skin.

  • debbie

     thank you patty sooo much:), ok, well i have 1 opened can of pumpkin in fridge that i have been keeping in a container with a lid, maybe half is left, and 1 more can in cabinet…ok so after this one in fridge im gonna stop giving it unless her bowel movements get  runny again:(… ok, now i get it re the canned food thank you, just so much info to take in here, all good of course… and i thank you all, and of course thank betsy n dave for all their food help, im just having alot of bad family issues going on now:(, and  went through so much with audrey being sick etc, and now well to find out i have major thyroid problems, and more going on re my health… just alot of bad that i dont need to tell the world about on here, lol
     but my health really has me upset right now.

      but please dont ever think that i dont appreciate all you all have done, as I do, and all my talking to shawna, you, betsy, tox just everyone.
     on top of that  i guess being x mas soon has me depressed, and my work for kids, finding out alot of bad:( very sad how kids are abused:(

      I wish I had a ton of $$$ to help all the children and animals, seems like there is always something bad going on:(
     I just need to keep my fingers crossed that she wont need to go to vet anytime soon, so far so good there, and I really feel its from the brothers food, what do you think? or is it to soon to tell?